Fwd: Kapilaranya to California

December 25, 1999

Note: forwarded message attached.

_______

Get your free @ address at

Sri Prasanna Acharya,

My name is Sankaran and am living in Los Angeles, USA. Recently I had the

darshan of Swamiji Sri Sugunendra Theertha. Swamiji wanted me to send this

news item to you, for publishing in Suguna Digest. You can edit this in a

presentable form. The news item is from Kanchi Kamakoti Jagadguru Sri

Chandrasekarendra Sarasvathi's discourses collection.(Deivathin Kural Vol 1

in Tamil language).

Thanks

Regards,

Sankaran

******************

CALIFORNIA : This name is derived from the Sanskrit word KAPILARANYA

I am giving the Kanchi Acharya's words :

" You know that the Sagaras went on digging the earth down to the nether

world in search of their sacrificial horse. An ocean came into being in this

way and it was called sagara after the king Sagara.

The Sagaras, at last found the horse near the hermitage of Kapila Maharsi.

Thinking that he must be the man who had stolen the animal and hidden it in

the nether world they laid violent hands on him. Whereupon the sage reduced

them to ashes with a mere glance of his eye. Such is the story according to

the Ramayana. AMERICA, which is at the antipodes, may be taken to Pathala or

the nether world. Kapilaranya(the forest in which Kapila had his hermitage),

we may further take it, was situated there. It ia likely that Kapilaranya

changed to California in the same manner as Madurai is something altered to

" Marudai " . Also noteworthy is the fact that there is a Horse Island near

California as well as an Ash Island. "

December 27, 1999

Dear friends,

I am sorry to find totally incredible concepts being presented

to an audience considered to be perhaps highly intellectual -

such as this. Any body who has read the description of the

Pathala Loka and Sagara's children going there in search of the

horse for the horse sacrifice in the Puranas will find that by

even violent distortion of our imaginative powers, it will be

difficult to accept a story of this type.

I would only like to repeat that such concepts are essentially a

part of the old Flat earth concepts, which would be totally

unacceptable to any one who has flown round the globe to India

and back from US. When we meet with such stories in Puranas, the

cardinal principle should be to accept what the Pareekshitha

Prathyakasha (verified congnition) tells us and reinterpret the

Puranas so as to have Samanvaya with reality. Otherwise, one can

believe any thing!

Sorry for the plain speaking.

NAPSRao

December 27, 1999

Fellow Madhvas,

It is indeed utter nonsense to claim that california

is kapilaranya or whatever. This just goes to show what blind faith

will lead to. No wonder our kids are confused - on the one hand they

are told of our ancient heritage and on the other this kind of balderdash.

It will not be surprising at all if they conclude the whole business is

moronic.

Shri Kanekal

>Dear friends,

>I am sorry to find totally incredible concepts being presented

>to an audience considered to be perhaps highly intellectual -

>such as this. Any body who has read the description of the

>Pathala Loka and Sagara's children going there in search of the

>horse for the horse sacrifice in the Puranas will find that by

>even violent distortion of our imaginative powers, it will be

>difficult to accept a story of this type.

>I would only like to repeat that such concepts are essentially a

>part of the old Flat earth concepts, which would be totally

>unacceptable to any one who has flown round the globe to India

>and back from US. When we meet with such stories in Puranas, the

>cardinal principle should be to accept what the Pareekshitha

>Prathyakasha (verified congnition) tells us and reinterpret the

>Puranas so as to have Samanvaya with reality. Otherwise, one can

>believe any thing!

>Sorry for the plain speaking.

>NAPSRao

======================================================================

Shri Kanekal phone: (301)286-6517

Code 696 FAX : (301)286-1648

Goddard Space Flight Center

Greenbelt Road

Greenbelt, MD 20771

======================================================================

December 27, 1999

I request HH Sri Puthige Swamiji to discourage nonsensical articles from being

published

in Suguna Mala. I went through several issues of the magazine this year. The

amount of

irrelevent and often nonsensical articles is overwhelming. It would be better to

publish

the magazine bimonthly than to publish it every month and let every Tom, Dick

and Harry

fill the pages with nonsense. Some of the articles are so absurd and unrelated

that I am

tempted to . I don't have the magazines right here with me but one

issue

carried an article about beliefs in western countries and one example given was

that

Americans don't light three cigarrettes from a single match ! And that Russians

put a cat

in the cradle before putting the baby! It is very irritating to see such

unrelated stuff

being printed in Suguna Mala.

Suguna Mala should carry articles related mainly to Tattvavada. There is no harm

in

including sensible articles about issues related to Madhwa Community, Hindus,

astrology,

traditional cooking, etc. But junk and total nonsense should be avoided at any

cost.

-Nataraj

--- KANEKAL wrote:

>

> Fellow Madhvas,

> It is indeed utter nonsense to claim that california

> is kapilaranya or whatever. This just goes to show what blind faith

> will lead to. No wonder our kids are confused - on the one hand they

> are told of our ancient heritage and on the other this kind of balderdash.

> It will not be surprising at all if they conclude the whole business is

> moronic.

> Shri Kanekal

_______

Get your free @ address at

December 27, 1999

KANEKAL wrote:

> KANEKAL

>

> Fellow Madhvas,

> It is indeed utter nonsense to claim that california

> is kapilaranya or whatever. This just goes to show what blind faith

> will lead to. No wonder our kids are confused - on the one hand they

> are told of our ancient heritage and on the other this kind of balderdash.

> It will not be surprising at all if they conclude the whole business is

> moronic.

> Shri Kanekal

> >Dear friends,

> >I am sorry to find totally incredible concepts being presented

> >to an audience considered to be perhaps highly intellectual -

> >such as this. Any body who has read the description of the

> >Pathala Loka and Sagara's children going there in search of the

> >horse for the horse sacrifice in the Puranas will find that by

> >even violent distortion of our imaginative powers, it will be

> >difficult to accept a story of this type.

> >I would only like to repeat that such concepts are essentially a

> >part of the old Flat earth concepts, which would be totally

> >unacceptable to any one who has flown round the globe to India

> >and back from US. When we meet with such stories in Puranas, the

> >cardinal principle should be to accept what the Pareekshitha

> >Prathyakasha (verified congnition) tells us and reinterpret the

> >Puranas so as to have Samanvaya with reality. Otherwise, one can

> >believe any thing!

> >Sorry for the plain speaking.

> >NAPSRao

Dear KrishNabhaktas,

While I agree that there is no prathyaksha evidence that we can see that

agrees with the thesis presented here, I suggest that it behooves us to be

little bit more circumspect in our characterizations of such concepts.

Seemingly incorrect

geological concepts have been presented by many of our esteemed saints whom we

consider as aparoxaj~nanis (sri vAdirAja for example). I had argued in a

previous similar thread on the dvaita list with examples from

svApnavR^indAvanAkhyAna that the

languages of such passages may have a esoteric or mystical explanation that is

not obvious for us at this time.(Please search in dvaita site under vAdirAja or

svApnavR^indAvanAkhyAna for the details).

