Guest guest Report post Posted September 23, 2002 Hello Milind B I would suggest that most of those with a bent towards the scientific (scientists or not) feel that it is good 'scientifc' practice when making any kind of judgement to gather evidence before doing so, and as much of it from as many sources as possible. Your judgements on 'gurus' and the 'spiritual' do not seem to be based on very much evidence nor on much in the way of comitted, 'scientific', personal enquiry (ie beginning from an unbiased position and proceeding objectively). If I were a scientist I might well be minded to dismiss your judgements as spurious conjecture, and dismiss them out-of-hand. It would seem you have a case of the MORINS (More Research Is Needed). I suggest that further research might lead you to discover that there is, indeed, a close confluence between science and the spiritual, particularly as far as quantum mechanics is concerned. I would have to say as well that your assertion that Swamy is as much a Scientist as you are a Spiritual guru, your doubts about his status as a scientist and your theories about his contribution to science are again made on an extremely unscientific basis, and one that might seem to include unwarranted and potentially insulting projection. The conversations between Krishnamurti and David Bohm are a good place to start researching the interface between science and the spiritual if that is what you are interested in. New to this list folks, checking in and saying 'hi' to all. Grant. > ** Original Re: Digest Number 629 (to swamy) > ** Original Sender: Milind B <mcyberia > ** Original 21 Sep 2002 17:29:30 -0000 > ** Original Message follows... > > a) I started on swami vivekananda, but soon realized > that I would rather spend time counting sheep the rest > of my life. > b) I half-read vivekananda's biography and have > diagnosed him as a psychotic(specifically a > schizophreniac). His guru was similar, but was > precociously and extremely so, whereas vivekananda was > short-circuited forcefully as an adult. > c)albert einstein was not what I would term a > " spiritual " person. You are dis-informed. > d)You are as much Scientist as I am Spiritual Guru. I > think you are just another confused character, like > the majority of Indians, and who is right now facing a > late life identity crisis (woke up too late, and the > wrong side of the bed). I have grave doubts about your > calibre as a scientist. It is theoretically almost > impossible that you have made a contribution to > science. You do not understand science, how can you be > expected to contribute to it? > > I am reacting, but don't mean offense, really. The > self-concepts prevalent in the east are terribly > primitive, a mish-mash of primitive ideologies, > corresponding to its lack of understanding of nature. > > > > --- " S.V.SWAMY " <swamy wrote: > > Namaste, > > > > A riddle is not supposed to have a solution! It may > > at the most provoke our > > thinking, which is good. If it is solvable, it is > > not a riddle and only > > appeared to be a riddle because we couldn't think > > keenly enough! > > > > Consciousness is not an illusion if we are talking > > of Universal > > consciousness. Limited consciousness (the feeling of > > I, you etc.,) is an > > illusion. > > > > Think of a group of islands. They appear different > > and separate from each > > other. And what is separating them? Water. Suppose > > we are able to go to the > > sea floor and trace the same. Do we then see any > > separation of an island > > from another? No. We see a continuous sea floor. > > Each island is a > > projection of the land through the water. At the > > base, it is connected with > > all other islands. > > > > Similarly, our individual consciousness is but a > > limted projection of the > > Universal consciousness through Maya, Illusion. If > > we go deep enough in our > > consciousness, we realise that the apparent > > separateness is an illusion and > > that we all are connected. Karl Jung, the > > psychologist contemporary with > > Sigmund Freud, called it collective subconscious. > > The feeling of separation > > is an illusion, but with a definite purpose. > > > > The story which you presented was good in that it > > brought forth this > > discussion. Yes, we are self-aware. But the self, > > which we are thinking we > > are may still be limited. For example if I think I > > am a man, I am an > > Indian, I am a Scientist, I am intelligent etc., I > > am still limiting my > > awareness to that I. If we start pondering over that > > vital question " Who am > > I? " we can certainly progress further. > > > > About Free will, I will post later, a nice > > conversation which Sri Ramana > > Maharshi and his visitors had. I don't know whether > > that will be of inteest > > to other members of this group. So let us have their > > reactions or if this > > group is moderated, that of the moderator. If > > allowed, I will post it here, > > else, I will send you separately. > > > > Best wishes. > > > > Swamy SV > > > > > > At 10:50 20/09/02 -0000, hur wrote: > > > > Message: 5 > > Fri, 20 Sep 2002 03:57:11 -0000 > > " Hur Guler " <hurg > > Re: Digest Number 625 > > > > swamy, thanks for taking the time to tackle the > > question. when i > > thought of this riddle, i didn't have a solution in > > mind. the intent > > was to question the disturbing possibility that what > > > > if " consciousness " was an illusion or that what if > > some people lacked > > self-awareness. for example one of the > > controversial concepts in > > eastern spirituality is that there is " no doer " and > > hence " no free > > will. " we could have also functioned without > > self-awareness, like > > machines. could we be like the cloned prof who > > knows a lot about > > consciousness but what if we are not really > > self-aware? then how > > could we know? > > > > by the way, i do believe that we're self aware. the > > question that i > > raised is similar to...what if you were mentally > > ill. how would you > > know? the answer is...others would tell you but > > what if this > > condition was widespread. yes, i know i have a lot > > of time in my > > hands...or mind. > > > > hur > > > > Well how does actually know that one is mentally > > ill? It is all probably > > relative. In the land of the blind, a one-eyed man > > may be a king or may be > > treated as insane. Think it over! - Swamy > > > > > ---------- > > > > This is in response to Shri Milind's mail. > > > > Mr.Milind! > > > > Namaste! While wishing you all the best in your > > chosen career and life, I > > would like to point out to you that the very science > > which you are praising > > and which probably you are following to make a > > living/career, requires you > > to study a situation or person before you start > > making any evaluation! By > > studying a few micro situations, you can make > > generalisations (deduction > > followed by induction, verfied by deduction etc.) in > > a uniform universe > > limited by certain well defined conditions. > > Classical Physics for example > > takes that approach. However, in a statistical > > universe, while you can make > > generalisations, you can't predict the individual's > > behaviour. India, as > > you are aware is full of holy men and some are good, > > many are 'bad' in the > > sense they have taken that profession for their > > living. Here, only your > > individual experience can guide you. No > > generalisations. > > > > By the way I too am a scientist, 54, working in > > India for nearly 35 years > > in some frontier areas. I am not a 'sadhu or > > sanyasi'. > > > > Mr. Milind, I would like you to read Swamy > > Vivekananda's books. He > > certainly did not advocate idle spiritualism (the > > parasitic life which you > > are opposing) but put it beautifully: what west > > needs is less materialism > > and more spiritualism, what east needs is more > > materialism and less idling > > in the name of the spiritualism. Not exactly those > > words, but the gist of > > what I understood. > > > > We need what we lack. India needs young, energetic, > > practical people like > > you, who will bring science for the benefit of the > > common man. The west > > needs the sensitivtiy of the eastern spiritualism. > > The same science which > > is helping us fight diseases with wonderful > > antibiotics is producing > > bacterial warfare weaponry, the same science which > > gave nuclear power for > > electrical energy has given nuclear weapons. the > > same science which helped > > us control pests in agricultural crops gave chemical > > warfare weapons. > > > > So Mr.Milind, it is not just science which helps a > > civilisation to > > progress. It is science tempered with spirit which > > is needed. Albert > > Einstein, arguably one of the best scientists of the > > last century was also > > acknowledged as a very spiritual person. > > > > With warm regards and best wishes to you and similar > > young men of this > > generation, > > > > Swamy SV > > > > > > > > Message: 7 > > Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:56:07 -0700 (PDT) > > Milind B <mcyberia > > Re: Re: HI > > > > Well, I am sorry, but I did not research > > Nisargadatta > > specifically. I have no inclination to either. They > > are a dime a dozen. But I have made these > > conclusions > > looking at other such spiritual gurus, and I have > > done > > > === message truncated === > > > > > News - Today's headlines > http://news. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
