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Conscience , It's Role, It's Awakening as per Gita

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I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

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Posted
Posted

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

 

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

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Posted
Posted

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

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Posted
Posted

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

-----------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My understanding is

that Viveka or discrimination is different and is used in a much wider sense. My

understanding is that " Vivek " is a spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is

that Viveka or discrimination is different and is used in a much

wider sense. My

understanding is that " Vivek " is a spiritual word related to

religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

SIMPLE PROCESS OF AWAKENING OF CONSCIENCE

 

The world has got a peculiarity. It always cheats, it always commits

treachery. In fact the world does not cheat , rather cheating occurs

in the world. Reason is that we get attracted towards the world to

get pleasures. But in the end- as a law- every pleasure essentially

gets converted into pain- By sheer nature of the pleasure. Whatever

rises, sets. If a certain pleasure has come to you, it has come to

you only to go! At the end of its tenure, the pleasure ends. Hence

when you get pain, sorrow, unhappiness, when you feel helplessness ,

THEN AN ADVICE , A REMINDER " comes into your INTELLECT " -

that " Nothing is mine in the world "

 

This reminder, this thought, this feeling, this experience AWAKENS

YOUR VIVEKA provided you know how to make use of that reminder!!

 

If even after getting pain, sorrow, helplessness- you still desire

to become happy- your conscience will not fully awaken. Because the

very cause of pain is " desire for happiness " . If you attempt to

remove " dukha " (sorrow) by getting " pleasures " - you are

unconsciously increasing, multiplying dukha only. Because the cause

of sorrow is desire for happiness and nothing else.

 

Therefore- WE MUST- when we receive pain/sorrow- relinquish the

desire for happiness ! On the other hand we must strive to find out

the reasons for pain/sorrow.

 

Says Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, categorically_

 

WHEN YOU RELINQUISH THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS AND WHEN YOU SEARCH THE

REASONS FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS YOUR VIVEKA (CONSCIENCE) AWAKENS !

 

Satsanga then greatly helps you. As Mike Keenor said-

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

As Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj said-

 

BINU SATSANGA VIVEKA NA HOI ( You don't acquire power of

discrimination without Satsanga)

 

To be continued- Conscience and Paramatma Realisation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Sadhaks ! When I asked this question I never thought that

deliberations will elevate to such heights. Indeed, as stated by

Sadhika Prepetina this group has a divinity of its own. What

surprises me is that in the same posting Brother Mike talks about

of importance of Satsanga, quotes BG 16:24 and in the same posting

Vyasji also talks about Satsanga being instrumental in awakening of

conscience. How common the truth becomes when it is a real truth !!

Unbelievable ! Jee Jee Shashikalaji " s Bhajan indeed reflects the

crux of what is conscience. Her example of a thief brings out a

common sentiment across all the human beings and precisely explains

what is " conscience " ! Pratapji has given absolutely dot on time

the dictionary meaning. On top of it, extracts from messages of

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What more can be more divine than

that !! Nothing pleased me more when Vyasji quickly reciprocated to

request of Prepetina to conclude fully my questions.

 

May this Forum live for ever.

 

Bandook Singh

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is that Viveka or discrimination is different and is

used in a much wider sense. My understanding is that " Vivek " is a

spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Re: Conscience , It's Role, It's Awakening as per Gita

 

 

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

I request GT Moderators to merge an earlier not fully concluded Q on

Story of mind from Yoga Vaashishtha under this question.(It was a Q

by Michael Hagen , I recall).

 

When Mr Conscience takes over the reigns ... There are plenty of

questions. Plenty of soul searching. You start " discriminating " !

You start thinking - Am I body? Who feels the " bondage " ? Certainly

the body is not feeling the bondage! Who will go to heaven or hell?

Certainly body will not go! You start thinking deeply as to who you

actually are. Why you are.

 

In that Michael Hagen question ( Story of mind- In GT group it was

listed under the Q - Biggest astonishment of the world) which due to

our going on vacations could not be concluded , the story takes you

to conscience. It is conscience who holds that man and asks - " What

is this? Who are you? Why do you run in vain? "

 

If GT Moderators can kindly merge that thread under this Question-

it will help the Sadhaks immensely- particularly because writer of

that story was Mr Conscience ! Alternately this posting may be

listed under that Q.

 

Thanks Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

PASTED PORTIONS OF MESSAGE. TO READ ENTIRE STRING PLEASE VISIT :

/message/1764

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Dear Aspirants of Peace

 

On this question , though I dont have much to state as my knowledge

of Gita is very very limited. But recently a friend gave me an

Indian Holy text in which the following short story was there. It

appeared very surprising story to me. I wonder if any one can throw

more light on it.

 

" THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN.

WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED , THAT FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND

EYES, STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF,

CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN MOUTH.

THEN, GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST. THEN, AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING

AND LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH

KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY ME FOR A

WHILE.

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do nothing " . " You

are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " . THUS , SAYING ,

HE WEPT . THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN

THAT HUGE FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT

FOREST IS THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

My question to this forum is to explain the above story. Who held

whom? Who asked questions ? What is the substance ? What is the

moral?

 

Michael Hagen

----------------

In Gita Yudhistir was asked the same question and he replied that

the greatest surprise was that though everyone knows that he has to

die someday, we all behave and go through life as if we are going to

live forever. That was the greatest of surprises in this world.

The moral of Michael Hagen's story is that we are all lost souls

going about the motions of living, without knowing what we are

doing, without knowing the purpose of our existence. We are like the

man who runs and keeps on falling in the well because we do

thoughtless things over and over again. Only a God-realised person

or through meditation can one know the real meaning of life.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

------------------

 

Hari Om

 

You have indeed presented to all of us , the true and real story of

each of us. All sadhaks should feel grateful to you. Sadhaks like

Michael and our Mike Keenor are real and respectable examples of

how a soul gallops towards the TRUTH once a desire or need has arisen

in it to find out the Divine . Soul recognises not any distinctions

of caste, creed, colour, country,. A burning desire is more than

enough to progress in spiritual uplifting.

 

This story in the first reading appears " mindless " though it is

exclusively about the " mind " - a funny story but very serious. For

serious sadhaks such stories set an order, a process of " sadhana " ….

And lead them straight to their goal- freedom from pain /sorrow …

systematically … step by step. For intelligent people such stories

are a challenge , a riddle, a reminder ! It is too brief in size but

too big in effect- like an arrow.

 

This story covers substance of . Soul ( SAT) , Conscience,. Jeeva,

Ego, Mind, Intellect, Destiny, Svabhav ( nature/habit) , Jagat (

World), Worldly Pleasures, Pain of the soul, Desires, MAYA ( Avidya,

agyaan, darkness, illusion, ignorance, stupidity, jugglery, ) ,

Knowledge ( CHIT, gyaan, light ) , Bondage, Liberation, , and

Jagdish ( God, Paramatma, ANANDA,- Divine, natural, absolute not

relative-, BLISS, PEACE ) This story is timeless. When we come

across such ocean deep stories , we cant help feeling proud of our

Religion, Saints and Sages, Heritage, and Holy Scriptures of eternal

Sanatan Dharma.

 

This " gaagar main saagar " ( Ocean in water pot) story first

thoroughly agitates and astonishes even the best of the human egos,

intellects and minds ; then gives them a powerful shock ; then

pacifies /satisfies/floors them fully. And then of course silences

them . In the end it makes YOU meet YOURSELF in SAT CHIT ANANDA

FORM.!

 

This story is the state of JIVA in his present form and is applicable

to all of us. It starts with Bondage and ends with Liberation and the

JIVA claiming the SATCHITANANDA FORM of Paramatma. Nothing explains

more eloquently the role of MAYA than this powerful short story. Who

else can be the writer of this story than CONSCIENCE which is direct

agent of Paramatma living in the human body along with JIVA ? Like

two birds on a tree – referred once by Mike Keenor in one of his

messages !! Who else can hold the soul so powerfully and ask such

direct questions than CONSCIENCE ?

 

It is from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma –

called YOGA VAASHISHTHA - where Sage Vaashishtha teaches Lord

Rama .

 

Balance in next message. In the meantime serious sadhaks should re

read this story – seriously & peacefully, in order to gain out of it.

The best way to read it is to " feel " it so that your mind becomes a

scene and you become the seer and your conscience starts

responding. " To feel " – put yourself into equanimous zone in which

zone your conscience always resides – be like a court judge- no

personal likings / dislikings. Read it as a challenge to your mental

equipment. Believe for once in what ever clues I have given here in

above.

 

1. THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN

 

This world is the forest in which we all, with minds, wander about.

It is a forest because with the cool air and beauty of nature ,

there are thorns also. There are wild animals also and chances of

our getting lost too. Being forest there are no ways visible. We

have to make our own ways. All the beauty and dangers of forest are

present in human life. - of every body- no exceptions.

 

2 WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED, THAT FEARFUL ONE

 

We are not peaceful. We are confused - constantly seeking pleasure

and happiness. We are fearful. We don't know what the next moment

might have in store for us. We may die anytime, anywhere. We are

confused as well as fearful because we are basically split at the

sub conscience level. While body, mind, ego etc " natuarally " remain

estalished in prakrithi (world/nature) only being part of them, but

we don't belong to nature. It is law that fear develops when one

enters the arena to which he doesnot belong or ONLY when when is in

company of " others " .. When we get attracted/connected

with " stranger/other " world, fear and confusion stick with us

permanently, (which fear goes ONLY when we disconnect from world).

Constant changes and uncertainties of the world also make us

confused and fearful.

 

3 WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

We are equipped in this forest with sharp intellect and vision,

imagination of mind. With capacity to work hard, and control other

species, animals, and fellow men ( a thousand hands) and an

exceptional vision ( a thousand eyes) we set about in this world to

seek pleasure and peace. We seek help of mind. We make efforts to

fulfill our desires.We want to be the best, the wealthiest, the most

intelligent, the most knowledgeable, the healthiest, the greatest.

We want to have every worldly comfort which our Dear and our own

mind can conceive! We don't want to lose. We always want to win. We

are proud of our mind and our intellect (vision). Mind gives a

solution to our eternal desire of being peaceful and happy. DESIRE

FOR WORLDLY THINGS. Since we like mind, we have connected with mind,

WE ACCEPT the suggestions of mind. We start seeking worldly

pleasures.

 

4 STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF, CRYING

AND RUNNING ...

 

Once mind desires, the sorrow and pain is a must in all

circumstances. What else we can do in the beginning, middle or end

of worldly desires except beating ourselves, brooding, fretting? The

beatings referred in the story are the blows of fancies,

imaginations and whims. They are indeed caused by one self . We only

hurt ourselves and no body else when we are in fits of anger, greed,

anxieties, ill temper, attachment ... Desires! We keep hurting

ourselves and sufferring mental agonies and turmoils, inner storms,

agitations, turbulences, fears and what not. We cry ..... We try to

run away from adverse circumstances caused exclusively due to your

mind desiring worldly pleasures and things. Running away from

adversity but again desiring favourable circumstances !! Sometimes

the desire is to " get pleasure " , sometime it is to " remove pains " .

Desire continues, subjects change!!

 

5 FELL BLINDLY INTO WELL WITH HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Desires have hidden mouth. They blind the desirer too. At the outset

they look goals, pleasant. Health, wealth, fame, affluence, power,

position, status, flashy cars, spacious home, right, virtue,

authority, respect, .... great feelings. Desires are beautiful.

Pains come into experience in abundance later.

 

BLINDLY .... You get blinded by desires. Pains get hidden.This

process of blocking your vision is in 3 stages. In the first stage,

the truth is as hidden as fire is hidden by smoke. In the second

stage, the reality is as not visible as your face in a mirror with a

layer of dust on it. In the final stage the gets as concealed as a

fetus in the womb !!!

 

FELL/WELL : " fell blindly into a well " here in this story means Jiva

going to hell . Here one life time ends. Desires, (kaam), reaction

of anger emanating out of unfullfilled desires ( krodha) and greed

arising out of fulfilled desires ( lobha) are three gates of hell .

( Refer BG 16:21) . Hence " well " referred here can only be " hell " .

 

Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is

reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell,

 

6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME.

 

He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " -

habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes

back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be

substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of

past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of

destiny.

 

HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING

HIMSELF OFTEN,

 

Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He

still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but

decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove,

to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something,

to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to

get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more

worldly pleasures. But all worldly .

 

He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of

efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the

desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a

decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not

haunt him badly.

 

7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING

 

But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too.

Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in

conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start

coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys

labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been

described as

 

" AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES "

 

8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got

exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is

back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and

same hell again ! Because desires continue.

 

Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of

pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And

continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the

attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the

connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect

because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal

body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only

do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at

the first time !!

 

Any views Shashikalaji ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna.

 

VYAS N B

-----------------------------

Dear Mike,

 

It is an extra-ordinary story of a spiritual seeker and his

observation on himself transparently. I felt as if it is told of me

and my own foolishness! Thanks for sharing it. This is my

interpretation of the story.

 

Story: FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST

 

… is the confused jungle of thoughts in one's perception.

 

Story: MAN WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED

 

… is the ego (or individual) lost in it.

 

Story: FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

… is the infitude of variance in the perceived world perpetually

throwing mutually conflicitng fears and desires on the individual.

 

Story: STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF

 

… means afterall the individual himself is harming himself thanks to

his ignorance.

 

 

Story: CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN

MOUTH

 

… means the lamenting fool drowns oneself beneath the ignorance of

depression in the name of sadhana shutting down one's sensory

operatus fearful of its transparency on one's reality.

 

Story: GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST

 

… the fool entered into silence with no appreciation cannot

withstand its oblivious nature and runs back into the same life full

of chaotic thoughts and actions.

 

Story: AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING AND

LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

… the story of repeated convolutions of delusions, illusions and

halluscinations with the worldly interaction continues till one's

tendencies (Vasana in Sanskrit) continue to haunt oneself.

 

Story: HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS

OF SUCH KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY

ME FOR A WHILE. HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you?

Why do you run in vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do

nothing " . " You are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " .

 

… the inner wisdom keeps its check on one's misconduct in one's

spiritual progress and acts as a catalyst to force one into self-

examination to root-cause one's problem rather than scrutinizing the

environment … realizes that the environment was never the enemy, but

oneself hiding from oneself perpetually … the individual comfounded

not understanding (not withstanding) what is going on wonders, " Who

am I? Am I not my enemy in the first place? Why am I running

frantically? Even if I run for ever, can I escape from myself?

Because of my association with my image, I am corrupt … is it not

time to drop this image? "

 

Story: THUS , SAYING , HE WEPT .

 

… But … how to drop that image – that is where, Mike, I am stuck

personally!

 

THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN THAT HUGE

FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT FOREST IS

THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

… definitely … the confused thoughts and actions still swarm me …

thanks to the image I am unable to let go … that is where, Mike, I

am stuck personally … I suppose the image will drop out one day …

when, I realize that I do not need to hide in the well … when I

realize the wandering itself is WONDERFUL in itself … when I realize

that there need not be push of desire to get out of a well and there

need not be any pull of fear drowning me into its oblivion … when I

realize that the very fear and desire are rooted in the very image I

am holding on to … when I realize that I don't need to frantically

recycle myself between oblivious wandering in the world and drowning

in the well … probably by continuous self-scrutiny in spite of such

frantic wandering around and drwoning within!!

 

Thanks for the WONDERFUL fact to teach me with its WONDERFUL

transparency.

 

THANK YOU. It is really WONDERFUL to receive the knowledge which

alone can eliminate the oblivious darkness haunting me within.

 

THANK YOU.

 

Deep Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Falling prey to " Maya " is the most astonishing wonderment in my view.

 

Some supplementary thoughts to the story explained by Tamma

Bhaiyya :

 

In the forest of worldly life our mind gets confused Jee ! and

there is a fear arising naturally in us because basically we are

permanent/ complete/never changing/ blissful - avinaashi/sahaj

sukhraasi Jee !!! But the world that this mind is attached to is -

temporary /

incomplete/deficient/ever changing/ ever sorrowful !!

 

Because of " svabhaav " (habits/individual attraction to the nature)

and past deeds/karma (association with strangers i.e the world) - we

desire worldly things and pleasure Jee !

 

Our desires are many, but as such only one Jee! ... Whatever we

think through mind .. Must happen Jee! The desires come in the form

of " my likings " ( Raag) and " my dislikings " (Dvesha). However, the

bitter truth is that simply by desiring we cannot get " worldly

pleasures " Jee, we can only get Daddy ! But that Daddy is

beyond " mind " Jee. Worldly pleasures are " natural " to mind, because

mind belongs to the world Jee, so does intellect and ego Jee( notion

of me/mine).

This mind (which I had said before is better if thrown in the

dustbin) seeks world and worldly pleasures only Jee.

 

This mind cheats us Jee in this regard. We like absolute fools

believe that " desiring " is necessary for getting worldly things. We

forget under the illusion caused by me/mine notion ( MAYA) that

while we don't desire sickness or death or adversity, still we get

it Jee. Even highly educated people, possessing a thousand hands and

eyes, say - " You must desire. The world will come to a grinding

hault if you stop desiring Jee. They think that if you don't have

desires, you are dead " Jee!

 

What a belief, Jee !! How wonderful, Jee!! How surprising !! As if

they desired to take birth, to grow, to fall sick, to deteriorate,

to die and as if they really selected their parents, children,

spouses, relatives, circumstances, situations, incidences, states,

happennings, colour, caste, creed, country, time, age !!! WHAT A

MAYA ! WHAT AN ILLUSION !!

 

That the most astonishing wonderment in human life, Jee! Maya !

Ignorance!! Stupidity !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having

complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not

been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers

immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps

cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and

permanent pain.

 

Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment

of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is

cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not

bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind ,

brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is

no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we

get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000

dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire

has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had

receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow

till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind,

and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !!

 

Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more

desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as

well as in sorrow,mind cheats us.

 

But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment

being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our

fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They

continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They

are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every

wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God !

 

When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly

suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by

telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the

time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that

happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is

responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr

Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was

bad " ) !

 

But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No !

They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my

vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me .....

mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ......

Non sense !!

 

What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear

Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ?

Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from "

sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) ,

part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave

and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !!

 

This is Maya , Jee !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

There is nothing greater than Paramatma. Whatever great thing you

have received, Paramatma is greater than even that. If you get

anything greater than Paramatma (surprisingly), then please,

immediately share will all of us, so that we also come to know. But

as such there is not such a thing, or else it would have not escaped

Swamiji's sight. Thank you !

 

Sarvottam

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

SIMPLE PROCESS OF AWAKENING OF CONSCIENCE

 

The world has got a peculiarity. It always cheats, it always commits

treachery. In fact the world does not cheat , rather cheating occurs

in the world. Reason is that we get attracted towards the world to

get pleasures. But in the end- as a law- every pleasure essentially

gets converted into pain- By sheer nature of the pleasure. Whatever

rises, sets. If a certain pleasure has come to you, it has come to

you only to go! At the end of its tenure, the pleasure ends. Hence

when you get pain, sorrow, unhappiness, when you feel helplessness ,

THEN AN ADVICE , A REMINDER " comes into your INTELLECT " -

that " Nothing is mine in the world "

 

This reminder, this thought, this feeling, this experience AWAKENS

YOUR VIVEKA provided you know how to make use of that reminder!!

 

If even after getting pain, sorrow, helplessness- you still desire

to become happy- your conscience will not fully awaken. Because the

very cause of pain is " desire for happiness " . If you attempt to

remove " dukha " (sorrow) by getting " pleasures " - you are

unconsciously increasing, multiplying dukha only. Because the cause

of sorrow is desire for happiness and nothing else.

 

Therefore- WE MUST- when we receive pain/sorrow- relinquish the

desire for happiness ! On the other hand we must strive to find out

the reasons for pain/sorrow.

 

Says Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, categorically_

 

WHEN YOU RELINQUISH THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS AND WHEN YOU SEARCH THE

REASONS FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS YOUR VIVEKA (CONSCIENCE) AWAKENS !

 

Satsanga then greatly helps you. As Mike Keenor said-

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

As Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj said-

 

BINU SATSANGA VIVEKA NA HOI ( You don't acquire power of

discrimination without Satsanga)

 

To be continued- Conscience and Paramatma Realisation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Sadhaks ! When I asked this question I never thought that

deliberations will elevate to such heights. Indeed, as stated by

Sadhika Prepetina this group has a divinity of its own. What

surprises me is that in the same posting Brother Mike talks about

of importance of Satsanga, quotes BG 16:24 and in the same posting

Vyasji also talks about Satsanga being instrumental in awakening of

conscience. How common the truth becomes when it is a real truth !!

Unbelievable ! Jee Jee Shashikalaji " s Bhajan indeed reflects the

crux of what is conscience. Her example of a thief brings out a

common sentiment across all the human beings and precisely explains

what is " conscience " ! Pratapji has given absolutely dot on time

the dictionary meaning. On top of it, extracts from messages of

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What more can be more divine than

that !! Nothing pleased me more when Vyasji quickly reciprocated to

request of Prepetina to conclude fully my questions.

 

May this Forum live for ever.

 

Bandook Singh

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is that Viveka or discrimination is different and is

used in a much wider sense. My understanding is that " Vivek " is a

spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Re: Conscience , It's Role, It's Awakening as per Gita

 

 

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Thanks GT Moderators !

 

VIVEKA - THE POWER OF DISCRIMINATION

 

When Mr Viveka takes over the hold of you, there are lots of

questions. There is a lot soul searching. Your peace gets snatched.

Conscience forces you to listen to him.You have choice still of

disregarding him, but only after hearing him !!

 

Viveka (Conscience) takes you beyond desires/mind ! It

discriminates. Viveka only and not mind that suggest to you

that " desires are insatiable " . Gita also suggests that only. Can

fire extinguish if you keep adding fuel into it?

 

You want to have good spouse, children, parents, lot of money,

robust health, fame - so that you may become happy. This is

suggestion of mind.

 

Viveka confronts you with a counter question. Whether those who have

better spouses, children, more money than you, etc - Are they

happy ?? Happiness is not in presence of worldly things, it resides

in absence of desires for worldly things.

Your mind wants to change the circumstances, situations to suit it,

to suit the desres/goals ! It never takes easy/simple ways. Your

conscience tells You that one can never change the circumstances, a

simple way is to " change yourself " . Pain lies in feeling of

deficiency within. That deficiency gets created when you desire!!

You consider your self to be big, if you have lot of money! Now who

is bigger? You or money ? We make a mockery of ourselves by

desiring. What we have to get, we shall get, irrespective of our

desiring for the same!! Worldly things will not stop coming to you

if you stop desiring- only pains will cease!! How easy ! How simple!!

 

YOUR MIND CHEATS YOU JEE WHEN IT SUGGESTS THAT " To renounce desires

is very difficult " . Ask your mind - " WHY DONT YOU SUGGEST THAT TO

FULFILL DESIRES IS IMPOSSIBLE? " That mind will never suggest to

you ! That only Mr Conscience can tell you.

 

Wake up .... Jee ... O Dear Child of God ... Wake up !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

Dear Aspirants of Peace !

 

Thank you very much for recalling my question. It was so near the

conclusion , yet it became so far. Frankly, I thought that steam has

run out of this group when real concluding time came. I even

considered unsubscribing but something in me stopped (

conscience?) ! Looking forward to the deliberations.

 

Conscience according to me is " gut feeling " , a sixth sense,

something which is present in a human being definitely. Something

which is capable of tormenting a sinner. Something related with

inner peace of a human. I agree with Sadhaks that it should be

respected. However I am eager to know how it leads you to ultimate

truth. How to convert it into what you sadhaks call as liberation or

benediction- freedom from the sorrow for ever !

 

Thanks, once again.

 

Michael Hagen

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Thanks Shashikalaji. Certainly that story depicts the role of VIVEKA

( Conscience) in the best possible manner. That story is the story

of each one of us , having been quoted in YOGA VAASHISHTHA –

unquestionably one of the most respected and profound heritage

Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Viveka – how does it discriminate?

What does it discriminate. How it functions. What is the result of

disrespect to Conscience.? What is the result of respecting to it?

All these factors are covered in this story. I had covered this

story upto " HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE

CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH KIND, AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS

AWAKENED BY ME FOR A WHILE. "

 

A human being is seen constantly by VIVEKA. Viveka remains as a

spectator to your conduct and when you pay respect to it , it takes

over the responsibility of guide, friend and philosopher to you. If

you keep listening to the dictates of Viveka, it can lead you to

Liberation. This story is complete story in itself of a man's

journey into human life – from Bondage to Liberation. Conscience

holds you BY FORCE. It snatches away your logical mind. It snatches

away your very tranquillity, peace. Nothing torments a human more

than his conscience ! Condition is – you must not ignore it

consistently – under sway of desires.

 

Before I continue with the story let me request sadhaks , to refresh

themselves by reading the text and responses again. It was explained

that DESIRES for worldly pleasures, ( Maya) is responsible for a

man's agony and lack of peace. When a person gets utterly helpless,

caught in the web of its own mind, own desires- a voice comes- a

powerful voice from deep inside –

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain?

 

This, Dear Sadhaks , is the voice of VIVEKA asking to JEEVA !

Jeeva !! That Jeeva who now is nothing except EGO !! Jeeva forgets

who actually he is ! He considers himself to be body, to be say

Vyas N B, to be an assumed entity. Conscience tells him, explains

him what actually he is. Conscience asks questions. Conscience lets

him " discriminate " . Conscience holds him BY FORCE ! Read the

questions asked by Viveka to Jeeva ( Ego- Embodied self) ! Admire in

the meantime the depth and simplicity of the questions.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Friends

 

Thanks to Jee Jee for recalling Mike's unconcluded Q. I think it

will make us all wiser. Conscience or viveka as it is called in

native language is experienced/felt by all of us sometime or other.

I agree with Mike Keenor that it must be discovered to be

beyond " intellect " . I think conscience prevents a human being from

abstaining from evil deeds. Still if a man sins, then conscience

even punishes internally a man and distorts his psyche. Conscience

if it is hurt then never allows a person to remain at peace. Hard

core criminals perhaps disrespect the conscience and then only they

can commit evil deeds. Conscience to me is like a police man present

in you. I am happy that there is religion in the world which not

only analyses this extra terrestial faculty in a human being, and

leads what you call soul to utilise it properly and then reap

highest rewards. Wonderful ! It is astonishing to find that there

are Saints of the class of Swami Ramsukhdas who can really throw

light on such an element and can guide humanity at large on proper

utilisation of such element. I also agree to the latest post of Mr

Pratap Bhatt who so eloquently explained the element. Of course Mr

Vyas N B and all other learned sadhaks have thrown light on the

element. It is indeed great to be part of this Gita Talk forum

 

Thank You all

 

Luca B

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

I request GT Moderators to merge an earlier not fully concluded Q on

Story of mind from Yoga Vaashishtha under this question.(It was a Q

by Michael Hagen , I recall).

 

When Mr Conscience takes over the reigns ... There are plenty of

questions. Plenty of soul searching. You start " discriminating " !

You start thinking - Am I body? Who feels the " bondage " ? Certainly

the body is not feeling the bondage! Who will go to heaven or hell?

Certainly body will not go! You start thinking deeply as to who you

actually are. Why you are.

 

In that Michael Hagen question ( Story of mind- In GT group it was

listed under the Q - Biggest astonishment of the world) which due to

our going on vacations could not be concluded , the story takes you

to conscience. It is conscience who holds that man and asks - " What

is this? Who are you? Why do you run in vain? "

 

If GT Moderators can kindly merge that thread under this Question-

it will help the Sadhaks immensely- particularly because writer of

that story was Mr Conscience ! Alternately this posting may be

listed under that Q.

 

Thanks Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

PASTED PORTIONS OF MESSAGE. TO READ ENTIRE STRING PLEASE VISIT :

/message/1764

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Dear Aspirants of Peace

 

On this question , though I dont have much to state as my knowledge

of Gita is very very limited. But recently a friend gave me an

Indian Holy text in which the following short story was there. It

appeared very surprising story to me. I wonder if any one can throw

more light on it.

 

" THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN.

WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED , THAT FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND

EYES, STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF,

CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN MOUTH.

THEN, GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST. THEN, AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING

AND LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH

KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY ME FOR A

WHILE.

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do nothing " . " You

are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " . THUS , SAYING ,

HE WEPT . THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN

THAT HUGE FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT

FOREST IS THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

My question to this forum is to explain the above story. Who held

whom? Who asked questions ? What is the substance ? What is the

moral?

 

Michael Hagen

----------------

In Gita Yudhistir was asked the same question and he replied that

the greatest surprise was that though everyone knows that he has to

die someday, we all behave and go through life as if we are going to

live forever. That was the greatest of surprises in this world.

The moral of Michael Hagen's story is that we are all lost souls

going about the motions of living, without knowing what we are

doing, without knowing the purpose of our existence. We are like the

man who runs and keeps on falling in the well because we do

thoughtless things over and over again. Only a God-realised person

or through meditation can one know the real meaning of life.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

------------------

 

Hari Om

 

You have indeed presented to all of us , the true and real story of

each of us. All sadhaks should feel grateful to you. Sadhaks like

Michael and our Mike Keenor are real and respectable examples of

how a soul gallops towards the TRUTH once a desire or need has arisen

in it to find out the Divine . Soul recognises not any distinctions

of caste, creed, colour, country,. A burning desire is more than

enough to progress in spiritual uplifting.

 

This story in the first reading appears " mindless " though it is

exclusively about the " mind " - a funny story but very serious. For

serious sadhaks such stories set an order, a process of " sadhana " ….

And lead them straight to their goal- freedom from pain /sorrow …

systematically … step by step. For intelligent people such stories

are a challenge , a riddle, a reminder ! It is too brief in size but

too big in effect- like an arrow.

 

This story covers substance of . Soul ( SAT) , Conscience,. Jeeva,

Ego, Mind, Intellect, Destiny, Svabhav ( nature/habit) , Jagat (

World), Worldly Pleasures, Pain of the soul, Desires, MAYA ( Avidya,

agyaan, darkness, illusion, ignorance, stupidity, jugglery, ) ,

Knowledge ( CHIT, gyaan, light ) , Bondage, Liberation, , and

Jagdish ( God, Paramatma, ANANDA,- Divine, natural, absolute not

relative-, BLISS, PEACE ) This story is timeless. When we come

across such ocean deep stories , we cant help feeling proud of our

Religion, Saints and Sages, Heritage, and Holy Scriptures of eternal

Sanatan Dharma.

 

This " gaagar main saagar " ( Ocean in water pot) story first

thoroughly agitates and astonishes even the best of the human egos,

intellects and minds ; then gives them a powerful shock ; then

pacifies /satisfies/floors them fully. And then of course silences

them . In the end it makes YOU meet YOURSELF in SAT CHIT ANANDA

FORM.!

 

This story is the state of JIVA in his present form and is applicable

to all of us. It starts with Bondage and ends with Liberation and the

JIVA claiming the SATCHITANANDA FORM of Paramatma. Nothing explains

more eloquently the role of MAYA than this powerful short story. Who

else can be the writer of this story than CONSCIENCE which is direct

agent of Paramatma living in the human body along with JIVA ? Like

two birds on a tree – referred once by Mike Keenor in one of his

messages !! Who else can hold the soul so powerfully and ask such

direct questions than CONSCIENCE ?

 

It is from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma –

called YOGA VAASHISHTHA - where Sage Vaashishtha teaches Lord

Rama .

 

Balance in next message. In the meantime serious sadhaks should re

read this story – seriously & peacefully, in order to gain out of it.

The best way to read it is to " feel " it so that your mind becomes a

scene and you become the seer and your conscience starts

responding. " To feel " – put yourself into equanimous zone in which

zone your conscience always resides – be like a court judge- no

personal likings / dislikings. Read it as a challenge to your mental

equipment. Believe for once in what ever clues I have given here in

above.

 

1. THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN

 

This world is the forest in which we all, with minds, wander about.

It is a forest because with the cool air and beauty of nature ,

there are thorns also. There are wild animals also and chances of

our getting lost too. Being forest there are no ways visible. We

have to make our own ways. All the beauty and dangers of forest are

present in human life. - of every body- no exceptions.

 

2 WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED, THAT FEARFUL ONE

 

We are not peaceful. We are confused - constantly seeking pleasure

and happiness. We are fearful. We don't know what the next moment

might have in store for us. We may die anytime, anywhere. We are

confused as well as fearful because we are basically split at the

sub conscience level. While body, mind, ego etc " natuarally " remain

estalished in prakrithi (world/nature) only being part of them, but

we don't belong to nature. It is law that fear develops when one

enters the arena to which he doesnot belong or ONLY when when is in

company of " others " .. When we get attracted/connected

with " stranger/other " world, fear and confusion stick with us

permanently, (which fear goes ONLY when we disconnect from world).

Constant changes and uncertainties of the world also make us

confused and fearful.

 

3 WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

We are equipped in this forest with sharp intellect and vision,

imagination of mind. With capacity to work hard, and control other

species, animals, and fellow men ( a thousand hands) and an

exceptional vision ( a thousand eyes) we set about in this world to

seek pleasure and peace. We seek help of mind. We make efforts to

fulfill our desires.We want to be the best, the wealthiest, the most

intelligent, the most knowledgeable, the healthiest, the greatest.

We want to have every worldly comfort which our Dear and our own

mind can conceive! We don't want to lose. We always want to win. We

are proud of our mind and our intellect (vision). Mind gives a

solution to our eternal desire of being peaceful and happy. DESIRE

FOR WORLDLY THINGS. Since we like mind, we have connected with mind,

WE ACCEPT the suggestions of mind. We start seeking worldly

pleasures.

 

4 STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF, CRYING

AND RUNNING ...

 

Once mind desires, the sorrow and pain is a must in all

circumstances. What else we can do in the beginning, middle or end

of worldly desires except beating ourselves, brooding, fretting? The

beatings referred in the story are the blows of fancies,

imaginations and whims. They are indeed caused by one self . We only

hurt ourselves and no body else when we are in fits of anger, greed,

anxieties, ill temper, attachment ... Desires! We keep hurting

ourselves and sufferring mental agonies and turmoils, inner storms,

agitations, turbulences, fears and what not. We cry ..... We try to

run away from adverse circumstances caused exclusively due to your

mind desiring worldly pleasures and things. Running away from

adversity but again desiring favourable circumstances !! Sometimes

the desire is to " get pleasure " , sometime it is to " remove pains " .

Desire continues, subjects change!!

 

5 FELL BLINDLY INTO WELL WITH HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Desires have hidden mouth. They blind the desirer too. At the outset

they look goals, pleasant. Health, wealth, fame, affluence, power,

position, status, flashy cars, spacious home, right, virtue,

authority, respect, .... great feelings. Desires are beautiful.

Pains come into experience in abundance later.

 

BLINDLY .... You get blinded by desires. Pains get hidden.This

process of blocking your vision is in 3 stages. In the first stage,

the truth is as hidden as fire is hidden by smoke. In the second

stage, the reality is as not visible as your face in a mirror with a

layer of dust on it. In the final stage the gets as concealed as a

fetus in the womb !!!

 

FELL/WELL : " fell blindly into a well " here in this story means Jiva

going to hell . Here one life time ends. Desires, (kaam), reaction

of anger emanating out of unfullfilled desires ( krodha) and greed

arising out of fulfilled desires ( lobha) are three gates of hell .

( Refer BG 16:21) . Hence " well " referred here can only be " hell " .

 

Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is

reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell,

 

6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME.

 

He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " -

habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes

back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be

substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of

past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of

destiny.

 

HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING

HIMSELF OFTEN,

 

Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He

still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but

decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove,

to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something,

to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to

get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more

worldly pleasures. But all worldly .

 

He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of

efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the

desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a

decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not

haunt him badly.

 

7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING

 

But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too.

Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in

conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start

coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys

labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been

described as

 

" AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES "

 

8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got

exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is

back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and

same hell again ! Because desires continue.

 

Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of

pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And

continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the

attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the

connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect

because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal

body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only

do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at

the first time !!

 

Any views Shashikalaji ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna.

 

VYAS N B

-----------------------------

Dear Mike,

 

It is an extra-ordinary story of a spiritual seeker and his

observation on himself transparently. I felt as if it is told of me

and my own foolishness! Thanks for sharing it. This is my

interpretation of the story.

 

Story: FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST

 

… is the confused jungle of thoughts in one's perception.

 

Story: MAN WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED

 

… is the ego (or individual) lost in it.

 

Story: FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

… is the infitude of variance in the perceived world perpetually

throwing mutually conflicitng fears and desires on the individual.

 

Story: STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF

 

… means afterall the individual himself is harming himself thanks to

his ignorance.

 

 

Story: CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN

MOUTH

 

… means the lamenting fool drowns oneself beneath the ignorance of

depression in the name of sadhana shutting down one's sensory

operatus fearful of its transparency on one's reality.

 

Story: GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST

 

… the fool entered into silence with no appreciation cannot

withstand its oblivious nature and runs back into the same life full

of chaotic thoughts and actions.

 

Story: AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING AND

LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

… the story of repeated convolutions of delusions, illusions and

halluscinations with the worldly interaction continues till one's

tendencies (Vasana in Sanskrit) continue to haunt oneself.

 

Story: HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS

OF SUCH KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY

ME FOR A WHILE. HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you?

Why do you run in vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do

nothing " . " You are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " .

 

… the inner wisdom keeps its check on one's misconduct in one's

spiritual progress and acts as a catalyst to force one into self-

examination to root-cause one's problem rather than scrutinizing the

environment … realizes that the environment was never the enemy, but

oneself hiding from oneself perpetually … the individual comfounded

not understanding (not withstanding) what is going on wonders, " Who

am I? Am I not my enemy in the first place? Why am I running

frantically? Even if I run for ever, can I escape from myself?

Because of my association with my image, I am corrupt … is it not

time to drop this image? "

 

Story: THUS , SAYING , HE WEPT .

 

… But … how to drop that image – that is where, Mike, I am stuck

personally!

 

THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN THAT HUGE

FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT FOREST IS

THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

… definitely … the confused thoughts and actions still swarm me …

thanks to the image I am unable to let go … that is where, Mike, I

am stuck personally … I suppose the image will drop out one day …

when, I realize that I do not need to hide in the well … when I

realize the wandering itself is WONDERFUL in itself … when I realize

that there need not be push of desire to get out of a well and there

need not be any pull of fear drowning me into its oblivion … when I

realize that the very fear and desire are rooted in the very image I

am holding on to … when I realize that I don't need to frantically

recycle myself between oblivious wandering in the world and drowning

in the well … probably by continuous self-scrutiny in spite of such

frantic wandering around and drwoning within!!

 

Thanks for the WONDERFUL fact to teach me with its WONDERFUL

transparency.

 

THANK YOU. It is really WONDERFUL to receive the knowledge which

alone can eliminate the oblivious darkness haunting me within.

 

THANK YOU.

 

Deep Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Falling prey to " Maya " is the most astonishing wonderment in my view.

 

Some supplementary thoughts to the story explained by Tamma

Bhaiyya :

 

In the forest of worldly life our mind gets confused Jee ! and

there is a fear arising naturally in us because basically we are

permanent/ complete/never changing/ blissful - avinaashi/sahaj

sukhraasi Jee !!! But the world that this mind is attached to is -

temporary /

incomplete/deficient/ever changing/ ever sorrowful !!

 

Because of " svabhaav " (habits/individual attraction to the nature)

and past deeds/karma (association with strangers i.e the world) - we

desire worldly things and pleasure Jee !

 

Our desires are many, but as such only one Jee! ... Whatever we

think through mind .. Must happen Jee! The desires come in the form

of " my likings " ( Raag) and " my dislikings " (Dvesha). However, the

bitter truth is that simply by desiring we cannot get " worldly

pleasures " Jee, we can only get Daddy ! But that Daddy is

beyond " mind " Jee. Worldly pleasures are " natural " to mind, because

mind belongs to the world Jee, so does intellect and ego Jee( notion

of me/mine).

This mind (which I had said before is better if thrown in the

dustbin) seeks world and worldly pleasures only Jee.

 

This mind cheats us Jee in this regard. We like absolute fools

believe that " desiring " is necessary for getting worldly things. We

forget under the illusion caused by me/mine notion ( MAYA) that

while we don't desire sickness or death or adversity, still we get

it Jee. Even highly educated people, possessing a thousand hands and

eyes, say - " You must desire. The world will come to a grinding

hault if you stop desiring Jee. They think that if you don't have

desires, you are dead " Jee!

 

What a belief, Jee !! How wonderful, Jee!! How surprising !! As if

they desired to take birth, to grow, to fall sick, to deteriorate,

to die and as if they really selected their parents, children,

spouses, relatives, circumstances, situations, incidences, states,

happennings, colour, caste, creed, country, time, age !!! WHAT A

MAYA ! WHAT AN ILLUSION !!

 

That the most astonishing wonderment in human life, Jee! Maya !

Ignorance!! Stupidity !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having

complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not

been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers

immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps

cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and

permanent pain.

 

Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment

of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is

cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not

bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind ,

brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is

no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we

get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000

dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire

has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had

receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow

till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind,

and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !!

 

Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more

desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as

well as in sorrow,mind cheats us.

 

But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment

being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our

fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They

continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They

are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every

wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God !

 

When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly

suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by

telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the

time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that

happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is

responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr

Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was

bad " ) !

 

But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No !

They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my

vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me .....

mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ......

Non sense !!

 

What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear

Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ?

Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from "

sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) ,

part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave

and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !!

 

This is Maya , Jee !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

There is nothing greater than Paramatma. Whatever great thing you

have received, Paramatma is greater than even that. If you get

anything greater than Paramatma (surprisingly), then please,

immediately share will all of us, so that we also come to know. But

as such there is not such a thing, or else it would have not escaped

Swamiji's sight. Thank you !

 

Sarvottam

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

SIMPLE PROCESS OF AWAKENING OF CONSCIENCE

 

The world has got a peculiarity. It always cheats, it always commits

treachery. In fact the world does not cheat , rather cheating occurs

in the world. Reason is that we get attracted towards the world to

get pleasures. But in the end- as a law- every pleasure essentially

gets converted into pain- By sheer nature of the pleasure. Whatever

rises, sets. If a certain pleasure has come to you, it has come to

you only to go! At the end of its tenure, the pleasure ends. Hence

when you get pain, sorrow, unhappiness, when you feel helplessness ,

THEN AN ADVICE , A REMINDER " comes into your INTELLECT " -

that " Nothing is mine in the world "

 

This reminder, this thought, this feeling, this experience AWAKENS

YOUR VIVEKA provided you know how to make use of that reminder!!

 

If even after getting pain, sorrow, helplessness- you still desire

to become happy- your conscience will not fully awaken. Because the

very cause of pain is " desire for happiness " . If you attempt to

remove " dukha " (sorrow) by getting " pleasures " - you are

unconsciously increasing, multiplying dukha only. Because the cause

of sorrow is desire for happiness and nothing else.

 

Therefore- WE MUST- when we receive pain/sorrow- relinquish the

desire for happiness ! On the other hand we must strive to find out

the reasons for pain/sorrow.

 

Says Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, categorically_

 

WHEN YOU RELINQUISH THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS AND WHEN YOU SEARCH THE

REASONS FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS YOUR VIVEKA (CONSCIENCE) AWAKENS !

 

Satsanga then greatly helps you. As Mike Keenor said-

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

As Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj said-

 

BINU SATSANGA VIVEKA NA HOI ( You don't acquire power of

discrimination without Satsanga)

 

To be continued- Conscience and Paramatma Realisation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Sadhaks ! When I asked this question I never thought that

deliberations will elevate to such heights. Indeed, as stated by

Sadhika Prepetina this group has a divinity of its own. What

surprises me is that in the same posting Brother Mike talks about

of importance of Satsanga, quotes BG 16:24 and in the same posting

Vyasji also talks about Satsanga being instrumental in awakening of

conscience. How common the truth becomes when it is a real truth !!

Unbelievable ! Jee Jee Shashikalaji " s Bhajan indeed reflects the

crux of what is conscience. Her example of a thief brings out a

common sentiment across all the human beings and precisely explains

what is " conscience " ! Pratapji has given absolutely dot on time

the dictionary meaning. On top of it, extracts from messages of

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What more can be more divine than

that !! Nothing pleased me more when Vyasji quickly reciprocated to

request of Prepetina to conclude fully my questions.

 

May this Forum live for ever.

 

Bandook Singh

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is that Viveka or discrimination is different and is

used in a much wider sense. My understanding is that " Vivek " is a

spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Re: Conscience , It's Role, It's Awakening as per Gita

 

 

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

 

-----------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I fully agree with Sadhak Pratapji Bhatt. His description of

Conscience is very timely. When the " reflected " intelligences ( in

the words of Swamiji- Viveka- as quoted by Brother Mike Keenor under

another Q) which are only Pure Consciousness , are intent on or on

the point of willing or ideation, then , they attain to the state of

individual souls or individualised consciousness- JUST AS WATER

ASSUMES THE STATE OF WAVES !

 

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that there are two ways to

awaken your conscience. Sorrow and Satsanga ! Here in this story the

man is tormented by affliction and sorrow. Serious sadhaks hence

forth should meticulously read each and word of this story. Read

between the lines too! Read rather " feel " ! Put your self

into " equanimous " zone and then read. We are reaching climax. We are

only a couple of steps away from benediction!

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " WHAT IS THIS? WHO ARE YOU? WHY DO YOU RUN IN

VAIN ?

 

And that voice asks you questions ! What is this? Are you supposed

to be in this shape? What have you achieved so far? Only that which

must leave you !! To achieve what must leave you- is no achievement

in reality. A human keeps wasting time and effort in achieving

temporary, perishables and momentaries.... What else? What else we

can achieve by using temporary tools like mind, body, intellect ?

WHO ARE YOU ? Are you what you are reflecting /believing/assuming

yourself to be? Are you the name by which you are called? Are you

the the ego or mind or intellect or the body? If yes, then how you

are witnessing changes in ego, mind, intellect, body ? Can " seer " be

the " seen " ? WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN? How much compromises, sins you

have made to fulfill your desires? Have your desires been fulfilled?

Do you now find yourself into that state where nothing remains to be

done or got or known by you?

 

These are the " discriminatory " questions. Real questions. These are

asked by conscience to Jeeva. What is Jeeva? Ego ! " Jeeva " resides

in " ego " - in " causal body " - in " ignorance zone " !

 

Hence the question - WHO ARE YOU ? - is replied in this great story

by EGO !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

-----------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

I've read Ji Ji Shashikalaji's article deeply also I recall her

dialog between Jiva and Maya, and also appreciate Michael Hagen's

gut feeling concept, I would like to go a little deeper.

I think I told this story before, in the current light I think I

would like to look at it again and add an addendum.

A true story I read when I was a young man:

A reporter for a newspaper, used to work himself very hard, living on

coffee and junk etc., but he had the habit of dropping out for a

complete break for a few weeks. This time he rented a cell(room) in a

monastery of a silent order. He took to meditation/contemplation,

tuning into the ethos of the place. He took to sitting in the back of

the chapel to listen to the monks as they chanted their devotions.

He would then leave prior to the end of the service.

One morning he remained alone after the monks had left and was drawn

before the alter, whereby he collapsed in grief pain horror spiritual

agony self loathing remorse outreaching and so on. And found he was

not alone, a very old monk had returned, comforted him, assured him

this was not unknown to him. Of course this journalist was never the

same again. I never thought it would happen to me!

The heart can release suddenly, as it were, like an explosion of

love, overpowering, one changes there and then.

I think I will leave it there for now.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Conscience when it awakens asks questions. It straight away attacks

the very roots of your existence! " Me and Mine " - Ego !

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " me " . WHO ARE YOU?

Body or soul? Temporary or permanent? Perishable or imperishable?

Sentient or inert? Seer or the seen? Kshetra or Kshetragya? Mortal

or immortal? Ever sorrowful or ever blissful?

 

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " mine " ! What is yours?

The world and the worldly people or Paramatma? Or worldly things or

body? Who is yours? To whom do you belong?

 

SATSANGA- association with virtuous people, Saints and Sages ( like

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) , association with Truth, reading of

Holy Scriptures ( Like Gita, Ramayana, Bible etc) , membership of

selfless forums like this Gita Talk Group etc- provides you the

answers to these questions.

SORROW propels/ raises such questions. SATSANGA answers such

questions.How easy! Hence Swamiji sings glories of adverse

circumstances in human life. Therefore it is sorrow and satsanga-

that help you in getting liberated. It is our foolishness that we

run away from sorrows!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

 

Jay Shri Krishna

 

I have one question. In Gita (7 - 4,5) God has described his 2 kinds

of nature:

" Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and ego- these

constitute My nature divided into eight parts. This is indeed My

lower (apara/insentient) nature; but different from it, O mighty-

armed is My higher (para/sentient)nature- the life-element (Jiva),

by which this universe is sustained. "

 

As I understand except these 10 elements (including God) nothing is

left out. So where does viveka (conscience) come in picture?

 

Thanks,

Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Thanks GT Moderators !

 

VIVEKA - THE POWER OF DISCRIMINATION

 

When Mr Viveka takes over the hold of you, there are lots of

questions. There is a lot soul searching. Your peace gets snatched.

Conscience forces you to listen to him.You have choice still of

disregarding him, but only after hearing him !!

 

Viveka (Conscience) takes you beyond desires/mind ! It

discriminates. Viveka only and not mind that suggest to you

that " desires are insatiable " . Gita also suggests that only. Can

fire extinguish if you keep adding fuel into it?

 

You want to have good spouse, children, parents, lot of money,

robust health, fame - so that you may become happy. This is

suggestion of mind.

