Guest guest Report post Posted June 29, 2001 Hmm..Funny what goes around comes around. Here is the latest update (I hope).Have fun.~daveAn Update on the Case of Adi Da Over the years I have made numerous very strong and sometimes contradictorystatements about Adi Da, mostly because he is a very strong and sometimescontradictory personality. In the Foreword I was asked to write to his bookScientific Proof of the Existence of God Will Soon Be Announced by the WhiteHouse!, I stated my opinion that Da was one of the greatest spiritualRealizers of all time, unparalleled in his grasp of many profound spiritualissues. Yet in "The Strange Case of Adi Da" (posted on this web site), Icalled attention to the fact that, even though Da might be highlyspiritually realized, he seemed to have several problematic, perhaps evenpathological, aspects to his personality and the way he was running hiscommunity. Yet again, in an open letter to his community (which was postedon the KW Forum), I again affirmed my belief in Da's great spiritualrealization. Contradictory? Perhaps, but only because Da is contradictory.Contradictory and problematic-deeply problematic.This is why, as a blanket statement, I can no longer-and do nolonger-recommend Da's community for the typical spiritual aspirant, and Ihave asked his community to cease using my name in this regard. Nonetheless,for those individuals who realize full well the extremely risky nature ofthe adventure, but who feel a strong pull toward complete and totalsurrender of their lives to a spiritual Master, I can certainly recommendAdi Da-with all the caveats of which I have written.The real difficulty of "the strange case of Adi Da" is that the guruprinciple is neither understood nor accepted by our culture, and thereforeanybody entering into Guru Theater does so at great, great risk. Added tothis is the fact that-as I mentioned in "The Strange Case of Adi Da" (andexplained at length in The Eye of Spirit-individuals can be at a relativelyhigh level in their spiritual development but at relatively low levels inother lines of their development, and this mixture can be very problematic.This is true for many, perhaps most, people, and I believe it is so with AdiDa as well.When I point this out, the typical response of members of Da's community hasbeen to point to faults in my own character-as if that had anything to dowith the faults in Da. I accept my faults and admit them. Let us hear Da andhis community do the same for Da.In the meantime, I affirm all of the extremes of my statements about Da: heis one of the greatest spiritual Realizers of all time, in my opinion, andyet other aspects of his personality lag far behind those extraordinaryheights. By all means look to him for utterly profound revelations,unequalled in many ways; yet step into his community at your own risk. Ken WilberAugust 28, 1998 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 29, 2001 Hi Dave -- These statements were given by Ken quite a while ago, wonder what he thinks now? ... Some perhaps opinionated comments, which seem logical to me, and which I submit for fun: An Update on the Case of Adi Da Over the years I have made numerous very strong and sometimes contradictory statements about Adi Da, mostly because he is a very strong and sometimes contradictory personality. This is called " an external locus of responsibility " ... In the Foreword I was asked to write to his book Scientific Proof of the Existence of God Will Soon Be Announced by the White House!, I stated my opinion that Da was one of the greatest spiritual Realizers of all time, unparalleled in his grasp of many profound spiritual issues. " unparalleled " is extreme opinion, in fact ... Yet in " The Strange Case of Adi Da " (posted on this web site), I called attention to the fact that, even though Da might be highly spiritually realized, The error of believing that there is a " he " who " gets realized " ... he seemed to have several problematic, perhaps even pathological, aspects to his personality and the way he was running his community. Realization is supposed to release attachment to personality and its issues ... Since pathology = attachment, how can this statement be squared with " may be highly spiritually realized " and " unparalleled grasp of profound issues " ? Yet again, in an open letter to his community (which was posted on the KW Forum), I again affirmed my belief in Da's great spiritual realization. Contradictory? Perhaps, but only because Da is contradictory. Again, externalizing the locus of responsibility. " What are my unresolved contradictions " would be the nonexternalized question that could be looked into. Contradictory and problematic-deeply problematic. Exactly. This is why, as a blanket statement, I can no longer-and do no longer-recommend Da's community for the typical spiritual aspirant, This perhaps is hedging one's bets, and by using the word " typical " obfuscates the issue -- a lack of clarity in the use of that word ... because of what value is being a " typical " aspirant anyway? and I have asked his community to cease using my name in this regard. Hedging bets ... Nonetheless, for those individuals who realize full well the extremely risky nature of the adventure, but who feel a strong pull toward complete and total surrender of their lives to a spiritual Master, I can certainly recommend Adi Da-with all the caveats of which I have written. Statements