Guest guest Posted August 19, 2008 Report Share Posted August 19, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram Due to significant back log in questions, we are releasing new questions, but will still continue the discussion on Discipline of Actionlessness From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram -- :Shree Hari: Ram Ram In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant Sarvottam Varma ----------------------------- 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2008 Report Share Posted August 21, 2008 :Shree Hari: Ram Ram QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma ==================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2008 Report Share Posted August 22, 2008 :Shree Hari: Ram Ram QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma ==================================================================== NEW POSTING Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== PREVIOUS POSTING (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2008 Report Share Posted August 23, 2008 :Shree Hari: Ram Ram QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma ==================================================================== NEW POSTING Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== PREVIOUS POSTING Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 Re: Do We Attain What is Already Attained ? :Shree Hari: Ram Ram QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma ==================================================================== NEW POSTING Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== PREVIOUS POSTING Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 :Shree Hari: Ram Ram QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma ==================================================================== NEW POSTING Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B =================================================================== PREVIOUS POSTING Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 NEW POSTING QUESTION: IN ENGLISH Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack of understanding, and that which is ever attained to want to attain it is deceit. That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is what does it mean to have our sight there? Who will have their sight in that direction? How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a solution. Vineet Sarvottam =================================================================== PREVIOUS POSTING QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2008 Report Share Posted August 25, 2008 QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions that have been asked are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack in understanding, and that which is ever attained, to want to attain it, is deceit. That which is ever attained, is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is - 1) What does it mean to have our sight there? 2) Who will have their sight there ? 3) How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a answer. Vineet Sarvottam =================================================================== NEW POSTING That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to " go there " . Perfect recap ! I would only put " go there " since this cannot have the same cannotation of our daily usage. Remember, || Na tatra chakshurgacchati na vaggacchati no manah || None of the faculties under your control can ever enter there, be it the body organs, or the senses, or the mind, or the intellect, or anything else that you think you can manipulate for the simple reason that we cannot cognize anything unless a change is super- imposed on everything. Accordingly, all our faculties are built around the change alone; the change perceived within them due to their limitations. For example, our visual faculty is designed to receive electro-magentic waves of certain frequencies. We all know that electro-magnetic frequencies are filling our environment in all ranges, but we can see only certain colors - violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red. We cannot perceive ultra-violet and infra-red rays. Same way, each set of brain cells can receive only certain range of frequencies which distinguish colors as such within themselves. So is our audio system, we cannot hear sub-sonic and super-sonic sounds that surpass our limitations. Therefore, it is futile to imagine to " go to the unlimmitted " depending thoroughly on " the limited faculties " . 1. What does it mean to have our sight there? This is an excellent distillation of our ignorance. Understanding that The Changeless cannot be perceived by the faculties that insist on changes, the only way " to have our sight there " is to not have one! || Yada panchavatishthante gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taam aahuh paramaam gatim || " Our sight is there " when all our faculties - body, senses, mind and even intellect, come to a halt! That state is the Supreme State, says Yama. In other words, when our association transcends all our activities within our cognition, our sight can possible be there. The true silence is not terminating our faculties physically, but to let them " be " rather than craving to " have " . 2. Who will have their sight in that direction? One who understands a reason for one's miseries would definitely attempt to turn toward the solution even if it is a potential one. Any surviving being is programmed to carry on this feat. A seeker is also a survivor, at least to start with. The only difference is - a spiritual seeker perpetually penetrates into the apparent reason to its roots to see that he himself is the true cause for all his miseries and he himself is the true hurdle for overcoming his miseries as well. Therefore, he is bound to turn " his sight " away from the true cause for his miseries - the ego, the identities, the ownerships, toward a potential solution which is deviod of all these limitations. 3. How can the sight be made to go in that direction? This question could be qualified further, " What is keeping our sight away from this direction? " Definitely, our urge " to live " , Projection, protection and propagation of ego, identities and ownerships. Then the question, " How can the sight be made to go in that direction? " is self-evident. The sight automatically turns toward The Eternity by learning " to die " , Rejection, reduction and removal of ego, identities and ownerships. Learning " to be " rather than " to have " . Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Dear spiritual Brothers and Sisters, God is formless and ineffable and to describe God even words recoil. He lives within you and you live within Him like billions of living cells live within you and you live within the billions of cells. We each of us (including all animate and inanimate life/things) are all living cell of God. Maya creates a golden dazzling disc and hides God from us even though we live within Him. Thus the greatest miracle Maya (cosmic delusion) creates is that we search for God every where though He is within us as our guide, friend and philosopher. God is the first Guru (preceptor) and Prakrti- the divine Nature- our supreme Mother is the perfect Guru and guides us through her Rta (cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order). These Rts (cosmic laws) even the blind person can read and follow. A large number of Rta are mentioned in Vedas. The entire social, moral and physical disorder starts when we do not follow the guidelines given by God living within us and Rta laid down by the divine Nature known as Aditi- infinite, Daivi-divine and Devaki-mother of all beings of light (devas/devis) like Usha, Prithvi, Agni, Indraith kind regards, P.K.Sabhlok =================================================================== PREVIOUS POSTING QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2008 Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions that have been asked are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack in understanding, and that which is ever attained, to want to attain it, is deceit. That which is ever attained, is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is - 1) What does it mean to have our sight there? 2) Who will have their sight there ? 3) How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a answer. Vineet Sarvottam =========================================================== NEW POSTING Jai Shree Krishna I am relieved to see the question getting reframed. Certainly the advice of Jee Jee Shashikalaji has worked. Indeed, detergent prices are soaring. There is one " sher " (a two liner) Dil ke aaine main hai, tasveere yaar, jab jara gardan jhukaai dekh lee. The Beloved (Paramatma) is right inside your heart, simply bow your head and see Him. The lady who lost the gold chain in fact need only to tilt her head down, she will find the gold chain. That God is inside you, in your heart is a proven fact. (Gita 18:61). Now " bowing " your head means surrender. It can also mean throwing that thing which makes your head straight/swollen (Ego) into the dust bin. Be ego less. With Ego, your mind, intellect, sense organs, organs of action and your body all will rest where they actually should - in the dust bin. You alone, Self then shall " sight " the Paramatma - effortlessly. So either surrender (Gita 18:66 read with 7:14) or disconnect with world by becoming egoless. Choose Vineetji - what ever is convenient to you. Rajendra J Bohra Narayana Narayana -------------------------- Jai Hanuman Bhaiyyaji ! What a question? Typical question Jee ! Who will sight !! Who will see the gold chain? Who ever has lost it Jee, will have to see ! Simple common sense Jee ! Who is suffering ? Who is not peaceful? Jeeva or somebody else? Who ever who needs peace will sight that, Jee. So Brahmaji will not come to help you Jee. You have lost that gold chain Jee. Only your " self " will have to help your " self " Jee! Bhaiyyaji, my advice is that do not go into the chakkar (web) of this " sight " at all Jee. They are high level fundas Jee. Simply close your eyes, Jee. So that the world is out of your focus Jee. You will find the gold chain, Bhaiyya. Simply close your eyes, then what will open is your inner eye, and your job will be done. Closing your eyes means " cut off " from the world. Disconnect, Jee! Laali Laali sab kahe , sabke palle laal ! Gaanth khol dekhe nahin , taate phire kangaal !! Every body says I want diamond, I want diamond . The diamond is in the person of every body. No body ( Alas ! No body searches the self) opens the knot of pocket, and instead keeps loitering in the world, Penniless like a beggar - (again crying I want diamond, I want diamond) !! That " knot " , that " gaanth " is your union with inert, with world. Just open it, just separate the two ropes. You are home, Bhaiyyaji. Read Ramayan - Jad chetan ki granthi - the knot of sentient and inert ! Open that knot Jee. Don't ask again, who will open that, Jee. Clear, Jee ? Brother, Jee !! Namaste Jee ! Shashikala -------------------------- PREVIOUS POSTING That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to " go there " . Perfect recap ! I would only put " go there " since this cannot have the same cannotation of our daily usage. Remember, || Na tatra chakshurgacchati na vaggacchati no manah || None of the faculties under your control can ever enter there, be it the body organs, or the senses, or the mind, or the intellect, or anything else that you think you can manipulate for the simple reason that we cannot cognize anything unless a change is super- imposed on everything. Accordingly, all our faculties are built around the change alone; the change perceived within them due to their limitations. For example, our visual faculty is designed to receive electro-magentic waves of certain frequencies. We all know that electro-magnetic frequencies are filling our environment in all ranges, but we can see only certain colors - violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red. We cannot perceive ultra-violet and infra-red rays. Same way, each set of brain cells can receive only certain range of frequencies which distinguish colors as such within themselves. So is our audio system, we cannot hear sub-sonic and super-sonic sounds that surpass our limitations. Therefore, it is futile to imagine to " go to the unlimmitted " depending thoroughly on " the limited faculties " . 1. What does it mean to have our sight there? This is an excellent distillation of our ignorance. Understanding that The Changeless cannot be perceived by the faculties that insist on changes, the only way " to have our sight there " is to not have one! || Yada panchavatishthante gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taam aahuh paramaam gatim || " Our sight is there " when all our faculties - body, senses, mind and even intellect, come to a halt! That state is the Supreme State, says Yama. In other words, when our association transcends all our activities within our cognition, our sight can possible be there. The true silence is not terminating our faculties physically, but to let them " be " rather than craving to " have " . 2. Who will have their sight in that direction? One who understands a reason for one's miseries would definitely attempt to turn toward the solution even if it is a potential one. Any surviving being is programmed to carry on this feat. A seeker is also a survivor, at least to start with. The only difference is - a spiritual seeker perpetually penetrates into the apparent reason to its roots to see that he himself is the true cause for all his miseries and he himself is the true hurdle for overcoming his miseries as well. Therefore, he is bound to turn " his sight " away from the true cause for his miseries - the ego, the identities, the ownerships, toward a potential solution which is deviod of all these limitations. 3. How can the sight be made to go in that direction? This question could be qualified further, " What is keeping our sight away from this direction? " Definitely, our urge " to live " , Projection, protection and propagation of ego, identities and ownerships. Then the question, " How can the sight be made to go in that direction? " is self-evident. The sight automatically turns toward The Eternity by learning " to die " , Rejection, reduction and removal of ego, identities and ownerships. Learning " to be " rather than " to have " . Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Dear spiritual Brothers and Sisters, God is formless and ineffable and to describe God even words recoil. He lives within you and you live within Him like billions of living cells live within you and you live within the billions of cells. We each of us (including all animate and inanimate life/things) are all living cell of God. Maya creates a golden dazzling disc and hides God from us even though we live within Him. Thus the greatest miracle Maya (cosmic delusion) creates is that we search for God every where though He is within us as our guide, friend and philosopher. God is the first Guru (preceptor) and Prakrti- the divine Nature- our supreme Mother is the perfect Guru and guides us through her Rta (cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order). These Rts (cosmic laws) even the blind person can read and follow. A large number of Rta are mentioned in Vedas. The entire social, moral and physical disorder starts when we do not follow the guidelines given by God living within us and Rta laid down by the divine Nature known as Aditi- infinite, Daivi-divine and Devaki-mother of all beings of light (devas/devis) like Usha, Prithvi, Agni, Indraith kind regards, P.K.Sabhlok =================================================================== QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2008 Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions that have been asked are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack in understanding, and that which is ever attained, to want to attain it, is deceit. That which is ever attained, is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is - 1) What does it mean to have our sight there? 2) Who will have their sight there ? 3) How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a answer. Vineet Sarvottam =========================================================== NEW POSTING Hari Om Q1 What does it mean to have our sight there. Ans to realise/remember/ to experience His presence in you. Q2 Who will have their sight there? Ans What is this question? Paramatma is not going to come and have sight there in your place, nor He will send any messenger to catch hold of your eyes and turn them using some machine..Nor any neighbor or relative will come to help you.. Body is inert. World itself is entangled. Who remained? Jeeva ! You yourself ! !. " Self " not " non self " . Ego, mind, intellect, body they are " non self " . Hence you - yourself. Who did you think will come to your rescue ? Q3- How can the sight be made to go there? Ans By making the sight withdrawn from the world. Sight's role ends there. The sight does not then will have to be made to go there or anywhere ? The element will come before the sight automatically. You have to just Stay Put- thereafter. Just be Silent , in Repose ! There is no need to do anything thereafter. Just withdraw your sight from the world- that is all you have to. Rest is actionless. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - -Shree Hari- I wish to dwell a little on Rajendraji comments. If one has a great desire for the Divine truth if only originating from the mind of the curious thinker, but an honest thinker who keeps her/his pre-conceived ideas out of the process. Allowing Divine Lord to help in the process, trusting in the outcome, regardless of what the Ego may say or do, trust, trust. Slowly the Ego gets broken, with each break the divine within shines a little more, a little more. Like cracks in shell that covers your spiritual heart. You become more and more humble and loving, you do not look away, when a tortured soul with cerebral palsy drooling, searches out your eyes, that soul wants contact, the divine within looks out with compassion, maybe for the first time that soul may see GOD in the eyes of stranger. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) -------------------------------- PREVIOUS POSTING Jai Shree Krishna I am relieved to see the question getting reframed. Certainly the advice of Jee Jee Shashikalaji has worked. Indeed, detergent prices are soaring. There is one " sher " (a two liner) Dil ke aaine main hai, tasveere yaar, jab jara gardan jhukaai dekh lee. The Beloved (Paramatma) is right inside your heart, simply bow your head and see Him. The lady who lost the gold chain in fact need only to tilt her head down, she will find the gold chain. That God is inside you, in your heart is a proven fact. (Gita 18:61). Now " bowing " your head means surrender. It can also mean throwing that thing which makes your head straight/swollen (Ego) into the dust bin. Be ego less. With Ego, your mind, intellect, sense organs, organs of action and your body all will rest where they actually should - in the dust bin. You alone, Self then shall " sight " the Paramatma - effortlessly. So either surrender (Gita 18:66 read with 7:14) or disconnect with world by becoming egoless. Choose Vineetji - what ever is convenient to you. Rajendra J Bohra Narayana Narayana -------------------------- Jai Hanuman Bhaiyyaji ! What a question? Typical question Jee ! Who will sight !! Who will see the gold chain? Who ever has lost it Jee, will have to see ! Simple common sense Jee ! Who is suffering ? Who is not peaceful? Jeeva or somebody else? Who ever who needs peace will sight that, Jee. So Brahmaji will not come to help you Jee. You have lost that gold chain Jee. Only your " self " will have to help your " self " Jee! Bhaiyyaji, my advice is that do not go into the chakkar (web) of this " sight " at all Jee. They are high level fundas Jee. Simply close your eyes, Jee. So that the world is out of your focus Jee. You will find the gold chain, Bhaiyya. Simply close your eyes, then what will open is your inner eye, and your job will be done. Closing your eyes means " cut off " from the world. Disconnect, Jee! Laali Laali sab kahe , sabke palle laal ! Gaanth khol dekhe nahin , taate phire kangaal !! Every body says I want diamond, I want diamond . The diamond is in the person of every body. No body ( Alas ! No body searches the self) opens the knot of pocket, and instead keeps loitering in the world, Penniless like a beggar - (again crying I want diamond, I want diamond) !! That " knot " , that " gaanth " is your union with inert, with world. Just open it, just separate the two ropes. You are home, Bhaiyyaji. Read Ramayan - Jad chetan ki granthi - the knot of sentient and inert ! Open that knot Jee. Don't ask again, who will open that, Jee. Clear, Jee ? Brother, Jee !! Namaste Jee ! Shashikala -------------------------- That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to " go there " . Perfect recap ! I would only put " go there " since this cannot have the same cannotation of our daily usage. Remember, || Na tatra chakshurgacchati na vaggacchati no manah || None of the faculties under your control can ever enter there, be it the body organs, or the senses, or the mind, or the intellect, or anything else that you think you can manipulate for the simple reason that we cannot cognize anything unless a change is super- imposed on everything. Accordingly, all our faculties are built around the change alone; the change perceived within them due to their limitations. For example, our visual faculty is designed to receive electro-magentic waves of certain frequencies. We all know that electro-magnetic frequencies are filling our environment in all ranges, but we can see only certain colors - violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red. We cannot perceive ultra-violet and infra-red rays. Same way, each set of brain cells can receive only certain range of frequencies which distinguish colors as such within themselves. So is our audio system, we cannot hear sub-sonic and super-sonic sounds that surpass our limitations. Therefore, it is futile to imagine to " go to the unlimmitted " depending thoroughly on " the limited faculties " . 1. What does it mean to have our sight there? This is an excellent distillation of our ignorance. Understanding that The Changeless cannot be perceived by the faculties that insist on changes, the only way " to have our sight there " is to not have one! || Yada panchavatishthante gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taam aahuh paramaam gatim || " Our sight is there " when all our faculties - body, senses, mind and even intellect, come to a halt! That state is the Supreme State, says Yama. In other words, when our association transcends all our activities within our cognition, our sight can possible be there. The true silence is not terminating our faculties physically, but to let them " be " rather than craving to " have " . 2. Who will have their sight in that direction? One who understands a reason for one's miseries would definitely attempt to turn toward the solution even if it is a potential one. Any surviving being is programmed to carry on this feat. A seeker is also a survivor, at least to start with. The only difference is - a spiritual seeker perpetually penetrates into the apparent reason to its roots to see that he himself is the true cause for all his miseries and he himself is the true hurdle for overcoming his miseries as well. Therefore, he is bound to turn " his sight " away from the true cause for his miseries - the ego, the identities, the ownerships, toward a potential solution which is deviod of all these limitations. 3. How can the sight be made to go in that direction? This question could be qualified further, " What is keeping our sight away from this direction? " Definitely, our urge " to live " , Projection, protection and propagation of ego, identities and ownerships. Then the question, " How can the sight be made to go in that direction? " is self-evident. The sight automatically turns toward The Eternity by learning " to die " , Rejection, reduction and removal of ego, identities and ownerships. Learning " to be " rather than " to have " . Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Dear spiritual Brothers and Sisters, God is formless and ineffable and to describe God even words recoil. He lives within you and you live within Him like billions of living cells live within you and you live within the billions of cells. We each of us (including all animate and inanimate life/things) are all living cell of God. Maya creates a golden dazzling disc and hides God from us even though we live within Him. Thus the greatest miracle Maya (cosmic delusion) creates is that we search for God every where though He is within us as our guide, friend and philosopher. God is the first Guru (preceptor) and Prakrti- the divine Nature- our supreme Mother is the perfect Guru and guides us through her Rta (cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order). These Rts (cosmic laws) even the blind person can read and follow. A large number of Rta are mentioned in Vedas. The entire social, moral and physical disorder starts when we do not follow the guidelines given by God living within us and Rta laid down by the divine Nature known as Aditi- infinite, Daivi-divine and Devaki-mother of all beings of light (devas/devis) like Usha, Prithvi, Agni, Indraith kind regards, P.K.Sabhlok =================================================================== QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions that have been asked are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack in understanding, and that which is ever attained, to want to attain it, is deceit. That which is ever attained, is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is - 1) What does it mean to have our sight there? 2) Who will have their sight there ? 