the art of living in peace and harmony, in friendliness and love

October 19, 2002

" Meet your own self. Be with your own self, listen to it, obey it,

cherish it, keep it in mind ceaselessly. You need no other guide. As

long as your urge for truth affects your daily life, all is well with

you. Live your life without hurting anybody. Harmlessness is a most

powerful form of Yoga and it will take you speedily to you goal. This

is what I call nisarga yoga, the Natural Yoga. It is the art of living

in peace and harmony, in friendliness and love. the fruit of it is

happiness, uncaused and endless. " Nisargadatta

October 19, 2002

Hi Bill,

If you quoted what appears below for Anan and I, you

wasted your time. Anan and I are very kind to each

other. We try to help each other as much as we can,

and

we are in perfect harmony. Let me give you an example,

He said " I should clean the shit in my head. It

stinks. "

He's right it stinks to him, another might find it

helpful. Anan finds my scorn helpful that's why he

keeps asking for it. You see, he had this " whatever "

only 4 months ago. He's trying his wings, and he

picked on the second biggest bully around to do that.

I find his comments helpful. There is a problem

though. He said clean your shit! Shit keeps coming in

and there is no one to clean it. The janitor

quit long ago. So I guess shit is part of the program.

Bill, we are a communal teacher, each one of us teach

and learns here. The whole is always bigger than

its parts. Anan wants to be the lead singer, but we

are a chorus. No lead singer.

If this kind of exchange bothers you, I'm willing to

stop.

Pete

--- Bill Rishel <plexus wrote:

>

> " Meet your own self. Be with your own self, listen

> to it, obey it,

> cherish it, keep it in mind ceaselessly. You need

> no other guide. As

> long as your urge for truth affects your daily

> life, all is well with

> you. Live your life without hurting anybody.

> Harmlessness is a most

> powerful form of Yoga and it will take you

> speedily to you goal. This

> is what I call nisarga yoga, the Natural Yoga. It

> is the art of living

> in peace and harmony, in friendliness and love.

> the fruit of it is

> happiness, uncaused and endless. "

> Nisargadatta

>

October 19, 2002

Pete :

I dont wanna be lead singer at all. I dont even wann

be part of the chorus .This something that I had 4

months back is something no one but me will know and I

dunno whether it will benefit anybody one bit.

But Im sure that that something I had is what

everyone ( including me ) on this group is searching

for. And it's not like what I used to think about it

at all. It's like an answer to a question : How could

I ever have been Anand at all! With that thought,

something happened . After that I never could

associate with Anand, who functions on his own.

Hence I assume that lots of folks here are just as

disillusioned as I was ( Before the experience, I

would have given away my life just for a fleeting

glimpse of enlightenment !) and hence Im trying to

take the carrots away. That's all.

Everything you do and not do is apart from THAT.

There is no causality that will take you there. You

could do something , not do anything , it has nothing

to do with THAT.

I know I'm intentionally being very rude and coarse

in my mails but if you're self-realized , you

wouldn't give a damn anyway, if you're not, it might

help you a bit.

Namaste,

------

Anand.

PS: It's great that you're open to criticism , Pete.

It's perfectly natural telling me that Im a raving

lunatic.I woulda done the same around 4 months back to

anyone who claimed that he was in the same state as

Buddha is.

For eg, previously, Judy used to claim that she

was enlightened and I used to think " That's obviously

not true " . Now, Im not disbelieveing her one bit. If

she is, she is. Only she knows. Similarly only I know

if Im in that state or not. Be honest to none but

yourself. That's all there is to it.

--- pete seesaw <seesaw1us wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Hi Bill,

If you quoted what appears below for Anan and I,

you

wasted your time. Anan and I are very kind to each

other. We try to help each other as much as we

can,

and

we are in perfect harmony. Let me give you an

example,

He said & quot;I should clean the shit in my head.

It

stinks. & quot;

He's right it stinks to him, another might find it

helpful. Anan finds my scorn helpful that's why he

keeps asking for it. You see, he had this

& quot;whatever & quot;

only 4 months ago. He's trying his wings, and he

picked on the second biggest bully around to do that.

I find his comments helpful. There is a problem

though. He said clean your shit! Shit keeps coming

in

and there is no one to clean it. The janitor

quit long ago. So I guess shit is part of the

program.

Bill, we are a communal teacher, each one of us & nbsp;

teach

and learns here. The whole is always bigger than

its parts. Anan wants to be the lead singer, but

we

are a chorus. No lead singer.

If this kind of exchange bothers you, I'm willing

to

stop.

Pete

--- Bill Rishel & lt;plexus & gt;

wrote:

& gt;

& gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; & quot;Meet your own self. Be with

your own self, listen

& gt; to it, obey it,

& gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; cherish it, keep it in mind

ceaselessly. You need

& gt; no other guide. As

& gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; long as your urge for truth affects

your daily

& gt; life, all is well with

& gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; you. Live your life without hurting

anybody.

& gt; Harmlessness is a most

& gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; powerful form of Yoga and it will

take you

& gt; speedily to you goal. This

& gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; is what I call nisarga yoga, the

Natural Yoga. It

& gt; is the art of & nbsp; living

& gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; in peace and harmony, in friendliness

and love.