like this may reflect the result of externalizing the locus of responsibility and then trying to think clearly .... The real difficulty of " the strange case of Adi Da " is that the guru principle is neither understood nor accepted by our culture, and therefore anybody entering into Guru Theater does so at great, great risk. Again, this externalizes the contradiction, which is a great way to have temporary relief and avoid confusion and negativity -- but which in the long run can lead to other problems. Like, failing to examine risks that occur in other cultures, which aren't culturally dependent ... And if one thinks there haven't been misuses of the so-called guru-principle in India, one lacks knowledge of India's history. Although its true that their culture provides a basis for more discrimination and less naivite about gurus making claims. Added to this is the fact that-as I mentioned in " The Strange Case of Adi Da " (and explained at length in The Eye of Spirit-individuals can be at a relatively high level in their spiritual development but at relatively low levels in other lines of their development, and this mixture can be very problematic. This is true for many, perhaps most, people, and I believe it is so with Adi Da as well. This is called a " split " -- and if you take out concepts of spiritual versus material (a split apparently valid to Ken), what you're left with is just a person who is acting out in a split way ... When I point this out, the typical response of members of Da's community has been to point to faults in my own character- externalizing the responsibility (in the other direction) ... as if that had anything to do with the faults in Da. I accept my faults and admit them. Let us hear Da and his community do the same for Da. And lose " the Perfect Father " ? In the meantime, I affirm all of the extremes of my statements about Da: he is one of the greatest spiritual Realizers of all time, in my opinion, if acting out in split ways can be reflective of great spiritual realization, that is. perhaps what this shows is the difficulties of attributing realization to a realizer ... and yet other aspects of his personality lag far behind those extraordinary heights. notice the split here, and the separation of something called a 'personality' in which one portion of the person is assessed to be active and 'heights of realization', in which apparently another portion of the person's being is assessed as being active, or open, perhaps ... By all means look to him for utterly profound revelations, unequalled in many ways; yes, quite so ... but these have all been said before by others whom he read or studied with ... and then, when you read between the lines ... another message begins to appear ... yet step into his community and his mind ... at your own risk. Namaste, Dan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted June 29, 2001 - Daniel Berkow Nisargadatta Friday, June 29, 2001 2:27 PM Re: An Update The Case of Adi Da Hi Dave --These statements were given by Ken quite a while ago, wonder what he thinks now? ... Some perhaps opinionated comments, which seem logical to me, and which I submit for fun: Hi Dan, Right on..it seems what was happening between Ken and Da at that time was similar to what happens with couples after the divorce, after the (honey)moon is over and the sun is just about to rise, the dawn is about to disperse the twilight dreams, but still emotional attachment to aspects of the dream remains. I don't think Ken has truly got over that shock, but the reason why I posted his article here was that I felt other aspirants might learn a thing or two. Best ~dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 1, 2001 Hi Dave -- Yes -- I agree, thanks for the posts. Even one moment's attempt to move from " now " -- as in, I've got to get from this " now " to the " now " that the Guru embodies ... Involves the attempt to separate ... Often " unconscious " ... And it is this very movement that " we " do " now " , away from " now " ... that is where awareness dulls itself ... No guru can prevent us from what we are already involved in doing " now " , and if we are clear " now " about this matter, no guru or teaching (and no nonguru or nonteaching) is involved or needs be involved ... Namaste, Dan Right on..it seems what was happening between Ken and Da at that time was similar to what happens with couples after the divorce, after the (honey)moon is over and the sun is just about to rise, the dawn is about to disperse the twilight dreams, but still emotional attachment to aspects of the dream remains. I don't think Ken has truly got over that shock, but the reason why I posted his article here was that I felt other aspirants might learn a thing or two. Best ~dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 1, 2001 Dave wrote: > > Right on..it seems what was happening between Ken > and Da at that time was similar to what happens > with couples after the divorce, after the > (honey)moon is > over and the sun is just about to rise, the dawn > is about to > disperse the twilight dreams, but still emotional > attachment to aspects of the dream remains. > > I don't think Ken has truly got over that shock, > but the reason why I posted his article here was > that I felt other aspirants might learn > a thing or two. > ***** Ken was never a " devotee " of Da's. He's never even met the man. -- Happy Days, Judi http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm TheEndOfTheRopeRanch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 2, 2001 - " Judi " <judirhodes <Nisargadatta > Sunday, July 01, 2001 11:40 AM Re: Re: An Update The Case of Adi Da > > ***** > Ken was never a " devotee " of Da's. He's never even met the man. ...and that's why he was able to see through Da, to a significant extent. ...and do you mean " devotees'' or " fanatics " - Spiritual " fans " , not that I'm against the devotion business. ~dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 4, 2001 Nisargadatta, " D. Sirjue " <dsirju@n...