The worlds of pAthALa loka and other worlds described may or may not

correspond to any physical entities that we know now. We clearly don't know

about these worlds to say one way or another. But to take the next step and say

that these worlds

don't exist is a dangerous step. Just because we don't see these worlds, we

can't deny their existence. Then we have to deny the existence of vaikumTha and

Lord vishNu himself because we don't see them. Even if we say that vaikumTha

and vishNu are

described in the shrutis which are valid knowledge while the pAthALa and other

lokas are described in the purANAs which are lower in the scale of pramANa, we

need to find a rational explanations for those passsages in the purANAs.

vaishNava purAnAs

like bhagavatha and others come under sad shAstrAs which have similar concepts.

So, the best way to reconcile the passages is to say that these are astral

worlds which are not visible to naked eye. We can go into another discussion

about the

physical evidence for these astral worlds.

So, in summary, we can not say with pratyakha evidence that California is

kapilAranya. But we have to be careful before going to the next step and saying

the whole theory is false and seemingly incorrect geological concepts from these

saints are

just non-sense. Keep your mind open for other explanations that we don't know at

this time. Bear in mind that this does not refute the primacy of prathyaksha to

resolve the matters that can be resolved by our senses.

Hare srinivasa,

Regards,

Vasu

--

=================================

Vasu Murthy

vmurthy

==================================

December 28, 1999

!!! Sreehi !!!

!!! Sri Gurubhyo Namaha !!!

!!! Parama Gurubhyo Namaha !!!

!!! Srimadananda Teertha Gurubhyo Namaha !!!

!!! Bimbakriyaayaiva Kriyaavaan Aham Daasajeevaha !!!

Namaskaragalu!

E mahImandaladoliha guru |

shrI madAchAryara mathAnuga |

rA mahA vaishnavara vishnu pAdAbja madhukarara ||

stOmakAnamipe avaravara |

nAmagala nempElve bahuvidha |

yAma yAmangalali bodhisalemage sanmathiya ||

[Harikathamrutasara - Sandhi 32 - Padya 53]

!!! pramEya bhagagaLella upadEsha gamyavu !!!

I was going thru the archive on dvaita list and found a thread on Bhugola

Varnanam. People went to the extent of doubting Sri Vadirajara aparoksha,

leave alone accepting him as lAtavya chakravarthi bhAvIsamEraru.

I personally feel that with our limited knowledge, we should not try to

judge the works of Great Masters like Sri Vadirajaru, Sri Teekacharyaru, Sri

Vyasarajaru, Sri Raghavendra Teertharu & all mahA vaishnavaru.

As I quoted above, pramEya aspects are understood or visualized correctly

only thru Sri Guru sushrOsha & upadEsha. As many of u very well know that

vEdas have minimum of 3 meanings and depending upon each souls sAdhana, the

soul would understand them the way they have to be understood. So also is

the case with the works of all mahA jnanis. It is meaningless & dangerous to

comment on mahA jnanis or their work.

!!! geNu hejje mundAge nOru hejee hindAde !!!

Rather than moving forward in sAdhana by a single step, we move backwards by

almost 100 steps. TO SIMPLY PUT IT, WE WOULD BE MOVING AWAY FROM ALMIGHTY,

BIMBA, SRI HARI, the INDWELLER.

!!! bhakuta jana munde nEnavara hinde !!!

Sri Hari would tolerate something wrong said to Him, but would not tolerate

any apakAra done to His bhaktas.

So, as sAdhakAs, lets be careful not to commit mistakes & not to comment

adversely.

Let Sri Hari, the Indweller bestow on us the right jnana, bhakti & vairagya.

In Hari Guru Seva

Prasanna Krishna

>Vasu Murthy <vmurthy

>vmurthy

>KANEKAL

>CC: napsrao,

>Re: Fwd: Kapilaranya to California

>Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:43:32 -0500

>

>KANEKAL wrote:

>

> > KANEKAL

> >

> > Fellow Madhvas,

> > It is indeed utter nonsense to claim that california

> > is kapilaranya or whatever. This just goes to show what blind faith

> > will lead to. No wonder our kids are confused - on the one hand they

> > are told of our ancient heritage and on the other this kind of

>balderdash.

> > It will not be surprising at all if they conclude the whole business is

> > moronic.

> > Shri Kanekal

> > >Dear friends,

> > >I am sorry to find totally incredible concepts being presented

> > >to an audience considered to be perhaps highly intellectual -

> > >such as this. Any body who has read the description of the

> > >Pathala Loka and Sagara's children going there in search of the

> > >horse for the horse sacrifice in the Puranas will find that by

> > >even violent distortion of our imaginative powers, it will be

> > >difficult to accept a story of this type.

> > >I would only like to repeat that such concepts are essentially a

> > >part of the old Flat earth concepts, which would be totally

> > >unacceptable to any one who has flown round the globe to India

> > >and back from US. When we meet with such stories in Puranas, the

> > >cardinal principle should be to accept what the Pareekshitha

> > >Prathyakasha (verified congnition) tells us and reinterpret the

> > >Puranas so as to have Samanvaya with reality. Otherwise, one can

> > >believe any thing!

> > >Sorry for the plain speaking.

> > >NAPSRao

>

>Dear KrishNabhaktas,

>

> While I agree that there is no prathyaksha evidence that we can see

>that agrees with the thesis presented here, I suggest that it behooves us

>to be little bit more circumspect in our characterizations of such

>concepts. Seemingly incorrect

>geological concepts have been presented by many of our esteemed saints whom

>we consider as aparoxaj~nanis (sri vAdirAja for example). I had argued in a

>previous similar thread on the dvaita list with examples from

>svApnavR^indAvanAkhyAna that the

>languages of such passages may have a esoteric or mystical explanation that

>is not obvious for us at this time.(Please search in dvaita site under

>vAdirAja or svApnavR^indAvanAkhyAna for the details).

>

> The worlds of pAthALa loka and other worlds described may or may not

>correspond to any physical entities that we know now. We clearly don't

>know about these worlds to say one way or another. But to take the next

>step and say that these worlds

>don't exist is a dangerous step. Just because we don't see these worlds, we

>can't deny their existence. Then we have to deny the existence of

>vaikumTha and Lord vishNu himself because we don't see them. Even if we

>say that vaikumTha and vishNu are

>described in the shrutis which are valid knowledge while the pAthALa and

>other lokas are described in the purANAs which are lower in the scale of

>pramANa, we need to find a rational explanations for those passsages in the

>purANAs. vaishNava purAnAs

>like bhagavatha and others come under sad shAstrAs which have similar

>concepts. So, the best way to reconcile the passages is to say that these

>are astral worlds which are not visible to naked eye. We can go into

>another discussion about the

>physical evidence for these astral worlds.

>

> So, in summary, we can not say with pratyakha evidence that California

>is kapilAranya. But we have to be careful before going to the next step and

>saying the whole theory is false and seemingly incorrect geological

>concepts from these saints are

>just non-sense. Keep your mind open for other explanations that we don't

>know at this time. Bear in mind that this does not refute the primacy of

>prathyaksha to resolve the matters that can be resolved by our senses.