& gt; the fruit of & nbsp; & nbsp; it is

& gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; happiness, uncaused and

endless. & quot; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp;\

& nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp;

& gt; Nisargadatta

& gt; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp;

& gt;

& gt;

October 20, 2002

Pete,

What can I say?

Very nice message from you.

I'm afraid I don't really belong here (this list).

I don't feel comfortable.

You all can have it out. It just is not for me.

All I feel is love.

I feel a little sad, but not a lot.

I just don't belong.

Peace and Love,

Bill

pete seesaw [seesaw1us]

Saturday, October 19, 2002 2:26 PM

Nisargadatta

Re: the art of living in peace and harmony, in

friendliness and love

Hi Bill,

If you quoted what appears below for Anan and I, you

wasted your time. Anan and I are very kind to each

other. We try to help each other as much as we can,

and

we are in perfect harmony. Let me give you an example,

He said " I should clean the shit in my head. It

stinks. "

He's right it stinks to him, another might find it

helpful. Anan finds my scorn helpful that's why he

keeps asking for it. You see, he had this " whatever "

only 4 months ago. He's trying his wings, and he

picked on the second biggest bully around to do that.

I find his comments helpful. There is a problem

though. He said clean your shit! Shit keeps coming in

and there is no one to clean it. The janitor

quit long ago. So I guess shit is part of the program.

Bill, we are a communal teacher, each one of us teach

and learns here. The whole is always bigger than

its parts. Anan wants to be the lead singer, but we

are a chorus. No lead singer.

If this kind of exchange bothers you, I'm willing to

stop.

Pete

--- Bill Rishel <plexus wrote:

>

> " Meet your own self. Be with your own self, listen

> to it, obey it,

> cherish it, keep it in mind ceaselessly. You need

> no other guide. As

> long as your urge for truth affects your daily

> life, all is well with

> you. Live your life without hurting anybody.

> Harmlessness is a most

> powerful form of Yoga and it will take you

> speedily to you goal. This

> is what I call nisarga yoga, the Natural Yoga. It

> is the art of living

> in peace and harmony, in friendliness and love.

> the fruit of it is

> happiness, uncaused and endless. "

> Nisargadatta

>

October 20, 2002

Nisargadatta, " Bill Rishel " <plexus@x> wrote:

> Pete,

>

> What can I say?

> Very nice message from you.

>

> I'm afraid I don't really belong here (this list).

> I don't feel comfortable.

>

> You all can have it out. It just is not for me.

> All I feel is love.

>

> I feel a little sad, but not a lot.

> I just don't belong.

>

> Peace and Love,

> Bill

Hi Bill,

Where does love not belong?

Love,

Dan

October 20, 2002

Dear Dan,

I will let you know if/when it wears off.

Meanwhile, realize the illusion that you impose upon

yourself. Approach THAT directly, from your state

today.

------

Anand.

______________________

Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV.

visit http://in.tv.

October 20, 2002

The entertainment this lunatic's provided you is over.

Unsubscribing from this group.

Hope you all get where you want to get,

Sincerest wishest, apologies for the pain, disdain

caused.

-----

Anand.

--- dan330033 <dan330033 wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Nisargadatta, & quot;Bill Rishel & quot;

& lt;plexus@x & gt; wrote:

& gt; Pete,

& gt;

& gt; What can I say?

& gt; Very nice message from you.

& gt;

& gt; I'm afraid I don't really belong here (this

list).

& gt; I don't feel comfortable.

& gt;

& gt; You all can have it out. It just is not for

me.

& gt; All I feel is love.

& gt;

& gt; I feel a little sad, but not a lot.

& gt; I just don't belong.

& gt;

& gt; Peace and Love,

& gt; Bill

Hi Bill,

Where does love not belong?

Love,

Dan

</tt>

<td align=center><font size= " -1 "

color=#003399>

October 20, 2002

Ah, I see it hasn't worn off yet, Anand.

Courageous-stance-taking, That-experiencing,

confidence-building Anand.

Full of advice for people in states unlike

the state he thinks he's in.

How funny watching him play the guru,

after saying that to need no guru is

freedom.

A laugh it is, indeed!

And thanks for it!

Do you have a clue yet about the unreality

of the self-promoting stuff you're peddling?

-- Dan

Nisargadatta, Anand Eswaran <anandesw> wrote:

> Dear Dan,

>

> I will let you know if/when it wears off.

>

> Meanwhile, realize the illusion that you impose upon

> yourself. Approach THAT directly, from your state

> today.

>

> ------

> Anand.

>

____________________

__

> Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV.

> visit http://in.tv.

October 20, 2002

> dan330033 [dan330033]

> Nisargadatta, " Bill Rishel " <plexus@x> wrote:

> > Pete,

> >

> > What can I say?

> > Very nice message from you.

> >

> > I'm afraid I don't really belong here (this list).

> > I don't feel comfortable.

> >

> > You all can have it out. It just is not for me.

> > All I feel is love.

> >

> > I feel a little sad, but not a lot.

> > I just don't belong.

> >

> > Peace and Love,

> > Bill

> Hi Bill,

> Where does love not belong?