> wrote: > > - > " Judi " <judirhodes@e...> > <Nisargadatta> > Sunday, July 01, 2001 11:40 AM > Re: Re: An Update The Case of Adi Da > > > > > > ***** > > Ken was never a " devotee " of Da's. He's never even met the man. > > ..and that's why he was able to see through Da, to > a significant extent. > ..and do you mean " devotees'' or " fanatics " - Spiritual " fans " , > not that I'm against the devotion business. > > ~dave ****** Hi Dave, I am in no way condoning Da's practices, but what I'm saying is, I went there to find out, I didn't stand at a distance, I put myself in " harms way " in other words, and I received none. I went there for a *hand out*, and he gave me one alright, he gave me himself. I met *the man* instead. Along similar lines, Ouspensky missed, he knew all the teachings, but he missed entirely, he missed Gurdjieff, the man. Judi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 4, 2001 judirhodes wrote: > > > > ****** > Hi Dave, > > I am in no way condoning Da's practices, but what I'm saying > is, I went there to find out, I didn't stand at a distance, I put > myself in " harms way " in other words, and I received none. > I went there for a *hand out*, and he gave me one alright, > he gave me himself. I met *the man* instead. > > Along similar lines, Ouspensky missed, he knew all the > teachings, but he missed entirely, he missed Gurdjieff, the man. > > Judi > ***** And interestingly enough, the day I met him, was the day he officially changed his name to " Da " , which means, the giver, or one who gives. That day, November, 1979, they call " The Day of the Heart " , and is still the communities biggest celebration day. Need I say more? -- Happy Days, Judi http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm TheEndOfTheRopeRanch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 4, 2001 - <judirhodes <Nisargadatta > Wednesday, July 04, 2001 12:11 PM Re: An Update The Case of Adi Da > Hi Dave, > > I am in no way condoning Da's practices, but what I'm saying > is, I went there to find out, I didn't stand at a distance, I put > myself in " harms way " in other words, and I received none. > I went there for a *hand out*, and he gave me one alright, > he gave me himself. I met *the man* instead. > > Along similar lines, Ouspensky missed, he knew all the > teachings, but he missed entirely, he missed Gurdjieff, the man. > > Judi Hi Judi! From your testimony you seemed to have had an excellent communion with *the man*. This is typical to those who thread the path of bhakti marga (devotional path). Good for you !. But from what I am reading, in many such schools, especially the Vaishnava's, the relationship between guru and chela degraded into sexual abuse (or as Da may term it 'tantric sex') and economic or other forms of exploitation. I sense that Vallabacharya one of the latter jagadgurus of that tradition recognized this tendency, but his remedial measures has turned out to be ineffective. In closing may I leave with this correspondence from Ken that summarizes with some of the issues raised here. ~dave Do I believe that Master Adi Da is the greatest Realizer of all time? I certainly believe He is the greatest living Realizer. Anything beyond that is sheer speculation. How could any of us judge? Who among us has met Gautama Buddha? Who has experienced Satang with Sri Ramana Maharshi? Who has lived in the company of Padmasambhava? I have sat in satsang with Master Adi Da, and with numerous other great Adepts, and my own opinion is that Master Aid Da is the living Sat-Guru. Beyond that, how could I say with any personal authority? If Da is the living Sat-Guru, then why did I say that I can no longer automatically recommend people to his Church? Only because, in this culture-where the guru principle is mightily feared and resisted, and where strategic legal and political forces are dedicated to its eradication-I cannot, as a blanket and public statement, recommend to people that they pursue that noble Path without also informing them of what a culturally and personally hazardous course it is indeed. Many people have made their way to Master Da because of my own writings. I am completely happy about that, and I hope I can continue that positive influence. At the same time, I have received an enormous amount of grief, from personal and professional quarters, for my endorsements. I do not regret those endorsements, nor do I retract them. But blanket, public statements of endorsement are simply no longer a diplomatic, intelligent, skillful way to steer people to Da. And therefore I have requested that the Community be selective and thoughtful in how they use my endorsements. But for those students who are ready, and who fully understand the gravity of the decision, I speak of Master Da as the Sat-Guru, and