 

Viveka confronts you with a counter question. Whether those who have

better spouses, children, more money than you, etc - Are they

happy ?? Happiness is not in presence of worldly things, it resides

in absence of desires for worldly things.

Your mind wants to change the circumstances, situations to suit it,

to suit the desres/goals ! It never takes easy/simple ways. Your

conscience tells You that one can never change the circumstances, a

simple way is to " change yourself " . Pain lies in feeling of

deficiency within. That deficiency gets created when you desire!!

You consider your self to be big, if you have lot of money! Now who

is bigger? You or money ? We make a mockery of ourselves by

desiring. What we have to get, we shall get, irrespective of our

desiring for the same!! Worldly things will not stop coming to you

if you stop desiring- only pains will cease!! How easy ! How simple!!

 

YOUR MIND CHEATS YOU JEE WHEN IT SUGGESTS THAT " To renounce desires

is very difficult " . Ask your mind - " WHY DONT YOU SUGGEST THAT TO

FULFILL DESIRES IS IMPOSSIBLE? " That mind will never suggest to

you ! That only Mr Conscience can tell you.

 

Wake up .... Jee ... O Dear Child of God ... Wake up !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

Dear Aspirants of Peace !

 

Thank you very much for recalling my question. It was so near the

conclusion , yet it became so far. Frankly, I thought that steam has

run out of this group when real concluding time came. I even

considered unsubscribing but something in me stopped (

conscience?) ! Looking forward to the deliberations.

 

Conscience according to me is " gut feeling " , a sixth sense,

something which is present in a human being definitely. Something

which is capable of tormenting a sinner. Something related with

inner peace of a human. I agree with Sadhaks that it should be

respected. However I am eager to know how it leads you to ultimate

truth. How to convert it into what you sadhaks call as liberation or

benediction- freedom from the sorrow for ever !

 

Thanks, once again.

 

Michael Hagen

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Thanks Shashikalaji. Certainly that story depicts the role of VIVEKA

( Conscience) in the best possible manner. That story is the story

of each one of us , having been quoted in YOGA VAASHISHTHA –

unquestionably one of the most respected and profound heritage

Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Viveka – how does it discriminate?

What does it discriminate. How it functions. What is the result of

disrespect to Conscience.? What is the result of respecting to it?

All these factors are covered in this story. I had covered this

story upto " HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE

CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH KIND, AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS

AWAKENED BY ME FOR A WHILE. "

 

A human being is seen constantly by VIVEKA. Viveka remains as a

spectator to your conduct and when you pay respect to it , it takes

over the responsibility of guide, friend and philosopher to you. If

you keep listening to the dictates of Viveka, it can lead you to

Liberation. This story is complete story in itself of a man's

journey into human life – from Bondage to Liberation. Conscience

holds you BY FORCE. It snatches away your logical mind. It snatches

away your very tranquillity, peace. Nothing torments a human more

than his conscience ! Condition is – you must not ignore it

consistently – under sway of desires.

 

Before I continue with the story let me request sadhaks , to refresh

themselves by reading the text and responses again. It was explained

that DESIRES for worldly pleasures, ( Maya) is responsible for a

man's agony and lack of peace. When a person gets utterly helpless,

caught in the web of its own mind, own desires- a voice comes- a

powerful voice from deep inside –

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain?

 

This, Dear Sadhaks , is the voice of VIVEKA asking to JEEVA !

Jeeva !! That Jeeva who now is nothing except EGO !! Jeeva forgets

who actually he is ! He considers himself to be body, to be say

Vyas N B, to be an assumed entity. Conscience tells him, explains

him what actually he is. Conscience asks questions. Conscience lets

him " discriminate " . Conscience holds him BY FORCE ! Read the

questions asked by Viveka to Jeeva ( Ego- Embodied self) ! Admire in

the meantime the depth and simplicity of the questions.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Friends

 

Thanks to Jee Jee for recalling Mike's unconcluded Q. I think it

will make us all wiser. Conscience or viveka as it is called in

native language is experienced/felt by all of us sometime or other.

I agree with Mike Keenor that it must be discovered to be

beyond " intellect " . I think conscience prevents a human being from

abstaining from evil deeds. Still if a man sins, then conscience

even punishes internally a man and distorts his psyche. Conscience

if it is hurt then never allows a person to remain at peace. Hard

core criminals perhaps disrespect the conscience and then only they

can commit evil deeds. Conscience to me is like a police man present

in you. I am happy that there is religion in the world which not

only analyses this extra terrestial faculty in a human being, and

leads what you call soul to utilise it properly and then reap

highest rewards. Wonderful ! It is astonishing to find that there

are Saints of the class of Swami Ramsukhdas who can really throw

light on such an element and can guide humanity at large on proper

utilisation of such element. I also agree to the latest post of Mr

Pratap Bhatt who so eloquently explained the element. Of course Mr

Vyas N B and all other learned sadhaks have thrown light on the

element. It is indeed great to be part of this Gita Talk forum

 

Thank You all

 

Luca B

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

I request GT Moderators to merge an earlier not fully concluded Q on

Story of mind from Yoga Vaashishtha under this question.(It was a Q

by Michael Hagen , I recall).

 

When Mr Conscience takes over the reigns ... There are plenty of

questions. Plenty of soul searching. You start " discriminating " !

You start thinking - Am I body? Who feels the " bondage " ? Certainly

the body is not feeling the bondage! Who will go to heaven or hell?

Certainly body will not go! You start thinking deeply as to who you

actually are. Why you are.

 

In that Michael Hagen question ( Story of mind- In GT group it was

listed under the Q - Biggest astonishment of the world) which due to

our going on vacations could not be concluded , the story takes you

to conscience. It is conscience who holds that man and asks - " What

is this? Who are you? Why do you run in vain? "

 

If GT Moderators can kindly merge that thread under this Question-

it will help the Sadhaks immensely- particularly because writer of

that story was Mr Conscience ! Alternately this posting may be

listed under that Q.

 

Thanks Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

PASTED PORTIONS OF MESSAGE. TO READ ENTIRE STRING PLEASE VISIT :

/message/1764

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Dear Aspirants of Peace

 

On this question , though I dont have much to state as my knowledge

of Gita is very very limited. But recently a friend gave me an

Indian Holy text in which the following short story was there. It

appeared very surprising story to me. I wonder if any one can throw

more light on it.

 

" THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN.

WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED , THAT FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND

EYES, STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF,

CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN MOUTH.

THEN, GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST. THEN, AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING

AND LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH

KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY ME FOR A

WHILE.

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do nothing " . " You

are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " . THUS , SAYING ,

HE WEPT . THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN

THAT HUGE FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT

FOREST IS THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

My question to this forum is to explain the above story. Who held

whom? Who asked questions ? What is the substance ? What is the

moral?

 

Michael Hagen

----------------

In Gita Yudhistir was asked the same question and he replied that

the greatest surprise was that though everyone knows that he has to

die someday, we all behave and go through life as if we are going to

live forever. That was the greatest of surprises in this world.

The moral of Michael Hagen's story is that we are all lost souls

going about the motions of living, without knowing what we are

doing, without knowing the purpose of our existence. We are like the

man who runs and keeps on falling in the well because we do

thoughtless things over and over again. Only a God-realised person

or through meditation can one know the real meaning of life.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

------------------

 

Hari Om

 

You have indeed presented to all of us , the true and real story of

each of us. All sadhaks should feel grateful to you. Sadhaks like

Michael and our Mike Keenor are real and respectable examples of

how a soul gallops towards the TRUTH once a desire or need has arisen

in it to find out the Divine . Soul recognises not any distinctions

of caste, creed, colour, country,. A burning desire is more than

enough to progress in spiritual uplifting.

 

This story in the first reading appears " mindless " though it is

exclusively about the " mind " - a funny story but very serious. For

serious sadhaks such stories set an order, a process of " sadhana " ….

And lead them straight to their goal- freedom from pain /sorrow …

systematically … step by step. For intelligent people such stories

are a challenge , a riddle, a reminder ! It is too brief in size but

too big in effect- like an arrow.

 

This story covers substance of . Soul ( SAT) , Conscience,. Jeeva,

Ego, Mind, Intellect, Destiny, Svabhav ( nature/habit) , Jagat (

World), Worldly Pleasures, Pain of the soul, Desires, MAYA ( Avidya,

agyaan, darkness, illusion, ignorance, stupidity, jugglery, ) ,

Knowledge ( CHIT, gyaan, light ) , Bondage, Liberation, , and

Jagdish ( God, Paramatma, ANANDA,- Divine, natural, absolute not

relative-, BLISS, PEACE ) This story is timeless. When we come

across such ocean deep stories , we cant help feeling proud of our

Religion, Saints and Sages, Heritage, and Holy Scriptures of eternal

Sanatan Dharma.

 

This " gaagar main saagar " ( Ocean in water pot) story first

thoroughly agitates and astonishes even the best of the human egos,

intellects and minds ; then gives them a powerful shock ; then

pacifies /satisfies/floors them fully. And then of course silences

them . In the end it makes YOU meet YOURSELF in SAT CHIT ANANDA

FORM.!

 

This story is the state of JIVA in his present form and is applicable

to all of us. It starts with Bondage and ends with Liberation and the

JIVA claiming the SATCHITANANDA FORM of Paramatma. Nothing explains

more eloquently the role of MAYA than this powerful short story. Who

else can be the writer of this story than CONSCIENCE which is direct

agent of Paramatma living in the human body along with JIVA ? Like

two birds on a tree – referred once by Mike Keenor in one of his

messages !! Who else can hold the soul so powerfully and ask such

direct questions than CONSCIENCE ?

 

It is from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma –

called YOGA VAASHISHTHA - where Sage Vaashishtha teaches Lord

Rama .

 

Balance in next message. In the meantime serious sadhaks should re

read this story – seriously & peacefully, in order to gain out of it.

The best way to read it is to " feel " it so that your mind becomes a

scene and you become the seer and your conscience starts

responding. " To feel " – put yourself into equanimous zone in which

zone your conscience always resides – be like a court judge- no

personal likings / dislikings. Read it as a challenge to your mental

equipment. Believe for once in what ever clues I have given here in

above.

 

1. THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN

 

This world is the forest in which we all, with minds, wander about.

It is a forest because with the cool air and beauty of nature ,

there are thorns also. There are wild animals also and chances of

our getting lost too. Being forest there are no ways visible. We

have to make our own ways. All the beauty and dangers of forest are

present in human life. - of every body- no exceptions.

 

2 WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED, THAT FEARFUL ONE

 

We are not peaceful. We are confused - constantly seeking pleasure

and happiness. We are fearful. We don't know what the next moment

might have in store for us. We may die anytime, anywhere. We are

confused as well as fearful because we are basically split at the

sub conscience level. While body, mind, ego etc " natuarally " remain

estalished in prakrithi (world/nature) only being part of them, but

we don't belong to nature. It is law that fear develops when one

enters the arena to which he doesnot belong or ONLY when when is in

company of " others " .. When we get attracted/connected

with " stranger/other " world, fear and confusion stick with us

permanently, (which fear goes ONLY when we disconnect from world).

Constant changes and uncertainties of the world also make us

confused and fearful.

 

3 WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

We are equipped in this forest with sharp intellect and vision,

imagination of mind. With capacity to work hard, and control other

species, animals, and fellow men ( a thousand hands) and an

exceptional vision ( a thousand eyes) we set about in this world to

seek pleasure and peace. We seek help of mind. We make efforts to

fulfill our desires.We want to be the best, the wealthiest, the most

intelligent, the most knowledgeable, the healthiest, the greatest.

We want to have every worldly comfort which our Dear and our own

mind can conceive! We don't want to lose. We always want to win. We

are proud of our mind and our intellect (vision). Mind gives a

solution to our eternal desire of being peaceful and happy. DESIRE

FOR WORLDLY THINGS. Since we like mind, we have connected with mind,

WE ACCEPT the suggestions of mind. We start seeking worldly

pleasures.

 

4 STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF, CRYING

AND RUNNING ...

 

Once mind desires, the sorrow and pain is a must in all

circumstances. What else we can do in the beginning, middle or end

of worldly desires except beating ourselves, brooding, fretting? The

beatings referred in the story are the blows of fancies,

imaginations and whims. They are indeed caused by one self . We only

hurt ourselves and no body else when we are in fits of anger, greed,

anxieties, ill temper, attachment ... Desires! We keep hurting

ourselves and sufferring mental agonies and turmoils, inner storms,

agitations, turbulences, fears and what not. We cry ..... We try to

run away from adverse circumstances caused exclusively due to your

mind desiring worldly pleasures and things. Running away from

adversity but again desiring favourable circumstances !! Sometimes

the desire is to " get pleasure " , sometime it is to " remove pains " .

Desire continues, subjects change!!

 

5 FELL BLINDLY INTO WELL WITH HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Desires have hidden mouth. They blind the desirer too. At the outset

they look goals, pleasant. Health, wealth, fame, affluence, power,

position, status, flashy cars, spacious home, right, virtue,

authority, respect, .... great feelings. Desires are beautiful.

Pains come into experience in abundance later.

 

BLINDLY .... You get blinded by desires. Pains get hidden.This

process of blocking your vision is in 3 stages. In the first stage,

the truth is as hidden as fire is hidden by smoke. In the second

stage, the reality is as not visible as your face in a mirror with a

layer of dust on it. In the final stage the gets as concealed as a

fetus in the womb !!!

 

FELL/WELL : " fell blindly into a well " here in this story means Jiva

going to hell . Here one life time ends. Desires, (kaam), reaction

of anger emanating out of unfullfilled desires ( krodha) and greed

arising out of fulfilled desires ( lobha) are three gates of hell .

( Refer BG 16:21) . Hence " well " referred here can only be " hell " .

 

Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is

reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell,

 

6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME.

 

He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " -

habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes

back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be

substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of

past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of

destiny.

 

HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING

HIMSELF OFTEN,

 

Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He

still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but

decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove,

to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something,

to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to

get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more

worldly pleasures. But all worldly .

 

He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of

efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the

desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a

decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not

haunt him badly.

 

7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING

 

But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too.

Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in

conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start

coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys

labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been

described as

 

" AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES "

 

8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got

exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is

back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and

same hell again ! Because desires continue.

 

Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of

pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And

continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the

attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the

connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect

because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal

body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only

do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at

the first time !!

 

Any views Shashikalaji ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna.

 

VYAS N B

-----------------------------

Dear Mike,

 

It is an extra-ordinary story of a spiritual seeker and his

observation on himself transparently. I felt as if it is told of me

and my own foolishness! Thanks for sharing it. This is my

interpretation of the story.

 

Story: FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST

 

… is the confused jungle of thoughts in one's perception.

 

Story: MAN WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED

 

… is the ego (or individual) lost in it.

 

Story: FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

… is the infitude of variance in the perceived world perpetually

throwing mutually conflicitng fears and desires on the individual.

 

Story: STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF

 

… means afterall the individual himself is harming himself thanks to

his ignorance.

 

 

Story: CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN

MOUTH

 

… means the lamenting fool drowns oneself beneath the ignorance of

depression in the name of sadhana shutting down one's sensory

operatus fearful of its transparency on one's reality.

 

Story: GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST

 

… the fool entered into silence with no appreciation cannot

withstand its oblivious nature and runs back into the same life full

of chaotic thoughts and actions.

 

Story: AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING AND

LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

… the story of repeated convolutions of delusions, illusions and

halluscinations with the worldly interaction continues till one's

tendencies (Vasana in Sanskrit) continue to haunt oneself.

 

Story: HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS

OF SUCH KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY

ME FOR A WHILE. HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you?

Why do you run in vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do

nothing " . " You are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " .

 

… the inner wisdom keeps its check on one's misconduct in one's

spiritual progress and acts as a catalyst to force one into self-

examination to root-cause one's problem rather than scrutinizing the

environment … realizes that the environment was never the enemy, but

oneself hiding from oneself perpetually … the individual comfounded

not understanding (not withstanding) what is going on wonders, " Who

am I? Am I not my enemy in the first place? Why am I running

frantically? Even if I run for ever, can I escape from myself?

Because of my association with my image, I am corrupt … is it not

time to drop this image? "

 

Story: THUS , SAYING , HE WEPT .

 

… But … how to drop that image – that is where, Mike, I am stuck

personally!

 

THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN THAT HUGE

FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT FOREST IS

THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

… definitely … the confused thoughts and actions still swarm me …

thanks to the image I am unable to let go … that is where, Mike, I

am stuck personally … I suppose the image will drop out one day …

when, I realize that I do not need to hide in the well … when I

realize the wandering itself is WONDERFUL in itself … when I realize

that there need not be push of desire to get out of a well and there

need not be any pull of fear drowning me into its oblivion … when I

realize that the very fear and desire are rooted in the very image I

am holding on to … when I realize that I don't need to frantically

recycle myself between oblivious wandering in the world and drowning

in the well … probably by continuous self-scrutiny in spite of such

frantic wandering around and drwoning within!!

 

Thanks for the WONDERFUL fact to teach me with its WONDERFUL

transparency.

 

THANK YOU. It is really WONDERFUL to receive the knowledge which

alone can eliminate the oblivious darkness haunting me within.

 

THANK YOU.

 

Deep Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Falling prey to " Maya " is the most astonishing wonderment in my view.

 

Some supplementary thoughts to the story explained by Tamma

Bhaiyya :

 

In the forest of worldly life our mind gets confused Jee ! and

there is a fear arising naturally in us because basically we are

permanent/ complete/never changing/ blissful - avinaashi/sahaj

sukhraasi Jee !!! But the world that this mind is attached to is -

temporary /

incomplete/deficient/ever changing/ ever sorrowful !!

 

Because of " svabhaav " (habits/individual attraction to the nature)

and past deeds/karma (association with strangers i.e the world) - we

desire worldly things and pleasure Jee !

 

Our desires are many, but as such only one Jee! ... Whatever we

think through mind .. Must happen Jee! The desires come in the form

of " my likings " ( Raag) and " my dislikings " (Dvesha). However, the

bitter truth is that simply by desiring we cannot get " worldly

pleasures " Jee, we can only get Daddy ! But that Daddy is

beyond " mind " Jee. Worldly pleasures are " natural " to mind, because

mind belongs to the world Jee, so does intellect and ego Jee( notion

of me/mine).

This mind (which I had said before is better if thrown in the

dustbin) seeks world and worldly pleasures only Jee.

 

This mind cheats us Jee in this regard. We like absolute fools

believe that " desiring " is necessary for getting worldly things. We

forget under the illusion caused by me/mine notion ( MAYA) that

while we don't desire sickness or death or adversity, still we get

it Jee. Even highly educated people, possessing a thousand hands and

eyes, say - " You must desire. The world will come to a grinding

hault if you stop desiring Jee. They think that if you don't have

desires, you are dead " Jee!

 

What a belief, Jee !! How wonderful, Jee!! How surprising !! As if

they desired to take birth, to grow, to fall sick, to deteriorate,

to die and as if they really selected their parents, children,

spouses, relatives, circumstances, situations, incidences, states,

happennings, colour, caste, creed, country, time, age !!! WHAT A

MAYA ! WHAT AN ILLUSION !!

 

That the most astonishing wonderment in human life, Jee! Maya !

Ignorance!! Stupidity !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having

complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not

been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers

immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps

cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and

permanent pain.

 

Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment

of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is

cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not

bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind ,

brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is

no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we

get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000

dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire

has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had

receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow

till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind,

and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !!

 

Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more

desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as

well as in sorrow,mind cheats us.

 

But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment

being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our

fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They

continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They

are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every

wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God !

 

When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly

suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by

telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the

time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that

happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is

responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr

Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was

bad " ) !

 

But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No !

They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my

vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me .....

mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ......

Non sense !!

 

What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear

Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ?

Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from "

sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) ,

part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave

and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !!

 

This is Maya , Jee !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

There is nothing greater than Paramatma. Whatever great thing you

have received, Paramatma is greater than even that. If you get

anything greater than Paramatma (surprisingly), then please,

immediately share will all of us, so that we also come to know. But

as such there is not such a thing, or else it would have not escaped

Swamiji's sight. Thank you !

 

Sarvottam

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

SIMPLE PROCESS OF AWAKENING OF CONSCIENCE

 

The world has got a peculiarity. It always cheats, it always commits

treachery. In fact the world does not cheat , rather cheating occurs

in the world. Reason is that we get attracted towards the world to

get pleasures. But in the end- as a law- every pleasure essentially

gets converted into pain- By sheer nature of the pleasure. Whatever

rises, sets. If a certain pleasure has come to you, it has come to

you only to go! At the end of its tenure, the pleasure ends. Hence

when you get pain, sorrow, unhappiness, when you feel helplessness ,

THEN AN ADVICE , A REMINDER " comes into your INTELLECT " -

that " Nothing is mine in the world "

 

This reminder, this thought, this feeling, this experience AWAKENS

YOUR VIVEKA provided you know how to make use of that reminder!!

 

If even after getting pain, sorrow, helplessness- you still desire

to become happy- your conscience will not fully awaken. Because the

very cause of pain is " desire for happiness " . If you attempt to

remove " dukha " (sorrow) by getting " pleasures " - you are

unconsciously increasing, multiplying dukha only. Because the cause

of sorrow is desire for happiness and nothing else.

 

Therefore- WE MUST- when we receive pain/sorrow- relinquish the

desire for happiness ! On the other hand we must strive to find out

the reasons for pain/sorrow.

 

Says Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, categorically_

 

WHEN YOU RELINQUISH THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS AND WHEN YOU SEARCH THE

REASONS FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS YOUR VIVEKA (CONSCIENCE) AWAKENS !

 

Satsanga then greatly helps you. As Mike Keenor said-

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

As Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj said-

 

BINU SATSANGA VIVEKA NA HOI ( You don't acquire power of

discrimination without Satsanga)

 

To be continued- Conscience and Paramatma Realisation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Sadhaks ! When I asked this question I never thought that

deliberations will elevate to such heights. Indeed, as stated by

Sadhika Prepetina this group has a divinity of its own. What

surprises me is that in the same posting Brother Mike talks about

of importance of Satsanga, quotes BG 16:24 and in the same posting

Vyasji also talks about Satsanga being instrumental in awakening of

conscience. How common the truth becomes when it is a real truth !!

Unbelievable ! Jee Jee Shashikalaji " s Bhajan indeed reflects the

crux of what is conscience. Her example of a thief brings out a

common sentiment across all the human beings and precisely explains

what is " conscience " ! Pratapji has given absolutely dot on time

the dictionary meaning. On top of it, extracts from messages of

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What more can be more divine than

that !! Nothing pleased me more when Vyasji quickly reciprocated to

request of Prepetina to conclude fully my questions.

 

May this Forum live for ever.

 

Bandook Singh

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is that Viveka or discrimination is different and is

used in a much wider sense. My understanding is that " Vivek " is a

spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Re: Conscience , It's Role, It's Awakening as per Gita

 

 

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

------------------------------

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION

 

Jay Shri Krishna

 

I have one question. In Gita (7 - 4,5) God has described his 2 kinds

of nature: " Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and ego-

these constitute My nature divided into eight parts. This is indeed

My lower (apara/insentient) nature; but different from it, O mighty-

armed is My higher (para/sentient)nature- the life-element (Jiva),

by which this universe is sustained. "

 

As I understand except these 10 elements (including God) nothing is

left out. So where does viveka (conscience) come in picture?

 

Thanks,

Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

Sadhak Varunji has asked a real genuine question and in my view THE

BEST QUESTION so far in last 6 months on Holy Gita.

 

He can be replied in many ways. Swamiji equated VIVEKA with God and

categorically stated that VIVEKA gets converted into God

Realisation. Since God is one of 1o elements, Viveka gets covered

there. Conscience is voice of God!

 

I also feel that elements like Equanimity, discrimination ( Viveka),

nishkaam bhav- they are functions too! What is wrong in clubbing

them and seeing them as functions of " stablised intellect " referred

in BG 2 ! Intellect once it " stablises " becomes changeless !

 

Thirdly, the pure soul ( self) has powers to

associate/disassociate/accept/reject/connect/disconnect. Pure soul

has only that power and nothing else- Swamiji categorically stated

that. Now granted that- the power of discrimination(viveka)

automatically becomes power of Self as discrimination is essential

to determine whether to accept or reject etc. Self is part of 10 !

 

Sadhak Varunji should come back if he is not convinced. He must !

Please go deep in this. It is a real genuine query. I will also come

back if I find from Swamiji's discourses/books more on this.

 

Thanks Varunji.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

There are long explanations In short human being have the mind

having mind intellect which creates thoughts in the mind and then it

goes for its action. There is a conscience means atman which finally

decides what to do ?

 

This is the process of our handling our life. When our cosciousness

reaches the final stage it comes nearer to God. Then there are

chances for liberation ( a long process )

 

Thanks

 

Truly yours

 

S S Bhatt

-------------------------------

 

Very interesting.

 

Thank you.

 

Warm regards

Captain S.M.Divekar

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Firstly I extend a greatful Thanks to you to include me in your team.

With Respect and Devine love

Shiv Shankar

-----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I fully agree with Sadhak Pratapji Bhatt. His description of

Conscience is very timely. When the " reflected " intelligences ( in

the words of Swamiji- Viveka- as quoted by Brother Mike Keenor under

another Q) which are only Pure Consciousness , are intent on or on

the point of willing or ideation, then , they attain to the state of

individual souls or individualised consciousness- JUST AS WATER

ASSUMES THE STATE OF WAVES !

 

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that there are two ways to

awaken your conscience. Sorrow and Satsanga ! Here in this story the

man is tormented by affliction and sorrow. Serious sadhaks hence

forth should meticulously read each and word of this story. Read

between the lines too! Read rather " feel " ! Put your self

into " equanimous " zone and then read. We are reaching climax. We are

only a couple of steps away from benediction!

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " WHAT IS THIS? WHO ARE YOU? WHY DO YOU RUN IN

VAIN ?

 

And that voice asks you questions ! What is this? Are you supposed

to be in this shape? What have you achieved so far? Only that which

must leave you !! To achieve what must leave you- is no achievement

in reality. A human keeps wasting time and effort in achieving

temporary, perishables and momentaries.... What else? What else we

can achieve by using temporary tools like mind, body, intellect ?

WHO ARE YOU ? Are you what you are reflecting /believing/assuming

yourself to be? Are you the name by which you are called? Are you

the the ego or mind or intellect or the body? If yes, then how you

are witnessing changes in ego, mind, intellect, body ? Can " seer " be

the " seen " ? WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN? How much compromises, sins you

have made to fulfill your desires? Have your desires been fulfilled?

Do you now find yourself into that state where nothing remains to be

done or got or known by you?

 

These are the " discriminatory " questions. Real questions. These are

asked by conscience to Jeeva. What is Jeeva? Ego ! " Jeeva " resides

in " ego " - in " causal body " - in " ignorance zone " !

 

Hence the question - WHO ARE YOU ? - is replied in this great story

by EGO !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

I've read Ji Ji Shashikalaji's article deeply also I recall her

dialog between Jiva and Maya, and also appreciate Michael Hagen's

gut feeling concept, I would like to go a little deeper.

I think I told this story before, in the current light I think I

would like to look at it again and add an addendum.

A true story I read when I was a young man:

A reporter for a newspaper, used to work himself very hard, living on

coffee and junk etc., but he had the habit of dropping out for a

complete break for a few weeks. This time he rented a cell(room) in a

monastery of a silent order. He took to meditation/contemplation,

tuning into the ethos of the place. He took to sitting in the back of

the chapel to listen to the monks as they chanted their devotions.

He would then leave prior to the end of the service.

One morning he remained alone after the monks had left and was drawn

before the alter, whereby he collapsed in grief pain horror spiritual

agony self loathing remorse outreaching and so on. And found he was

not alone, a very old monk had returned, comforted him, assured him

this was not unknown to him. Of course this journalist was never the

same again. I never thought it would happen to me!

The heart can release suddenly, as it were, like an explosion of

love, overpowering, one changes there and then.

I think I will leave it there for now.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Conscience when it awakens asks questions. It straight away attacks

the very roots of your existence! " Me and Mine " - Ego !

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " me " . WHO ARE YOU?

Body or soul? Temporary or permanent? Perishable or imperishable?

Sentient or inert? Seer or the seen? Kshetra or Kshetragya? Mortal

or immortal? Ever sorrowful or ever blissful?

 

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " mine " ! What is yours?

The world and the worldly people or Paramatma? Or worldly things or

body? Who is yours? To whom do you belong?

 

SATSANGA- association with virtuous people, Saints and Sages ( like

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) , association with Truth, reading of

Holy Scriptures ( Like Gita, Ramayana, Bible etc) , membership of

selfless forums like this Gita Talk Group etc- provides you the

answers to these questions.

SORROW propels/ raises such questions. SATSANGA answers such

questions.How easy! Hence Swamiji sings glories of adverse

circumstances in human life. Therefore it is sorrow and satsanga-

that help you in getting liberated. It is our foolishness that we

run away from sorrows!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Thanks GT Moderators !

 

VIVEKA - THE POWER OF DISCRIMINATION

 

When Mr Viveka takes over the hold of you, there are lots of

questions. There is a lot soul searching. Your peace gets snatched.

Conscience forces you to listen to him.You have choice still of

disregarding him, but only after hearing him !!

 

Viveka (Conscience) takes you beyond desires/mind ! It

discriminates. Viveka only and not mind that suggest to you

that " desires are insatiable " . Gita also suggests that only. Can

fire extinguish if you keep adding fuel into it?

 

You want to have good spouse, children, parents, lot of money,

robust health, fame - so that you may become happy. This is

suggestion of mind.

 

Viveka confronts you with a counter question. Whether those who have

better spouses, children, more money than you, etc - Are they

happy ?? Happiness is not in presence of worldly things, it resides

in absence of desires for worldly things.

Your mind wants to change the circumstances, situations to suit it,

to suit the desres/goals ! It never takes easy/simple ways. Your

conscience tells You that one can never change the circumstances, a

simple way is to " change yourself " . Pain lies in feeling of

deficiency within. That deficiency gets created when you desire!!

You consider your self to be big, if you have lot of money! Now who

is bigger? You or money ? We make a mockery of ourselves by

desiring. What we have to get, we shall get, irrespective of our

desiring for the same!! Worldly things will not stop coming to you

if you stop desiring- only pains will cease!! How easy ! How simple!!

 

YOUR MIND CHEATS YOU JEE WHEN IT SUGGESTS THAT " To renounce desires

is very difficult " . Ask your mind - " WHY DONT YOU SUGGEST THAT TO

FULFILL DESIRES IS IMPOSSIBLE? " That mind will never suggest to

you ! That only Mr Conscience can tell you.

 

Wake up .... Jee ... O Dear Child of God ... Wake up !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

Dear Aspirants of Peace !

 

Thank you very much for recalling my question. It was so near the

conclusion , yet it became so far. Frankly, I thought that steam has

run out of this group when real concluding time came. I even

considered unsubscribing but something in me stopped (

conscience?) ! Looking forward to the deliberations.

 

Conscience according to me is " gut feeling " , a sixth sense,

something which is present in a human being definitely. Something

which is capable of tormenting a sinner. Something related with

inner peace of a human. I agree with Sadhaks that it should be

respected. However I am eager to know how it leads you to ultimate

truth. How to convert it into what you sadhaks call as liberation or

benediction- freedom from the sorrow for ever !

 

Thanks, once again.

 

Michael Hagen

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Thanks Shashikalaji. Certainly that story depicts the role of VIVEKA

( Conscience) in the best possible manner. That story is the story

of each one of us , having been quoted in YOGA VAASHISHTHA –

unquestionably one of the most respected and profound heritage

Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Viveka – how does it discriminate?

What does it discriminate. How it functions. What is the result of

disrespect to Conscience.? What is the result of respecting to it?

All these factors are covered in this story. I had covered this

story upto " HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE

CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH KIND, AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS

AWAKENED BY ME FOR A WHILE. "

 

A human being is seen constantly by VIVEKA. Viveka remains as a

spectator to your conduct and when you pay respect to it , it takes

over the responsibility of guide, friend and philosopher to you. If

you keep listening to the dictates of Viveka, it can lead you to

Liberation. This story is complete story in itself of a man's

journey into human life – from Bondage to Liberation. Conscience

holds you BY FORCE. It snatches away your logical mind. It snatches

away your very tranquillity, peace. Nothing torments a human more

than his conscience ! Condition is – you must not ignore it

consistently – under sway of desires.

 

Before I continue with the story let me request sadhaks , to refresh

themselves by reading the text and responses again. It was explained

that DESIRES for worldly pleasures, ( Maya) is responsible for a

man's agony and lack of peace. When a person gets utterly helpless,

caught in the web of its own mind, own desires- a voice comes- a

powerful voice from deep inside –

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain?

 

This, Dear Sadhaks , is the voice of VIVEKA asking to JEEVA !

Jeeva !! That Jeeva who now is nothing except EGO !! Jeeva forgets

who actually he is ! He considers himself to be body, to be say

Vyas N B, to be an assumed entity. Conscience tells him, explains

him what actually he is. Conscience asks questions. Conscience lets

him " discriminate " . Conscience holds him BY FORCE ! Read the

questions asked by Viveka to Jeeva ( Ego- Embodied self) ! Admire in

the meantime the depth and simplicity of the questions.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Friends

 

Thanks to Jee Jee for recalling Mike's unconcluded Q. I think it

will make us all wiser. Conscience or viveka as it is called in

native language is experienced/felt by all of us sometime or other.

I agree with Mike Keenor that it must be discovered to be

beyond " intellect " . I think conscience prevents a human being from

abstaining from evil deeds. Still if a man sins, then conscience

even punishes internally a man and distorts his psyche. Conscience

if it is hurt then never allows a person to remain at peace. Hard

core criminals perhaps disrespect the conscience and then only they

can commit evil deeds. Conscience to me is like a police man present

in you. I am happy that there is religion in the world which not

only analyses this extra terrestial faculty in a human being, and

leads what you call soul to utilise it properly and then reap

highest rewards. Wonderful ! It is astonishing to find that there

are Saints of the class of Swami Ramsukhdas who can really throw

light on such an element and can guide humanity at large on proper

utilisation of such element. I also agree to the latest post of Mr

Pratap Bhatt who so eloquently explained the element. Of course Mr

Vyas N B and all other learned sadhaks have thrown light on the

element. It is indeed great to be part of this Gita Talk forum

 

Thank You all

 

Luca B

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

I request GT Moderators to merge an earlier not fully concluded Q on

Story of mind from Yoga Vaashishtha under this question.(It was a Q

by Michael Hagen , I recall).

 

When Mr Conscience takes over the reigns ... There are plenty of

questions. Plenty of soul searching. You start " discriminating " !

You start thinking - Am I body? Who feels the " bondage " ? Certainly

the body is not feeling the bondage! Who will go to heaven or hell?

Certainly body will not go! You start thinking deeply as to who you

actually are. Why you are.

 

In that Michael Hagen question ( Story of mind- In GT group it was

listed under the Q - Biggest astonishment of the world) which due to

our going on vacations could not be concluded , the story takes you

to conscience. It is conscience who holds that man and asks - " What

is this? Who are you? Why do you run in vain? "

 

If GT Moderators can kindly merge that thread under this Question-

it will help the Sadhaks immensely- particularly because writer of

that story was Mr Conscience ! Alternately this posting may be

listed under that Q.

 

Thanks Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

PASTED PORTIONS OF MESSAGE. TO READ ENTIRE STRING PLEASE VISIT :

/message/1764

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Dear Aspirants of Peace

 

On this question , though I dont have much to state as my knowledge

of Gita is very very limited. But recently a friend gave me an

Indian Holy text in which the following short story was there. It

appeared very surprising story to me. I wonder if any one can throw

more light on it.

 

" THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN.

WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED , THAT FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND

EYES, STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF,

CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN MOUTH.

THEN, GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST. THEN, AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING

AND LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH

KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY ME FOR A

WHILE.

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do nothing " . " You

are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " . THUS , SAYING ,

HE WEPT . THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN

THAT HUGE FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT

FOREST IS THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

My question to this forum is to explain the above story. Who held

whom? Who asked questions ? What is the substance ? What is the

moral?

 

Michael Hagen

----------------

In Gita Yudhistir was asked the same question and he replied that

the greatest surprise was that though everyone knows that he has to

die someday, we all behave and go through life as if we are going to

live forever. That was the greatest of surprises in this world.

The moral of Michael Hagen's story is that we are all lost souls

going about the motions of living, without knowing what we are

doing, without knowing the purpose of our existence. We are like the

man who runs and keeps on falling in the well because we do

thoughtless things over and over again. Only a God-realised person

or through meditation can one know the real meaning of life.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

------------------

 

Hari Om

 

You have indeed presented to all of us , the true and real story of

each of us. All sadhaks should feel grateful to you. Sadhaks like

Michael and our Mike Keenor are real and respectable examples of

how a soul gallops towards the TRUTH once a desire or need has arisen

in it to find out the Divine . Soul recognises not any distinctions

of caste, creed, colour, country,. A burning desire is more than

enough to progress in spiritual uplifting.

 

This story in the first reading appears " mindless " though it is

exclusively about the " mind " - a funny story but very serious. For

serious sadhaks such stories set an order, a process of " sadhana " ….

And lead them straight to their goal- freedom from pain /sorrow …

systematically … step by step. For intelligent people such stories

are a challenge , a riddle, a reminder ! It is too brief in size but

too big in effect- like an arrow.

 

This story covers substance of . Soul ( SAT) , Conscience,. Jeeva,

Ego, Mind, Intellect, Destiny, Svabhav ( nature/habit) , Jagat (

World), Worldly Pleasures, Pain of the soul, Desires, MAYA ( Avidya,

agyaan, darkness, illusion, ignorance, stupidity, jugglery, ) ,

Knowledge ( CHIT, gyaan, light ) , Bondage, Liberation, , and

Jagdish ( God, Paramatma, ANANDA,- Divine, natural, absolute not

relative-, BLISS, PEACE ) This story is timeless. When we come

across such ocean deep stories , we cant help feeling proud of our

Religion, Saints and Sages, Heritage, and Holy Scriptures of eternal

Sanatan Dharma.

 

This " gaagar main saagar " ( Ocean in water pot) story first

thoroughly agitates and astonishes even the best of the human egos,

intellects and minds ; then gives them a powerful shock ; then

pacifies /satisfies/floors them fully. And then of course silences

them . In the end it makes YOU meet YOURSELF in SAT CHIT ANANDA

FORM.!

 

This story is the state of JIVA in his present form and is applicable

to all of us. It starts with Bondage and ends with Liberation and the

JIVA claiming the SATCHITANANDA FORM of Paramatma. Nothing explains

more eloquently the role of MAYA than this powerful short story. Who

else can be the writer of this story than CONSCIENCE which is direct

agent of Paramatma living in the human body along with JIVA ? Like

two birds on a tree – referred once by Mike Keenor in one of his

messages !! Who else can hold the soul so powerfully and ask such

direct questions than CONSCIENCE ?

 

It is from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma –

called YOGA VAASHISHTHA - where Sage Vaashishtha teaches Lord

Rama .

 

Balance in next message. In the meantime serious sadhaks should re

read this story – seriously & peacefully, in order to gain out of it.

The best way to read it is to " feel " it so that your mind becomes a

scene and you become the seer and your conscience starts

responding. " To feel " – put yourself into equanimous zone in which

zone your conscience always resides – be like a court judge- no

personal likings / dislikings. Read it as a challenge to your mental

equipment. Believe for once in what ever clues I have given here in

above.

 

1. THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN

 

This world is the forest in which we all, with minds, wander about.

It is a forest because with the cool air and beauty of nature ,

there are thorns also. There are wild animals also and chances of

our getting lost too. Being forest there are no ways visible. We

have to make our own ways. All the beauty and dangers of forest are

present in human life. - of every body- no exceptions.

 

2 WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED, THAT FEARFUL ONE

 

We are not peaceful. We are confused - constantly seeking pleasure

and happiness. We are fearful. We don't know what the next moment

might have in store for us. We may die anytime, anywhere. We are

confused as well as fearful because we are basically split at the

sub conscience level. While body, mind, ego etc " natuarally " remain

estalished in prakrithi (world/nature) only being part of them, but

we don't belong to nature. It is law that fear develops when one

enters the arena to which he doesnot belong or ONLY when when is in

company of " others " .. When we get attracted/connected

with " stranger/other " world, fear and confusion stick with us

permanently, (which fear goes ONLY when we disconnect from world).

Constant changes and uncertainties of the world also make us

confused and fearful.

 

3 WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

We are equipped in this forest with sharp intellect and vision,

imagination of mind. With capacity to work hard, and control other

species, animals, and fellow men ( a thousand hands) and an

exceptional vision ( a thousand eyes) we set about in this world to

seek pleasure and peace. We seek help of mind. We make efforts to

fulfill our desires.We want to be the best, the wealthiest, the most

intelligent, the most knowledgeable, the healthiest, the greatest.

We want to have every worldly comfort which our Dear and our own

mind can conceive! We don't want to lose. We always want to win. We

are proud of our mind and our intellect (vision). Mind gives a

solution to our eternal desire of being peaceful and happy. DESIRE

FOR WORLDLY THINGS. Since we like mind, we have connected with mind,

WE ACCEPT the suggestions of mind. We start seeking worldly

pleasures.

 

4 STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF, CRYING

AND RUNNING ...

 

Once mind desires, the sorrow and pain is a must in all

circumstances. What else we can do in the beginning, middle or end

of worldly desires except beating ourselves, brooding, fretting? The

beatings referred in the story are the blows of fancies,

imaginations and whims. They are indeed caused by one self . We only

hurt ourselves and no body else when we are in fits of anger, greed,

anxieties, ill temper, attachment ... Desires! We keep hurting

ourselves and sufferring mental agonies and turmoils, inner storms,

agitations, turbulences, fears and what not. We cry ..... We try to

run away from adverse circumstances caused exclusively due to your

mind desiring worldly pleasures and things. Running away from

adversity but again desiring favourable circumstances !! Sometimes

the desire is to " get pleasure " , sometime it is to " remove pains " .

Desire continues, subjects change!!

 

5 FELL BLINDLY INTO WELL WITH HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Desires have hidden mouth. They blind the desirer too. At the outset

they look goals, pleasant. Health, wealth, fame, affluence, power,

position, status, flashy cars, spacious home, right, virtue,

authority, respect, .... great feelings. Desires are beautiful.

Pains come into experience in abundance later.

 

BLINDLY .... You get blinded by desires. Pains get hidden.This

process of blocking your vision is in 3 stages. In the first stage,

the truth is as hidden as fire is hidden by smoke. In the second

stage, the reality is as not visible as your face in a mirror with a

layer of dust on it. In the final stage the gets as concealed as a

fetus in the womb !!!

 

FELL/WELL : " fell blindly into a well " here in this story means Jiva

going to hell . Here one life time ends. Desires, (kaam), reaction

of anger emanating out of unfullfilled desires ( krodha) and greed

arising out of fulfilled desires ( lobha) are three gates of hell .

( Refer BG 16:21) . Hence " well " referred here can only be " hell " .

 

Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is

reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell,

 

6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME.

 

He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " -

habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes

back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be

substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of

past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of

destiny.

 

HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING

HIMSELF OFTEN,

 

Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He

still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but

decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove,

to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something,

to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to

get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more

worldly pleasures. But all worldly .

 

He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of

efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the

desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a

decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not

haunt him badly.

 

7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING

 

But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too.

Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in

conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start

coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys

labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been

described as

 

" AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES "

 

8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got

exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is

back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and

same hell again ! Because desires continue.

 

Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of

pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And

continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the

attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the

connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect

because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal

body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only

do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at

the first time !!

 

Any views Shashikalaji ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna.

 

VYAS N B

-----------------------------

Dear Mike,

 

It is an extra-ordinary story of a spiritual seeker and his

observation on himself transparently. I felt as if it is told of me

and my own foolishness! Thanks for sharing it. This is my

interpretation of the story.

 

Story: FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST

 

… is the confused jungle of thoughts in one's perception.

 

Story: MAN WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED

 

… is the ego (or individual) lost in it.

 

Story: FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

… is the infitude of variance in the perceived world perpetually

throwing mutually conflicitng fears and desires on the individual.

 

Story: STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF

 

… means afterall the individual himself is harming himself thanks to

his ignorance.

 

 

Story: CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN

MOUTH

 

… means the lamenting fool drowns oneself beneath the ignorance of

depression in the name of sadhana shutting down one's sensory

operatus fearful of its transparency on one's reality.

 

Story: GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST

 

… the fool entered into silence with no appreciation cannot

withstand its oblivious nature and runs back into the same life full

of chaotic thoughts and actions.

 

Story: AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING AND

LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

… the story of repeated convolutions of delusions, illusions and

halluscinations with the worldly interaction continues till one's

tendencies (Vasana in Sanskrit) continue to haunt oneself.

 

Story: HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS

OF SUCH KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY

ME FOR A WHILE. HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you?

Why do you run in vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do

nothing " . " You are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " .

 

… the inner wisdom keeps its check on one's misconduct in one's

spiritual progress and acts as a catalyst to force one into self-

examination to root-cause one's problem rather than scrutinizing the

environment … realizes that the environment was never the enemy, but

oneself hiding from oneself perpetually … the individual comfounded

not understanding (not withstanding) what is going on wonders, " Who

am I? Am I not my enemy in the first place? Why am I running

frantically? Even if I run for ever, can I escape from myself?

Because of my association with my image, I am corrupt … is it not

time to drop this image? "

 

Story: THUS , SAYING , HE WEPT .

 

… But … how to drop that image – that is where, Mike, I am stuck

personally!

 

THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN THAT HUGE

FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT FOREST IS

THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

… definitely … the confused thoughts and actions still swarm me …

thanks to the image I am unable to let go … that is where, Mike, I

am stuck personally … I suppose the image will drop out one day …

when, I realize that I do not need to hide in the well … when I

realize the wandering itself is WONDERFUL in itself … when I realize

that there need not be push of desire to get out of a well and there

need not be any pull of fear drowning me into its oblivion … when I

realize that the very fear and desire are rooted in the very image I

am holding on to … when I realize that I don't need to frantically

recycle myself between oblivious wandering in the world and drowning

in the well … probably by continuous self-scrutiny in spite of such

frantic wandering around and drwoning within!!

 

Thanks for the WONDERFUL fact to teach me with its WONDERFUL

transparency.

 

THANK YOU. It is really WONDERFUL to receive the knowledge which

alone can eliminate the oblivious darkness haunting me within.

 

THANK YOU.

 

Deep Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Falling prey to " Maya " is the most astonishing wonderment in my view.

 

Some supplementary thoughts to the story explained by Tamma

Bhaiyya :

 

In the forest of worldly life our mind gets confused Jee ! and

there is a fear arising naturally in us because basically we are

permanent/ complete/never changing/ blissful - avinaashi/sahaj

sukhraasi Jee !!! But the world that this mind is attached to is -

temporary /

incomplete/deficient/ever changing/ ever sorrowful !!

 

Because of " svabhaav " (habits/individual attraction to the nature)

and past deeds/karma (association with strangers i.e the world) - we

desire worldly things and pleasure Jee !

 

Our desires are many, but as such only one Jee! ... Whatever we

think through mind .. Must happen Jee! The desires come in the form

of " my likings " ( Raag) and " my dislikings " (Dvesha). However, the

bitter truth is that simply by desiring we cannot get " worldly

pleasures " Jee, we can only get Daddy ! But that Daddy is

beyond " mind " Jee. Worldly pleasures are " natural " to mind, because

mind belongs to the world Jee, so does intellect and ego Jee( notion

of me/mine).

This mind (which I had said before is better if thrown in the

dustbin) seeks world and worldly pleasures only Jee.

 

This mind cheats us Jee in this regard. We like absolute fools

believe that " desiring " is necessary for getting worldly things. We

forget under the illusion caused by me/mine notion ( MAYA) that

while we don't desire sickness or death or adversity, still we get

it Jee. Even highly educated people, possessing a thousand hands and

eyes, say - " You must desire. The world will come to a grinding

hault if you stop desiring Jee. They think that if you don't have

desires, you are dead " Jee!

 

What a belief, Jee !! How wonderful, Jee!! How surprising !! As if

they desired to take birth, to grow, to fall sick, to deteriorate,

to die and as if they really selected their parents, children,

spouses, relatives, circumstances, situations, incidences, states,

happennings, colour, caste, creed, country, time, age !!! WHAT A

MAYA ! WHAT AN ILLUSION !!

 

That the most astonishing wonderment in human life, Jee! Maya !

Ignorance!! Stupidity !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having

complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not

been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers

immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps

cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and

permanent pain.

 

Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment

of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is

cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not

bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind ,

brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is

no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we

get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000

dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire

has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had

receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow

till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind,

and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !!

 

Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more

desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as

well as in sorrow,mind cheats us.

 

But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment

being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our

fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They

continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They

are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every

wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God !

 

When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly

suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by

telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the

time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that

happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is

responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr

Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was

bad " ) !

 

But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No !

They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my

vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me .....

mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ......

Non sense !!

 

What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear

Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ?

Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from "

sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) ,

part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave

and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !!

 

This is Maya , Jee !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

There is nothing greater than Paramatma. Whatever great thing you

have received, Paramatma is greater than even that. If you get

anything greater than Paramatma (surprisingly), then please,

immediately share will all of us, so that we also come to know. But

as such there is not such a thing, or else it would have not escaped

Swamiji's sight. Thank you !