> Love,

> Dan

That is very beautiful Dan.

Of course there is no place that love

does not belong.

I will attempt to tell you why I feel out of place

here.

About 2 months ago I had a transforming experience.

I had been practicing " abiding in my heart " for a

few months. Then I had an overwhelming experience

in my heart as if two oceans merging. After that

experience I felt " no choice " . I can't describe it,

but since then there has been an unfolding livingness

always moving in my heart, a Divine Embrace, a

Rapture. Here is a description I wrote at the time:

A Sailor's Tale

I must speak my story.

I was touched. I was touched somewhere very deep.

I felt myself melting. And then an experience as

if two oceans merging. And I, a solitary sailor,

tilling his solitary raft on his solitary great,

great ocean; suddenly was I overwhelmed by the

effulgence of this coming together. Suddenly I had

no rudder, no raft, no endless horizon, no sky.

Suddenly I was overwhelmed, melted into a vast

rich, deep turning that poured into my heart. I

knew that my sailor days were over. I had no

choice. I was one with the depth.

And I was changed, changed, so changed. My

iniquities, so many more than I knew, came

flooding to the surface like rats fleeing a

flooding cellar. And by Her Grace, a sweet

flooding wave of Her Grace, my darknesses were

healed. And time and again, in moments of trial,

another darkness comes to the fore, another

blemish works to the surface, and each time Her

Grace sweeps my blemishes away, heals the wound in

my heart, clears the flaw in my mind.

And so this life goes on within me. A love welling

in me fills me, fills me, fills me.

So who I was is gone, and who this is I cannot

tell you.

I have been overcome by Sweet Grace. And her name?

Harken. I tell you truly. Her name is,

Essence of Love

In that moment, Dan, I went from jhana to bhakti.

I am living in Bhakti now. For me it is She, and

She is always Here in my heart, in living dance

so I don't know where She ends and I begin, or

where I end and She begins. I call it " twoness

without distinction " .

I expect this is all heresy for most on this list.

I've attempted to speak about Heart here, but I've

found no traction. I dare not speak of my Bhakti

experiences here.

I tried to encourage speaking with vulnerability

here. I asked that we not criticise others but rather

speak from our own experiences. To me courage is

to speak vulnerably from one's own experience.

But it is not what people on this list seem to want.

I've hung in here for a while, I think. I'm interested

in open, sensitive dialog. I am interested in speaking

from my heart, and hearing others speak from theirs.

This is hard for me. You and Pete in particular have

been beautiful and I've learned a lot.

But my heart is so open. And for me this place is

like a shooting gallery.

Please don't take this as a judgement. I'm happy

that Pete and Anand, for example, are enjoying their

lively exchange. I don't want to be a damper.

So do you see how I feel I don't belong?

Overwhelmed with feeling,

Bill

October 20, 2002

It's not you Anand.

You don't understand.

-Bill

Anand Eswaran [anandesw]

Saturday, October 19, 2002 4:32 PM

Nisargadatta

Re: Re: the art of living in peace and harmony,

in friendliness and love

The entertainment this lunatic's provided you is over.

Unsubscribing from this group.

Hope you all get where you want to get,

Sincerest wishest, apologies for the pain, disdain

caused.

-----

Anand.

--- dan330033 <dan330033 wrote:

<HR>

<tt>

Nisargadatta, & quot;Bill Rishel & quot;

& lt;plexus@x & gt; wrote:

& gt; Pete,

& gt;

& gt; What can I say?

& gt; Very nice message from you.

& gt;

& gt; I'm afraid I don't really belong here (this

list).

& gt; I don't feel comfortable.

& gt;

& gt; You all can have it out. It just is not for

me.

& gt; All I feel is love.

& gt;

& gt; I feel a little sad, but not a lot.

& gt; I just don't belong.

& gt;

& gt; Peace and Love,

& gt; Bill

Hi Bill,

Where does love not belong?

Love,

Dan

</tt>

<td align=center><font size= " -1 "

color=#003399>

October 20, 2002

Bill Rishel wrote:

>

> Pete,

>

> What can I say?

> Very nice message from you.

>

> I'm afraid I don't really belong here (this list).

> I don't feel comfortable.

>

> You all can have it out. It just is not for me.

> All I feel is love.

>

> I feel a little sad, but not a lot.

> I just don't belong.

>

> Peace and Love,

> Bill

>

I agree Bill

it's boring

what is there to defend

what about belonging

and feeling comfortable

there is a freestandingness

inherent in the love

you speak of

in which belonging and

comfort are not a

consideration

andrew

October 20, 2002

andrew,

Of course there is a free-standingness inherent

love. Past that I can't decipher what you are

saying. Perhaps you can put it more plain.

-Bill

andrew macnab [a.macnab]

I agree Bill

it's boring

what is there to defend

what about belonging

and feeling comfortable

there is a freestandingness

inherent in the love

you speak of

in which belonging and

comfort are not a

consideration

andrew

October 20, 2002

Now Bill, look here, what is this love of yours all

about? Love for yourself? Enjoyment of sweet gushy

feelings? If this love of yours is love for others,

and

you think there is no love here, then here is where

you belong to teach us about this love you found.