>

>Hare srinivasa,

> Regards,

> Vasu

>

>--

>=================================

>Vasu Murthy

>

>vmurthy

>

>==================================

>

>------

>nAham kartA hariH kartA tatpUjA karmachaakhilam.h|

>taThaapi matkR^itaa pUja tatprasaadhEna naanyaThaa|

>tadbhakti tadphalam.h mahyam.h tatprasaadaat.h punaH punaH |

>karmanyaasO harAvevam.h vishNOsthR^iptikaraH sadhA ||

>

> " I am not the doer, shri Hari is the doer, all the actions that I do are

>His worship. Even then, the worship I do is through His grace and not

>otherwise. That devotion and the fruits of the actions that come to me are

>due to His recurring grace "

>If one always practices to do actions with a dedicated spirit to Hari, in

>this way, it pleases Vishnu.

> --- Quoted by Sri madhvAchArya in GitA tAtparya

>

><< text3.html >>

December 28, 1999

Prasanna Krishna <krish_p

Tuesday, December 28, 1999 12:44 AM

> People went to the extent of doubting Sri Vadirajara aparoksha,

> leave alone accepting him as lAtavya chakravarthi bhAvIsamEraru.

Wow ! I think we are going off the tangent here. First of all this

statement of California being identified with Kapilaranya came from

Kanchi Acharya and not Sri Vadiraja or any Vedas or Upanishads or

even Puranas.

> I personally feel that with our limited knowledge, we should not try to

> judge the works of Great Masters like Sri Vadirajaru, Sri Teekacharyaru, Sri

> Vyasarajaru, Sri Raghavendra Teertharu & all mahA vaishnavaru.

Here the topic is " California is same as Kapilaranya " and not Bhugolavarnana.

The objections raised are for the former one and not the latter one.

> As I quoted above, pramEya aspects are understood or visualized correctly

> only thru Sri Guru sushrOsha & upadEsha. As many of u very well know that

> vEdas have minimum of 3 meanings and depending upon each souls sAdhana, the

> soul would understand them the way they have to be understood. So also is

> the case with the works of all mahA jnanis. It is meaningless & dangerous to

> comment on mahA jnanis or their work.

Fine. If any explanation is given by any of our Acharyas utilizing the

scriptures to show that " California is Kapilaranya " , I don't think any one

will have any objections. California is still in Bhuloka only and not in

Patala loka.

> !!! geNu hejje mundAge nOru hejee hindAde !!!

>

> Rather than moving forward in sAdhana by a single step, we move backwards by

> almost 100 steps. TO SIMPLY PUT IT, WE WOULD BE MOVING AWAY FROM ALMIGHTY,

> BIMBA, SRI HARI, the INDWELLER.

Sure ! If this kind of statements are taken (which are never told by Sri

Vadiraja or Sri Vyasaraya) forgranted, we will be moving backwards only.

> !!! bhakuta jana munde nEnavara hinde !!!

>

> Sri Hari would tolerate something wrong said to Him, but would not tolerate

> any apakAra done to His bhaktas.

How is the statement " California has nothing to do with Kapilaranya " is

apakara to Sri Hari's bhaktas ?

> So, as sAdhakAs, lets be careful not to commit mistakes & not to comment

> adversely.

> Let Sri Hari, the Indweller bestow on us the right jnana, bhakti & vairagya.

I fully agree. Let us be careful and separate wheat from the chaff.

> In Hari Guru Seva

> Prasanna Krishna

>

> >Vasu Murthy <vmurthy

> >

> > While I agree that there is no prathyaksha evidence that we can see

> >that agrees with the thesis presented here, I suggest that it behooves us

> >to be little bit more circumspect in our characterizations of such

> >concepts. Seemingly incorrect

> >geological concepts have been presented by many of our esteemed saints whom

> >we consider as aparoxaj~nanis (sri vAdirAja for example). I had argued in a

> >previous similar thread on the dvaita list with examples from

> >svApnavR^indAvanAkhyAna that the

> >languages of such passages may have a esoteric or mystical explanation that

> >is not obvious for us at this time.(Please search in dvaita site under

> >vAdirAja or svApnavR^indAvanAkhyAna for the details).

I believe the discussion here is whether " California is Kapilaranya " and

not the works of Sri Vadiraja. Certainly, he did not mention this.

> > The worlds of pAthALa loka and other worlds described may or may not

> >correspond to any physical entities that we know now. We clearly don't

> >know about these worlds to say one way or another. But to take the next

> >step and say that these worlds

> >don't exist is a dangerous step. Just because we don't see these worlds, we

> >can't deny their existence.

Again same thing. I think we are swerving from the main track. I don't think

any one is denying the existence of Patalaloka. In fact, the discussion here

is that California is not in Patalaloka (it is in Bhuloka only). Why link

Kapilaranya with California - just because of some common letters or just

for being an antipodal city to india. Horses are western cowboy favorite.

There may be many Horse islands. There is not only Ash Island, there can

be many towns like Ashbury, Ashtown and Ashland etc. This should not form

a basis for such conclusions.

>> Then we have to deny the existence of

> >vaikumTha and Lord vishNu himself because we don't see them. Even if we

> >say that vaikumTha and vishNu are

> >described in the shrutis which are valid knowledge while the pAthALa and

> >other lokas are described in the purANAs which are lower in the scale of

> >pramANa, we need to find a rational explanations for those passsages in the

> >purANAs.

It is unwarranted extrapolation to say that denying the identity of

California and Kapilaranya is denying the existence of Vaikuntha.

While one has no basis at all, the other has been discussed at

length in our scriptures.

>> vaishNava purAnAs

> >like bhagavatha and others come under sad shAstrAs which have similar

> >concepts. So, the best way to reconcile the passages is to say that these

> >are astral worlds which are not visible to naked eye. We can go into

> >another discussion about the

> >physical evidence for these astral worlds.

Even in puranas, there is no evidence or mention that California is

Kapilaranya.

> > So, in summary, we can not say with pratyakha evidence that California

> >is kapilAranya. But we have to be careful before going to the next step and

> >saying the whole theory is false and seemingly incorrect geological

> >concepts from these saints are

> >just non-sense. Keep your mind open for other explanations that we don't

> >know at this time. Bear in mind that this does not refute the primacy of

> >prathyaksha to resolve the matters that can be resolved by our senses.

I am very much at a loss as to why the saints of earlier times have been

dragged into this discussion. All, I see is that Kanchi Acharya said this.

The same Kanchi Acharya says " Aham BrahmAsmi " . Should we take that as a

valid statement as well ?

Regards,

Keshava Rao

> >Hare srinivasa,

> > Regards,

> > Vasu

December 28, 1999

Friends,

I am thankful to Mr. K T for having put the matter in proper

perspective. There are a couple of points I would like to add in

this regard.

1. One has to make a distinction between Valid Pramanas such as

the Vedas and Upanishaths, an the rest including Epics which are

subject to the following difficulties in interpretation -

extrapolation, conflict between each other needing

reinterpretation of certain passages, conflict with evidence

from other Pramanas, where the the latter are supreme, for

instance - the reality of the world cognised by Prathyaksha etc.

If we do not take care, we will end up either being too

credulous believing every thing that any body says - because he

claims his own authority for it or being hopelessly confused.