 

Sarvottam

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

SIMPLE PROCESS OF AWAKENING OF CONSCIENCE

 

The world has got a peculiarity. It always cheats, it always commits

treachery. In fact the world does not cheat , rather cheating occurs

in the world. Reason is that we get attracted towards the world to

get pleasures. But in the end- as a law- every pleasure essentially

gets converted into pain- By sheer nature of the pleasure. Whatever

rises, sets. If a certain pleasure has come to you, it has come to

you only to go! At the end of its tenure, the pleasure ends. Hence

when you get pain, sorrow, unhappiness, when you feel helplessness ,

THEN AN ADVICE , A REMINDER " comes into your INTELLECT " -

that " Nothing is mine in the world "

 

This reminder, this thought, this feeling, this experience AWAKENS

YOUR VIVEKA provided you know how to make use of that reminder!!

 

If even after getting pain, sorrow, helplessness- you still desire

to become happy- your conscience will not fully awaken. Because the

very cause of pain is " desire for happiness " . If you attempt to

remove " dukha " (sorrow) by getting " pleasures " - you are

unconsciously increasing, multiplying dukha only. Because the cause

of sorrow is desire for happiness and nothing else.

 

Therefore- WE MUST- when we receive pain/sorrow- relinquish the

desire for happiness ! On the other hand we must strive to find out

the reasons for pain/sorrow.

 

Says Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, categorically_

 

WHEN YOU RELINQUISH THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS AND WHEN YOU SEARCH THE

REASONS FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS YOUR VIVEKA (CONSCIENCE) AWAKENS !

 

Satsanga then greatly helps you. As Mike Keenor said-

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

As Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj said-

 

BINU SATSANGA VIVEKA NA HOI ( You don't acquire power of

discrimination without Satsanga)

 

To be continued- Conscience and Paramatma Realisation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Sadhaks ! When I asked this question I never thought that

deliberations will elevate to such heights. Indeed, as stated by

Sadhika Prepetina this group has a divinity of its own. What

surprises me is that in the same posting Brother Mike talks about

of importance of Satsanga, quotes BG 16:24 and in the same posting

Vyasji also talks about Satsanga being instrumental in awakening of

conscience. How common the truth becomes when it is a real truth !!

Unbelievable ! Jee Jee Shashikalaji " s Bhajan indeed reflects the

crux of what is conscience. Her example of a thief brings out a

common sentiment across all the human beings and precisely explains

what is " conscience " ! Pratapji has given absolutely dot on time

the dictionary meaning. On top of it, extracts from messages of

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What more can be more divine than

that !! Nothing pleased me more when Vyasji quickly reciprocated to

request of Prepetina to conclude fully my questions.

 

May this Forum live for ever.

 

Bandook Singh

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is that Viveka or discrimination is different and is

used in a much wider sense. My understanding is that " Vivek " is a

spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

If you prefer only one daily gita talk message from us, please

inform us. Thank you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Re: Conscience , It's Role, It's Awakening as per Gita

 

I have a question. What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

------------------------------

ALSO COMBINING THE FOLLOWING DISCUSSION THREAD - Intellect - Its

Role? Where It Resides? Connection with Vivek (Discrimination)?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION

 

Jay Shri Krishna

I have one question. In Gita (7 - 4,5) God has described his 2 kinds

of nature: " Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and ego-

these constitute My nature divided into eight parts. This is indeed

My lower (apara/insentient) nature; but different from it, O mighty-

armed is My higher (para/sentient)nature- the life-element (Jiva),

by which this universe is sustained. "

 

Except these 10 elements (including God) nothing is left out. So

where does viveka (conscience) come in picture?

Thanks, Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS - JAN 12, 2009

1. Is vivek another element before realization?

2. After realization doesn't vivek exist?

3. How does vivek turn into realization? (DETAILS BELOW)

Thanks, Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I AM NO BODY. I DO NOTHING "

 

EGO ! In fact this world is basically sustained by the Jeeva through

EGO !! Ego consists of " me or mine " and " likings and dislikings " (

Raag and Dvesha). With reference to your true nature this EGO in

fact is imaginary or fictitious. Because you are basically, Chetan (

sentient), Amal ( Faultless) , Sahaj Sukhraasi ( Naturally and

effortlessly blissful) , Ishwar ansha ( Part of God and God only-

not at all a part of Nature made of 8 elements referred in BG

7:4/5) , Avinaashi ( Imperishable). When ME and MINE are applied by

Jeeva towards Jagat ( World) , then ME starts appearing to you as

BODY, and mine starts appearing to you as world, worldly people and

things, mind, intellect etc. Simultaneously emerges in you likings

and dislikings and with that DESIRES. That is the end of you- the

pure you and beginning of Jeeva,, beginning of DUKHALAYAM and

beginning of endless calamities. Another name of worldly attachment

is Calamities !!

 

Sanatan Dharma addresses basically this EGO. Gita throughout

requires you to become EGOLESS. A Karma Yogi PURIFIES his ego by not

considering world to be me or mine and by applying whatever he has

got from the world- body, mind, intellect, worldly possessions,

powers, authority, wealth, virtue etc all - everything back to the

service of world, while himself remaining aloof, nishkaam,

expectationless from the results of service. A Jnana Yogi ELIMINATES

the very ego. He simply does not consider anything worldly to ME or

Mine. A Bhakti Yogi CHANGES his ego. He replaces ME part of Ego as

PART OF GOD ( I am of God) , and Mine part of Ego again to be God (

Mere to Girdhar Gopal). Result: Doosaro Na Koi ( Nothing else is

mine).

 

All three Yogis ( there are only three) DO NOT consider " ME " to be

BODY. You are not BODY. Hence Jeeva here replies to Mr Conscience I

AM NO BODY. I am imaginary. I am fictitious. I am no body. I am not

body. " I " does not exist. There is no " I " ! Jeeva !! What is

Jeeva except EGO- likings and dislikings, desires because Me is body

and Mine is world ? What is Jeeva except sense of " I " ? If ego is

eliminated/corrected/changed from worldly to divine- there is no

Jeeva ! Either SELF remains behind or GOD remains. World goes !! In

fact the world never existed except in the mind of JEEVA ! The world

does not exist! VASUDEVA only exists !! Vasudevah Sarvam !!

 

What do you do ? Nothing in fact. Things are happening of their own.

You are just

connecting/disconnecting/associating/disassociating/accepting/rejecti

ng !! You are doing nothing ! Jeeva does nothing. Says Gita

categorically- AHANKAAR VIMUDHATMA KARTAHAMITI MANYATE – Foolish

Jeeva, under influence/ ignorance/darkness of Ego ASSUMES/ ACCEPTS

that " I AM DOER " !! In fact I DO NOTHING !! Mark here the words "

VIMUDHATMA " – under ignorance/disillusioned ! In Upanishads , Ego is

stated to be residing in " IGNORANCE ZONE " ( Agyaanmaya Kosha) !!

Therefore here Jeeva says to Mr Conscience that I DO NOTHING !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

In this great story, so beautifully being explained by Vyasji and

Jee Jee Shashikalaji, for benefit of all sadhaks , based on the

eternal teachings of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj _

 

all three questions asked are fundamental questions.

 

1. WHAT IS THIS ?- is a question pertaning to the world (Jagat) !

 

2 WHO ARE YOU?- is a question pertaning to Self (Jeeva) !

 

3 WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN ? - is a question leading you to Paramatma

(Jagdish) ! It helps in firming up your objective , your goal !!

 

These questions require " discrimination " (Viveka) to answer. In

Animal form of life such questions are not possible to be raised. In

demi-gods , they are unnecessary. But in human life they are vital.

 

Answers to these questions definitely lead you to Liberation.

 

Narain Narain

Rajendra J Bohra

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Sadhak Varunji has asked a real genuine question and in my view THE

BEST QUESTION so far in last 6 months on Holy Gita.

 

He can be replied in many ways. Swamiji equated VIVEKA with God and

categorically stated that VIVEKA gets converted into God

Realisation. Since God is one of 1o elements, Viveka gets covered

there. Conscience is voice of God!

 

I also feel that elements like Equanimity, discrimination ( Viveka),

nishkaam bhav- they are functions too! What is wrong in clubbing

them and seeing them as functions of " stablised intellect " referred

in BG 2 ! Intellect once it " stablises " becomes changeless !

 

Thirdly, the pure soul ( self) has powers to

associate/disassociate/accept/reject/connect/disconnect. Pure soul

has only that power and nothing else- Swamiji categorically stated

that. Now granted that- the power of discrimination(viveka)

automatically becomes power of Self as discrimination is essential

to determine whether to accept or reject etc. Self is part of 10 !

 

Sadhak Varunji should come back if he is not convinced. He must !

Please go deep in this. It is a real genuine query. I will also come

back if I find from Swamiji's discourses/books more on this.

 

Thanks Varunji.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Thus asked : He said I am no body. I do nothing

 

Now you think, you realise. Am I body? I am certainly not the body.

Who feels " bondage " ? Certainly the body is not feeling bondage. Who

will go to heaven or hell ? Certainly the body will not go ! I am

not the name by which I am called. What was I before the name was

given to me ? I am not rich. There are people before whom I feel

poor. I am not poor. ' There are people before whom I feel rich. I

am just, watching, I am just feeling pleasure/pains, I am just

agreeing, I am just witnessing..... but that is not " doing " . However

deep you may think, -the fact will remain that you are " no " " body " .

You are not " body " .

 

You are not " doing " anything. You are simply accepting; or

rejecting or associating/disassociating with an action done / to be

done by the body or with an activity happening in the

world. " Accepting " is not " doing'I (e.g. you accepted some body to

be your father .... What did you " do " ? What was the action at

your end ?).

 

I AM NO BODY: Ego has no base to survive. It never had any basis.

Because You the pure you, got associated with it/supported, it was

surviving. ! Ego controls intellect. Intellect controls mind. Mind

controls sense organs.; Sense organs control physical body .......

all of them are part of world, arise out of world, remain always

in the world and disintegrate in the end in the world only ! What

you carry with you in the next birth is " your " svabhav, association,

attitude towards the world. " Me " & " mine " are fictitious, imaginary

& unreal.

 

I DO NOTHING: Breaths are coming & going. Blood is circulating in

the body. Body is functioning. Food is digesting. Diseases are

coming & going. Eyes are fluttering. Thoughts are coming & ,going.

Body is changing. World is changing. Circumstances, situations,

incidences are happening. Everything is changing. Everything is

moving. Nothing is static.. Even a dead body or a stone changes..

Activity is constantly, unceasingly, happening in the body .... in

the world: Cold & warm seasons are coming & going. Sun rises, sun

sets. Thoughts are coming and going in the mind. What efforts you do

to fall asleep? What am I doing ? What am I doing to cause hunger &

thirst, to take birth, to grow, to deteriorate, to fall sick .. and

to die ? Body is working & changing.. If 'I am working & changing,

then who is observing, who is witnessing the changes ? How can

the " Scene " & the " Seer " be the same?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Sir Vyasji, I remember reading the same in Swamiji's books that

vivek turns into tattvagyaan (realization of truth). I have 3

questions on this statement - 1. Is vivek another element before

realization? 2. After realization doesn't vivek exist? 3. How does

vivek turn into realization?

 

That element is said to be insentient (jad) which doesn't know

itself as well as others. And sentient (chetan) is referred to as

that conscious element which knows itself as well as others. So as

per this principle the first eight elements can be ruled out. Now

that leaves us with the God and its fragment Self (jeeva). Vivek has

to be surrounding these 2 elements. It cannot be a separate entity

because if it becomes then equanimity, sentiment of devotion (bhakti-

baav) etc. will also be different elements which don't seem to be

possible.

 

Also vivek has to be immortal because one who knows the distinction

between mortal and immortal has to be immortal. Jeeva being fragment

of God is Sat-Chit-Anand (Immortal-Consciousness-Bliss). So like

immortality, is this second attribute of consciousness also somewhat

related to vivek?

 

Thanks,

Varun Paprunia

==============================================================

COMBINING DISCUSSION THREAD - Intellect - Its Role? Where It

Resides? Connection with Vivek (Discrimination)?

----------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I believe the extract below from this post, could do with a good

airing. I realise that the simple model of the human body falls

very short of the higher reality, this is something that the

individual can discover for him/herself, by various spiritual

practices. (Woe betide those that play around outside the spirit, in

such things).

 

I have disciplined myself , (sometimes I have fallen outside the

guidelines, for that I apologize to moderator ). But at

the same time regarding, how many thousands readers of these two

sites? The ones who have fallen between the cracks, they are my

beloved fellow imperfect. Maybe the extract below can shine a light

on their confusion.

 

'...The heart area extends ten fingers below the throat and ten

fingers above the navel. In this heart area, the intellect resides

and its place of operating is the brain....'

 

I apologize for my verbosity .

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hare Krishna

 

I would like to paste some text from SSS related to intellect and

realization

 

" Gyaan hone par tattva mein kuch farak nahi padta. Farak us buddhi

mein padhta hain, jisme agyan hai. "

" After realization there is no change in tattva (truth-element).

Change occurs in that intellect which has ignorance in it. " (Page

775, column 2 - para3, line 1-2)

 

Now the question is that what change can occur in that intellect.

Answer is on same page

 

" Sharir-Sansar to upar se waise hi dikhte hain, par unme astitva-

buddhi mit jaati hai.. "

" Body-world seems to be the same from above, but 'It has an

independent existence'- this ignorance from intellect is wiped out. "

(same page, column 1)

 

SSS = Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu

 

Thank you,

Varun Paprunia

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

Mr.Mike is correct about intellect residing. This is very clearly

explained and shown with proof by one saint called Veera Bramam

lived in Andra Pradesh, India. The sant has given details of how it

functions by Chakras in human body. The Sant took to Jeeva Samadhi

in 18th century I presume. His Samadhi is in Caddapah, Andra Pradesh

even to day, like that of Saint Gnaneswar.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

The heart is physically present in the body. Intellect may be

present in the

brain but real vivek or discrimination can be developed only through

spiritual

practices like sadhana, satsang, sewa and meditation.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

-----------------------------

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

There are long explanations In short human being have the mind

having mind intellect which creates thoughts in the mind and then it

goes for its action. There is a conscience means atman which finally

decides what to do ?

 

This is the process of our handling our life. When our coNsciousness

reaches the final stage it comes nearer to God. Then there are

chances for liberation ( a long process )

 

Thanks

 

Truly yours

 

S S Bhatt

-------------------------------

 

Very interesting.

 

Thank you.

 

Warm regards

Captain S.M.Divekar

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Firstly I extend a greatful Thanks to you to include me in your team.

With Respect and Devine love

Shiv Shankar

-----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I fully agree with Sadhak Pratapji Bhatt. His description of

Conscience is very timely. When the " reflected " intelligences ( in

the words of Swamiji- Viveka- as quoted by Brother Mike Keenor under

another Q) which are only Pure Consciousness , are intent on or on

the point of willing or ideation, then , they attain to the state of

individual souls or individualised consciousness- JUST AS WATER

ASSUMES THE STATE OF WAVES !

 

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that there are two ways to

awaken your conscience. Sorrow and Satsanga ! Here in this story the

man is tormented by affliction and sorrow. Serious sadhaks hence

forth should meticulously read each and word of this story. Read

between the lines too! Read rather " feel " ! Put your self

into " equanimous " zone and then read. We are reaching climax. We are

only a couple of steps away from benediction!

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " WHAT IS THIS? WHO ARE YOU? WHY DO YOU RUN IN

VAIN ?

 

And that voice asks you questions ! What is this? Are you supposed

to be in this shape? What have you achieved so far? Only that which

must leave you !! To achieve what must leave you- is no achievement

in reality. A human keeps wasting time and effort in achieving

temporary, perishables and momentaries.... What else? What else we

can achieve by using temporary tools like mind, body, intellect ?

WHO ARE YOU ? Are you what you are reflecting /believing/assuming

yourself to be? Are you the name by which you are called? Are you

the the ego or mind or intellect or the body? If yes, then how you

are witnessing changes in ego, mind, intellect, body ? Can " seer " be

the " seen " ? WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN? How much compromises, sins you

have made to fulfill your desires? Have your desires been fulfilled?

Do you now find yourself into that state where nothing remains to be

done or got or known by you?

 

These are the " discriminatory " questions. Real questions. These are

asked by conscience to Jeeva. What is Jeeva? Ego ! " Jeeva " resides

in " ego " - in " causal body " - in " ignorance zone " !

 

Hence the question - WHO ARE YOU ? - is replied in this great story

by EGO !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I've read Ji Ji Shashikalaji's article deeply also I recall her

dialog between Jiva and Maya, and also appreciate Michael Hagen's

gut feeling concept, I would like to go a little deeper.

I think I told this story before, in the current light I think I

would like to look at it again and add an addendum.

A true story I read when I was a young man:

A reporter for a newspaper, used to work himself very hard, living on

coffee and junk etc., but he had the habit of dropping out for a

complete break for a few weeks. This time he rented a cell(room) in a

monastery of a silent order. He took to meditation/contemplation,

tuning into the ethos of the place. He took to sitting in the back of

the chapel to listen to the monks as they chanted their devotions.

He would then leave prior to the end of the service.

One morning he remained alone after the monks had left and was drawn

before the alter, whereby he collapsed in grief pain horror spiritual

agony self loathing remorse outreaching and so on. And found he was

not alone, a very old monk had returned, comforted him, assured him

this was not unknown to him. Of course this journalist was never the

same again. I never thought it would happen to me!

The heart can release suddenly, as it were, like an explosion of

love, overpowering, one changes there and then.

I think I will leave it there for now.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Conscience when it awakens asks questions. It straight away attacks

the very roots of your existence! " Me and Mine " - Ego !

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " me " . WHO ARE YOU?

Body or soul? Temporary or permanent? Perishable or imperishable?

Sentient or inert? Seer or the seen? Kshetra or Kshetragya? Mortal

or immortal? Ever sorrowful or ever blissful?

 

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " mine " ! What is yours?

The world and the worldly people or Paramatma? Or worldly things or

body? Who is yours? To whom do you belong?

 

SATSANGA- association with virtuous people, Saints and Sages ( like

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) , association with Truth, reading of

Holy Scriptures ( Like Gita, Ramayana, Bible etc) , membership of

selfless forums like this Gita Talk Group etc- provides you the

answers to these questions.

SORROW propels/ raises such questions. SATSANGA answers such

questions.How easy! Hence Swamiji sings glories of adverse

circumstances in human life. Therefore it is sorrow and satsanga-

that help you in getting liberated. It is our foolishness that we

run away from sorrows!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Thanks GT Moderators !

 

VIVEKA - THE POWER OF DISCRIMINATION

 

When Mr Viveka takes over the hold of you, there are lots of

questions. There is a lot soul searching. Your peace gets snatched.

Conscience forces you to listen to him.You have choice still of

disregarding him, but only after hearing him !!

 

Viveka (Conscience) takes you beyond desires/mind ! It

discriminates. Viveka only and not mind that suggest to you

that " desires are insatiable " . Gita also suggests that only. Can

fire extinguish if you keep adding fuel into it?

 

You want to have good spouse, children, parents, lot of money,

robust health, fame - so that you may become happy. This is

suggestion of mind.

 

Viveka confronts you with a counter question. Whether those who have

better spouses, children, more money than you, etc - Are they

happy ?? Happiness is not in presence of worldly things, it resides

in absence of desires for worldly things.

Your mind wants to change the circumstances, situations to suit it,

to suit the desres/goals ! It never takes easy/simple ways. Your

conscience tells You that one can never change the circumstances, a

simple way is to " change yourself " . Pain lies in feeling of

deficiency within. That deficiency gets created when you desire!!

You consider your self to be big, if you have lot of money! Now who

is bigger? You or money ? We make a mockery of ourselves by

desiring. What we have to get, we shall get, irrespective of our

desiring for the same!! Worldly things will not stop coming to you

if you stop desiring- only pains will cease!! How easy ! How simple!!

 

YOUR MIND CHEATS YOU JEE WHEN IT SUGGESTS THAT " To renounce desires

is very difficult " . Ask your mind - " WHY DONT YOU SUGGEST THAT TO

FULFILL DESIRES IS IMPOSSIBLE? " That mind will never suggest to

you ! That only Mr Conscience can tell you.

 

Wake up .... Jee ... O Dear Child of God ... Wake up !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

Dear Aspirants of Peace !

 

Thank you very much for recalling my question. It was so near the

conclusion , yet it became so far. Frankly, I thought that steam has

run out of this group when real concluding time came. I even

considered unsubscribing but something in me stopped (

conscience?) ! Looking forward to the deliberations.

 

Conscience according to me is " gut feeling " , a sixth sense,

something which is present in a human being definitely. Something

which is capable of tormenting a sinner. Something related with

inner peace of a human. I agree with Sadhaks that it should be

respected. However I am eager to know how it leads you to ultimate

truth. How to convert it into what you sadhaks call as liberation or

benediction- freedom from the sorrow for ever !

 

Thanks, once again.

 

Michael Hagen

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Thanks Shashikalaji. Certainly that story depicts the role of VIVEKA

( Conscience) in the best possible manner. That story is the story

of each one of us , having been quoted in YOGA VAASHISHTHA –

unquestionably one of the most respected and profound heritage

Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Viveka – how does it discriminate?

What does it discriminate. How it functions. What is the result of

disrespect to Conscience.? What is the result of respecting to it?

All these factors are covered in this story. I had covered this

story upto " HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE

CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH KIND, AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS

AWAKENED BY ME FOR A WHILE. "

 

A human being is seen constantly by VIVEKA. Viveka remains as a

spectator to your conduct and when you pay respect to it , it takes

over the responsibility of guide, friend and philosopher to you. If

you keep listening to the dictates of Viveka, it can lead you to

Liberation. This story is complete story in itself of a man's

journey into human life – from Bondage to Liberation. Conscience

holds you BY FORCE. It snatches away your logical mind. It snatches

away your very tranquillity, peace. Nothing torments a human more

than his conscience ! Condition is – you must not ignore it

consistently – under sway of desires.

 

Before I continue with the story let me request sadhaks , to refresh

themselves by reading the text and responses again. It was explained

that DESIRES for worldly pleasures, ( Maya) is responsible for a

man's agony and lack of peace. When a person gets utterly helpless,

caught in the web of its own mind, own desires- a voice comes- a

powerful voice from deep inside –

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain?

 

This, Dear Sadhaks , is the voice of VIVEKA asking to JEEVA !

Jeeva !! That Jeeva who now is nothing except EGO !! Jeeva forgets

who actually he is ! He considers himself to be body, to be say

Vyas N B, to be an assumed entity. Conscience tells him, explains

him what actually he is. Conscience asks questions. Conscience lets

him " discriminate " . Conscience holds him BY FORCE ! Read the

questions asked by Viveka to Jeeva ( Ego- Embodied self) ! Admire in

the meantime the depth and simplicity of the questions.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Friends

 

Thanks to Jee Jee for recalling Mike's unconcluded Q. I think it

will make us all wiser. Conscience or viveka as it is called in

native language is experienced/felt by all of us sometime or other.

I agree with Mike Keenor that it must be discovered to be

beyond " intellect " . I think conscience prevents a human being from

abstaining from evil deeds. Still if a man sins, then conscience

even punishes internally a man and distorts his psyche. Conscience

if it is hurt then never allows a person to remain at peace. Hard

core criminals perhaps disrespect the conscience and then only they

can commit evil deeds. Conscience to me is like a police man present

in you. I am happy that there is religion in the world which not

only analyses this extra terrestial faculty in a human being, and

leads what you call soul to utilise it properly and then reap

highest rewards. Wonderful ! It is astonishing to find that there

are Saints of the class of Swami Ramsukhdas who can really throw

light on such an element and can guide humanity at large on proper

utilisation of such element. I also agree to the latest post of Mr

Pratap Bhatt who so eloquently explained the element. Of course Mr

Vyas N B and all other learned sadhaks have thrown light on the

element. It is indeed great to be part of this Gita Talk forum

 

Thank You all

 

Luca B

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

I request GT Moderators to merge an earlier not fully concluded Q on

Story of mind from Yoga Vaashishtha under this question.(It was a Q

by Michael Hagen , I recall).

 

When Mr Conscience takes over the reigns ... There are plenty of

questions. Plenty of soul searching. You start " discriminating " !

You start thinking - Am I body? Who feels the " bondage " ? Certainly

the body is not feeling the bondage! Who will go to heaven or hell?

Certainly body will not go! You start thinking deeply as to who you

actually are. Why you are.

 

In that Michael Hagen question ( Story of mind- In GT group it was

listed under the Q - Biggest astonishment of the world) which due to

our going on vacations could not be concluded , the story takes you

to conscience. It is conscience who holds that man and asks - " What

is this? Who are you? Why do you run in vain? "

 

If GT Moderators can kindly merge that thread under this Question-

it will help the Sadhaks immensely- particularly because writer of

that story was Mr Conscience ! Alternately this posting may be

listed under that Q.

 

Thanks Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

PASTED PORTIONS OF MESSAGE. TO READ ENTIRE STRING PLEASE VISIT :

/message/1764

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Dear Aspirants of Peace

 

On this question , though I dont have much to state as my knowledge

of Gita is very very limited. But recently a friend gave me an

Indian Holy text in which the following short story was there. It

appeared very surprising story to me. I wonder if any one can throw

more light on it.

 

" THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN.

WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED , THAT FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND

EYES, STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF,

CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN MOUTH.

THEN, GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST. THEN, AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING

AND LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH

KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY ME FOR A

WHILE.

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do nothing " . " You

are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " . THUS , SAYING ,

HE WEPT . THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN

THAT HUGE FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT

FOREST IS THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

My question to this forum is to explain the above story. Who held

whom? Who asked questions ? What is the substance ? What is the

moral?

 

Michael Hagen

----------------

In Gita Yudhistir was asked the same question and he replied that

the greatest surprise was that though everyone knows that he has to

die someday, we all behave and go through life as if we are going to

live forever. That was the greatest of surprises in this world.

The moral of Michael Hagen's story is that we are all lost souls

going about the motions of living, without knowing what we are

doing, without knowing the purpose of our existence. We are like the

man who runs and keeps on falling in the well because we do

thoughtless things over and over again. Only a God-realised person

or through meditation can one know the real meaning of life.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

------------------

 

Hari Om

 

You have indeed presented to all of us , the true and real story of

each of us. All sadhaks should feel grateful to you. Sadhaks like

Michael and our Mike Keenor are real and respectable examples of

how a soul gallops towards the TRUTH once a desire or need has arisen

in it to find out the Divine . Soul recognises not any distinctions

of caste, creed, colour, country,. A burning desire is more than

enough to progress in spiritual uplifting.

 

This story in the first reading appears " mindless " though it is

exclusively about the " mind " - a funny story but very serious. For

serious sadhaks such stories set an order, a process of " sadhana " ….

And lead them straight to their goal- freedom from pain /sorrow …

systematically … step by step. For intelligent people such stories

are a challenge , a riddle, a reminder ! It is too brief in size but

too big in effect- like an arrow.

 

This story covers substance of . Soul ( SAT) , Conscience,. Jeeva,

Ego, Mind, Intellect, Destiny, Svabhav ( nature/habit) , Jagat (

World), Worldly Pleasures, Pain of the soul, Desires, MAYA ( Avidya,

agyaan, darkness, illusion, ignorance, stupidity, jugglery, ) ,

Knowledge ( CHIT, gyaan, light ) , Bondage, Liberation, , and

Jagdish ( God, Paramatma, ANANDA,- Divine, natural, absolute not

relative-, BLISS, PEACE ) This story is timeless. When we come

across such ocean deep stories , we cant help feeling proud of our

Religion, Saints and Sages, Heritage, and Holy Scriptures of eternal

Sanatan Dharma.

 

This " gaagar main saagar " ( Ocean in water pot) story first

thoroughly agitates and astonishes even the best of the human egos,

intellects and minds ; then gives them a powerful shock ; then

pacifies /satisfies/floors them fully. And then of course silences

them . In the end it makes YOU meet YOURSELF in SAT CHIT ANANDA

FORM.!

 

This story is the state of JIVA in his present form and is applicable

to all of us. It starts with Bondage and ends with Liberation and the

JIVA claiming the SATCHITANANDA FORM of Paramatma. Nothing explains

more eloquently the role of MAYA than this powerful short story. Who

else can be the writer of this story than CONSCIENCE which is direct

agent of Paramatma living in the human body along with JIVA ? Like

two birds on a tree – referred once by Mike Keenor in one of his

messages !! Who else can hold the soul so powerfully and ask such

direct questions than CONSCIENCE ?

 

It is from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma –

called YOGA VAASHISHTHA - where Sage Vaashishtha teaches Lord

Rama .

 

Balance in next message. In the meantime serious sadhaks should re

read this story – seriously & peacefully, in order to gain out of it.

The best way to read it is to " feel " it so that your mind becomes a

scene and you become the seer and your conscience starts

responding. " To feel " – put yourself into equanimous zone in which

zone your conscience always resides – be like a court judge- no

personal likings / dislikings. Read it as a challenge to your mental

equipment. Believe for once in what ever clues I have given here in

above.

 

1. THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN

 

This world is the forest in which we all, with minds, wander about.

It is a forest because with the cool air and beauty of nature ,

there are thorns also. There are wild animals also and chances of

our getting lost too. Being forest there are no ways visible. We

have to make our own ways. All the beauty and dangers of forest are

present in human life. - of every body- no exceptions.

 

2 WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED, THAT FEARFUL ONE

 

We are not peaceful. We are confused - constantly seeking pleasure

and happiness. We are fearful. We don't know what the next moment

might have in store for us. We may die anytime, anywhere. We are

confused as well as fearful because we are basically split at the

sub conscience level. While body, mind, ego etc " natuarally " remain

estalished in prakrithi (world/nature) only being part of them, but

we don't belong to nature. It is law that fear develops when one

enters the arena to which he doesnot belong or ONLY when when is in

company of " others " .. When we get attracted/connected

with " stranger/other " world, fear and confusion stick with us

permanently, (which fear goes ONLY when we disconnect from world).

Constant changes and uncertainties of the world also make us

confused and fearful.

 

3 WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

We are equipped in this forest with sharp intellect and vision,

imagination of mind. With capacity to work hard, and control other

species, animals, and fellow men ( a thousand hands) and an

exceptional vision ( a thousand eyes) we set about in this world to

seek pleasure and peace. We seek help of mind. We make efforts to

fulfill our desires.We want to be the best, the wealthiest, the most

intelligent, the most knowledgeable, the healthiest, the greatest.

We want to have every worldly comfort which our Dear and our own

mind can conceive! We don't want to lose. We always want to win. We

are proud of our mind and our intellect (vision). Mind gives a

solution to our eternal desire of being peaceful and happy. DESIRE

FOR WORLDLY THINGS. Since we like mind, we have connected with mind,

WE ACCEPT the suggestions of mind. We start seeking worldly

pleasures.

 

4 STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF, CRYING

AND RUNNING ...

 

Once mind desires, the sorrow and pain is a must in all

circumstances. What else we can do in the beginning, middle or end

of worldly desires except beating ourselves, brooding, fretting? The

beatings referred in the story are the blows of fancies,

imaginations and whims. They are indeed caused by one self . We only

hurt ourselves and no body else when we are in fits of anger, greed,

anxieties, ill temper, attachment ... Desires! We keep hurting

ourselves and sufferring mental agonies and turmoils, inner storms,

agitations, turbulences, fears and what not. We cry ..... We try to

run away from adverse circumstances caused exclusively due to your

mind desiring worldly pleasures and things. Running away from

adversity but again desiring favourable circumstances !! Sometimes

the desire is to " get pleasure " , sometime it is to " remove pains " .

Desire continues, subjects change!!

 

5 FELL BLINDLY INTO WELL WITH HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Desires have hidden mouth. They blind the desirer too. At the outset

they look goals, pleasant. Health, wealth, fame, affluence, power,

position, status, flashy cars, spacious home, right, virtue,

authority, respect, .... great feelings. Desires are beautiful.

Pains come into experience in abundance later.

 

BLINDLY .... You get blinded by desires. Pains get hidden.This

process of blocking your vision is in 3 stages. In the first stage,

the truth is as hidden as fire is hidden by smoke. In the second

stage, the reality is as not visible as your face in a mirror with a

layer of dust on it. In the final stage the gets as concealed as a

fetus in the womb !!!

 

FELL/WELL : " fell blindly into a well " here in this story means Jiva

going to hell . Here one life time ends. Desires, (kaam), reaction

of anger emanating out of unfullfilled desires ( krodha) and greed

arising out of fulfilled desires ( lobha) are three gates of hell .

( Refer BG 16:21) . Hence " well " referred here can only be " hell " .

 

Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is

reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell,

 

6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME.

 

He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " -

habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes

back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be

substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of

past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of

destiny.

 

HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING

HIMSELF OFTEN,

 

Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He

still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but

decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove,

to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something,

to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to

get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more

worldly pleasures. But all worldly .

 

He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of

efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the

desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a

decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not

haunt him badly.

 

7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING

 

But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too.

Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in

conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start

coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys

labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been

described as

 

" AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES "

 

8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got

exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is

back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and

same hell again ! Because desires continue.

 

Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of

pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And

continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the

attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the

connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect

because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal

body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only

do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at

the first time !!

 

Any views Shashikalaji ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna.

 

VYAS N B

-----------------------------

Dear Mike,

 

It is an extra-ordinary story of a spiritual seeker and his

observation on himself transparently. I felt as if it is told of me

and my own foolishness! Thanks for sharing it. This is my

interpretation of the story.

 

Story: FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST

 

… is the confused jungle of thoughts in one's perception.

 

Story: MAN WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED

 

… is the ego (or individual) lost in it.

 

Story: FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

… is the infitude of variance in the perceived world perpetually

throwing mutually conflicitng fears and desires on the individual.

 

Story: STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF

 

… means afterall the individual himself is harming himself thanks to

his ignorance.

 

 

Story: CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN

MOUTH

 

… means the lamenting fool drowns oneself beneath the ignorance of

depression in the name of sadhana shutting down one's sensory

operatus fearful of its transparency on one's reality.

 

Story: GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST

 

… the fool entered into silence with no appreciation cannot

withstand its oblivious nature and runs back into the same life full

of chaotic thoughts and actions.

 

Story: AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING AND

LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

… the story of repeated convolutions of delusions, illusions and

halluscinations with the worldly interaction continues till one's

tendencies (Vasana in Sanskrit) continue to haunt oneself.

 

Story: HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS

OF SUCH KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY

ME FOR A WHILE. HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you?

Why do you run in vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do

nothing " . " You are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " .

 

… the inner wisdom keeps its check on one's misconduct in one's

spiritual progress and acts as a catalyst to force one into self-

examination to root-cause one's problem rather than scrutinizing the

environment … realizes that the environment was never the enemy, but

oneself hiding from oneself perpetually … the individual comfounded

not understanding (not withstanding) what is going on wonders, " Who

am I? Am I not my enemy in the first place? Why am I running

frantically? Even if I run for ever, can I escape from myself?

Because of my association with my image, I am corrupt … is it not

time to drop this image? "

 

Story: THUS , SAYING , HE WEPT .

 

… But … how to drop that image – that is where, Mike, I am stuck

personally!

 

THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN THAT HUGE

FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT FOREST IS

THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

… definitely … the confused thoughts and actions still swarm me …

thanks to the image I am unable to let go … that is where, Mike, I

am stuck personally … I suppose the image will drop out one day …

when, I realize that I do not need to hide in the well … when I

realize the wandering itself is WONDERFUL in itself … when I realize

that there need not be push of desire to get out of a well and there

need not be any pull of fear drowning me into its oblivion … when I

realize that the very fear and desire are rooted in the very image I

am holding on to … when I realize that I don't need to frantically

recycle myself between oblivious wandering in the world and drowning

in the well … probably by continuous self-scrutiny in spite of such

frantic wandering around and drwoning within!!

 

Thanks for the WONDERFUL fact to teach me with its WONDERFUL

transparency.

 

THANK YOU. It is really WONDERFUL to receive the knowledge which

alone can eliminate the oblivious darkness haunting me within.

 

THANK YOU.

 

Deep Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Falling prey to " Maya " is the most astonishing wonderment in my view.

 

Some supplementary thoughts to the story explained by Tamma

Bhaiyya :

 

In the forest of worldly life our mind gets confused Jee ! and

there is a fear arising naturally in us because basically we are

permanent/ complete/never changing/ blissful - avinaashi/sahaj

sukhraasi Jee !!! But the world that this mind is attached to is -

temporary /

incomplete/deficient/ever changing/ ever sorrowful !!

 

Because of " svabhaav " (habits/individual attraction to the nature)

and past deeds/karma (association with strangers i.e the world) - we

desire worldly things and pleasure Jee !

 

Our desires are many, but as such only one Jee! ... Whatever we

think through mind .. Must happen Jee! The desires come in the form

of " my likings " ( Raag) and " my dislikings " (Dvesha). However, the

bitter truth is that simply by desiring we cannot get " worldly

pleasures " Jee, we can only get Daddy ! But that Daddy is

beyond " mind " Jee. Worldly pleasures are " natural " to mind, because

mind belongs to the world Jee, so does intellect and ego Jee( notion

of me/mine).

This mind (which I had said before is better if thrown in the

dustbin) seeks world and worldly pleasures only Jee.

 

This mind cheats us Jee in this regard. We like absolute fools

believe that " desiring " is necessary for getting worldly things. We

forget under the illusion caused by me/mine notion ( MAYA) that

while we don't desire sickness or death or adversity, still we get

it Jee. Even highly educated people, possessing a thousand hands and

eyes, say - " You must desire. The world will come to a grinding

hault if you stop desiring Jee. They think that if you don't have

desires, you are dead " Jee!

 

What a belief, Jee !! How wonderful, Jee!! How surprising !! As if

they desired to take birth, to grow, to fall sick, to deteriorate,

to die and as if they really selected their parents, children,

spouses, relatives, circumstances, situations, incidences, states,

happennings, colour, caste, creed, country, time, age !!! WHAT A

MAYA ! WHAT AN ILLUSION !!

 

That the most astonishing wonderment in human life, Jee! Maya !

Ignorance!! Stupidity !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having

complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not

been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers

immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps

cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and

permanent pain.

 

Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment

of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is

cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not

bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind ,

brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is

no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we

get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000

dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire

has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had

receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow

till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind,

and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !!

 

Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more

desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as

well as in sorrow,mind cheats us.

 

But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment

being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our

fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They

continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They

are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every

wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God !

 

When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly

suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by

telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the

time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that

happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is

responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr

Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was

bad " ) !

 

But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No !

They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my

vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me .....

mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ......

Non sense !!

 

What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear

Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ?

Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from "

sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) ,

part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave

and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !!

 

This is Maya , Jee !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

There is nothing greater than Paramatma. Whatever great thing you

have received, Paramatma is greater than even that. If you get

anything greater than Paramatma (surprisingly), then please,

immediately share will all of us, so that we also come to know. But

as such there is not such a thing, or else it would have not escaped

Swamiji's sight. Thank you !

 

Sarvottam

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

SIMPLE PROCESS OF AWAKENING OF CONSCIENCE

 

The world has got a peculiarity. It always cheats, it always commits

treachery. In fact the world does not cheat , rather cheating occurs

in the world. Reason is that we get attracted towards the world to

get pleasures. But in the end- as a law- every pleasure essentially

gets converted into pain- By sheer nature of the pleasure. Whatever

rises, sets. If a certain pleasure has come to you, it has come to

you only to go! At the end of its tenure, the pleasure ends. Hence

when you get pain, sorrow, unhappiness, when you feel helplessness ,

THEN AN ADVICE , A REMINDER " comes into your INTELLECT " -

that " Nothing is mine in the world "

 

This reminder, this thought, this feeling, this experience AWAKENS

YOUR VIVEKA provided you know how to make use of that reminder!!

 

If even after getting pain, sorrow, helplessness- you still desire

to become happy- your conscience will not fully awaken. Because the

very cause of pain is " desire for happiness " . If you attempt to

remove " dukha " (sorrow) by getting " pleasures " - you are

unconsciously increasing, multiplying dukha only. Because the cause

of sorrow is desire for happiness and nothing else.

 

Therefore- WE MUST- when we receive pain/sorrow- relinquish the

desire for happiness ! On the other hand we must strive to find out

the reasons for pain/sorrow.

 

Says Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, categorically_

 

WHEN YOU RELINQUISH THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS AND WHEN YOU SEARCH THE

REASONS FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS YOUR VIVEKA (CONSCIENCE) AWAKENS !

 

Satsanga then greatly helps you. As Mike Keenor said-

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

As Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj said-

 

BINU SATSANGA VIVEKA NA HOI ( You don't acquire power of

discrimination without Satsanga)

 

To be continued- Conscience and Paramatma Realisation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Sadhaks ! When I asked this question I never thought that

deliberations will elevate to such heights. Indeed, as stated by

Sadhika Prepetina this group has a divinity of its own. What

surprises me is that in the same posting Brother Mike talks about

of importance of Satsanga, quotes BG 16:24 and in the same posting

Vyasji also talks about Satsanga being instrumental in awakening of

conscience. How common the truth becomes when it is a real truth !!

Unbelievable ! Jee Jee Shashikalaji " s Bhajan indeed reflects the

crux of what is conscience. Her example of a thief brings out a

common sentiment across all the human beings and precisely explains

what is " conscience " ! Pratapji has given absolutely dot on time

the dictionary meaning. On top of it, extracts from messages of

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What more can be more divine than

that !! Nothing pleased me more when Vyasji quickly reciprocated to

request of Prepetina to conclude fully my questions.

 

May this Forum live for ever.

 

Bandook Singh

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is that Viveka or discrimination is different and is

used in a much wider sense. My understanding is that " Vivek " is a

spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

ORIGINAL POSTING

: Shree Hari :

Ram Ram

 

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

The glory of the human body has been sung to a great extent in the

scriptures. That glory is not of the body with flesh-bones, but of

the discriminative faculty (vivek). Body has been condemned – `Panch

Rachit Ati Adham Sarira' (Manas, Kishkindha 11|2). In reality

humanity is the power of discrimination (vivek) i.e. knowledge of

perishable-imperishable, duty - non-duty, essential - non-essential,

permitted - forbidden. This discriminative faculty is like an

illuminator, by which all worldly and spiritual affairs are properly

carried out. Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek. Such an instrument is

not available in other forms of life. In the human body the

intellect occupies a much larger portion, in which there are more

particles (tantu) of knowledge. The heart area extends ten fingers

below the throat and ten fingers above the navel. In this heart

area, the intellect resides and its place of operating is the brain.

Vivek (discrimination) comes in the intellect (buddhi); it is not an

attribute of the intellect (buddhi). Intellect is the evolutes of

insentient nature. Intellect is like a magnifying glass. Magnifying

glass concentrates the rays of sun. The magnifying glass

concentrates the burning power, while a mirror centers and reflects

the illuminating power. Due to being very attached to enjoying

pleasures and hoarding, man even after hearing spiritual talks he is

unable to walk towards Paramatma.

 

Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt.

 

As a wealthy man, attached to pleasures, generally doesn't come to

Satsang (spiritual discourses), similarly demi-gods also being

attached to pleasures don't turn towards Bhagavaan (God). But if

they do come there is no objection. Kings like Ambrish, Janak etc.

have also been God's devotees. Sinners have also been God's

devotees; because at the root everyone is God's fragment (ansh,

part). So no one is prohibited from walking towards Paramatma (God).

 

In human body (physical body) there is not even an ounce of purity.

It is only a factory for manufacturing stool-urine. Therefore it is

not the human body that is praiseworthy, but its appropriate usage

is praiseworthy.

 

Those that have attained God, they are awakened. Those that are

engaged in spiritual practices are asleep. Those that are not

engaged in Bhagwaan are corpses. Those that are sleeping they can

wake up, but how can a corpse wake up?

 

Earning money is not in our sphere of control, but day and night we

are engaged in this effort. Worshipping (devotion, remembrance,

chanting, meditation, reading etc.) is in our sphere of control but

that is not being done! Working the entire life and thereafter

earning lakh rupees is also not in our sphere of control; but lakh-

three lakh Divine Name (God's name) can be recited daily. That thing

which is going to go with us is not being accumulated, but that

thing which will remain here itself, that alone we are hoarding!

 

Charity is done only with that money which is earned ethically.

Wells made with money earned via unjust means is not of use to

anyone; just like `Modi's well' in Bikaner.

 

From " Gyaan ke Deep Jale " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, pg 150-

151.

 

Ram Ram

 

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

If you prefer only one daily gita talk message from us, please

inform us. Thank you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Re: Conscience , It's Role, It's Awakening as per Gita

QUESTION: What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

------------------------------

ALSO COMBINING THE DISCUSSION THREAD -Intellect-Its-Role?

Where It Resides? Connection with Vivek (Discrimination)?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION

 

Jay Shri Krishna

I have one question. In Gita (7 - 4,5) God has described his 2 kinds

of nature: " Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and ego-

these constitute My nature divided into eight parts. This is indeed

My lower (apara/insentient) nature; but different from it, O mighty-

armed is My higher (para/sentient)nature- the life-element (Jiva),

by which this universe is sustained. "

 

Except these 10 elements (including God) nothing is left out. So

where does viveka (conscience) come in picture?

Thanks, Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS - JAN 12, 2009

1. Is vivek another element before realization?

2. After realization doesn't vivek exist?

3. How does vivek turn into realization? (DETAILS BELOW)

Thanks, Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

My observations on Varunji's questions. He is right in identifying

Viveka belonging to Chaitanya-Consciousness-Life-God and not to

great elements-insentience!

 

Conscience is how Consciousness-Atman responds when it is necessary

to respond, and such response is right action. We all know moments

when we feel overwhelmingly to take certain actions, or to avoid

certain actions and they turn out to be right! It is Conscience that

tells us.

Thus, it is not a separate element, just a word to indicate our

innermost(gut) feeling based response of God-Consciousness. Viveka

has slightly different connotation. Viveka-discrimination is between

that which we ARE, Consciousness-Beingness-ISness-Sat and what we

believe we are, body-mind individual.

When such Viveka takes place in an apparant individual,

Individuality-me-ego sense is dissolved in the ocean of Consciousness

(Chetna) and Conscience speaks loudest through that person. When

established in our Impersonal Beingness(sat) through this Viveka, it

is God realization only.

Viveka-Conscience is ever existent being higher nature of Paramatma.

Ignorance covers Viveka, Ignorance being identification of

Consciousness with body-mind object.

Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

Re: Conscience & Para (Real) - Apara (Unreal) Nature of God in Gita

The more we discuss the meaning of different words, the more we get

into confusion. Actually what Gita says is so simple that it can be

understood by everyone wishing to think himself. No amount of

discussion and debates with words will ever make people understand

about conscience or Nature of God. Sadhana is about practising to

live in the illusion of differences and diverse identies and at the

same time constantly being aware of the single source from which

everything arises and is contained in.

All thuoghts including the concept of God, all words in Gita or any

other words, all physical bodies, mind, work, life, names ---all

arise from, are contained in, are manifestation of and contains the

SINGLE ORIGINAL SOURCE that we refer to variously as GOD or PARA or

PARAATMAN or NATURE 0r CREATION or CREATOR. The different

forms/identies that we see or recognise are all APARA or the various

reflections of PARA the single original source. PAra is the REAL

source that eludes us while all that we deal with in life are APARA

and the great diversity of APARA keeps us tied to the illusion of

you, I, they, mine, our, your, etc. We are all slaves of APARA

nature that has been created by the mother source nature of PARA.

There is nothing more to know or discuss. Sadhak lives the life in

Apara but tries to remember that Para is the source, cover,

container of all Apara. Moving from different identities (APARA) to

single identity (PARA) is Sadhana.

 

Basudeb Sen

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I AM NO BODY. I DO NOTHING "

 

EGO ! In fact this world is basically sustained by the Jeeva through

EGO !! Ego consists of " me or mine " and " likings and dislikings " (

Raag and Dvesha). With reference to your true nature this EGO in

fact is imaginary or fictitious. Because you are basically, Chetan (

sentient), Amal ( Faultless) , Sahaj Sukhraasi ( Naturally and

effortlessly blissful) , Ishwar ansha ( Part of God and God only-

not at all a part of Nature made of 8 elements referred in BG

7:4/5) , Avinaashi ( Imperishable). When ME and MINE are applied by

Jeeva towards Jagat ( World) , then ME starts appearing to you as

BODY, and mine starts appearing to you as world, worldly people and

things, mind, intellect etc. Simultaneously emerges in you likings

and dislikings and with that DESIRES. That is the end of you- the

pure you and beginning of Jeeva,, beginning of DUKHALAYAM and

beginning of endless calamities. Another name of worldly attachment

is Calamities !!

 

Sanatan Dharma addresses basically this EGO. Gita throughout

requires you to become EGOLESS. A Karma Yogi PURIFIES his ego by not

considering world to be me or mine and by applying whatever he has

got from the world- body, mind, intellect, worldly possessions,

powers, authority, wealth, virtue etc all - everything back to the

service of world, while himself remaining aloof, nishkaam,

expectationless from the results of service. A Jnana Yogi ELIMINATES

the very ego. He simply does not consider anything worldly to ME or

Mine. A Bhakti Yogi CHANGES his ego. He replaces ME part of Ego as

PART OF GOD ( I am of God) , and Mine part of Ego again to be God (

Mere to Girdhar Gopal). Result: Doosaro Na Koi ( Nothing else is

mine).