recommend that they pursue that Way to the extent that they are capable: student, disciple, devotee. And I have always said-and still say publicly-that not a single person can afford not to be at least a student of the Written Teaching. I affirm my own love and devotion to the living Sat-Guru, and I hope my work will continue to bring students to the Way of the Heart. I hope, as well, that the Community on the whole will take seriously a more gracious and graceful outreach program, and thus begin to reverse the powerfully negative images of the Master and His Community, images much more negative than they need to be, even in these God-forsaken times. I send my best wishes and love to the Community, and a deep bow to Master Adi Da. I hope to be able to get out to the Mountain of Attention in the near future and say hello, again, to many of you in person. Ken Wilber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 4, 2001 D. Sirjue wrote: > > - > <judirhodes > <Nisargadatta > > Wednesday, July 04, 2001 12:11 PM > Re: An Update The Case of Adi Da > > > Hi Dave, > > > > I am in no way condoning Da's practices, but what I'm saying > > is, I went there to find out, I didn't stand at a distance, I put > > myself in " harms way " in other words, and I received none. > > I went there for a *hand out*, and he gave me one alright, > > he gave me himself. I met *the man* instead. > > > > Along similar lines, Ouspensky missed, he knew all the > > teachings, but he missed entirely, he missed Gurdjieff, the man. > > > > Judi > > Hi Judi! > > >From your testimony you seemed to have had an excellent > communion with *the man*. This is typical to those > who thread the path of bhakti marga (devotional path). > Good for you !. **** Is there anything else? :-) > But from what I am reading, in many such schools, especially the > Vaishnava's, the relationship between guru and chela > degraded into sexual abuse (or as Da may term it 'tantric sex') > and economic or other forms of exploitation. > I sense that Vallabacharya one of the latter jagadgurus of that > tradition recognized this tendency, but his remedial measures > has turned out to be ineffective. > In closing may I leave with this correspondence from Ken > that summarizes with some of the issues raised here. > > > ~dave > > Do I believe that Master Adi Da is the greatest Realizer of all time? > I > certainly believe He is the greatest living Realizer. Anything beyond > that > is sheer speculation. How could any of us judge? Who among us has met > Gautama Buddha? Who has experienced Satang with Sri Ramana Maharshi? > Who has > lived in the company of Padmasambhava? I have sat in satsang with > Master Adi > Da, and with numerous other great Adepts, and my own opinion is that > Master > Aid Da is the living Sat-Guru. Beyond that, how could I say with any > personal authority? > > If Da is the living Sat-Guru, then why did I say that I can no longer > automatically recommend people to his Church? Only because, in this > culture-where the guru principle is mightily feared and resisted, and > where > strategic legal and political forces are dedicated to its > eradication-I > cannot, as a blanket and public statement, recommend to people that > they > pursue that noble Path without also informing them of what a > culturally and > personally hazardous course it is indeed. > > Many people have made their way to Master Da because of my own > writings. I > am completely happy about that, and I hope I can continue that > positive > influence. At the same time, I have received an enormous amount of > grief, > from personal and professional quarters, for my endorsements. I do not > regret those endorsements, nor do I retract them. But blanket, public > statements of endorsement are simply no longer a diplomatic, > intelligent, > skillful way to steer people to Da. And therefore I have requested > that the > Community be selective and thoughtful in how they use my endorsements. > > But for those students who are ready, and who fully understand the > gravity > of the decision, I speak of Master Da as the Sat-Guru, and recommend > that > they pursue that Way to the extent that they are capable: student, > disciple, > devotee. And I have always said-and still say publicly-that not a > single > person can afford not to be at least a student of the Written > Teaching. > > I affirm my own love and devotion to the living Sat-Guru, and I hope > my work > will continue to bring students to the Way of the Heart. I hope, as > well, > that the Community on the whole will take seriously a more gracious > and > graceful outreach program, and thus begin to reverse the powerfully > negative > images of the Master and His Community, images much more negative than > they > need to be, even in these God-forsaken times. > > I send my best wishes and love to the Community, and a deep bow to > Master > Adi Da. I hope to be able to get out to the Mountain of Attention in > the > near future and say hello, again, to many of you in person. > > Ken Wilber > ******* This is news to me. The last I knew, 1997,98, or thereabouts, Ken had never been up there, let alone met him. And I agree, Da is not for " beginners " , he has said so much himself. At least he has come out saying that lately. -- Happy Days, Judi http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/judi-1.htm TheEndOfTheRopeRanch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