Acharya Madhva would never have said (as stated in

Sumadhvavijaya) that an unbiassed study of the Suthras and the

original valid texts like the Vedas and Upanishads does not

support the Advaita doctrines, if he had not asked all of us to

keep our minds open and intellects sharp, when studying

Shasthras. Even Sri Vedavyasa asks us to do Brahma Jijnasa

(defined as query, study and analysis with the help of logic),

instead of simply stating the final truth in ten sentences.

2. When ever there is real conflict between the reality as

determined by infallible evidence and the stories stated in

Puranas, we have to resort to Samanvaya that does no violence to

our intellectual honesty, if we want to call ourselves followers

of one of the greatest and most honest and consistent

philosophical systems in the world. Acharya Madhva himself never

leaves any question unanswered - and his comments are so nicely

elaborated by Sri Teekacharya and the other saints, that

studying their works is one of the most satisfying intellectual

tasks. If at any given moment we are unable to do so, we should

not bury the conflict by refusing to look at the facts and

preferring the Purana version blindly, specially when we do not

even have the authority to determine the correct vesrion.

3. Next comes the impossible kite flying types of statements -

such as by the Kanchi Seer, trying to read some thing more than

some simialirty into the sounds constituting the names

Kapilaranya and California. I personally feel that such efforts

should be laughed out of court rather tha waste the time of a

number of people trying to justify it. I agree with Mr. Nataraj

that an enlightened person like the Puthige Swamiji should not

raise the status of such junk for publishing in Sugunamala etc.

NAPSRao

December 28, 1999

napsrao wrote:

> napsrao <napsrao

>

> Friends,

> I am thankful to Mr. K T for having put the matter in proper

> perspective. There are a couple of points I would like to add in

> this regard.

> 1. One has to make a distinction between Valid Pramanas such as

> the Vedas and Upanishaths, an the rest including Epics which are

> subject to the following difficulties in interpretation -

> extrapolation, conflict between each other needing

> reinterpretation of certain passages, conflict with evidence

> from other Pramanas, where the the latter are supreme, for

> instance - the reality of the world cognised by Prathyaksha etc.

> If we do not take care, we will end up either being too

> credulous believing every thing that any body says - because he

> claims his own authority for it or being hopelessly confused.

> Acharya Madhva would never have said (as stated in

> Sumadhvavijaya) that an unbiassed study of the Suthras and the

> original valid texts like the Vedas and Upanishads does not

> support the Advaita doctrines, if he had not asked all of us to

> keep our minds open and intellects sharp, when studying

> Shasthras. Even Sri Vedavyasa asks us to do Brahma Jijnasa

> (defined as query, study and analysis with the help of logic),

> instead of simply stating the final truth in ten sentences.

> 2. When ever there is real conflict between the reality as

> determined by infallible evidence and the stories stated in

> Puranas, we have to resort to Samanvaya that does no violence to

> our intellectual honesty, if we want to call ourselves followers

> of one of the greatest and most honest and consistent

> philosophical systems in the world. Acharya Madhva himself never

> leaves any question unanswered - and his comments are so nicely

> elaborated by Sri Teekacharya and the other saints, that

> studying their works is one of the most satisfying intellectual

> tasks. If at any given moment we are unable to do so, we should

> not bury the conflict by refusing to look at the facts and

> preferring the Purana version blindly, specially when we do not

> even have the authority to determine the correct vesrion.

> 3. Next comes the impossible kite flying types of statements -

> such as by the Kanchi Seer, trying to read some thing more than

> some simialirty into the sounds constituting the names

> Kapilaranya and California. I personally feel that such efforts

> should be laughed out of court rather tha waste the time of a

> number of people trying to justify it. I agree with Mr. Nataraj

> that an enlightened person like the Puthige Swamiji should not

> raise the status of such junk for publishing in Sugunamala etc.

> NAPSRao

Friends,

Thanks to Sri NAPS Rao for arranging the discussion which was going all

around the map around these three points.

I will respond in the reverse order.

1. California vs. KapilAranya: Obviously nobody in this forum believes kanchi

swamiji's

statements as " Apta vAkya " . I was trying to say that presumably kanchi swamiji

has some kind

of pramANa from purANas or some other source for this theory. If there are such

pramANas, we should find out about them. So, let us get all the information

about this thesis on the table and then we can make our own minds on this.

Thesis does

sound frivolous, but let us get all the information before laughing it off. (On

a side note, does any one know about the etymology of the word " California " ? I

will try to find out. It may shed some interesting light.)

2. statements in purANas and other sources like " bhoogoLa varNnam of sri

vAdirAja " : From the references to the purANAs and incorrect geological

statements, I made the connection that there are other such statements in

purANas and other places.

There are also other similar statements by people like, sri vAdirAja swamiji

(whose words we tend to consider as " Apta vAkya " ) which contain incorrect

geological and cosmological information. Considering the primacy of pratyaksha,

we are left in a

dilemma, whether to consider these statements of such aproxa jnanis as wrong or

are there other explanations for them? I tend to believe the latter, but people

are free to make up their own minds. So far, I have not heard any acceptable way

to

explain these discrepancies.

3. Shastraic debates where valid sources of knowledge are very clearly defined:

There is no cause for doubt or confusion about what is the right way to do the

analysis and deductions as shri NAPS Rao has enunciated above.

Regards,

Vasu Murthy

--

=================================

Vasu Murthy

vmurthy

==================================

December 28, 1999

dear Vasu and fellow madhvas,

>SMTP% " vmurthy " 28-DEC-1999 15:47:34.70

>(On a side note, does any one know about the etymology of the word

> " California " ? I will try to find out. It may shed some interesting light.)

california was " discovered " by a spaniard/portugese Juan rodriquez Cabrillo

who presumably named the region. It is named after a spanish mythical adventure

story by Garci Ordonez de Montalvo called " Las Sergas de Esplanadian " where an

island ruled by amazons - California is mentioned.

regards,

Shri kanekal

======================================================================

Shri Kanekal phone: (301)286-6517

Code 696 FAX : (301)286-1648

Goddard Space Flight Center

Greenbelt Road

Greenbelt, MD 20771

======================================================================

December 28, 1999

>Nataraj BV <ntj3 (AT) xxxxx (DOT) xxxx

>Re: Fwd: Kapilaranya to California

>I request HH Sri Puthige Swamiji to discourage

nonsensical articles

from being published

>in Suguna Mala. I went through several issues of the

magazine this

year. The amount of

>irrelevent and often nonsensical articles is

overwhelming.

[chomp....]

>KANEKAL (AT) xxxxxx (DOT) xxxx.xxxx.xxx

>Re: Fwd: Kapilaranya to California

>It is indeed utter nonsense to claim that california

>is kapilaranya or whatever.

[chomp....]

Dear Nataraj,Kanekal

That kind of language is quite inappropriate for this

kind of a

religious platform.

U would well be advised not to use such caustic and

mordacious language

to express

your personal opinions.

" VidyA dadAti vinayam,.......

which means " A true education gives humility..... "

Before passing judgements on others, it is better to

gauge one's own

adhikAra.

It surely makes sense to examine the words of one's

seniors

more critically and understand them well, but

rejecting them on

ill-formed

grounds is hardly well advised.

All gurus from our Madhva sampradaya are to be

respected and thier

views.