Unless you only want a quiet corner where to

masturbate in peace.

Love,

Pete

--- Bill Rishel <plexus wrote:

> It's not you Anand.

> You don't understand.

> -Bill

>

> Anand Eswaran [anandesw]

> Saturday, October 19, 2002 4:32 PM

> Nisargadatta

> Re: Re: the art of living in

> peace and harmony,

> in friendliness and love

>

> The entertainment this lunatic's provided you is

> over.

>

> Unsubscribing from this group.

>

> Hope you all get where you want to get,

>

> Sincerest wishest, apologies for the pain, disdain

> caused.

> -----

> Anand.

>

> --- dan330033 <dan330033 wrote:

> <HR>

> <html><body>

>

> <tt>

> Nisargadatta, & quot;Bill Rishel & quot;

> & lt;plexus@x & gt; wrote:

> & gt; Pete,

> & gt;

> & gt; What can I say?

> & gt; Very nice message from you.

> & gt;

> & gt; I'm afraid I don't really belong here (this

> list).

> & gt; I don't feel comfortable.

> & gt;

> & gt; You all can have it out. It just is not for

> me.

> & gt; All I feel is love.

> & gt;

> & gt; I feel a little sad, but not a lot.

> & gt; I just don't belong.

> & gt;

> & gt; Peace and Love,

> & gt; Bill

>

> Hi Bill,

>

> Where does love not belong?

>

> Love,

> Dan

>

> </tt>

>

>

>

>

>

> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>

> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>

> <td align=center><font size= " -1 "

> color=#003399>

> Sponsor</td>

> </tr>

> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>

> <td align=center width=470><TABLE WIDTH=300

> HEIGHT=250

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> size=-2>

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> <TD>

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>

href= " http://rd./M=212804.2460941.3878106.2273195/D=egroupweb/S=170

>

5077076:HM/A=810373/R=0/*http://geocities./ps/info?.refer=blrecs "

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>

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> WIDTH=185 HEIGHT=250 BORDER=0></a></TR></TD>

> <TD>

> <a

>

href= " http://rd./M=212804.2460941.3878106.2273195/D=egroupweb/S=170

>

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> WIDTH=115 HEIGHT=250 BORDER=0></TD>

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> <tr><td><img alt= " " width=1 height=1

>

src= " http://us.adserver./l?M=212804.2460941.3878106.2273195/D=egrou

> pmail/S=:HM/A=810373/rand=730076348 " ></td></tr>

> </table>

>

>

>

>

> <tt>

>

October 20, 2002

As always, you're beautiful Pete.

And I do hear you.

How can my heart not respond when your heart

speaks to me?

Love and Grace,

Bill

pete seesaw [seesaw1us]

Saturday, October 19, 2002 6:40 PM

Nisargadatta

RE: Re: the art of living in peace and harmony,

in friendliness and love

Now Bill, look here, what is this love of yours all

about? Love for yourself? Enjoyment of sweet gushy

feelings? If this love of yours is love for others,

and

you think there is no love here, then here is where

you belong to teach us about this love you found.

Unless you only want a quiet corner where to

masturbate in peace.

Love,

Pete

--- Bill Rishel <plexus wrote:

> It's not you Anand.

> You don't understand.

> -Bill

>

> Anand Eswaran [anandesw]

> Saturday, October 19, 2002 4:32 PM

> Nisargadatta

> Re: Re: the art of living in

> peace and harmony,

> in friendliness and love

>

> The entertainment this lunatic's provided you is

> over.

>

> Unsubscribing from this group.

>

> Hope you all get where you want to get,

>

> Sincerest wishest, apologies for the pain, disdain

> caused.

> -----

> Anand.

>

> --- dan330033 <dan330033 wrote:

> <HR>

> <html><body>

>

> <tt>

> Nisargadatta, & quot;Bill Rishel & quot;

> & lt;plexus@x & gt; wrote:

> & gt; Pete,

> & gt;

> & gt; What can I say?

> & gt; Very nice message from you.

> & gt;

> & gt; I'm afraid I don't really belong here (this

> list).

> & gt; I don't feel comfortable.

> & gt;

> & gt; You all can have it out. It just is not for

> me.

> & gt; All I feel is love.

> & gt;

> & gt; I feel a little sad, but not a lot.

> & gt; I just don't belong.

> & gt;

> & gt; Peace and Love,

> & gt; Bill

>

> Hi Bill,

>

> Where does love not belong?

>

> Love,

> Dan

>

> </tt>

>

>

>

>

>

> <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>

> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>

> <td align=center><font size= " -1 "

> color=#003399>

> Sponsor</td>

> </tr>

> <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>

> <td align=center width=470><TABLE WIDTH=300

> HEIGHT=250

> border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td

> align=center><font face=arial

> size=-2>

> <TR>

> <TD>

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>

href= " http://rd./M=212804.2460941.3878106.2273195/D=egroupweb/S=170

>

5077076:HM/A=810373/R=0/*http://geocities./ps/info?.refer=blrecs "

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>

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> WIDTH=185 HEIGHT=250 BORDER=0></a></TR></TD>

> <TD>

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>

href= " http://rd./M=212804.2460941.3878106.2273195/D=egroupweb/S=170

>

5077076:HM/A=810373/R=1/*http://geocities./ps/info?.refer=blrecs "

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> WIDTH=115 HEIGHT=250 BORDER=0></TD>

> </TR></a>

> </TABLE></td>

> </tr>

> <tr><td><img alt= " " width=1 height=1

>

src= " http://us.adserver./l?M=212804.2460941.3878106.2273195/D=egrou

> pmail/S=:HM/A=810373/rand=730076348 " ></td></tr>

> </table>

>

>

>

>

> <tt>

>

October 20, 2002

Nisargadatta, " Bill Rishel " <plexus@x> wrote:

> As always, you're beautiful Pete.