 

All three Yogis ( there are only three) DO NOT consider " ME " to be

BODY. You are not BODY. Hence Jeeva here replies to Mr Conscience I

AM NO BODY. I am imaginary. I am fictitious. I am no body. I am not

body. " I " does not exist. There is no " I " ! Jeeva !! What is

Jeeva except EGO- likings and dislikings, desires because Me is body

and Mine is world ? What is Jeeva except sense of " I " ? If ego is

eliminated/corrected/changed from worldly to divine- there is no

Jeeva ! Either SELF remains behind or GOD remains. World goes !! In

fact the world never existed except in the mind of JEEVA ! The world

does not exist! VASUDEVA only exists !! Vasudevah Sarvam !!

 

What do you do ? Nothing in fact. Things are happening of their own.

You are just

connecting/disconnecting/associating/disassociating/accepting/rejecti

ng !! You are doing nothing ! Jeeva does nothing. Says Gita

categorically- AHANKAAR VIMUDHATMA KARTAHAMITI MANYATE – Foolish

Jeeva, under influence/ ignorance/darkness of Ego ASSUMES/ ACCEPTS

that " I AM DOER " !! In fact I DO NOTHING !! Mark here the words "

VIMUDHATMA " – under ignorance/disillusioned ! In Upanishads , Ego is

stated to be residing in " IGNORANCE ZONE " ( Agyaanmaya Kosha) !!

Therefore here Jeeva says to Mr Conscience that I DO NOTHING !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

In this great story, so beautifully being explained by Vyasji and

Jee Jee Shashikalaji, for benefit of all sadhaks , based on the

eternal teachings of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj _

 

all three questions asked are fundamental questions.

 

1. WHAT IS THIS ?- is a question pertaning to the world (Jagat) !

 

2 WHO ARE YOU?- is a question pertaning to Self (Jeeva) !

 

3 WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN ? - is a question leading you to Paramatma

(Jagdish) ! It helps in firming up your objective , your goal !!

 

These questions require " discrimination " (Viveka) to answer. In

Animal form of life such questions are not possible to be raised. In

demi-gods , they are unnecessary. But in human life they are vital.

 

Answers to these questions definitely lead you to Liberation.

 

Narain Narain

Rajendra J Bohra

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Sadhak Varunji has asked a real genuine question and in my view THE

BEST QUESTION so far in last 6 months on Holy Gita.

 

He can be replied in many ways. Swamiji equated VIVEKA with God and

categorically stated that VIVEKA gets converted into God

Realisation. Since God is one of 1o elements, Viveka gets covered

there. Conscience is voice of God!

 

I also feel that elements like Equanimity, discrimination ( Viveka),

nishkaam bhav- they are functions too! What is wrong in clubbing

them and seeing them as functions of " stablised intellect " referred

in BG 2 ! Intellect once it " stablises " becomes changeless !

 

Thirdly, the pure soul ( self) has powers to

associate/disassociate/accept/reject/connect/disconnect. Pure soul

has only that power and nothing else- Swamiji categorically stated

that. Now granted that- the power of discrimination(viveka)

automatically becomes power of Self as discrimination is essential

to determine whether to accept or reject etc. Self is part of 10 !

 

Sadhak Varunji should come back if he is not convinced. He must !

Please go deep in this. It is a real genuine query. I will also come

back if I find from Swamiji's discourses/books more on this.

 

Thanks Varunji.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Thus asked : He said I am no body. I do nothing

 

Now you think, you realise. Am I body? I am certainly not the body.

Who feels " bondage " ? Certainly the body is not feeling bondage. Who

will go to heaven or hell ? Certainly the body will not go ! I am

not the name by which I am called. What was I before the name was

given to me ? I am not rich. There are people before whom I feel

poor. I am not poor. ' There are people before whom I feel rich. I

am just, watching, I am just feeling pleasure/pains, I am just

agreeing, I am just witnessing..... but that is not " doing " . However

deep you may think, -the fact will remain that you are " no " " body " .

You are not " body " .

 

You are not " doing " anything. You are simply accepting; or

rejecting or associating/disassociating with an action done / to be

done by the body or with an activity happening in the

world. " Accepting " is not " doing'I (e.g. you accepted some body to

be your father .... What did you " do " ? What was the action at

your end ?).

 

I AM NO BODY: Ego has no base to survive. It never had any basis.

Because You the pure you, got associated with it/supported, it was

surviving. ! Ego controls intellect. Intellect controls mind. Mind

controls sense organs.; Sense organs control physical body .......

all of them are part of world, arise out of world, remain always

in the world and disintegrate in the end in the world only ! What

you carry with you in the next birth is " your " svabhav, association,

attitude towards the world. " Me " & " mine " are fictitious, imaginary

& unreal.

 

I DO NOTHING: Breaths are coming & going. Blood is circulating in

the body. Body is functioning. Food is digesting. Diseases are

coming & going. Eyes are fluttering. Thoughts are coming & ,going.

Body is changing. World is changing. Circumstances, situations,

incidences are happening. Everything is changing. Everything is

moving. Nothing is static.. Even a dead body or a stone changes..

Activity is constantly, unceasingly, happening in the body .... in

the world: Cold & warm seasons are coming & going. Sun rises, sun

sets. Thoughts are coming and going in the mind. What efforts you do

to fall asleep? What am I doing ? What am I doing to cause hunger &

thirst, to take birth, to grow, to deteriorate, to fall sick .. and

to die ? Body is working & changing.. If 'I am working & changing,

then who is observing, who is witnessing the changes ? How can

the " Scene " & the " Seer " be the same?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Sir Vyasji, I remember reading the same in Swamiji's books that

vivek turns into tattvagyaan (realization of truth). I have 3

questions on this statement - 1. Is vivek another element before

realization? 2. After realization doesn't vivek exist? 3. How does

vivek turn into realization?

 

That element is said to be insentient (jad) which doesn't know

itself as well as others. And sentient (chetan) is referred to as

that conscious element which knows itself as well as others. So as

per this principle the first eight elements can be ruled out. Now

that leaves us with the God and its fragment Self (jeeva). Vivek has

to be surrounding these 2 elements. It cannot be a separate entity

because if it becomes then equanimity, sentiment of devotion (bhakti-

baav) etc. will also be different elements which don't seem to be

possible.

 

Also vivek has to be immortal because one who knows the distinction

between mortal and immortal has to be immortal. Jeeva being fragment

of God is Sat-Chit-Anand (Immortal-Consciousness-Bliss). So like

immortality, is this second attribute of consciousness also somewhat

related to vivek?

 

Thanks,

Varun Paprunia

==============================================================

COMBINING DISCUSSION THREAD - Intellect - Its Role? Where It

Resides? Connection with Vivek (Discrimination)?

----------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I believe the extract below from this post, could do with a good

airing. I realise that the simple model of the human body falls

very short of the higher reality, this is something that the

individual can discover for him/herself, by various spiritual

practices. (Woe betide those that play around outside the spirit, in

such things).

 

I have disciplined myself , (sometimes I have fallen outside the

guidelines, for that I apologize to moderator ). But at

the same time regarding, how many thousands readers of these two

sites? The ones who have fallen between the cracks, they are my

beloved fellow imperfect. Maybe the extract below can shine a light

on their confusion.

 

'...The heart area extends ten fingers below the throat and ten

fingers above the navel. In this heart area, the intellect resides

and its place of operating is the brain....'

 

I apologize for my verbosity .

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hare Krishna

 

I would like to paste some text from SSS related to intellect and

realization

 

" Gyaan hone par tattva mein kuch farak nahi padta. Farak us buddhi

mein padhta hain, jisme agyan hai. "

" After realization there is no change in tattva (truth-element).

Change occurs in that intellect which has ignorance in it. " (Page

775, column 2 - para3, line 1-2)

 

Now the question is that what change can occur in that intellect.

Answer is on same page

 

" Sharir-Sansar to upar se waise hi dikhte hain, par unme astitva-

buddhi mit jaati hai.. "

" Body-world seems to be the same from above, but 'It has an

independent existence'- this ignorance from intellect is wiped out. "

(same page, column 1)

 

SSS = Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu

 

Thank you,

Varun Paprunia

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

Mr.Mike is correct about intellect residing. This is very clearly

explained and shown with proof by one saint called Veera Bramam

lived in Andra Pradesh, India. The sant has given details of how it

functions by Chakras in human body. The Sant took to Jeeva Samadhi

in 18th century I presume. His Samadhi is in Caddapah, Andra Pradesh

even to day, like that of Saint Gnaneswar.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

The heart is physically present in the body. Intellect may be

present in the

brain but real vivek or discrimination can be developed only through

spiritual

practices like sadhana, satsang, sewa and meditation.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

-----------------------------

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

There are long explanations In short human being have the mind

having mind intellect which creates thoughts in the mind and then it

goes for its action. There is a conscience means atman which finally

decides what to do ?

 

This is the process of our handling our life. When our coNsciousness

reaches the final stage it comes nearer to God. Then there are

chances for liberation ( a long process )

 

Thanks

 

Truly yours

 

S S Bhatt

-------------------------------

 

Very interesting.

 

Thank you.

 

Warm regards

Captain S.M.Divekar

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Firstly I extend a greatful Thanks to you to include me in your team.

With Respect and Devine love

Shiv Shankar

-----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I fully agree with Sadhak Pratapji Bhatt. His description of

Conscience is very timely. When the " reflected " intelligences ( in

the words of Swamiji- Viveka- as quoted by Brother Mike Keenor under

another Q) which are only Pure Consciousness , are intent on or on

the point of willing or ideation, then , they attain to the state of

individual souls or individualised consciousness- JUST AS WATER

ASSUMES THE STATE OF WAVES !

 

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that there are two ways to

awaken your conscience. Sorrow and Satsanga ! Here in this story the

man is tormented by affliction and sorrow. Serious sadhaks hence

forth should meticulously read each and word of this story. Read

between the lines too! Read rather " feel " ! Put your self

into " equanimous " zone and then read. We are reaching climax. We are

only a couple of steps away from benediction!

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " WHAT IS THIS? WHO ARE YOU? WHY DO YOU RUN IN

VAIN ?

 

And that voice asks you questions ! What is this? Are you supposed

to be in this shape? What have you achieved so far? Only that which

must leave you !! To achieve what must leave you- is no achievement

in reality. A human keeps wasting time and effort in achieving

temporary, perishables and momentaries.... What else? What else we

can achieve by using temporary tools like mind, body, intellect ?

WHO ARE YOU ? Are you what you are reflecting /believing/assuming

yourself to be? Are you the name by which you are called? Are you

the the ego or mind or intellect or the body? If yes, then how you

are witnessing changes in ego, mind, intellect, body ? Can " seer " be

the " seen " ? WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN? How much compromises, sins you

have made to fulfill your desires? Have your desires been fulfilled?

Do you now find yourself into that state where nothing remains to be

done or got or known by you?

 

These are the " discriminatory " questions. Real questions. These are

asked by conscience to Jeeva. What is Jeeva? Ego ! " Jeeva " resides

in " ego " - in " causal body " - in " ignorance zone " !

 

Hence the question - WHO ARE YOU ? - is replied in this great story

by EGO !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I've read Ji Ji Shashikalaji's article deeply also I recall her

dialog between Jiva and Maya, and also appreciate Michael Hagen's

gut feeling concept, I would like to go a little deeper.

I think I told this story before, in the current light I think I

would like to look at it again and add an addendum.

A true story I read when I was a young man:

A reporter for a newspaper, used to work himself very hard, living on

coffee and junk etc., but he had the habit of dropping out for a

complete break for a few weeks. This time he rented a cell(room) in a

monastery of a silent order. He took to meditation/contemplation,

tuning into the ethos of the place. He took to sitting in the back of

the chapel to listen to the monks as they chanted their devotions.

He would then leave prior to the end of the service.

One morning he remained alone after the monks had left and was drawn

before the alter, whereby he collapsed in grief pain horror spiritual

agony self loathing remorse outreaching and so on. And found he was

not alone, a very old monk had returned, comforted him, assured him

this was not unknown to him. Of course this journalist was never the

same again. I never thought it would happen to me!

The heart can release suddenly, as it were, like an explosion of

love, overpowering, one changes there and then.

I think I will leave it there for now.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Conscience when it awakens asks questions. It straight away attacks

the very roots of your existence! " Me and Mine " - Ego !

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " me " . WHO ARE YOU?

Body or soul? Temporary or permanent? Perishable or imperishable?

Sentient or inert? Seer or the seen? Kshetra or Kshetragya? Mortal

or immortal? Ever sorrowful or ever blissful?

 

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " mine " ! What is yours?

The world and the worldly people or Paramatma? Or worldly things or

body? Who is yours? To whom do you belong?

 

SATSANGA- association with virtuous people, Saints and Sages ( like

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) , association with Truth, reading of

Holy Scriptures ( Like Gita, Ramayana, Bible etc) , membership of

selfless forums like this Gita Talk Group etc- provides you the

answers to these questions.

SORROW propels/ raises such questions. SATSANGA answers such

questions.How easy! Hence Swamiji sings glories of adverse

circumstances in human life. Therefore it is sorrow and satsanga-

that help you in getting liberated. It is our foolishness that we

run away from sorrows!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Thanks GT Moderators !

 

VIVEKA - THE POWER OF DISCRIMINATION

 

When Mr Viveka takes over the hold of you, there are lots of

questions. There is a lot soul searching. Your peace gets snatched.

Conscience forces you to listen to him.You have choice still of

disregarding him, but only after hearing him !!

 

Viveka (Conscience) takes you beyond desires/mind ! It

discriminates. Viveka only and not mind that suggest to you

that " desires are insatiable " . Gita also suggests that only. Can

fire extinguish if you keep adding fuel into it?

 

You want to have good spouse, children, parents, lot of money,

robust health, fame - so that you may become happy. This is

suggestion of mind.

 

Viveka confronts you with a counter question. Whether those who have

better spouses, children, more money than you, etc - Are they

happy ?? Happiness is not in presence of worldly things, it resides

in absence of desires for worldly things.

Your mind wants to change the circumstances, situations to suit it,

to suit the desres/goals ! It never takes easy/simple ways. Your

conscience tells You that one can never change the circumstances, a

simple way is to " change yourself " . Pain lies in feeling of

deficiency within. That deficiency gets created when you desire!!

You consider your self to be big, if you have lot of money! Now who

is bigger? You or money ? We make a mockery of ourselves by

desiring. What we have to get, we shall get, irrespective of our

desiring for the same!! Worldly things will not stop coming to you

if you stop desiring- only pains will cease!! How easy ! How simple!!

 

YOUR MIND CHEATS YOU JEE WHEN IT SUGGESTS THAT " To renounce desires

is very difficult " . Ask your mind - " WHY DONT YOU SUGGEST THAT TO

FULFILL DESIRES IS IMPOSSIBLE? " That mind will never suggest to

you ! That only Mr Conscience can tell you.

 

Wake up .... Jee ... O Dear Child of God ... Wake up !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

Dear Aspirants of Peace !

 

Thank you very much for recalling my question. It was so near the

conclusion , yet it became so far. Frankly, I thought that steam has

run out of this group when real concluding time came. I even

considered unsubscribing but something in me stopped (

conscience?) ! Looking forward to the deliberations.

 

Conscience according to me is " gut feeling " , a sixth sense,

something which is present in a human being definitely. Something

which is capable of tormenting a sinner. Something related with

inner peace of a human. I agree with Sadhaks that it should be

respected. However I am eager to know how it leads you to ultimate

truth. How to convert it into what you sadhaks call as liberation or

benediction- freedom from the sorrow for ever !

 

Thanks, once again.

 

Michael Hagen

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Thanks Shashikalaji. Certainly that story depicts the role of VIVEKA

( Conscience) in the best possible manner. That story is the story

of each one of us , having been quoted in YOGA VAASHISHTHA –

unquestionably one of the most respected and profound heritage

Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Viveka – how does it discriminate?

What does it discriminate. How it functions. What is the result of

disrespect to Conscience.? What is the result of respecting to it?

All these factors are covered in this story. I had covered this

story upto " HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE

CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH KIND, AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS

AWAKENED BY ME FOR A WHILE. "

 

A human being is seen constantly by VIVEKA. Viveka remains as a

spectator to your conduct and when you pay respect to it , it takes

over the responsibility of guide, friend and philosopher to you. If

you keep listening to the dictates of Viveka, it can lead you to

Liberation. This story is complete story in itself of a man's

journey into human life – from Bondage to Liberation. Conscience

holds you BY FORCE. It snatches away your logical mind. It snatches

away your very tranquillity, peace. Nothing torments a human more

than his conscience ! Condition is – you must not ignore it

consistently – under sway of desires.

 

Before I continue with the story let me request sadhaks , to refresh

themselves by reading the text and responses again. It was explained

that DESIRES for worldly pleasures, ( Maya) is responsible for a

man's agony and lack of peace. When a person gets utterly helpless,

caught in the web of its own mind, own desires- a voice comes- a

powerful voice from deep inside –

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain?

 

This, Dear Sadhaks , is the voice of VIVEKA asking to JEEVA !

Jeeva !! That Jeeva who now is nothing except EGO !! Jeeva forgets

who actually he is ! He considers himself to be body, to be say

Vyas N B, to be an assumed entity. Conscience tells him, explains

him what actually he is. Conscience asks questions. Conscience lets

him " discriminate " . Conscience holds him BY FORCE ! Read the

questions asked by Viveka to Jeeva ( Ego- Embodied self) ! Admire in

the meantime the depth and simplicity of the questions.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Friends

 

Thanks to Jee Jee for recalling Mike's unconcluded Q. I think it

will make us all wiser. Conscience or viveka as it is called in

native language is experienced/felt by all of us sometime or other.

I agree with Mike Keenor that it must be discovered to be

beyond " intellect " . I think conscience prevents a human being from

abstaining from evil deeds. Still if a man sins, then conscience

even punishes internally a man and distorts his psyche. Conscience

if it is hurt then never allows a person to remain at peace. Hard

core criminals perhaps disrespect the conscience and then only they

can commit evil deeds. Conscience to me is like a police man present

in you. I am happy that there is religion in the world which not

only analyses this extra terrestial faculty in a human being, and

leads what you call soul to utilise it properly and then reap

highest rewards. Wonderful ! It is astonishing to find that there

are Saints of the class of Swami Ramsukhdas who can really throw

light on such an element and can guide humanity at large on proper

utilisation of such element. I also agree to the latest post of Mr

Pratap Bhatt who so eloquently explained the element. Of course Mr

Vyas N B and all other learned sadhaks have thrown light on the

element. It is indeed great to be part of this Gita Talk forum

 

Thank You all

 

Luca B

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

I request GT Moderators to merge an earlier not fully concluded Q on

Story of mind from Yoga Vaashishtha under this question.(It was a Q

by Michael Hagen , I recall).

 

When Mr Conscience takes over the reigns ... There are plenty of

questions. Plenty of soul searching. You start " discriminating " !

You start thinking - Am I body? Who feels the " bondage " ? Certainly

the body is not feeling the bondage! Who will go to heaven or hell?

Certainly body will not go! You start thinking deeply as to who you

actually are. Why you are.

 

In that Michael Hagen question ( Story of mind- In GT group it was

listed under the Q - Biggest astonishment of the world) which due to

our going on vacations could not be concluded , the story takes you

to conscience. It is conscience who holds that man and asks - " What

is this? Who are you? Why do you run in vain? "

 

If GT Moderators can kindly merge that thread under this Question-

it will help the Sadhaks immensely- particularly because writer of

that story was Mr Conscience ! Alternately this posting may be

listed under that Q.

 

Thanks Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

PASTED PORTIONS OF MESSAGE. TO READ ENTIRE STRING PLEASE VISIT :

/message/1764

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Dear Aspirants of Peace

 

On this question , though I dont have much to state as my knowledge

of Gita is very very limited. But recently a friend gave me an

Indian Holy text in which the following short story was there. It

appeared very surprising story to me. I wonder if any one can throw

more light on it.

 

" THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN.

WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED , THAT FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND

EYES, STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF,

CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN MOUTH.

THEN, GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST. THEN, AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING

AND LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH

KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY ME FOR A

WHILE.

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do nothing " . " You

are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " . THUS , SAYING ,

HE WEPT . THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN

THAT HUGE FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT

FOREST IS THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

My question to this forum is to explain the above story. Who held

whom? Who asked questions ? What is the substance ? What is the

moral?

 

Michael Hagen

----------------

In Gita Yudhistir was asked the same question and he replied that

the greatest surprise was that though everyone knows that he has to

die someday, we all behave and go through life as if we are going to

live forever. That was the greatest of surprises in this world.

The moral of Michael Hagen's story is that we are all lost souls

going about the motions of living, without knowing what we are

doing, without knowing the purpose of our existence. We are like the

man who runs and keeps on falling in the well because we do

thoughtless things over and over again. Only a God-realised person

or through meditation can one know the real meaning of life.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

------------------

 

Hari Om

 

You have indeed presented to all of us , the true and real story of

each of us. All sadhaks should feel grateful to you. Sadhaks like

Michael and our Mike Keenor are real and respectable examples of

how a soul gallops towards the TRUTH once a desire or need has arisen

in it to find out the Divine . Soul recognises not any distinctions

of caste, creed, colour, country,. A burning desire is more than

enough to progress in spiritual uplifting.

 

This story in the first reading appears " mindless " though it is

exclusively about the " mind " - a funny story but very serious. For

serious sadhaks such stories set an order, a process of " sadhana " ….

And lead them straight to their goal- freedom from pain /sorrow …

systematically … step by step. For intelligent people such stories

are a challenge , a riddle, a reminder ! It is too brief in size but

too big in effect- like an arrow.

 

This story covers substance of . Soul ( SAT) , Conscience,. Jeeva,

Ego, Mind, Intellect, Destiny, Svabhav ( nature/habit) , Jagat (

World), Worldly Pleasures, Pain of the soul, Desires, MAYA ( Avidya,

agyaan, darkness, illusion, ignorance, stupidity, jugglery, ) ,

Knowledge ( CHIT, gyaan, light ) , Bondage, Liberation, , and

Jagdish ( God, Paramatma, ANANDA,- Divine, natural, absolute not

relative-, BLISS, PEACE ) This story is timeless. When we come

across such ocean deep stories , we cant help feeling proud of our

Religion, Saints and Sages, Heritage, and Holy Scriptures of eternal

Sanatan Dharma.

 

This " gaagar main saagar " ( Ocean in water pot) story first

thoroughly agitates and astonishes even the best of the human egos,

intellects and minds ; then gives them a powerful shock ; then

pacifies /satisfies/floors them fully. And then of course silences

them . In the end it makes YOU meet YOURSELF in SAT CHIT ANANDA

FORM.!

 

This story is the state of JIVA in his present form and is applicable

to all of us. It starts with Bondage and ends with Liberation and the

JIVA claiming the SATCHITANANDA FORM of Paramatma. Nothing explains

more eloquently the role of MAYA than this powerful short story. Who

else can be the writer of this story than CONSCIENCE which is direct

agent of Paramatma living in the human body along with JIVA ? Like

two birds on a tree – referred once by Mike Keenor in one of his

messages !! Who else can hold the soul so powerfully and ask such

direct questions than CONSCIENCE ?

 

It is from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma –

called YOGA VAASHISHTHA - where Sage Vaashishtha teaches Lord

Rama .

 

Balance in next message. In the meantime serious sadhaks should re

read this story – seriously & peacefully, in order to gain out of it.

The best way to read it is to " feel " it so that your mind becomes a

scene and you become the seer and your conscience starts

responding. " To feel " – put yourself into equanimous zone in which

zone your conscience always resides – be like a court judge- no

personal likings / dislikings. Read it as a challenge to your mental

equipment. Believe for once in what ever clues I have given here in

above.

 

1. THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN

 

This world is the forest in which we all, with minds, wander about.

It is a forest because with the cool air and beauty of nature ,

there are thorns also. There are wild animals also and chances of

our getting lost too. Being forest there are no ways visible. We

have to make our own ways. All the beauty and dangers of forest are

present in human life. - of every body- no exceptions.

 

2 WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED, THAT FEARFUL ONE

 

We are not peaceful. We are confused - constantly seeking pleasure

and happiness. We are fearful. We don't know what the next moment

might have in store for us. We may die anytime, anywhere. We are

confused as well as fearful because we are basically split at the

sub conscience level. While body, mind, ego etc " natuarally " remain

estalished in prakrithi (world/nature) only being part of them, but

we don't belong to nature. It is law that fear develops when one

enters the arena to which he doesnot belong or ONLY when when is in

company of " others " .. When we get attracted/connected

with " stranger/other " world, fear and confusion stick with us

permanently, (which fear goes ONLY when we disconnect from world).

Constant changes and uncertainties of the world also make us

confused and fearful.

 

3 WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

We are equipped in this forest with sharp intellect and vision,

imagination of mind. With capacity to work hard, and control other

species, animals, and fellow men ( a thousand hands) and an

exceptional vision ( a thousand eyes) we set about in this world to

seek pleasure and peace. We seek help of mind. We make efforts to

fulfill our desires.We want to be the best, the wealthiest, the most

intelligent, the most knowledgeable, the healthiest, the greatest.

We want to have every worldly comfort which our Dear and our own

mind can conceive! We don't want to lose. We always want to win. We

are proud of our mind and our intellect (vision). Mind gives a

solution to our eternal desire of being peaceful and happy. DESIRE

FOR WORLDLY THINGS. Since we like mind, we have connected with mind,

WE ACCEPT the suggestions of mind. We start seeking worldly

pleasures.

 

4 STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF, CRYING

AND RUNNING ...

 

Once mind desires, the sorrow and pain is a must in all

circumstances. What else we can do in the beginning, middle or end

of worldly desires except beating ourselves, brooding, fretting? The

beatings referred in the story are the blows of fancies,

imaginations and whims. They are indeed caused by one self . We only

hurt ourselves and no body else when we are in fits of anger, greed,

anxieties, ill temper, attachment ... Desires! We keep hurting

ourselves and sufferring mental agonies and turmoils, inner storms,

agitations, turbulences, fears and what not. We cry ..... We try to

run away from adverse circumstances caused exclusively due to your

mind desiring worldly pleasures and things. Running away from

adversity but again desiring favourable circumstances !! Sometimes

the desire is to " get pleasure " , sometime it is to " remove pains " .

Desire continues, subjects change!!

 

5 FELL BLINDLY INTO WELL WITH HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Desires have hidden mouth. They blind the desirer too. At the outset

they look goals, pleasant. Health, wealth, fame, affluence, power,

position, status, flashy cars, spacious home, right, virtue,

authority, respect, .... great feelings. Desires are beautiful.

Pains come into experience in abundance later.

 

BLINDLY .... You get blinded by desires. Pains get hidden.This

process of blocking your vision is in 3 stages. In the first stage,

the truth is as hidden as fire is hidden by smoke. In the second

stage, the reality is as not visible as your face in a mirror with a

layer of dust on it. In the final stage the gets as concealed as a

fetus in the womb !!!

 

FELL/WELL : " fell blindly into a well " here in this story means Jiva

going to hell . Here one life time ends. Desires, (kaam), reaction

of anger emanating out of unfullfilled desires ( krodha) and greed

arising out of fulfilled desires ( lobha) are three gates of hell .

( Refer BG 16:21) . Hence " well " referred here can only be " hell " .

 

Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is

reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell,

 

6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME.

 

He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " -

habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes

back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be

substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of

past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of

destiny.

 

HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING

HIMSELF OFTEN,

 

Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He

still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but

decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove,

to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something,

to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to

get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more

worldly pleasures. But all worldly .

 

He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of

efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the

desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a

decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not

haunt him badly.

 

7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING

 

But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too.

Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in

conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start

coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys

labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been

described as

 

" AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES "

 

8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got

exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is

back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and

same hell again ! Because desires continue.

 

Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of

pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And

continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the

attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the

connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect

because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal

body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only

do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at

the first time !!

 

Any views Shashikalaji ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna.

 

VYAS N B

-----------------------------

Dear Mike,

 

It is an extra-ordinary story of a spiritual seeker and his

observation on himself transparently. I felt as if it is told of me

and my own foolishness! Thanks for sharing it. This is my

interpretation of the story.

 

Story: FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST

 

… is the confused jungle of thoughts in one's perception.

 

Story: MAN WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED

 

… is the ego (or individual) lost in it.

 

Story: FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

… is the infitude of variance in the perceived world perpetually

throwing mutually conflicitng fears and desires on the individual.

 

Story: STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF

 

… means afterall the individual himself is harming himself thanks to

his ignorance.

 

 

Story: CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN

MOUTH

 

… means the lamenting fool drowns oneself beneath the ignorance of

depression in the name of sadhana shutting down one's sensory

operatus fearful of its transparency on one's reality.

 

Story: GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST

 

… the fool entered into silence with no appreciation cannot

withstand its oblivious nature and runs back into the same life full

of chaotic thoughts and actions.

 

Story: AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING AND

LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

… the story of repeated convolutions of delusions, illusions and

halluscinations with the worldly interaction continues till one's

tendencies (Vasana in Sanskrit) continue to haunt oneself.

 

Story: HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS

OF SUCH KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY

ME FOR A WHILE. HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you?

Why do you run in vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do

nothing " . " You are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " .

 

… the inner wisdom keeps its check on one's misconduct in one's

spiritual progress and acts as a catalyst to force one into self-

examination to root-cause one's problem rather than scrutinizing the

environment … realizes that the environment was never the enemy, but

oneself hiding from oneself perpetually … the individual comfounded

not understanding (not withstanding) what is going on wonders, " Who

am I? Am I not my enemy in the first place? Why am I running

frantically? Even if I run for ever, can I escape from myself?

Because of my association with my image, I am corrupt … is it not

time to drop this image? "

 

Story: THUS , SAYING , HE WEPT .

 

… But … how to drop that image – that is where, Mike, I am stuck

personally!

 

THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN THAT HUGE

FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT FOREST IS

THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

… definitely … the confused thoughts and actions still swarm me …

thanks to the image I am unable to let go … that is where, Mike, I

am stuck personally … I suppose the image will drop out one day …

when, I realize that I do not need to hide in the well … when I

realize the wandering itself is WONDERFUL in itself … when I realize

that there need not be push of desire to get out of a well and there

need not be any pull of fear drowning me into its oblivion … when I

realize that the very fear and desire are rooted in the very image I

am holding on to … when I realize that I don't need to frantically

recycle myself between oblivious wandering in the world and drowning

in the well … probably by continuous self-scrutiny in spite of such

frantic wandering around and drwoning within!!

 

Thanks for the WONDERFUL fact to teach me with its WONDERFUL

transparency.

 

THANK YOU. It is really WONDERFUL to receive the knowledge which

alone can eliminate the oblivious darkness haunting me within.

 

THANK YOU.

 

Deep Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Falling prey to " Maya " is the most astonishing wonderment in my view.

 

Some supplementary thoughts to the story explained by Tamma

Bhaiyya :

 

In the forest of worldly life our mind gets confused Jee ! and

there is a fear arising naturally in us because basically we are

permanent/ complete/never changing/ blissful - avinaashi/sahaj

sukhraasi Jee !!! But the world that this mind is attached to is -

temporary /

incomplete/deficient/ever changing/ ever sorrowful !!

 

Because of " svabhaav " (habits/individual attraction to the nature)

and past deeds/karma (association with strangers i.e the world) - we

desire worldly things and pleasure Jee !

 

Our desires are many, but as such only one Jee! ... Whatever we

think through mind .. Must happen Jee! The desires come in the form

of " my likings " ( Raag) and " my dislikings " (Dvesha). However, the

bitter truth is that simply by desiring we cannot get " worldly

pleasures " Jee, we can only get Daddy ! But that Daddy is

beyond " mind " Jee. Worldly pleasures are " natural " to mind, because

mind belongs to the world Jee, so does intellect and ego Jee( notion

of me/mine).

This mind (which I had said before is better if thrown in the

dustbin) seeks world and worldly pleasures only Jee.

 

This mind cheats us Jee in this regard. We like absolute fools

believe that " desiring " is necessary for getting worldly things. We

forget under the illusion caused by me/mine notion ( MAYA) that

while we don't desire sickness or death or adversity, still we get

it Jee. Even highly educated people, possessing a thousand hands and

eyes, say - " You must desire. The world will come to a grinding

hault if you stop desiring Jee. They think that if you don't have

desires, you are dead " Jee!

 

What a belief, Jee !! How wonderful, Jee!! How surprising !! As if

they desired to take birth, to grow, to fall sick, to deteriorate,

to die and as if they really selected their parents, children,

spouses, relatives, circumstances, situations, incidences, states,

happennings, colour, caste, creed, country, time, age !!! WHAT A

MAYA ! WHAT AN ILLUSION !!

 

That the most astonishing wonderment in human life, Jee! Maya !

Ignorance!! Stupidity !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having

complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not

been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers

immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps

cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and

permanent pain.

 

Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment

of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is

cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not

bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind ,

brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is

no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we

get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000

dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire

has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had

receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow

till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind,

and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !!

 

Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more

desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as

well as in sorrow,mind cheats us.

 

But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment

being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our

fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They

continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They

are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every

wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God !

 

When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly

suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by

telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the

time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that

happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is

responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr

Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was

bad " ) !

 

But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No !

They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my

vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me .....

mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ......

Non sense !!

 

What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear

Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ?

Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from "

sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) ,

part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave

and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !!

 

This is Maya , Jee !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

There is nothing greater than Paramatma. Whatever great thing you

have received, Paramatma is greater than even that. If you get

anything greater than Paramatma (surprisingly), then please,

immediately share will all of us, so that we also come to know. But

as such there is not such a thing, or else it would have not escaped

Swamiji's sight. Thank you !

 

Sarvottam

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

SIMPLE PROCESS OF AWAKENING OF CONSCIENCE

 

The world has got a peculiarity. It always cheats, it always commits

treachery. In fact the world does not cheat , rather cheating occurs

in the world. Reason is that we get attracted towards the world to

get pleasures. But in the end- as a law- every pleasure essentially

gets converted into pain- By sheer nature of the pleasure. Whatever

rises, sets. If a certain pleasure has come to you, it has come to

you only to go! At the end of its tenure, the pleasure ends. Hence

when you get pain, sorrow, unhappiness, when you feel helplessness ,

THEN AN ADVICE , A REMINDER " comes into your INTELLECT " -

that " Nothing is mine in the world "

 

This reminder, this thought, this feeling, this experience AWAKENS

YOUR VIVEKA provided you know how to make use of that reminder!!

 

If even after getting pain, sorrow, helplessness- you still desire

to become happy- your conscience will not fully awaken. Because the

very cause of pain is " desire for happiness " . If you attempt to

remove " dukha " (sorrow) by getting " pleasures " - you are

unconsciously increasing, multiplying dukha only. Because the cause

of sorrow is desire for happiness and nothing else.

 

Therefore- WE MUST- when we receive pain/sorrow- relinquish the

desire for happiness ! On the other hand we must strive to find out

the reasons for pain/sorrow.

 

Says Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, categorically_

 

WHEN YOU RELINQUISH THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS AND WHEN YOU SEARCH THE

REASONS FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS YOUR VIVEKA (CONSCIENCE) AWAKENS !

 

Satsanga then greatly helps you. As Mike Keenor said-

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

As Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj said-

 

BINU SATSANGA VIVEKA NA HOI ( You don't acquire power of

discrimination without Satsanga)

 

To be continued- Conscience and Paramatma Realisation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Sadhaks ! When I asked this question I never thought that

deliberations will elevate to such heights. Indeed, as stated by

Sadhika Prepetina this group has a divinity of its own. What

surprises me is that in the same posting Brother Mike talks about

of importance of Satsanga, quotes BG 16:24 and in the same posting

Vyasji also talks about Satsanga being instrumental in awakening of

conscience. How common the truth becomes when it is a real truth !!

Unbelievable ! Jee Jee Shashikalaji " s Bhajan indeed reflects the

crux of what is conscience. Her example of a thief brings out a

common sentiment across all the human beings and precisely explains

what is " conscience " ! Pratapji has given absolutely dot on time

the dictionary meaning. On top of it, extracts from messages of

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What more can be more divine than

that !! Nothing pleased me more when Vyasji quickly reciprocated to

request of Prepetina to conclude fully my questions.

 

May this Forum live for ever.

 

Bandook Singh

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is that Viveka or discrimination is different and is

used in a much wider sense. My understanding is that " Vivek " is a

spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

ORIGINAL POSTING

: Shree Hari :

Ram Ram

 

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

The glory of the human body has been sung to a great extent in the

scriptures. That glory is not of the body with flesh-bones, but of

the discriminative faculty (vivek). Body has been condemned – `Panch

Rachit Ati Adham Sarira' (Manas, Kishkindha 11|2). In reality

humanity is the power of discrimination (vivek) i.e. knowledge of

perishable-imperishable, duty - non-duty, essential - non-essential,

permitted - forbidden. This discriminative faculty is like an

illuminator, by which all worldly and spiritual affairs are properly

carried out. Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek. Such an instrument is

not available in other forms of life. In the human body the

intellect occupies a much larger portion, in which there are more

particles (tantu) of knowledge. The heart area extends ten fingers

below the throat and ten fingers above the navel. In this heart

area, the intellect resides and its place of operating is the brain.

Vivek (discrimination) comes in the intellect (buddhi); it is not an

attribute of the intellect (buddhi). Intellect is the evolutes of

insentient nature. Intellect is like a magnifying glass. Magnifying

glass concentrates the rays of sun. The magnifying glass

concentrates the burning power, while a mirror centers and reflects

the illuminating power. Due to being very attached to enjoying

pleasures and hoarding, man even after hearing spiritual talks he is

unable to walk towards Paramatma.

 

Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt.

 

As a wealthy man, attached to pleasures, generally doesn't come to

Satsang (spiritual discourses), similarly demi-gods also being

attached to pleasures don't turn towards Bhagavaan (God). But if

they do come there is no objection. Kings like Ambrish, Janak etc.

have also been God's devotees. Sinners have also been God's

devotees; because at the root everyone is God's fragment (ansh,

part). So no one is prohibited from walking towards Paramatma (God).

 

In human body (physical body) there is not even an ounce of purity.

It is only a factory for manufacturing stool-urine. Therefore it is

not the human body that is praiseworthy, but its appropriate usage

is praiseworthy.

 

Those that have attained God, they are awakened. Those that are

engaged in spiritual practices are asleep. Those that are not

engaged in Bhagwaan are corpses. Those that are sleeping they can

wake up, but how can a corpse wake up?

 

Earning money is not in our sphere of control, but day and night we

are engaged in this effort. Worshipping (devotion, remembrance,

chanting, meditation, reading etc.) is in our sphere of control but

that is not being done! Working the entire life and thereafter

earning lakh rupees is also not in our sphere of control; but lakh-

three lakh Divine Name (God's name) can be recited daily. That thing

which is going to go with us is not being accumulated, but that

thing which will remain here itself, that alone we are hoarding!

 

Charity is done only with that money which is earned ethically.

Wells made with money earned via unjust means is not of use to

anyone; just like `Modi's well' in Bikaner.

 

From " Gyaan ke Deep Jale " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, pg 150-

151.

 

Ram Ram

 

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

If you prefer only one daily gita talk message from us, please

inform us. Thank you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Re: Conscience , It's Role, It's Awakening as per Gita

QUESTION: What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

------------------------------

ALSO COMBINING THE DISCUSSION THREAD -Intellect-Its-Role?

Where It Resides? Connection with Vivek (Discrimination)?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION

 

Jay Shri Krishna

In Gita (7 - 4,5) God has described his 2 kinds of nature: " Earth,

water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and ego- these constitute

My nature divided into eight parts. This is indeed My lower

(apara/insentient) nature; but different from it, O mighty-armed is

My higher (para/sentient)nature- the life-element (Jiva), by which

this universe is sustained. "

 

Except these 10 elements (including God) nothing is left out. So

where does viveka (conscience) come in picture?

Thanks, Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS - JAN 12, 2009

1. Is vivek another element before realization?

2. After realization doesn't vivek exist?

3. How does vivek turn into realization? (QUESTION DETAILS BELOW)

Thanks, Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak

I am producing a short reply from Swami Jyotiramayananda who is the

disciple of Swami Sivananda

Shankerprasad Bhatt

***************

Blessed Self, Adorations!

 

Conscience refers to the Inner Voice or inner inspiration. God

guides you through your own Conscience.

 

Good Conscience is same as purified intellect. Intellect is purified

by Sadhana---Integral Yoga; a harmonious blend of Karma, Bhakti,

Dhyana and Jnana.

 

Gita talks about Chitta Shuddhi---purity of heart. This is same as

purity of intellect. See Gita (5/7). In fact Gita, is filled with the

theme of Chitta Shuddhi or purified intellect.

 

It is also possible that they are referring to Consciousness which

is Chaitanya--the very nature of the Self.

 

May God bless you!

With regards Prem and Om,

Yours in the Lord

Swami Jyotirmayananda

------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Is group refering to Consciousness (Chaitanya) - the very nature of

Self? or simply purity of intellect (chitta suddhi)? or other?

Kindly keep explanations short and to the point. It is easy to get

lost in words.

From Gita Talk Moderators

 

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

" YOU ARE MY ENEMY . HAVING BEEN SEEN BY YOU, I AM LOST " THUS

SAYING HE WEPT.

 

As Simple as that !! Dear Sadhaks !

 

YOU ARE MY ENEMY: Enemy is always opposite. The very role of VIVEKA

is to discriminate. Para and Apara. Imperishable and Perishable.

Body and Soul. Permanent and Temporary. Khsetra and Khshetragya.

Ever Blissful and Ever Sorrowful. Sentient and Inert. Never changing

and Ever changing. Immortal and Mortal.PRAKRATI AND PURUSHA . – all

these opposite terms are to be distinctly understood. Viveka helps

you in that. Once you are able to understand, experience that you

are a permanent element, thereafter, what kind of pleasure temporary

element can give you? Once you understand that you are part of

God , immortal – what remains to be achieved by you ?

 

HAVING BEEN SEEN BY YOU , I AM LOST : This phrase should make every

Sadhak happy. It is a law that if you are able to see your mistake ,

it is gone. LAW, Dear Sadhaks, LAW ! When you realise that you are

not your EGO, when you realise that you are separate from your body

( experience, firmly believe, establish yourself- not simple

scripture knowledge- REALISATION ) , your ego is lost for ever. You

become egoless. You have achieved freedom. Nothing now needs to be

done by you, nothing needs to be got by you, nothing needs to be

known by you . GONE FOR EVER !

 

THUS SAYING , HE WEPT: This cry is lamentation of Ego upon

extinguishment.

 

Here Ego having been seen by SELF who was supporting Ego by mixing

SELF ( Para) with BODY ( Apara) – under illusion/ ignorance/ maya

and thus becoming Jeeva, has realised/ experienced that He ( SELF)

is separate from the body. The moment you do YOU ARE FREE ! What

then poor EGO do except crying?

 

What can ego do except crying, Dear Sadhaks? SIMPLY DISCRIMINATE.

SIMPLY EXPERIENCE YOUR " SELF " TO BE DISTINCT FROM YOUR BODY. The

game is over then and there !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Sadhak Pratapji has indeed beautifully replied to Varunji.However,

in my humble opinion , the last para may need to be revisited by

him. It reads as under:

 

Ignorance covers Viveka, Ignorance being identification of

Consciousness with body-mind object.

 

In my view ignorance does not cover Viveka. Disrespect to Viveka /

Voice of conscience is ignorance. Viveka / Paramatma are too big to

get covered. Ignorance can't cover Viveka. Disrespect to Viveka and

reliance by Self on ego/mind/intellect is responsible for

calamities/bondage/Jeevahood. Conscience inspite of being God

Himself resides in human body as agent/advisor/consultant only.

Conscience doesnot snatch away " independence " of Jeeva. It is not

supposed to do so. But if you respect to Him ( Just as if you

surrender to God) , He takes over your command and liberates you. It

becomes God then for you.

 

Ignorance may cover Jeeva, intellect, mind etc but not Viveka !

There is no difference between Viveka and God. Ultimately Viveka

converts into Paramatma Realisation. You yourself agree, and Swamiji

categorically stated that as Self and Prakrati both are

beginningless, hence Viveka is also beginningless. It is there since

day 1. It is not inert. I don't even subtly distinguish

between " Conscience " and " Viveka " - for me Shakti (function, power

of discrimination, Viveka ) and Shaktimaan ( one who exercises the

power, Mr Conscience, one who speaks to Jeeva from deep within, one

who watches conduct of Jeeva consistently ) , are one only. I always

believe it is either a part of / power of Self(Atma) or a part of/

power of Paramatma.

 

I would be pleased to be corrected on this. That there is an element

called " conscience/viveka " existing in human being is certain. It is

part of our direct experience.

 

Hence I feel that if the aforesaid para is reworded as under it

would be perfect:

 

Disrespect to Viveka by Jeeva is ignorance resulting in

identification of Consciousness with body-mind object.

 

If you respect Viveka , where is ignorance?

 

I will be happy, Pratapji, to be corrected. Varunji- what do you say?

 

If ignorance can cover viveka, then you need another element to

disperse that ignorance. Wind (air) can't be covered by clouds. It

is Viveka which destroys ignorance. Hence Viveka must exist before

ignorance enters. Respect by Self to Viveka is Wisdom and disrespect

by Self to Viveka is ignorance. All three - Purusha, Paramatma and

Prakrati are existing ab initio along with Viveka - power to

discriminate between the three. Rest all get born and die.

 

Viveka " dies " when Purusha merges with Paramatma. Prakrati " dies "

when it merges with Paramatma. In the beginning and in the end only

one element remains " Paramatma " . The moment second element arises -

Viveka also arises - Viveka the power of discrimination between two

or more elements. It is predominantly and more eloquently present

in human life. In other life forms it is there, but

only " symbolically " . It is not dead till Jeeva loses Jeevahood !!

Even in " Devatas " it is there, in animals it is there but most

prominent in human form of life only.

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

My observations on Varunji's questions. He is right in identifying

Viveka belonging to Chaitanya-Consciousness-Life-God and not to

great elements-insentience!

 

Conscience is how Consciousness-Atman responds when it is necessary

to respond, and such response is right action. We all know moments

when we feel overwhelmingly to take certain actions, or to avoid

certain actions and they turn out to be right! It is Conscience that

tells us.

Thus, it is not a separate element, just a word to indicate our

innermost(gut) feeling based response of God-Consciousness. Viveka

has slightly different connotation. Viveka-discrimination is between

that which we ARE, Consciousness-Beingness-ISness-Sat and what we

believe we are, body-mind individual.

When such Viveka takes place in an apparant individual,

Individuality-me-ego sense is dissolved in the ocean of Consciousness

(Chetna) and Conscience speaks loudest through that person. When

established in our Impersonal Beingness(sat) through this Viveka, it

is God realization only.

Viveka-Conscience is ever existent being higher nature of Paramatma.

Ignorance covers Viveka, Ignorance being identification of

Consciousness with body-mind object.

Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

Re: Conscience & Para (Real) - Apara (Unreal) Nature of God in Gita

The more we discuss the meaning of different words, the more we get

into confusion. Actually what Gita says is so simple that it can be

understood by everyone wishing to think himself. No amount of

discussion and debates with words will ever make people understand

about conscience or Nature of God. Sadhana is about practising to

live in the illusion of differences and diverse identies and at the

same time constantly being aware of the single source from which

everything arises and is contained in.

All thuoghts including the concept of God, all words in Gita or any

other words, all physical bodies, mind, work, life, names ---all

arise from, are contained in, are manifestation of and contains the

SINGLE ORIGINAL SOURCE that we refer to variously as GOD or PARA or

PARAATMAN or NATURE 0r CREATION or CREATOR. The different

forms/identies that we see or recognise are all APARA or the various

reflections of PARA the single original source. PAra is the REAL

source that eludes us while all that we deal with in life are APARA

and the great diversity of APARA keeps us tied to the illusion of

you, I, they, mine, our, your, etc. We are all slaves of APARA

nature that has been created by the mother source nature of PARA.

There is nothing more to know or discuss. Sadhak lives the life in

Apara but tries to remember that Para is the source, cover,

container of all Apara. Moving from different identities (APARA) to

single identity (PARA) is Sadhana.

 

Basudeb Sen

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I AM NO BODY. I DO NOTHING "

 

EGO ! In fact this world is basically sustained by the Jeeva through

EGO !! Ego consists of " me or mine " and " likings and dislikings " (

Raag and Dvesha). With reference to your true nature this EGO in

fact is imaginary or fictitious. Because you are basically, Chetan (

sentient), Amal ( Faultless) , Sahaj Sukhraasi ( Naturally and

effortlessly blissful) , Ishwar ansha ( Part of God and God only-

not at all a part of Nature made of 8 elements referred in BG

7:4/5) , Avinaashi ( Imperishable). When ME and MINE are applied by

Jeeva towards Jagat ( World) , then ME starts appearing to you as

BODY, and mine starts appearing to you as world, worldly people and

things, mind, intellect etc. Simultaneously emerges in you likings

and dislikings and with that DESIRES. That is the end of you- the

pure you and beginning of Jeeva,, beginning of DUKHALAYAM and

beginning of endless calamities. Another name of worldly attachment

is Calamities !!

 

Sanatan Dharma addresses basically this EGO. Gita throughout

requires you to become EGOLESS. A Karma Yogi PURIFIES his ego by not

considering world to be me or mine and by applying whatever he has

got from the world- body, mind, intellect, worldly possessions,

powers, authority, wealth, virtue etc all - everything back to the

service of world, while himself remaining aloof, nishkaam,

expectationless from the results of service. A Jnana Yogi ELIMINATES

the very ego. He simply does not consider anything worldly to ME or

Mine. A Bhakti Yogi CHANGES his ego. He replaces ME part of Ego as

PART OF GOD ( I am of God) , and Mine part of Ego again to be God (

Mere to Girdhar Gopal). Result: Doosaro Na Koi ( Nothing else is

mine).