Coming to Suguna Mala, It would have been better to

take up the issue

with Sri Swamji rather than express strong opinions in

a public forum

like VMS.

-Regards,

VRP

Talk to your friends online with Messenger.

http://messenger.

December 29, 1999

!!! Sreehi !!!

!!! Sri Gurubhyo Namaha !!!

!!! Parama Gurubhyo Namaha !!!

!!! Srimadananda Teertha Gurubhyo Namaha !!!

!!! Bimbakriyaayaiva Kriyaavaan Aham Daasajeevaha !!!

Namaskaragalu!

E mahImandaladoliha guru |

shrI madAchAryara mathAnuga |

rA mahA vaishnavara vishnu pAdAbja madhukarara ||

stOmakAnamipe avaravara |

nAmagala nempElve bahuvidha |

yAma yAmangalali bodhisalemage sanmathiya ||

[Harikathamrutasara - Sandhi 32 - Padya 53]

Sri Keshava Rayare!

Namaskaragalu!

You chopped off my first statement

" I was going thru the archive on dvaita list and found a thread on

Bhugola Varnanam " .

You started off commenting from my second statement

" People went to the extent of doubting

Sri Vadirajara aparoksha, leave alone accepting him as

lAtavya chakravarthi bhAvIsamEraru " .

As I already said, when I was referring to archive at dvaita list, I found a

discussion thread on Bhugola Varnanam wherein the following statements from

my previous mail were mentioned. Its true that I retained the subject of

" Kapilaranya to California " for the following reasons.

If I had confused u all, then I am sorry. Since the topic has come up

again, I thought, I would clarify some aspects.

The discussion started last time due to a statement made by one of the

followers of ISCKON. It started off with the condemnation of that person

and his tattva and went to the extent of DENYING SRI VADIRAJARA

APAROKSHATVA. THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN.

B'cos of this, I just wanted to make sure that let not sAdhakAs comment

adversely on any of the mahA jnanis. In a zeal to deny

the statements made by Swamiji of Sri Shankaracharya Mutt, if the discussion

leads in commenting the validity of Sri Vadirajara bhUlOka varNana or any

related aspect, it is not a correct thing.

I am not supporting any Advaitin. If it has given u such an impression,

please excuse me.

In Hari Guru Seva

Prasanna Krishna

> " Keshava Tadipatri " <meerakesav

>< >

>Re: Fwd: Kapilaranya to California

>Tue, 28 Dec 1999 01:16:02 -0500

>

>Prasanna Krishna <krish_p

>Tuesday, December 28, 1999 12:44 AM

>

> > People went to the extent of doubting Sri Vadirajara aparoksha,

> > leave alone accepting him as lAtavya chakravarthi bhAvIsamEraru.

>

>Wow ! I think we are going off the tangent here. First of all this

>statement of California being identified with Kapilaranya came from

>Kanchi Acharya and not Sri Vadiraja or any Vedas or Upanishads or

>even Puranas.

>

> > I personally feel that with our limited knowledge, we should not try to

> > judge the works of Great Masters like Sri Vadirajaru, Sri Teekacharyaru,

>Sri

> > Vyasarajaru, Sri Raghavendra Teertharu & all mahA vaishnavaru.

>

>Here the topic is " California is same as Kapilaranya " and not

>Bhugolavarnana.

>The objections raised are for the former one and not the latter one.

>

> > As I quoted above, pramEya aspects are understood or visualized

>correctly

> > only thru Sri Guru sushrOsha & upadEsha. As many of u very well know

>that

> > vEdas have minimum of 3 meanings and depending upon each souls sAdhana,

>the

> > soul would understand them the way they have to be understood. So also

>is

> > the case with the works of all mahA jnanis. It is meaningless &

>dangerous to

> > comment on mahA jnanis or their work.

>

>Fine. If any explanation is given by any of our Acharyas utilizing the

>scriptures to show that " California is Kapilaranya " , I don't think any one

>will have any objections. California is still in Bhuloka only and not in

>Patala loka.

>

> > !!! geNu hejje mundAge nOru hejee hindAde !!!

> >

> > Rather than moving forward in sAdhana by a single step, we move

>backwards by

> > almost 100 steps. TO SIMPLY PUT IT, WE WOULD BE MOVING AWAY FROM

>ALMIGHTY,

> > BIMBA, SRI HARI, the INDWELLER.

>

>Sure ! If this kind of statements are taken (which are never told by Sri

>Vadiraja or Sri Vyasaraya) forgranted, we will be moving backwards only.

>

> > !!! bhakuta jana munde nEnavara hinde !!!

> >

> > Sri Hari would tolerate something wrong said to Him, but would not

>tolerate

> > any apakAra done to His bhaktas.

>

>How is the statement " California has nothing to do with Kapilaranya " is

>apakara to Sri Hari's bhaktas ?

>

> > So, as sAdhakAs, lets be careful not to commit mistakes & not to comment

> > adversely.

> > Let Sri Hari, the Indweller bestow on us the right jnana, bhakti &

>vairagya.

>

>I fully agree. Let us be careful and separate wheat from the chaff.

>

> > In Hari Guru Seva

> > Prasanna Krishna

> >

> > >Vasu Murthy <vmurthy

> > >

> > > While I agree that there is no prathyaksha evidence that we can see

> > >that agrees with the thesis presented here, I suggest that it behooves

>us

> > >to be little bit more circumspect in our characterizations of such

> > >concepts. Seemingly incorrect

> > >geological concepts have been presented by many of our esteemed saints

>whom

> > >we consider as aparoxaj~nanis (sri vAdirAja for example). I had argued

>in a

> > >previous similar thread on the dvaita list with examples from

> > >svApnavR^indAvanAkhyAna that the

> > >languages of such passages may have a esoteric or mystical explanation

>that

> > >is not obvious for us at this time.(Please search in dvaita site under

> > >vAdirAja or svApnavR^indAvanAkhyAna for the details).

>

>I believe the discussion here is whether " California is Kapilaranya " and

>not the works of Sri Vadiraja. Certainly, he did not mention this.

>

> > > The worlds of pAthALa loka and other worlds described may or may

>not

> > >correspond to any physical entities that we know now. We clearly don't

> > >know about these worlds to say one way or another. But to take the next

> > >step and say that these worlds

> > >don't exist is a dangerous step. Just because we don't see these

>worlds, we

> > >can't deny their existence.

>

>Again same thing. I think we are swerving from the main track. I don't

>think

>any one is denying the existence of Patalaloka. In fact, the discussion

>here

>is that California is not in Patalaloka (it is in Bhuloka only). Why link

>Kapilaranya with California - just because of some common letters or just

>for being an antipodal city to india. Horses are western cowboy favorite.

>There may be many Horse islands. There is not only Ash Island, there can

>be many towns like Ashbury, Ashtown and Ashland etc. This should not form

>a basis for such conclusions.

>

> >> Then we have to deny the existence of

> > >vaikumTha and Lord vishNu himself because we don't see them. Even if

>we

> > >say that vaikumTha and vishNu are

> > >described in the shrutis which are valid knowledge while the pAthALa

>and

> > >other lokas are described in the purANAs which are lower in the scale

>of

> > >pramANa, we need to find a rational explanations for those passsages in

>the

> > >purANAs.