> And I do hear you.

> How can my heart not respond when your heart

> speaks to me?

>

> Love and Grace,

> Bill

>

> pete seesaw [seesaw1us]

> Saturday, October 19, 2002 6:40 PM

> Nisargadatta

> RE: Re: the art of living in peace and

harmony,

> in friendliness and love

>

> Now Bill, look here, what is this love of yours all

> about? Love for yourself? Enjoyment of sweet gushy

> feelings? If this love of yours is love for others,

> and

> you think there is no love here, then here is where

> you belong to teach us about this love you found.

> Unless you only want a quiet corner where to

> masturbate in peace.

>

> Love,

> Pete

>

> --- Bill Rishel <plexus@x...> wrote:

> > It's not you Anand.

> > You don't understand.

> > -Bill

> >

> > Anand Eswaran [anandesw]

> > Saturday, October 19, 2002 4:32 PM

> > Nisargadatta

> > Re: Re: the art of living in

> > peace and harmony,

> > in friendliness and love

> >

> > The entertainment this lunatic's provided you is

> > over.

> >

> > Unsubscribing from this group.

> >

> > Hope you all get where you want to get,

> >

> > Sincerest wishest, apologies for the pain, disdain

> > caused.

> > -----

> > Anand.

> >

> > --- dan330033 <dan330033> wrote:

> > <HR>

> > <html><body>

> >

> > <tt>

> > Nisargadatta, & quot;Bill Rishel & quot;

> > plexus@x wrote:

> > & gt; Pete,

> > & gt;

> > & gt; What can I say?

> > & gt; Very nice message from you.

> > & gt;

> > & gt; I'm afraid I don't really belong here (this

> > list).

> > & gt; I don't feel comfortable.

> > & gt;

> > & gt; You all can have it out. It just is not for

> > me.

> > & gt; All I feel is love.

> > & gt;

> > & gt; I feel a little sad, but not a lot.

> > & gt; I just don't belong.

> > & gt;

> > & gt; Peace and Love,

> > & gt; Bill

> >

> > Hi Bill,

> >

> > Where does love not belong?

> >

> > Love,

> > Dan

> >

> > </tt>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>

> > <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>

> > <td align=center><font size= " -1 "

> > color=#003399>

> > Sponsor</td>

> > </tr>

> > <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>

> > <td align=center width=470><TABLE WIDTH=300

> > HEIGHT=250

> > border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td

> > align=center><font face=arial

> > size=-2>

> > <TR>

> > <TD>

> > <a

> >

>

href= " http://rd./M=212804.2460941.3878106.2273195/D=egroupweb

/S=170

> >

>

5077076:HM/A=810373/R=0/*http://geocities./ps/info?.refer=blr

ecs "

> > target=_top><IMG

> >

>

SRC= " http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ya/_geocities/lrec2b_1_0

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> > WIDTH=185 HEIGHT=250 BORDER=0></a></TR></TD>

> > <TD>

> > <a

> >

>

href= " http://rd./M=212804.2460941.3878106.2273195/D=egroupweb

/S=170

> >

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> > target=_top><IMG

> >

>

SRC= " http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ya/_geocities/lrec2d_2_0

2.gif "

> > WIDTH=115 HEIGHT=250 BORDER=0></TD>

> > </TR></a>

> > </TABLE></td>

> > </tr>

> > <tr><td><img alt= " " width=1 height=1

> >

> src= " http://us.adserver./l?

M=212804.2460941.3878106.2273195/D=egrou

> > pmail/S=:HM/A=810373/rand=730076348 " ></td></tr>

> > </table>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > <tt>

> >

October 20, 2002

Anand,

> For eg, previously, Judy used to claim that she

> was enlightened and I used to think " That's obviously

> not true " . Now, Im not disbelieveing her one bit. If

> she is, she is. Only she knows. Similarly only I know

> if Im in that state or not. Be honest to none but

> yourself. That's all there is to it.

You say, " Only she knows, " and " only I know

if Im in that state or not. "

You have to allow for delusion. Someone may *think*

they know, but that is inherently delusion.

Also, any *state* one can be in is inherently one that

can be gone out of. So any profound change has not the

nature of " state " .

But the element of your comments above that I really

agree with is the tacit proposition you make that

" no one can know about anyone else. " In other words,

no one is in position to judge. Bravo.

Which seems to totally contradict your comment:

> Hence I assume that lots of folks here are just as

> disillusioned as I was ( Before the experience, I

> would have given away my life just for a fleeting

> glimpse of enlightenment !) and hence Im trying to

> take the carrots away. That's all.