 

All three Yogis ( there are only three) DO NOT consider " ME " to be

BODY. You are not BODY. Hence Jeeva here replies to Mr Conscience I

AM NO BODY. I am imaginary. I am fictitious. I am no body. I am not

body. " I " does not exist. There is no " I " ! Jeeva !! What is

Jeeva except EGO- likings and dislikings, desires because Me is body

and Mine is world ? What is Jeeva except sense of " I " ? If ego is

eliminated/corrected/changed from worldly to divine- there is no

Jeeva ! Either SELF remains behind or GOD remains. World goes !! In

fact the world never existed except in the mind of JEEVA ! The world

does not exist! VASUDEVA only exists !! Vasudevah Sarvam !!

 

What do you do ? Nothing in fact. Things are happening of their own.

You are just

connecting/disconnecting/associating/disassociating/accepting/rejecti

ng !! You are doing nothing ! Jeeva does nothing. Says Gita

categorically- AHANKAAR VIMUDHATMA KARTAHAMITI MANYATE – Foolish

Jeeva, under influence/ ignorance/darkness of Ego ASSUMES/ ACCEPTS

that " I AM DOER " !! In fact I DO NOTHING !! Mark here the words "

VIMUDHATMA " – under ignorance/disillusioned ! In Upanishads , Ego is

stated to be residing in " IGNORANCE ZONE " ( Agyaanmaya Kosha) !!

Therefore here Jeeva says to Mr Conscience that I DO NOTHING !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

In this great story, so beautifully being explained by Vyasji and

Jee Jee Shashikalaji, for benefit of all sadhaks , based on the

eternal teachings of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj _

 

all three questions asked are fundamental questions.

 

1. WHAT IS THIS ?- is a question pertaning to the world (Jagat) !

 

2 WHO ARE YOU?- is a question pertaning to Self (Jeeva) !

 

3 WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN ? - is a question leading you to Paramatma

(Jagdish) ! It helps in firming up your objective , your goal !!

 

These questions require " discrimination " (Viveka) to answer. In

Animal form of life such questions are not possible to be raised. In

demi-gods , they are unnecessary. But in human life they are vital.

 

Answers to these questions definitely lead you to Liberation.

 

Narain Narain

Rajendra J Bohra

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Sadhak Varunji has asked a real genuine question and in my view THE

BEST QUESTION so far in last 6 months on Holy Gita.

 

He can be replied in many ways. Swamiji equated VIVEKA with God and

categorically stated that VIVEKA gets converted into God

Realisation. Since God is one of 1o elements, Viveka gets covered

there. Conscience is voice of God!

 

I also feel that elements like Equanimity, discrimination ( Viveka),

nishkaam bhav- they are functions too! What is wrong in clubbing

them and seeing them as functions of " stablised intellect " referred

in BG 2 ! Intellect once it " stablises " becomes changeless !

 

Thirdly, the pure soul ( self) has powers to

associate/disassociate/accept/reject/connect/disconnect. Pure soul

has only that power and nothing else- Swamiji categorically stated

that. Now granted that- the power of discrimination(viveka)

automatically becomes power of Self as discrimination is essential

to determine whether to accept or reject etc. Self is part of 10 !

 

Sadhak Varunji should come back if he is not convinced. He must !

Please go deep in this. It is a real genuine query. I will also come

back if I find from Swamiji's discourses/books more on this.

 

Thanks Varunji.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Thus asked : He said I am no body. I do nothing

 

Now you think, you realise. Am I body? I am certainly not the body.

Who feels " bondage " ? Certainly the body is not feeling bondage. Who

will go to heaven or hell ? Certainly the body will not go ! I am

not the name by which I am called. What was I before the name was

given to me ? I am not rich. There are people before whom I feel

poor. I am not poor. ' There are people before whom I feel rich. I

am just, watching, I am just feeling pleasure/pains, I am just

agreeing, I am just witnessing..... but that is not " doing " . However

deep you may think, -the fact will remain that you are " no " " body " .

You are not " body " .

 

You are not " doing " anything. You are simply accepting; or

rejecting or associating/disassociating with an action done / to be

done by the body or with an activity happening in the

world. " Accepting " is not " doing'I (e.g. you accepted some body to

be your father .... What did you " do " ? What was the action at

your end ?).

 

I AM NO BODY: Ego has no base to survive. It never had any basis.

Because You the pure you, got associated with it/supported, it was

surviving. ! Ego controls intellect. Intellect controls mind. Mind

controls sense organs.; Sense organs control physical body .......

all of them are part of world, arise out of world, remain always

in the world and disintegrate in the end in the world only ! What

you carry with you in the next birth is " your " svabhav, association,

attitude towards the world. " Me " & " mine " are fictitious, imaginary

& unreal.

 

I DO NOTHING: Breaths are coming & going. Blood is circulating in

the body. Body is functioning. Food is digesting. Diseases are

coming & going. Eyes are fluttering. Thoughts are coming & ,going.

Body is changing. World is changing. Circumstances, situations,

incidences are happening. Everything is changing. Everything is

moving. Nothing is static.. Even a dead body or a stone changes..

Activity is constantly, unceasingly, happening in the body .... in

the world: Cold & warm seasons are coming & going. Sun rises, sun

sets. Thoughts are coming and going in the mind. What efforts you do

to fall asleep? What am I doing ? What am I doing to cause hunger &

thirst, to take birth, to grow, to deteriorate, to fall sick .. and

to die ? Body is working & changing.. If 'I am working & changing,

then who is observing, who is witnessing the changes ? How can

the " Scene " & the " Seer " be the same?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Sir Vyasji, I remember reading the same in Swamiji's books that

vivek turns into tattvagyaan (realization of truth). I have 3

questions on this statement - 1. Is vivek another element before

realization? 2. After realization doesn't vivek exist? 3. How does

vivek turn into realization?

 

That element is said to be insentient (jad) which doesn't know

itself as well as others. And sentient (chetan) is referred to as

that conscious element which knows itself as well as others. So as

per this principle the first eight elements can be ruled out. Now

that leaves us with the God and its fragment Self (jeeva). Vivek has

to be surrounding these 2 elements. It cannot be a separate entity

because if it becomes then equanimity, sentiment of devotion (bhakti-

baav) etc. will also be different elements which don't seem to be

possible.

 

Also vivek has to be immortal because one who knows the distinction

between mortal and immortal has to be immortal. Jeeva being fragment

of God is Sat-Chit-Anand (Immortal-Consciousness-Bliss). So like

immortality, is this second attribute of consciousness also somewhat

related to vivek?

 

Thanks,

Varun Paprunia

==============================================================

COMBINING DISCUSSION THREAD - Intellect - Its Role? Where It

Resides? Connection with Vivek (Discrimination)?

----------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I believe the extract below from this post, could do with a good

airing. I realise that the simple model of the human body falls

very short of the higher reality, this is something that the

individual can discover for him/herself, by various spiritual

practices. (Woe betide those that play around outside the spirit, in

such things).

 

I have disciplined myself , (sometimes I have fallen outside the

guidelines, for that I apologize to moderator ). But at

the same time regarding, how many thousands readers of these two

sites? The ones who have fallen between the cracks, they are my

beloved fellow imperfect. Maybe the extract below can shine a light

on their confusion.

 

'...The heart area extends ten fingers below the throat and ten

fingers above the navel. In this heart area, the intellect resides

and its place of operating is the brain....'

 

I apologize for my verbosity .

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hare Krishna

 

I would like to paste some text from SSS related to intellect and

realization

 

" Gyaan hone par tattva mein kuch farak nahi padta. Farak us buddhi

mein padhta hain, jisme agyan hai. "

" After realization there is no change in tattva (truth-element).

Change occurs in that intellect which has ignorance in it. " (Page

775, column 2 - para3, line 1-2)

 

Now the question is that what change can occur in that intellect.

Answer is on same page

 

" Sharir-Sansar to upar se waise hi dikhte hain, par unme astitva-

buddhi mit jaati hai.. "

" Body-world seems to be the same from above, but 'It has an

independent existence'- this ignorance from intellect is wiped out. "

(same page, column 1)

 

SSS = Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu

 

Thank you,

Varun Paprunia

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

Mr.Mike is correct about intellect residing. This is very clearly

explained and shown with proof by one saint called Veera Bramam

lived in Andra Pradesh, India. The sant has given details of how it

functions by Chakras in human body. The Sant took to Jeeva Samadhi

in 18th century I presume. His Samadhi is in Caddapah, Andra Pradesh

even to day, like that of Saint Gnaneswar.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

The heart is physically present in the body. Intellect may be

present in the

brain but real vivek or discrimination can be developed only through

spiritual

practices like sadhana, satsang, sewa and meditation.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

-----------------------------

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

There are long explanations In short human being have the mind

having mind intellect which creates thoughts in the mind and then it

goes for its action. There is a conscience means atman which finally

decides what to do ?

 

This is the process of our handling our life. When our coNsciousness

reaches the final stage it comes nearer to God. Then there are

chances for liberation ( a long process )

 

Thanks

 

Truly yours

 

S S Bhatt

-------------------------------

 

Very interesting.

 

Thank you.

 

Warm regards

Captain S.M.Divekar

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Firstly I extend a greatful Thanks to you to include me in your team.

With Respect and Devine love

Shiv Shankar

-----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I fully agree with Sadhak Pratapji Bhatt. His description of

Conscience is very timely. When the " reflected " intelligences ( in

the words of Swamiji- Viveka- as quoted by Brother Mike Keenor under

another Q) which are only Pure Consciousness , are intent on or on

the point of willing or ideation, then , they attain to the state of

individual souls or individualised consciousness- JUST AS WATER

ASSUMES THE STATE OF WAVES !

 

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that there are two ways to

awaken your conscience. Sorrow and Satsanga ! Here in this story the

man is tormented by affliction and sorrow. Serious sadhaks hence

forth should meticulously read each and word of this story. Read

between the lines too! Read rather " feel " ! Put your self

into " equanimous " zone and then read. We are reaching climax. We are

only a couple of steps away from benediction!

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " WHAT IS THIS? WHO ARE YOU? WHY DO YOU RUN IN

VAIN ?

 

And that voice asks you questions ! What is this? Are you supposed

to be in this shape? What have you achieved so far? Only that which

must leave you !! To achieve what must leave you- is no achievement

in reality. A human keeps wasting time and effort in achieving

temporary, perishables and momentaries.... What else? What else we

can achieve by using temporary tools like mind, body, intellect ?

WHO ARE YOU ? Are you what you are reflecting /believing/assuming

yourself to be? Are you the name by which you are called? Are you

the the ego or mind or intellect or the body? If yes, then how you

are witnessing changes in ego, mind, intellect, body ? Can " seer " be

the " seen " ? WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN? How much compromises, sins you

have made to fulfill your desires? Have your desires been fulfilled?

Do you now find yourself into that state where nothing remains to be

done or got or known by you?

 

These are the " discriminatory " questions. Real questions. These are

asked by conscience to Jeeva. What is Jeeva? Ego ! " Jeeva " resides

in " ego " - in " causal body " - in " ignorance zone " !

 

Hence the question - WHO ARE YOU ? - is replied in this great story

by EGO !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I've read Ji Ji Shashikalaji's article deeply also I recall her

dialog between Jiva and Maya, and also appreciate Michael Hagen's

gut feeling concept, I would like to go a little deeper.

I think I told this story before, in the current light I think I

would like to look at it again and add an addendum.

A true story I read when I was a young man:

A reporter for a newspaper, used to work himself very hard, living on

coffee and junk etc., but he had the habit of dropping out for a

complete break for a few weeks. This time he rented a cell(room) in a

monastery of a silent order. He took to meditation/contemplation,

tuning into the ethos of the place. He took to sitting in the back of

the chapel to listen to the monks as they chanted their devotions.

He would then leave prior to the end of the service.

One morning he remained alone after the monks had left and was drawn

before the alter, whereby he collapsed in grief pain horror spiritual

agony self loathing remorse outreaching and so on. And found he was

not alone, a very old monk had returned, comforted him, assured him

this was not unknown to him. Of course this journalist was never the

same again. I never thought it would happen to me!

The heart can release suddenly, as it were, like an explosion of

love, overpowering, one changes there and then.

I think I will leave it there for now.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Conscience when it awakens asks questions. It straight away attacks

the very roots of your existence! " Me and Mine " - Ego !

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " me " . WHO ARE YOU?

Body or soul? Temporary or permanent? Perishable or imperishable?

Sentient or inert? Seer or the seen? Kshetra or Kshetragya? Mortal

or immortal? Ever sorrowful or ever blissful?

 

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " mine " ! What is yours?

The world and the worldly people or Paramatma? Or worldly things or

body? Who is yours? To whom do you belong?

 

SATSANGA- association with virtuous people, Saints and Sages ( like

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) , association with Truth, reading of

Holy Scriptures ( Like Gita, Ramayana, Bible etc) , membership of

selfless forums like this Gita Talk Group etc- provides you the

answers to these questions.

SORROW propels/ raises such questions. SATSANGA answers such

questions.How easy! Hence Swamiji sings glories of adverse

circumstances in human life. Therefore it is sorrow and satsanga-

that help you in getting liberated. It is our foolishness that we

run away from sorrows!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Thanks GT Moderators !

 

VIVEKA - THE POWER OF DISCRIMINATION

 

When Mr Viveka takes over the hold of you, there are lots of

questions. There is a lot soul searching. Your peace gets snatched.

Conscience forces you to listen to him.You have choice still of

disregarding him, but only after hearing him !!

 

Viveka (Conscience) takes you beyond desires/mind ! It

discriminates. Viveka only and not mind that suggest to you

that " desires are insatiable " . Gita also suggests that only. Can

fire extinguish if you keep adding fuel into it?

 

You want to have good spouse, children, parents, lot of money,

robust health, fame - so that you may become happy. This is

suggestion of mind.

 

Viveka confronts you with a counter question. Whether those who have

better spouses, children, more money than you, etc - Are they

happy ?? Happiness is not in presence of worldly things, it resides

in absence of desires for worldly things.

Your mind wants to change the circumstances, situations to suit it,

to suit the desres/goals ! It never takes easy/simple ways. Your

conscience tells You that one can never change the circumstances, a

simple way is to " change yourself " . Pain lies in feeling of

deficiency within. That deficiency gets created when you desire!!

You consider your self to be big, if you have lot of money! Now who

is bigger? You or money ? We make a mockery of ourselves by

desiring. What we have to get, we shall get, irrespective of our

desiring for the same!! Worldly things will not stop coming to you

if you stop desiring- only pains will cease!! How easy ! How simple!!

 

YOUR MIND CHEATS YOU JEE WHEN IT SUGGESTS THAT " To renounce desires

is very difficult " . Ask your mind - " WHY DONT YOU SUGGEST THAT TO

FULFILL DESIRES IS IMPOSSIBLE? " That mind will never suggest to

you ! That only Mr Conscience can tell you.

 

Wake up .... Jee ... O Dear Child of God ... Wake up !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

Dear Aspirants of Peace !

 

Thank you very much for recalling my question. It was so near the

conclusion , yet it became so far. Frankly, I thought that steam has

run out of this group when real concluding time came. I even

considered unsubscribing but something in me stopped (

conscience?) ! Looking forward to the deliberations.

 

Conscience according to me is " gut feeling " , a sixth sense,

something which is present in a human being definitely. Something

which is capable of tormenting a sinner. Something related with

inner peace of a human. I agree with Sadhaks that it should be

respected. However I am eager to know how it leads you to ultimate

truth. How to convert it into what you sadhaks call as liberation or

benediction- freedom from the sorrow for ever !

 

Thanks, once again.

 

Michael Hagen

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Thanks Shashikalaji. Certainly that story depicts the role of VIVEKA

( Conscience) in the best possible manner. That story is the story

of each one of us , having been quoted in YOGA VAASHISHTHA –

unquestionably one of the most respected and profound heritage

Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Viveka – how does it discriminate?

What does it discriminate. How it functions. What is the result of

disrespect to Conscience.? What is the result of respecting to it?

All these factors are covered in this story. I had covered this

story upto " HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE

CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH KIND, AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS

AWAKENED BY ME FOR A WHILE. "

 

A human being is seen constantly by VIVEKA. Viveka remains as a

spectator to your conduct and when you pay respect to it , it takes

over the responsibility of guide, friend and philosopher to you. If

you keep listening to the dictates of Viveka, it can lead you to

Liberation. This story is complete story in itself of a man's

journey into human life – from Bondage to Liberation. Conscience

holds you BY FORCE. It snatches away your logical mind. It snatches

away your very tranquillity, peace. Nothing torments a human more

than his conscience ! Condition is – you must not ignore it

consistently – under sway of desires.

 

Before I continue with the story let me request sadhaks , to refresh

themselves by reading the text and responses again. It was explained

that DESIRES for worldly pleasures, ( Maya) is responsible for a

man's agony and lack of peace. When a person gets utterly helpless,

caught in the web of its own mind, own desires- a voice comes- a

powerful voice from deep inside –

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain?

 

This, Dear Sadhaks , is the voice of VIVEKA asking to JEEVA !

Jeeva !! That Jeeva who now is nothing except EGO !! Jeeva forgets

who actually he is ! He considers himself to be body, to be say

Vyas N B, to be an assumed entity. Conscience tells him, explains

him what actually he is. Conscience asks questions. Conscience lets

him " discriminate " . Conscience holds him BY FORCE ! Read the

questions asked by Viveka to Jeeva ( Ego- Embodied self) ! Admire in

the meantime the depth and simplicity of the questions.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Friends

 

Thanks to Jee Jee for recalling Mike's unconcluded Q. I think it

will make us all wiser. Conscience or viveka as it is called in

native language is experienced/felt by all of us sometime or other.

I agree with Mike Keenor that it must be discovered to be

beyond " intellect " . I think conscience prevents a human being from

abstaining from evil deeds. Still if a man sins, then conscience

even punishes internally a man and distorts his psyche. Conscience

if it is hurt then never allows a person to remain at peace. Hard

core criminals perhaps disrespect the conscience and then only they

can commit evil deeds. Conscience to me is like a police man present

in you. I am happy that there is religion in the world which not

only analyses this extra terrestial faculty in a human being, and

leads what you call soul to utilise it properly and then reap

highest rewards. Wonderful ! It is astonishing to find that there

are Saints of the class of Swami Ramsukhdas who can really throw

light on such an element and can guide humanity at large on proper

utilisation of such element. I also agree to the latest post of Mr

Pratap Bhatt who so eloquently explained the element. Of course Mr

Vyas N B and all other learned sadhaks have thrown light on the

element. It is indeed great to be part of this Gita Talk forum

 

Thank You all

 

Luca B

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

I request GT Moderators to merge an earlier not fully concluded Q on

Story of mind from Yoga Vaashishtha under this question.(It was a Q

by Michael Hagen , I recall).

 

When Mr Conscience takes over the reigns ... There are plenty of

questions. Plenty of soul searching. You start " discriminating " !

You start thinking - Am I body? Who feels the " bondage " ? Certainly

the body is not feeling the bondage! Who will go to heaven or hell?

Certainly body will not go! You start thinking deeply as to who you

actually are. Why you are.

 

In that Michael Hagen question ( Story of mind- In GT group it was

listed under the Q - Biggest astonishment of the world) which due to

our going on vacations could not be concluded , the story takes you

to conscience. It is conscience who holds that man and asks - " What

is this? Who are you? Why do you run in vain? "

 

If GT Moderators can kindly merge that thread under this Question-

it will help the Sadhaks immensely- particularly because writer of

that story was Mr Conscience ! Alternately this posting may be

listed under that Q.

 

Thanks Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

PASTED PORTIONS OF MESSAGE. TO READ ENTIRE STRING PLEASE VISIT :

/message/1764

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Dear Aspirants of Peace

 

On this question , though I dont have much to state as my knowledge

of Gita is very very limited. But recently a friend gave me an

Indian Holy text in which the following short story was there. It

appeared very surprising story to me. I wonder if any one can throw

more light on it.

 

" THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN.

WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED , THAT FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND

EYES, STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF,

CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN MOUTH.

THEN, GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST. THEN, AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING

AND LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH

KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY ME FOR A

WHILE.

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do nothing " . " You

are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " . THUS , SAYING ,

HE WEPT . THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN

THAT HUGE FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT

FOREST IS THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

My question to this forum is to explain the above story. Who held

whom? Who asked questions ? What is the substance ? What is the

moral?

 

Michael Hagen

----------------

In Gita Yudhistir was asked the same question and he replied that

the greatest surprise was that though everyone knows that he has to

die someday, we all behave and go through life as if we are going to

live forever. That was the greatest of surprises in this world.

The moral of Michael Hagen's story is that we are all lost souls

going about the motions of living, without knowing what we are

doing, without knowing the purpose of our existence. We are like the

man who runs and keeps on falling in the well because we do

thoughtless things over and over again. Only a God-realised person

or through meditation can one know the real meaning of life.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

------------------

 

Hari Om

 

You have indeed presented to all of us , the true and real story of

each of us. All sadhaks should feel grateful to you. Sadhaks like

Michael and our Mike Keenor are real and respectable examples of

how a soul gallops towards the TRUTH once a desire or need has arisen

in it to find out the Divine . Soul recognises not any distinctions

of caste, creed, colour, country,. A burning desire is more than

enough to progress in spiritual uplifting.

 

This story in the first reading appears " mindless " though it is

exclusively about the " mind " - a funny story but very serious. For

serious sadhaks such stories set an order, a process of " sadhana " ….

And lead them straight to their goal- freedom from pain /sorrow …

systematically … step by step. For intelligent people such stories

are a challenge , a riddle, a reminder ! It is too brief in size but

too big in effect- like an arrow.

 

This story covers substance of . Soul ( SAT) , Conscience,. Jeeva,

Ego, Mind, Intellect, Destiny, Svabhav ( nature/habit) , Jagat (

World), Worldly Pleasures, Pain of the soul, Desires, MAYA ( Avidya,

agyaan, darkness, illusion, ignorance, stupidity, jugglery, ) ,

Knowledge ( CHIT, gyaan, light ) , Bondage, Liberation, , and

Jagdish ( God, Paramatma, ANANDA,- Divine, natural, absolute not

relative-, BLISS, PEACE ) This story is timeless. When we come

across such ocean deep stories , we cant help feeling proud of our

Religion, Saints and Sages, Heritage, and Holy Scriptures of eternal

Sanatan Dharma.

 

This " gaagar main saagar " ( Ocean in water pot) story first

thoroughly agitates and astonishes even the best of the human egos,

intellects and minds ; then gives them a powerful shock ; then

pacifies /satisfies/floors them fully. And then of course silences

them . In the end it makes YOU meet YOURSELF in SAT CHIT ANANDA

FORM.!

 

This story is the state of JIVA in his present form and is applicable

to all of us. It starts with Bondage and ends with Liberation and the

JIVA claiming the SATCHITANANDA FORM of Paramatma. Nothing explains

more eloquently the role of MAYA than this powerful short story. Who

else can be the writer of this story than CONSCIENCE which is direct

agent of Paramatma living in the human body along with JIVA ? Like

two birds on a tree – referred once by Mike Keenor in one of his

messages !! Who else can hold the soul so powerfully and ask such

direct questions than CONSCIENCE ?

 

It is from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma –

called YOGA VAASHISHTHA - where Sage Vaashishtha teaches Lord

Rama .

 

Balance in next message. In the meantime serious sadhaks should re

read this story – seriously & peacefully, in order to gain out of it.

The best way to read it is to " feel " it so that your mind becomes a

scene and you become the seer and your conscience starts

responding. " To feel " – put yourself into equanimous zone in which

zone your conscience always resides – be like a court judge- no

personal likings / dislikings. Read it as a challenge to your mental

equipment. Believe for once in what ever clues I have given here in

above.

 

1. THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN

 

This world is the forest in which we all, with minds, wander about.

It is a forest because with the cool air and beauty of nature ,

there are thorns also. There are wild animals also and chances of

our getting lost too. Being forest there are no ways visible. We

have to make our own ways. All the beauty and dangers of forest are

present in human life. - of every body- no exceptions.

 

2 WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED, THAT FEARFUL ONE

 

We are not peaceful. We are confused - constantly seeking pleasure

and happiness. We are fearful. We don't know what the next moment

might have in store for us. We may die anytime, anywhere. We are

confused as well as fearful because we are basically split at the

sub conscience level. While body, mind, ego etc " natuarally " remain

estalished in prakrithi (world/nature) only being part of them, but

we don't belong to nature. It is law that fear develops when one

enters the arena to which he doesnot belong or ONLY when when is in

company of " others " .. When we get attracted/connected

with " stranger/other " world, fear and confusion stick with us

permanently, (which fear goes ONLY when we disconnect from world).

Constant changes and uncertainties of the world also make us

confused and fearful.

 

3 WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

We are equipped in this forest with sharp intellect and vision,

imagination of mind. With capacity to work hard, and control other

species, animals, and fellow men ( a thousand hands) and an

exceptional vision ( a thousand eyes) we set about in this world to

seek pleasure and peace. We seek help of mind. We make efforts to

fulfill our desires.We want to be the best, the wealthiest, the most

intelligent, the most knowledgeable, the healthiest, the greatest.

We want to have every worldly comfort which our Dear and our own

mind can conceive! We don't want to lose. We always want to win. We

are proud of our mind and our intellect (vision). Mind gives a

solution to our eternal desire of being peaceful and happy. DESIRE

FOR WORLDLY THINGS. Since we like mind, we have connected with mind,

WE ACCEPT the suggestions of mind. We start seeking worldly

pleasures.

 

4 STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF, CRYING

AND RUNNING ...

 

Once mind desires, the sorrow and pain is a must in all

circumstances. What else we can do in the beginning, middle or end

of worldly desires except beating ourselves, brooding, fretting? The

beatings referred in the story are the blows of fancies,

imaginations and whims. They are indeed caused by one self . We only

hurt ourselves and no body else when we are in fits of anger, greed,

anxieties, ill temper, attachment ... Desires! We keep hurting

ourselves and sufferring mental agonies and turmoils, inner storms,

agitations, turbulences, fears and what not. We cry ..... We try to

run away from adverse circumstances caused exclusively due to your

mind desiring worldly pleasures and things. Running away from

adversity but again desiring favourable circumstances !! Sometimes

the desire is to " get pleasure " , sometime it is to " remove pains " .

Desire continues, subjects change!!

 

5 FELL BLINDLY INTO WELL WITH HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Desires have hidden mouth. They blind the desirer too. At the outset

they look goals, pleasant. Health, wealth, fame, affluence, power,

position, status, flashy cars, spacious home, right, virtue,

authority, respect, .... great feelings. Desires are beautiful.

Pains come into experience in abundance later.

 

BLINDLY .... You get blinded by desires. Pains get hidden.This

process of blocking your vision is in 3 stages. In the first stage,

the truth is as hidden as fire is hidden by smoke. In the second

stage, the reality is as not visible as your face in a mirror with a

layer of dust on it. In the final stage the gets as concealed as a

fetus in the womb !!!

 

FELL/WELL : " fell blindly into a well " here in this story means Jiva

going to hell . Here one life time ends. Desires, (kaam), reaction

of anger emanating out of unfullfilled desires ( krodha) and greed

arising out of fulfilled desires ( lobha) are three gates of hell .

( Refer BG 16:21) . Hence " well " referred here can only be " hell " .

 

Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is

reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell,

 

6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME.

 

He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " -

habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes

back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be

substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of

past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of

destiny.

 

HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING

HIMSELF OFTEN,

 

Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He

still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but

decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove,

to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something,

to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to

get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more

worldly pleasures. But all worldly .

 

He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of

efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the

desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a

decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not

haunt him badly.

 

7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING

 

But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too.

Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in

conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start

coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys

labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been

described as

 

" AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES "

 

8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got

exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is

back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and

same hell again ! Because desires continue.

 

Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of

pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And

continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the

attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the

connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect

because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal

body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only

do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at

the first time !!

 

Any views Shashikalaji ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna.

 

VYAS N B

-----------------------------

Dear Mike,

 

It is an extra-ordinary story of a spiritual seeker and his

observation on himself transparently. I felt as if it is told of me

and my own foolishness! Thanks for sharing it. This is my

interpretation of the story.

 

Story: FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST

 

… is the confused jungle of thoughts in one's perception.

 

Story: MAN WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED

 

… is the ego (or individual) lost in it.

 

Story: FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

… is the infitude of variance in the perceived world perpetually

throwing mutually conflicitng fears and desires on the individual.

 

Story: STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF

 

… means afterall the individual himself is harming himself thanks to

his ignorance.

 

 

Story: CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN

MOUTH

 

… means the lamenting fool drowns oneself beneath the ignorance of

depression in the name of sadhana shutting down one's sensory

operatus fearful of its transparency on one's reality.

 

Story: GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST

 

… the fool entered into silence with no appreciation cannot

withstand its oblivious nature and runs back into the same life full

of chaotic thoughts and actions.

 

Story: AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING AND

LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

… the story of repeated convolutions of delusions, illusions and

halluscinations with the worldly interaction continues till one's

tendencies (Vasana in Sanskrit) continue to haunt oneself.

 

Story: HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS

OF SUCH KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY

ME FOR A WHILE. HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you?

Why do you run in vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do

nothing " . " You are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " .

 

… the inner wisdom keeps its check on one's misconduct in one's

spiritual progress and acts as a catalyst to force one into self-

examination to root-cause one's problem rather than scrutinizing the

environment … realizes that the environment was never the enemy, but

oneself hiding from oneself perpetually … the individual comfounded

not understanding (not withstanding) what is going on wonders, " Who

am I? Am I not my enemy in the first place? Why am I running

frantically? Even if I run for ever, can I escape from myself?

Because of my association with my image, I am corrupt … is it not

time to drop this image? "

 

Story: THUS , SAYING , HE WEPT .

 

… But … how to drop that image – that is where, Mike, I am stuck

personally!

 

THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN THAT HUGE

FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT FOREST IS

THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

… definitely … the confused thoughts and actions still swarm me …

thanks to the image I am unable to let go … that is where, Mike, I

am stuck personally … I suppose the image will drop out one day …

when, I realize that I do not need to hide in the well … when I

realize the wandering itself is WONDERFUL in itself … when I realize

that there need not be push of desire to get out of a well and there

need not be any pull of fear drowning me into its oblivion … when I

realize that the very fear and desire are rooted in the very image I

am holding on to … when I realize that I don't need to frantically

recycle myself between oblivious wandering in the world and drowning

in the well … probably by continuous self-scrutiny in spite of such

frantic wandering around and drwoning within!!

 

Thanks for the WONDERFUL fact to teach me with its WONDERFUL

transparency.

 

THANK YOU. It is really WONDERFUL to receive the knowledge which

alone can eliminate the oblivious darkness haunting me within.

 

THANK YOU.

 

Deep Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Falling prey to " Maya " is the most astonishing wonderment in my view.

 

Some supplementary thoughts to the story explained by Tamma

Bhaiyya :

 

In the forest of worldly life our mind gets confused Jee ! and

there is a fear arising naturally in us because basically we are

permanent/ complete/never changing/ blissful - avinaashi/sahaj

sukhraasi Jee !!! But the world that this mind is attached to is -

temporary /

incomplete/deficient/ever changing/ ever sorrowful !!

 

Because of " svabhaav " (habits/individual attraction to the nature)

and past deeds/karma (association with strangers i.e the world) - we

desire worldly things and pleasure Jee !

 

Our desires are many, but as such only one Jee! ... Whatever we

think through mind .. Must happen Jee! The desires come in the form

of " my likings " ( Raag) and " my dislikings " (Dvesha). However, the

bitter truth is that simply by desiring we cannot get " worldly

pleasures " Jee, we can only get Daddy ! But that Daddy is

beyond " mind " Jee. Worldly pleasures are " natural " to mind, because

mind belongs to the world Jee, so does intellect and ego Jee( notion

of me/mine).

This mind (which I had said before is better if thrown in the

dustbin) seeks world and worldly pleasures only Jee.

 

This mind cheats us Jee in this regard. We like absolute fools

believe that " desiring " is necessary for getting worldly things. We

forget under the illusion caused by me/mine notion ( MAYA) that

while we don't desire sickness or death or adversity, still we get

it Jee. Even highly educated people, possessing a thousand hands and

eyes, say - " You must desire. The world will come to a grinding

hault if you stop desiring Jee. They think that if you don't have

desires, you are dead " Jee!

 

What a belief, Jee !! How wonderful, Jee!! How surprising !! As if

they desired to take birth, to grow, to fall sick, to deteriorate,

to die and as if they really selected their parents, children,

spouses, relatives, circumstances, situations, incidences, states,

happennings, colour, caste, creed, country, time, age !!! WHAT A

MAYA ! WHAT AN ILLUSION !!

 

That the most astonishing wonderment in human life, Jee! Maya !

Ignorance!! Stupidity !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having

complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not

been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers

immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps

cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and

permanent pain.

 

Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment

of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is

cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not

bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind ,

brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is

no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we

get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000

dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire

has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had

receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow

till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind,

and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !!

 

Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more

desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as

well as in sorrow,mind cheats us.

 

But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment

being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our

fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They

continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They

are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every

wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God !

 

When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly

suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by

telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the

time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that

happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is

responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr

Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was

bad " ) !

 

But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No !

They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my

vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me .....

mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ......

Non sense !!

 

What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear

Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ?

Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from "

sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) ,

part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave

and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !!

 

This is Maya , Jee !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

There is nothing greater than Paramatma. Whatever great thing you

have received, Paramatma is greater than even that. If you get

anything greater than Paramatma (surprisingly), then please,

immediately share will all of us, so that we also come to know. But

as such there is not such a thing, or else it would have not escaped

Swamiji's sight. Thank you !

 

Sarvottam

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

SIMPLE PROCESS OF AWAKENING OF CONSCIENCE

 

The world has got a peculiarity. It always cheats, it always commits

treachery. In fact the world does not cheat , rather cheating occurs

in the world. Reason is that we get attracted towards the world to

get pleasures. But in the end- as a law- every pleasure essentially

gets converted into pain- By sheer nature of the pleasure. Whatever

rises, sets. If a certain pleasure has come to you, it has come to

you only to go! At the end of its tenure, the pleasure ends. Hence

when you get pain, sorrow, unhappiness, when you feel helplessness ,

THEN AN ADVICE , A REMINDER " comes into your INTELLECT " -

that " Nothing is mine in the world "

 

This reminder, this thought, this feeling, this experience AWAKENS

YOUR VIVEKA provided you know how to make use of that reminder!!

 

If even after getting pain, sorrow, helplessness- you still desire

to become happy- your conscience will not fully awaken. Because the

very cause of pain is " desire for happiness " . If you attempt to

remove " dukha " (sorrow) by getting " pleasures " - you are

unconsciously increasing, multiplying dukha only. Because the cause

of sorrow is desire for happiness and nothing else.

 

Therefore- WE MUST- when we receive pain/sorrow- relinquish the

desire for happiness ! On the other hand we must strive to find out

the reasons for pain/sorrow.

 

Says Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, categorically_

 

WHEN YOU RELINQUISH THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS AND WHEN YOU SEARCH THE

REASONS FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS YOUR VIVEKA (CONSCIENCE) AWAKENS !

 

Satsanga then greatly helps you. As Mike Keenor said-

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

As Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj said-

 

BINU SATSANGA VIVEKA NA HOI ( You don't acquire power of

discrimination without Satsanga)

 

To be continued- Conscience and Paramatma Realisation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Sadhaks ! When I asked this question I never thought that

deliberations will elevate to such heights. Indeed, as stated by

Sadhika Prepetina this group has a divinity of its own. What

surprises me is that in the same posting Brother Mike talks about

of importance of Satsanga, quotes BG 16:24 and in the same posting

Vyasji also talks about Satsanga being instrumental in awakening of

conscience. How common the truth becomes when it is a real truth !!

Unbelievable ! Jee Jee Shashikalaji " s Bhajan indeed reflects the

crux of what is conscience. Her example of a thief brings out a

common sentiment across all the human beings and precisely explains

what is " conscience " ! Pratapji has given absolutely dot on time

the dictionary meaning. On top of it, extracts from messages of

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What more can be more divine than

that !! Nothing pleased me more when Vyasji quickly reciprocated to

request of Prepetina to conclude fully my questions.

 

May this Forum live for ever.

 

Bandook Singh

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is that Viveka or discrimination is different and is

used in a much wider sense. My understanding is that " Vivek " is a

spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

ORIGINAL POSTING

: Shree Hari :

Ram Ram

 

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

The glory of the human body has been sung to a great extent in the

scriptures. That glory is not of the body with flesh-bones, but of

the discriminative faculty (vivek). Body has been condemned – `Panch

Rachit Ati Adham Sarira' (Manas, Kishkindha 11|2). In reality

humanity is the power of discrimination (vivek) i.e. knowledge of

perishable-imperishable, duty - non-duty, essential - non-essential,

permitted - forbidden. This discriminative faculty is like an

illuminator, by which all worldly and spiritual affairs are properly

carried out. Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek. Such an instrument is

not available in other forms of life. In the human body the

intellect occupies a much larger portion, in which there are more

particles (tantu) of knowledge. The heart area extends ten fingers

below the throat and ten fingers above the navel. In this heart

area, the intellect resides and its place of operating is the brain.

Vivek (discrimination) comes in the intellect (buddhi); it is not an

attribute of the intellect (buddhi). Intellect is the evolutes of

insentient nature. Intellect is like a magnifying glass. Magnifying

glass concentrates the rays of sun. The magnifying glass

concentrates the burning power, while a mirror centers and reflects

the illuminating power. Due to being very attached to enjoying

pleasures and hoarding, man even after hearing spiritual talks he is

unable to walk towards Paramatma.

 

Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt.

 

As a wealthy man, attached to pleasures, generally doesn't come to

Satsang (spiritual discourses), similarly demi-gods also being

attached to pleasures don't turn towards Bhagavaan (God). But if

they do come there is no objection. Kings like Ambrish, Janak etc.

have also been God's devotees. Sinners have also been God's

devotees; because at the root everyone is God's fragment (ansh,

part). So no one is prohibited from walking towards Paramatma (God).

 

In human body (physical body) there is not even an ounce of purity.

It is only a factory for manufacturing stool-urine. Therefore it is

not the human body that is praiseworthy, but its appropriate usage

is praiseworthy.

 

Those that have attained God, they are awakened. Those that are

engaged in spiritual practices are asleep. Those that are not

engaged in Bhagwaan are corpses. Those that are sleeping they can

wake up, but how can a corpse wake up?

 

Earning money is not in our sphere of control, but day and night we

are engaged in this effort. Worshipping (devotion, remembrance,

chanting, meditation, reading etc.) is in our sphere of control but

that is not being done! Working the entire life and thereafter

earning lakh rupees is also not in our sphere of control; but lakh-

three lakh Divine Name (God's name) can be recited daily. That thing

which is going to go with us is not being accumulated, but that

thing which will remain here itself, that alone we are hoarding!

 

Charity is done only with that money which is earned ethically.

Wells made with money earned via unjust means is not of use to

anyone; just like `Modi's well' in Bikaner.

 

From " Gyaan ke Deep Jale " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, pg 150-

151.

 

Ram Ram

 

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Due to system crash, some responses may be missing/misaligned. We have

attempted to recreate. Let us wrap up this discussion, due to length and

feedback from sadhaks. Thank you all for very insightful discussion! We would

like to close this topic for now to address other questions in the pending

queue.

Gita Talk Moderators. Ram Ram

 

-----------------------------

 

Re: Conscience , It's Role, It's Awakening as per Gita

QUESTION: What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

------------------------------

ALSO COMBINING THE DISCUSSION THREAD -Intellect-Its-Role?

Where It Resides? Connection with Vivek (Discrimination)?

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION

 

Jay Shri Krishna

In Gita (7 - 4,5) God has described his 2 kinds of nature: " Earth,

water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and ego- these constitute

My nature divided into eight parts. This is indeed My lower

(apara/insentient) nature; but different from it, O mighty-armed is

My higher (para/sentient)nature- the life-element (Jiva), by which

this universe is sustained. "

 

Except these 10 elements (including God) nothing is left out. So

where does viveka (conscience) come in picture?

Thanks, Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS - JAN 12, 2009

1. Is vivek another element before realization?

2. After realization doesn't vivek exist?

3. How does vivek turn into realization? (QUESTION DETAILS BELOW)

Thanks, Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

Brother Vyas,

Your post headed as below:

" YOU ARE MY ENEMY . HAVING BEEN SEEN BY YOU, I AM LOST " THUS

SAYING HE WEPT. "

Brilliant pure simple brilliance, I would encourage all to read this

article and really look into it, meditate upon it, contemplate

whatever. I have often mentioned dying while still alive, i.e. death

of ego, once ego is detected by Self it knows it is doomed, one

cannot

destroy ego by ego, but by Bhagwan .

 

 

B.G. 12

To these whose mind is set on Me,

Verily, I become ere long,

O Pritha’s son, their Savior from

The sea of mortal samsara. (7)

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-----------------------------

Jai Shri Krishna

 

Sir Vyasji Maharaj,

All my doubts are cleared. You said that vivek dies after realization. Now as I

understand, after realization his conduct would be as mentioned in Gita (3.33).

So there is no need of vivek. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Sir, I request you and all (including moderators) to address me as Varun rather

than Varunji because I am 24 years old, much younger (even your children might

be very elder to me) than all of you.

 

Thanks,

Varun Prapunia

------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

YOU ARE MY ENEMY. HAVING BEEN SEEN BY YOU I AM LOST. THUS SAYING HE

WEPT !

 

Enemy !! Sure ! How can temporary be friend of permanent? How can

Sentient be not enemy of Inert? SAT is totally opposite to ASAT !

Soul and Body have have totally different characteristics, features,

nature ! Absolutely opposite to each other. Light is definitely

enemy of darkness. JUST AS : At the advent of light , the darkness

gets lost SIMILARLY: The moment you see /experience/realise/ firmly

understand that you are separate from your body, the Bondage is

lost. You are different element altogether than this Ego, mind,

intellect, body, world . The moment you " realise " this fact, you are

free ! It was your " IDENTIFICATION WITH BODY " that was creating a

bondage for you. Your association, your agreement with mind was

causing sorrows, bondage for you- the moment you identify your SELF

to be separate from mind/intellect/ego/body/ " INERT " - YOU ARE

LIBERATED. All bondage is in mind only. All pains reside in your

association with Nature only. You are PURUSHA . How can PRAKRATI be

friendly, beneficial to you ? Both are totally different and

opposite elements ! How can pleasure arise when you meet your enemy?

Here SELF was in company of his enemy- hence suffering.

 

Where is the question of associating with an enemy when you know

for sure that he is your enemy? If you have seen poison in your milk

glass , will you drink it? The moment you feel separate/distinct

from your body, the ego is lost. ME and Mine are changed/

eliminated/corrected. Now there is no me or mine with reference to

ASAT, I am not of the world, the world is not mine. I am of the God

and only God is mine.

 

The cry here is of ego. So far PRAKRATI was ruling over the PURUSHA.

Mind was ruling over the SELF. Temporary was ruling over the

Permanent. Because SELF was stupid. SELF was under wrong

association. SELF was associating with ASAT. . SELF was desiring.

SELF was considering temporary to be permanent. A permanent element

was searching happiness in a temporary element. SELF was in the

ignorance zone and was disillusioned/ deluded. Now through the help

of SATSANGA, through the help of CONSCIENCE, through the help of

Viveka , it has been able to discriminate between SAT and ASAT,

between Soul and Body, between PARA and Apara. Where is Bondage now?

Where is now the sorrow ?. What desires can arise in the Son of the

King of all Kings? LIBERATED. JEEVAN MUKTA !! The ego is

extinguished. It is cry before death.

 

Jai Hanuman

 

THEN, LAUGHING

 

It is the laugh of Purusha, the soul, the pure you ! It is ANANDA !

 

Once the ego is extinguished ..... What else remains? Only SAT (

Existence ) , CHIT ( Knowledge/Consciousness) and ANANDA ( Bliss).

You in fact are that only and nothing else ! You are " sahaj sukh

raasi " , you are chetan (sentient) . You are part of God ! You are

happiness itself !!

 

You are Sachchidanand yourself !

 

Because you accepted earlier that " I am body " - you were worried

that it would fall sick/die ! Where is worry now? You are always

permanent, body is always temporary. You are always immortal , body

is always mortal. You are always peaceful, world is always agitated.

You are always constant, world is always changing. You are always

perfect , world is always imperfect. You are always complete, world

is always deficient .

 

Ha ! Ha !! What a Maya ! What a mirage!

 

HE GAVE UP HIS LIMB ALL ROUND

 

Elimination of Ego , eliminates the entire world out of your focus,

out of your consideration. Ego- through " me " and " mineness " , Raag

(likings) and Dvesha (dislikings) viz. THE DESIRES- was connecting

you to the world. Once you are out of Ego's kingdom, the world loses

its power to bind you. Your mind, intellect, body remain but as your

servants and not as your masters.

The world- upon extinguishment of ego- becomes like a burnt rope.

All the properties of burnt rope are visible but it loses its power

to bind you. The bondage " GIVES UP ITS LIMBS ALL ROUND " !!

 

CONCLUSION

 

Says Sage Vashishtha to Lord Rama in Yoga Vashishtha -

 

The mind is reduced to the state of Bondage only by its own net of impressions

of thoughts or imaginations (desires), JUST AS the silk worm in the cocoon

confines itself by bonds with ease.

 

This excellent story of the mind has been narrated to you . Contemplating on

this with your mind itself, be firm and determined in abandoning thoughts viz

DESIRES !

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

It is with great respect to Vyasji, I would clarify the point I

made. It is more of a suggestion that it could be due to usage of

worlds/language. Same words may indicate different meanings. So we

may be saying/meaning same.

What I mean by saying " ignorance covers Viveka " is just as cloud

covers the Sun. We alll know that from Sun's perspective it is never

ever covered. But as powerful as Sun is, even a tiny little cloud

can cover it for a person.

In the same spirit, one can say Atman can be covered by an Avaran

(sanskrit/Hindi) of Avidya-Ignorance from an individual's point of

view. Viveka-Conscience is the voice of Atman only.

Since Atman, Self, Truth, Viveka, Conscience, Paramatman, they all

point to ONE and the same Reality, which IS " Experiential

(Anubhutirupah) " ONLY, not a thing, so it can be said that this

(voice of )Viveka experience temporarily appears as though covered

up for a person which we call ignorance. This is why I say

ignorance covers Viveka!

Even Consciousness-Beingness(Sat-Chit experience) is

covered/ignored/disrespected by identification with limitation of

body-mind etc which we call ignorance. Identification with

limitations( including body-mind) happens due to Maya principle, of

course!

By Self(with Capital S) is meant Truth, Existence Absolute,

Consciousness, God, Reality. (Some refer self as ego, with small

case - s). Now Viveka is God as you say, then what does it

mean " Respect by Self* to Viveka is wisdom, Disrespect by Self to

Viveka is ignorance " , because Self(God) and Viveka are same.

To me Jeeva is itself ignorance, not that Jeeva has ignorance. Also

Ignorance is believing oneself to be Body-mind limited individual.

So Jeeva, Ignorance, and Identification are all one experience of

being limited and thus suffering which we call ignorance.

Identification is not the result of ignorance, rather, it is the

mother-ignorance itself from which other/relative ignorances arise!

This is why I hesitate to say as you suggest " Disrespect to Viveka

by Jeeva is ignorance resulting in identification of Consciousness

with body-mind object. "

Another point, Just as Sat is beginningless, so is Ignorance too!

Ignorance can end while Sat IS Eternal! When such limitations are

seen-understood as false, it is said that Viveka arose in that

person and destroyed the ignorance(identification), is what I

understand.

I see a subtle difference between Conscience and Viveka. Viveka is

Discrimination between Real and appearances, Noumenon and

phenomenon, That which is beyond mind and that which appear to mind,

between " ME " as Krishna says HE is and " me " , a limited sense we

believe to be. SO Viveka is deep understanding of Truth realized

once and for all, whereas Conscience is Truth's intimations

everytime required!

One doesn't need another element to disperse the ignorance when it

covers the Viveka. Viveka is always there but until it is realized

as such by sadhana which is not a new element, ignorance continues

to cover (or disrespect it).

Again, Vyasji I am only sharing what I have understood, not to

convince!

 

*If by Self is meant oneself, individual, ego, Jeeva, ignorance

itself, then how can " he " respect or disrespect Viveka? To respect

Viveka by Self means to say Yes to it or listen and act accordingly.

Not to do that would be equivalent to ignoring it or cover it up.

 

PS: There is only one ignorance, that of not knowing our true

nature. The rest of ignorances of various kinds cannot exist without

our Knowingness, Consciousness which tells us that we know " we don't

know, say, Physics " . Such Knowingness cannot be ever denied by us,

it is our permanent experience(chit aspect of our being sat), that's

why we are experientially sat-chit always ....

Namaskar................Pratap Bhatt

 

-----------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

We all should be grateful to Swami Jyotirmayanandji for his kind

blessings to this Satsanga forum and for an absolutely accurate

answer to many of our queries.

N.B. Vyas

----------------------------

 

Raam !

 

Divine ! Extremely educative deliberations. My Pranaams to Vyasji, Mikeji,

Shashikalaji and Pratapji. Nothing can be more transforming than such Satsanga .

I am proud and privileged to be a member of this Group.