>

>It is unwarranted extrapolation to say that denying the identity of

>California and Kapilaranya is denying the existence of Vaikuntha.

>While one has no basis at all, the other has been discussed at

>length in our scriptures.

>

> >> vaishNava purAnAs

> > >like bhagavatha and others come under sad shAstrAs which have similar

> > >concepts. So, the best way to reconcile the passages is to say that

>these

> > >are astral worlds which are not visible to naked eye. We can go into

> > >another discussion about the

> > >physical evidence for these astral worlds.

>

>Even in puranas, there is no evidence or mention that California is

>Kapilaranya.

>

> > > So, in summary, we can not say with pratyakha evidence that

>California

> > >is kapilAranya. But we have to be careful before going to the next step

>and

> > >saying the whole theory is false and seemingly incorrect geological

> > >concepts from these saints are

> > >just non-sense. Keep your mind open for other explanations that we

>don't

> > >know at this time. Bear in mind that this does not refute the primacy

>of

> > >prathyaksha to resolve the matters that can be resolved by our senses.

>

>I am very much at a loss as to why the saints of earlier times have been

>dragged into this discussion. All, I see is that Kanchi Acharya said this.

>The same Kanchi Acharya says " Aham BrahmAsmi " . Should we take that as a

>valid statement as well ?

>

>Regards,

>Keshava Rao

>

> > >Hare srinivasa,

> > > Regards,

> > > Vasu

>

>------

>nAham kartA hariH kartA tatpUjA karmachaakhilam.h|

>taThaapi matkR^itaa pUja tatprasaadhEna naanyaThaa|

>tadbhakti tadphalam.h mahyam.h tatprasaadaat.h punaH punaH |

>karmanyaasO harAvevam.h vishNOsthR^iptikaraH sadhA ||

>

> " I am not the doer, shri Hari is the doer, all the actions that I do are

>His worship. Even then, the worship I do is through His grace and not

>otherwise. That devotion and the fruits of the actions that come to me are

>due to His recurring grace "

>If one always practices to do actions with a dedicated spirit to Hari, in

>this way, it pleases Vishnu.

> --- Quoted by Sri madhvAchArya in GitA tAtparya

>

><< text3.html >>

December 29, 1999

On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:28:21 -0800 (PST) Raghavendra Prasanna Vasudeva

<v_r_p writes:

> Raghavendra Prasanna Vasudeva <v_r_p

>

> >Nataraj BV <ntj3 (AT) xxxxx (DOT) xxxx

> >Re: Fwd: Kapilaranya to California

> >I request HH Sri Puthige Swamiji to discourage

> nonsensical articles

> from being published

> >in Suguna Mala. I went through several issues of the

> magazine this

> year. The amount of

> >irrelevent and often nonsensical articles is

> overwhelming.

> [chomp....]

>

> >KANEKAL (AT) xxxxxx (DOT) xxxx.xxxx.xxx

> >Re: Fwd: Kapilaranya to California

> >It is indeed utter nonsense to claim that california

> >is kapilaranya or whatever.

> [chomp....]

>

> Dear Nataraj,Kanekal

>

> That kind of language is quite inappropriate for this

> kind of a

> religious platform.

> U would well be advised not to use such caustic and

> mordacious language

> to express

> your personal opinions.

>

> " VidyA dadAti vinayam,.......

> which means " A true education gives humility..... "

>

> Before passing judgements on others, it is better to

> gauge one's own

> adhikAra.

> It surely makes sense to examine the words of one's

> seniors

> more critically and understand them well, but

> rejecting them on

> ill-formed

> grounds is hardly well advised.

> All gurus from our Madhva sampradaya are to be

> respected and thier

> views.

=========================================================================

======

[nataraj] I do have respect for all Madhwa Guru-s and peetadipathi-s and

that's why I am requesting that misleading articles should not be printed

in a magazine dedicated to spreading Srimad Acharya's Tattvavada. What

is wrong my request? I probably should have sent my request privately.

Since it is already public, let me explain my position.

Recently, there was an article by someone about Siddhi Samadhi Yoga as

taught by Rishi Prabhakar and how beneficial it is and why everyone

should practice it. To the best of my knowledge, this Rishi Prabhakar is

an advaiti and as you know, an advaitin's meditation pays no attention to

Lord Visnu. Advaitic meditation asks you to concentrate on the " self " or

some candle light and achieve Brahmananda. The article says that after

going through the Siddhi Samadhi Yoga, a man becomes like purified Gold.

This article has nothing to do with madhwa sampradaya, madhwa gurus or

their teachings. On the contrary, it indirectly promotes mayavada. It

would be foolish of anyone to pay thousands of rupees to someone to learn

how to concentrate on candle light and discover the " self " and " merge "

with the " Brahman " .

Why even publish mayavadic articles in a mAdhwa magazine? Should mAdhwa-s

take lessons on Siddhi Samadhi Yoga ?

I have also seen several articles which praise Ramakrishna Paramahamsa.

When I went to visit my sister in India, I saw pictures of Ramakrishna

and Vivekananda hanging on the wall. I got mad and told her to throw away

those pictures immediately and when she asked why, I gave a small lecture

on mAdhwa sidhAnta and mAyAvada. [FYI, We are not born mAdhwas] She was

satisfied with what I said and got rid of the pictures. I also asked her

to to Tattvavada and Sugunamala to learn more about mAdhwa

Sidhanta. She did. However, she was getting confused seeing articles

about Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. On the one hand, she was told by me to get

rid of those pictures of Ramakrishna who is a mAyAvadi. On the other,

she sees favourable articles about Ramakrishna in a mAdhwa magazine !

Should mAdhwa-s worship Ramakrishna Paramahamsa also as one of the holy

guru-s?

Talking of junk science, there was an article about finding one's future

using the pendulum technique. There was another article on how all

diseases can be cured by a technique known as " oil pulling " (gargling

with vegetable oil untill you get tired and spitting it out). I am not

going to talk about these articles in detail but such articles mislead

people and moreover, they have nothing to do with philosophy.

Of course, there are excellent articles by Sri Bannanje, Sri Sagri and

others and I don't like to see such articles being printed next to

articles which praise Siddhi samadhi yoga, transcendental meditation or

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa.

I am sorry if I sounded disrespectful. I sincerely request Swamiji to

forgive me. But I have to request him once again that in order to

maintain Sugunamala's credibility, misleading articles especially those

which support mAyAvada, should not be published.

Regards

-Nataraj

>

> -Regards,

> VRP

December 29, 1999

Nataraj,

You are a Madhwa extremist and very narrow minded

person. You better stop spoiling others mind too.

You don't know the scope of the 'Suguna Maala' and you

are not the person to define what should be there and

what should not be there in Suguna Maala.

First of all VMS mailing list is not the right

platform to critisize or comment on Suguna Maala. If

you need more clarification, you should directly write

to Suguna Maala Publisher.

I request VMS mailing list coordinator to scrutinize

mails before publishing. Otherwise, narrowminded

people will continue their dirty attitude.

It is surprising to me that why you have brought the

irrelevant matter of asking your sister to throw away

photos of Swami Vivekananda or Ramakrishna Parama

Hansa? Hating non-madhwa leaders and spreading the

hatredness everywhere is not the message of Madhwa

Philosophy.