My view is that you are in no position to assess

whatsoever how disillusioned anyone else is. And

no one has hired you to try to " straighten them out "

either.

Seems to me a wee tad presumptuous of you.

Any objection to mellowing out?

You say you had an " experience " . Was that by

Grace?

I know the feeling of wanting others to find

what I have found. It was Dan on this list that

helped me realize that I couldn't force that.

Don't you see? If the transformation is by Grace,

then each moment of bliss, each moment of oneness

is by Grace. It is *only* Grace. And if I am so

blessed as to happen to touch another heart, that

too is only by Grace.

Relax, Anand. Let Grace do it.

Peace and Love,

Bill

> Anand Eswaran [anandesw]

> Pete :

> I dont wanna be lead singer at all. I dont even wann

> be part of the chorus .This something that I had 4

> months back is something no one but me will know and I

> dunno whether it will benefit anybody one bit.

> But Im sure that that something I had is what

> everyone ( including me ) on this group is searching

> for. And it's not like what I used to think about it

> at all. It's like an answer to a question : How could

> I ever have been Anand at all! With that thought,

> something happened . After that I never could

> associate with Anand, who functions on his own.

>

> Hence I assume that lots of folks here are just as

> disillusioned as I was ( Before the experience, I

> would have given away my life just for a fleeting

> glimpse of enlightenment !) and hence Im trying to

> take the carrots away. That's all.

> Everything you do and not do is apart from THAT.

> There is no causality that will take you there. You

> could do something , not do anything , it has nothing

> to do with THAT.

> I know I'm intentionally being very rude and coarse

> in my mails but if you're self-realized , you

> wouldn't give a damn anyway, if you're not, it might

> help you a bit.

> Namaste,

> ------

> Anand.

> PS: It's great that you're open to criticism , Pete.

> It's perfectly natural telling me that Im a raving

> lunatic.I woulda done the same around 4 months back to

> anyone who claimed that he was in the same state as

> Buddha is.

>

> For eg, previously, Judy used to claim that she

> was enlightened and I used to think " That's obviously

> not true " . Now, Im not disbelieveing her one bit. If

> she is, she is. Only she knows. Similarly only I know

> if Im in that state or not. Be honest to none but

> yourself. That's all there is to it.

October 20, 2002

Bill,

I'm wondering about wanting to belong and feel comfortable

and what that has to do with the love you speak of.

Are they connected? If so, could the love be unconditional?

Is it true love?

Maybe there's no connection, and you're just expressing an aversion

to the oneupmanship and jockying for position you perceive on this list.

I certainly share that perception and aversion.

I'm questioning myself as much as I'm questioning you.

andrew

Bill Rishel wrote:

>

> andrew,

>

> Of course there is a free-standingness inherent

> love. Past that I can't decipher what you are

> saying. Perhaps you can put it more plain.

>

> -Bill

>

> andrew macnab [a.macnab]

>

> I agree Bill

> it's boring

> what is there to defend

> what about belonging

> and feeling comfortable

> there is a freestandingness

> inherent in the love

> you speak of

> in which belonging and

> comfort are not a

> consideration

>

> andrew

>

October 20, 2002

Nisargadatta, Anand Eswaran <anandesw> wrote:

> Pete :

>

> I dont wanna be lead singer at all. I dont even wann

> be part of the chorus .This something that I had 4

> months back is something no one but me will know and I

> dunno whether it will benefit anybody one bit.

>

> But Im sure that that something I had is what

> everyone ( including me ) on this group is searching

> for. And it's not like what I used to think about it

> at all. It's like an answer to a question : How could

> I ever have been Anand at all! With that thought,

> something happened . After that I never could

> associate with Anand, who functions on his own.

>

> Hence I assume that lots of folks here are just as

> disillusioned as I was ( Before the experience, I

> would have given away my life just for a fleeting

> glimpse of enlightenment !) and hence Im trying to

> take the carrots away. That's all.

>

> Everything you do and not do is apart from THAT.

> There is no causality that will take you there. You

> could do something , not do anything , it has nothing

> to do with THAT.

>

> I know I'm intentionally being very rude and coarse

> in my mails but if you're self-realized , you

> wouldn't give a damn anyway, if you're not, it might

> help you a bit.

>

> Namaste,

> ------

> Anand.

>

> PS: It's great that you're open to criticism , Pete.

> It's perfectly natural telling me that Im a raving

> lunatic.I woulda done the same around 4 months back to

> anyone who claimed that he was in the same state as

> Buddha is.

>

> For eg, previously, Judy used to claim that she

> was enlightened and I used to think " That's obviously

> not true " . Now, Im not disbelieveing her one bit. If

> she is, she is. Only she knows. Similarly only I know

> if Im in that state or not. Be honest to none but

> yourself. That's all there is to it.

>

the problem with judi is not that she

IS or is not, but her delusion that

she is the ONLY one realized.

karta

October 20, 2002

Nisargadatta, " Era " <group@s...> wrote:

> Nisargadatta, Anand Eswaran <anandesw> wrote:

> > Pete :

> >

> > I dont wanna be lead singer at all. I dont even wann

> > be part of the chorus .This something that I had 4

> > months back is something no one but me will know and I

> > dunno whether it will benefit anybody one bit.