 

Saraswati Sharma

-----------------------------

SADHAKS REORGANIZING VYASJI'S ENTIRE POSTING ON THIS STORY, RAM RAM

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

You have indeed presented to all of us , the true and real story of

each of us. All sadhaks should feel grateful to you. Sadhaks like

Michael and our Mike Keenor are real and respectable examples of

how a soul gallops towards the TRUTH once a desire or need has arisen

in it to find out the Divine . Soul recognises not any distinctions

of caste, creed, colour, country,. A burning desire is more than

enough to progress in spiritual uplifting.

 

This story in the first reading appears " mindless " though it is

exclusively about the " mind " - a funny story but very serious. For

serious sadhaks such stories set an order, a process of " sadhana " ….

And lead them straight to their goal- freedom from pain /sorrow …

systematically … step by step. For intelligent people such stories

are a challenge , a riddle, a reminder ! It is too brief in size but

too big in effect- like an arrow.

 

This story covers substance of . Soul ( SAT) , Conscience,. Jeeva,

Ego, Mind, Intellect, Destiny, Svabhav ( nature/habit) , Jagat (

World), Worldly Pleasures, Pain of the soul, Desires, MAYA ( Avidya,

agyaan, darkness, illusion, ignorance, stupidity, jugglery, ) ,

Knowledge ( CHIT, gyaan, light ) , Bondage, Liberation, , and

Jagdish ( God, Paramatma, ANANDA,- Divine, natural, absolute not

relative-, BLISS, PEACE ) This story is timeless. When we come

across such ocean deep stories , we cant help feeling proud of our

Religion, Saints and Sages, Heritage, and Holy Scriptures of eternal

Sanatan Dharma.

 

This " gaagar main saagar " ( Ocean in water pot) story first

thoroughly agitates and astonishes even the best of the human egos,

intellects and minds ; then gives them a powerful shock ; then

pacifies /satisfies/floors them fully. And then of course silences

them . In the end it makes YOU meet YOURSELF in SAT CHIT ANANDA

FORM.!

 

This story is the state of JIVA in his present form and is applicable

to all of us. It starts with Bondage and ends with Liberation and the

JIVA claiming the SATCHITANANDA FORM of Paramatma. Nothing explains

more eloquently the role of MAYA than this powerful short story. Who

else can be the writer of this story than CONSCIENCE which is direct

agent of Paramatma living in the human body along with JIVA ? Like

two birds on a tree – referred once by Mike Keenor in one of his

messages !! Who else can hold the soul so powerfully and ask such

direct questions than CONSCIENCE ?

 

It is from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma –

called YOGA VAASHISHTHA - where Sage Vaashishtha teaches Lord

Rama .

 

Balance in next message. In the meantime serious sadhaks should re

read this story – seriously & peacefully, in order to gain out of it.

The best way to read it is to " feel " it so that your mind becomes a

scene and you become the seer and your conscience starts

responding. " To feel " – put yourself into equanimous zone in which

zone your conscience always resides – be like a court judge- no

personal likings / dislikings. Read it as a challenge to your mental

equipment. Believe for once in what ever clues I have given here in

above.

 

1. THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN

 

This world is the forest in which we all, with minds, wander about.

It is a forest because with the cool air and beauty of nature ,

there are thorns also. There are wild animals also and chances of

our getting lost too. Being forest there are no ways visible. We

have to make our own ways. All the beauty and dangers of forest are

present in human life. - of every body- no exceptions.

 

2 WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED, THAT FEARFUL ONE

 

We are not peaceful. We are confused - constantly seeking pleasure

and happiness. We are fearful. We don't know what the next moment

might have in store for us. We may die anytime, anywhere. We are

confused as well as fearful because we are basically split at the

sub conscience level. While body, mind, ego etc " natuarally " remain

estalished in prakrithi (world/nature) only being part of them, but

we don't belong to nature. It is law that fear develops when one

enters the arena to which he doesnot belong or ONLY when when is in

company of " others " .. When we get attracted/connected

with " stranger/other " world, fear and confusion stick with us

permanently, (which fear goes ONLY when we disconnect from world).

Constant changes and uncertainties of the world also make us

confused and fearful.

 

3 WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

We are equipped in this forest with sharp intellect and vision,

imagination of mind. With capacity to work hard, and control other

species, animals, and fellow men ( a thousand hands) and an

exceptional vision ( a thousand eyes) we set about in this world to

seek pleasure and peace. We seek help of mind. We make efforts to

fulfill our desires.We want to be the best, the wealthiest, the most

intelligent, the most knowledgeable, the healthiest, the greatest.

We want to have every worldly comfort which our Dear and our own

mind can conceive! We don't want to lose. We always want to win. We

are proud of our mind and our intellect (vision). Mind gives a

solution to our eternal desire of being peaceful and happy. DESIRE

FOR WORLDLY THINGS. Since we like mind, we have connected with mind,

WE ACCEPT the suggestions of mind. We start seeking worldly

pleasures.

 

4 STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF, CRYING

AND RUNNING ...

 

Once mind desires, the sorrow and pain is a must in all

circumstances. What else we can do in the beginning, middle or end

of worldly desires except beating ourselves, brooding, fretting? The

beatings referred in the story are the blows of fancies,

imaginations and whims. They are indeed caused by one self . We only

hurt ourselves and no body else when we are in fits of anger, greed,

anxieties, ill temper, attachment ... Desires! We keep hurting

ourselves and sufferring mental agonies and turmoils, inner storms,

agitations, turbulences, fears and what not. We cry ..... We try to

run away from adverse circumstances caused exclusively due to your

mind desiring worldly pleasures and things. Running away from

adversity but again desiring favourable circumstances !! Sometimes

the desire is to " get pleasure " , sometime it is to " remove pains " .

Desire continues, subjects change!!

 

5 FELL BLINDLY INTO WELL WITH HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Desires have hidden mouth. They blind the desirer too. At the outset

they look goals, pleasant. Health, wealth, fame, affluence, power,

position, status, flashy cars, spacious home, right, virtue,

authority, respect, .... great feelings. Desires are beautiful.

Pains come into experience in abundance later.

 

BLINDLY .... You get blinded by desires. Pains get hidden.This

process of blocking your vision is in 3 stages. In the first stage,

the truth is as hidden as fire is hidden by smoke. In the second

stage, the reality is as not visible as your face in a mirror with a

layer of dust on it. In the final stage the gets as concealed as a

fetus in the womb !!!

 

FELL/WELL : " fell blindly into a well " here in this story means Jiva

going to hell . Here one life time ends. Desires, (kaam), reaction

of anger emanating out of unfullfilled desires ( krodha) and greed

arising out of fulfilled desires ( lobha) are three gates of hell .

( Refer BG 16:21) . Hence " well " referred here can only be " hell " .

 

Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is

reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell,

 

6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME.

 

He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " -

habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes

back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be

substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of

past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of

destiny.

 

HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING

HIMSELF OFTEN,

 

Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He

still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but

decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove,

to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something,

to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to

get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more

worldly pleasures. But all worldly .

 

He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of

efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the

desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a

decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not

haunt him badly.

 

7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING

 

But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too.

Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in

conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start

coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys

labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been

described as

 

" AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES "

 

8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got

exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is

back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and

same hell again ! Because desires continue.

 

Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of

pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And

continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the

attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the

connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect

because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal

body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only

do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at

the first time !!

 

Hari Om

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " WHAT IS THIS? WHO ARE YOU? WHY DO YOU RUN IN

VAIN ?

 

And that voice asks you questions ! What is this? Are you supposed

to be in this shape? What have you achieved so far? Only that which

must leave you !! To achieve what must leave you- is no achievement

in reality. A human keeps wasting time and effort in achieving

temporary, perishables and momentaries.... What else? What else we

can achieve by using temporary tools like mind, body, intellect ?

WHO ARE YOU ? Are you what you are reflecting /believing/assuming

yourself to be? Are you the name by which you are called? Are you

the the ego or mind or intellect or the body? If yes, then how you

are witnessing changes in ego, mind, intellect, body ? Can " seer " be

the " seen " ? WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN? How much compromises, sins you

have made to fulfill your desires? Have your desires been fulfilled?

Do you now find yourself into that state where nothing remains to be

done or got or known by you?

 

These are the " discriminatory " questions. Real questions. These are

asked by conscience to Jeeva. What is Jeeva? Ego ! " Jeeva " resides

in " ego " - in " causal body " - in " ignorance zone " !

 

Hence the question - WHO ARE YOU ? - is replied in this great story

by EGO !

 

 

THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I AM NO BODY. I DO NOTHING "

 

EGO ! In fact this world is basically sustained by the Jeeva through

EGO !! Ego consists of " me or mine " and " likings and dislikings " (

Raag and Dvesha). With reference to your true nature this EGO in

fact is imaginary or fictitious. Because you are basically, Chetan (

sentient), Amal ( Faultless) , Sahaj Sukhraasi ( Naturally and

effortlessly blissful) , Ishwar ansha ( Part of God and God only-

not at all a part of Nature made of 8 elements referred in BG

7:4/5) , Avinaashi ( Imperishable). When ME and MINE are applied by

Jeeva towards Jagat ( World) , then ME starts appearing to you as

BODY, and mine starts appearing to you as world, worldly people and

things, mind, intellect etc. Simultaneously emerges in you likings

and dislikings and with that DESIRES. That is the end of you- the

pure you and beginning of Jeeva,, beginning of DUKHALAYAM and

beginning of endless calamities. Another name of worldly attachment

is Calamities !!

 

Sanatan Dharma addresses basically this EGO. Gita throughout

requires you to become EGOLESS. A Karma Yogi PURIFIES his ego by not

considering world to be me or mine and by applying whatever he has

got from the world- body, mind, intellect, worldly possessions,

powers, authority, wealth, virtue etc all - everything back to the

service of world, while himself remaining aloof, nishkaam,

expectationless from the results of service. A Jnana Yogi ELIMINATES

the very ego. He simply does not consider anything worldly to ME or

Mine. A Bhakti Yogi CHANGES his ego. He replaces ME part of Ego as

PART OF GOD ( I am of God) , and Mine part of Ego again to be God (

Mere to Girdhar Gopal). Result: Doosaro Na Koi ( Nothing else is

mine).

 

All three Yogis ( there are only three) DO NOT consider " ME " to be

BODY. You are not BODY. Hence Jeeva here replies to Mr Conscience I

AM NO BODY. I am imaginary. I am fictitious. I am no body. I am not

body. " I " does not exist. There is no " I " ! Jeeva !! What is

Jeeva except EGO- likings and dislikings, desires because Me is body

and Mine is world ? What is Jeeva except sense of " I " ? If ego is

eliminated/corrected/changed from worldly to divine- there is no

Jeeva ! Either SELF remains behind or GOD remains. World goes !! In

fact the world never existed except in the mind of JEEVA ! The world

does not exist! VASUDEVA only exists !! Vasudevah Sarvam !!

 

What do you do ? Nothing in fact. Things are happening of their own.

You are just

connecting/disconnecting/associating/disassociating/accepting/rejecti

ng !! You are doing nothing ! Jeeva does nothing. Says Gita

categorically- AHANKAAR VIMUDHATMA KARTAHAMITI MANYATE – Foolish

Jeeva, under influence/ ignorance/darkness of Ego ASSUMES/ ACCEPTS

that " I AM DOER " !! In fact I DO NOTHING !! Mark here the words "

VIMUDHATMA " – under ignorance/disillusioned ! In Upanishads , Ego is

stated to be residing in " IGNORANCE ZONE " ( Agyaanmaya Kosha) !!

Therefore here Jeeva says to Mr Conscience that I DO NOTHING !

 

" YOU ARE MY ENEMY . HAVING BEEN SEEN BY YOU, I AM LOST " THUS

SAYING HE WEPT.

 

As Simple as that !! Dear Sadhaks !

 

YOU ARE MY ENEMY: Enemy is always opposite. The very role of VIVEKA

is to discriminate. Para and Apara. Imperishable and Perishable.

Body and Soul. Permanent and Temporary. Khsetra and Khshetragya.

Ever Blissful and Ever Sorrowful. Sentient and Inert. Never changing

and Ever changing. Immortal and Mortal.PRAKRATI AND PURUSHA . – all

these opposite terms are to be distinctly understood. Viveka helps

you in that. Once you are able to understand, experience that you

are a permanent element, thereafter, what kind of pleasure temporary

element can give you? Once you understand that you are part of

God , immortal – what remains to be achieved by you ?

 

HAVING BEEN SEEN BY YOU , I AM LOST : This phrase should make every

Sadhak happy. It is a law that if you are able to see your mistake ,

it is gone. LAW, Dear Sadhaks, LAW ! When you realise that you are

not your EGO, when you realise that you are separate from your body

( experience, firmly believe, establish yourself- not simple

scripture knowledge- REALISATION ) , your ego is lost for ever. You

become egoless. You have achieved freedom. Nothing now needs to be

done by you, nothing needs to be got by you, nothing needs to be

known by you . GONE FOR EVER !

 

THUS SAYING , HE WEPT: This cry is lamentation of Ego upon

extinguishment.

 

Here Ego having been seen by SELF who was supporting Ego by mixing

SELF ( Para) with BODY ( Apara) – under illusion/ ignorance/ maya

and thus becoming Jeeva, has realised/ experienced that He ( SELF)

is separate from the body. The moment you do YOU ARE FREE ! What

then poor EGO do except crying?

 

What can ego do except crying, Dear Sadhaks? SIMPLY DISCRIMINATE.

SIMPLY EXPERIENCE YOUR " SELF " TO BE DISTINCT FROM YOUR BODY. The

game is over then and there !!

 

 

THEN LAUGHING, HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND

 

The laughter here represents the joy of the one, who has acquired

discrimination, who has mentally abandoned his abode in worldly

existence and who is giving up the characteristics of the thinking

mind.

 

When the knot of ignorance in one's heart is broken, there is no

bondage again by the qualities of nature. By whom is a fruit that

has fallen down , fastened again to the stalk even with effort? A

mirage, well understood, does not draw away a thirsty person.

 

When exactly ignorance is completely understood, at that very

moment, it is destroyed thoroughly, as the field of enjoyment in a

dream is destroyed with the dream when it is understood as a dream.

 

You , then, are satisfied quite every where. You rejoice everywhere.

On account of desirelessness of the mind, you possess happiness

everywhere.

 

HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS.....

 

When the delusion of the mind , " I am of the body or I am related

to the body " ; I am the embodied one or I possess the body, is

destroyed, is the understanding , " I give up this body or I do not

give up this body " , born falsely ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

---------------------------

 

Ego = Differentiating one from all others in existence = Doing all

with that one does as one identifies one as different from others =

Apara = Maya = Illusion = Finite = Destiny= No Choice = Slavery to

Diverse Identities = Duty whether desirable or not.

Consciousness= Conscience = Chaitanya = Bayragya = Rising above

individual identities = Realisation of Brahman = Para = Infinite =

Indestructible = imperishable = all pervative, all inclusive

Apara is what I do and think, Para is the source from which Apara

arose and gave me separate identity recognition.

Apara is the concept of I, you, they differentiation that I have to

live with while Para is the loss of differentiation and merging of

all identities into the single source.

Para creates and contains all Apara: Apara distances from Para or

sometimes approaches towards Para but never realizes that.

If Water is Para, ocean, seas, rivers, rains, clouds, ponds,

urine, etc are all parts of Apara.

 

Basudeb Sen

-----------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Basudebji,

Conscience = inner voice, purified intellect

Consciousness = Chaitanya, nature of Self

From Gita Talk Moderators

------------------------

You are spending so much time in this so the best would be you to

decide It is wonderful and repetitions do not matter

Many many thanks for very stimulating articlating thoughts for us to

ponder and act

Dinesh Patel

------------------------------

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhak

I am producing a short reply from Swami Jyotiramayananda who is the

disciple of Swami Sivananda

Shankerprasad Bhatt

***************

Blessed Self, Adorations!

 

Conscience refers to the Inner Voice or inner inspiration. God

guides you through your own Conscience.

 

Good Conscience is same as purified intellect. Intellect is purified

by Sadhana---Integral Yoga; a harmonious blend of Karma, Bhakti,

Dhyana and Jnana.

 

Gita talks about Chitta Shuddhi---purity of heart. This is same as

purity of intellect. See Gita (5/7). In fact Gita, is filled with the

theme of Chitta Shuddhi or purified intellect.

 

It is also possible that they are referring to Consciousness which

is Chaitanya--the very nature of the Self.

 

May God bless you!

With regards Prem and Om,

Yours in the Lord

Swami Jyotirmayananda

------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Is group refering to Consciousness (Chaitanya) - the very nature of

Self? or simply purity of intellect (chitta suddhi)? or other?

Kindly keep explanations short and to the point. It is easy to get

lost in words.

From Gita Talk Moderators

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Sadhak Pratapji has indeed beautifully replied to Varunji.However,

in my humble opinion , the last para may need to be revisited by

him. It reads as under:

 

Ignorance covers Viveka, Ignorance being identification of

Consciousness with body-mind object.

 

In my view ignorance does not cover Viveka. Disrespect to Viveka /

Voice of conscience is ignorance. Viveka / Paramatma are too big to

get covered. Ignorance can't cover Viveka. Disrespect to Viveka and

reliance by Self on ego/mind/intellect is responsible for

calamities/bondage/Jeevahood. Conscience inspite of being God

Himself resides in human body as agent/advisor/consultant only.

Conscience doesnot snatch away " independence " of Jeeva. It is not

supposed to do so. But if you respect to Him ( Just as if you

surrender to God) , He takes over your command and liberates you. It

becomes God then for you.

 

Ignorance may cover Jeeva, intellect, mind etc but not Viveka !

There is no difference between Viveka and God. Ultimately Viveka

converts into Paramatma Realisation. You yourself agree, and Swamiji

categorically stated that as Self and Prakrati both are

beginningless, hence Viveka is also beginningless. It is there since

day 1. It is not inert. I don't even subtly distinguish

between " Conscience " and " Viveka " - for me Shakti (function, power

of discrimination, Viveka ) and Shaktimaan ( one who exercises the

power, Mr Conscience, one who speaks to Jeeva from deep within, one

who watches conduct of Jeeva consistently ) , are one only. I always

believe it is either a part of / power of Self(Atma) or a part of/

power of Paramatma.

 

I would be pleased to be corrected on this. That there is an element

called " conscience/viveka " existing in human being is certain. It is

part of our direct experience.

 

Hence I feel that if the aforesaid para is reworded as under it

would be perfect:

 

Disrespect to Viveka by Jeeva is ignorance resulting in

identification of Consciousness with body-mind object.

 

If you respect Viveka , where is ignorance?

 

I will be happy, Pratapji, to be corrected. Varunji- what do you say?

 

If ignorance can cover viveka, then you need another element to

disperse that ignorance. Wind (air) can't be covered by clouds. It

is Viveka which destroys ignorance. Hence Viveka must exist before

ignorance enters. Respect by Self to Viveka is Wisdom and disrespect

by Self to Viveka is ignorance. All three - Purusha, Paramatma and

Prakrati are existing ab initio along with Viveka - power to

discriminate between the three. Rest all get born and die.

 

Viveka " dies " when Purusha merges with Paramatma. Prakrati " dies "

when it merges with Paramatma. In the beginning and in the end only

one element remains " Paramatma " . The moment second element arises -

Viveka also arises - Viveka the power of discrimination between two

or more elements. It is predominantly and more eloquently present

in human life. In other life forms it is there, but

only " symbolically " . It is not dead till Jeeva loses Jeevahood !!

Even in " Devatas " it is there, in animals it is there but most

prominent in human form of life only.

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

My observations on Varunji's questions. He is right in identifying

Viveka belonging to Chaitanya-Consciousness-Life-God and not to

great elements-insentience!

 

Conscience is how Consciousness-Atman responds when it is necessary

to respond, and such response is right action. We all know moments

when we feel overwhelmingly to take certain actions, or to avoid

certain actions and they turn out to be right! It is Conscience that

tells us.

Thus, it is not a separate element, just a word to indicate our

innermost(gut) feeling based response of God-Consciousness. Viveka

has slightly different connotation. Viveka-discrimination is between

that which we ARE, Consciousness-Beingness-ISness-Sat and what we

believe we are, body-mind individual.

When such Viveka takes place in an apparant individual,

Individuality-me-ego sense is dissolved in the ocean of Consciousness

(Chetna) and Conscience speaks loudest through that person. When

established in our Impersonal Beingness(sat) through this Viveka, it

is God realization only.

Viveka-Conscience is ever existent being higher nature of Paramatma.

Ignorance covers Viveka, Ignorance being identification of

Consciousness with body-mind object.

Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

Re: Conscience & Para (Real) - Apara (Unreal) Nature of God in Gita

The more we discuss the meaning of different words, the more we get

into confusion. Actually what Gita says is so simple that it can be

understood by everyone wishing to think himself. No amount of

discussion and debates with words will ever make people understand

about conscience or Nature of God. Sadhana is about practising to

live in the illusion of differences and diverse identies and at the

same time constantly being aware of the single source from which

everything arises and is contained in.

All thuoghts including the concept of God, all words in Gita or any

other words, all physical bodies, mind, work, life, names ---all

arise from, are contained in, are manifestation of and contains the

SINGLE ORIGINAL SOURCE that we refer to variously as GOD or PARA or

PARAATMAN or NATURE 0r CREATION or CREATOR. The different

forms/identies that we see or recognise are all APARA or the various

reflections of PARA the single original source. PAra is the REAL

source that eludes us while all that we deal with in life are APARA

and the great diversity of APARA keeps us tied to the illusion of

you, I, they, mine, our, your, etc. We are all slaves of APARA

nature that has been created by the mother source nature of PARA.

There is nothing more to know or discuss. Sadhak lives the life in

Apara but tries to remember that Para is the source, cover,

container of all Apara. Moving from different identities (APARA) to

single identity (PARA) is Sadhana.

 

Basudeb Sen

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

In this great story, so beautifully being explained by Vyasji and

Jee Jee Shashikalaji, for benefit of all sadhaks , based on the

eternal teachings of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj _

 

all three questions asked are fundamental questions.

 

1. WHAT IS THIS ?- is a question pertaning to the world (Jagat) !

 

2 WHO ARE YOU?- is a question pertaning to Self (Jeeva) !

 

3 WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN ? - is a question leading you to Paramatma

(Jagdish) ! It helps in firming up your objective , your goal !!

 

These questions require " discrimination " (Viveka) to answer. In

Animal form of life such questions are not possible to be raised. In

demi-gods , they are unnecessary. But in human life they are vital.

 

Answers to these questions definitely lead you to Liberation.

 

Narain Narain

Rajendra J Bohra

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Sadhak Varunji has asked a real genuine question and in my view THE

BEST QUESTION so far in last 6 months on Holy Gita.

 

He can be replied in many ways. Swamiji equated VIVEKA with God and

categorically stated that VIVEKA gets converted into God

Realisation. Since God is one of 1o elements, Viveka gets covered

there. Conscience is voice of God!

 

I also feel that elements like Equanimity, discrimination ( Viveka),

nishkaam bhav- they are functions too! What is wrong in clubbing

them and seeing them as functions of " stablised intellect " referred

in BG 2 ! Intellect once it " stablises " becomes changeless !

 

Thirdly, the pure soul ( self) has powers to

associate/disassociate/accept/reject/connect/disconnect. Pure soul

has only that power and nothing else- Swamiji categorically stated

that. Now granted that- the power of discrimination(viveka)

automatically becomes power of Self as discrimination is essential

to determine whether to accept or reject etc. Self is part of 10 !

 

Sadhak Varunji should come back if he is not convinced. He must !

Please go deep in this. It is a real genuine query. I will also come

back if I find from Swamiji's discourses/books more on this.

 

Thanks Varunji.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Thus asked : He said I am no body. I do nothing

 

Now you think, you realise. Am I body? I am certainly not the body.

Who feels " bondage " ? Certainly the body is not feeling bondage. Who

will go to heaven or hell ? Certainly the body will not go ! I am

not the name by which I am called. What was I before the name was

given to me ? I am not rich. There are people before whom I feel

poor. I am not poor. ' There are people before whom I feel rich. I

am just, watching, I am just feeling pleasure/pains, I am just

agreeing, I am just witnessing..... but that is not " doing " . However

deep you may think, -the fact will remain that you are " no " " body " .

You are not " body " .

 

You are not " doing " anything. You are simply accepting; or

rejecting or associating/disassociating with an action done / to be

done by the body or with an activity happening in the

world. " Accepting " is not " doing'I (e.g. you accepted some body to

be your father .... What did you " do " ? What was the action at

your end ?).

 

I AM NO BODY: Ego has no base to survive. It never had any basis.

Because You the pure you, got associated with it/supported, it was

surviving. ! Ego controls intellect. Intellect controls mind. Mind

controls sense organs.; Sense organs control physical body .......

all of them are part of world, arise out of world, remain always

in the world and disintegrate in the end in the world only ! What

you carry with you in the next birth is " your " svabhav, association,

attitude towards the world. " Me " & " mine " are fictitious, imaginary

& unreal.

 

I DO NOTHING: Breaths are coming & going. Blood is circulating in

the body. Body is functioning. Food is digesting. Diseases are

coming & going. Eyes are fluttering. Thoughts are coming & ,going.

Body is changing. World is changing. Circumstances, situations,

incidences are happening. Everything is changing. Everything is

moving. Nothing is static.. Even a dead body or a stone changes..

Activity is constantly, unceasingly, happening in the body .... in

the world: Cold & warm seasons are coming & going. Sun rises, sun

sets. Thoughts are coming and going in the mind. What efforts you do

to fall asleep? What am I doing ? What am I doing to cause hunger &

thirst, to take birth, to grow, to deteriorate, to fall sick .. and

to die ? Body is working & changing.. If 'I am working & changing,

then who is observing, who is witnessing the changes ? How can

the " Scene " & the " Seer " be the same?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Sir Vyasji, I remember reading the same in Swamiji's books that

vivek turns into tattvagyaan (realization of truth). I have 3

questions on this statement - 1. Is vivek another element before

realization? 2. After realization doesn't vivek exist? 3. How does

vivek turn into realization?

 

That element is said to be insentient (jad) which doesn't know

itself as well as others. And sentient (chetan) is referred to as

that conscious element which knows itself as well as others. So as

per this principle the first eight elements can be ruled out. Now

that leaves us with the God and its fragment Self (jeeva). Vivek has

to be surrounding these 2 elements. It cannot be a separate entity

because if it becomes then equanimity, sentiment of devotion (bhakti-

baav) etc. will also be different elements which don't seem to be

possible.

 

Also vivek has to be immortal because one who knows the distinction

between mortal and immortal has to be immortal. Jeeva being fragment

of God is Sat-Chit-Anand (Immortal-Consciousness-Bliss). So like

immortality, is this second attribute of consciousness also somewhat

related to vivek?

 

Thanks,

Varun Paprunia

==============================================================

COMBINING DISCUSSION THREAD - Intellect - Its Role? Where It

Resides? Connection with Vivek (Discrimination)?

----------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I believe the extract below from this post, could do with a good

airing. I realise that the simple model of the human body falls

very short of the higher reality, this is something that the

individual can discover for him/herself, by various spiritual

practices. (Woe betide those that play around outside the spirit, in

such things).

 

I have disciplined myself , (sometimes I have fallen outside the

guidelines, for that I apologize to moderator ). But at

the same time regarding, how many thousands readers of these two

sites? The ones who have fallen between the cracks, they are my

beloved fellow imperfect. Maybe the extract below can shine a light

on their confusion.

 

'...The heart area extends ten fingers below the throat and ten

fingers above the navel. In this heart area, the intellect resides

and its place of operating is the brain....'

 

I apologize for my verbosity .

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hare Krishna

 

I would like to paste some text from SSS related to intellect and

realization

 

" Gyaan hone par tattva mein kuch farak nahi padta. Farak us buddhi

mein padhta hain, jisme agyan hai. "

" After realization there is no change in tattva (truth-element).

Change occurs in that intellect which has ignorance in it. " (Page

775, column 2 - para3, line 1-2)

 

Now the question is that what change can occur in that intellect.

Answer is on same page

 

" Sharir-Sansar to upar se waise hi dikhte hain, par unme astitva-

buddhi mit jaati hai.. "

" Body-world seems to be the same from above, but 'It has an

independent existence'- this ignorance from intellect is wiped out. "

(same page, column 1)

 

SSS = Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu

 

Thank you,

Varun Paprunia

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

Mr.Mike is correct about intellect residing. This is very clearly

explained and shown with proof by one saint called Veera Bramam

lived in Andra Pradesh, India. The sant has given details of how it

functions by Chakras in human body. The Sant took to Jeeva Samadhi

in 18th century I presume. His Samadhi is in Caddapah, Andra Pradesh

even to day, like that of Saint Gnaneswar.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

The heart is physically present in the body. Intellect may be

present in the

brain but real vivek or discrimination can be developed only through

spiritual

practices like sadhana, satsang, sewa and meditation.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

-----------------------------

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

There are long explanations In short human being have the mind

having mind intellect which creates thoughts in the mind and then it

goes for its action. There is a conscience means atman which finally

decides what to do ?

 

This is the process of our handling our life. When our coNsciousness

reaches the final stage it comes nearer to God. Then there are

chances for liberation ( a long process )

 

Thanks

 

Truly yours

 

S S Bhatt

-------------------------------

 

Very interesting.

 

Thank you.

 

Warm regards

Captain S.M.Divekar

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Firstly I extend a greatful Thanks to you to include me in your team.

With Respect and Devine love

Shiv Shankar

-----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I fully agree with Sadhak Pratapji Bhatt. His description of

Conscience is very timely. When the " reflected " intelligences ( in

the words of Swamiji- Viveka- as quoted by Brother Mike Keenor under

another Q) which are only Pure Consciousness , are intent on or on

the point of willing or ideation, then , they attain to the state of

individual souls or individualised consciousness- JUST AS WATER

ASSUMES THE STATE OF WAVES !

 

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that there are two ways to

awaken your conscience. Sorrow and Satsanga ! Here in this story the

man is tormented by affliction and sorrow. Serious sadhaks hence

forth should meticulously read each and word of this story. Read

between the lines too! Read rather " feel " ! Put your self

into " equanimous " zone and then read. We are reaching climax. We are

only a couple of steps away from benediction!

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " WHAT IS THIS? WHO ARE YOU? WHY DO YOU RUN IN

VAIN ?

 

And that voice asks you questions ! What is this? Are you supposed

to be in this shape? What have you achieved so far? Only that which

must leave you !! To achieve what must leave you- is no achievement

in reality. A human keeps wasting time and effort in achieving

temporary, perishables and momentaries.... What else? What else we

can achieve by using temporary tools like mind, body, intellect ?

WHO ARE YOU ? Are you what you are reflecting /believing/assuming

yourself to be? Are you the name by which you are called? Are you

the the ego or mind or intellect or the body? If yes, then how you

are witnessing changes in ego, mind, intellect, body ? Can " seer " be

the " seen " ? WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN? How much compromises, sins you

have made to fulfill your desires? Have your desires been fulfilled?

Do you now find yourself into that state where nothing remains to be

done or got or known by you?

 

These are the " discriminatory " questions. Real questions. These are

asked by conscience to Jeeva. What is Jeeva? Ego ! " Jeeva " resides

in " ego " - in " causal body " - in " ignorance zone " !

 

Hence the question - WHO ARE YOU ? - is replied in this great story

by EGO !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I've read Ji Ji Shashikalaji's article deeply also I recall her

dialog between Jiva and Maya, and also appreciate Michael Hagen's

gut feeling concept, I would like to go a little deeper.

I think I told this story before, in the current light I think I

would like to look at it again and add an addendum.

A true story I read when I was a young man:

A reporter for a newspaper, used to work himself very hard, living on

coffee and junk etc., but he had the habit of dropping out for a

complete break for a few weeks. This time he rented a cell(room) in a

monastery of a silent order. He took to meditation/contemplation,

tuning into the ethos of the place. He took to sitting in the back of

the chapel to listen to the monks as they chanted their devotions.

He would then leave prior to the end of the service.

One morning he remained alone after the monks had left and was drawn

before the alter, whereby he collapsed in grief pain horror spiritual

agony self loathing remorse outreaching and so on. And found he was

not alone, a very old monk had returned, comforted him, assured him

this was not unknown to him. Of course this journalist was never the

same again. I never thought it would happen to me!

The heart can release suddenly, as it were, like an explosion of

love, overpowering, one changes there and then.

I think I will leave it there for now.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Conscience when it awakens asks questions. It straight away attacks

the very roots of your existence! " Me and Mine " - Ego !

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " me " . WHO ARE YOU?

Body or soul? Temporary or permanent? Perishable or imperishable?

Sentient or inert? Seer or the seen? Kshetra or Kshetragya? Mortal

or immortal? Ever sorrowful or ever blissful?

 

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " mine " ! What is yours?

The world and the worldly people or Paramatma? Or worldly things or

body? Who is yours? To whom do you belong?

 

SATSANGA- association with virtuous people, Saints and Sages ( like

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) , association with Truth, reading of

Holy Scriptures ( Like Gita, Ramayana, Bible etc) , membership of

selfless forums like this Gita Talk Group etc- provides you the

answers to these questions.

SORROW propels/ raises such questions. SATSANGA answers such

questions.How easy! Hence Swamiji sings glories of adverse

circumstances in human life. Therefore it is sorrow and satsanga-

that help you in getting liberated. It is our foolishness that we

run away from sorrows!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Thanks GT Moderators !

 

VIVEKA - THE POWER OF DISCRIMINATION

 

When Mr Viveka takes over the hold of you, there are lots of

questions. There is a lot soul searching. Your peace gets snatched.

Conscience forces you to listen to him.You have choice still of

disregarding him, but only after hearing him !!

 

Viveka (Conscience) takes you beyond desires/mind ! It

discriminates. Viveka only and not mind that suggest to you

that " desires are insatiable " . Gita also suggests that only. Can

fire extinguish if you keep adding fuel into it?

 

You want to have good spouse, children, parents, lot of money,

robust health, fame - so that you may become happy. This is

suggestion of mind.

 

Viveka confronts you with a counter question. Whether those who have

better spouses, children, more money than you, etc - Are they

happy ?? Happiness is not in presence of worldly things, it resides

in absence of desires for worldly things.

Your mind wants to change the circumstances, situations to suit it,

to suit the desres/goals ! It never takes easy/simple ways. Your

conscience tells You that one can never change the circumstances, a

simple way is to " change yourself " . Pain lies in feeling of

deficiency within. That deficiency gets created when you desire!!

You consider your self to be big, if you have lot of money! Now who

is bigger? You or money ? We make a mockery of ourselves by

desiring. What we have to get, we shall get, irrespective of our

desiring for the same!! Worldly things will not stop coming to you

if you stop desiring- only pains will cease!! How easy ! How simple!!

 

YOUR MIND CHEATS YOU JEE WHEN IT SUGGESTS THAT " To renounce desires

is very difficult " . Ask your mind - " WHY DONT YOU SUGGEST THAT TO

FULFILL DESIRES IS IMPOSSIBLE? " That mind will never suggest to

you ! That only Mr Conscience can tell you.

 

Wake up .... Jee ... O Dear Child of God ... Wake up !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

Dear Aspirants of Peace !

 

Thank you very much for recalling my question. It was so near the

conclusion , yet it became so far. Frankly, I thought that steam has

run out of this group when real concluding time came. I even

considered unsubscribing but something in me stopped (

conscience?) ! Looking forward to the deliberations.

 

Conscience according to me is " gut feeling " , a sixth sense,

something which is present in a human being definitely. Something

which is capable of tormenting a sinner. Something related with

inner peace of a human. I agree with Sadhaks that it should be

respected. However I am eager to know how it leads you to ultimate

truth. How to convert it into what you sadhaks call as liberation or

benediction- freedom from the sorrow for ever !

 

Thanks, once again.

 

Michael Hagen

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Thanks Shashikalaji. Certainly that story depicts the role of VIVEKA

( Conscience) in the best possible manner. That story is the story

of each one of us , having been quoted in YOGA VAASHISHTHA –

unquestionably one of the most respected and profound heritage

Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Viveka – how does it discriminate?

What does it discriminate. How it functions. What is the result of

disrespect to Conscience.? What is the result of respecting to it?

All these factors are covered in this story. I had covered this

story upto " HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE

CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH KIND, AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS

AWAKENED BY ME FOR A WHILE. "

 

A human being is seen constantly by VIVEKA. Viveka remains as a

spectator to your conduct and when you pay respect to it , it takes

over the responsibility of guide, friend and philosopher to you. If

you keep listening to the dictates of Viveka, it can lead you to

Liberation. This story is complete story in itself of a man's

journey into human life – from Bondage to Liberation. Conscience

holds you BY FORCE. It snatches away your logical mind. It snatches

away your very tranquillity, peace. Nothing torments a human more

than his conscience ! Condition is – you must not ignore it

consistently – under sway of desires.

 

Before I continue with the story let me request sadhaks , to refresh

themselves by reading the text and responses again. It was explained

that DESIRES for worldly pleasures, ( Maya) is responsible for a

man's agony and lack of peace. When a person gets utterly helpless,

caught in the web of its own mind, own desires- a voice comes- a

powerful voice from deep inside –

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain?

 

This, Dear Sadhaks , is the voice of VIVEKA asking to JEEVA !

Jeeva !! That Jeeva who now is nothing except EGO !! Jeeva forgets

who actually he is ! He considers himself to be body, to be say

Vyas N B, to be an assumed entity. Conscience tells him, explains

him what actually he is. Conscience asks questions. Conscience lets

him " discriminate " . Conscience holds him BY FORCE ! Read the

questions asked by Viveka to Jeeva ( Ego- Embodied self) ! Admire in

the meantime the depth and simplicity of the questions.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Friends

 

Thanks to Jee Jee for recalling Mike's unconcluded Q. I think it

will make us all wiser. Conscience or viveka as it is called in

native language is experienced/felt by all of us sometime or other.

I agree with Mike Keenor that it must be discovered to be

beyond " intellect " . I think conscience prevents a human being from

abstaining from evil deeds. Still if a man sins, then conscience

even punishes internally a man and distorts his psyche. Conscience

if it is hurt then never allows a person to remain at peace. Hard

core criminals perhaps disrespect the conscience and then only they

can commit evil deeds. Conscience to me is like a police man present

in you. I am happy that there is religion in the world which not

only analyses this extra terrestial faculty in a human being, and

leads what you call soul to utilise it properly and then reap

highest rewards. Wonderful ! It is astonishing to find that there

are Saints of the class of Swami Ramsukhdas who can really throw

light on such an element and can guide humanity at large on proper

utilisation of such element. I also agree to the latest post of Mr

Pratap Bhatt who so eloquently explained the element. Of course Mr

Vyas N B and all other learned sadhaks have thrown light on the

element. It is indeed great to be part of this Gita Talk forum

 

Thank You all

 

Luca B

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

I request GT Moderators to merge an earlier not fully concluded Q on

Story of mind from Yoga Vaashishtha under this question.(It was a Q

by Michael Hagen , I recall).

 

When Mr Conscience takes over the reigns ... There are plenty of

questions. Plenty of soul searching. You start " discriminating " !

You start thinking - Am I body? Who feels the " bondage " ? Certainly

the body is not feeling the bondage! Who will go to heaven or hell?

Certainly body will not go! You start thinking deeply as to who you

actually are. Why you are.

 

In that Michael Hagen question ( Story of mind- In GT group it was

listed under the Q - Biggest astonishment of the world) which due to

our going on vacations could not be concluded , the story takes you

to conscience. It is conscience who holds that man and asks - " What

is this? Who are you? Why do you run in vain? "

 

If GT Moderators can kindly merge that thread under this Question-

it will help the Sadhaks immensely- particularly because writer of

that story was Mr Conscience ! Alternately this posting may be

listed under that Q.

 

Thanks Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

PASTED PORTIONS OF MESSAGE. TO READ ENTIRE STRING PLEASE VISIT :

/message/1764

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Dear Aspirants of Peace

 

On this question , though I dont have much to state as my knowledge

of Gita is very very limited. But recently a friend gave me an

Indian Holy text in which the following short story was there. It

appeared very surprising story to me. I wonder if any one can throw

more light on it.

 

" THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN.

WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED , THAT FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND

EYES, STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF,

CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN MOUTH.

THEN, GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST. THEN, AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING

AND LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH

KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY ME FOR A

WHILE.

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do nothing " . " You

are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " . THUS , SAYING ,

HE WEPT . THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN

THAT HUGE FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT

FOREST IS THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

My question to this forum is to explain the above story. Who held

whom? Who asked questions ? What is the substance ? What is the

moral?

 

Michael Hagen

----------------

In Gita Yudhistir was asked the same question and he replied that

the greatest surprise was that though everyone knows that he has to

die someday, we all behave and go through life as if we are going to

live forever. That was the greatest of surprises in this world.

The moral of Michael Hagen's story is that we are all lost souls

going about the motions of living, without knowing what we are

doing, without knowing the purpose of our existence. We are like the

man who runs and keeps on falling in the well because we do

thoughtless things over and over again. Only a God-realised person

or through meditation can one know the real meaning of life.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

------------------

 

-----------------------------

Dear Mike,

 

It is an extra-ordinary story of a spiritual seeker and his

observation on himself transparently. I felt as if it is told of me

and my own foolishness! Thanks for sharing it. This is my

interpretation of the story.

 

Story: FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST

 

… is the confused jungle of thoughts in one's perception.

 

Story: MAN WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED

 

… is the ego (or individual) lost in it.

 

Story: FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

… is the infitude of variance in the perceived world perpetually

throwing mutually conflicitng fears and desires on the individual.

 

Story: STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF

 

… means afterall the individual himself is harming himself thanks to

his ignorance.

 

 

Story: CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN

MOUTH

 

… means the lamenting fool drowns oneself beneath the ignorance of

depression in the name of sadhana shutting down one's sensory

operatus fearful of its transparency on one's reality.

 

Story: GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST

 

… the fool entered into silence with no appreciation cannot

withstand its oblivious nature and runs back into the same life full

of chaotic thoughts and actions.

 

Story: AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING AND

LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

… the story of repeated convolutions of delusions, illusions and

halluscinations with the worldly interaction continues till one's

tendencies (Vasana in Sanskrit) continue to haunt oneself.

 

Story: HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS

OF SUCH KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY

ME FOR A WHILE. HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you?

Why do you run in vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do

nothing " . " You are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " .

 

… the inner wisdom keeps its check on one's misconduct in one's

spiritual progress and acts as a catalyst to force one into self-

examination to root-cause one's problem rather than scrutinizing the

environment … realizes that the environment was never the enemy, but

oneself hiding from oneself perpetually … the individual comfounded

not understanding (not withstanding) what is going on wonders, " Who

am I? Am I not my enemy in the first place? Why am I running

frantically? Even if I run for ever, can I escape from myself?

Because of my association with my image, I am corrupt … is it not

time to drop this image? "

 

Story: THUS , SAYING , HE WEPT .

 

… But … how to drop that image – that is where, Mike, I am stuck

personally!

 

THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN THAT HUGE

FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT FOREST IS

THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

… definitely … the confused thoughts and actions still swarm me …

thanks to the image I am unable to let go … that is where, Mike, I

am stuck personally … I suppose the image will drop out one day …

when, I realize that I do not need to hide in the well … when I

realize the wandering itself is WONDERFUL in itself … when I realize

that there need not be push of desire to get out of a well and there

need not be any pull of fear drowning me into its oblivion … when I

realize that the very fear and desire are rooted in the very image I

am holding on to … when I realize that I don't need to frantically

recycle myself between oblivious wandering in the world and drowning

in the well … probably by continuous self-scrutiny in spite of such

frantic wandering around and drwoning within!!

 

Thanks for the WONDERFUL fact to teach me with its WONDERFUL

transparency.

 

THANK YOU. It is really WONDERFUL to receive the knowledge which

alone can eliminate the oblivious darkness haunting me within.

 

THANK YOU.

 

Deep Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Falling prey to " Maya " is the most astonishing wonderment in my view.

 

Some supplementary thoughts to the story explained by Tamma

Bhaiyya :

 

In the forest of worldly life our mind gets confused Jee ! and

there is a fear arising naturally in us because basically we are

permanent/ complete/never changing/ blissful - avinaashi/sahaj

sukhraasi Jee !!! But the world that this mind is attached to is -

temporary /

incomplete/deficient/ever changing/ ever sorrowful !!

 

Because of " svabhaav " (habits/individual attraction to the nature)

and past deeds/karma (association with strangers i.e the world) - we

desire worldly things and pleasure Jee !

 

Our desires are many, but as such only one Jee! ... Whatever we

think through mind .. Must happen Jee! The desires come in the form

of " my likings " ( Raag) and " my dislikings " (Dvesha). However, the

bitter truth is that simply by desiring we cannot get " worldly

pleasures " Jee, we can only get Daddy ! But that Daddy is

beyond " mind " Jee. Worldly pleasures are " natural " to mind, because

mind belongs to the world Jee, so does intellect and ego Jee( notion

of me/mine).

This mind (which I had said before is better if thrown in the

dustbin) seeks world and worldly pleasures only Jee.

 

This mind cheats us Jee in this regard. We like absolute fools

believe that " desiring " is necessary for getting worldly things. We

forget under the illusion caused by me/mine notion ( MAYA) that

while we don't desire sickness or death or adversity, still we get

it Jee. Even highly educated people, possessing a thousand hands and

eyes, say - " You must desire. The world will come to a grinding

hault if you stop desiring Jee. They think that if you don't have

desires, you are dead " Jee!

 

What a belief, Jee !! How wonderful, Jee!! How surprising !! As if

they desired to take birth, to grow, to fall sick, to deteriorate,

to die and as if they really selected their parents, children,

spouses, relatives, circumstances, situations, incidences, states,

happennings, colour, caste, creed, country, time, age !!! WHAT A

MAYA ! WHAT AN ILLUSION !!

 

That the most astonishing wonderment in human life, Jee! Maya !

Ignorance!! Stupidity !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having

complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not

been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers

immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps

cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and

permanent pain.

 

Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment

of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is

cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not

bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind ,

brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is

no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we

get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000

dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire

has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had

receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow

till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind,

and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !!

 

Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more

desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as

well as in sorrow,mind cheats us.

 

But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment

being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our

fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They

continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They

are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every

wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God !

 

When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly

suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by

telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the

time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that

happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is

responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr

Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was

bad " ) !

 

But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No !

They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my

vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me .....

mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ......

Non sense !!

 

What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear

Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ?

Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from "

sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) ,

part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave

and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !!

 

This is Maya , Jee !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

There is nothing greater than Paramatma. Whatever great thing you

have received, Paramatma is greater than even that. If you get

anything greater than Paramatma (surprisingly), then please,

immediately share will all of us, so that we also come to know. But

as such there is not such a thing, or else it would have not escaped

Swamiji's sight. Thank you !

 

Sarvottam

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

SIMPLE PROCESS OF AWAKENING OF CONSCIENCE

 

The world has got a peculiarity. It always cheats, it always commits

treachery. In fact the world does not cheat , rather cheating occurs

in the world. Reason is that we get attracted towards the world to

get pleasures. But in the end- as a law- every pleasure essentially

gets converted into pain- By sheer nature of the pleasure. Whatever

rises, sets. If a certain pleasure has come to you, it has come to

you only to go! At the end of its tenure, the pleasure ends. Hence

when you get pain, sorrow, unhappiness, when you feel helplessness ,

THEN AN ADVICE , A REMINDER " comes into your INTELLECT " -

that " Nothing is mine in the world "

 

This reminder, this thought, this feeling, this experience AWAKENS

YOUR VIVEKA provided you know how to make use of that reminder!!

 

If even after getting pain, sorrow, helplessness- you still desire

to become happy- your conscience will not fully awaken. Because the

very cause of pain is " desire for happiness " . If you attempt to

remove " dukha " (sorrow) by getting " pleasures " - you are

unconsciously increasing, multiplying dukha only. Because the cause

of sorrow is desire for happiness and nothing else.

 

Therefore- WE MUST- when we receive pain/sorrow- relinquish the

desire for happiness ! On the other hand we must strive to find out

the reasons for pain/sorrow.

 

Says Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, categorically_

 

WHEN YOU RELINQUISH THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS AND WHEN YOU SEARCH THE

REASONS FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS YOUR VIVEKA (CONSCIENCE) AWAKENS !

 

Satsanga then greatly helps you. As Mike Keenor said-

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

As Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj said-

 

BINU SATSANGA VIVEKA NA HOI ( You don't acquire power of

discrimination without Satsanga)

 

To be continued- Conscience and Paramatma Realisation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Sadhaks ! When I asked this question I never thought that

deliberations will elevate to such heights. Indeed, as stated by

Sadhika Prepetina this group has a divinity of its own. What

surprises me is that in the same posting Brother Mike talks about

of importance of Satsanga, quotes BG 16:24 and in the same posting

Vyasji also talks about Satsanga being instrumental in awakening of

conscience. How common the truth becomes when it is a real truth !!

Unbelievable ! Jee Jee Shashikalaji " s Bhajan indeed reflects the

crux of what is conscience. Her example of a thief brings out a

common sentiment across all the human beings and precisely explains

what is " conscience " ! Pratapji has given absolutely dot on time

the dictionary meaning. On top of it, extracts from messages of

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What more can be more divine than

that !! Nothing pleased me more when Vyasji quickly reciprocated to

request of Prepetina to conclude fully my questions.

 

May this Forum live for ever.