Have you not studied lot of things from Non-Madhwa

teachers in your school ?

I came to know that you are studying in a University

in the United States. Are you not reading books

authored by Non-Madhwa scientists or scholars?

Don't waste your time in writing foolish and junk

things and don't show your narrowmindedness in this

mailing list. It is better if you unsuscribe for the

VMS mailing list to maintain the good, healthy

discussion rather than writing ill about other

phiolosophy.

Grow up !!

Remember that -

Aa No Bhadraha Kritavo Yantu Vishwathah

(Let noble thoughts come to us from all over the

world)

I am sure that Suguna Maala will continue this

principle.

Keshavaraja

Talk to your friends online with Messenger.

http://messenger.

December 29, 1999

Dear NAPS Rao,

Very well written. To reinforce what you have written here are a few

quotes from Bhashya

for Vak-Shuddi.

>if he had not asked all of us to keep our minds open and intellects sharp,

when studying Shasthras.

" Iti vedapathih Samyak samayaanaam Niraakritam Chakaara Nijabhaktaanaam

Buddhi ShaaNatva Siddaye " - Anu vyaakhyaana

> If at any given moment we are unable to do so, we should not bury the

conflict by refusing to look at the facts and preferring the Purana version

blindly,

" Shrouta Smrti Viruddatvaat Smritayo Na Gunaan Hareh " - Anu Bhashya

>I personally feel that such efforts should be laughed out of court rather

tha waste the time of a

>number of people trying to justify it

According to Srimad Acharya there is only ONE thing that has justification

and that is to understand

ParaBrahman.

" Assare Khalu Samsaare Saaramekam Nirupitam, Samasta Lokanaathasya Saaram

Araadhanam

Hareh "

Jayakrishna Nelamangala

----------

RJAY Consultants Inc.,

Tel: (703)430-8090 Fax: (703)904-8496

Email: jay

----------

napsrao <napsrao

Keshava Tadipatri <meerakesav

Cc: < >

Tuesday, December 28, 1999 12:11 PM

Re: Fwd: Kapilaranya to California

>napsrao <napsrao

>

>Friends,

>I am thankful to Mr. K T for having put the matter in proper

>perspective. There are a couple of points I would like to add in

>this regard.

>1. One has to make a distinction between Valid Pramanas such as

>the Vedas and Upanishaths, an the rest including Epics which are

>subject to the following difficulties in interpretation -

>extrapolation, conflict between each other needing

>reinterpretation of certain passages, conflict with evidence

>from other Pramanas, where the the latter are supreme, for

>instance - the reality of the world cognised by Prathyaksha etc.

>If we do not take care, we will end up either being too

>credulous believing every thing that any body says - because he

>claims his own authority for it or being hopelessly confused.

>Acharya Madhva would never have said (as stated in

>Sumadhvavijaya) that an unbiassed study of the Suthras and the

>original valid texts like the Vedas and Upanishads does not

>support the Advaita doctrines, if he had not asked all of us to

>keep our minds open and intellects sharp, when studying

>Shasthras. Even Sri Vedavyasa asks us to do Brahma Jijnasa

>(defined as query, study and analysis with the help of logic),

>instead of simply stating the final truth in ten sentences.

>2. When ever there is real conflict between the reality as

>determined by infallible evidence and the stories stated in

>Puranas, we have to resort to Samanvaya that does no violence to

>our intellectual honesty, if we want to call ourselves followers

>of one of the greatest and most honest and consistent

>philosophical systems in the world. Acharya Madhva himself never

>leaves any question unanswered - and his comments are so nicely

>elaborated by Sri Teekacharya and the other saints, that

>studying their works is one of the most satisfying intellectual

>tasks. If at any given moment we are unable to do so, we should

>not bury the conflict by refusing to look at the facts and

>preferring the Purana version blindly, specially when we do not

>even have the authority to determine the correct vesrion.

>3. Next comes the impossible kite flying types of statements -

>such as by the Kanchi Seer, trying to read some thing more than

>some simialirty into the sounds constituting the names

>Kapilaranya and California. I personally feel that such efforts

>should be laughed out of court rather tha waste the time of a

>number of people trying to justify it. I agree with Mr. Nataraj

>that an enlightened person like the Puthige Swamiji should not

>raise the status of such junk for publishing in Sugunamala etc.

>NAPSRao

>

>>nAham kartA hariH kartA tatpUjA karmachaakhilam.h|

>taThaapi matkR^itaa pUja tatprasaadhEna naanyaThaa|

>tadbhakti tadphalam.h mahyam.h tatprasaadaat.h punaH punaH |

>karmanyaasO harAvevam.h vishNOsthR^iptikaraH sadhA ||

>

> " I am not the doer, shri Hari is the doer, all the actions that I do are

His worship. Even then, the worship I do is through His grace and not

otherwise. That devotion and the fruits of the actions that come to me are

due to His recurring grace "

>If one always practices to do actions with a dedicated spirit to Hari, in

this way, it pleases Vishnu.

> --- Quoted by Sri madhvAchArya in GitA tAtparya

December 29, 1999

>

krishNabhaktas,

This thread is deteriorating into personal issues and issues with suguNa mAla

which are best discussed outside this list. I suggest that we stop such

discussions.

However, sri Nataraj has brought up two issues which can be discussed in a

sane and rational manner without bringing any personal issues and insults.

1. Can mAdhvAs have a reverential attitude towards people like sri RamakrishNa

paramahamsa and sri vivekAnanda?

Different people have different attitudes on this issue. Let us have a sane

and rational discussion on this without hurling insults. Some mAdhva religious

literature has very antagonistic attitude towards anything advaitic. Sumadhva

vijaya

tells us that sri sankarAcharya was an incarnation of maNimantha. Is this the

same answer for other spiritual leaders from other traditions? Is this the

correct analysis and answer based on philosophical inquiry? What is the

correct attitude

towards spiritual leaders in other traditions? What do you folks think? We can

ask sri puthige swamiji for his advice on this matter.

2. Is learning Yoga and meditation where most of the teachers seem to have an

advaitic orientation wrong for mAdhvas?

Again let us discuss this rationally with the same caveats.

I offer my opinion to start the discussion. It is true that meditation is not

emphasized that much in dvaita religious practices. But dhyAna and rAja is

discussed clearly in Geetha and several other places in dvaita literature.

Purandara dAsA's

" KanninoLage nodo " and other Haridasa compositions explain rAja yoga and

kundalini yoga. Meditation on the formless God is also mentioned and it is said

to be superior to the meditation on forms. (prathimAsu aprabudhdhAnAm..I believe

this is from

tantra sAra samgraha, but I may be wrong here).

Let us hear other opinions.

Let us conduct these discussions on a high intellectual level.

Hare srinivasa,

Regards,

Vasu

--

=================================

Vasu Murthy

vmurthy

==================================

December 30, 1999

OK, OK,OK.

I am sorry. I should have kept my mouth shut. These are issues nobody

wants to talk about. The issue of Sugunamala came up because the alleged

California-Kapilaranya connection was going to be published there. Since

VMS is a mAdhwa forum with mostly mAdhwa members and Sugunamala is a

mAdhwa magazine, I thought it was alright to express my concerns. May be

I am wrong. I don't know.