> >

> > But Im sure that that something I had is what

> > everyone ( including me ) on this group is searching

> > for. And it's not like what I used to think about it

> > at all. It's like an answer to a question : How could

> > I ever have been Anand at all! With that thought,

> > something happened . After that I never could

> > associate with Anand, who functions on his own.

> >

> > Hence I assume that lots of folks here are just as

> > disillusioned as I was ( Before the experience, I

> > would have given away my life just for a fleeting

> > glimpse of enlightenment !) and hence Im trying to

> > take the carrots away. That's all.

> >

> > Everything you do and not do is apart from THAT.

> > There is no causality that will take you there. You

> > could do something , not do anything , it has nothing

> > to do with THAT.

> >

> > I know I'm intentionally being very rude and coarse

> > in my mails but if you're self-realized , you

> > wouldn't give a damn anyway, if you're not, it might

> > help you a bit.

> >

> > Namaste,

> > ------

> > Anand.

> >

> > PS: It's great that you're open to criticism , Pete.

> > It's perfectly natural telling me that Im a raving

> > lunatic.I woulda done the same around 4 months back to

> > anyone who claimed that he was in the same state as

> > Buddha is.

> >

> > For eg, previously, Judy used to claim that she

> > was enlightened and I used to think " That's obviously

> > not true " . Now, Im not disbelieveing her one bit. If

> > she is, she is. Only she knows. Similarly only I know

> > if Im in that state or not. Be honest to none but

> > yourself. That's all there is to it.

> >

>

> the problem with judi is not that she

> IS or is not, but her delusion that

> she is the ONLY one realized.

>

> karta

not to mention the main delusion that

there is no other way to *Realization*

but go through HER rock bottom state.. pondered on ad naseam

*****

October 20, 2002

Andrew,

Thank you for the clarification.

I said:

" I'm afraid I don't really belong here (this list).

I don't feel comfortable. "

It was referring not to a cozy sense of " belongingness "

but simply a question to myself as to whether

" I am a fit here " .

" Don't feel comfortable, " referred to a feeling of

not being comfortable being myself here.

The subject of this thread does say it for me:

" the art of living in peace and harmony,

in friendliness and love "

To me a list dedicated to Nisargadatta should

be pursuing just that. I'm not expecting perfection,

but am expecting a commitment to that value by

the core membership.

I am starting to feel some dialog emerging around

this topic. To me " real dialog " is the key to

real value on a list such as this. Perhaps

something of real value will emerge from this.

So I encourage you to hang in here for a bit to

see what happens. It is in times of crises that

true character shows itself.

-Bill

andrew macnab [a.macnab]

Bill,

I'm wondering about wanting to belong and feel comfortable

and what that has to do with the love you speak of.

Are they connected? If so, could the love be unconditional?

Is it true love?

Maybe there's no connection, and you're just expressing an aversion

to the oneupmanship and jockying for position you perceive on this list.

I certainly share that perception and aversion.

I'm questioning myself as much as I'm questioning you.

andrew

Bill Rishel wrote:

>

> andrew,

>

> Of course there is a free-standingness inherent

> love. Past that I can't decipher what you are

> saying. Perhaps you can put it more plain.

>

> -Bill

>

> andrew macnab [a.macnab]

>

> I agree Bill

> it's boring

> what is there to defend

> what about belonging

> and feeling comfortable

> there is a freestandingness

> inherent in the love

> you speak of

> in which belonging and

> comfort are not a

> consideration

>

> andrew

>

October 20, 2002

karta wrote:

> the problem with judi is not that she> IS or is not, but her delusion that >she is the ONLY one realized. ***** I never said that. In fact the first sentence on the ranch list description states that it's a list for realizers and mature humans who aspire to such realization.

>not to mention the main delusion that>there is no other way to *Realization*>but go through HER rock bottom state.. pondered on ad naseam*********** Here, a recent post from the ranch list.

And here's a little poem from Rumi too:

There is a secret medicineGiven only to those whoHurt so hard they can't hope.The hopers would feel slightedIf they knew.

********* Yes, well the point being is not to seek "God" or some "wonderful something, somewhere "else", which I might add is the epitome of stupidity, seeking something that's not even there! But rather SNAP OUT of that stupdity, that "hynosis" with something "else" and be smart and look to the reality of their "un- enlightened" situation and deal with that. Stay with the "hard facts" in other words, and don't be drifting off to never-never land in search of the Holy Grail. In other words, look to yourself and what you're doing, THERE you will find the CULPRIT! :-) The answer for all their problems. :-) JudiYes, I agree.Well-said, Judi -- very fine wine you're serving in this establishment.The intelligence to cut through denial, in other words.Whether that denial is based on having material things, great experiences, or spiritual ideas.Looking somewhere else, for someone else is stupidity.Couldn't agree more ...-- Dan

Judi

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm

October 20, 2002

Nisargadatta, Anand Eswaran <anandesw> wrote:

> The entertainment this lunatic's provided you is over.

>

> Unsubscribing from this group.

>

> Hope you all get where you want to get,

>

> Sincerest wishest, apologies for the pain, disdain

> caused.