 

Bandook Singh

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is that Viveka or discrimination is different and is

used in a much wider sense. My understanding is that " Vivek " is a

spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

ORIGINAL POSTING

: Shree Hari :

Ram Ram

 

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

The glory of the human body has been sung to a great extent in the

scriptures. That glory is not of the body with flesh-bones, but of

the discriminative faculty (vivek). Body has been condemned – `Panch

Rachit Ati Adham Sarira' (Manas, Kishkindha 11|2). In reality

humanity is the power of discrimination (vivek) i.e. knowledge of

perishable-imperishable, duty - non-duty, essential - non-essential,

permitted - forbidden. This discriminative faculty is like an

illuminator, by which all worldly and spiritual affairs are properly

carried out. Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek. Such an instrument is

not available in other forms of life. In the human body the

intellect occupies a much larger portion, in which there are more

particles (tantu) of knowledge. The heart area extends ten fingers

below the throat and ten fingers above the navel. In this heart

area, the intellect resides and its place of operating is the brain.

Vivek (discrimination) comes in the intellect (buddhi); it is not an

attribute of the intellect (buddhi). Intellect is the evolutes of

insentient nature. Intellect is like a magnifying glass. Magnifying

glass concentrates the rays of sun. The magnifying glass

concentrates the burning power, while a mirror centers and reflects

the illuminating power. Due to being very attached to enjoying

pleasures and hoarding, man even after hearing spiritual talks he is

unable to walk towards Paramatma.

 

Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt.

 

As a wealthy man, attached to pleasures, generally doesn't come to

Satsang (spiritual discourses), similarly demi-gods also being

attached to pleasures don't turn towards Bhagavaan (God). But if

they do come there is no objection. Kings like Ambrish, Janak etc.

have also been God's devotees. Sinners have also been God's

devotees; because at the root everyone is God's fragment (ansh,

part). So no one is prohibited from walking towards Paramatma (God).

 

In human body (physical body) there is not even an ounce of purity.

It is only a factory for manufacturing stool-urine. Therefore it is

not the human body that is praiseworthy, but its appropriate usage

is praiseworthy.

 

Those that have attained God, they are awakened. Those that are

engaged in spiritual practices are asleep. Those that are not

engaged in Bhagwaan are corpses. Those that are sleeping they can

wake up, but how can a corpse wake up?

 

Earning money is not in our sphere of control, but day and night we

are engaged in this effort. Worshipping (devotion, remembrance,

chanting, meditation, reading etc.) is in our sphere of control but

that is not being done! Working the entire life and thereafter

earning lakh rupees is also not in our sphere of control; but lakh-

three lakh Divine Name (God's name) can be recited daily. That thing

which is going to go with us is not being accumulated, but that

thing which will remain here itself, that alone we are hoarding!

 

Charity is done only with that money which is earned ethically.

Wells made with money earned via unjust means is not of use to

anyone; just like `Modi's well' in Bikaner.

 

From " Gyaan ke Deep Jale " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, pg 150-

151.

 

Ram Ram

 

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

This posting wraps up the discussion on this topic. Thank you all!

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

Re: Conscience , It's Role, It's Awakening as per Gita

QUESTION: What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? What is its role? How it is different than intellect.

How it is awakened? Where has it been referred in Gita? How

conscience leads you to God Realisation?

Bandook Singh

------------------------------

ALSO Combined the discussion thread on -Intellect-Its-Role?

Where It Resides? Connection with Vivek (Discrimination)?

-----------------------------

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION

 

Jay Shri Krishna

In Gita (7 - 4,5) God has described his 2 kinds of nature: " Earth,

water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and ego- these constitute

My nature divided into eight parts. This is indeed My lower

(apara/insentient) nature; but different from it, O mighty-armed is

My higher (para/sentient)nature- the life-element (Jiva), by which

this universe is sustained. "

 

Except these 10 elements (including God) nothing is left out. So

where does viveka (conscience) come in picture?

Thanks, Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS - JAN 12, 2009

1. Is vivek another element before realization?

2. After realization doesn't vivek exist?

3. How does vivek turn into realization? (QUESTION DETAILS BELOW)

Thanks, Varun Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

With due respect to GT Moderators , I would like to thank all the

participants in this deliberation for the kind words and messages.

 

Believe me, there was nothing original or novel from me or from my

better half ( really better - I mean it ). It is Taat Shree ,

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj , and He only everywhere. Sure , other

than Him are Sage Vashishtha, Lord Rama and Holy Gita.

 

Each and every principle , each and every concept, each and every

law, each and every theme /explanation quoted/discussed/written by

us was from the discourses of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shree

Ramsukhdasji Maharaj read with Holy Gita and Yoga Vashishtha.

 

Of course, the presentation, words, timing, and order were

individual so were many answers to individual questions and

definitely, a lot of errors in that individuality were from us. We

must apologise for unintentionally making errors on that front.

 

We had, while writing our responses/purports , many

independences/liberties still available to us, because we were to

summarise, infer, re-arrange, re-put, re-order, re-word, re-arrange,

re-classify, explain in our words etc etc out of discourses and

writings of Swamiji/ verses of Holy Gita and of Holy Yoga

Vashishtha and plus there were our individual experiences

influencing the responses.. We mUst have, therefore, diluted the

pure ecstacy, thrill and truthfulness of many things of those Great

Divine souls and of Holy Scriptures. Hence apologies from the deep

within.

 

Pranaams to all of Sadhaks of this Divine G T Group.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Priy Sadhaks,

I call upon all questioners & follow up questioners " WHERE DOES

QUESTION ARISE FROM " .

IS IS VIVEK

IS IT CONSCOUS

IS IT INTELLECT

IS IT ANY THING AT ALL

ANSWER LIES IN IT

THANX

RAJA Gurdasani

-----------------------------

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Swamiji said conscience gets awakened by SATSANGA ! Satsanga!

Association with Sat. When you get associated with Sat, the

association with ASAT extinguishes/gets lost. Sat and Asat are

enemies. The moment you come to know the difference between you and

Asat and similarity between you and Sat, and you firmly establish

yourself in association with Sat - the Bondage/sorrows/ego/

identification with body extinguishes. Your association with Asat is

lost. Gone! You are no more sorrowful.

 

It is now time for you to laugh!

 

When some thing extinguishes, it cries. Here having been seen, the

ego is weeping.

 

Narain Narain

Rajendra J Bohra

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

Brother Vyas,

Your post headed as below:

" YOU ARE MY ENEMY . HAVING BEEN SEEN BY YOU, I AM LOST " THUS

SAYING HE WEPT. "

Brilliant pure simple brilliance, I would encourage all to read this

article and really look into it, meditate upon it, contemplate

whatever. I have often mentioned dying while still alive, i.e. death

of ego, once ego is detected by Self it knows it is doomed, one

cannot

destroy ego by ego, but by Bhagwan .

 

 

B.G. 12

To these whose mind is set on Me,

Verily, I become ere long,

O Pritha’s son, their Savior from

The sea of mortal samsara. (7)

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-----------------------------

Jai Shri Krishna

 

Sir Vyasji Maharaj,

All my doubts are cleared. You said that vivek dies after

realization. Now as I

understand, after realization his conduct would be as mentioned in

Gita (3.33).

So there is no need of vivek. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Sir, I request you and all (including moderators) to address me as

Varun rather

than Varunji because I am 24 years old, much younger (even your

children might

be very elder to me) than all of you.

 

Thanks,

Varun Prapunia

------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

YOU ARE MY ENEMY. HAVING BEEN SEEN BY YOU I AM LOST. THUS SAYING HE

WEPT !

 

Enemy !! Sure ! How can temporary be friend of permanent? How can

Sentient be not enemy of Inert? SAT is totally opposite to ASAT !

Soul and Body have have totally different characteristics, features,

nature ! Absolutely opposite to each other. Light is definitely

enemy of darkness. JUST AS : At the advent of light , the darkness

gets lost SIMILARLY: The moment you see /experience/realise/ firmly

understand that you are separate from your body, the Bondage is

lost. You are different element altogether than this Ego, mind,

intellect, body, world . The moment you " realise " this fact, you are

free ! It was your " IDENTIFICATION WITH BODY " that was creating a

bondage for you. Your association, your agreement with mind was

causing sorrows, bondage for you- the moment you identify your SELF

to be separate from mind/intellect/ego/body/ " INERT " - YOU ARE

LIBERATED. All bondage is in mind only. All pains reside in your

association with Nature only. You are PURUSHA . How can PRAKRATI be

friendly, beneficial to you ? Both are totally different and

opposite elements ! How can pleasure arise when you meet your enemy?

Here SELF was in company of his enemy- hence suffering.

 

Where is the question of associating with an enemy when you know

for sure that he is your enemy? If you have seen poison in your milk

glass , will you drink it? The moment you feel separate/distinct

from your body, the ego is lost. ME and Mine are changed/

eliminated/corrected. Now there is no me or mine with reference to

ASAT, I am not of the world, the world is not mine. I am of the God

and only God is mine.

 

The cry here is of ego. So far PRAKRATI was ruling over the PURUSHA.

Mind was ruling over the SELF. Temporary was ruling over the

Permanent. Because SELF was stupid. SELF was under wrong

association. SELF was associating with ASAT. . SELF was desiring.

SELF was considering temporary to be permanent. A permanent element

was searching happiness in a temporary element. SELF was in the

ignorance zone and was disillusioned/ deluded. Now through the help

of SATSANGA, through the help of CONSCIENCE, through the help of

Viveka , it has been able to discriminate between SAT and ASAT,

between Soul and Body, between PARA and Apara. Where is Bondage now?

Where is now the sorrow ?. What desires can arise in the Son of the

King of all Kings? LIBERATED. JEEVAN MUKTA !! The ego is

extinguished. It is cry before death.

 

Jai Hanuman

 

THEN, LAUGHING

 

It is the laugh of Purusha, the soul, the pure you ! It is ANANDA !

 

Once the ego is extinguished ..... What else remains? Only SAT (

Existence ) , CHIT ( Knowledge/Consciousness) and ANANDA ( Bliss).

You in fact are that only and nothing else ! You are " sahaj sukh

raasi " , you are chetan (sentient) . You are part of God ! You are

happiness itself !!

 

You are Sachchidanand yourself !

 

Because you accepted earlier that " I am body " - you were worried

that it would fall sick/die ! Where is worry now? You are always

permanent, body is always temporary. You are always immortal , body

is always mortal. You are always peaceful, world is always agitated.

You are always constant, world is always changing. You are always

perfect , world is always imperfect. You are always complete, world

is always deficient .

 

Ha ! Ha !! What a Maya ! What a mirage!

 

HE GAVE UP HIS LIMB ALL ROUND

 

Elimination of Ego , eliminates the entire world out of your focus,

out of your consideration. Ego- through " me " and " mineness " , Raag

(likings) and Dvesha (dislikings) viz. THE DESIRES- was connecting

you to the world. Once you are out of Ego's kingdom, the world loses

its power to bind you. Your mind, intellect, body remain but as your

servants and not as your masters.

The world- upon extinguishment of ego- becomes like a burnt rope.

All the properties of burnt rope are visible but it loses its power

to bind you. The bondage " GIVES UP ITS LIMBS ALL ROUND " !!

 

CONCLUSION

 

Says Sage Vashishtha to Lord Rama in Yoga Vashishtha -

 

The mind is reduced to the state of Bondage only by its own net of

impressions

of thoughts or imaginations (desires), JUST AS the silk worm in the

cocoon

confines itself by bonds with ease.

 

This excellent story of the mind has been narrated to you .

Contemplating on

this with your mind itself, be firm and determined in abandoning

thoughts viz

DESIRES !

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-----------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

It is with great respect to Vyasji, I would clarify the point I

made. It is more of a suggestion that it could be due to usage of

worlds/language. Same words may indicate different meanings. So we

may be saying/meaning same.

What I mean by saying " ignorance covers Viveka " is just as cloud

covers the Sun. We alll know that from Sun's perspective it is never

ever covered. But as powerful as Sun is, even a tiny little cloud

can cover it for a person.

In the same spirit, one can say Atman can be covered by an Avaran

(sanskrit/Hindi) of Avidya-Ignorance from an individual's point of

view. Viveka-Conscience is the voice of Atman only.

Since Atman, Self, Truth, Viveka, Conscience, Paramatman, they all

point to ONE and the same Reality, which IS " Experiential

(Anubhutirupah) " ONLY, not a thing, so it can be said that this

(voice of )Viveka experience temporarily appears as though covered

up for a person which we call ignorance. This is why I say

ignorance covers Viveka!

Even Consciousness-Beingness(Sat-Chit experience) is

covered/ignored/disrespected by identification with limitation of

body-mind etc which we call ignorance. Identification with

limitations( including body-mind) happens due to Maya principle, of

course!

By Self(with Capital S) is meant Truth, Existence Absolute,

Consciousness, God, Reality. (Some refer self as ego, with small

case - s). Now Viveka is God as you say, then what does it

mean " Respect by Self* to Viveka is wisdom, Disrespect by Self to

Viveka is ignorance " , because Self(God) and Viveka are same.

To me Jeeva is itself ignorance, not that Jeeva has ignorance. Also

Ignorance is believing oneself to be Body-mind limited individual.

So Jeeva, Ignorance, and Identification are all one experience of

being limited and thus suffering which we call ignorance.

Identification is not the result of ignorance, rather, it is the

mother-ignorance itself from which other/relative ignorances arise!

This is why I hesitate to say as you suggest " Disrespect to Viveka

by Jeeva is ignorance resulting in identification of Consciousness

with body-mind object. "

Another point, Just as Sat is beginningless, so is Ignorance too!

Ignorance can end while Sat IS Eternal! When such limitations are

seen-understood as false, it is said that Viveka arose in that

person and destroyed the ignorance(identification), is what I

understand.

I see a subtle difference between Conscience and Viveka. Viveka is

Discrimination between Real and appearances, Noumenon and

phenomenon, That which is beyond mind and that which appear to mind,

between " ME " as Krishna says HE is and " me " , a limited sense we

believe to be. SO Viveka is deep understanding of Truth realized

once and for all, whereas Conscience is Truth's intimations

everytime required!

One doesn't need another element to disperse the ignorance when it

covers the Viveka. Viveka is always there but until it is realized

as such by sadhana which is not a new element, ignorance continues

to cover (or disrespect it).

Again, Vyasji I am only sharing what I have understood, not to

convince!

 

*If by Self is meant oneself, individual, ego, Jeeva, ignorance

itself, then how can " he " respect or disrespect Viveka? To respect

Viveka by Self means to say Yes to it or listen and act accordingly.

Not to do that would be equivalent to ignoring it or cover it up.

 

PS: There is only one ignorance, that of not knowing our true

nature. The rest of ignorances of various kinds cannot exist without

our Knowingness, Consciousness which tells us that we know " we don't

know, say, Physics " . Such Knowingness cannot be ever denied by us,

it is our permanent experience(chit aspect of our being sat), that's

why we are experientially sat-chit always ....

Namaskar................Pratap Bhatt

 

-----------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

We all should be grateful to Swami Jyotirmayanandji for his kind

blessings to this Satsanga forum and for an absolutely accurate

answer to many of our queries.

N.B. Vyas

----------------------------

 

Raam !

 

Divine ! Extremely educative deliberations. My Pranaams to Vyasji,

Mikeji,

Shashikalaji and Pratapji. Nothing can be more transforming than

such Satsanga .

I am proud and privileged to be a member of this Group.

 

Saraswati Sharma

-----------------------------

SADHAKS REORGANIZING VYASJI'S ENTIRE POSTING ON THIS STORY, RAM RAM

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

You have indeed presented to all of us , the true and real story of

each of us. All sadhaks should feel grateful to you. Sadhaks like

Michael and our Mike Keenor are real and respectable examples of

how a soul gallops towards the TRUTH once a desire or need has arisen

in it to find out the Divine . Soul recognises not any distinctions

of caste, creed, colour, country,. A burning desire is more than

enough to progress in spiritual uplifting.

 

This story in the first reading appears " mindless " though it is

exclusively about the " mind " - a funny story but very serious. For

serious sadhaks such stories set an order, a process of " sadhana " ….

And lead them straight to their goal- freedom from pain /sorrow …

systematically … step by step. For intelligent people such stories

are a challenge , a riddle, a reminder ! It is too brief in size but

too big in effect- like an arrow.

 

This story covers substance of . Soul ( SAT) , Conscience,. Jeeva,

Ego, Mind, Intellect, Destiny, Svabhav ( nature/habit) , Jagat (

World), Worldly Pleasures, Pain of the soul, Desires, MAYA ( Avidya,

agyaan, darkness, illusion, ignorance, stupidity, jugglery, ) ,

Knowledge ( CHIT, gyaan, light ) , Bondage, Liberation, , and

Jagdish ( God, Paramatma, ANANDA,- Divine, natural, absolute not

relative-, BLISS, PEACE ) This story is timeless. When we come

across such ocean deep stories , we cant help feeling proud of our

Religion, Saints and Sages, Heritage, and Holy Scriptures of eternal

Sanatan Dharma.

 

This " gaagar main saagar " ( Ocean in water pot) story first

thoroughly agitates and astonishes even the best of the human egos,

intellects and minds ; then gives them a powerful shock ; then

pacifies /satisfies/floors them fully. And then of course silences

them . In the end it makes YOU meet YOURSELF in SAT CHIT ANANDA

FORM.!

 

This story is the state of JIVA in his present form and is applicable

to all of us. It starts with Bondage and ends with Liberation and the

JIVA claiming the SATCHITANANDA FORM of Paramatma. Nothing explains

more eloquently the role of MAYA than this powerful short story. Who

else can be the writer of this story than CONSCIENCE which is direct

agent of Paramatma living in the human body along with JIVA ? Like

two birds on a tree – referred once by Mike Keenor in one of his

messages !! Who else can hold the soul so powerfully and ask such

direct questions than CONSCIENCE ?

 

It is from one of the most respected Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma –

called YOGA VAASHISHTHA - where Sage Vaashishtha teaches Lord

Rama .

 

Balance in next message. In the meantime serious sadhaks should re

read this story – seriously & peacefully, in order to gain out of it.

The best way to read it is to " feel " it so that your mind becomes a

scene and you become the seer and your conscience starts

responding. " To feel " – put yourself into equanimous zone in which

zone your conscience always resides – be like a court judge- no

personal likings / dislikings. Read it as a challenge to your mental

equipment. Believe for once in what ever clues I have given here in

above.

 

1. THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN

 

This world is the forest in which we all, with minds, wander about.

It is a forest because with the cool air and beauty of nature ,

there are thorns also. There are wild animals also and chances of

our getting lost too. Being forest there are no ways visible. We

have to make our own ways. All the beauty and dangers of forest are

present in human life. - of every body- no exceptions.

 

2 WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED, THAT FEARFUL ONE

 

We are not peaceful. We are confused - constantly seeking pleasure

and happiness. We are fearful. We don't know what the next moment

might have in store for us. We may die anytime, anywhere. We are

confused as well as fearful because we are basically split at the

sub conscience level. While body, mind, ego etc " natuarally " remain

estalished in prakrithi (world/nature) only being part of them, but

we don't belong to nature. It is law that fear develops when one

enters the arena to which he doesnot belong or ONLY when when is in

company of " others " .. When we get attracted/connected

with " stranger/other " world, fear and confusion stick with us

permanently, (which fear goes ONLY when we disconnect from world).

Constant changes and uncertainties of the world also make us

confused and fearful.

 

3 WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

We are equipped in this forest with sharp intellect and vision,

imagination of mind. With capacity to work hard, and control other

species, animals, and fellow men ( a thousand hands) and an

exceptional vision ( a thousand eyes) we set about in this world to

seek pleasure and peace. We seek help of mind. We make efforts to

fulfill our desires.We want to be the best, the wealthiest, the most

intelligent, the most knowledgeable, the healthiest, the greatest.

We want to have every worldly comfort which our Dear and our own

mind can conceive! We don't want to lose. We always want to win. We

are proud of our mind and our intellect (vision). Mind gives a

solution to our eternal desire of being peaceful and happy. DESIRE

FOR WORLDLY THINGS. Since we like mind, we have connected with mind,

WE ACCEPT the suggestions of mind. We start seeking worldly

pleasures.

 

4 STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF, CRYING

AND RUNNING ...

 

Once mind desires, the sorrow and pain is a must in all

circumstances. What else we can do in the beginning, middle or end

of worldly desires except beating ourselves, brooding, fretting? The

beatings referred in the story are the blows of fancies,

imaginations and whims. They are indeed caused by one self . We only

hurt ourselves and no body else when we are in fits of anger, greed,

anxieties, ill temper, attachment ... Desires! We keep hurting

ourselves and sufferring mental agonies and turmoils, inner storms,

agitations, turbulences, fears and what not. We cry ..... We try to

run away from adverse circumstances caused exclusively due to your

mind desiring worldly pleasures and things. Running away from

adversity but again desiring favourable circumstances !! Sometimes

the desire is to " get pleasure " , sometime it is to " remove pains " .

Desire continues, subjects change!!

 

5 FELL BLINDLY INTO WELL WITH HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Desires have hidden mouth. They blind the desirer too. At the outset

they look goals, pleasant. Health, wealth, fame, affluence, power,

position, status, flashy cars, spacious home, right, virtue,

authority, respect, .... great feelings. Desires are beautiful.

Pains come into experience in abundance later.

 

BLINDLY .... You get blinded by desires. Pains get hidden.This

process of blocking your vision is in 3 stages. In the first stage,

the truth is as hidden as fire is hidden by smoke. In the second

stage, the reality is as not visible as your face in a mirror with a

layer of dust on it. In the final stage the gets as concealed as a

fetus in the womb !!!

 

FELL/WELL : " fell blindly into a well " here in this story means Jiva

going to hell . Here one life time ends. Desires, (kaam), reaction

of anger emanating out of unfullfilled desires ( krodha) and greed

arising out of fulfilled desires ( lobha) are three gates of hell .

( Refer BG 16:21) . Hence " well " referred here can only be " hell " .

 

Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is

reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell,

 

6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME.

 

He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " -

habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes

back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be

substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of

past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of

destiny.

 

HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING

HIMSELF OFTEN,

 

Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He

still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but

decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove,

to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something,

to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to

get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more

worldly pleasures. But all worldly .

 

He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of

efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the

desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a

decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not

haunt him badly.

 

7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING

 

But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too.

Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in

conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start

coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys

labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been

described as

 

" AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES "

 

8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH

 

Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got

exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is

back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and

same hell again ! Because desires continue.

 

Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of

pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And

continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the

attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the

connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect

because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal

body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only

do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at

the first time !!

 

Hari Om

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " WHAT IS THIS? WHO ARE YOU? WHY DO YOU RUN IN

VAIN ?

 

And that voice asks you questions ! What is this? Are you supposed

to be in this shape? What have you achieved so far? Only that which

must leave you !! To achieve what must leave you- is no achievement

in reality. A human keeps wasting time and effort in achieving

temporary, perishables and momentaries.... What else? What else we

can achieve by using temporary tools like mind, body, intellect ?

WHO ARE YOU ? Are you what you are reflecting /believing/assuming

yourself to be? Are you the name by which you are called? Are you

the the ego or mind or intellect or the body? If yes, then how you

are witnessing changes in ego, mind, intellect, body ? Can " seer " be

the " seen " ? WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN? How much compromises, sins you

have made to fulfill your desires? Have your desires been fulfilled?

Do you now find yourself into that state where nothing remains to be

done or got or known by you?

 

These are the " discriminatory " questions. Real questions. These are

asked by conscience to Jeeva. What is Jeeva? Ego ! " Jeeva " resides

in " ego " - in " causal body " - in " ignorance zone " !

 

Hence the question - WHO ARE YOU ? - is replied in this great story

by EGO !

 

 

THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I AM NO BODY. I DO NOTHING "

 

EGO ! In fact this world is basically sustained by the Jeeva through

EGO !! Ego consists of " me or mine " and " likings and dislikings " (

Raag and Dvesha). With reference to your true nature this EGO in

fact is imaginary or fictitious. Because you are basically, Chetan (

sentient), Amal ( Faultless) , Sahaj Sukhraasi ( Naturally and

effortlessly blissful) , Ishwar ansha ( Part of God and God only-

not at all a part of Nature made of 8 elements referred in BG

7:4/5) , Avinaashi ( Imperishable). When ME and MINE are applied by

Jeeva towards Jagat ( World) , then ME starts appearing to you as

BODY, and mine starts appearing to you as world, worldly people and

things, mind, intellect etc. Simultaneously emerges in you likings

and dislikings and with that DESIRES. That is the end of you- the

pure you and beginning of Jeeva,, beginning of DUKHALAYAM and

beginning of endless calamities. Another name of worldly attachment

is Calamities !!

 

Sanatan Dharma addresses basically this EGO. Gita throughout

requires you to become EGOLESS. A Karma Yogi PURIFIES his ego by not

considering world to be me or mine and by applying whatever he has

got from the world- body, mind, intellect, worldly possessions,

powers, authority, wealth, virtue etc all - everything back to the

service of world, while himself remaining aloof, nishkaam,

expectationless from the results of service. A Jnana Yogi ELIMINATES

the very ego. He simply does not consider anything worldly to ME or

Mine. A Bhakti Yogi CHANGES his ego. He replaces ME part of Ego as

PART OF GOD ( I am of God) , and Mine part of Ego again to be God (

Mere to Girdhar Gopal). Result: Doosaro Na Koi ( Nothing else is

mine).

 

All three Yogis ( there are only three) DO NOT consider " ME " to be

BODY. You are not BODY. Hence Jeeva here replies to Mr Conscience I

AM NO BODY. I am imaginary. I am fictitious. I am no body. I am not

body. " I " does not exist. There is no " I " ! Jeeva !! What is

Jeeva except EGO- likings and dislikings, desires because Me is body

and Mine is world ? What is Jeeva except sense of " I " ? If ego is

eliminated/corrected/changed from worldly to divine- there is no

Jeeva ! Either SELF remains behind or GOD remains. World goes !! In

fact the world never existed except in the mind of JEEVA ! The world

does not exist! VASUDEVA only exists !! Vasudevah Sarvam !!

 

What do you do ? Nothing in fact. Things are happening of their own.

You are just

connecting/disconnecting/associating/disassociating/accepting/rejecti

ng !! You are doing nothing ! Jeeva does nothing. Says Gita

categorically- AHANKAAR VIMUDHATMA KARTAHAMITI MANYATE – Foolish

Jeeva, under influence/ ignorance/darkness of Ego ASSUMES/ ACCEPTS

that " I AM DOER " !! In fact I DO NOTHING !! Mark here the words "

VIMUDHATMA " – under ignorance/disillusioned ! In Upanishads , Ego is

stated to be residing in " IGNORANCE ZONE " ( Agyaanmaya Kosha) !!

Therefore here Jeeva says to Mr Conscience that I DO NOTHING !

 

" YOU ARE MY ENEMY . HAVING BEEN SEEN BY YOU, I AM LOST " THUS

SAYING HE WEPT.

 

As Simple as that !! Dear Sadhaks !

 

YOU ARE MY ENEMY: Enemy is always opposite. The very role of VIVEKA

is to discriminate. Para and Apara. Imperishable and Perishable.

Body and Soul. Permanent and Temporary. Khsetra and Khshetragya.

Ever Blissful and Ever Sorrowful. Sentient and Inert. Never changing

and Ever changing. Immortal and Mortal.PRAKRATI AND PURUSHA . – all

these opposite terms are to be distinctly understood. Viveka helps

you in that. Once you are able to understand, experience that you

are a permanent element, thereafter, what kind of pleasure temporary

element can give you? Once you understand that you are part of

God , immortal – what remains to be achieved by you ?

 

HAVING BEEN SEEN BY YOU , I AM LOST : This phrase should make every

Sadhak happy. It is a law that if you are able to see your mistake ,

it is gone. LAW, Dear Sadhaks, LAW ! When you realise that you are

not your EGO, when you realise that you are separate from your body

( experience, firmly believe, establish yourself- not simple

scripture knowledge- REALISATION ) , your ego is lost for ever. You

become egoless. You have achieved freedom. Nothing now needs to be

done by you, nothing needs to be got by you, nothing needs to be

known by you . GONE FOR EVER !

 

THUS SAYING , HE WEPT: This cry is lamentation of Ego upon

extinguishment.

 

Here Ego having been seen by SELF who was supporting Ego by mixing

SELF ( Para) with BODY ( Apara) – under illusion/ ignorance/ maya

and thus becoming Jeeva, has realised/ experienced that He ( SELF)

is separate from the body. The moment you do YOU ARE FREE ! What

then poor EGO do except crying?

 

What can ego do except crying, Dear Sadhaks? SIMPLY DISCRIMINATE.

SIMPLY EXPERIENCE YOUR " SELF " TO BE DISTINCT FROM YOUR BODY. The

game is over then and there !!

 

 

THEN LAUGHING, HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND

 

The laughter here represents the joy of the one, who has acquired

discrimination, who has mentally abandoned his abode in worldly

existence and who is giving up the characteristics of the thinking

mind.

 

When the knot of ignorance in one's heart is broken, there is no

bondage again by the qualities of nature. By whom is a fruit that

has fallen down , fastened again to the stalk even with effort? A

mirage, well understood, does not draw away a thirsty person.

 

When exactly ignorance is completely understood, at that very

moment, it is destroyed thoroughly, as the field of enjoyment in a

dream is destroyed with the dream when it is understood as a dream.

 

You , then, are satisfied quite every where. You rejoice everywhere.

On account of desirelessness of the mind, you possess happiness

everywhere.

 

HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS.....

 

When the delusion of the mind , " I am of the body or I am related

to the body " ; I am the embodied one or I possess the body, is

destroyed, is the understanding , " I give up this body or I do not

give up this body " , born falsely ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

---------------------------

 

Ego = Differentiating one from all others in existence = Doing all

with that one does as one identifies one as different from others =

Apara = Maya = Illusion = Finite = Destiny= No Choice = Slavery to

Diverse Identities = Duty whether desirable or not.

Consciousness= Conscience = Chaitanya = Bayragya = Rising above

individual identities = Realisation of Brahman = Para = Infinite =

Indestructible = imperishable = all pervative, all inclusive

Apara is what I do and think, Para is the source from which Apara

arose and gave me separate identity recognition.

Apara is the concept of I, you, they differentiation that I have to

live with while Para is the loss of differentiation and merging of

all identities into the single source.

Para creates and contains all Apara: Apara distances from Para or

sometimes approaches towards Para but never realizes that.

If Water is Para, ocean, seas, rivers, rains, clouds, ponds,

urine, etc are all parts of Apara.

 

Basudeb Sen

-----------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Basudebji,

Conscience = inner voice, purified intellect

Consciousness = Chaitanya, nature of Self

From Gita Talk Moderators

------------------------

You are spending so much time in this so the best would be you to

decide It is wonderful and repetitions do not matter

Many many thanks for very stimulating articlating thoughts for us to

ponder and act

Dinesh Patel

------------------------------

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhak

I am producing a short reply from Swami Jyotiramayananda who is the

disciple of Swami Sivananda

Shankerprasad Bhatt

***************

Blessed Self, Adorations!

 

Conscience refers to the Inner Voice or inner inspiration. God

guides you through your own Conscience.

 

Good Conscience is same as purified intellect. Intellect is purified

by Sadhana---Integral Yoga; a harmonious blend of Karma, Bhakti,

Dhyana and Jnana.

 

Gita talks about Chitta Shuddhi---purity of heart. This is same as

purity of intellect. See Gita (5/7). In fact Gita, is filled with the

theme of Chitta Shuddhi or purified intellect.

 

It is also possible that they are referring to Consciousness which

is Chaitanya--the very nature of the Self.

 

May God bless you!

With regards Prem and Om,

Yours in the Lord

Swami Jyotirmayananda

------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Is group refering to Consciousness (Chaitanya) - the very nature of

Self? or simply purity of intellect (chitta suddhi)? or other?

Kindly keep explanations short and to the point. It is easy to get

lost in words.

From Gita Talk Moderators

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Sadhak Pratapji has indeed beautifully replied to Varunji.However,

in my humble opinion , the last para may need to be revisited by

him. It reads as under:

 

Ignorance covers Viveka, Ignorance being identification of

Consciousness with body-mind object.

 

In my view ignorance does not cover Viveka. Disrespect to Viveka /

Voice of conscience is ignorance. Viveka / Paramatma are too big to

get covered. Ignorance can't cover Viveka. Disrespect to Viveka and

reliance by Self on ego/mind/intellect is responsible for

calamities/bondage/Jeevahood. Conscience inspite of being God

Himself resides in human body as agent/advisor/consultant only.

Conscience doesnot snatch away " independence " of Jeeva. It is not

supposed to do so. But if you respect to Him ( Just as if you

surrender to God) , He takes over your command and liberates you. It

becomes God then for you.

 

Ignorance may cover Jeeva, intellect, mind etc but not Viveka !

There is no difference between Viveka and God. Ultimately Viveka

converts into Paramatma Realisation. You yourself agree, and Swamiji

categorically stated that as Self and Prakrati both are

beginningless, hence Viveka is also beginningless. It is there since

day 1. It is not inert. I don't even subtly distinguish

between " Conscience " and " Viveka " - for me Shakti (function, power

of discrimination, Viveka ) and Shaktimaan ( one who exercises the

power, Mr Conscience, one who speaks to Jeeva from deep within, one

who watches conduct of Jeeva consistently ) , are one only. I always

believe it is either a part of / power of Self(Atma) or a part of/

power of Paramatma.

 

I would be pleased to be corrected on this. That there is an element

called " conscience/viveka " existing in human being is certain. It is

part of our direct experience.

 

Hence I feel that if the aforesaid para is reworded as under it

would be perfect:

 

Disrespect to Viveka by Jeeva is ignorance resulting in

identification of Consciousness with body-mind object.

 

If you respect Viveka , where is ignorance?

 

I will be happy, Pratapji, to be corrected. Varunji- what do you say?

 

If ignorance can cover viveka, then you need another element to

disperse that ignorance. Wind (air) can't be covered by clouds. It

is Viveka which destroys ignorance. Hence Viveka must exist before

ignorance enters. Respect by Self to Viveka is Wisdom and disrespect

by Self to Viveka is ignorance. All three - Purusha, Paramatma and

Prakrati are existing ab initio along with Viveka - power to

discriminate between the three. Rest all get born and die.

 

Viveka " dies " when Purusha merges with Paramatma. Prakrati " dies "

when it merges with Paramatma. In the beginning and in the end only

one element remains " Paramatma " . The moment second element arises -

Viveka also arises - Viveka the power of discrimination between two

or more elements. It is predominantly and more eloquently present

in human life. In other life forms it is there, but

only " symbolically " . It is not dead till Jeeva loses Jeevahood !!

Even in " Devatas " it is there, in animals it is there but most

prominent in human form of life only.

 

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

My observations on Varunji's questions. He is right in identifying

Viveka belonging to Chaitanya-Consciousness-Life-God and not to

great elements-insentience!

 

Conscience is how Consciousness-Atman responds when it is necessary

to respond, and such response is right action. We all know moments

when we feel overwhelmingly to take certain actions, or to avoid

certain actions and they turn out to be right! It is Conscience that

tells us.

Thus, it is not a separate element, just a word to indicate our

innermost(gut) feeling based response of God-Consciousness. Viveka

has slightly different connotation. Viveka-discrimination is between

that which we ARE, Consciousness-Beingness-ISness-Sat and what we

believe we are, body-mind individual.

When such Viveka takes place in an apparant individual,

Individuality-me-ego sense is dissolved in the ocean of Consciousness

(Chetna) and Conscience speaks loudest through that person. When

established in our Impersonal Beingness(sat) through this Viveka, it

is God realization only.

Viveka-Conscience is ever existent being higher nature of Paramatma.

Ignorance covers Viveka, Ignorance being identification of

Consciousness with body-mind object.

Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

Re: Conscience & Para (Real) - Apara (Unreal) Nature of God in Gita

The more we discuss the meaning of different words, the more we get

into confusion. Actually what Gita says is so simple that it can be

understood by everyone wishing to think himself. No amount of

discussion and debates with words will ever make people understand

about conscience or Nature of God. Sadhana is about practising to

live in the illusion of differences and diverse identies and at the

same time constantly being aware of the single source from which

everything arises and is contained in.

All thuoghts including the concept of God, all words in Gita or any

other words, all physical bodies, mind, work, life, names ---all

arise from, are contained in, are manifestation of and contains the

SINGLE ORIGINAL SOURCE that we refer to variously as GOD or PARA or

PARAATMAN or NATURE 0r CREATION or CREATOR. The different

forms/identies that we see or recognise are all APARA or the various

reflections of PARA the single original source. PAra is the REAL

source that eludes us while all that we deal with in life are APARA

and the great diversity of APARA keeps us tied to the illusion of

you, I, they, mine, our, your, etc. We are all slaves of APARA

nature that has been created by the mother source nature of PARA.

There is nothing more to know or discuss. Sadhak lives the life in

Apara but tries to remember that Para is the source, cover,

container of all Apara. Moving from different identities (APARA) to

single identity (PARA) is Sadhana.

 

Basudeb Sen

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

In this great story, so beautifully being explained by Vyasji and

Jee Jee Shashikalaji, for benefit of all sadhaks , based on the

eternal teachings of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj _

 

all three questions asked are fundamental questions.

 

1. WHAT IS THIS ?- is a question pertaning to the world (Jagat) !

 

2 WHO ARE YOU?- is a question pertaning to Self (Jeeva) !

 

3 WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN ? - is a question leading you to Paramatma

(Jagdish) ! It helps in firming up your objective , your goal !!

 

These questions require " discrimination " (Viveka) to answer. In

Animal form of life such questions are not possible to be raised. In

demi-gods , they are unnecessary. But in human life they are vital.

 

Answers to these questions definitely lead you to Liberation.

 

Narain Narain

Rajendra J Bohra

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Sadhak Varunji has asked a real genuine question and in my view THE

BEST QUESTION so far in last 6 months on Holy Gita.

 

He can be replied in many ways. Swamiji equated VIVEKA with God and

categorically stated that VIVEKA gets converted into God

Realisation. Since God is one of 1o elements, Viveka gets covered

there. Conscience is voice of God!

 

I also feel that elements like Equanimity, discrimination ( Viveka),

nishkaam bhav- they are functions too! What is wrong in clubbing

them and seeing them as functions of " stablised intellect " referred

in BG 2 ! Intellect once it " stablises " becomes changeless !

 

Thirdly, the pure soul ( self) has powers to

associate/disassociate/accept/reject/connect/disconnect. Pure soul

has only that power and nothing else- Swamiji categorically stated

that. Now granted that- the power of discrimination(viveka)

automatically becomes power of Self as discrimination is essential

to determine whether to accept or reject etc. Self is part of 10 !

 

Sadhak Varunji should come back if he is not convinced. He must !

Please go deep in this. It is a real genuine query. I will also come

back if I find from Swamiji's discourses/books more on this.

 

Thanks Varunji.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Thus asked : He said I am no body. I do nothing

 

Now you think, you realise. Am I body? I am certainly not the body.

Who feels " bondage " ? Certainly the body is not feeling bondage. Who

will go to heaven or hell ? Certainly the body will not go ! I am

not the name by which I am called. What was I before the name was

given to me ? I am not rich. There are people before whom I feel

poor. I am not poor. ' There are people before whom I feel rich. I

am just, watching, I am just feeling pleasure/pains, I am just

agreeing, I am just witnessing..... but that is not " doing " . However

deep you may think, -the fact will remain that you are " no " " body " .

You are not " body " .

 

You are not " doing " anything. You are simply accepting; or

rejecting or associating/disassociating with an action done / to be

done by the body or with an activity happening in the

world. " Accepting " is not " doing'I (e.g. you accepted some body to

be your father .... What did you " do " ? What was the action at

your end ?).

 

I AM NO BODY: Ego has no base to survive. It never had any basis.

Because You the pure you, got associated with it/supported, it was

surviving. ! Ego controls intellect. Intellect controls mind. Mind

controls sense organs.; Sense organs control physical body .......

all of them are part of world, arise out of world, remain always

in the world and disintegrate in the end in the world only ! What

you carry with you in the next birth is " your " svabhav, association,

attitude towards the world. " Me " & " mine " are fictitious, imaginary

& unreal.

 

I DO NOTHING: Breaths are coming & going. Blood is circulating in

the body. Body is functioning. Food is digesting. Diseases are

coming & going. Eyes are fluttering. Thoughts are coming & ,going.

Body is changing. World is changing. Circumstances, situations,

incidences are happening. Everything is changing. Everything is

moving. Nothing is static.. Even a dead body or a stone changes..

Activity is constantly, unceasingly, happening in the body .... in

the world: Cold & warm seasons are coming & going. Sun rises, sun

sets. Thoughts are coming and going in the mind. What efforts you do

to fall asleep? What am I doing ? What am I doing to cause hunger &

thirst, to take birth, to grow, to deteriorate, to fall sick .. and

to die ? Body is working & changing.. If 'I am working & changing,

then who is observing, who is witnessing the changes ? How can

the " Scene " & the " Seer " be the same?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Sir Vyasji, I remember reading the same in Swamiji's books that

vivek turns into tattvagyaan (realization of truth). I have 3

questions on this statement - 1. Is vivek another element before

realization? 2. After realization doesn't vivek exist? 3. How does

vivek turn into realization?

 

That element is said to be insentient (jad) which doesn't know

itself as well as others. And sentient (chetan) is referred to as

that conscious element which knows itself as well as others. So as

per this principle the first eight elements can be ruled out. Now

that leaves us with the God and its fragment Self (jeeva). Vivek has

to be surrounding these 2 elements. It cannot be a separate entity

because if it becomes then equanimity, sentiment of devotion (bhakti-

baav) etc. will also be different elements which don't seem to be

possible.

 

Also vivek has to be immortal because one who knows the distinction

between mortal and immortal has to be immortal. Jeeva being fragment

of God is Sat-Chit-Anand (Immortal-Consciousness-Bliss). So like

immortality, is this second attribute of consciousness also somewhat

related to vivek?

 

Thanks,

Varun Paprunia

==============================================================

COMBINING DISCUSSION THREAD - Intellect - Its Role? Where It

Resides? Connection with Vivek (Discrimination)?

----------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I believe the extract below from this post, could do with a good

airing. I realise that the simple model of the human body falls

very short of the higher reality, this is something that the

individual can discover for him/herself, by various spiritual

practices. (Woe betide those that play around outside the spirit, in

such things).

 

I have disciplined myself , (sometimes I have fallen outside the

guidelines, for that I apologize to moderator ). But at

the same time regarding, how many thousands readers of these two

sites? The ones who have fallen between the cracks, they are my

beloved fellow imperfect. Maybe the extract below can shine a light

on their confusion.

 

'...The heart area extends ten fingers below the throat and ten

fingers above the navel. In this heart area, the intellect resides

and its place of operating is the brain....'

 

I apologize for my verbosity .

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hare Krishna

 

I would like to paste some text from SSS related to intellect and

realization

 

" Gyaan hone par tattva mein kuch farak nahi padta. Farak us buddhi

mein padhta hain, jisme agyan hai. "

" After realization there is no change in tattva (truth-element).

Change occurs in that intellect which has ignorance in it. " (Page

775, column 2 - para3, line 1-2)

 

Now the question is that what change can occur in that intellect.

Answer is on same page

 

" Sharir-Sansar to upar se waise hi dikhte hain, par unme astitva-

buddhi mit jaati hai.. "

" Body-world seems to be the same from above, but 'It has an

independent existence'- this ignorance from intellect is wiped out. "

(same page, column 1)

 

SSS = Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu

 

Thank you,

Varun Paprunia

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

Mr.Mike is correct about intellect residing. This is very clearly

explained and shown with proof by one saint called Veera Bramam

lived in Andra Pradesh, India. The sant has given details of how it

functions by Chakras in human body. The Sant took to Jeeva Samadhi

in 18th century I presume. His Samadhi is in Caddapah, Andra Pradesh

even to day, like that of Saint Gnaneswar.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

The heart is physically present in the body. Intellect may be

present in the

brain but real vivek or discrimination can be developed only through

spiritual

practices like sadhana, satsang, sewa and meditation.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

-----------------------------

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

There are long explanations In short human being have the mind

having mind intellect which creates thoughts in the mind and then it

goes for its action. There is a conscience means atman which finally

decides what to do ?

 

This is the process of our handling our life. When our coNsciousness

reaches the final stage it comes nearer to God. Then there are

chances for liberation ( a long process )

 

Thanks

 

Truly yours

 

S S Bhatt

-------------------------------

 

Very interesting.

 

Thank you.

 

Warm regards

Captain S.M.Divekar

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Firstly I extend a greatful Thanks to you to include me in your team.

With Respect and Devine love

Shiv Shankar

-----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I fully agree with Sadhak Pratapji Bhatt. His description of

Conscience is very timely. When the " reflected " intelligences ( in

the words of Swamiji- Viveka- as quoted by Brother Mike Keenor under

another Q) which are only Pure Consciousness , are intent on or on

the point of willing or ideation, then , they attain to the state of

individual souls or individualised consciousness- JUST AS WATER

ASSUMES THE STATE OF WAVES !

 

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated that there are two ways to

awaken your conscience. Sorrow and Satsanga ! Here in this story the

man is tormented by affliction and sorrow. Serious sadhaks hence

forth should meticulously read each and word of this story. Read

between the lines too! Read rather " feel " ! Put your self

into " equanimous " zone and then read. We are reaching climax. We are

only a couple of steps away from benediction!

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " WHAT IS THIS? WHO ARE YOU? WHY DO YOU RUN IN

VAIN ?

 

And that voice asks you questions ! What is this? Are you supposed

to be in this shape? What have you achieved so far? Only that which

must leave you !! To achieve what must leave you- is no achievement

in reality. A human keeps wasting time and effort in achieving

temporary, perishables and momentaries.... What else? What else we

can achieve by using temporary tools like mind, body, intellect ?

WHO ARE YOU ? Are you what you are reflecting /believing/assuming

yourself to be? Are you the name by which you are called? Are you

the the ego or mind or intellect or the body? If yes, then how you

are witnessing changes in ego, mind, intellect, body ? Can " seer " be

the " seen " ? WHY DO YOU RUN IN VAIN? How much compromises, sins you

have made to fulfill your desires? Have your desires been fulfilled?

Do you now find yourself into that state where nothing remains to be

done or got or known by you?

 

These are the " discriminatory " questions. Real questions. These are

asked by conscience to Jeeva. What is Jeeva? Ego ! " Jeeva " resides

in " ego " - in " causal body " - in " ignorance zone " !

 

Hence the question - WHO ARE YOU ? - is replied in this great story

by EGO !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I've read Ji Ji Shashikalaji's article deeply also I recall her

dialog between Jiva and Maya, and also appreciate Michael Hagen's

gut feeling concept, I would like to go a little deeper.

I think I told this story before, in the current light I think I

would like to look at it again and add an addendum.

A true story I read when I was a young man:

A reporter for a newspaper, used to work himself very hard, living on

coffee and junk etc., but he had the habit of dropping out for a

complete break for a few weeks. This time he rented a cell(room) in a

monastery of a silent order. He took to meditation/contemplation,

tuning into the ethos of the place. He took to sitting in the back of

the chapel to listen to the monks as they chanted their devotions.

He would then leave prior to the end of the service.

One morning he remained alone after the monks had left and was drawn

before the alter, whereby he collapsed in grief pain horror spiritual

agony self loathing remorse outreaching and so on. And found he was

not alone, a very old monk had returned, comforted him, assured him

this was not unknown to him. Of course this journalist was never the

same again. I never thought it would happen to me!

The heart can release suddenly, as it were, like an explosion of

love, overpowering, one changes there and then.

I think I will leave it there for now.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Conscience when it awakens asks questions. It straight away attacks

the very roots of your existence! " Me and Mine " - Ego !

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " me " . WHO ARE YOU?

Body or soul? Temporary or permanent? Perishable or imperishable?

Sentient or inert? Seer or the seen? Kshetra or Kshetragya? Mortal

or immortal? Ever sorrowful or ever blissful?

 

It " discriminates " to make you realise as to " mine " ! What is yours?

The world and the worldly people or Paramatma? Or worldly things or

body? Who is yours? To whom do you belong?

 

SATSANGA- association with virtuous people, Saints and Sages ( like

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) , association with Truth, reading of

Holy Scriptures ( Like Gita, Ramayana, Bible etc) , membership of

selfless forums like this Gita Talk Group etc- provides you the

answers to these questions.

SORROW propels/ raises such questions. SATSANGA answers such

questions.How easy! Hence Swamiji sings glories of adverse

circumstances in human life. Therefore it is sorrow and satsanga-

that help you in getting liberated. It is our foolishness that we

run away from sorrows!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Thanks GT Moderators !

 

VIVEKA - THE POWER OF DISCRIMINATION

 

When Mr Viveka takes over the hold of you, there are lots of

questions. There is a lot soul searching. Your peace gets snatched.

Conscience forces you to listen to him.You have choice still of

disregarding him, but only after hearing him !!

 

Viveka (Conscience) takes you beyond desires/mind ! It

discriminates. Viveka only and not mind that suggest to you

that " desires are insatiable " . Gita also suggests that only. Can

fire extinguish if you keep adding fuel into it?

 

You want to have good spouse, children, parents, lot of money,

robust health, fame - so that you may become happy. This is

suggestion of mind.

 

Viveka confronts you with a counter question. Whether those who have

better spouses, children, more money than you, etc - Are they

happy ?? Happiness is not in presence of worldly things, it resides

in absence of desires for worldly things.

Your mind wants to change the circumstances, situations to suit it,

to suit the desres/goals ! It never takes easy/simple ways. Your

conscience tells You that one can never change the circumstances, a

simple way is to " change yourself " . Pain lies in feeling of

deficiency within. That deficiency gets created when you desire!!

You consider your self to be big, if you have lot of money! Now who

is bigger? You or money ? We make a mockery of ourselves by

desiring. What we have to get, we shall get, irrespective of our

desiring for the same!! Worldly things will not stop coming to you

if you stop desiring- only pains will cease!! How easy ! How simple!!