As far as my narrow-mindedness is concerned, I can't help it. I have

tried my best to understand advaita and give it a fair chance. But no

matter how I look at it, it looks like a grand lie to me. I personally

consider advaita to be the worst kind of blasphemy one can indulge in. So

I don't really have that much respect for people who indulge in that kind

of blasphemy. Yes, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Vivekananda have said a

lot of things which seem to be spiritually enlightening and millions of

Indians and westerners like them. But in the end, it all boils down to

mAyAvAda which I consider to be a grand lie. So I don't have any respect

for them or their teachings. We already have thousands of books about RK

and Vivekananda. I don't want to see their names in mAdhwa magazines

too.

But then, I don't have any authority over anyone. I am sorry for my

earlier messages and this one too. I will try to keep my mouth shut.

Regards

-Nataraj

On Wed, 29 Dec 1999 08:04:15 -0800 (PST) Keshavaraja Alive

<keshav_raj writes:

> Keshavaraja Alive <keshav_raj

>

> Nataraj,

>

> You are a Madhwa extremist and very narrow minded

> person. You better stop spoiling others mind too.

> You don't know the scope of the 'Suguna Maala' and you

> are not the person to define what should be there and

> what should not be there in Suguna Maala.

>

> First of all VMS mailing list is not the right

> platform to critisize or comment on Suguna Maala. If

> you need more clarification, you should directly write

> to Suguna Maala Publisher.

>

> I request VMS mailing list coordinator to scrutinize

> mails before publishing. Otherwise, narrowminded

> people will continue their dirty attitude.

>

> It is surprising to me that why you have brought the

> irrelevant matter of asking your sister to throw away

> photos of Swami Vivekananda or Ramakrishna Parama

> Hansa? Hating non-madhwa leaders and spreading the

> hatredness everywhere is not the message of Madhwa

> Philosophy.

>

> Have you not studied lot of things from Non-Madhwa

> teachers in your school ?

>

> I came to know that you are studying in a University

> in the United States. Are you not reading books

> authored by Non-Madhwa scientists or scholars?

>

> Don't waste your time in writing foolish and junk

> things and don't show your narrowmindedness in this

> mailing list. It is better if you unsuscribe for the

> VMS mailing list to maintain the good, healthy

> discussion rather than writing ill about other

> phiolosophy.

>

> Grow up !!

>

> Remember that -

>

> Aa No Bhadraha Kritavo Yantu Vishwathah

> (Let noble thoughts come to us from all over the

> world)

>

> I am sure that Suguna Maala will continue this

> principle.

>

> Keshavaraja

>

December 30, 1999

Dear Vasumurthy,

You have raised two questions.

1.Reverence towards Svamivivekananda etc.

It is customary for us to recite the following stanza when we want to talk about

shastraic subject.

'prithveemandalamadhyastA:h Purnabodhamatanuga:H

vaishnavA:h vishnubhaktAscha tAn namasyEgurUnmama'

From this it is clear that if we have to treat any person with ' reverence ' ,he

should be atleast a VishnubhaktA(which necessarily involves accepting the

supremacy of Vishnu and the subordination of other gods and all jivas to Him).

Second point.

In chapter 6 of the Bhagavadgita ,the type of yoga to be followed during dhyana

is explained. Here the 'yoga' is means to attain bhakti (or practice dhyana)and

not an end in itself. If yoga is an end in itself then it becomes 'aparavidya'

and only when it is directed towards God it becomes 'paravidya' in the way these

terms are used in Atharvopanishad.

'Yenahamihadurmargadudhriyabhiniveshita:h

samyak Sri VaishnavEmArgE pUrnaprajna m namAmyaham'

Best wishes,

Bannur.R

Vasu Murthy <vmurthy wrote:

>

krishNabhaktas,

This thread is deteriorating into personal issues and issues with suguNa mAla

which are best discussed outside this list. I suggest that we stop such

discussions.

However, sri Nataraj has brought up two issues which can be discussed in a sane

and rational manner without bringing any personal issues and insults.

1. Can mAdhvAs have a reverential attitude towards people like sri RamakrishNa

paramahamsa and sri vivekAnanda?

Different people have different attitudes on this issue. Let us have a sane and

rational discussion on this without hurling insults. Some mAdhva religious

literature has very antagonistic attitude towards anything advaitic. Sumadhva

vijaya

tells us that sri sankarAcharya was an incarnation of maNimantha. Is this the

same answer for other spiritual leaders from other traditions? Is this the

correct analysis and answer based on philosophical inquiry? What is the correct

attitude

towards spiritual leaders in other traditions? What do you folks think? We can

ask sri puthige swamiji for his advice on this matter.

2. Is learning Yoga and meditation where most of the teachers seem to have an

advaitic orientation wrong for mAdhvas?

Again let us discuss this rationally with the same caveats.

I offer my opinion to start the discussion. It is true that meditation is not

emphasized that much in dvaita religious practices. But dhyAna and rAja is

discussed clearly in Geetha and several other places in dvaita literature.

Purandara dAsA's

" KanninoLage nodo " and other Haridasa compositions explain rAja yoga and

kundalini yoga. Meditation on the formless God is also mentioned and it is said

to be superior to the meditation on forms. (prathimAsu aprabudhdhAnAm..I believe

this is from

tantra sAra samgraha, but I may be wrong here).

Let us hear other opinions.

Let us conduct these discussions on a high intellectual level.

Hare srinivasa,

Regards,

Vasu

--

=================================

Vasu Murthy

vmurthy

==================================

------

nAham kartA hariH kartA tatpUjA karmachaakhilam.h|

taThaapi matkR^itaa pUja tatprasaadhEna naanyaThaa|

tadbhakti tadphalam.h mahyam.h tatprasaadaat.h punaH punaH |

karmanyaasO harAvevam.h vishNOsthR^iptikaraH sadhA ||

" I am not the doer, shri Hari is the doer, all the actions that I do are His

worship. Even then, the worship I do is through His grace and not otherwise.

That devotion and the fruits of the actions that come to me are due to His

recurring grace "

If one always practices to do actions with a dedicated spirit to Hari, in this

way, it pleases Vishnu.

--- Quoted by Sri madhvAchArya in GitA tAtparya

Click Here

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October 12, 2012

Hello all learned gentlemen: My mom's side of the family are Madhwas and my father is Smartha and i have seen closely the rituals at home both sides. The wisdom this community bestowed the world is impeccuously important. I see you all learned and someone having the good authority on the our scriptures. I just would like to request you to pay attention to what is happening to Hinduism as whole in India today. Almost 40% of coastal Andhra Pradesh, the strong hold of the hindu culture, is now converted into Christianity. I heard about 85 to 95% of populace in Tripura, Manipur and Mizoram are converted Christians today. These forced, fraudulent and gullible conversions in AP have occured within the last 2/3 years! It will not be any surprise for all of us to see Christianity as a main stream religion in India within our life time! I would like to hear the steps that we all taking and voicing this out. Please help me hear it loud and clear from you all - what you are doing and plan to do to address this crisis. Thank you all

Venkat

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