> -----

> Anand.

When the actor takes off the facepaint,

and the attention from the crowd is gone,

he faces what he wasn't able to show.

And the crowd is gone from before

even the beginning -- there never was

any attention to be had -- no accolades

to be kept for a great performance --

Just what is to be faced, with no stance

to be taken, and no pose to be struck.

-- Dan

October 20, 2002

Hi again,

> not to mention the main delusion that

> there is no other way to *Realization*

> but go through HER rock bottom state.. pondered on ad naseam

My understanding of what Judi says is that the ego itself is nothing other than

an activity of suffering (the only cause and content of suffering in fact) and

that once this is understood the ego is transcended and there is realisation.

She emphasises the need to stay with and investigate oneself and one's activity

as ego, rather than finding solace or distraction in doing or becoming

(spiritual or otherwise). Her approach is a direct confrontation to the activity

that is ego and as such is usually challenging and often abrasive

(intentionally, I'm sure), but the core of what she says seems to resonate

perfectly with many of the classic non-dual teachings, at least as far as I can

tell.

Grant.

October 20, 2002

Hi Bill --

Snip

> I expect this is all heresy for most on this list.

> I've attempted to speak about Heart here, but I've

> found no traction. I dare not speak of my Bhakti

> experiences here.

Okay. I guess that's what's choicelessly arising

for you, then.

>

> I tried to encourage speaking with vulnerability

> here. I asked that we not criticise others but rather

> speak from our own experiences. To me courage is

> to speak vulnerably from one's own experience.

You sound dissatisfied with what you found here.

You sound like you've decided you're vulnerable and

others aren't.

I guess that what is choicelessly arising for you

from the heart is a sense of dissatisfaction with

the way others express themselves, and a sense of

vulnerability that you have which other's don't.

>

> But it is not what people on this list seem to want.

> I've hung in here for a while, I think. I'm interested

> in open, sensitive dialog. I am interested in speaking

> from my heart, and hearing others speak from theirs.

Yes, you're interested in a certain kind of dialogue.

I imagine such a dialogue is rewarding for you, you've

decided you won't have it here, and are moving on

elsewhere to get that quality of dialogue.

You don't want to hear criticism, as that doesn't

agree with your sense of vulnerability, and would

like a place where you feel safe to express

that vulnerability.

> This is hard for me. You and Pete in particular have

> been beautiful and I've learned a lot.

Glad to hear it.

> But my heart is so open. And for me this place is

> like a shooting gallery.

Take a look around at the noncyberspace world.

There is plenty of real shooting going on.

Will love withdraw from a cyberspace realm because

discord arises? How will such love fare in the

world of real knives and bullets?

I am asking these questions to address an issue, not

to suggest I know where is the right place for you

to be or not to be -- I don't know that.

> Please don't take this as a judgement. I'm happy

> that Pete and Anand, for example, are enjoying their

> lively exchange. I don't want to be a damper.

You have mentioned things like Ramana and revelation

and the heart, and so on.

Everything I've read and heard about Ramana involved

a pointing to a truth of no " other, " no " outside "

no " separable entities " ... If you are alive in

this experience of nonseparation, then whence is

the concern about being a damper between the

exchanges of other entities?

> So do you see how I feel I don't belong?

There is an " I " that imagines belonging or

not belonging --

and there is what could never be elsewhere,

which could never come or go.

There are the feelings of the " I " , positive

and negative about itself and others, and

there is that which couldn't have a feeling

about self or other.

The " I " can't enter into where there aren't

feelings or thoughts pertaining to a self

or an other.

> Overwhelmed with feeling,

> Bill

Bill -- I posit that realization of truth

is not dependent on feeling or thought,

nor decisions about coming or going.

Of course, as no separable choosing entity ever

arose anywhere, you will go where you go,

as I will go where I go,

Peace,

Dan

October 20, 2002

Dan,

Another way to look at this is that there

are tender hearts here. There is a fragility

to our humanness that is hard to face.

Is there a fear of being simply human that

I seem to sense on this list?

If " realization " is seen as an escape from

our humanness, then I say it is itself a

deluded notion.

Your poem is eloquent, but I don't think it

is the medicine for a heart that is wounded.

I hope I am wrong.

I think Anand has brought real value to this

list. I will be sorry to see him go. I think

he needs to hear that.

-Bill

dan330033 [dan330033]

Sunday, October 20, 2002 1:43 PM

Nisargadatta

Re: the art of living in peace and harmony, in

friendliness and love

Nisargadatta, Anand Eswaran <anandesw> wrote:

> The entertainment this lunatic's provided you is over.

>

> Unsubscribing from this group.

>

> Hope you all get where you want to get,

>

> Sincerest wishest, apologies for the pain, disdain

> caused.

> -----

> Anand.

When the actor takes off the facepaint,

and the attention from the crowd is gone,

he faces what he wasn't able to show.

And the crowd is gone from before

even the beginning -- there never was

any attention to be had -- no accolades

to be kept for a great performance --

Just what is to be faced, with no stance

to be taken, and no pose to be struck.

-- Dan

Sign In

the art of living in peace and harmony, in friendliness and love

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