 

YOUR MIND CHEATS YOU JEE WHEN IT SUGGESTS THAT " To renounce desires

is very difficult " . Ask your mind - " WHY DONT YOU SUGGEST THAT TO

FULFILL DESIRES IS IMPOSSIBLE? " That mind will never suggest to

you ! That only Mr Conscience can tell you.

 

Wake up .... Jee ... O Dear Child of God ... Wake up !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

-----------------------------

Dear Aspirants of Peace !

 

Thank you very much for recalling my question. It was so near the

conclusion , yet it became so far. Frankly, I thought that steam has

run out of this group when real concluding time came. I even

considered unsubscribing but something in me stopped (

conscience?) ! Looking forward to the deliberations.

 

Conscience according to me is " gut feeling " , a sixth sense,

something which is present in a human being definitely. Something

which is capable of tormenting a sinner. Something related with

inner peace of a human. I agree with Sadhaks that it should be

respected. However I am eager to know how it leads you to ultimate

truth. How to convert it into what you sadhaks call as liberation or

benediction- freedom from the sorrow for ever !

 

Thanks, once again.

 

Michael Hagen

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Thanks Shashikalaji. Certainly that story depicts the role of VIVEKA

( Conscience) in the best possible manner. That story is the story

of each one of us , having been quoted in YOGA VAASHISHTHA –

unquestionably one of the most respected and profound heritage

Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Viveka – how does it discriminate?

What does it discriminate. How it functions. What is the result of

disrespect to Conscience.? What is the result of respecting to it?

All these factors are covered in this story. I had covered this

story upto " HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE

CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH KIND, AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS

AWAKENED BY ME FOR A WHILE. "

 

A human being is seen constantly by VIVEKA. Viveka remains as a

spectator to your conduct and when you pay respect to it , it takes

over the responsibility of guide, friend and philosopher to you. If

you keep listening to the dictates of Viveka, it can lead you to

Liberation. This story is complete story in itself of a man's

journey into human life – from Bondage to Liberation. Conscience

holds you BY FORCE. It snatches away your logical mind. It snatches

away your very tranquillity, peace. Nothing torments a human more

than his conscience ! Condition is – you must not ignore it

consistently – under sway of desires.

 

Before I continue with the story let me request sadhaks , to refresh

themselves by reading the text and responses again. It was explained

that DESIRES for worldly pleasures, ( Maya) is responsible for a

man's agony and lack of peace. When a person gets utterly helpless,

caught in the web of its own mind, own desires- a voice comes- a

powerful voice from deep inside –

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain?

 

This, Dear Sadhaks , is the voice of VIVEKA asking to JEEVA !

Jeeva !! That Jeeva who now is nothing except EGO !! Jeeva forgets

who actually he is ! He considers himself to be body, to be say

Vyas N B, to be an assumed entity. Conscience tells him, explains

him what actually he is. Conscience asks questions. Conscience lets

him " discriminate " . Conscience holds him BY FORCE ! Read the

questions asked by Viveka to Jeeva ( Ego- Embodied self) ! Admire in

the meantime the depth and simplicity of the questions.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Friends

 

Thanks to Jee Jee for recalling Mike's unconcluded Q. I think it

will make us all wiser. Conscience or viveka as it is called in

native language is experienced/felt by all of us sometime or other.

I agree with Mike Keenor that it must be discovered to be

beyond " intellect " . I think conscience prevents a human being from

abstaining from evil deeds. Still if a man sins, then conscience

even punishes internally a man and distorts his psyche. Conscience

if it is hurt then never allows a person to remain at peace. Hard

core criminals perhaps disrespect the conscience and then only they

can commit evil deeds. Conscience to me is like a police man present

in you. I am happy that there is religion in the world which not

only analyses this extra terrestial faculty in a human being, and

leads what you call soul to utilise it properly and then reap

highest rewards. Wonderful ! It is astonishing to find that there

are Saints of the class of Swami Ramsukhdas who can really throw

light on such an element and can guide humanity at large on proper

utilisation of such element. I also agree to the latest post of Mr

Pratap Bhatt who so eloquently explained the element. Of course Mr

Vyas N B and all other learned sadhaks have thrown light on the

element. It is indeed great to be part of this Gita Talk forum

 

Thank You all

 

Luca B

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

In the ocean of Supreme Consciousness-Existence, waves keep on

arising and dissoving back in the ocean.

One of such waves realizes it is Ocean appearing as wave called " I-

me " .

Then it realizes further there is only water, neither wave nor ocean!

As water, it knows(Chit) it IS(sat), everywhere and nowhere(not

located in space), Ever Present(timeless), and in bliss(Ananda) as

no " others " exist to relate to with a possibility of conflict, and

is complete in Itself!

As wave it is time-space bound(ignorance), but not as water

(enlightenment!

It is not embodied as water, nothing exist outside or inside of It,

never comes and goes as water!

It acts are always in line with THIS understanding as Water

(imperishable), not as a wave(perishable).

This " Understanding " is wave's Conscience!

It acts always for greater good!

It says to itself:

But as wave, I see many of my fellow waves who don't know this truth.

They think and act as if they are truly the waves, limited-bound-

suffering!

The wise wave feeels the need to share the Truth.

How?

As water it need not find any words. So it became Conscience!

IAs wave it found words knowing full well the limitations of its

waveness(body-mind),

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

I request GT Moderators to merge an earlier not fully concluded Q on

Story of mind from Yoga Vaashishtha under this question.(It was a Q

by Michael Hagen , I recall).

 

When Mr Conscience takes over the reigns ... There are plenty of

questions. Plenty of soul searching. You start " discriminating " !

You start thinking - Am I body? Who feels the " bondage " ? Certainly

the body is not feeling the bondage! Who will go to heaven or hell?

Certainly body will not go! You start thinking deeply as to who you

actually are. Why you are.

 

In that Michael Hagen question ( Story of mind- In GT group it was

listed under the Q - Biggest astonishment of the world) which due to

our going on vacations could not be concluded , the story takes you

to conscience. It is conscience who holds that man and asks - " What

is this? Who are you? Why do you run in vain? "

 

If GT Moderators can kindly merge that thread under this Question-

it will help the Sadhaks immensely- particularly because writer of

that story was Mr Conscience ! Alternately this posting may be

listed under that Q.

 

Thanks Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---------------------------

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

PASTED PORTIONS OF MESSAGE. TO READ ENTIRE STRING PLEASE VISIT :

/message/1764

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------

 

Dear Aspirants of Peace

 

On this question , though I dont have much to state as my knowledge

of Gita is very very limited. But recently a friend gave me an

Indian Holy text in which the following short story was there. It

appeared very surprising story to me. I wonder if any one can throw

more light on it.

 

" THERE IS A FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST IN WHICH THERE WAS A MAN.

WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED , THAT FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND

EYES, STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF,

CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN MOUTH.

THEN, GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST. THEN, AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING

AND LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS OF SUCH

KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY ME FOR A

WHILE.

 

HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you? Why do you run in

vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do nothing " . " You

are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " . THUS , SAYING ,

HE WEPT . THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN

THAT HUGE FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT

FOREST IS THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

My question to this forum is to explain the above story. Who held

whom? Who asked questions ? What is the substance ? What is the

moral?

 

Michael Hagen

----------------

In Gita Yudhistir was asked the same question and he replied that

the greatest surprise was that though everyone knows that he has to

die someday, we all behave and go through life as if we are going to

live forever. That was the greatest of surprises in this world.

The moral of Michael Hagen's story is that we are all lost souls

going about the motions of living, without knowing what we are

doing, without knowing the purpose of our existence. We are like the

man who runs and keeps on falling in the well because we do

thoughtless things over and over again. Only a God-realised person

or through meditation can one know the real meaning of life.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

------------------

 

-----------------------------

Dear Mike,

 

It is an extra-ordinary story of a spiritual seeker and his

observation on himself transparently. I felt as if it is told of me

and my own foolishness! Thanks for sharing it. This is my

interpretation of the story.

 

Story: FORMIDABLE AND DESOLATE FOREST

 

… is the confused jungle of thoughts in one's perception.

 

Story: MAN WITH HIS MIND CONFUSED

 

… is the ego (or individual) lost in it.

 

Story: FEARFUL ONE WITH A THOUSAND HANDS AND EYES

 

… is the infitude of variance in the perceived world perpetually

throwing mutually conflicitng fears and desires on the individual.

 

Story: STRIKING AT HIS BACK VIOLENTLY WITH IRON BARS BY HIMSELF

 

… means afterall the individual himself is harming himself thanks to

his ignorance.

 

 

Story: CRYING AND RUNNING , FELL BLINDLY INTO A WELL WITH A HIDDEN

MOUTH

 

… means the lamenting fool drowns oneself beneath the ignorance of

depression in the name of sadhana shutting down one's sensory

operatus fearful of its transparency on one's reality.

 

Story: GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME, HE ENTERED THE THORNY

FOREST

 

… the fool entered into silence with no appreciation cannot

withstand its oblivious nature and runs back into the same life full

of chaotic thoughts and actions.

 

Story: AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN , RUNNING AND

LAUGHING AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES.

DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING

AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH.

 

… the story of repeated convolutions of delusions, illusions and

halluscinations with the worldly interaction continues till one's

tendencies (Vasana in Sanskrit) continue to haunt oneself.

 

Story: HAVING SEEN FOR A LONG TIME , THAT PERSON WHOSE CONDUCT WAS

OF SUCH KIND , AND HAVING HELD HIM UP BY FORCE, HE WAS AWAKENED BY

ME FOR A WHILE. HE WAS ASKED BY ME : " What is this? Who are you?

Why do you run in vain? THUS ASKED, HE SAID : " I am no body . I do

nothing " . " You are my enemy . Having been seen by you , I am lost " .

 

… the inner wisdom keeps its check on one's misconduct in one's

spiritual progress and acts as a catalyst to force one into self-

examination to root-cause one's problem rather than scrutinizing the

environment … realizes that the environment was never the enemy, but

oneself hiding from oneself perpetually … the individual comfounded

not understanding (not withstanding) what is going on wonders, " Who

am I? Am I not my enemy in the first place? Why am I running

frantically? Even if I run for ever, can I escape from myself?

Because of my association with my image, I am corrupt … is it not

time to drop this image? "

 

Story: THUS , SAYING , HE WEPT .

 

… But … how to drop that image – that is where, Mike, I am stuck

personally!

 

THEN , LAUGHING , HE GAVE UP HIS LIMBS ALL ROUND. THUS IN THAT HUGE

FOREST MANY MEN LIKE HIM DWELL , WANDERING ABOUT. THAT FOREST IS

THERE EVEN TODAY !!! "

 

… definitely … the confused thoughts and actions still swarm me …

thanks to the image I am unable to let go … that is where, Mike, I

am stuck personally … I suppose the image will drop out one day …

when, I realize that I do not need to hide in the well … when I

realize the wandering itself is WONDERFUL in itself … when I realize

that there need not be push of desire to get out of a well and there

need not be any pull of fear drowning me into its oblivion … when I

realize that the very fear and desire are rooted in the very image I

am holding on to … when I realize that I don't need to frantically

recycle myself between oblivious wandering in the world and drowning

in the well … probably by continuous self-scrutiny in spite of such

frantic wandering around and drwoning within!!

 

Thanks for the WONDERFUL fact to teach me with its WONDERFUL

transparency.

 

THANK YOU. It is really WONDERFUL to receive the knowledge which

alone can eliminate the oblivious darkness haunting me within.

 

THANK YOU.

 

Deep Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Falling prey to " Maya " is the most astonishing wonderment in my view.

 

Some supplementary thoughts to the story explained by Tamma

Bhaiyya :

 

In the forest of worldly life our mind gets confused Jee ! and

there is a fear arising naturally in us because basically we are

permanent/ complete/never changing/ blissful - avinaashi/sahaj

sukhraasi Jee !!! But the world that this mind is attached to is -

temporary /

incomplete/deficient/ever changing/ ever sorrowful !!

 

Because of " svabhaav " (habits/individual attraction to the nature)

and past deeds/karma (association with strangers i.e the world) - we

desire worldly things and pleasure Jee !

 

Our desires are many, but as such only one Jee! ... Whatever we

think through mind .. Must happen Jee! The desires come in the form

of " my likings " ( Raag) and " my dislikings " (Dvesha). However, the

bitter truth is that simply by desiring we cannot get " worldly

pleasures " Jee, we can only get Daddy ! But that Daddy is

beyond " mind " Jee. Worldly pleasures are " natural " to mind, because

mind belongs to the world Jee, so does intellect and ego Jee( notion

of me/mine).

This mind (which I had said before is better if thrown in the

dustbin) seeks world and worldly pleasures only Jee.

 

This mind cheats us Jee in this regard. We like absolute fools

believe that " desiring " is necessary for getting worldly things. We

forget under the illusion caused by me/mine notion ( MAYA) that

while we don't desire sickness or death or adversity, still we get

it Jee. Even highly educated people, possessing a thousand hands and

eyes, say - " You must desire. The world will come to a grinding

hault if you stop desiring Jee. They think that if you don't have

desires, you are dead " Jee!

 

What a belief, Jee !! How wonderful, Jee!! How surprising !! As if

they desired to take birth, to grow, to fall sick, to deteriorate,

to die and as if they really selected their parents, children,

spouses, relatives, circumstances, situations, incidences, states,

happennings, colour, caste, creed, country, time, age !!! WHAT A

MAYA ! WHAT AN ILLUSION !!

 

That the most astonishing wonderment in human life, Jee! Maya !

Ignorance!! Stupidity !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having

complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not

been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers

immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps

cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and

permanent pain.

 

Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment

of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is

cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not

bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind ,

brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is

no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we

get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000

dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire

has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had

receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow

till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind,

and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !!

 

Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more

desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as

well as in sorrow,mind cheats us.

 

But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment

being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our

fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They

continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They

are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every

wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God !

 

When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly

suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by

telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the

time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that

happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is

responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr

Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was

bad " ) !

 

But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No !

They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my

vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me .....

mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ......

Non sense !!

 

What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear

Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ?

Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from "

sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) ,

part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave

and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !!

 

This is Maya , Jee !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

There is nothing greater than Paramatma. Whatever great thing you

have received, Paramatma is greater than even that. If you get

anything greater than Paramatma (surprisingly), then please,

immediately share will all of us, so that we also come to know. But

as such there is not such a thing, or else it would have not escaped

Swamiji's sight. Thank you !

 

Sarvottam

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

SIMPLE PROCESS OF AWAKENING OF CONSCIENCE

 

The world has got a peculiarity. It always cheats, it always commits

treachery. In fact the world does not cheat , rather cheating occurs

in the world. Reason is that we get attracted towards the world to

get pleasures. But in the end- as a law- every pleasure essentially

gets converted into pain- By sheer nature of the pleasure. Whatever

rises, sets. If a certain pleasure has come to you, it has come to

you only to go! At the end of its tenure, the pleasure ends. Hence

when you get pain, sorrow, unhappiness, when you feel helplessness ,

THEN AN ADVICE , A REMINDER " comes into your INTELLECT " -

that " Nothing is mine in the world "

 

This reminder, this thought, this feeling, this experience AWAKENS

YOUR VIVEKA provided you know how to make use of that reminder!!

 

If even after getting pain, sorrow, helplessness- you still desire

to become happy- your conscience will not fully awaken. Because the

very cause of pain is " desire for happiness " . If you attempt to

remove " dukha " (sorrow) by getting " pleasures " - you are

unconsciously increasing, multiplying dukha only. Because the cause

of sorrow is desire for happiness and nothing else.

 

Therefore- WE MUST- when we receive pain/sorrow- relinquish the

desire for happiness ! On the other hand we must strive to find out

the reasons for pain/sorrow.

 

Says Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, categorically_

 

WHEN YOU RELINQUISH THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS AND WHEN YOU SEARCH THE

REASONS FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS YOUR VIVEKA (CONSCIENCE) AWAKENS !

 

Satsanga then greatly helps you. As Mike Keenor said-

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

As Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj said-

 

BINU SATSANGA VIVEKA NA HOI ( You don't acquire power of

discrimination without Satsanga)

 

To be continued- Conscience and Paramatma Realisation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Sadhaks ! When I asked this question I never thought that

deliberations will elevate to such heights. Indeed, as stated by

Sadhika Prepetina this group has a divinity of its own. What

surprises me is that in the same posting Brother Mike talks about

of importance of Satsanga, quotes BG 16:24 and in the same posting

Vyasji also talks about Satsanga being instrumental in awakening of

conscience. How common the truth becomes when it is a real truth !!

Unbelievable ! Jee Jee Shashikalaji " s Bhajan indeed reflects the

crux of what is conscience. Her example of a thief brings out a

common sentiment across all the human beings and precisely explains

what is " conscience " ! Pratapji has given absolutely dot on time

the dictionary meaning. On top of it, extracts from messages of

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What more can be more divine than

that !! Nothing pleased me more when Vyasji quickly reciprocated to

request of Prepetina to conclude fully my questions.

 

May this Forum live for ever.

 

Bandook Singh

 

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What is this conscience that Sadhaks speak off in

this group? Conscience that who you are and what you are.

What is its role? To share knowledge and pave path to knowledge.

How it is different than intellect? Intellect tells right or wrong.

In spite of intellect telling one can do wrong. But if one practices

to obey only conscience there will be ONLY righteousness..

How it is awakened? Awakening to divinity and dettachment.

Where has it been referred in Gita? All over Geetha.

How conscience leads you to God Realisation? Because you are

conscience of right things only, as such all evils eliminated and

you become purely divine.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

Hari Om

 

Conscience ( Viveka) is awakened by 2 ways:

 

1 By Satsanga ( Company of good people, truth, reading of Holy

Scriptures like Gita, Bible, Ramayana, etc)

 

2 Sorrow, pain, calamity (Dukha)

 

Satsanga puts you in tune with God ! With Equanimity! Sorrow

withdraws you from the world !!

 

Both Satsanga and Sorrow are independent means- certified by Holy

Gita. Satsanga drives you towards equanimity. God resides in

Equanimity. Hence one definition of Yoga (Union with God) is -

" Samatvam Yoga Uchyate " - Equanimity is Yoga( BG 2/48).

 

Sorrow propels withdrawal from the world. Withdrawal from the world

is withdrawal from sorrow- from Dukhalayam. Another definition of

Yoga in Holy Gita is - " Tam vidya dukh sanyog viyogam yoga

sangyitam " (BG 6/23) !!

 

In Shashikalaji's words - " That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for

you, Dear Sadhaks. "

 

Says Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj in Ramcharitmanas-

 

BINU SATSANG VIVEKA NA HOI

( You don't get discrimination without Satsanga)

 

In Shrimad Bhagavatam Lord Says

 

" It is because of association with Saints that my powers , truth is

known. By being with them Shraddha, Prem and Bhakti ( Respectful

belief, Love and Devotion respectively) are developed " ( 3/25/25)

 

Hence we must never leave " Satsanga " and never mind receipt of

sorrows. We must leave " kusanga " ( association with evil). We get

benefits from satsanga and we lose by 'kusanga' in equal proportion.

But there is one difference !

 

That difference is that the sin of being in bad company (kusanga)

will get extinguished after giving you bad results. And the impact

of bad results will also extinguish. Any thing in connection

therewith will extinguish. But the benefit of Satsanga will result

in awakening of your conscience and even after giving this result ,

the same will not get extinguished ! That is because " Viveka " is

truth . It is SAT . Truth always remains. Sat always remains. Hence

association with Sat never ceases after giving you fruits. Nor does

the fruits of Satsanga cease. But evil (kusanga) can't remain for it

does not exist. Nor can fruits of evil can remain for ever. NASATO

VIDYATE BHAVO NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH (BG 2/16)

 

To be continued:

 

1 Simple process of awakening of Conscience through Satsanga/Sorrow

 

2 (In deference to the wishes of Sadhak Prepetina Gonsalves)

Conscience and God Realisation after development of Shraddha , Prem

and Bhakti.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-----------------------------

Dear sadaks,

Viveka Sakthi that which always tells one, inwardly right and wrong

of thought/action. But there are 3 other sakthis, 1)Iychya Sakthi

(desire) 2) Kriya Sakthi (effort) 3) Ygana Sakthi (power to control

anything in universe) A person riding cycle comes across a deep pit

suddenly. His desire not to fall in the pit. Iychya. He puts effort

to apply breaks (Effort) But he falls in the pit. Shridi Saibaba was

once having dinner with other people. The roof was collapsing, but

Baba said stop the roof just remained in falling posture. Ygana

Sakthi.

For these 3 sakthis to function properly our 3 karmas namely

Prarabdha Karma, Santhita Karma and Agami karmas of the past is

hindrance.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Conscience tells us the difference between right and wrong. My

understanding is that Viveka or discrimination is different and is

used in a much wider sense. My understanding is that " Vivek " is a

spiritual word related to religion,

particularly in Hinduism.

Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Well , as far as terminology is concerned some poets have called

VIVEKA or Conscience as MANN also . MANN also is used by all of us

as " mind " ! Now the word MANN in Hindi may not mean precisely mind,

but once you grasp the features of the element such words lose

significance. Nothing depicts the characteristics, features and

functions of Conscience or faculty of discrimination or Viveka , by

whatever name you may call that, ever existing in you , more than

this great Bhajan. Sadhaks may read and enjoy: The element

Conscience to which Vyasji is referring or the element to which

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is calling VIVEKA according to me has

the

following features :

 

TORA MANN DARPAN KAHLAAYE ! BHALE BURE SAARE KARMO KO DEKHE OR

DIKHAYE !!

 

Your conscience is said to be like a mirror. All your good and evil

conducts / karmas are seen by conscience and are shown to you (to

Jeeva/Self) ! ( DISCRIMINATION)

 

MANN HI DEVATA, MANN HI ISHWAR MANN SE BADA NA HOY ! MANN ANDHIYAARA

JAB JAB PHELE, JAG ANDHIYAARA HOY !!

 

IS UJALE DARPAN PAR PRAANI DHOOL NA JAMANE PAAYE ! TORA MANN DARPAN

KAHLAAYE!!

 

Your Conscience is Demi God, Your conscience is Supreme God . There

is no one bigger than your conscience. When your conscience gets

dark ( gets disrespected) , the entire universe for you becomes a

dark place. O Praani ( Jeeva) ensure that no dust accumulates on

this clean mirror ! Your conscience is said to be like a mirror ! (

GIFT OF GOD. GOD HIMSELF LIVING IN YOU., NEED TO RESPECT YOUR

CONSCIENCE )

 

SUKH KI KALIYAAN DUKH KE KANTE , MANN SABKA AADHAAR ! MANN SE KOI

BAAT CHHIPE NA , MANN KE NAIN HAZAAR !!

 

JAG SE CHAHE BHAAG LE KOI , MANN SE BHAAG NA PAYE !! TORA MANN

DARPAN KAHLAAYE !

 

The flowers of pleasure and the thorns of sorrow- your conscience is

the basis of both. You cant hide anything from your conscience, it

has thousand eyes ! You may run away from the world ( conceal from

the world) but you can never run away from your conscience ! Your

conscience is said to be like a mirror ! ( ALWAYS EQUANIMOUS,

TRUTHFUL, EVER VIGILANT, NEVER CHANGING, )

 

We are referring to this element , Dear Sadhaks ! This is Viveka !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

 

Shashikala

 

------------------------------

Beautiful ! Unbelievable is this " divine " satsanga forum. So many

learned sadhaks getting under one platform and discussing

selflessly what is righteousness, " dharma " and the ways and means of

liberation. Hats off to all of you. I must thank my stars that I

somehow became member of this group. Yes! Jee Jee Shashikalaji - we

all experience voice of conscience. You gave a real life practical

example of conscience functioning in a human being. We all

experience such voice coming from within. Most certainly as Brother

Mike and Vyasji put it this element is not exactly " intellect " - it

is much beyond that. I am eagerly looking forward to future postings

and would request senior fellow sadhaks to conclude this topic

only after corelating conscience with God Realisation and not

before that. It is an ocean of nectar flowing.

Prepetina Gonsalves

 

-----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I have read all the comments thus far, all good, all have different

spins.

 

This is not surprising, since western philosophers have been debating

the subject since the time of the Greek civilization.

Some philosophers consider that all are born with a conscious, some

say it is derived from God.

 

Perhaps the conscience must be discovered, I agree, nothing to do

with

the intellect. Take for instance cannibal societies, who saw nothing

nothing wrong in eating their kind to gain power from their dead

enemies etc. Two generations later many would rather starve than do

such a thing.

 

Once one perceives with clarity the evil in something, thus it will

remain in the mind.(But one knows evil should be expunged from ones

personal world).

 

BG: 16

The scriptures should be your guide in

What should be done and what should not.

Knowing what the scriptures prescribe,

You should act here within the world. (24)

 

As one becomes more and more at one with the 'Indwelling Divine

Lord', then ones conscience evolves to a higher and higher level.

 

 

Below I will paste part of the latest post from sadhak_insight

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

'...Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek.....'

 

'...Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt....'

 

From the points made by Swamiji, conscience appears to be the force

that prevents us from misusing vivek.

 

Maybe Brother Vyas or any Sadhak could offer some thoughts on the

line, '...this power of discrimination (vivek shakti)...'

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------

Shree Hari

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Dear Bandook Singh Ji, thank you for a very good question.

 

Being 'Conscience' in my opinion is to have the awareness or

vigilance or carefulness in our conduct or behavior though it may be

painstaking at times. This constant awareness is made possible

through 'Viveka' only. Simply put, 'Viveka' is the cause and 'being

conscience' is the effect. As has already been explained by Mr. Vyas

and others that Viveka is the faculty of recognizing the distinction

between right and wrong, real (Sat) and unreal (Asat) -

(Ref: 'Viveka' is explained in Gitaji: 2/11-30).

 

In Ramcharitmanas, Goswami Tulsidasji says:

 

" BaRe bhaga manusha tanu pava,

sura drlabha saba granthanhi gava " (Uttar Kandha, 43-4)

 

It is great fortune that you have secured a human body, which – as

all the scriptures declare – is difficult even for the gods to

attain.

 

Here, the importance is not being given to the human body but to the

Viveka only. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses that

this Viveka is the key important requisite for the Yoga of

Knowledge. The Viveka is not something new to us which we acquire

from outside, it is always there, at times it may be on the back

burner. The

`Viveka' is beyond the Budhi (or intellect) but is accessible

through Budhi when the Budhi is pure.

 

|| Ram Ram ||

 

Humble parnam,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

 

If Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj gave high importance to anything in

a Sadhak's pursuits - particularly of a Jnana/Karma Yogi - he gave

that to Viveka ( Power of discrimination/Conscience). In fact he

would often say that animals are far better than humans in every

sphere but humans are superior even to Demi Gods because of Viveka.

The importance of human life is only because of Viveka. Viveka is

the " gift of God " to every human being.

 

Viveka (Conscience, power of discrimination) in fact

is " experienced " by every human being sometime or other- there is no

doubt on that- being part of our direct personal experience.

 

Viveka in fact is a permanent advisor given to you in the human life-

to act as Jeeva's friend, philosopher and guide.If you don't heed

to your viveka , it falls onto dormant zone but never never dies.

But if you pay respect, it increases His presence in you

consistently. Viveka awakens in you many times without your making

any efforts. When it awakens it expects you to take notice, to

regard and to heed to it. Consistent disregard of conscience /

Viveka converts a human being into an animal or even worse than

that. The importance of human life is ONLY BECAUSE OF VIVEKA present

in you.

 

All three- You (self), God and Viveka ( conscience) are made of the

same stuff. None changes. None is perishable. Each is present at all

times. Conscience (viveka) is always positioned in Equanimity

(samata) evaluating Jeeva's conduct. God is also equal to all. (

Gita- Samoham sarvabhuteshu) . It is the job of viveka to advice you

and propel you towards equanimity. The difference is that while God

and You remain always together even in heaven or hell or in other

forms of life , but viveka gets associated with you predominantly

only in human form of life. It is there with demi Gods but since

that form is " bhog yoni " - you don't need that. Discrimination reg

what to eat or what not to eat is there in the animals also but

limited to that extent only. But in human life you can reap full

benefits of Viveka. What is the benefit? It is only through VIVEKA

you can get God! It is because of presence of Viveka in you that

even Gods want human birth.

 

Gita starts with Viveka only.

 

To be continued- Awakening of Conscience/Viveka.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Already nice explanations have been given by Sadhakas! As Vyasji put

it, its great way to begin new year with Viveka!

 

Conscience translates as per dictionary, the sense of right and

wrong, ideas & feelings within a person that tell him when he is

doing right or warn if doing wrong. The sense of " right "

and " wrong " is rooted in societal conditioning, as " value system " in

a person for the most part. However, Conscience runs deeper in the

person and uncovers that place in him where lies the hidden gems, a

kind of inner voice of Atman that warns him of wrong doing or helps

him to do right. This comes from innate feeling in us " Don't do

unto others that you don't want them to do to you " .

To me Conscience is intimations coming from the very Existence-Atman

which is Intelligence and discrimination (viveka). An individual is

a conditioned existence and thus it is possible that " his "

conscience or discrimination also may be conditioned to conform or

to resist societal values. But we generally don't use Conscience to

indicate such sense of right and wrong. Human Conscience seems to

arise in Consciousness-Existence Absolute-God which is Intelligence

showing the way to act or to warn a person if doing wrong. He/she

may not heed to such intimations is a different story.

Finally The greatest discrimination-Viveka or Jewel Crest of

descrimination(Shankara's Vivekchudamani) is between SELF(what

we " are " ) and non-self(we are not) or as Vyasji has put it between

Soul and Body, Sat and Asat, temporary and permanent.

I would also add that from Gita, between Kshetragna(knower) and

Kshetra(knowns).

When I realize that I am that Permanent, Changeless, Sat, Soul

(Consciousness), then true Viveka has taken place!

And dear Sadhakas, it is not some far fetched hypothesis, but

reality of all our experience as our " conscience " may be telling us

right now!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------

 

Shree Hari:

Ram Ram.

Sometimes we miss things within our reach. Please get benefited by

the text reproduced from Swamiji Vineet Sarvottam

 

Discrimination - Importance of Discrimination (Vivek)

 

Human body is vivek-prominent (discrimination). Vivek means to know

what is essence and what is not (saar and asaar), duty and non-duty

properly. Man does not use this vivek, does not value it that is why

he is suffering. If he accepts his vivek and conducts his life

accordingly then he will be greatly gratified and also gratify

others! Scriptures, saints, guru, mother-father etc are to awaken

this vivek. They are responsible for waking this and they do it.

There is an important thing to know from vivek, concentrate on that.

 

From ordinary viewpoint, money seems to be a big thing and it is;

because everything is bought from money. We buy a lot of things with

money and our work is carried out. Because of this money seems to be

very important for sustaining life. The life that we are living, we

adore it a lot. Even a sorrowful man doesn't want to die. So for

living foodstuff, water, clothes etc. are used. Our life may be

sustained, our lifeforce (praan) remains intact, we remain healthy,

we become educated - for all this things are essential. For those

things only, money is required. For money there is no need of

things. Yes, money can be made out of things; but things are very

superior to money, by which our life is sustained. Money is used in

give and take of foodstuff, clothes etc. So money is not directly

required for sustaining life but things are required. So things are

more valuable than money.

 

Even important than things are – living species, humans, animals,

birds, trees. They are very useful. By nourishing (nurturing) them

we get things that are required in our daily life. So those through

whom life is sustained, those species are great. In living species

also, cow is very great because cow's body is very pure and useful,

even her cow dung-urine is pure and the dust flying from her hooves

is also pure! In all religious rituals, cow's milk, curd, ghee, cow

dung and urine is used. The milk of cow is more pure (sattvik) than

that of buffalo etc. and other animals. Those who drive car know

that hearing a horn cow takes the footpath, whereas buffalo remains

standing on road. Hence, buffalo's milk is not pure (sattvik) and

makes the intellect gross. Even being so useful and pure cow does

not have ability to attain Parmatma tattva(God-element). This

ability is only in humans. Hence a human is greatest in all the

living species. All other living beings, they reap the fruit of

their previous karmas and by bearing them they get purified. But in

human, there are two things - one is to reap fruits of old sins-

virtues and work for redemption. To enjoy favorable and unfavorable

circumstances and to get happy-sad is also available in animals. To

derive happiness and to get rid of sorrow, animals also make efforts

according to their intellect. But what will happen in future-

animals and birds are not capable to think over this but a human is.

 

Human beings are vivek-prominent (predominance of discrimination).

So where my benefit lies and where my harm lies, what will lead me

to progress and what will lead me to downfall, what is to be taken

and what is to be forbidden, what is everlasting and what is

transitory- only human is capable to know all this, not an animal-

bird. So even in humans, vivek is valuable. Those who alter their

conduct according to vivek, they are great in human beings. Vivek is

great so humans taking its support and conducting according to it

are also great. Vivek is for what? Vivek is there so that man does

good work and not bad, take the essence (saar) and gives-up the non-

essence (asaar); do such thing that in present and in future, ours

and others, everyone gets happiness. Vivek is primarily awakened in

dispassionate humans. Attached and pleasure-seekers are not wise.

They only look at present, whereas dispassionate men look at future,

consequence.

 

When human starts giving more importance to things and money, then

his vivek is burked. Lord has described 3 kinds of intellect in Gita-

Sattvik, Rajasi, Tamasi.

 

" That intellect which correctly determines the path of activity and

renunciation, what ought to be done and what ought not to be done,

what is fear and what is fearlessness, and what is bondage and what

is liberation, that intellect is Sattvika. " (Gita 18.30)

 

" The intellect by which man does not truly perceive what is Dharma

and what is Adharma, what ought to be done and what ought not to be

done- that intellect is Rajasika. " (Gita 18.31) " The intellect which

considers even Adharma to be Dharma, and sees all other thins upside-

down, wrapped in ignorance, that intellect is Tamasika " (Gita 18.32)

 

Sattvik intellect is in few humans. This does not mean that others

do not posses sattvik intellect. People who utilize sattvik-

intellect appropriately are few in number. Many people have rajasi-

intellect. People possessing tamasi-intellect are even more in this

Kaliyug; everything looks upside down to them. What is meant by

upside-down outlook? Giving more value to money than things and

living beings. They only hoard money. For money if they have to lie,

deceive, rob, kill, murder etc. then they even get ready to do it!

For money they start killing cows. This is an absolute tamasi-

intellect. Earning money and protecting it is not tamasi-intellect,

but not to think over true-lies, real-unreal, everlasting-

transitory, good use-misuse, benefit-harm etc, and to make money by

hook or crook is tamasi intellect. After this what will happen?

Importance of money will increase. Then money will not be for things

but for increasing its count. Things will also become a source for

increasing its count. If thousand comes then million, if million

comes then billion, if billion comes then trillion- in this manner

the desire will keep on increasing. They don't even think that by

earning so much money what are going to do? Neither do they think of

good conduct, nor do they think of people, nor do they think of

things, only one thing that they think of is to make money and hoard

it. By so much hoarding others are getting poor- they don't even

look at it. Even if a sattvik human has less amount of money, he

benefits others and he himself is also benefited. But by a tamas

human, he himself and others are ruined, even if he has a lot of

money.

 

To spend money and to hoard money- these are 2 parts. In this only

part of spending money is useful for self and others. Hoarding

inflates ego in us that ruins both – society and us. In society,

poverty, conflict, jealousy, hatred, robbery etc. increases which is

a cause of society's ruin. Whatever evil characteristics - conduct

are there they all come from the viewpoint of increasing count of

money. A person considers himself to be great because of money but

in people's heart he doesn't hold any respect. At the bottom of

their heart, they all disrespect and malign him. Being subdued by

money others don't say anything, this is different, but they don't

have any good sentiments for him. But a viveki (one who

discriminates), dispassionate human is respected by world heartily.

 

Even greater than vivek is Dharma and truth-element. Those who

follow the righteous path, they are elevated. Everyone respects them

who walk on the path of truth. Ordinary people also respect him,

rich people also respect him, Kings also respect him, saints also

respect him, and what more to say, those who walk toward the truth

even God respects him! So truth turns out to be the greatest. For

that truth only vivek is, for that vivek only human is, for a human

only thing is and for things only money is. Human is vivek-

prominent. So it is very important for him give respect to vivek,

give value to it and whatever is greater than vivek if he spends

time on attaining it, then he won't have to see sorrow even after

death. Money, things, people etc. all will remain here only, will

not be carried but Dharma and truth-element will not remain behind.

By attaining the truth-element one will be at peace forever.

Attaining that truth-element is the most important aim-goal of human

life. If one does not attain it then his life is not successful.

 

Eating-drinking, resting, enjoying pleasures etc even dogs, pigs,

donkeys do. There isn't any great glory in it. Great glory is only

in attaining God-element, in which ours' and world's, in present and

future, everyone's benefit lies. Like Goswami Tulsidasji there have

been many great mahatmas, they did their redemption and also

redeemed world. By their words today also the world benefits,

escapes from downfall, gets peace, comes to know about the path to

truth. Such kind of welfare even the richest of rich can never do.

So the main aim should of attaining truth. When money also turns to

truth, thing also turns to truth, human also turns to truth, and

vivek also turns to truth, then progress will happen. If no heed is

given to truth but to perishable things and more than things if

importance is given to making and hoarding of money then only ruin

will happen.

 

Intellectuals have more influence on society. So it is their duty to

give importance to vivek and spend their life in attaining truth-

element.

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 674-675 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Swamiji would often sing glories of Viveka and no other Saint to my

knowledge after Goswamiji Tulsidasji Maharaj has paid more attention

to viveka - conscience in English- than Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj. He explained this term / element with such an eloquence and

clarity that when I read this question I became very happy.

 

At the outset, I don't think there can be any human being who has

some time or other not felt the presence of/heard the voice of

conscience in him. It is exclusive prerogative of human form of

life. In sadhaks, the conscience(viveka) is more active, because

they pay respect to it.

 

Take practical example, Jee!

 

A person goes to some house without prior information. The main gate

is open. He enters , there is no body in the hall. On table a

beautiful watch is lying. He always desired to own a beautiful watch

like that. His mind will say- How great if I own this watch. Why not

to lift it? The intellect would assess the circumstances, would

suggest - No body has seen you entering the house, it is unlikely

that you may be caught. Hands are ready to pick the watch and legs

are ready to go back quickly. Organs of action are awaiting command

from mind. Mind relies upon intellect. Desire to own the watch is

already there. But with the thought of " theft " in mind, there will

be a voice coming from deep within- " No, No you are thinking of

stealing. Stealing is a sin. You should not steal " - This is the

voice of your conscience. This is Viveka. This is discrimination.

Who does not experience this some time or other?

 

Suddenly your hands will start trembling. Now fight is between

Jeeva and desire, between intellect and discrimination, between mind

and heart. If you disrespect your conscience , and still commit the

sin of theft, the world at large may not know it, mind/intellect may

become happy - but your conscience will never approve that. It will

tell you always - you stole ! It never changes. It never approves a

sin. It discriminates precisely between good and evil. If you pay

respect to it you will not be able to steal. If you don't pay

respect to it, it will haunt you, pester you, snatch away your inner

peace ! Any doubt on that?

 

That is Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for us - Dear Sadhaks. That is

viveka. That is conscience. That is the closest element to your

soul. The voice of your conscience. The voice of soul. Never

changing advisor to you. Agent of God living within you! . Always

equanimous. Always correct. Always truthful . It addresses Jeeva

boldly. That element gets ultimately converted into Paramatma

Realisation !

 

Hence Swamiji would often equate Viveka (Conscience) with God !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

----------------------------

Conscience in Hindi is not so much Viveka as Atma e,g. Atma ko badi

chot lag- gayi hai. Often exact translation of terms is impossible

and even misleading. The translation must convey the meaning and the

sense that a word or term denotes in specific contexts.

 

Shiva Bajpai

-----------------------------

 

 

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Conscience can be understood as antahkarana (inner faculty), but not

at vivek i.e. discrimination that becomes one andblends with tattva-

jnana (knowledge of the real nature of things). Not knowing the

word " conscience " I am remaining silent.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

It is so great to begin the new year with discussion on VIVEKA. To

me whether we call that discrimination, or conscience or stablised

intellect, or " sthithapragya " or Viveka or " intelligence " - it

hardly matters. What matters is that this is called in Hindi as

Viveka , and it is the unique element which is available exclusively

to human beings. In humans it can awaken to such an extent so as to

get you God Realisation- no doubt on that..

 

 

I too call always Viveka as " conscience " in English and frankly

find word " conscience " to be very representative of what is called

in Hindi as VIVEKA. I have always used the word " conscience " to mean

Viveka. Hence let us get straight away to its characteristics

 

The importance of human body is only because of Viveka. It is far

different than intellect (buddhih). It discriminates between " real "

and " unreal " , duty and non duty, good and evil. The intellect does

not discriminate. A thief/pickpocket is also an intelligent person.

He plans, thinks, determines, executes- that is he uses intellect.

Who says a criminal does not use intellect? Another major difference

is that intellect always changes but conscience never changes. If

you have spoken a lie, and no body knows about it but still

conscience will always tell you now and even after a decade that you

spoke a lie. It never changes.

 

Another important difference between " intellect " and " viveka " is

that the former is the effect of karmas. Viveka is not the effect of

karmas. It is with you ab initio.

 

In fact another very important role of viveka is discrimination.

Gita starts with the function of Viveka only- discriminating between

soul and body, sat and asat, temporary and permanent etc.

 

Only VIVEKA (conscience) has power of liberating you.

 

To be continued

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

Vivechan/Vivechanam is Sanskrit word. This is meant in mind level to

distinguish good or bad, right or wrong. But knowing right one can

do wrong. Vikek is power of mind inbuilt by way of life. Hunter does

not know killing is wrong or right. A bramin/learned knows.

Candle power, compared to star is extremely large. Intensity of glow

depends on its fuel. Larger the candle diameter and bigger the wick

the glow is big. So also the knowledge and devotion to GOD depends

on ones intensity. A little pooja or little time spent on God gives

little effects like candle. Deep love for God is like star. Besides

intelligence can be used for wrong purpose also, thus making one

intelligent crook.

 

My humble feeling is vivek is not intelligence. Experiencing oneness

with the universe is existence of Satva Guna only. There will not be

Rajo or Tamasik Gunas. This has nothing to do with Vivek.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Hari Om.

Dear SIr,

Conscience is connected to the police in us.

He can judge the ethical value of all our karmas.

The power of discrimination of ethical values of our deeds is

given by conscience.

Intellect according to GIta is krushna himself.

Mind is ours and intellect is krushna's.

Mind is like a monkey as man has come from monkey.

Our intellect is that of krushna's.

THis is connected to our soul light.

As Krushna is our soul light.

we can realise Krushna only if he decides to show who he is.

We should pass tough tests and keep chanting his name,

Keep reading Bhagavadham, do sadhana (spiritual practices) till we

are examined by Krushna.

Krushna conscience is a life time process.

 

With regards,

Usha Sridhar

-----------------------------

 

Respected Bandook Singhji,

 

I beg to slightly deviate from the Gita, just to begin with, only to

come back to It later on.

 

If the moderator will kindly allow me to quote from various

scientists about it, Vivek is not precisely 'conscience'. It should

be better rendered as 'intelligence'. Conscience is always personal

or communal as it is developed in the group, community and our

education system; it can be briefly described as a kind

of 'conditioning' to conform to the society. That way, a vegetarian

persons's conscience does not allow him to kill animals for food,

whereas a flesh eater can kill or eat meat without any stirring his

conscience.

 

Now, while conscience is personal/communal, 'intelligence (vivek)'

is impersonal and it comes with God's grace. According to modern

scientific discoveries, the whole universe is not as it looks or

appears but it is pure 'intelligence' from the quantum worldview.

For example, if we light two candles in one room, both candles may

look separate/different, but the light is one. If we bring one

candle outside at night, its light and the light coming from the

stars, billions of light-years away, is also one. One pure

intelligence is filled all around. Proportionately, the gap between

two electrons in an atom is as much as the gap between two

galaxies. (This is according to Einstein and other atomic

scientists).

 

If we see the divided/separate/different objects in the world, this

is not vivek (intelligence); but when we feel/experience unity with

one and all in the universe, this is vivek. Now coming back to the

Gita, 'avibhaktam vibhakteshu' - undivided wholeness (as it is in

reality) in the divided and separate world (as it appears to the

senses)comes with vivek (God's grace, whichh is kripa-sadhya

(possible with His grace) and not kriya-sadhya (impossible with the

activities of our senses)

 

To sum up, the purpose of 'consience' is to conform an individual

according to the conditioning of the community, whereas the purpose

of 'vivek (intelligence' is to be 'sat', to feel 'vasudevah

sarvamiti').

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

-----------------------------

Dear sadak,

You are conscience of your existence and everything around you. You

are also conscience of existence of Galaxies not seen by you. Your

conscientiousnesses on how these came into existence leads you to

realization-To God. Said in Sanskrit " Pragnanam is Bhramam "

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shri Vineet Sarvottam

 

Thanks for a quick response. You want to know Hindi equivalent of

Conscience. Conscience means in Hindi - " Viveka " . My question is

where is this Viveka situated viz it is forming part of what

faculty- intellect, mind, ego, body, fire, air, earth, water, sky -

of what? Swamiji would often talk about Viveka. Please talk , if

possible, with reference to Gita- because I am fond of Gita. This is

also GITA TALK GROUP. Where in Gita it is referred? How it is

awakened? How does it lead you to God Realisation? What is its role?

Awaiting eagerly responses from a real battery of experts on the

subject led by such a jnani purusha as Vineet Sarvottam.

 

Bandook Singh

 

----------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Friend Shri Bandook Singhji, It would be so nice if along with the

English word " Conscience " the hindi equivalent was also included. In

Gita related talks we can benefit greatly by staying within the

confines and limits of the word knowledge (shabda gyaan).

Very well, Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------

ORIGINAL POSTING

: Shree Hari :

Ram Ram

 

5th January, 2009, Monday

Paush Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Somvar

 

The glory of the human body has been sung to a great extent in the

scriptures. That glory is not of the body with flesh-bones, but of

the discriminative faculty (vivek). Body has been condemned – `Panch

Rachit Ati Adham Sarira' (Manas, Kishkindha 11|2). In reality

humanity is the power of discrimination (vivek) i.e. knowledge of

perishable-imperishable, duty - non-duty, essential - non-essential,

permitted - forbidden. This discriminative faculty is like an

illuminator, by which all worldly and spiritual affairs are properly

carried out. Glory of human body is actually the glory of

appropriate usage of this power of discrimination (vivek shakti). By

misuse of this faculty great harm can be caused. Intellect (buddhi)

is the instrument to reveal power of vivek. Such an instrument is

not available in other forms of life. In the human body the

intellect occupies a much larger portion, in which there are more

particles (tantu) of knowledge. The heart area extends ten fingers

below the throat and ten fingers above the navel. In this heart

area, the intellect resides and its place of operating is the brain.

Vivek (discrimination) comes in the intellect (buddhi); it is not an

attribute of the intellect (buddhi). Intellect is the evolutes of

insentient nature. Intellect is like a magnifying glass. Magnifying

glass concentrates the rays of sun. The magnifying glass

concentrates the burning power, while a mirror centers and reflects

the illuminating power. Due to being very attached to enjoying

pleasures and hoarding, man even after hearing spiritual talks he is

unable to walk towards Paramatma.

 

Stealing, breaking trust etc. is misuse of power of vivek

(discrimination). `Narak Swar Apbarg Niseni' (Manas, Uttar 121|5)-

this body is stairway to heaven, hell and is a doorway to salvation-

`Sadhan Dhaam Moksha Kar Dwaaara' (Manas, Uttar 43|4). After coming

into this body we can go to hell by misusing the God-gifted vivek

and attain salvation by appropriately using this vivek. Making

nuclear bombs is great misuse of power of vivek. In light of the Sun

one can read Vedas and one can also hunt.

 

As a wealthy man, attached to pleasures, generally doesn't come to

Satsang (spiritual discourses), similarly demi-gods also being

attached to pleasures don't turn towards Bhagavaan (God). But if

they do come there is no objection. Kings like Ambrish, Janak etc.

have also been God's devotees. Sinners have also been God's

devotees; because at the root everyone is God's fragment (ansh,

part). So no one is prohibited from walking towards Paramatma (God).

 

In human body (physical body) there is not even an ounce of purity.

It is only a factory for manufacturing stool-urine. Therefore it is

not the human body that is praiseworthy, but its appropriate usage

is praiseworthy.

 

Those that have attained God, they are awakened. Those that are

engaged in spiritual practices are asleep. Those that are not

engaged in Bhagwaan are corpses. Those that are sleeping they can

wake up, but how can a corpse wake up?

 

Earning money is not in our sphere of control, but day and night we

are engaged in this effort. Worshipping (devotion, remembrance,

chanting, meditation, reading etc.) is in our sphere of control but

that is not being done! Working the entire life and thereafter

earning lakh rupees is also not in our sphere of control; but lakh-

three lakh Divine Name (God's name) can be recited daily. That thing

which is going to go with us is not being accumulated, but that

thing which will remain here itself, that alone we are hoarding!

 

Charity is done only with that money which is earned ethically.

Wells made with money earned via unjust means is not of use to

anyone; just like `Modi's well' in Bikaner.

 

From " Gyaan ke Deep Jale " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, pg 150-

151.

 

Ram Ram

 

-----------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.

2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..

3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.

5. Focus on subject at hand only.

6. Do not include links to the other sites.

7. Do not include your personal information (Ph #, address etc).

8. Do not personalize message

9. All responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting.

11. Take into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-

sectarian audience. i.e. limit the use to Sanskrit words only.

Provide English word bracketed.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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