Guest guest Report post Posted December 31, 2004 In a message dated 12/31/04 2:13:48 AM, lbb10 writes: P: What follows is a critique of sorts. This in general is excellent. And a high wire trickery act that only a skillful old pigeon could have performed. ) See more inane comments among the paragraph below. > >When the pointed to " Self-realization " happens there is all encompassing > silence and pure awareness without awareness or apperception. No words > can describe it. It is beyond mind and body. The mind/body is muted not > by an artificial self-contrivance of thought stopping but it is just > that way. There is no experiencer, no one is there. There is no > >conceptualization yet it is not empty. Everything is as it is. > > >What goes on in that silence? There is no answer. It is known by > .Effortless experience only. > > >The mind/body is where it is and sensations are engaged. The mind/body > avoids cars in the street, goes to work, eats, raises children, pays > bills, posts, creates stuff, does all those things as it has done > before. Demands are made upon the mind/body by other mind/bodies and > >interaction goes on as it did before. > > >There is no surface conceptualization, it is all done directly silently > without words. Everything is recognized as before and is plain, > ordinary, clear. A key is turned in a lock and the hands are observed as > if never seen before. The sounds in the street are all heard at once. > Things shimmer and melt. Time is absent, it is only on clocks faces and > digital screens. Nothing is important and nothing is impossible. When > action is required it is given. There is a fire burning something > inside... Old habits die away. New behavior arises...No thing is > >unacceptable, no thing is foreign, no thing is stable.... > P: Yes. A good description of symptoms which could come and go. It could be helpful to point out that the symptoms are not the sickness. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >So it goes for an enlightened one. Maybe not. Imagined? Perhaps. Perhaps > not. Does it matter? Yes it does. No it does not. There is no such thing > as enlightenment and there is such a thing as enlightenment. There is no > contradiction. There is contradiction. There is no answer. There is an > answer. There is no choice. There is a choice. All these can be when > they are needed to be so. They are words, concepts and can formed and > >used as needed to do whatever is required. > > >So the script can be rewritten? Yes or No, if it is allowed. > P: Yes. A chronic illness becomes the way life is. In a way normal, and only an illness if defined as such in contrast with the past. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > >People who talk about " Self-realization " are delusional. > Self-realization is fakery, a pretend state, a self-induced state of > silence. I am self-realized because I said to myself, " Hey is there any > >one inside my head but me and I got no other answer. I realized my self. > P: People who talk about it could be delusional, or could be using trickery, as people who talk against it, could be sincere in their ignorance, or using trickery. Buyer beware! > > >I know that my mind and body are tools that I use. My Daddy taught me > that. I made my mind silent by taking concepts, placing them carefully > in the machinery of my mind and testing it out until I achieved the > desired effect. Ideas such as all-encompassing silence and pure > awareness without awareness or apperception are nonsense. I know exactly > what I am doing. People who say no words can describe this silence are > simply avoiding answering questions and to preventing others from > >knowing how it was done. They is not neighborly. > P: True ) > > >The idea that making my mind silent is beyond mind and body is true > because I created it. Nobody else is in my mind, I am the only one at > home. I did it. My mind can do nothing without me. It is a stupid, > unconscious thing. It does whatever I tell it. Anyone can do this if > >they just tried. You can stop thoughts if you want. You can do it well > or poorly. It is all a matter of technique, self-manipulation. I can do > >anything I wish with my mind and body. > > >The idea that there is no experiencer is complete nonsense. I am here. I > am real as the sun that rises every morning. You can repeat that silly > mantra that there is no one home and that " you " and " I " are illusions > but let me tell you that you are making a fool out of yourself. And all > the illusion stuff that is talked about, here is the truth. You can > >create anything you want. It may be an illusion because it is just words > or ideas, but if you get people to believe it becomes real. Look at > money. A dollar, a renembi, a euro dollar, is worth next to nothing but > it is what people believe it to be worth that counts and the economies > of entire countries depend on such beliefs. So what is an illusion and > what is real depends on how many people believe it. The scientists > proved that there is one human race but it doesn't matter to the rest of > the human population. They see races very clearly and telling them that > >it ain't so does cut it. > P: Industrial grade trickery. Highly flammable. Handle with care! Yes, There is doing. Yes, there is a doer. But when you call it by a pronoun, or try to isolate it, it dissolves and expands into everything imaginable. > > >The notion that " there is no conceptualization yet it is not empty, " is > mumbo jumbo. Wake up. Is everything is as it is? My God, of course. If > you are reading this, what are you doing? Reading right? What do you > type with, a keyboard right? Everything is as it is. What is so special > >about a statement like that? > P: Yes. > > >What goes on in that silence? Nothing that I can reckon because When I > am silent that is what I am. Zero. Any one can know this with or without > >effort. > > > " The mind/body is where it is and sensations are engaged. " That > statement is an example of the famous passive voice and pronoun dropping > technique. This is how you get rid of " you " and " me. " Afraid of > pronouns, personal agency? It is a good way to wipe out the experiencer, > >me. Nice try. But no thanks. > > >Don't you think that I had better avoid cars in the street, go to work, > eat, raise children and pays bills if I have to, post to this forum, if > I want, creates stuff if I want after I get my mind into that silence. I > have to live, silence or not. Silence does not change anything. I have > to live and deal with the demands made upon me whether they be personal, > >impersonal or other. > P: Word Up! Hey! Yo! Hip! ) > > >Everyone has intuition so thinking about surface conceptualization or > not is nonsense. Before and after making my mind silent, changes nothing > about my knowledge of things even though after making the silence things > seem more plain, ordinary, and clear. If I want to pay attention to a > key that I turn in a lock and my hands as I do it, I can. What's the big > deal? Maybe I don't pay attention to stuff like that, but I can if I > want. Do I hear sounds in the street all at once? If I want to do so, I > can learn. Do things shimmer and melt? They do if I stare at them long > enough. Is time absent? No. When I cook a steak I watch the time. No > >sense getting all spaced out and ending up with char. > P: Right on, dude. Surf up! > > >There are priorities and you can call it making one thing important over > >another. I does not matter. It is just words. > > >I believe nothing is impossible for me, if I put in the required effort. > I do what I have to do. That is always the case. As for fires burning > inside, I do not have time to be looking for that, if it is there it is > there and if not, then that it is not. I can make my mind and body do > >whatever I want. They are my tools so I can make or break habits at will. > > >This last statement is a killer. " No thing is unacceptable, no thing is > foreign, no thing is stable. " What a load of elephant turd that is. > Someone trying to kill me, a knife in my chest, the sun rising throws > >that silliness right out the window..... > P: Well, I don't know about this last one. It's a mixed bag! True, there are things that has to be considered unacceptable at least provisionally. We don't have to accept things that can be changed. And then there are moral and social considerations: To say, murder is OK, is socially irresponsible, even for a jnani. But no thing is stable, not even what is called 'realization.' Realization can be conceived because there is delusion. One goes with the other. About a knife in the chest, it depends, people can remain very cool when in dire danger. Some get more nervous about a job interview, Fear is a hormonal response which is triggered by different things in different people. Great post, Lewis, thanks. Pete > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Which one of these scripts is the poster's? Neither. The poster at the > moment is a charm quark and these matters are of little concern to a > charm quark. But the quantum level what is suggested that it be written > and as it is known there is no choice in these matters whether one > chooses or does not choose. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