3) How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a answer. Vineet Sarvottam =========================================================== NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram All respondent - brothers and sister Shashikalaji have been generous ! All my questions are unanswered. My request was that - these questions that were put forth in front of you, they were not simply for the purpose of knowing. This is my personal distress, that I have been unable to comprehend a simple, straight-forward point, which you all have understood. Shraddhey Swamiji had said that there is nothing that can be more easier than this - Paramaatmaa is already ever-attained from the very beginning. This itself is my distress. When Paramaatmaa is already attained, then for the purpose of attaining, does He become unattained as Swamiji has often said - that Paramaatmaa does not have the strength to distance Himself from us. My distress is that how do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him. I do not know the way, therefore I have started troubling you all, otherwise what distress could there be? Gita-talk moderator, this is not just my own distress, there must be many others like me that have this question, that are aimlessly wandering and lost. You all please explain, that in this state, what should I do? My humble pranaams to all, Sarvottam Shree Hari Ram Ram Sabhi utterdaataa udaarmanaa bandhuo evam bahen Shashikalaji ko ! mere sabhi prashna anutterit hai. Meraa anurodh hai ki maatre jaanne ke liye meine ye prashna aapke samaksh nahin rakhe hai, ye meir kathinaayi hai, meri aapdaa hai ki mein ek seedhee si baat nahin samajh sak rahaa jo aap sabhi samajh chuke hai. Shraddhey Swamiji ne kahaa thaa ki isse saral kuch ho hi nahin saktaa kyonki Paramaatmaa to pahale se hi praapt hai. Bas yahin meri aapadaa hai. Jab Paramaatmaa praapt hai, toh praapt karneke liye hi Parmaatmaa apraapt ho jaayenge jo Swamiji kahete rahe ki Paramaatmaa ki dum nahin ki hamse door ho jaaye. Meri yahin aapdaa hai ki kaiseker Paramaatmaa ko apraapt kar loon aur fir kuch bhi karke praapt karoon . Mujhe raah nahin soojhti isliye aap sabko pareshaan karne lagaa varnaa koyi aapdaa hoti hi kyon ? Shri samvayakji, yeh meri hi vyaktigat aapdaa nahin hai anek mere sam ananboojhe prashna lekar bhatakane waale anek honge. Aap sabhi sujhaaye ki is sthithi mein hum kyaa kare ? Sabhi ko vinamre pranaam sahit Sarvottam ============================================================ PREVIOUS POSTING Hari Om Q1 What does it mean to have our sight there. Ans to realise/remember/ to experience His presence in you. Q2 Who will have their sight there? Ans What is this question? Paramatma is not going to come and have sight there in your place, nor He will send any messenger to catch hold of your eyes and turn them using some machine..Nor any neighbor or relative will come to help you.. Body is inert. World itself is entangled. Who remained? Jeeva ! You yourself ! !. " Self " not " non self " . Ego, mind, intellect, body they are " non self " . Hence you - yourself. Who did you think will come to your rescue ? Q3- How can the sight be made to go there? Ans By making the sight withdrawn from the world. Sight's role ends there. The sight does not then will have to be made to go there or anywhere ? The element will come before the sight automatically. You have to just Stay Put- thereafter. Just be Silent , in Repose ! There is no need to do anything thereafter. Just withdraw your sight from the world- that is all you have to. Rest is actionless. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - -Shree Hari- I wish to dwell a little on Rajendraji comments. If one has a great desire for the Divine truth if only originating from the mind of the curious thinker, but an honest thinker who keeps her/his pre-conceived ideas out of the process. Allowing Divine Lord to help in the process, trusting in the outcome, regardless of what the Ego may say or do, trust, trust. Slowly the Ego gets broken, with each break the divine within shines a little more, a little more. Like cracks in shell that covers your spiritual heart. You become more and more humble and loving, you do not look away, when a tortured soul with cerebral palsy drooling, searches out your eyes, that soul wants contact, the divine within looks out with compassion, maybe for the first time that soul may see GOD in the eyes of stranger. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) -------------------------------- Jai Shree Krishna I am relieved to see the question getting reframed. Certainly the advice of Jee Jee Shashikalaji has worked. Indeed, detergent prices are soaring. There is one " sher " (a two liner) Dil ke aaine main hai, tasveere yaar, jab jara gardan jhukaai dekh lee. The Beloved (Paramatma) is right inside your heart, simply bow your head and see Him. The lady who lost the gold chain in fact need only to tilt her head down, she will find the gold chain. That God is inside you, in your heart is a proven fact. (Gita 18:61). Now " bowing " your head means surrender. It can also mean throwing that thing which makes your head straight/swollen (Ego) into the dust bin. Be ego less. With Ego, your mind, intellect, sense organs, organs of action and your body all will rest where they actually should - in the dust bin. You alone, Self then shall " sight " the Paramatma - effortlessly. So either surrender (Gita 18:66 read with 7:14) or disconnect with world by becoming egoless. Choose Vineetji - what ever is convenient to you. Rajendra J Bohra Narayana Narayana -------------------------- Jai Hanuman Bhaiyyaji ! What a question? Typical question Jee ! Who will sight !! Who will see the gold chain? Who ever has lost it Jee, will have to see ! Simple common sense Jee ! Who is suffering ? Who is not peaceful? Jeeva or somebody else? Who ever who needs peace will sight that, Jee. So Brahmaji will not come to help you Jee. You have lost that gold chain Jee. Only your " self " will have to help your " self " Jee! Bhaiyyaji, my advice is that do not go into the chakkar (web) of this " sight " at all Jee. They are high level fundas Jee. Simply close your eyes, Jee. So that the world is out of your focus Jee. You will find the gold chain, Bhaiyya. Simply close your eyes, then what will open is your inner eye, and your job will be done. Closing your eyes means " cut off " from the world. Disconnect, Jee! Laali Laali sab kahe , sabke palle laal ! Gaanth khol dekhe nahin , taate phire kangaal !! Every body says I want diamond, I want diamond . The diamond is in the person of every body. No body ( Alas ! No body searches the self) opens the knot of pocket, and instead keeps loitering in the world, Penniless like a beggar - (again crying I want diamond, I want diamond) !! That " knot " , that " gaanth " is your union with inert, with world. Just open it, just separate the two ropes. You are home, Bhaiyyaji. Read Ramayan - Jad chetan ki granthi - the knot of sentient and inert ! Open that knot Jee. Don't ask again, who will open that, Jee. Clear, Jee ? Brother, Jee !! Namaste Jee ! Shashikala -------------------------- That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to " go there " . Perfect recap ! I would only put " go there " since this cannot have the same cannotation of our daily usage. Remember, || Na tatra chakshurgacchati na vaggacchati no manah || None of the faculties under your control can ever enter there, be it the body organs, or the senses, or the mind, or the intellect, or anything else that you think you can manipulate for the simple reason that we cannot cognize anything unless a change is super- imposed on everything. Accordingly, all our faculties are built around the change alone; the change perceived within them due to their limitations. For example, our visual faculty is designed to receive electro-magentic waves of certain frequencies. We all know that electro-magnetic frequencies are filling our environment in all ranges, but we can see only certain colors - violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red. We cannot perceive ultra-violet and infra-red rays. Same way, each set of brain cells can receive only certain range of frequencies which distinguish colors as such within themselves. So is our audio system, we cannot hear sub-sonic and super-sonic sounds that surpass our limitations. Therefore, it is futile to imagine to " go to the unlimmitted " depending thoroughly on " the limited faculties " . 1. What does it mean to have our sight there? This is an excellent distillation of our ignorance. Understanding that The Changeless cannot be perceived by the faculties that insist on changes, the only way " to have our sight there " is to not have one! || Yada panchavatishthante gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taam aahuh paramaam gatim || " Our sight is there " when all our faculties - body, senses, mind and even intellect, come to a halt! That state is the Supreme State, says Yama. In other words, when our association transcends all our activities within our cognition, our sight can possible be there. The true silence is not terminating our faculties physically, but to let them " be " rather than craving to " have " . 2. Who will have their sight in that direction? One who understands a reason for one's miseries would definitely attempt to turn toward the solution even if it is a potential one. Any surviving being is programmed to carry on this feat. A seeker is also a survivor, at least to start with. The only difference is - a spiritual seeker perpetually penetrates into the apparent reason to its roots to see that he himself is the true cause for all his miseries and he himself is the true hurdle for overcoming his miseries as well. Therefore, he is bound to turn " his sight " away from the true cause for his miseries - the ego, the identities, the ownerships, toward a potential solution which is deviod of all these limitations. 3. How can the sight be made to go in that direction? This question could be qualified further, " What is keeping our sight away from this direction? " Definitely, our urge " to live " , Projection, protection and propagation of ego, identities and ownerships. Then the question, " How can the sight be made to go in that direction? " is self-evident. The sight automatically turns toward The Eternity by learning " to die " , Rejection, reduction and removal of ego, identities and ownerships. Learning " to be " rather than " to have " . Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Dear spiritual Brothers and Sisters, God is formless and ineffable and to describe God even words recoil. He lives within you and you live within Him like billions of living cells live within you and you live within the billions of cells. We each of us (including all animate and inanimate life/things) are all living cell of God. Maya creates a golden dazzling disc and hides God from us even though we live within Him. Thus the greatest miracle Maya (cosmic delusion) creates is that we search for God every where though He is within us as our guide, friend and philosopher. God is the first Guru (preceptor) and Prakrti- the divine Nature- our supreme Mother is the perfect Guru and guides us through her Rta (cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order). These Rts (cosmic laws) even the blind person can read and follow. A large number of Rta are mentioned in Vedas. The entire social, moral and physical disorder starts when we do not follow the guidelines given by God living within us and Rta laid down by the divine Nature known as Aditi- infinite, Daivi-divine and Devaki-mother of all beings of light (devas/devis) like Usha, Prithvi, Agni, Indraith kind regards, P.K.Sabhlok =================================================================== QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 NEW POSTING: Shree Hari Ram Ram All respondent - brothers and sister Shashikalaji have been generous ! All my questions are unanswered. My request was that - these questions that were put forth in front of you, they were not simply for the purpose of knowing. This is my personal distress, that I have been unable to comprehend a simple, straight-forward point, which you all have understood. Shraddhey Swamiji had said that there is nothing that can be more easier than this - Paramaatmaa is already ever-attained from the very beginning. This itself is my distress. When Paramaatmaa is already attained, then for the purpose of attaining, does He become unattained as Swamiji has often said - that Paramaatmaa does not have the strength to distance Himself from us. QUESTION: My distress is that how do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him? I do not know the way, therefore I have started troubling you all, otherwise what distress could there be? Gita-talk moderator, this is not just my own distress, there must be many others like me that have this question, that are aimlessly wandering and lost. You all please explain, that in this state, what should I do? My humble pranaams to all, Sarvottam IN HINDI Shree Hari Ram Ram Sabhi utterdaataa udaarmanaa bandhuo evam bahen Shashikalaji ko ! mere sabhi prashna anutterit hai. Meraa anurodh hai ki maatre jaanne ke liye meine ye prashna aapke samaksh nahin rakhe hai, ye meir kathinaayi hai, meri aapdaa hai ki mein ek seedhee si baat nahin samajh sak rahaa jo aap sabhi samajh chuke hai. Shraddhey Swamiji ne kahaa thaa ki isse saral kuch ho hi nahin saktaa kyonki Paramaatmaa to pahale se hi praapt hai. Bas yahin meri aapadaa hai. Jab Paramaatmaa praapt hai, toh praapt karneke liye hi Parmaatmaa apraapt ho jaayenge jo Swamiji kahete rahe ki Paramaatmaa ki dum nahin ki hamse door ho jaaye. Meri yahin aapdaa hai ki kaiseker Paramaatmaa ko apraapt kar loon aur fir kuch bhi karke praapt karoon . Mujhe raah nahin soojhti isliye aap sabko pareshaan karne lagaa varnaa koyi aapdaa hoti hi kyon ? Shri samvayakji, yeh meri hi vyaktigat aapdaa nahin hai anek mere sam ananboojhe prashna lekar bhatakane waale anek honge. Aap sabhi sujhaaye ki is sthithi mein hum kyaa kare ? Sabhi ko vinamre pranaam sahit Sarvottam -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Namaste Bhaiyya Shree Jee, you appear to be quite anxious to meet Daddy. Remain so Bhaiyya- " Kabhi to Deendayal ke bhanak padegi kaan " ( He will have to lend His ears to you). In the end all have to depend upon His grace only. " Jab tujhase na sulajhe tere ulajhe hue dhandhe, Bhagwan ke insaaf pe sab chhod de Bande! Khud hi teri mushkil ko woh asaan karega, jo tu nahin kar paaya woh Bhagwaan karega " (When you are not able to solve your problems, it is better to leave that to the grace and justice of Bhagwaan. He Himself will solve your problem . What you have not been able to do, Bhagwaan will do) Have that trust, Bhaiyya Shree on that Deendayal. No one has ever come back from His regime empty handed. " Hum tumhe jaane tum nahin jaano, aisa kabhi na ho sakta-Pita apne Baalak se bichhad ke sukh se kabhi naa so sakta " ( That we know Him and He does not know us- it can never happen. No father can sleep peacefully , remaining away from His son) I pray I too have similar anxiety (vyaakulata) like you for Papa the Great. Swamiji was right, Papa can not distance Himself away from us. He has no powers to do that. He will dance on your fingers, Bhaiyya Shree ! In this life itself ! ! Where can He run away ? From you ?? No He can't. When you meet with Him, recommend for me also, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - -Shree Hari- I had a thought that may help Vineetji to focus his understanding. There is a medical condition, whereby a person is totally blind, often caused by trauma. The doctors and experts find that his eyes are perfect, his brain is undamaged, he can see, but; his mind cannot. The cure is for him to understand that he is not blind, (the correct therapy is required). It is like that you understand . With Respect and Divine Love , Mike (Mike Keenor) ------------------------------ PREVIOUS QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions that have been asked are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack in understanding, and that which is ever attained, to want to attain it, is deceit. That which is ever attained, is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is - 1) What does it mean to have our sight there? 2) Who will have their sight there ? 3) How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a answer. Vineet Sarvottam =========================================================== PREVIOUS POSTING Hari Om Q1 What does it mean to have our sight there. Ans to realise/remember/ to experience His presence in you. Q2 Who will have their sight there? Ans What is this question? Paramatma is not going to come and have sight there in your place, nor He will send any messenger to catch hold of your eyes and turn them using some machine..Nor any neighbor or relative will come to help you.. Body is inert. World itself is entangled. Who remained? Jeeva ! You yourself ! !. " Self " not " non self " . Ego, mind, intellect, body they are " non self " . Hence you - yourself. Who did you think will come to your rescue ? Q3- How can the sight be made to go there? Ans By making the sight withdrawn from the world. Sight's role ends there. The sight does not then will have to be made to go there or anywhere ? The element will come before the sight automatically. You have to just Stay Put- thereafter. Just be Silent , in Repose ! There is no need to do anything thereafter. Just withdraw your sight from the world- that is all you have to. Rest is actionless. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - -Shree Hari- I wish to dwell a little on Rajendraji comments. If one has a great desire for the Divine truth if only originating from the mind of the curious thinker, but an honest thinker who keeps her/his pre-conceived ideas out of the process. Allowing Divine Lord to help in the process, trusting in the outcome, regardless of what the Ego may say or do, trust, trust. Slowly the Ego gets broken, with each break the divine within shines a little more, a little more. Like cracks in shell that covers your spiritual heart. You become more and more humble and loving, you do not look away, when a tortured soul with cerebral palsy drooling, searches out your eyes, that soul wants contact, the divine within looks out with compassion, maybe for the first time that soul may see GOD in the eyes of stranger. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) -------------------------------- Jai Shree Krishna I am relieved to see the question getting reframed. Certainly the advice of Jee Jee Shashikalaji has worked. Indeed, detergent prices are soaring. There is one " sher " (a two liner) Dil ke aaine main hai, tasveere yaar, jab jara gardan jhukaai dekh lee. The Beloved (Paramatma) is right inside your heart, simply bow your head and see Him. The lady who lost the gold chain in fact need only to tilt her head down, she will find the gold chain. That God is inside you, in your heart is a proven fact. (Gita 18:61). Now " bowing " your head means surrender. It can also mean throwing that thing which makes your head straight/swollen (Ego) into the dust bin. Be ego less. With Ego, your mind, intellect, sense organs, organs of action and your body all will rest where they actually should - in the dust bin. You alone, Self then shall " sight " the Paramatma - effortlessly. So either surrender (Gita 18:66 read with 7:14) or disconnect with world by becoming egoless. Choose Vineetji - what ever is convenient to you. Rajendra J Bohra Narayana Narayana -------------------------- Jai Hanuman Bhaiyyaji ! What a question? Typical question Jee ! Who will sight !! Who will see the gold chain? Who ever has lost it Jee, will have to see ! Simple common sense Jee ! Who is suffering ? Who is not peaceful? Jeeva or somebody else? Who ever who needs peace will sight that, Jee. So Brahmaji will not come to help you Jee. You have lost that gold chain Jee. Only your " self " will have to help your " self " Jee! Bhaiyyaji, my advice is that do not go into the chakkar (web) of this " sight " at all Jee. They are high level fundas Jee. Simply close your eyes, Jee. So that the world is out of your focus Jee. You will find the gold chain, Bhaiyya. Simply close your eyes, then what will open is your inner eye, and your job will be done. Closing your eyes means " cut off " from the world. Disconnect, Jee! Laali Laali sab kahe , sabke palle laal ! Gaanth khol dekhe nahin , taate phire kangaal !! Every body says I want diamond, I want diamond . The diamond is in the person of every body. No body ( Alas ! No body searches the self) opens the knot of pocket, and instead keeps loitering in the world, Penniless like a beggar - (again crying I want diamond, I want diamond) !! That " knot " , that " gaanth " is your union with inert, with world. Just open it, just separate the two ropes. You are home, Bhaiyyaji. Read Ramayan - Jad chetan ki granthi - the knot of sentient and inert ! Open that knot Jee. Don't ask again, who will open that, Jee. Clear, Jee ? Brother, Jee !! Namaste Jee ! Shashikala -------------------------- That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to " go there " . Perfect recap ! I would only put " go there " since this cannot have the same cannotation of our daily usage. Remember, || Na tatra chakshurgacchati na vaggacchati no manah || None of the faculties under your control can ever enter there, be it the body organs, or the senses, or the mind, or the intellect, or anything else that you think you can manipulate for the simple reason that we cannot cognize anything unless a change is super- imposed on everything. Accordingly, all our faculties are built around the change alone; the change perceived within them due to their limitations. For example, our visual faculty is designed to receive electro-magentic waves of certain frequencies. We all know that electro-magnetic frequencies are filling our environment in all ranges, but we can see only certain colors - violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red. We cannot perceive ultra-violet and infra-red rays. Same way, each set of brain cells can receive only certain range of frequencies which distinguish colors as such within themselves. So is our audio system, we cannot hear sub-sonic and super-sonic sounds that surpass our limitations. Therefore, it is futile to imagine to " go to the unlimmitted " depending thoroughly on " the limited faculties " . 1. What does it mean to have our sight there? This is an excellent distillation of our ignorance. Understanding that The Changeless cannot be perceived by the faculties that insist on changes, the only way " to have our sight there " is to not have one! || Yada panchavatishthante gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taam aahuh paramaam gatim || " Our sight is there " when all our faculties - body, senses, mind and even intellect, come to a halt! That state is the Supreme State, says Yama. In other words, when our association transcends all our activities within our cognition, our sight can possible be there. The true silence is not terminating our faculties physically, but to let them " be " rather than craving to " have " . 2. Who will have their sight in that direction? One who understands a reason for one's miseries would definitely attempt to turn toward the solution even if it is a potential one. Any surviving being is programmed to carry on this feat. A seeker is also a survivor, at least to start with. The only difference is - a spiritual seeker perpetually penetrates into the apparent reason to its roots to see that he himself is the true cause for all his miseries and he himself is the true hurdle for overcoming his miseries as well. Therefore, he is bound to turn " his sight " away from the true cause for his miseries - the ego, the identities, the ownerships, toward a potential solution which is deviod of all these limitations. 3. How can the sight be made to go in that direction? This question could be qualified further, " What is keeping our sight away from this direction? " Definitely, our urge " to live " , Projection, protection and propagation of ego, identities and ownerships. Then the question, " How can the sight be made to go in that direction? " is self-evident. The sight automatically turns toward The Eternity by learning " to die " , Rejection, reduction and removal of ego, identities and ownerships. Learning " to be " rather than " to have " . Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Dear spiritual Brothers and Sisters, God is formless and ineffable and to describe God even words recoil. He lives within you and you live within Him like billions of living cells live within you and you live within the billions of cells. We each of us (including all animate and inanimate life/things) are all living cell of God. Maya creates a golden dazzling disc and hides God from us even though we live within Him. Thus the greatest miracle Maya (cosmic delusion) creates is that we search for God every where though He is within us as our guide, friend and philosopher. God is the first Guru (preceptor) and Prakrti- the divine Nature- our supreme Mother is the perfect Guru and guides us through her Rta (cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order). These Rts (cosmic laws) even the blind person can read and follow. A large number of Rta are mentioned in Vedas. The entire social, moral and physical disorder starts when we do not follow the guidelines given by God living within us and Rta laid down by the divine Nature known as Aditi- infinite, Daivi-divine and Devaki-mother of all beings of light (devas/devis) like Usha, Prithvi, Agni, Indraith kind regards, P.K.Sabhlok =================================================================== QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2008 Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram All respondent - brothers and sister Shashikalaji have been generous ! All my questions are unanswered. My request was that - these questions that were put forth in front of you, they were not simply for the purpose of knowing. This is my personal distress, that I have been unable to comprehend a simple, straight-forward point, which you all have understood. Shraddhey Swamiji had said that there is nothing that can be more easier than this - Paramaatmaa is already ever-attained from the very beginning. This itself is my distress. When Paramaatmaa is already attained, then for the purpose of attaining, does He become unattained as Swamiji has often said - that Paramaatmaa does not have the strength to distance Himself from us. QUESTION: My distress is that how do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him? I do not know the way, therefore I have started troubling you all, otherwise what distress could there be? Gita-talk moderator, this is not just my own distress, there must be many others like me that have this question, that are aimlessly wandering and lost. You all please explain, that in this state, what should I do? My humble pranaams to all, Sarvottam IN HINDI Shree Hari Ram Ram Sabhi utterdaataa udaarmanaa bandhuo evam bahen Shashikalaji ko ! mere sabhi prashna anutterit hai. Meraa anurodh hai ki maatre jaanne ke liye meine ye prashna aapke samaksh nahin rakhe hai, ye meir kathinaayi hai, meri aapdaa hai ki mein ek seedhee si baat nahin samajh sak rahaa jo aap sabhi samajh chuke hai. Shraddhey Swamiji ne kahaa thaa ki isse saral kuch ho hi nahin saktaa kyonki Paramaatmaa to pahale se hi praapt hai. Bas yahin meri aapadaa hai. Jab Paramaatmaa praapt hai, toh praapt karneke liye hi Parmaatmaa apraapt ho jaayenge jo Swamiji kahete rahe ki Paramaatmaa ki dum nahin ki hamse door ho jaaye. Meri yahin aapdaa hai ki kaiseker Paramaatmaa ko apraapt kar loon aur fir kuch bhi karke praapt karoon . Mujhe raah nahin soojhti isliye aap sabko pareshaan karne lagaa varnaa koyi aapdaa hoti hi kyon ? Shri samvayakji, yeh meri hi vyaktigat aapdaa nahin hai anek mere sam ananboojhe prashna lekar bhatakane waale anek honge. Aap sabhi sujhaaye ki is sthithi mein hum kyaa kare ? Sabhi ko vinamre pranaam sahit Sarvottam -------------------------------- NEW POSTING Jai Shree Krishna Jai Ho ! Jee Jee !! Sarvottamji , now the real answers will flow to your questions. " Jara saamne to aao Challiye, chhup chhup chhalane main kya raaj hai, yoon chhup na sakega Paramatma , meri aatma ki yeh awaaj hai " Come to our sight , O Unmanifest ! What is the secret of remaining hidden , and playing tricks on us ? You will not be able to hide yourself from us O Paramatma ! This is the voice of our Atma ( individual soul ) (to Paramatma) ! " Teri preet pe bada hamen naaz hai, tere haath main hamaari sab laaj hai " Yoon chhup na sakega Paramatma , meri atma ki yeh awaaj hai. We are proud of your affection for us, O Lord. Our honour is in your hands now, O Lord. You will not be able to hide from us any more !! Rajendra Bohra Narayana Narayana - Dear Vineetji, It is great to see that your desire to realise God is increasing. This is a very good sign. Keep the desire burning with greater and greater intensity. This itself will take you there. In an earlier posting on the subject of 'Gunas and Self Evolution', I had tried to explain something similar to your question,. For your ready reference let me repeat it as below: Quote There are four things that come between 'Jeeva' and 'Atma'. These are man (mind), buddhi (intellect0, Chitta (I do not know the right English word for this. Perhaps we can call it wisdom) and 'Ahankar'. These four constitute 'Jeeva'. Only when we are able to cross (anihilate) all these, we will realise God. So long as we are Jeeva, we need to make an effort to realise God. It may be widely believed that we can pursue God only when we are 'Sattwik'. This may not be wholly true, because as per God himself, every one has an equal right to achieve Him. Besides, God is beyond any Gunas. Then where do we start? According to me starting point of this journey is the desire to realise God. This is very clear from your question that you want to start the journey. The next step is to attack the first impediment, which is the mind. Mind is perhaps the greatest creation of nature. It has a tendency to become what ever company it keeps. Currently we keep the company of the world. So it becomes worldly. So let us first change this company. Let us start indulging in literature, which helps us to move in that direction. Also, let us start keeping company of such people, who are moving in this line. This, however, can be dangerous because in today's world, every one who is a kathakar (or a preacher) proclaims himself as 'Siddha'. The real test in such a situation would be to assess if this person has any lust for money. If yes, he can't help us as God can't be purchased with money. In pursuit of God, please ignore what Gunas (prakrity, svabhaav) we are born with. No amount of effort, including wishing them away (believing that these are not in us) will help. But our devotion will automatically take care of that. We should just proceed. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I have not used the word " you " , while addressing your question. This is because we are all in the same boat. Hence this answer is for all of us including myself to remember again and again. Unquote To supplement, may I give a very simple experiment for you to try. Place a coin at the bottom of the bucket full of water. Stir the water. Try if you can see the coin. Now allow the water to become still. Again see if you can now see the coin. Stirred water is like a stirred mind and still water is like a still mind. In both cases the coin is there but in one case, we can not see it and in another, we can clearly see it. If you are still not clear, please feel free to ask. Meanwhile, I strongly suggest that you please read commentaries on Gitaji (Tatv Vivechini Teeka or Sadhak Sanjivini Teeka - Both are published by Gita Press). A.H.Dalmia Let me try to understand and offer some solace to Sarvottama.....in his quest to " attain " the Absolute. It is my understanding that the Absolute is unlimited, infinite, every increasing. Indeed, I have heard it said many times that the Lord does not even know the limits of His own ability to expand. How can one " attain " such a Being? But, He becomes completely controlled out of love, and subservient to his bhakta who follows the process to attain Him. that process, given in Bhagavad Gita by Lord Krsna.....who says, " In the beginning, I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the Sun god Vivasvan, who in turn imparted it to Iksvaku, who in turn imparted it to Manu, the father of mankind. In this way, the science as it is has been handed down. " So, who has handed down to you the understanding of how to " attain " God? What does " attaining " mean to you? Does it mean that you see Him sitting beside you, when you honor your meals, offering your food mentally, toward His mouth before it enters yours? It certainly could mean this....but not unless you have the seed of bhakti, the bhakti lata bija. And then, that lata, or creeper, must be watered daily, or it will wither and die. Only by constant hearing and chanting, under guidance, will your heart come to the level of spontaneous love, so much so that you see the Lord always next to you, in His beautiful two-armed form, sometimes holding a flute, perhaps at other times a guitar, or lute, or harp .....WHY NOT? He is unlimited, but He is not a cheap commodity......if you want to meet the president of the United States, or ANY other country, do you just walk up to the door of the capital and demand, " Let me meet the president! " ? More than likely, such a person would go to jail. But if you find someone very near and dear to the ruler, perhaps his cousin, or son, or daughter, that person can easily bring you directly into the office or even the dining room or kitchen of that great ruler.....and you will have successfully come into the inner heart of that person who is so unattainable for the masses. He will accept you immediately as one of His family, by virtue of your connection with other family member. So, if you can find a person who is so dear to Lord, who is sitting with Him constantly, speaking with HIm in a regular way, holding Him close moment by moment, then you will also be able to come to that coveted platform. Otherwise........well, hell may one day freeze over, it could happen. Honestly, I am thinking that if one truly DID attain the Lord, for even a moment, he or she would be on such a high level....certainly they would never feel attraction to anything in this world, and would be most anxious to find those who could constantly rekindle and spark that " uddipani " or stimuli, to continue remembering even that one moment when the Lord was present. Truly, have any of us attained the Lord, even briefly? If we did, our thirst to hold Him close would be beyond description. Nothing would matter save and except to continue rendering Him service, serving His beloved devotees, and holding onto that precious remembrance. Sincerely, with Love and affection Mahalakshmi dasi Hari Om Both the question of Sarvottamji and reply by his Jee Jee Shashikalaji might have melted and moved many hearts ! Indeed we use mind more than the heart. Sarvottamji you are definitely nearer to Him than many of us. Your bhavas (inner expressions) are guiding principles for all of us. I salute you-Sir- from the last core of my heart. But I have complaint with Shashikalaji. Why Sarvottamji should recommend you only? What wrong we have done, Jee? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ================================================================= PREVIOUS POSTING Jai Hanuman Namaste Bhaiyya Shree Jee, you appear to be quite anxious to meet Daddy. Remain so Bhaiyya- " Kabhi to Deendayal ke bhanak padegi kaan " ( He will have to lend His ears to you). In the end all have to depend upon His grace only. " Jab tujhase na sulajhe tere ulajhe hue dhandhe, Bhagwan ke insaaf pe sab chhod de Bande! Khud hi teri mushkil ko woh asaan karega, jo tu nahin kar paaya woh Bhagwaan karega " (When you are not able to solve your problems, it is better to leave that to the grace and justice of Bhagwaan. He Himself will solve your problem . What you have not been able to do, Bhagwaan will do) Have that trust, Bhaiyya Shree on that Deendayal. No one has ever come back from His regime empty handed. " Hum tumhe jaane tum nahin jaano, aisa kabhi na ho sakta-Pita apne Baalak se bichhad ke sukh se kabhi naa so sakta " ( That we know Him and He does not know us- it can never happen. No father can sleep peacefully , remaining away from His son) I pray I too have similar anxiety (vyaakulata) like you for Papa the Great. Swamiji was right, Papa can not distance Himself away from us. He has no powers to do that. He will dance on your fingers, Bhaiyya Shree ! In this life itself ! ! Where can He run away ? From you ?? No He can't. When you meet with Him, recommend for me also, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - -Shree Hari- I had a thought that may help Vineetji to focus his understanding. There is a medical condition, whereby a person is totally blind, often caused by trauma. The doctors and experts find that his eyes are perfect, his brain is undamaged, he can see, but; his mind cannot. The cure is for him to understand that he is not blind, (the correct therapy is required). It is like that you understand . With Respect and Divine Love , Mike (Mike Keenor) ------------------------------ PREVIOUS QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions that have been asked are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack in understanding, and that which is ever attained, to want to attain it, is deceit. That which is ever attained, is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is - 1) What does it mean to have our sight there? 2) Who will have their sight there ? 3) How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a answer. Vineet Sarvottam =========================================================== Hari Om Q1 What does it mean to have our sight there. Ans to realise/remember/ to experience His presence in you. Q2 Who will have their sight there? Ans What is this question? Paramatma is not going to come and have sight there in your place, nor He will send any messenger to catch hold of your eyes and turn them using some machine..Nor any neighbor or relative will come to help you.. Body is inert. World itself is entangled. Who remained? Jeeva ! You yourself ! !. " Self " not " non self " . Ego, mind, intellect, body they are " non self " . Hence you - yourself. Who did you think will come to your rescue ? Q3- How can the sight be made to go there? Ans By making the sight withdrawn from the world. Sight's role ends there. The sight does not then will have to be made to go there or anywhere ? The element will come before the sight automatically. You have to just Stay Put- thereafter. Just be Silent , in Repose ! There is no need to do anything thereafter. Just withdraw your sight from the world- that is all you have to. Rest is actionless. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - -Shree Hari- I wish to dwell a little on Rajendraji comments. If one has a great desire for the Divine truth if only originating from the mind of the curious thinker, but an honest thinker who keeps her/his pre-conceived ideas out of the process. Allowing Divine Lord to help in the process, trusting in the outcome, regardless of what the Ego may say or do, trust, trust. Slowly the Ego gets broken, with each break the divine within shines a little more, a little more. Like cracks in shell that covers your spiritual heart. You become more and more humble and loving, you do not look away, when a tortured soul with cerebral palsy drooling, searches out your eyes, that soul wants contact, the divine within looks out with compassion, maybe for the first time that soul may see GOD in the eyes of stranger. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) -------------------------------- Jai Shree Krishna I am relieved to see the question getting reframed. Certainly the advice of Jee Jee Shashikalaji has worked. Indeed, detergent prices are soaring. There is one " sher " (a two liner) Dil ke aaine main hai, tasveere yaar, jab jara gardan jhukaai dekh lee. The Beloved (Paramatma) is right inside your heart, simply bow your head and see Him. The lady who lost the gold chain in fact need only to tilt her head down, she will find the gold chain. That God is inside you, in your heart is a proven fact. (Gita 18:61). Now " bowing " your head means surrender. It can also mean throwing that thing which makes your head straight/swollen (Ego) into the dust bin. Be ego less. With Ego, your mind, intellect, sense organs, organs of action and your body all will rest where they actually should - in the dust bin. You alone, Self then shall " sight " the Paramatma - effortlessly. So either surrender (Gita 18:66 read with 7:14) or disconnect with world by becoming egoless. Choose Vineetji - what ever is convenient to you. Rajendra J Bohra Narayana Narayana -------------------------- Jai Hanuman Bhaiyyaji ! What a question? Typical question Jee ! Who will sight !! Who will see the gold chain? Who ever has lost it Jee, will have to see ! Simple common sense Jee ! Who is suffering ? Who is not peaceful? Jeeva or somebody else? Who ever who needs peace will sight that, Jee. So Brahmaji will not come to help you Jee. You have lost that gold chain Jee. Only your " self " will have to help your " self " Jee! Bhaiyyaji, my advice is that do not go into the chakkar (web) of this " sight " at all Jee. They are high level fundas Jee. Simply close your eyes, Jee. So that the world is out of your focus Jee. You will find the gold chain, Bhaiyya. Simply close your eyes, then what will open is your inner eye, and your job will be done. Closing your eyes means " cut off " from the world. Disconnect, Jee! Laali Laali sab kahe , sabke palle laal ! Gaanth khol dekhe nahin , taate phire kangaal !! Every body says I want diamond, I want diamond . The diamond is in the person of every body. No body ( Alas ! No body searches the self) opens the knot of pocket, and instead keeps loitering in the world, Penniless like a beggar - (again crying I want diamond, I want diamond) !! That " knot " , that " gaanth " is your union with inert, with world. Just open it, just separate the two ropes. You are home, Bhaiyyaji. Read Ramayan - Jad chetan ki granthi - the knot of sentient and inert ! Open that knot Jee. Don't ask again, who will open that, Jee. Clear, Jee ? Brother, Jee !! Namaste Jee ! Shashikala -------------------------- That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to " go there " . Perfect recap ! I would only put " go there " since this cannot have the same cannotation of our daily usage. Remember, || Na tatra chakshurgacchati na vaggacchati no manah || None of the faculties under your control can ever enter there, be it the body organs, or the senses, or the mind, or the intellect, or anything else that you think you can manipulate for the simple reason that we cannot cognize anything unless a change is super- imposed on everything. Accordingly, all our faculties are built around the change alone; the change perceived within them due to their limitations. For example, our visual faculty is designed to receive electro-magentic waves of certain frequencies. We all know that electro-magnetic frequencies are filling our environment in all ranges, but we can see only certain colors - violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red. We cannot perceive ultra-violet and infra-red rays. Same way, each set of brain cells can receive only certain range of frequencies which distinguish colors as such within themselves. So is our audio system, we cannot hear sub-sonic and super-sonic sounds that surpass our limitations. Therefore, it is futile to imagine to " go to the unlimmitted " depending thoroughly on " the limited faculties " . 1. What does it mean to have our sight there? This is an excellent distillation of our ignorance. Understanding that The Changeless cannot be perceived by the faculties that insist on changes, the only way " to have our sight there " is to not have one! || Yada panchavatishthante gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taam aahuh paramaam gatim || " Our sight is there " when all our faculties - body, senses, mind and even intellect, come to a halt! That state is the Supreme State, says Yama. In other words, when our association transcends all our activities within our cognition, our sight can possible be there. The true silence is not terminating our faculties physically, but to let them " be " rather than craving to " have " . 2. Who will have their sight in that direction? One who understands a reason for one's miseries would definitely attempt to turn toward the solution even if it is a potential one. Any surviving being is programmed to carry on this feat. A seeker is also a survivor, at least to start with. The only difference is - a spiritual seeker perpetually penetrates into the apparent reason to its roots to see that he himself is the true cause for all his miseries and he himself is the true hurdle for overcoming his miseries as well. Therefore, he is bound to turn " his sight " away from the true cause for his miseries - the ego, the identities, the ownerships, toward a potential solution which is deviod of all these limitations. 3. How can the sight be made to go in that direction? This question could be qualified further, " What is keeping our sight away from this direction? " Definitely, our urge " to live " , Projection, protection and propagation of ego, identities and ownerships. Then the question, " How can the sight be made to go in that direction? " is self-evident. The sight automatically turns toward The Eternity by learning " to die " , Rejection, reduction and removal of ego, identities and ownerships. Learning " to be " rather than " to have " . Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Dear spiritual Brothers and Sisters, God is formless and ineffable and to describe God even words recoil. He lives within you and you live within Him like billions of living cells live within you and you live within the billions of cells. We each of us (including all animate and inanimate life/things) are all living cell of God. Maya creates a golden dazzling disc and hides God from us even though we live within Him. Thus the greatest miracle Maya (cosmic delusion) creates is that we search for God every where though He is within us as our guide, friend and philosopher. God is the first Guru (preceptor) and Prakrti- the divine Nature- our supreme Mother is the perfect Guru and guides us through her Rta (cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order). These Rts (cosmic laws) even the blind person can read and follow. A large number of Rta are mentioned in Vedas. The entire social, moral and physical disorder starts when we do not follow the guidelines given by God living within us and Rta laid down by the divine Nature known as Aditi- infinite, Daivi-divine and Devaki-mother of all beings of light (devas/devis) like Usha, Prithvi, Agni, Indraith kind regards, P.K.Sabhlok =================================================================== QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2008 Report Share Posted August 31, 2008 QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram All respondent - brothers and sister Shashikalaji have been generous ! All my questions are unanswered. My request was that - these questions that were put forth in front of you, they were not simply for the purpose of knowing. This is my personal distress, that I have been unable to comprehend a simple, straight-forward point, which you all have understood. Shraddhey Swamiji had said that there is nothing that can be more easier than this - Paramaatmaa is already ever-attained from the very beginning. This itself is my distress. When Paramaatmaa is already attained, then for the purpose of attaining, does He become unattained as Swamiji has often said - that Paramaatmaa does not have the strength to distance Himself from us. QUESTION: My distress is that how do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him? I do not know the way, therefore I have started troubling you all, otherwise what distress could there be? Gita-talk moderator, this is not just my own distress, there must be many others like me that have this question, that are aimlessly wandering and lost. You all please explain, that in this state, what should I do? My humble pranaams to all, Sarvottam IN HINDI Shree Hari Ram Ram Sabhi utterdaataa udaarmanaa bandhuo evam bahen Shashikalaji ko ! mere sabhi prashna anutterit hai. Meraa anurodh hai ki maatre jaanne ke liye meine ye prashna aapke samaksh nahin rakhe hai, ye meir kathinaayi hai, meri aapdaa hai ki mein ek seedhee si baat nahin samajh sak rahaa jo aap sabhi samajh chuke hai. Shraddhey Swamiji ne kahaa thaa ki isse saral kuch ho hi nahin saktaa kyonki Paramaatmaa to pahale se hi praapt hai. Bas yahin meri aapadaa hai. Jab Paramaatmaa praapt hai, toh praapt karneke liye hi Parmaatmaa apraapt ho jaayenge jo Swamiji kahete rahe ki Paramaatmaa ki dum nahin ki hamse door ho jaaye. Meri yahin aapdaa hai ki kaiseker Paramaatmaa ko apraapt kar loon aur fir kuch bhi karke praapt karoon . Mujhe raah nahin soojhti isliye aap sabko pareshaan karne lagaa varnaa koyi aapdaa hoti hi kyon ? Shri samvayakji, yeh meri hi vyaktigat aapdaa nahin hai anek mere sam ananboojhe prashna lekar bhatakane waale anek honge. Aap sabhi sujhaaye ki is sthithi mein hum kyaa kare ? Sabhi ko vinamre pranaam sahit Sarvottam -------------------------------- NEW POSTING Priy Aatman, The question itself is your answer. You said How do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him? I ask U why should U make Paramatmaa Unattained? And why U should try to Attain if it is already there? It is like throwing coin in your hand & then start searching it. For what good. Other way round if U cant feel attained, then, simply watch your heartbeats or Breathing & ask who is doing all this since your birth uninterruptedly. The answer will come. Thanks Hope it helps. Your valuable experience is invited. Pl. let me know what U felt. Raja Gurdasani. ------------------------------- " shraddhaa vaanlabhate jnaanam, tatparah saiyyetindriyah jnaanam labhvaa param shaantimchirenaadhi gacchyati. " (Gita 4:39) " yathaa kaashasthito nityam vaayuh sarvatra go mahaan tathaa sarvaani bhootaani matsthaaneetypadhaaraya " (Gita 9:3) Ahamaatamaa dudaakesha sarvabhootaashayasthitah ahamaadishva madhyamca bhootaanaamanta eva ca. " (Gita 10:20) There are few things in this world for which we don't ask any explanation e.g., Sun, Moon etc. We were told that it is Sun & it is Moon and we accepted it. We didn't asked for any explanation. The same is with God, we need not try to understand Him by explanation. We should just accept it. Its my most humble request to Sri Sarvottamji that please read Gita chapter seven and nine and you will get the answer to all your " unanswered questions " . Ram Ram Ashok Goenka ----------------------------- Hari Om Naham Karta Hari Karta I do not know if this is a simple case of misunderstanding arising out of particular usage of words (such as " attained " or " unattained " )or of substantive understanding. The " Attainment " of God without any explicit effort having been made in that direction or as implied in the statement " Paramatman is already ever-attained from the very beginning " - can only refer to the unconditional " divine grace " that characterizes everything without exception in creation. This is however just a starting point and a mere indication of potency of Jeevatama. It is the " ahankara " tatva, progenitor of " aham " - or " ego " which alienates us from this original state of divine grace and bliss. Coming to grips with this separation or alienation and retrieving the original state of divine grace and grace - is what is really " attaining " . Sri Krishnarpanamasthu Vijayendra Acharya ------------------------------- Dear Sadaks, In a moon light night a person gets afraid of his shadow. When he contemplates, he realizes that the shadow was from him obstructing light. First was ignorance, second was knowledge (realization). Soul is part and parcel of Paramatma, as such Bagavan said that the Atman is indestructible by any thing. The soul is Paramatma WHO illuminates all senses. Once soul leaves the body, the senses/organs becomes useless/decay. Now one should realizes that he is Atman not the body. Which many saints knew as such they offered themselves to be killed. Due to ignorance though one has the Paramatma within him (already in the body), he is searching around, not knowing he can see Paramatma within himself. Prahalad knew this and so he could not be destroyed by any elements. Gnaneswar knew this made the wall move like an airplane. Tukaram knew this and just went in Puspaka Viman from Vaikunt Stal at Devu Village-Poone to Vaikunt on the call of Sri Vishnu. This Quest for realization comes from within. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum So, in reading over so many wonderful and transcendental postings, I noticed one of my own which was needing some clarification. I am thinking that certainly the clarification would fit into the discussion of how to attain the Supreme. The story was there of a minister who was highly trusted by the king. The minister went everywhere with the king, and always gave good advice. One day the minister was put to the test of his worthiness, when the king asked him, first, " Can you show me God " , and secondly, " What is God doing " ? The first question has been addressed in the previous posting.....the presentation was somehow cut short without being clear......so, the small boy, the son of the minister, said to the king, " I will answer you second question, but please tell me, you are sitting on the throne, and I am done here on the floor. Is this the appropriate position for one who is accepting himself to be a student? The king immediately understood the gist of the child's statement, and he placed the child on the throne out of respect. Then the child said, " This is exactly what God is doing. He is taking someone from a high position, and putting them in a lowly position, and someone from a low position and taking them high, all due to the results of their actions. " The king was very pleased with the child, and offered the father so much wealth. So, now let us consider one step further; a thought which just came to mind as I read over various postings. If our greatest wealth is a loving relationship with the Lord, if that becomes our source of happiness, joy, and our only purpose for being, then we will ask nothing, absolutely NOTHING from the Lord accept to have Him as our friend, or child, or lover, or to in some way be allowed to render service to Him. If enough of the world had this focus, not to desire anything save and except service, oh, how pleasant that would be for the Lord! He wouldn't have to feel the need to fulfill so many material desires, of so many different varieties. Then, truly, His presence could be manifest, in more and more solid form, with no concern that, " Oh, I don't have time for pastimes in this world, I have so many arrangements to make for those who are " needing " on the materialistic level. " The bottom line, let me learn to never ask the Lord for anything except to render Him service. Most humbly, Mahalaksmi dasi ------------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Oh! Part of Supreme Consciousness, have you accepted, or not? Have you accepted - I am God's and only God is mine ? With a simple, straight forward heart, have you accepted? Only Giridhar Gopal is Mine, No one else is ! Yes! Now what is the distress? Now what is to be done to unattain Him? and what is to be done to attain Him? Where do you even exist? Now, everything is His will. Where do you have any desire at all? After acceptance, everything that is happening is according to His will. Because only He Is. Understood? There is nothing to be done by you. Whatever was to be done, has been done. And that happens only one time. After marriage, when your daughter left to go to her new home, did you send her off with wheat flour, for her rotis? Wasn't all arranged for her and taken care off thereafter by her husband? Everything has already been arranged for you, as well by Paramatama. There is nothing to be done. There is no distress. Oh! part of God, you are already - fearless, free of worries, free of doubts and free of all grief. IN HINDI Hey Ishvar ke ANSH, Aapne ek baar sweekaar kar liyaa, ke nahin? Mein Bhagwaan kaa hoon, aur kewal Bhagwaan hi mere hai ! Haa ! sweekaar KIYAA? Saral hrdey se, drdhtaa poorvak, sweekar kiyaa? Mere toh Giridhar Gopal, doosero ne koyi ! Haa Maharaaj! Ab kyaa aapdaa? Ab kyaa apraapt karnaa hai, aur kyaa praapt karnaa hai aapko ? Aap thodi ne hai ? Ab toh unki marji. Aapki kyaa iccha? Ab toh unki marji ke hisaab se sab kuch hogaa. Aap toh ab kahaan hai? Woh hi toh hai !!! Aap Samjhe ? Kuch bhi nahin karnaa hai aapko ! Jo honaa thaa woh ho gayaa. Woh ek hi baar hotaa hai. Aapki ladki ki shaadi ke baad, aapne use aataa dekar sasuraal bhejaa thaa, uski roti ke liye ? Sab vyavasthaa ho gayi ne, shaadi ke baad? Aapki bhi toh sab vyavasthaa Bhagwaan ne kar rakhi hai. Kuch bhi nahin karnaa hai. Kuch bhi aapadaa nahin hai. He Ansh nirbhay, nischint, nishank, nishauk ho chuke ho Aap ! Meera das, Ram Ram ------------------------------- PREVIOUS POSTING Jai Shree Krishna Jai Ho ! Jee Jee !! Sarvottamji , now the real answers will flow to your questions. " Jara saamne to aao Challiye, chhup chhup chhalane main kya raaj hai, yoon chhup na sakega Paramatma , meri aatma ki yeh awaaj hai " Come to our sight , O Unmanifest ! What is the secret of remaining hidden , and playing tricks on us ? You will not be able to hide yourself from us O Paramatma ! This is the voice of our Atma ( individual soul ) (to Paramatma) ! " Teri preet pe bada hamen naaz hai, tere haath main hamaari sab laaj hai " Yoon chhup na sakega Paramatma , meri atma ki yeh awaaj hai. We are proud of your affection for us, O Lord. Our honour is in your hands now, O Lord. You will not be able to hide from us any more !! Rajendra Bohra Narayana Narayana - Dear Vineetji, It is great to see that your desire to realise God is increasing. This is a very good sign. Keep the desire burning with greater and greater intensity. This itself will take you there. In an earlier posting on the subject of 'Gunas and Self Evolution', I had tried to explain something similar to your question,. For your ready reference let me repeat it as below: Quote There are four things that come between 'Jeeva' and 'Atma'. These are man (mind), buddhi (intellect0, Chitta (I do not know the right English word for this. Perhaps we can call it wisdom) and 'Ahankar'. These four constitute 'Jeeva'. Only when we are able to cross (anihilate) all these, we will realise God. So long as we are Jeeva, we need to make an effort to realise God. It may be widely believed that we can pursue God only when we are 'Sattwik'. This may not be wholly true, because as per God himself, every one has an equal right to achieve Him. Besides, God is beyond any Gunas. Then where do we start? According to me starting point of this journey is the desire to realise God. This is very clear from your question that you want to start the journey. The next step is to attack the first impediment, which is the mind. Mind is perhaps the greatest creation of nature. It has a tendency to become what ever company it keeps. Currently we keep the company of the world. So it becomes worldly. So let us first change this company. Let us start indulging in literature, which helps us to move in that direction. Also, let us start keeping company of such people, who are moving in this line. This, however, can be dangerous because in today's world, every one who is a kathakar (or a preacher) proclaims himself as 'Siddha'. The real test in such a situation would be to assess if this person has any lust for money. If yes, he can't help us as God can't be purchased with money. In pursuit of God, please ignore what Gunas (prakrity, svabhaav) we are born with. No amount of effort, including wishing them away (believing that these are not in us) will help. But our devotion will automatically take care of that. We should just proceed. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I have not used the word " you " , while addressing your question. This is because we are all in the same boat. Hence this answer is for all of us including myself to remember again and again. Unquote To supplement, may I give a very simple experiment for you to try. Place a coin at the bottom of the bucket full of water. Stir the water. Try if you can see the coin. Now allow the water to become still. Again see if you can now see the coin. Stirred water is like a stirred mind and still water is like a still mind. In both cases the coin is there but in one case, we can not see it and in another, we can clearly see it. If you are still not clear, please feel free to ask. Meanwhile, I strongly suggest that you please read commentaries on Gitaji (Tatv Vivechini Teeka or Sadhak Sanjivini Teeka - Both are published by Gita Press). A.H.Dalmia Let me try to understand and offer some solace to Sarvottama.....in his quest to " attain " the Absolute. It is my understanding that the Absolute is unlimited, infinite, every increasing. Indeed, I have heard it said many times that the Lord does not even know the limits of His own ability to expand. How can one " attain " such a Being? But, He becomes completely controlled out of love, and subservient to his bhakta who follows the process to attain Him. that process, given in Bhagavad Gita by Lord Krsna.....who says, " In the beginning, I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the Sun god Vivasvan, who in turn imparted it to Iksvaku, who in turn imparted it to Manu, the father of mankind. In this way, the science as it is has been handed down. " So, who has handed down to you the understanding of how to " attain " God? What does " attaining " mean to you? Does it mean that you see Him sitting beside you, when you honor your meals, offering your food mentally, toward His mouth before it enters yours? It certainly could mean this....but not unless you have the seed of bhakti, the bhakti lata bija. And then, that lata, or creeper, must be watered daily, or it will wither and die. Only by constant hearing and chanting, under guidance, will your heart come to the level of spontaneous love, so much so that you see the Lord always next to you, in His beautiful two-armed form, sometimes holding a flute, perhaps at other times a guitar, or lute, or harp .....WHY NOT? He is unlimited, but He is not a cheap commodity......if you want to meet the president of the United States, or ANY other country, do you just walk up to the door of the capital and demand, " Let me meet the president! " ? More than likely, such a person would go to jail. But if you find someone very near and dear to the ruler, perhaps his cousin, or son, or daughter, that person can easily bring you directly into the office or even the dining room or kitchen of that great ruler.....and you will have successfully come into the inner heart of that person who is so unattainable for the masses. He will accept you immediately as one of His family, by virtue of your connection with other family member. So, if you can find a person who is so dear to Lord, who is sitting with Him constantly, speaking with HIm in a regular way, holding Him close moment by moment, then you will also be able to come to that coveted platform. Otherwise........well, hell may one day freeze over, it could happen. Honestly, I am thinking that if one truly DID attain the Lord, for even a moment, he or she would be on such a high level....certainly they would never feel attraction to anything in this world, and would be most anxious to find those who could constantly rekindle and spark that " uddipani " or stimuli, to continue remembering even that one moment when the Lord was present. Truly, have any of us attained the Lord, even briefly? If we did, our thirst to hold Him close would be beyond description. Nothing would matter save and except to continue rendering Him service, serving His beloved devotees, and holding onto that precious remembrance. Sincerely, with Love and affection Mahalakshmi dasi Hari Om Both the question of Sarvottamji and reply by his Jee Jee Shashikalaji might have melted and moved many hearts ! Indeed we use mind more than the heart. Sarvottamji you are definitely nearer to Him than many of us. Your bhavas (inner expressions) are guiding principles for all of us. I salute you-Sir- from the last core of my heart. But I have complaint with Shashikalaji. Why Sarvottamji should recommend you only? What wrong we have done, Jee? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ================================================================= PREVIOUS POSTING Jai Hanuman Namaste Bhaiyya Shree Jee, you appear to be quite anxious to meet Daddy. Remain so Bhaiyya- " Kabhi to Deendayal ke bhanak padegi kaan " ( He will have to lend His ears to you). In the end all have to depend upon His grace only. " Jab tujhase na sulajhe tere ulajhe hue dhandhe, Bhagwan ke insaaf pe sab chhod de Bande! Khud hi teri mushkil ko woh asaan karega, jo tu nahin kar paaya woh Bhagwaan karega " (When you are not able to solve your problems, it is better to leave that to the grace and justice of Bhagwaan. He Himself will solve your problem . What you have not been able to do, Bhagwaan will do) Have that trust, Bhaiyya Shree on that Deendayal. No one has ever come back from His regime empty handed. " Hum tumhe jaane tum nahin jaano, aisa kabhi na ho sakta-Pita apne Baalak se bichhad ke sukh se kabhi naa so sakta " ( That we know Him and He does not know us- it can never happen. No father can sleep peacefully , remaining away from His son) I pray I too have similar anxiety (vyaakulata) like you for Papa the Great. Swamiji was right, Papa can not distance Himself away from us. He has no powers to do that. He will dance on your fingers, Bhaiyya Shree ! In this life itself ! ! Where can He run away ? From you ?? No He can't. When you meet with Him, recommend for me also, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - -Shree Hari- I had a thought that may help Vineetji to focus his understanding. There is a medical condition, whereby a person is totally blind, often caused by trauma. The doctors and experts find that his eyes are perfect, his brain is undamaged, he can see, but; his mind cannot. The cure is for him to understand that he is not blind, (the correct therapy is required). It is like that you understand . With Respect and Divine Love , Mike (Mike Keenor) ------------------------------ PREVIOUS QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions that have been asked are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack in understanding, and that which is ever attained, to want to attain it, is deceit. That which is ever attained, is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is - 1) What does it mean to have our sight there? 2) Who will have their sight there ? 3) How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a answer. Vineet Sarvottam =========================================================== Hari Om Q1 What does it mean to have our sight there. Ans to realise/remember/ to experience His presence in you. Q2 Who will have their sight there? Ans What is this question? Paramatma is not going to come and have sight there in your place, nor He will send any messenger to catch hold of your eyes and turn them using some machine..Nor any neighbor or relative will come to help you.. Body is inert. World itself is entangled. Who remained? Jeeva ! You yourself ! !. " Self " not " non self " . Ego, mind, intellect, body they are " non self " . Hence you - yourself. Who did you think will come to your rescue ? Q3- How can the sight be made to go there? Ans By making the sight withdrawn from the world. Sight's role ends there. The sight does not then will have to be made to go there or anywhere ? The element will come before the sight automatically. You have to just Stay Put- thereafter. Just be Silent , in Repose ! There is no need to do anything thereafter. Just withdraw your sight from the world- that is all you have to. Rest is actionless. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - -Shree Hari- I wish to dwell a little on Rajendraji comments. If one has a great desire for the Divine truth if only originating from the mind of the curious thinker, but an honest thinker who keeps her/his pre-conceived ideas out of the process. Allowing Divine Lord to help in the process, trusting in the outcome, regardless of what the Ego may say or do, trust, trust. Slowly the Ego gets broken, with each break the divine within shines a little more, a little more. Like cracks in shell that covers your spiritual heart. You become more and more humble and loving, you do not look away, when a tortured soul with cerebral palsy drooling, searches out your eyes, that soul wants contact, the divine within looks out with compassion, maybe for the first time that soul may see GOD in the eyes of stranger. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) -------------------------------- Jai Shree Krishna I am relieved to see the question getting reframed. Certainly the advice of Jee Jee Shashikalaji has worked. Indeed, detergent prices are soaring. There is one " sher " (a two liner) Dil ke aaine main hai, tasveere yaar, jab jara gardan jhukaai dekh lee. The Beloved (Paramatma) is right inside your heart, simply bow your head and see Him. The lady who lost the gold chain in fact need only to tilt her head down, she will find the gold chain. That God is inside you, in your heart is a proven fact. (Gita 18:61). Now " bowing " your head means surrender. It can also mean throwing that thing which makes your head straight/swollen (Ego) into the dust bin. Be ego less. With Ego, your mind, intellect, sense organs, organs of action and your body all will rest where they actually should - in the dust bin. You alone, Self then shall " sight " the Paramatma - effortlessly. So either surrender (Gita 18:66 read with 7:14) or disconnect with world by becoming egoless. Choose Vineetji - what ever is convenient to you. Rajendra J Bohra Narayana Narayana -------------------------- Jai Hanuman Bhaiyyaji ! What a question? Typical question Jee ! Who will sight !! Who will see the gold chain? Who ever has lost it Jee, will have to see ! Simple common sense Jee ! Who is suffering ? Who is not peaceful? Jeeva or somebody else? Who ever who needs peace will sight that, Jee. So Brahmaji will not come to help you Jee. You have lost that gold chain Jee. Only your " self " will have to help your " self " Jee! Bhaiyyaji, my advice is that do not go into the chakkar (web) of this " sight " at all Jee. They are high level fundas Jee. Simply close your eyes, Jee. So that the world is out of your focus Jee. You will find the gold chain, Bhaiyya. Simply close your eyes, then what will open is your inner eye, and your job will be done. Closing your eyes means " cut off " from the world. Disconnect, Jee! Laali Laali sab kahe , sabke palle laal ! Gaanth khol dekhe nahin , taate phire kangaal !! Every body says I want diamond, I want diamond . The diamond is in the person of every body. No body ( Alas ! No body searches the self) opens the knot of pocket, and instead keeps loitering in the world, Penniless like a beggar - (again crying I want diamond, I want diamond) !! That " knot " , that " gaanth " is your union with inert, with world. Just open it, just separate the two ropes. You are home, Bhaiyyaji. Read Ramayan - Jad chetan ki granthi - the knot of sentient and inert ! Open that knot Jee. Don't ask again, who will open that, Jee. Clear, Jee ? Brother, Jee !! Namaste Jee ! Shashikala -------------------------- That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to " go there " . Perfect recap ! I would only put " go there " since this cannot have the same cannotation of our daily usage. Remember, || Na tatra chakshurgacchati na vaggacchati no manah || None of the faculties under your control can ever enter there, be it the body organs, or the senses, or the mind, or the intellect, or anything else that you think you can manipulate for the simple reason that we cannot cognize anything unless a change is super- imposed on everything. Accordingly, all our faculties are built around the change alone; the change perceived within them due to their limitations. For example, our visual faculty is designed to receive electro-magentic waves of certain frequencies. We all know that electro-magnetic frequencies are filling our environment in all ranges, but we can see only certain colors - violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red. We cannot perceive ultra-violet and infra-red rays. Same way, each set of brain cells can receive only certain range of frequencies which distinguish colors as such within themselves. So is our audio system, we cannot hear sub-sonic and super-sonic sounds that surpass our limitations. Therefore, it is futile to imagine to " go to the unlimmitted " depending thoroughly on " the limited faculties " . 1. What does it mean to have our sight there? This is an excellent distillation of our ignorance. Understanding that The Changeless cannot be perceived by the faculties that insist on changes, the only way " to have our sight there " is to not have one! || Yada panchavatishthante gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taam aahuh paramaam gatim || " Our sight is there " when all our faculties - body, senses, mind and even intellect, come to a halt! That state is the Supreme State, says Yama. In other words, when our association transcends all our activities within our cognition, our sight can possible be there. The true silence is not terminating our faculties physically, but to let them " be " rather than craving to " have " . 2. Who will have their sight in that direction? One who understands a reason for one's miseries would definitely attempt to turn toward the solution even if it is a potential one. Any surviving being is programmed to carry on this feat. A seeker is also a survivor, at least to start with. The only difference is - a spiritual seeker perpetually penetrates into the apparent reason to its roots to see that he himself is the true cause for all his miseries and he himself is the true hurdle for overcoming his miseries as well. Therefore, he is bound to turn " his sight " away from the true cause for his miseries - the ego, the identities, the ownerships, toward a potential solution which is deviod of all these limitations. 3. How can the sight be made to go in that direction? This question could be qualified further, " What is keeping our sight away from this direction? " Definitely, our urge " to live " , Projection, protection and propagation of ego, identities and ownerships. Then the question, " How can the sight be made to go in that direction? " is self-evident. The sight automatically turns toward The Eternity by learning " to die " , Rejection, reduction and removal of ego, identities and ownerships. Learning " to be " rather than " to have " . Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Dear spiritual Brothers and Sisters, God is formless and ineffable and to describe God even words recoil. He lives within you and you live within Him like billions of living cells live within you and you live within the billions of cells. We each of us (including all animate and inanimate life/things) are all living cell of God. Maya creates a golden dazzling disc and hides God from us even though we live within Him. Thus the greatest miracle Maya (cosmic delusion) creates is that we search for God every where though He is within us as our guide, friend and philosopher. God is the first Guru (preceptor) and Prakrti- the divine Nature- our supreme Mother is the perfect Guru and guides us through her Rta (cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order). These Rts (cosmic laws) even the blind person can read and follow. A large number of Rta are mentioned in Vedas. The entire social, moral and physical disorder starts when we do not follow the guidelines given by God living within us and Rta laid down by the divine Nature known as Aditi- infinite, Daivi-divine and Devaki-mother of all beings of light (devas/devis) like Usha, Prithvi, Agni, Indraith kind regards, P.K.Sabhlok =================================================================== QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2008 Report Share Posted September 1, 2008 QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram All respondent - brothers and sister Shashikalaji have been generous ! All my questions are unanswered. My request was that - these questions that were put forth in front of you, they were not simply for the purpose of knowing. This is my personal distress, that I have been unable to comprehend a simple, straight-forward point, which you all have understood. Shraddhey Swamiji had said that there is nothing that can be more easier than this - Paramaatmaa is already ever-attained from the very beginning. This itself is my distress. When Paramaatmaa is already attained, then for the purpose of attaining, does He become unattained as Swamiji has often said - that Paramaatmaa does not have the strength to distance Himself from us. QUESTION: My distress is that how do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him? I do not know the way, therefore I have started troubling you all, otherwise what distress could there be? Gita-talk moderator, this is not just my own distress, there must be many others like me that have this question, that are aimlessly wandering and lost. You all please explain, that in this state, what should I do? My humble pranaams to all, Sarvottam IN HINDI Shree Hari Ram Ram Sabhi utterdaataa udaarmanaa bandhuo evam bahen Shashikalaji ko ! mere sabhi prashna anutterit hai. Meraa anurodh hai ki maatre jaanne ke liye meine ye prashna aapke samaksh nahin rakhe hai, ye meir kathinaayi hai, meri aapdaa hai ki mein ek seedhee si baat nahin samajh sak rahaa jo aap sabhi samajh chuke hai. Shraddhey Swamiji ne kahaa thaa ki isse saral kuch ho hi nahin saktaa kyonki Paramaatmaa to pahale se hi praapt hai. Bas yahin meri aapadaa hai. Jab Paramaatmaa praapt hai, toh praapt karneke liye hi Parmaatmaa apraapt ho jaayenge jo Swamiji kahete rahe ki Paramaatmaa ki dum nahin ki hamse door ho jaaye. Meri yahin aapdaa hai ki kaiseker Paramaatmaa ko apraapt kar loon aur fir kuch bhi karke praapt karoon . Mujhe raah nahin soojhti isliye aap sabko pareshaan karne lagaa varnaa koyi aapdaa hoti hi kyon ? Shri samvayakji, yeh meri hi vyaktigat aapdaa nahin hai anek mere sam ananboojhe prashna lekar bhatakane waale anek honge. Aap sabhi sujhaaye ki is sthithi mein hum kyaa kare ? Sabhi ko vinamre pranaam sahit Sarvottam -------------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om Oh what a divine shape the deliberations have indeed taken ! Sarvottamji, do you recall the Bhajan so affectionnately sung by Swamiji and which played whole day unnterruptedly on T V channels on this nirvaan day? Meera Dasji is right. You are already in surrender zone. Where and what can be " aapda " now - O Son of God ? Naath thaare sharane ayo jee . O Nath thaare sharane ayo jee , Jache Jis tarah khel khilao the man chayoji ! Soch fikar ab saaro thaaren upar ayo jee , maim to ab nischint huyo antar harkhayo jee ! O Naath.... O Lord I have surrendered to you ! Now make me play and play with me, freely as you consider appropriate. All my worries and anxieties are now yours. I have now become " nischint " - worryless and my heart now is full of bliss ! Naath, play with me the way you want. Bojho sabhi utar gayo man ko , dukh bisrayo Jee! Chinta miti bade charano ro saharo payoo jee ! O Naath...... All weight on my mind is now gone ( mind has become light) I have forgotten all griefs, now that I have taken shelter of your most powerful feet. O Lord make me dance to your tunes. Jas apjash ab thaaro, main to daas kahayo jee. Man bhanwaro thare charan kamal par jaa liptayo jee Since I am only your servant now, all fame and ill fame is now only yours. My Mind has now become Bee and has stuck to your lotus feet. Really Sarvottamji, now why you should have distress ? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------- One can attain Paramatma mentally by concentrating on him, and this will in turn give the feeling of reaching him physically. The devotion to Him and total surrender will pave the way. One cannot chalk out a travel plan. Jai Krishna Padmashri Sampathkumar -------------------------------- Hari Om pranams to all seekars, My understanding of attained is as foolws: If we are dead no thought can arise in the dead body. Therefore life has to be there to give birth to the thought. THIS LIFE (GOD) which IS there already is the attained in the sense of Adhyatma.We should think of that LIFE before each thought as our REAL self every moment. This is 24 hrs meditation.WE must Live That which is Attained(GOD in us), as Sun shines without discrimination in this world, we must give LOVE to all friends and foes alike all the time is the practice. If I can feel the pain of the other as intensely as I feel my own one has attained THAT which is all pervading. If It is all pervading where is IT not? What is there more to attain? Love M.Nagaraju. ================================================================= PREVIOUS POSTING Priy Aatman, The question itself is your answer. You said How do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him? I ask U why should U make Paramatmaa Unattained? And why U should try to Attain if it is already there? It is like throwing coin in your hand & then start searching it. For what good. Other way round if U cant feel attained, then, simply watch your heartbeats or Breathing & ask who is doing all this since your birth uninterruptedly. The answer will come. Thanks Hope it helps. Your valuable experience is invited. Pl. let me know what U felt. Raja Gurdasani. ------------------------------- " shraddhaa vaanlabhate jnaanam, tatparah saiyyetindriyah jnaanam labhvaa param shaantimchirenaadhi gacchyati. " (Gita 4:39) " yathaa kaashasthito nityam vaayuh sarvatra go mahaan tathaa sarvaani bhootaani matsthaaneetypadhaaraya " (Gita 9:3) Ahamaatamaa dudaakesha sarvabhootaashayasthitah ahamaadishva madhyamca bhootaanaamanta eva ca. " (Gita 10:20) There are few things in this world for which we don't ask any explanation e.g., Sun, Moon etc. We were told that it is Sun & it is Moon and we accepted it. We didn't asked for any explanation. The same is with God, we need not try to understand Him by explanation. We should just accept it. Its my most humble request to Sri Sarvottamji that please read Gita chapter seven and nine and you will get the answer to all your " unanswered questions " . Ram Ram Ashok Goenka ----------------------------- Hari Om Naham Karta Hari Karta I do not know if this is a simple case of misunderstanding arising out of particular usage of words (such as " attained " or " unattained " )or of substantive understanding. The " Attainment " of God without any explicit effort having been made in that direction or as implied in the statement " Paramatman is already ever-attained from the very beginning " - can only refer to the unconditional " divine grace " that characterizes everything without exception in creation. This is however just a starting point and a mere indication of potency of Jeevatama. It is the " ahankara " tatva, progenitor of " aham " - or " ego " which alienates us from this original state of divine grace and bliss. Coming to grips with this separation or alienation and retrieving the original state of divine grace and grace - is what is really " attaining " . Sri Krishnarpanamasthu Vijayendra Acharya ------------------------------- Dear Sadaks, In a moon light night a person gets afraid of his shadow. When he contemplates, he realizes that the shadow was from him obstructing light. First was ignorance, second was knowledge (realization). Soul is part and parcel of Paramatma, as such Bagavan said that the Atman is indestructible by any thing. The soul is Paramatma WHO illuminates all senses. Once soul leaves the body, the senses/organs becomes useless/decay. Now one should realizes that he is Atman not the body. Which many saints knew as such they offered themselves to be killed. Due to ignorance though one has the Paramatma within him (already in the body), he is searching around, not knowing he can see Paramatma within himself. Prahalad knew this and so he could not be destroyed by any elements. Gnaneswar knew this made the wall move like an airplane. Tukaram knew this and just went in Puspaka Viman from Vaikunt Stal at Devu Village-Poone to Vaikunt on the call of Sri Vishnu. This Quest for realization comes from within. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum So, in reading over so many wonderful and transcendental postings, I noticed one of my own which was needing some clarification. I am thinking that certainly the clarification would fit into the discussion of how to attain the Supreme. The story was there of a minister who was highly trusted by the king. The minister went everywhere with the king, and always gave good advice. One day the minister was put to the test of his worthiness, when the king asked him, first, " Can you show me God " , and secondly, " What is God doing " ? The first question has been addressed in the previous posting.....the presentation was somehow cut short without being clear......so, the small boy, the son of the minister, said to the king, " I will answer you second question, but please tell me, you are sitting on the throne, and I am done here on the floor. Is this the appropriate position for one who is accepting himself to be a student? The king immediately understood the gist of the child's statement, and he placed the child on the throne out of respect. Then the child said, " This is exactly what God is doing. He is taking someone from a high position, and putting them in a lowly position, and someone from a low position and taking them high, all due to the results of their actions. " The king was very pleased with the child, and offered the father so much wealth. So, now let us consider one step further; a thought which just came to mind as I read over various postings. If our greatest wealth is a loving relationship with the Lord, if that becomes our source of happiness, joy, and our only purpose for being, then we will ask nothing, absolutely NOTHING from the Lord accept to have Him as our friend, or child, or lover, or to in some way be allowed to render service to Him. If enough of the world had this focus, not to desire anything save and except service, oh, how pleasant that would be for the Lord! He wouldn't have to feel the need to fulfill so many material desires, of so many different varieties. Then, truly, His presence could be manifest, in more and more solid form, with no concern that, " Oh, I don't have time for pastimes in this world, I have so many arrangements to make for those who are " needing " on the materialistic level. " The bottom line, let me learn to never ask the Lord for anything except to render Him service. Most humbly, Mahalaksmi dasi ------------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Oh! Part of Supreme Consciousness, have you accepted, or not? Have you accepted - I am God's and only God is mine ? With a simple, straight forward heart, have you accepted? Only Giridhar Gopal is Mine, No one else is ! Yes! Now what is the distress? Now what is to be done to unattain Him? and what is to be done to attain Him? Now, where do you even exist? Now, everything is only His will. Now, where do you have any desire of your own at all? After acceptance, everything that is happening is according to His desire, His will. Because only He Is. Understood? There is nothing to be done by you. Whatever was to be done, has been done. And that happens only one time. After marriage, when your daughter left to go to her new home, did you send her off with wheat flour, for her rotis? Wasn't all arranged for her and taken care off thereafter by her husband? Everything has already been arranged for you, as well by Paramatama. There is nothing to be done. There is no distress. Oh! part of God, you are already - fearless, free of worries, free of doubts and free of all grief! Meera Das, Ram Ram IN HINDI Hey Ishvar ke ANSH, Aapne ek baar sweekaar kar liyaa, ke nahin? Mein Bhagwaan kaa hoon, aur kewal Bhagwaan hi mere hai ! Haa ! sweekaar KIYAA? Saral hrdey se, drdhtaa poorvak, sweekar kiyaa? Mere toh Giridhar Gopal, doosero ne koyi ! Haa Maharaaj! Ab kyaa aapdaa? Ab kyaa apraapt karnaa hai, aur kyaa praapt karnaa hai, aapko ? Aap thodi ne hai ? Ab toh unkihi marji. Aapki ab kyaa iccha? Ab toh unkihi marji ke hisaab se sab kuch hogaa. Ab to Aap kahaan hai, Woh hi toh hai !!! Aap Samjhe ? Kuch bhi nahin karnaa hai aapko ! Jo honaa thaa woh ho gayaa. Woh ek hi baar hotaa hai. Aapki ladki ki shaadi ke baad, aapne use aataa dekar sasuraal bhejaa thaa, uski roti ke liye ? Sab vyavasthaa ho gayi ne, shaadi ke baad? Aapki bhi toh sab vyavasthaa Bhagwaan ne kar rakhi hai. Kuch bhi nahin karnaa hai. Kuch bhi aapadaa nahin hai. He Ansh nirbhay, nischint, nishank, nishauk ho chuke ho Aap! Meera das, Ram Ram ------------------------------- Jai Shree Krishna Jai Ho ! Jee Jee !! Sarvottamji , now the real answers will flow to your questions. " Jara saamne to aao Challiye, chhup chhup chhalane main kya raaj hai, yoon chhup na sakega Paramatma , meri aatma ki yeh awaaj hai " Come to our sight , O Unmanifest ! What is the secret of remaining hidden , and playing tricks on us ? You will not be able to hide yourself from us O Paramatma ! This is the voice of our Atma ( individual soul ) (to Paramatma) ! " Teri preet pe bada hamen naaz hai, tere haath main hamaari sab laaj hai " Yoon chhup na sakega Paramatma , meri atma ki yeh awaaj hai. We are proud of your affection for us, O Lord. Our honour is in your hands now, O Lord. You will not be able to hide from us any more !! Rajendra Bohra Narayana Narayana - Dear Vineetji, It is great to see that your desire to realise God is increasing. This is a very good sign. Keep the desire burning with greater and greater intensity. This itself will take you there. In an earlier posting on the subject of 'Gunas and Self Evolution', I had tried to explain something similar to your question,. For your ready reference let me repeat it as below: Quote There are four things that come between 'Jeeva' and 'Atma'. These are man (mind), buddhi (intellect0, Chitta (I do not know the right English word for this. Perhaps we can call it wisdom) and 'Ahankar'. These four constitute 'Jeeva'. Only when we are able to cross (anihilate) all these, we will realise God. So long as we are Jeeva, we need to make an effort to realise God. It may be widely believed that we can pursue God only when we are 'Sattwik'. This may not be wholly true, because as per God himself, every one has an equal right to achieve Him. Besides, God is beyond any Gunas. Then where do we start? According to me starting point of this journey is the desire to realise God. This is very clear from your question that you want to start the journey. The next step is to attack the first impediment, which is the mind. Mind is perhaps the greatest creation of nature. It has a tendency to become what ever company it keeps. Currently we keep the company of the world. So it becomes worldly. So let us first change this company. Let us start indulging in literature, which helps us to move in that direction. Also, let us start keeping company of such people, who are moving in this line. This, however, can be dangerous because in today's world, every one who is a kathakar (or a preacher) proclaims himself as 'Siddha'. The real test in such a situation would be to assess if this person has any lust for money. If yes, he can't help us as God can't be purchased with money. In pursuit of God, please ignore what Gunas (prakrity, svabhaav) we are born with. No amount of effort, including wishing them away (believing that these are not in us) will help. But our devotion will automatically take care of that. We should just proceed. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I have not used the word " you " , while addressing your question. This is because we are all in the same boat. Hence this answer is for all of us including myself to remember again and again. Unquote To supplement, may I give a very simple experiment for you to try. Place a coin at the bottom of the bucket full of water. Stir the water. Try if you can see the coin. Now allow the water to become still. Again see if you can now see the coin. Stirred water is like a stirred mind and still water is like a still mind. In both cases the coin is there but in one case, we can not see it and in another, we can clearly see it. If you are still not clear, please feel free to ask. Meanwhile, I strongly suggest that you please read commentaries on Gitaji (Tatv Vivechini Teeka or Sadhak Sanjivini Teeka - Both are published by Gita Press). A.H.Dalmia Let me try to understand and offer some solace to Sarvottama.....in his quest to " attain " the Absolute. It is my understanding that the Absolute is unlimited, infinite, every increasing. Indeed, I have heard it said many times that the Lord does not even know the limits of His own ability to expand. How can one " attain " such a Being? But, He becomes completely controlled out of love, and subservient to his bhakta who follows the process to attain Him. that process, given in Bhagavad Gita by Lord Krsna.....who says, " In the beginning, I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the Sun god Vivasvan, who in turn imparted it to Iksvaku, who in turn imparted it to Manu, the father of mankind. In this way, the science as it is has been handed down. " So, who has handed down to you the understanding of how to " attain " God? What does " attaining " mean to you? Does it mean that you see Him sitting beside you, when you honor your meals, offering your food mentally, toward His mouth before it enters yours? It certainly could mean this....but not unless you have the seed of bhakti, the bhakti lata bija. And then, that lata, or creeper, must be watered daily, or it will wither and die. Only by constant hearing and chanting, under guidance, will your heart come to the level of spontaneous love, so much so that you see the Lord always next to you, in His beautiful two-armed form, sometimes holding a flute, perhaps at other times a guitar, or lute, or harp .....WHY NOT? He is unlimited, but He is not a cheap commodity......if you want to meet the president of the United States, or ANY other country, do you just walk up to the door of the capital and demand, " Let me meet the president! " ? More than likely, such a person would go to jail. But if you find someone very near and dear to the ruler, perhaps his cousin, or son, or daughter, that person can easily bring you directly into the office or even the dining room or kitchen of that great ruler.....and you will have successfully come into the inner heart of that person who is so unattainable for the masses. He will accept you immediately as one of His family, by virtue of your connection with other family member. So, if you can find a person who is so dear to Lord, who is sitting with Him constantly, speaking with HIm in a regular way, holding Him close moment by moment, then you will also be able to come to that coveted platform. Otherwise........well, hell may one day freeze over, it could happen. Honestly, I am thinking that if one truly DID attain the Lord, for even a moment, he or she would be on such a high level....certainly they would never feel attraction to anything in this world, and would be most anxious to find those who could constantly rekindle and spark that " uddipani " or stimuli, to continue remembering even that one moment when the Lord was present. Truly, have any of us attained the Lord, even briefly? If we did, our thirst to hold Him close would be beyond description. Nothing would matter save and except to continue rendering Him service, serving His beloved devotees, and holding onto that precious remembrance. Sincerely, with Love and affection Mahalakshmi dasi Hari Om Both the question of Sarvottamji and reply by his Jee Jee Shashikalaji might have melted and moved many hearts ! Indeed we use mind more than the heart. Sarvottamji you are definitely nearer to Him than many of us. Your bhavas (inner expressions) are guiding principles for all of us. I salute you-Sir- from the last core of my heart. But I have complaint with Shashikalaji. Why Sarvottamji should recommend you only? What wrong we have done, Jee? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ================================================================= PREVIOUS POSTING Jai Hanuman Namaste Bhaiyya Shree Jee, you appear to be quite anxious to meet Daddy. Remain so Bhaiyya- " Kabhi to Deendayal ke bhanak padegi kaan " ( He will have to lend His ears to you). In the end all have to depend upon His grace only. " Jab tujhase na sulajhe tere ulajhe hue dhandhe, Bhagwan ke insaaf pe sab chhod de Bande! Khud hi teri mushkil ko woh asaan karega, jo tu nahin kar paaya woh Bhagwaan karega " (When you are not able to solve your problems, it is better to leave that to the grace and justice of Bhagwaan. He Himself will solve your problem . What you have not been able to do, Bhagwaan will do) Have that trust, Bhaiyya Shree on that Deendayal. No one has ever come back from His regime empty handed. " Hum tumhe jaane tum nahin jaano, aisa kabhi na ho sakta-Pita apne Baalak se bichhad ke sukh se kabhi naa so sakta " ( That we know Him and He does not know us- it can never happen. No father can sleep peacefully , remaining away from His son) I pray I too have similar anxiety (vyaakulata) like you for Papa the Great. Swamiji was right, Papa can not distance Himself away from us. He has no powers to do that. He will dance on your fingers, Bhaiyya Shree ! In this life itself ! ! Where can He run away ? From you ?? No He can't. When you meet with Him, recommend for me also, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - -Shree Hari- I had a thought that may help Vineetji to focus his understanding. There is a medical condition, whereby a person is totally blind, often caused by trauma. The doctors and experts find that his eyes are perfect, his brain is undamaged, he can see, but; his mind cannot. The cure is for him to understand that he is not blind, (the correct therapy is required). It is like that you understand . With Respect and Divine Love , Mike (Mike Keenor) ------------------------------ PREVIOUS QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions that have been asked are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack in understanding, and that which is ever attained, to want to attain it, is deceit. That which is ever attained, is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is - 1) What does it mean to have our sight there? 2) Who will have their sight there ? 3) How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a answer. Vineet Sarvottam =========================================================== Hari Om Q1 What does it mean to have our sight there. Ans to realise/remember/ to experience His presence in you. Q2 Who will have their sight there? Ans What is this question? Paramatma is not going to come and have sight there in your place, nor He will send any messenger to catch hold of your eyes and turn them using some machine..Nor any neighbor or relative will come to help you.. Body is inert. World itself is entangled. Who remained? Jeeva ! You yourself ! !. " Self " not " non self " . Ego, mind, intellect, body they are " non self " . Hence you - yourself. Who did you think will come to your rescue ? Q3- How can the sight be made to go there? Ans By making the sight withdrawn from the world. Sight's role ends there. The sight does not then will have to be made to go there or anywhere ? The element will come before the sight automatically. You have to just Stay Put- thereafter. Just be Silent , in Repose ! There is no need to do anything thereafter. Just withdraw your sight from the world- that is all you have to. Rest is actionless. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - -Shree Hari- I wish to dwell a little on Rajendraji comments. If one has a great desire for the Divine truth if only originating from the mind of the curious thinker, but an honest thinker who keeps her/his pre-conceived ideas out of the process. Allowing Divine Lord to help in the process, trusting in the outcome, regardless of what the Ego may say or do, trust, trust. Slowly the Ego gets broken, with each break the divine within shines a little more, a little more. Like cracks in shell that covers your spiritual heart. You become more and more humble and loving, you do not look away, when a tortured soul with cerebral palsy drooling, searches out your eyes, that soul wants contact, the divine within looks out with compassion, maybe for the first time that soul may see GOD in the eyes of stranger. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) -------------------------------- Jai Shree Krishna I am relieved to see the question getting reframed. Certainly the advice of Jee Jee Shashikalaji has worked. Indeed, detergent prices are soaring. There is one " sher " (a two liner) Dil ke aaine main hai, tasveere yaar, jab jara gardan jhukaai dekh lee. The Beloved (Paramatma) is right inside your heart, simply bow your head and see Him. The lady who lost the gold chain in fact need only to tilt her head down, she will find the gold chain. That God is inside you, in your heart is a proven fact. (Gita 18:61). Now " bowing " your head means surrender. It can also mean throwing that thing which makes your head straight/swollen (Ego) into the dust bin. Be ego less. With Ego, your mind, intellect, sense organs, organs of action and your body all will rest where they actually should - in the dust bin. You alone, Self then shall " sight " the Paramatma - effortlessly. So either surrender (Gita 18:66 read with 7:14) or disconnect with world by becoming egoless. Choose Vineetji - what ever is convenient to you. Rajendra J Bohra Narayana Narayana -------------------------- Jai Hanuman Bhaiyyaji ! What a question? Typical question Jee ! Who will sight !! Who will see the gold chain? Who ever has lost it Jee, will have to see ! Simple common sense Jee ! Who is suffering ? Who is not peaceful? Jeeva or somebody else? Who ever who needs peace will sight that, Jee. So Brahmaji will not come to help you Jee. You have lost that gold chain Jee. Only your " self " will have to help your " self " Jee! Bhaiyyaji, my advice is that do not go into the chakkar (web) of this " sight " at all Jee. They are high level fundas Jee. Simply close your eyes, Jee. So that the world is out of your focus Jee. You will find the gold chain, Bhaiyya. Simply close your eyes, then what will open is your inner eye, and your job will be done. Closing your eyes means " cut off " from the world. Disconnect, Jee! Laali Laali sab kahe , sabke palle laal ! Gaanth khol dekhe nahin , taate phire kangaal !! Every body says I want diamond, I want diamond . The diamond is in the person of every body. No body ( Alas ! No body searches the self) opens the knot of pocket, and instead keeps loitering in the world, Penniless like a beggar - (again crying I want diamond, I want diamond) !! That " knot " , that " gaanth " is your union with inert, with world. Just open it, just separate the two ropes. You are home, Bhaiyyaji. Read Ramayan - Jad chetan ki granthi - the knot of sentient and inert ! Open that knot Jee. Don't ask again, who will open that, Jee. Clear, Jee ? Brother, Jee !! Namaste Jee ! Shashikala -------------------------- That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to " go there " . Perfect recap ! I would only put " go there " since this cannot have the same cannotation of our daily usage. Remember, || Na tatra chakshurgacchati na vaggacchati no manah || None of the faculties under your control can ever enter there, be it the body organs, or the senses, or the mind, or the intellect, or anything else that you think you can manipulate for the simple reason that we cannot cognize anything unless a change is super- imposed on everything. Accordingly, all our faculties are built around the change alone; the change perceived within them due to their limitations. For example, our visual faculty is designed to receive electro-magentic waves of certain frequencies. We all know that electro-magnetic frequencies are filling our environment in all ranges, but we can see only certain colors - violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red. We cannot perceive ultra-violet and infra-red rays. Same way, each set of brain cells can receive only certain range of frequencies which distinguish colors as such within themselves. So is our audio system, we cannot hear sub-sonic and super-sonic sounds that surpass our limitations. Therefore, it is futile to imagine to " go to the unlimmitted " depending thoroughly on " the limited faculties " . 1. What does it mean to have our sight there? This is an excellent distillation of our ignorance. Understanding that The Changeless cannot be perceived by the faculties that insist on changes, the only way " to have our sight there " is to not have one! || Yada panchavatishthante gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taam aahuh paramaam gatim || " Our sight is there " when all our faculties - body, senses, mind and even intellect, come to a halt! That state is the Supreme State, says Yama. In other words, when our association transcends all our activities within our cognition, our sight can possible be there. The true silence is not terminating our faculties physically, but to let them " be " rather than craving to " have " . 2. Who will have their sight in that direction? One who understands a reason for one's miseries would definitely attempt to turn toward the solution even if it is a potential one. Any surviving being is programmed to carry on this feat. A seeker is also a survivor, at least to start with. The only difference is - a spiritual seeker perpetually penetrates into the apparent reason to its roots to see that he himself is the true cause for all his miseries and he himself is the true hurdle for overcoming his miseries as well. Therefore, he is bound to turn " his sight " away from the true cause for his miseries - the ego, the identities, the ownerships, toward a potential solution which is deviod of all these limitations. 3. How can the sight be made to go in that direction? This question could be qualified further, " What is keeping our sight away from this direction? " Definitely, our urge " to live " , Projection, protection and propagation of ego, identities and ownerships. Then the question, " How can the sight be made to go in that direction? " is self-evident. The sight automatically turns toward The Eternity by learning " to die " , Rejection, reduction and removal of ego, identities and ownerships. Learning " to be " rather than " to have " . Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Dear spiritual Brothers and Sisters, God is formless and ineffable and to describe God even words recoil. He lives within you and you live within Him like billions of living cells live within you and you live within the billions of cells. We each of us (including all animate and inanimate life/things) are all living cell of God. Maya creates a golden dazzling disc and hides God from us even though we live within Him. Thus the greatest miracle Maya (cosmic delusion) creates is that we search for God every where though He is within us as our guide, friend and philosopher. God is the first Guru (preceptor) and Prakrti- the divine Nature- our supreme Mother is the perfect Guru and guides us through her Rta (cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order). These Rts (cosmic laws) even the blind person can read and follow. A large number of Rta are mentioned in Vedas. The entire social, moral and physical disorder starts when we do not follow the guidelines given by God living within us and Rta laid down by the divine Nature known as Aditi- infinite, Daivi-divine and Devaki-mother of all beings of light (devas/devis) like Usha, Prithvi, Agni, Indraith kind regards, P.K.Sabhlok =================================================================== QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 ----------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram All respondent - brothers and sister Shashikalaji have been generous ! All my questions are unanswered. My request was that - these questions that were put forth in front of you, they were not simply for the purpose of knowing. This is my personal distress, that I have been unable to comprehend a simple, straight-forward point, which you all have understood. Shraddhey Swamiji had said that there is nothing that can be more easier than this - Paramaatmaa is already ever-attained from the very beginning. This itself is my distress. When Paramaatmaa is already attained, then for the purpose of attaining, does He become unattained as Swamiji has often said - that Paramaatmaa does not have the strength to distance Himself from us. QUESTION: My distress is that how do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him? I do not know the way, therefore I have started troubling you all, otherwise what distress could there be? Gita-talk moderator, this is not just my own distress, there must be many others like me that have this question, that are aimlessly wandering and lost. You all please explain, that in this state, what should I do? My humble pranaams to all, Sarvottam IN HINDI Shree Hari Ram Ram Sabhi utterdaataa udaarmanaa bandhuo evam bahen Shashikalaji ko ! mere sabhi prashna anutterit hai. Meraa anurodh hai ki maatre jaanne ke liye meine ye prashna aapke samaksh nahin rakhe hai, ye meir kathinaayi hai, meri aapdaa hai ki mein ek seedhee si baat nahin samajh sak rahaa jo aap sabhi samajh chuke hai. Shraddhey Swamiji ne kahaa thaa ki isse saral kuch ho hi nahin saktaa kyonki Paramaatmaa to pahale se hi praapt hai. Bas yahin meri aapadaa hai. Jab Paramaatmaa praapt hai, toh praapt karneke liye hi Parmaatmaa apraapt ho jaayenge jo Swamiji kahete rahe ki Paramaatmaa ki dum nahin ki hamse door ho jaaye. Meri yahin aapdaa hai ki kaiseker Paramaatmaa ko apraapt kar loon aur fir kuch bhi karke praapt karoon . Mujhe raah nahin soojhti isliye aap sabko pareshaan karne lagaa varnaa koyi aapdaa hoti hi kyon ? Shri samvayakji, yeh meri hi vyaktigat aapdaa nahin hai anek mere sam ananboojhe prashna lekar bhatakane waale anek honge. Aap sabhi sujhaaye ki is sthithi mein hum kyaa kare ? Sabhi ko vinamre pranaam sahit Sarvottam -------------------------------- NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Dear Sadhaka, thank you for a good question. Many good responses have already been posted. Swamiji Maharaj has explained the answer to this question very clearly. When we ask what we should do to attain God, nothing is to be done by us, God cannot be attained by our doing something. The actions have a beginning and an end. The same applies to fruits of those actions too. This of course does not mean we stop doing any actions, Gitaji strongly emphasizes on performing our duty to the best of our ability. The only difference is that the actions are to be performed with a different attitude. We have to relinquish our ownership of these actions and the desire for the expectation of the fruits of these actions. Actions to be performed as an offering to God since everything belongs to Him including us and the instruments we do the actions with. Many verses in Gitaji speak to this subject, few of the verses are referenced here: Gita 9-27: " O son of Kunti (Arjuna), whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer as oblation to the sacred fire, whatever you bestow as a gift; whatever you do by way of penance, offer it all to Me " . Gita 9-28: " With your mind tuis esytablished in te Yoga of rebunciation, you will be freed from the bonds of Karma in the shape of good and evil consequences; and freed from them, you shall attain Me " . As a gaurantee to attain God, Swamiji Maharaj recommends for the devotee to accept the surrender to God (the path of Sharanagatih) through his " Panch Amritas " : 1. I am God's only and no body else's 2. Wherever I live, I live in his court (darbar) 3. Whatever good works I do, are for Him only 4. Whatever satvic I get is His blessing (prasad) only 5. With what I get from Him, I only serve his people Few of other Verses fro Gitaji: 8:14, 9:22, 15:7, 15:15, 18:46, 18:61, 18:66 ... Humble regards, Madan Kaura ------------------------------- Dear friend The distress that you endure is equal with everyone including the Arjun in the Bhagwat Gita. As I have explained in words on the construction of life, and so this I repeat. Every LIFE is a child born out of certain parent. Father is called PURUSH or Atma and mother is called PRAKRITI. On the desire of the mother, the father takes a SANKALP, and this sankalp takes form of LIFE where the mother (Prakriti) becomes CONTAINER and the father (purush) becomes CONTENT. Now in LIFE, the ATMA is not free but bonded by PRAKRITI in a SANKALP. In an analogy, atma is like water freely flowing in river and life is bottled water. The bottled water cannot leave the container in half way. It is therefore bound to do as per his/her swabhaav and carry out the function in a manner to co- exist with others in this world, and remain happy by skills and attitude provided by the Prakriti. This self realization of life is a work and the work itself is worship. The work is yourself and your work will change itself and so do you change. For example, a singer is to sing. Singing is the work. practice of singing is worship. As a result, snging improves and so is the singer. And this improvement comes by the satisfaction with discovery of the self. And the person knows that he has nothing to do with singing, and it is effotless and satisfying him/her self and to others; but it is not by choice and is the only way of life. That singer cannot become a businessman and if he/she does that, he will deteriorate his/her singing, and will be broke financially. Many people think that you can achieve the self realization by prayer or offering sweets in temples. This is not a correct way. Arjun was taught Bhagwat Gita in battle field, and not in a retreat of Himalaya. You or anyone can learn from sages but the war has to be fought by individual only, and without any help and only way is his/her swabhaav. You do not go anywhere or meet any one called paramatma but you were parmatma already and you only now known it by proper understanding through consistent and aware work. Kabir says is lali dekhan mai chali, jit dehi tit laal jaon main dekhun aapno, mai bhi ho gayi laal This means, we faulted in seeing ourself. best regards K G Misra ================================================================= PREVIOUS POSTING Hari Om Oh what a divine shape the deliberations have indeed taken ! Sarvottamji, do you recall the Bhajan so affectionnately sung by Swamiji and which played whole day unnterruptedly on T V channels on this nirvaan day? Meera Dasji is right. You are already in surrender zone. Where and what can be " aapda " now - O Son of God ? Naath thaare sharane ayo jee . O Nath thaare sharane ayo jee , Jache Jis tarah khel khilao the man chayoji ! Soch fikar ab saaro thaaren upar ayo jee , maim to ab nischint huyo antar harkhayo jee ! O Naath.... O Lord I have surrendered to you ! Now make me play and play with me, freely as you consider appropriate. All my worries and anxieties are now yours. I have now become " nischint " - worryless and my heart now is full of bliss ! Naath, play with me the way you want. Bojho sabhi utar gayo man ko , dukh bisrayo Jee! Chinta miti bade charano ro saharo payoo jee ! O Naath...... All weight on my mind is now gone ( mind has become light) I have forgotten all griefs, now that I have taken shelter of your most powerful feet. O Lord make me dance to your tunes. Jas apjash ab thaaro, main to daas kahayo jee. Man bhanwaro thare charan kamal par jaa liptayo jee Since I am only your servant now, all fame and ill fame is now only yours. My Mind has now become Bee and has stuck to your lotus feet. Really Sarvottamji, now why you should have distress ? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------- One can attain Paramatma mentally by concentrating on him, and this will in turn give the feeling of reaching him physically. The devotion to Him and total surrender will pave the way. One cannot chalk out a travel plan. Jai Krishna Padmashri Sampathkumar -------------------------------- Hari Om pranams to all seekars, My understanding of attained is as foolws: If we are dead no thought can arise in the dead body. Therefore life has to be there to give birth to the thought. THIS LIFE (GOD) which IS there already is the attained in the sense of Adhyatma.We should think of that LIFE before each thought as our REAL self every moment. This is 24 hrs meditation.WE must Live That which is Attained(GOD in us), as Sun shines without discrimination in this world, we must give LOVE to all friends and foes alike all the time is the practice. If I can feel the pain of the other as intensely as I feel my own one has attained THAT which is all pervading. If It is all pervading where is IT not? What is there more to attain? Love M.Nagaraju. ================================================================= Priy Aatman, The question itself is your answer. You said How do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him? I ask U why should U make Paramatmaa Unattained? And why U should try to Attain if it is already there? It is like throwing coin in your hand & then start searching it. For what good. Other way round if U cant feel attained, then, simply watch your heartbeats or Breathing & ask who is doing all this since your birth uninterruptedly. The answer will come. Thanks Hope it helps. Your valuable experience is invited. Pl. let me know what U felt. Raja Gurdasani. ------------------------------- " shraddhaa vaanlabhate jnaanam, tatparah saiyyetindriyah jnaanam labhvaa param shaantimchirenaadhi gacchyati. " (Gita 4:39) " yathaa kaashasthito nityam vaayuh sarvatra go mahaan tathaa sarvaani bhootaani matsthaaneetypadhaaraya " (Gita 9:3) Ahamaatamaa dudaakesha sarvabhootaashayasthitah ahamaadishva madhyamca bhootaanaamanta eva ca. " (Gita 10:20) There are few things in this world for which we don't ask any explanation e.g., Sun, Moon etc. We were told that it is Sun & it is Moon and we accepted it. We didn't asked for any explanation. The same is with God, we need not try to understand Him by explanation. We should just accept it. Its my most humble request to Sri Sarvottamji that please read Gita chapter seven and nine and you will get the answer to all your " unanswered questions " . Ram Ram Ashok Goenka ----------------------------- Hari Om Naham Karta Hari Karta I do not know if this is a simple case of misunderstanding arising out of particular usage of words (such as " attained " or " unattained " )or of substantive understanding. The " Attainment " of God without any explicit effort having been made in that direction or as implied in the statement " Paramatman is already ever-attained from the very beginning " - can only refer to the unconditional " divine grace " that characterizes everything without exception in creation. This is however just a starting point and a mere indication of potency of Jeevatama. It is the " ahankara " tatva, progenitor of " aham " - or " ego " which alienates us from this original state of divine grace and bliss. Coming to grips with this separation or alienation and retrieving the original state of divine grace and grace - is what is really " attaining " . Sri Krishnarpanamasthu Vijayendra Acharya ------------------------------- Dear Sadaks, In a moon light night a person gets afraid of his shadow. When he contemplates, he realizes that the shadow was from him obstructing light. First was ignorance, second was knowledge (realization). Soul is part and parcel of Paramatma, as such Bagavan said that the Atman is indestructible by any thing. The soul is Paramatma WHO illuminates all senses. Once soul leaves the body, the senses/organs becomes useless/decay. Now one should realizes that he is Atman not the body. Which many saints knew as such they offered themselves to be killed. Due to ignorance though one has the Paramatma within him (already in the body), he is searching around, not knowing he can see Paramatma within himself. Prahalad knew this and so he could not be destroyed by any elements. Gnaneswar knew this made the wall move like an airplane. Tukaram knew this and just went in Puspaka Viman from Vaikunt Stal at Devu Village-Poone to Vaikunt on the call of Sri Vishnu. This Quest for realization comes from within. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum So, in reading over so many wonderful and transcendental postings, I noticed one of my own which was needing some clarification. I am thinking that certainly the clarification would fit into the discussion of how to attain the Supreme. The story was there of a minister who was highly trusted by the king. The minister went everywhere with the king, and always gave good advice. One day the minister was put to the test of his worthiness, when the king asked him, first, " Can you show me God " , and secondly, " What is God doing " ? The first question has been addressed in the previous posting.....the presentation was somehow cut short without being clear......so, the small boy, the son of the minister, said to the king, " I will answer you second question, but please tell me, you are sitting on the throne, and I am done here on the floor. Is this the appropriate position for one who is accepting himself to be a student? The king immediately understood the gist of the child's statement, and he placed the child on the throne out of respect. Then the child said, " This is exactly what God is doing. He is taking someone from a high position, and putting them in a lowly position, and someone from a low position and taking them high, all due to the results of their actions. " The king was very pleased with the child, and offered the father so much wealth. So, now let us consider one step further; a thought which just came to mind as I read over various postings. If our greatest wealth is a loving relationship with the Lord, if that becomes our source of happiness, joy, and our only purpose for being, then we will ask nothing, absolutely NOTHING from the Lord accept to have Him as our friend, or child, or lover, or to in some way be allowed to render service to Him. If enough of the world had this focus, not to desire anything save and except service, oh, how pleasant that would be for the Lord! He wouldn't have to feel the need to fulfill so many material desires, of so many different varieties. Then, truly, His presence could be manifest, in more and more solid form, with no concern that, " Oh, I don't have time for pastimes in this world, I have so many arrangements to make for those who are " needing " on the materialistic level. " The bottom line, let me learn to never ask the Lord for anything except to render Him service. Most humbly, Mahalaksmi dasi ------------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Oh! Part of Supreme Consciousness, have you accepted, or not? Have you accepted - I am God's and only God is mine ? With a simple, straight forward heart, have you accepted? Only Giridhar Gopal is Mine, No one else is ! Yes! Now what is the distress? Now what is to be done to unattain Him? and what is to be done to attain Him? Now, where do you even exist? Now, everything is only His will. Now, where do you have any desire of your own at all? After acceptance, everything that is happening is according to His desire, His will. Because only He Is. Understood? There is nothing to be done by you. Whatever was to be done, has been done. And that happens only one time. After marriage, when your daughter left to go to her new home, did you send her off with wheat flour, for her rotis? Wasn't all arranged for her and taken care off thereafter by her husband? Everything has already been arranged for you, as well by Paramatama. There is nothing to be done. There is no distress. Oh! part of God, you are already - fearless, free of worries, free of doubts and free of all grief! Meera Das, Ram Ram IN HINDI Hey Ishvar ke ANSH, Aapne ek baar sweekaar kar liyaa, ke nahin? Mein Bhagwaan kaa hoon, aur kewal Bhagwaan hi mere hai ! Haa ! sweekaar KIYAA? Saral hrdey se, drdhtaa poorvak, sweekar kiyaa? Mere toh Giridhar Gopal, doosero ne koyi ! Haa Maharaaj! Ab kyaa aapdaa? Ab kyaa apraapt karnaa hai, aur kyaa praapt karnaa hai, aapko ? Aap thodi ne hai ? Ab toh unkihi marji. Aapki ab kyaa iccha? Ab toh unkihi marji ke hisaab se sab kuch hogaa. Ab to Aap kahaan hai, Woh hi toh hai !!! Aap Samjhe ? Kuch bhi nahin karnaa hai aapko ! Jo honaa thaa woh ho gayaa. Woh ek hi baar hotaa hai. Aapki ladki ki shaadi ke baad, aapne use aataa dekar sasuraal bhejaa thaa, uski roti ke liye ? Sab vyavasthaa ho gayi ne, shaadi ke baad? Aapki bhi toh sab vyavasthaa Bhagwaan ne kar rakhi hai. Kuch bhi nahin karnaa hai. Kuch bhi aapadaa nahin hai. He Ansh nirbhay, nischint, nishank, nishauk ho chuke ho Aap! Meera das, Ram Ram ------------------------------- Jai Shree Krishna Jai Ho ! Jee Jee !! Sarvottamji , now the real answers will flow to your questions. " Jara saamne to aao Challiye, chhup chhup chhalane main kya raaj hai, yoon chhup na sakega Paramatma , meri aatma ki yeh awaaj hai " Come to our sight , O Unmanifest ! What is the secret of remaining hidden , and playing tricks on us ? You will not be able to hide yourself from us O Paramatma ! This is the voice of our Atma ( individual soul ) (to Paramatma) ! " Teri preet pe bada hamen naaz hai, tere haath main hamaari sab laaj hai " Yoon chhup na sakega Paramatma , meri atma ki yeh awaaj hai. We are proud of your affection for us, O Lord. Our honour is in your hands now, O Lord. You will not be able to hide from us any more !! Rajendra Bohra Narayana Narayana - Dear Vineetji, It is great to see that your desire to realise God is increasing. This is a very good sign. Keep the desire burning with greater and greater intensity. This itself will take you there. In an earlier posting on the subject of 'Gunas and Self Evolution', I had tried to explain something similar to your question,. For your ready reference let me repeat it as below: Quote There are four things that come between 'Jeeva' and 'Atma'. These are man (mind), buddhi (intellect0, Chitta (I do not know the right English word for this. Perhaps we can call it wisdom) and 'Ahankar'. These four constitute 'Jeeva'. Only when we are able to cross (anihilate) all these, we will realise God. So long as we are Jeeva, we need to make an effort to realise God. It may be widely believed that we can pursue God only when we are 'Sattwik'. This may not be wholly true, because as per God himself, every one has an equal right to achieve Him. Besides, God is beyond any Gunas. Then where do we start? According to me starting point of this journey is the desire to realise God. This is very clear from your question that you want to start the journey. The next step is to attack the first impediment, which is the mind. Mind is perhaps the greatest creation of nature. It has a tendency to become what ever company it keeps. Currently we keep the company of the world. So it becomes worldly. So let us first change this company. Let us start indulging in literature, which helps us to move in that direction. Also, let us start keeping company of such people, who are moving in this line. This, however, can be dangerous because in today's world, every one who is a kathakar (or a preacher) proclaims himself as 'Siddha'. The real test in such a situation would be to assess if this person has any lust for money. If yes, he can't help us as God can't be purchased with money. In pursuit of God, please ignore what Gunas (prakrity, svabhaav) we are born with. No amount of effort, including wishing them away (believing that these are not in us) will help. But our devotion will automatically take care of that. We should just proceed. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I have not used the word " you " , while addressing your question. This is because we are all in the same boat. Hence this answer is for all of us including myself to remember again and again. Unquote To supplement, may I give a very simple experiment for you to try. Place a coin at the bottom of the bucket full of water. Stir the water. Try if you can see the coin. Now allow the water to become still. Again see if you can now see the coin. Stirred water is like a stirred mind and still water is like a still mind. In both cases the coin is there but in one case, we can not see it and in another, we can clearly see it. If you are still not clear, please feel free to ask. Meanwhile, I strongly suggest that you please read commentaries on Gitaji (Tatv Vivechini Teeka or Sadhak Sanjivini Teeka - Both are published by Gita Press). A.H.Dalmia Let me try to understand and offer some solace to Sarvottama.....in his quest to " attain " the Absolute. It is my understanding that the Absolute is unlimited, infinite, every increasing. Indeed, I have heard it said many times that the Lord does not even know the limits of His own ability to expand. How can one " attain " such a Being? But, He becomes completely controlled out of love, and subservient to his bhakta who follows the process to attain Him. that process, given in Bhagavad Gita by Lord Krsna.....who says, " In the beginning, I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the Sun god Vivasvan, who in turn imparted it to Iksvaku, who in turn imparted it to Manu, the father of mankind. In this way, the science as it is has been handed down. " So, who has handed down to you the understanding of how to " attain " God? What does " attaining " mean to you? Does it mean that you see Him sitting beside you, when you honor your meals, offering your food mentally, toward His mouth before it enters yours? It certainly could mean this....but not unless you have the seed of bhakti, the bhakti lata bija. And then, that lata, or creeper, must be watered daily, or it will wither and die. Only by constant hearing and chanting, under guidance, will your heart come to the level of spontaneous love, so much so that you see the Lord always next to you, in His beautiful two-armed form, sometimes holding a flute, perhaps at other times a guitar, or lute, or harp .....WHY NOT? He is unlimited, but He is not a cheap commodity......if you want to meet the president of the United States, or ANY other country, do you just walk up to the door of the capital and demand, " Let me meet the president! " ? More than likely, such a person would go to jail. But if you find someone very near and dear to the ruler, perhaps his cousin, or son, or daughter, that person can easily bring you directly into the office or even the dining room or kitchen of that great ruler.....and you will have successfully come into the inner heart of that person who is so unattainable for the masses. He will accept you immediately as one of His family, by virtue of your connection with other family member. So, if you can find a person who is so dear to Lord, who is sitting with Him constantly, speaking with HIm in a regular way, holding Him close moment by moment, then you will also be able to come to that coveted platform. Otherwise........well, hell may one day freeze over, it could happen. Honestly, I am thinking that if one truly DID attain the Lord, for even a moment, he or she would be on such a high level....certainly they would never feel attraction to anything in this world, and would be most anxious to find those who could constantly rekindle and spark that " uddipani " or stimuli, to continue remembering even that one moment when the Lord was present. Truly, have any of us attained the Lord, even briefly? If we did, our thirst to hold Him close would be beyond description. Nothing would matter save and except to continue rendering Him service, serving His beloved devotees, and holding onto that precious remembrance. Sincerely, with Love and affection Mahalakshmi dasi Hari Om Both the question of Sarvottamji and reply by his Jee Jee Shashikalaji might have melted and moved many hearts ! Indeed we use mind more than the heart. Sarvottamji you are definitely nearer to Him than many of us. Your bhavas (inner expressions) are guiding principles for all of us. I salute you-Sir- from the last core of my heart. But I have complaint with Shashikalaji. Why Sarvottamji should recommend you only? What wrong we have done, Jee? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ================================================================= PREVIOUS POSTING Jai Hanuman Namaste Bhaiyya Shree Jee, you appear to be quite anxious to meet Daddy. Remain so Bhaiyya- " Kabhi to Deendayal ke bhanak padegi kaan " ( He will have to lend His ears to you). In the end all have to depend upon His grace only. " Jab tujhase na sulajhe tere ulajhe hue dhandhe, Bhagwan ke insaaf pe sab chhod de Bande! Khud hi teri mushkil ko woh asaan karega, jo tu nahin kar paaya woh Bhagwaan karega " (When you are not able to solve your problems, it is better to leave that to the grace and justice of Bhagwaan. He Himself will solve your problem . What you have not been able to do, Bhagwaan will do) Have that trust, Bhaiyya Shree on that Deendayal. No one has ever come back from His regime empty handed. " Hum tumhe jaane tum nahin jaano, aisa kabhi na ho sakta-Pita apne Baalak se bichhad ke sukh se kabhi naa so sakta " ( That we know Him and He does not know us- it can never happen. No father can sleep peacefully , remaining away from His son) I pray I too have similar anxiety (vyaakulata) like you for Papa the Great. Swamiji was right, Papa can not distance Himself away from us. He has no powers to do that. He will dance on your fingers, Bhaiyya Shree ! In this life itself ! ! Where can He run away ? From you ?? No He can't. When you meet with Him, recommend for me also, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - -Shree Hari- I had a thought that may help Vineetji to focus his understanding. There is a medical condition, whereby a person is totally blind, often caused by trauma. The doctors and experts find that his eyes are perfect, his brain is undamaged, he can see, but; his mind cannot. The cure is for him to understand that he is not blind, (the correct therapy is required). It is like that you understand . With Respect and Divine Love , Mike (Mike Keenor) ------------------------------ PREVIOUS QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions that have been asked are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack in understanding, and that which is ever attained, to want to attain it, is deceit. That which is ever attained, is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is - 1) What does it mean to have our sight there? 2) Who will have their sight there ? 3) How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a answer. Vineet Sarvottam =========================================================== Hari Om Q1 What does it mean to have our sight there. Ans to realise/remember/ to experience His presence in you. Q2 Who will have their sight there? Ans What is this question? Paramatma is not going to come and have sight there in your place, nor He will send any messenger to catch hold of your eyes and turn them using some machine..Nor any neighbor or relative will come to help you.. Body is inert. World itself is entangled. Who remained? Jeeva ! You yourself ! !. " Self " not " non self " . Ego, mind, intellect, body they are " non self " . Hence you - yourself. Who did you think will come to your rescue ? Q3- How can the sight be made to go there? Ans By making the sight withdrawn from the world. Sight's role ends there. The sight does not then will have to be made to go there or anywhere ? The element will come before the sight automatically. You have to just Stay Put- thereafter. Just be Silent , in Repose ! There is no need to do anything thereafter. Just withdraw your sight from the world- that is all you have to. Rest is actionless. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - -Shree Hari- I wish to dwell a little on Rajendraji comments. If one has a great desire for the Divine truth if only originating from the mind of the curious thinker, but an honest thinker who keeps her/his pre-conceived ideas out of the process. Allowing Divine Lord to help in the process, trusting in the outcome, regardless of what the Ego may say or do, trust, trust. Slowly the Ego gets broken, with each break the divine within shines a little more, a little more. Like cracks in shell that covers your spiritual heart. You become more and more humble and loving, you do not look away, when a tortured soul with cerebral palsy drooling, searches out your eyes, that soul wants contact, the divine within looks out with compassion, maybe for the first time that soul may see GOD in the eyes of stranger. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) -------------------------------- Jai Shree Krishna I am relieved to see the question getting reframed. Certainly the advice of Jee Jee Shashikalaji has worked. Indeed, detergent prices are soaring. There is one " sher " (a two liner) Dil ke aaine main hai, tasveere yaar, jab jara gardan jhukaai dekh lee. The Beloved (Paramatma) is right inside your heart, simply bow your head and see Him. The lady who lost the gold chain in fact need only to tilt her head down, she will find the gold chain. That God is inside you, in your heart is a proven fact. (Gita 18:61). Now " bowing " your head means surrender. It can also mean throwing that thing which makes your head straight/swollen (Ego) into the dust bin. Be ego less. With Ego, your mind, intellect, sense organs, organs of action and your body all will rest where they actually should - in the dust bin. You alone, Self then shall " sight " the Paramatma - effortlessly. So either surrender (Gita 18:66 read with 7:14) or disconnect with world by becoming egoless. Choose Vineetji - what ever is convenient to you. Rajendra J Bohra Narayana Narayana -------------------------- Jai Hanuman Bhaiyyaji ! What a question? Typical question Jee ! Who will sight !! Who will see the gold chain? Who ever has lost it Jee, will have to see ! Simple common sense Jee ! Who is suffering ? Who is not peaceful? Jeeva or somebody else? Who ever who needs peace will sight that, Jee. So Brahmaji will not come to help you Jee. You have lost that gold chain Jee. Only your " self " will have to help your " self " Jee! Bhaiyyaji, my advice is that do not go into the chakkar (web) of this " sight " at all Jee. They are high level fundas Jee. Simply close your eyes, Jee. So that the world is out of your focus Jee. You will find the gold chain, Bhaiyya. Simply close your eyes, then what will open is your inner eye, and your job will be done. Closing your eyes means " cut off " from the world. Disconnect, Jee! Laali Laali sab kahe , sabke palle laal ! Gaanth khol dekhe nahin , taate phire kangaal !! Every body says I want diamond, I want diamond . The diamond is in the person of every body. No body ( Alas ! No body searches the self) opens the knot of pocket, and instead keeps loitering in the world, Penniless like a beggar - (again crying I want diamond, I want diamond) !! That " knot " , that " gaanth " is your union with inert, with world. Just open it, just separate the two ropes. You are home, Bhaiyyaji. Read Ramayan - Jad chetan ki granthi - the knot of sentient and inert ! Open that knot Jee. Don't ask again, who will open that, Jee. Clear, Jee ? Brother, Jee !! Namaste Jee ! Shashikala -------------------------- That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to " go there " . Perfect recap ! I would only put " go there " since this cannot have the same cannotation of our daily usage. Remember, || Na tatra chakshurgacchati na vaggacchati no manah || None of the faculties under your control can ever enter there, be it the body organs, or the senses, or the mind, or the intellect, or anything else that you think you can manipulate for the simple reason that we cannot cognize anything unless a change is super- imposed on everything. Accordingly, all our faculties are built around the change alone; the change perceived within them due to their limitations. For example, our visual faculty is designed to receive electro-magentic waves of certain frequencies. We all know that electro-magnetic frequencies are filling our environment in all ranges, but we can see only certain colors - violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red. We cannot perceive ultra-violet and infra-red rays. Same way, each set of brain cells can receive only certain range of frequencies which distinguish colors as such within themselves. So is our audio system, we cannot hear sub-sonic and super-sonic sounds that surpass our limitations. Therefore, it is futile to imagine to " go to the unlimmitted " depending thoroughly on " the limited faculties " . 1. What does it mean to have our sight there? This is an excellent distillation of our ignorance. Understanding that The Changeless cannot be perceived by the faculties that insist on changes, the only way " to have our sight there " is to not have one! || Yada panchavatishthante gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taam aahuh paramaam gatim || " Our sight is there " when all our faculties - body, senses, mind and even intellect, come to a halt! That state is the Supreme State, says Yama. In other words, when our association transcends all our activities within our cognition, our sight can possible be there. The true silence is not terminating our faculties physically, but to let them " be " rather than craving to " have " . 2. Who will have their sight in that direction? One who understands a reason for one's miseries would definitely attempt to turn toward the solution even if it is a potential one. Any surviving being is programmed to carry on this feat. A seeker is also a survivor, at least to start with. The only difference is - a spiritual seeker perpetually penetrates into the apparent reason to its roots to see that he himself is the true cause for all his miseries and he himself is the true hurdle for overcoming his miseries as well. Therefore, he is bound to turn " his sight " away from the true cause for his miseries - the ego, the identities, the ownerships, toward a potential solution which is deviod of all these limitations. 3. How can the sight be made to go in that direction? This question could be qualified further, " What is keeping our sight away from this direction? " Definitely, our urge " to live " , Projection, protection and propagation of ego, identities and ownerships. Then the question, " How can the sight be made to go in that direction? " is self-evident. The sight automatically turns toward The Eternity by learning " to die " , Rejection, reduction and removal of ego, identities and ownerships. Learning " to be " rather than " to have " . Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Dear spiritual Brothers and Sisters, God is formless and ineffable and to describe God even words recoil. He lives within you and you live within Him like billions of living cells live within you and you live within the billions of cells. We each of us (including all animate and inanimate life/things) are all living cell of God. Maya creates a golden dazzling disc and hides God from us even though we live within Him. Thus the greatest miracle Maya (cosmic delusion) creates is that we search for God every where though He is within us as our guide, friend and philosopher. God is the first Guru (preceptor) and Prakrti- the divine Nature- our supreme Mother is the perfect Guru and guides us through her Rta (cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order). These Rts (cosmic laws) even the blind person can read and follow. A large number of Rta are mentioned in Vedas. The entire social, moral and physical disorder starts when we do not follow the guidelines given by God living within us and Rta laid down by the divine Nature known as Aditi- infinite, Daivi-divine and Devaki-mother of all beings of light (devas/devis) like Usha, Prithvi, Agni, Indraith kind regards, P.K.Sabhlok =================================================================== QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2008 Report Share Posted September 4, 2008 QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram All respondent - brothers and sister Shashikalaji have been generous ! All my questions are unanswered. My request was that - these questions that were put forth in front of you, they were not simply for the purpose of knowing. This is my personal distress, that I have been unable to comprehend a simple, straight-forward point, which you all have understood. Shraddhey Swamiji had said that there is nothing that can be more easier than this - Paramaatmaa is already ever-attained from the very beginning. This itself is my distress. When Paramaatmaa is already attained, then for the purpose of attaining, does He become unattained as Swamiji has often said - that Paramaatmaa does not have the strength to distance Himself from us. QUESTION: My distress is that how do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him? I do not know the way, therefore I have started troubling you all, otherwise what distress could there be? Gita-talk moderator, this is not just my own distress, there must be many others like me that have this question, that are aimlessly wandering and lost. You all please explain, that in this state, what should I do? My humble pranaams to all, Sarvottam IN HINDI Shree Hari Ram Ram Sabhi utterdaataa udaarmanaa bandhuo evam bahen Shashikalaji ko ! mere sabhi prashna anutterit hai. Meraa anurodh hai ki maatre jaanne ke liye meine ye prashna aapke samaksh nahin rakhe hai, ye meir kathinaayi hai, meri aapdaa hai ki mein ek seedhee si baat nahin samajh sak rahaa jo aap sabhi samajh chuke hai. Shraddhey Swamiji ne kahaa thaa ki isse saral kuch ho hi nahin saktaa kyonki Paramaatmaa to pahale se hi praapt hai. Bas yahin meri aapadaa hai. Jab Paramaatmaa praapt hai, toh praapt karneke liye hi Parmaatmaa apraapt ho jaayenge jo Swamiji kahete rahe ki Paramaatmaa ki dum nahin ki hamse door ho jaaye. Meri yahin aapdaa hai ki kaiseker Paramaatmaa ko apraapt kar loon aur fir kuch bhi karke praapt karoon . Mujhe raah nahin soojhti isliye aap sabko pareshaan karne lagaa varnaa koyi aapdaa hoti hi kyon ? Shri samvayakji, yeh meri hi vyaktigat aapdaa nahin hai anek mere sam ananboojhe prashna lekar bhatakane waale anek honge. Aap sabhi sujhaaye ki is sthithi mein hum kyaa kare ? Sabhi ko vinamre pranaam sahit Sarvottam -------------------------------- NEW POSTING Loving Divine, Pranam. Many beautiful answers have been given so I am going to try a different approach & let's see if that helps Sarvottamji. In past posting I had given this example of space ( /message/277 ) so if you understand it at least intellectually, you will understand the attained and unattained concepts. In our understanding space is the subtlest of all gross aspect. It is all pervading like Parmaatmaa. Where space is not? The space can not be cut, burnt, wet or dried out like Parmaatmaa (BG 2:23). Do you agree? Everything happens in space whether you know it or not, whether you like it or not, whether you desire it or not, correct? Space is within you and outside you, it is above & below you, it has surrounded you, it even exist without you, isn't it? So without space you can not exist, can you? So space is attained already without your knowledge as it is part of you but it is unattained because you have not realized your existence in space every moment of your living. Am I making any sense? So everything is known to space as space is just one body. Like if a thorn is stuck in our foot, our entire body knows about it. Similarly, anything happens in space, it knows about it so it is not only all pervading but it is also omniscient. So if you can relate to this space example and now think of Parmaatmaa/Brahman, it is the subtlest of all, subtler than the space. How can we live without it? It is attained already but due to our ignorance or unawareness of it we call it unattained and try to attain it. But because it is already attained - part of us, we don't attain it but just end up becoming aware of it in every moment. Hope this helps in reducing some of your stress. God bless you. love & humble regards, always at Thy Lotus Feet Manjula Patel ------------------------------- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " It is wonderful to jump to a sinless position as suggested by Akka Shashikala if I could … I truly wish so … but, a seasoned sinner that I am, I and others of the kind need slaps on our cheeks and even through our hearts as the great Purandara Dasa begged Lord Vitthala to do once. A doting sister (Akka) is not enough and may even spoil the already spoiled ignorant siblings. Therefore, all the circus of Gnyana (thoughts) and Karma (actions) in the name of Sadhana. Already, the above statement has attracted the wrath on its negative cannotation. Maybe, it is time, to look at its positive side to boost our progress. It requires some effort to seek the positive side of an apparently negative statement ... let us go through the drill ... Spirituality seeks The Freedom, The Completeness ever established within everything including a human individual and therefore anchored into THAT as such. Soceity being based on hegemonial discremination has no choice but to apply initial and boundary conditions on each of its constituent through the environment it provides. Such a hegemonial social domain is the result of the same hegemonial urge for survival from the constituent elements. In a way, a soceity is a composite individual. In fact, even the so called individuals are pretty composite without their knowledge. An individual spell-bound by the environmental attractions of life is split between these two forces - spirit and soceity; and comes to equilibrium between the two in everyday activities. However, such equilibrium is corrupt with the confusion looming around the individual about nature of the soceity and boiling within about the nature his spirit ... and falls apart as soon as it is established. Thanks to the chaos around and within, one suffers directly and often indirectly in the name of enjoying. SIN is something not acceptable, irritating, harmful, dangerous, fearsome, … inducing miseries in a person/soceity. Virtues are something that protects an individual/soceity from the wrath of the sins. The virtues are often perceived/prescribed as the negatives of the sins with obvious intuition as if to diminish/control/suppress the effects of the sins just like a vaccine would work on the germs. Therefore, virtues are not really different from the sins just like the vaccines are not very different from the germs. Just like vaccines, the virtues help individuals tune their behavior for their best survival which is often misquoted as " enjoying life " . Accordingly, sins and virtues are perceived variantly by individuals depending on one's depth and spread of confusion between one's social needs and spiritual awareness inculcated in the person(s) through his actions, thoughts and experiences. There is no guarantee that a sin remains a sin forever and everywhere and so is a virtue. The soceity keeps its emphasis on the environment (outward attractions to an individual) while spirituality keeps its focus at The Spirit - the inherent freedom and completeness (Purnatva). The only problem I see in the above statement is the confusion between the spiritual aspirations and social attractions! Nothing surprising!! We do only that all through our lives!!! " Forgiveness from God " is a slogan befitting the soceity which tries to keep its subject under control weilding fear. State law is its frontier and religion is its back bone. The law threatens, " If you don't abide, you will be punished now! " Religion adds, " if not now, definitely later ... if not, surely after death!! " However, the soceity cannot make a mistake of letting one to commit sins - that is bad planning. Therefore, the first part of the sentences raises alarms in every mind, " How dare he says one should commit sins to receive God's grace?! " We have already seen such reactions. Forgiveness is an act of acknowledging a sin and saying it is OK! It is acceptable in social circumstances. The punished is obviously angered. If the anger of the punished is more dangerous to the sustenance and strength (health) of the soceity than the commited sin, common sense suggests " forgive it " , may be with a warning. Soceity uses this carrot, " God forgives you " with a catch IF you atone your sins by doing certain services which obviously promotes soceity's health further. Therefore, the second part is very desirable from social perspective. But from spiritual perspective, The God cannot observe a sin as He remains The Absolute with no dualistic relativity such as good and bad. Then, how can He forgive? Also, there is nothing other than Her. Then, whom can She forgive?? Also, the misery inflicted in the person due to a sin is instantaneous leaving no scope for forgiveness any more. Therefore, second part of the statement is nonsense from this angle. First part of the statement makes sense from spiritual persepctive - only a sinner has an opportunity to become pious. Simple logic - if one is already pious how can he/she become pious? Of course, only a sinner has chance to become pious! Seriously, though others may declare a person to be a sinner, the person remains virtuous in one's pwn perception until one understands that one indeed has commited sin. Unlike social circumstances, spirituality is non-dual in the understanding of a sin as well as its solution. Only something that brings out misery within a person is a sin and its only solution is to be happy. Also, spirituality focuses at the removal of the causes for such miseries rather than providing symptomatic treatment like a social norm such as religion or law would attempt. Spirituality is the process of digging the root cause of the pain, the sin. The root cause being the ignorance and inertia wielded by an individual, one has to take the responsibility for all the miseries on oneself, the ego. It is not OK to say OK for this because the ego with its dual weaknesses will keep bringing in miseries one after the other till it takes responsibility of being a true sinner. Therefore, only the ego which has truely acknowledged itself as a sinner is the only sinner. The diagreeing ego will retain its post of purity with flase logic and is never a sinner till then. Therefore, only a sinner has a chance to atone its weaknesses by appreciating the activities around to adapt corrections in its behavior and to strengthen its true nature by true appreciation of itself: || Aatmanaa vindate veeryam vidyayaa vindate amritham || The sinless state is that of Shwetaketu who uttered, " Now I know! You are nothing but Shwetaketu!! " when a spear thrown by a soldier tore his heart, " This body that was identified as Shwetaketu, the soldier and the spear that is piercing through this body are all nothing but YOU. Why should I lament in between either way? Who am I to do that? " That is the Parama Gati - the ultimate melting point - for Bhakti, Gnyana as well as Karma where all the differences mitigate to be one with The One. If you happen to desire to attain such a state, you have to be a sinner - the one who knows one's true sin, deviation from one's natural state of presence, The Freedom and The Completeness. Respects. Naga Narayana. ------------------------------- Dear Sadhak, One simple example for yr querry- 1. when we stand in front of a mirror and the mirror is dusty we can not see ourselves, as soon as we clean the dust we can see our image clearly. same way we(brahman) have been covered with Maya(illusion), so we are unable to realise that we are God(or God's ansh). As soon as we clear the dust of Maya, our pure devine Self shines through. Just as mirror was there before clearing the dust and after clearing the dust, same way God is always within/without us, He is everywhere, only our illusion of " I " cover our true self. So now we donot need to " unattained " what is already there. We just have to drop our false notion of " I " . Contemplating on " Who am I ? " helps. Gitaji Chapter 2 explains our true self. What to do to realise God or our true Self ? 1. Meditate, meditate and meditate. I am sure soon all answers will come to you without any effort. 2. Read, contemplate and practice Gitaji . 3. Be careful of the mind activities. Mind loves to create confusion, boredom, distress and happiness, unhappiness, and all kinds of duality. God or Self is above duality, above our Mind and thoughts. So watching our own mind, without indulging in its pattern helps a lot. Watch yr breath, every single one of it, and mind will be quiet soon. Gitaji Chapter 2:15 Krishna says - Maya covered the true self, but through His grace our ignorance can be removed... He is always here with all of us to remove our ignorance, because He is the one who created all this to play, the one who asks is Krishna and the one who answers is Krishna only, its all His divine play... I am sure in this play of Hide and Seek, you will find Him soon, with lots of love, A sadhika (Sadhna Karigar) ================================================================= PREVIOUS POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Dear Sadhaka, thank you for a good question. Many good responses have already been posted. Swamiji Maharaj has explained the answer to this question very clearly. When we ask what we should do to attain God, nothing is to be done by us, God cannot be attained by our doing something. The actions have a beginning and an end. The same applies to fruits of those actions too. This of course does not mean we stop doing any actions, Gitaji strongly emphasizes on performing our duty to the best of our ability. The only difference is that the actions are to be performed with a different attitude. We have to relinquish our ownership of these actions and the desire for the expectation of the fruits of these actions. Actions to be performed as an offering to God since everything belongs to Him including us and the instruments we do the actions with. Many verses in Gitaji speak to this subject, few of the verses are referenced here: Gita 9-27: " O son of Kunti (Arjuna), whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer as oblation to the sacred fire, whatever you bestow as a gift; whatever you do by way of penance, offer it all to Me " . Gita 9-28: " With your mind tuis esytablished in te Yoga of rebunciation, you will be freed from the bonds of Karma in the shape of good and evil consequences; and freed from them, you shall attain Me " . As a gaurantee to attain God, Swamiji Maharaj recommends for the devotee to accept the surrender to God (the path of Sharanagatih) through his " Panch Amritas " : 1. I am God's only and no body else's 2. Wherever I live, I live in his court (darbar) 3. Whatever good works I do, are for Him only 4. Whatever satvic I get is His blessing (prasad) only 5. With what I get from Him, I only serve his people Few of other Verses fro Gitaji: 8:14, 9:22, 15:7, 15:15, 18:46, 18:61, 18:66 ... Humble regards, Madan Kaura ------------------------------- Dear friend The distress that you endure is equal with everyone including the Arjun in the Bhagwat Gita. As I have explained in words on the construction of life, and so this I repeat. Every LIFE is a child born out of certain parent. Father is called PURUSH or Atma and mother is called PRAKRITI. On the desire of the mother, the father takes a SANKALP, and this sankalp takes form of LIFE where the mother (Prakriti) becomes CONTAINER and the father (purush) becomes CONTENT. Now in LIFE, the ATMA is not free but bonded by PRAKRITI in a SANKALP. In an analogy, atma is like water freely flowing in river and life is bottled water. The bottled water cannot leave the container in half way. It is therefore bound to do as per his/her swabhaav and carry out the function in a manner to co- exist with others in this world, and remain happy by skills and attitude provided by the Prakriti. This self realization of life is a work and the work itself is worship. The work is yourself and your work will change itself and so do you change. For example, a singer is to sing. Singing is the work. practice of singing is worship. As a result, snging improves and so is the singer. And this improvement comes by the satisfaction with discovery of the self. And the person knows that he has nothing to do with singing, and it is effotless and satisfying him/her self and to others; but it is not by choice and is the only way of life. That singer cannot become a businessman and if he/she does that, he will deteriorate his/her singing, and will be broke financially. Many people think that you can achieve the self realization by prayer or offering sweets in temples. This is not a correct way. Arjun was taught Bhagwat Gita in battle field, and not in a retreat of Himalaya. You or anyone can learn from sages but the war has to be fought by individual only, and without any help and only way is his/her swabhaav. You do not go anywhere or meet any one called paramatma but you were parmatma already and you only now known it by proper understanding through consistent and aware work. Kabir says is lali dekhan mai chali, jit dehi tit laal jaon main dekhun aapno, mai bhi ho gayi laal This means, we faulted in seeing ourself. best regards K G Misra ---- Hari Om Oh what a divine shape the deliberations have indeed taken ! Sarvottamji, do you recall the Bhajan so affectionnately sung by Swamiji and which played whole day unnterruptedly on T V channels on this nirvaan day? Meera Dasji is right. You are already in surrender zone. Where and what can be " aapda " now - O Son of God ? Naath thaare sharane ayo jee . O Nath thaare sharane ayo jee , Jache Jis tarah khel khilao the man chayoji ! Soch fikar ab saaro thaaren upar ayo jee , maim to ab nischint huyo antar harkhayo jee ! O Naath.... O Lord I have surrendered to you ! Now make me play and play with me, freely as you consider appropriate. All my worries and anxieties are now yours. I have now become " nischint " - worryless and my heart now is full of bliss ! Naath, play with me the way you want. Bojho sabhi utar gayo man ko , dukh bisrayo Jee! Chinta miti bade charano ro saharo payoo jee ! O Naath...... All weight on my mind is now gone ( mind has become light) I have forgotten all griefs, now that I have taken shelter of your most powerful feet. O Lord make me dance to your tunes. Jas apjash ab thaaro, main to daas kahayo jee. Man bhanwaro thare charan kamal par jaa liptayo jee Since I am only your servant now, all fame and ill fame is now only yours. My Mind has now become Bee and has stuck to your lotus feet. Really Sarvottamji, now why you should have distress ? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------- One can attain Paramatma mentally by concentrating on him, and this will in turn give the feeling of reaching him physically. The devotion to Him and total surrender will pave the way. One cannot chalk out a travel plan. Jai Krishna Padmashri Sampathkumar -------------------------------- Hari Om pranams to all seekars, My understanding of attained is as foolws: If we are dead no thought can arise in the dead body. Therefore life has to be there to give birth to the thought. THIS LIFE (GOD) which IS there already is the attained in the sense of Adhyatma.We should think of that LIFE before each thought as our REAL self every moment. This is 24 hrs meditation.WE must Live That which is Attained(GOD in us), as Sun shines without discrimination in this world, we must give LOVE to all friends and foes alike all the time is the practice. If I can feel the pain of the other as intensely as I feel my own one has attained THAT which is all pervading. If It is all pervading where is IT not? What is there more to attain? Love M.Nagaraju. ================================================================= Priy Aatman, The question itself is your answer. You said How do I make Paramatmaa unattained and then by whichever way, attain him? I ask U why should U make Paramatmaa Unattained? And why U should try to Attain if it is already there? It is like throwing coin in your hand & then start searching it. For what good. Other way round if U cant feel attained, then, simply watch your heartbeats or Breathing & ask who is doing all this since your birth uninterruptedly. The answer will come. Thanks Hope it helps. Your valuable experience is invited. Pl. let me know what U felt. Raja Gurdasani. ------------------------------- " shraddhaa vaanlabhate jnaanam, tatparah saiyyetindriyah jnaanam labhvaa param shaantimchirenaadhi gacchyati. " (Gita 4:39) " yathaa kaashasthito nityam vaayuh sarvatra go mahaan tathaa sarvaani bhootaani matsthaaneetypadhaaraya " (Gita 9:3) Ahamaatamaa dudaakesha sarvabhootaashayasthitah ahamaadishva madhyamca bhootaanaamanta eva ca. " (Gita 10:20) There are few things in this world for which we don't ask any explanation e.g., Sun, Moon etc. We were told that it is Sun & it is Moon and we accepted it. We didn't asked for any explanation. The same is with God, we need not try to understand Him by explanation. We should just accept it. Its my most humble request to Sri Sarvottamji that please read Gita chapter seven and nine and you will get the answer to all your " unanswered questions " . Ram Ram Ashok Goenka ----------------------------- Hari Om Naham Karta Hari Karta I do not know if this is a simple case of misunderstanding arising out of particular usage of words (such as " attained " or " unattained " )or of substantive understanding. The " Attainment " of God without any explicit effort having been made in that direction or as implied in the statement " Paramatman is already ever-attained from the very beginning " - can only refer to the unconditional " divine grace " that characterizes everything without exception in creation. This is however just a starting point and a mere indication of potency of Jeevatama. It is the " ahankara " tatva, progenitor of " aham " - or " ego " which alienates us from this original state of divine grace and bliss. Coming to grips with this separation or alienation and retrieving the original state of divine grace and grace - is what is really " attaining " . Sri Krishnarpanamasthu Vijayendra Acharya ------------------------------- Dear Sadaks, In a moon light night a person gets afraid of his shadow. When he contemplates, he realizes that the shadow was from him obstructing light. First was ignorance, second was knowledge (realization). Soul is part and parcel of Paramatma, as such Bagavan said that the Atman is indestructible by any thing. The soul is Paramatma WHO illuminates all senses. Once soul leaves the body, the senses/organs becomes useless/decay. Now one should realizes that he is Atman not the body. Which many saints knew as such they offered themselves to be killed. Due to ignorance though one has the Paramatma within him (already in the body), he is searching around, not knowing he can see Paramatma within himself. Prahalad knew this and so he could not be destroyed by any elements. Gnaneswar knew this made the wall move like an airplane. Tukaram knew this and just went in Puspaka Viman from Vaikunt Stal at Devu Village-Poone to Vaikunt on the call of Sri Vishnu. This Quest for realization comes from within. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- My dandavat pranams to all in this forum So, in reading over so many wonderful and transcendental postings, I noticed one of my own which was needing some clarification. I am thinking that certainly the clarification would fit into the discussion of how to attain the Supreme. The story was there of a minister who was highly trusted by the king. The minister went everywhere with the king, and always gave good advice. One day the minister was put to the test of his worthiness, when the king asked him, first, " Can you show me God " , and secondly, " What is God doing " ? The first question has been addressed in the previous posting.....the presentation was somehow cut short without being clear......so, the small boy, the son of the minister, said to the king, " I will answer you second question, but please tell me, you are sitting on the throne, and I am done here on the floor. Is this the appropriate position for one who is accepting himself to be a student? The king immediately understood the gist of the child's statement, and he placed the child on the throne out of respect. Then the child said, " This is exactly what God is doing. He is taking someone from a high position, and putting them in a lowly position, and someone from a low position and taking them high, all due to the results of their actions. " The king was very pleased with the child, and offered the father so much wealth. So, now let us consider one step further; a thought which just came to mind as I read over various postings. If our greatest wealth is a loving relationship with the Lord, if that becomes our source of happiness, joy, and our only purpose for being, then we will ask nothing, absolutely NOTHING from the Lord accept to have Him as our friend, or child, or lover, or to in some way be allowed to render service to Him. If enough of the world had this focus, not to desire anything save and except service, oh, how pleasant that would be for the Lord! He wouldn't have to feel the need to fulfill so many material desires, of so many different varieties. Then, truly, His presence could be manifest, in more and more solid form, with no concern that, " Oh, I don't have time for pastimes in this world, I have so many arrangements to make for those who are " needing " on the materialistic level. " The bottom line, let me learn to never ask the Lord for anything except to render Him service. Most humbly, Mahalaksmi dasi ------------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Oh! Part of Supreme Consciousness, have you accepted, or not? Have you accepted - I am God's and only God is mine ? With a simple, straight forward heart, have you accepted? Only Giridhar Gopal is Mine, No one else is ! Yes! Now what is the distress? Now what is to be done to unattain Him? and what is to be done to attain Him? Now, where do you even exist? Now, everything is only His will. Now, where do you have any desire of your own at all? After acceptance, everything that is happening is according to His desire, His will. Because only He Is. Understood? There is nothing to be done by you. Whatever was to be done, has been done. And that happens only one time. After marriage, when your daughter left to go to her new home, did you send her off with wheat flour, for her rotis? Wasn't all arranged for her and taken care off thereafter by her husband? Everything has already been arranged for you, as well by Paramatama. There is nothing to be done. There is no distress. Oh! part of God, you are already - fearless, free of worries, free of doubts and free of all grief! Meera Das, Ram Ram IN HINDI Hey Ishvar ke ANSH, Aapne ek baar sweekaar kar liyaa, ke nahin? Mein Bhagwaan kaa hoon, aur kewal Bhagwaan hi mere hai ! Haa ! sweekaar KIYAA? Saral hrdey se, drdhtaa poorvak, sweekar kiyaa? Mere toh Giridhar Gopal, doosero ne koyi ! Haa Maharaaj! Ab kyaa aapdaa? Ab kyaa apraapt karnaa hai, aur kyaa praapt karnaa hai, aapko ? Aap thodi ne hai ? Ab toh unkihi marji. Aapki ab kyaa iccha? Ab toh unkihi marji ke hisaab se sab kuch hogaa. Ab to Aap kahaan hai, Woh hi toh hai !!! Aap Samjhe ? Kuch bhi nahin karnaa hai aapko ! Jo honaa thaa woh ho gayaa. Woh ek hi baar hotaa hai. Aapki ladki ki shaadi ke baad, aapne use aataa dekar sasuraal bhejaa thaa, uski roti ke liye ? Sab vyavasthaa ho gayi ne, shaadi ke baad? Aapki bhi toh sab vyavasthaa Bhagwaan ne kar rakhi hai. Kuch bhi nahin karnaa hai. Kuch bhi aapadaa nahin hai. He Ansh nirbhay, nischint, nishank, nishauk ho chuke ho Aap! Meera das, Ram Ram ------------------------------- Jai Shree Krishna Jai Ho ! Jee Jee !! Sarvottamji , now the real answers will flow to your questions. " Jara saamne to aao Challiye, chhup chhup chhalane main kya raaj hai, yoon chhup na sakega Paramatma , meri aatma ki yeh awaaj hai " Come to our sight , O Unmanifest ! What is the secret of remaining hidden , and playing tricks on us ? You will not be able to hide yourself from us O Paramatma ! This is the voice of our Atma ( individual soul ) (to Paramatma) ! " Teri preet pe bada hamen naaz hai, tere haath main hamaari sab laaj hai " Yoon chhup na sakega Paramatma , meri atma ki yeh awaaj hai. We are proud of your affection for us, O Lord. Our honour is in your hands now, O Lord. You will not be able to hide from us any more !! Rajendra Bohra Narayana Narayana - Dear Vineetji, It is great to see that your desire to realise God is increasing. This is a very good sign. Keep the desire burning with greater and greater intensity. This itself will take you there. In an earlier posting on the subject of 'Gunas and Self Evolution', I had tried to explain something similar to your question,. For your ready reference let me repeat it as below: Quote There are four things that come between 'Jeeva' and 'Atma'. These are man (mind), buddhi (intellect0, Chitta (I do not know the right English word for this. Perhaps we can call it wisdom) and 'Ahankar'. These four constitute 'Jeeva'. Only when we are able to cross (anihilate) all these, we will realise God. So long as we are Jeeva, we need to make an effort to realise God. It may be widely believed that we can pursue God only when we are 'Sattwik'. This may not be wholly true, because as per God himself, every one has an equal right to achieve Him. Besides, God is beyond any Gunas. Then where do we start? According to me starting point of this journey is the desire to realise God. This is very clear from your question that you want to start the journey. The next step is to attack the first impediment, which is the mind. Mind is perhaps the greatest creation of nature. It has a tendency to become what ever company it keeps. Currently we keep the company of the world. So it becomes worldly. So let us first change this company. Let us start indulging in literature, which helps us to move in that direction. Also, let us start keeping company of such people, who are moving in this line. This, however, can be dangerous because in today's world, every one who is a kathakar (or a preacher) proclaims himself as 'Siddha'. The real test in such a situation would be to assess if this person has any lust for money. If yes, he can't help us as God can't be purchased with money. In pursuit of God, please ignore what Gunas (prakrity, svabhaav) we are born with. No amount of effort, including wishing them away (believing that these are not in us) will help. But our devotion will automatically take care of that. We should just proceed. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I have not used the word " you " , while addressing your question. This is because we are all in the same boat. Hence this answer is for all of us including myself to remember again and again. Unquote To supplement, may I give a very simple experiment for you to try. Place a coin at the bottom of the bucket full of water. Stir the water. Try if you can see the coin. Now allow the water to become still. Again see if you can now see the coin. Stirred water is like a stirred mind and still water is like a still mind. In both cases the coin is there but in one case, we can not see it and in another, we can clearly see it. If you are still not clear, please feel free to ask. Meanwhile, I strongly suggest that you please read commentaries on Gitaji (Tatv Vivechini Teeka or Sadhak Sanjivini Teeka - Both are published by Gita Press). A.H.Dalmia Let me try to understand and offer some solace to Sarvottama.....in his quest to " attain " the Absolute. It is my understanding that the Absolute is unlimited, infinite, every increasing. Indeed, I have heard it said many times that the Lord does not even know the limits of His own ability to expand. How can one " attain " such a Being? But, He becomes completely controlled out of love, and subservient to his bhakta who follows the process to attain Him. that process, given in Bhagavad Gita by Lord Krsna.....who says, " In the beginning, I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the Sun god Vivasvan, who in turn imparted it to Iksvaku, who in turn imparted it to Manu, the father of mankind. In this way, the science as it is has been handed down. " So, who has handed down to you the understanding of how to " attain " God? What does " attaining " mean to you? Does it mean that you see Him sitting beside you, when you honor your meals, offering your food mentally, toward His mouth before it enters yours? It certainly could mean this....but not unless you have the seed of bhakti, the bhakti lata bija. And then, that lata, or creeper, must be watered daily, or it will wither and die. Only by constant hearing and chanting, under guidance, will your heart come to the level of spontaneous love, so much so that you see the Lord always next to you, in His beautiful two-armed form, sometimes holding a flute, perhaps at other times a guitar, or lute, or harp .....WHY NOT? He is unlimited, but He is not a cheap commodity......if you want to meet the president of the United States, or ANY other country, do you just walk up to the door of the capital and demand, " Let me meet the president! " ? More than likely, such a person would go to jail. But if you find someone very near and dear to the ruler, perhaps his cousin, or son, or daughter, that person can easily bring you directly into the office or even the dining room or kitchen of that great ruler.....and you will have successfully come into the inner heart of that person who is so unattainable for the masses. He will accept you immediately as one of His family, by virtue of your connection with other family member. So, if you can find a person who is so dear to Lord, who is sitting with Him constantly, speaking with HIm in a regular way, holding Him close moment by moment, then you will also be able to come to that coveted platform. Otherwise........well, hell may one day freeze over, it could happen. Honestly, I am thinking that if one truly DID attain the Lord, for even a moment, he or she would be on such a high level....certainly they would never feel attraction to anything in this world, and would be most anxious to find those who could constantly rekindle and spark that " uddipani " or stimuli, to continue remembering even that one moment when the Lord was present. Truly, have any of us attained the Lord, even briefly? If we did, our thirst to hold Him close would be beyond description. Nothing would matter save and except to continue rendering Him service, serving His beloved devotees, and holding onto that precious remembrance. Sincerely, with Love and affection Mahalakshmi dasi Hari Om Both the question of Sarvottamji and reply by his Jee Jee Shashikalaji might have melted and moved many hearts ! Indeed we use mind more than the heart. Sarvottamji you are definitely nearer to Him than many of us. Your bhavas (inner expressions) are guiding principles for all of us. I salute you-Sir- from the last core of my heart. But I have complaint with Shashikalaji. Why Sarvottamji should recommend you only? What wrong we have done, Jee? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ================================================================= PREVIOUS POSTING Jai Hanuman Namaste Bhaiyya Shree Jee, you appear to be quite anxious to meet Daddy. Remain so Bhaiyya- " Kabhi to Deendayal ke bhanak padegi kaan " ( He will have to lend His ears to you). In the end all have to depend upon His grace only. " Jab tujhase na sulajhe tere ulajhe hue dhandhe, Bhagwan ke insaaf pe sab chhod de Bande! Khud hi teri mushkil ko woh asaan karega, jo tu nahin kar paaya woh Bhagwaan karega " (When you are not able to solve your problems, it is better to leave that to the grace and justice of Bhagwaan. He Himself will solve your problem . What you have not been able to do, Bhagwaan will do) Have that trust, Bhaiyya Shree on that Deendayal. No one has ever come back from His regime empty handed. " Hum tumhe jaane tum nahin jaano, aisa kabhi na ho sakta-Pita apne Baalak se bichhad ke sukh se kabhi naa so sakta " ( That we know Him and He does not know us- it can never happen. No father can sleep peacefully , remaining away from His son) I pray I too have similar anxiety (vyaakulata) like you for Papa the Great. Swamiji was right, Papa can not distance Himself away from us. He has no powers to do that. He will dance on your fingers, Bhaiyya Shree ! In this life itself ! ! Where can He run away ? From you ?? No He can't. When you meet with Him, recommend for me also, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - -Shree Hari- I had a thought that may help Vineetji to focus his understanding. There is a medical condition, whereby a person is totally blind, often caused by trauma. The doctors and experts find that his eyes are perfect, his brain is undamaged, he can see, but; his mind cannot. The cure is for him to understand that he is not blind, (the correct therapy is required). It is like that you understand . With Respect and Divine Love , Mike (Mike Keenor) ------------------------------ PREVIOUS QUESTION: Shree Hari Ram Ram ! The answers to the questions that have been asked are in and off themselves perfect and complete. To conclude that which is ever attained as unattained, is lack in understanding, and that which is ever attained, to want to attain it, is deceit. That which is ever attained, is certainly already attained, only our sight has to go there. The question is - 1) What does it mean to have our sight there? 2) Who will have their sight there ? 3) How can the sight be made to go in that direction? Taking all these questions and collectively understanding them, please provide a answer. Vineet Sarvottam =========================================================== Hari Om Q1 What does it mean to have our sight there. Ans to realise/remember/ to experience His presence in you. Q2 Who will have their sight there? Ans What is this question? Paramatma is not going to come and have sight there in your place, nor He will send any messenger to catch hold of your eyes and turn them using some machine..Nor any neighbor or relative will come to help you.. Body is inert. World itself is entangled. Who remained? Jeeva ! You yourself ! !. " Self " not " non self " . Ego, mind, intellect, body they are " non self " . Hence you - yourself. Who did you think will come to your rescue ? Q3- How can the sight be made to go there? Ans By making the sight withdrawn from the world. Sight's role ends there. The sight does not then will have to be made to go there or anywhere ? The element will come before the sight automatically. You have to just Stay Put- thereafter. Just be Silent , in Repose ! There is no need to do anything thereafter. Just withdraw your sight from the world- that is all you have to. Rest is actionless. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - -Shree Hari- I wish to dwell a little on Rajendraji comments. If one has a great desire for the Divine truth if only originating from the mind of the curious thinker, but an honest thinker who keeps her/his pre-conceived ideas out of the process. Allowing Divine Lord to help in the process, trusting in the outcome, regardless of what the Ego may say or do, trust, trust. Slowly the Ego gets broken, with each break the divine within shines a little more, a little more. Like cracks in shell that covers your spiritual heart. You become more and more humble and loving, you do not look away, when a tortured soul with cerebral palsy drooling, searches out your eyes, that soul wants contact, the divine within looks out with compassion, maybe for the first time that soul may see GOD in the eyes of stranger. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) -------------------------------- Jai Shree Krishna I am relieved to see the question getting reframed. Certainly the advice of Jee Jee Shashikalaji has worked. Indeed, detergent prices are soaring. There is one " sher " (a two liner) Dil ke aaine main hai, tasveere yaar, jab jara gardan jhukaai dekh lee. The Beloved (Paramatma) is right inside your heart, simply bow your head and see Him. The lady who lost the gold chain in fact need only to tilt her head down, she will find the gold chain. That God is inside you, in your heart is a proven fact. (Gita 18:61). Now " bowing " your head means surrender. It can also mean throwing that thing which makes your head straight/swollen (Ego) into the dust bin. Be ego less. With Ego, your mind, intellect, sense organs, organs of action and your body all will rest where they actually should - in the dust bin. You alone, Self then shall " sight " the Paramatma - effortlessly. So either surrender (Gita 18:66 read with 7:14) or disconnect with world by becoming egoless. Choose Vineetji - what ever is convenient to you. Rajendra J Bohra Narayana Narayana -------------------------- Jai Hanuman Bhaiyyaji ! What a question? Typical question Jee ! Who will sight !! Who will see the gold chain? Who ever has lost it Jee, will have to see ! Simple common sense Jee ! Who is suffering ? Who is not peaceful? Jeeva or somebody else? Who ever who needs peace will sight that, Jee. So Brahmaji will not come to help you Jee. You have lost that gold chain Jee. Only your " self " will have to help your " self " Jee! Bhaiyyaji, my advice is that do not go into the chakkar (web) of this " sight " at all Jee. They are high level fundas Jee. Simply close your eyes, Jee. So that the world is out of your focus Jee. You will find the gold chain, Bhaiyya. Simply close your eyes, then what will open is your inner eye, and your job will be done. Closing your eyes means " cut off " from the world. Disconnect, Jee! Laali Laali sab kahe , sabke palle laal ! Gaanth khol dekhe nahin , taate phire kangaal !! Every body says I want diamond, I want diamond . The diamond is in the person of every body. No body ( Alas ! No body searches the self) opens the knot of pocket, and instead keeps loitering in the world, Penniless like a beggar - (again crying I want diamond, I want diamond) !! That " knot " , that " gaanth " is your union with inert, with world. Just open it, just separate the two ropes. You are home, Bhaiyyaji. Read Ramayan - Jad chetan ki granthi - the knot of sentient and inert ! Open that knot Jee. Don't ask again, who will open that, Jee. Clear, Jee ? Brother, Jee !! Namaste Jee ! Shashikala -------------------------- That which is ever attained is certainly already attained, only our sight has to " go there " . Perfect recap ! I would only put " go there " since this cannot have the same cannotation of our daily usage. Remember, || Na tatra chakshurgacchati na vaggacchati no manah || None of the faculties under your control can ever enter there, be it the body organs, or the senses, or the mind, or the intellect, or anything else that you think you can manipulate for the simple reason that we cannot cognize anything unless a change is super- imposed on everything. Accordingly, all our faculties are built around the change alone; the change perceived within them due to their limitations. For example, our visual faculty is designed to receive electro-magentic waves of certain frequencies. We all know that electro-magnetic frequencies are filling our environment in all ranges, but we can see only certain colors - violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red. We cannot perceive ultra-violet and infra-red rays. Same way, each set of brain cells can receive only certain range of frequencies which distinguish colors as such within themselves. So is our audio system, we cannot hear sub-sonic and super-sonic sounds that surpass our limitations. Therefore, it is futile to imagine to " go to the unlimmitted " depending thoroughly on " the limited faculties " . 1. What does it mean to have our sight there? This is an excellent distillation of our ignorance. Understanding that The Changeless cannot be perceived by the faculties that insist on changes, the only way " to have our sight there " is to not have one! || Yada panchavatishthante gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taam aahuh paramaam gatim || " Our sight is there " when all our faculties - body, senses, mind and even intellect, come to a halt! That state is the Supreme State, says Yama. In other words, when our association transcends all our activities within our cognition, our sight can possible be there. The true silence is not terminating our faculties physically, but to let them " be " rather than craving to " have " . 2. Who will have their sight in that direction? One who understands a reason for one's miseries would definitely attempt to turn toward the solution even if it is a potential one. Any surviving being is programmed to carry on this feat. A seeker is also a survivor, at least to start with. The only difference is - a spiritual seeker perpetually penetrates into the apparent reason to its roots to see that he himself is the true cause for all his miseries and he himself is the true hurdle for overcoming his miseries as well. Therefore, he is bound to turn " his sight " away from the true cause for his miseries - the ego, the identities, the ownerships, toward a potential solution which is deviod of all these limitations. 3. How can the sight be made to go in that direction? This question could be qualified further, " What is keeping our sight away from this direction? " Definitely, our urge " to live " , Projection, protection and propagation of ego, identities and ownerships. Then the question, " How can the sight be made to go in that direction? " is self-evident. The sight automatically turns toward The Eternity by learning " to die " , Rejection, reduction and removal of ego, identities and ownerships. Learning " to be " rather than " to have " . Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------- Dear spiritual Brothers and Sisters, God is formless and ineffable and to describe God even words recoil. He lives within you and you live within Him like billions of living cells live within you and you live within the billions of cells. We each of us (including all animate and inanimate life/things) are all living cell of God. Maya creates a golden dazzling disc and hides God from us even though we live within Him. Thus the greatest miracle Maya (cosmic delusion) creates is that we search for God every where though He is within us as our guide, friend and philosopher. God is the first Guru (preceptor) and Prakrti- the divine Nature- our supreme Mother is the perfect Guru and guides us through her Rta (cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order). These Rts (cosmic laws) even the blind person can read and follow. A large number of Rta are mentioned in Vedas. The entire social, moral and physical disorder starts when we do not follow the guidelines given by God living within us and Rta laid down by the divine Nature known as Aditi- infinite, Daivi-divine and Devaki-mother of all beings of light (devas/devis) like Usha, Prithvi, Agni, Indraith kind regards, P.K.Sabhlok =================================================================== QUESTION: In message # 2027 of 15th August 2008, it is said " Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. " I don't say " God is not attained. " I say " God is ever attained. " Now my questions are - (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " Thanks and Regards, Still Aspirant, Sarvottam Varma Hari Om Great Saints always have an amazing and divine capacity to be simple, practical and direct. Consider in this regard following Doha :- Khoya kahe so baawara, paya kahe so koor, Paya Khoya kuchh nahin, Jyon ka tyon bharpoor If somebody says I have lost , then he is stupid/insane/ignorant/childish/deluded ( Hindi word " baawara " is used for all these expressions) . If somebody says it has been received , he is lying. Nothing has been lost, nothing has been received - the element (Paramatma) is AS IT IS and AS MUCH IT IS (same) (unmoved) If the lady wearing gold chain, says it is lost, she is stupid, insane, under illusion.If she says I have got it , she is lying because it was ever with her. There is no getting/ losing involved. Same gold chain is there as it is. Similar is that Great Ramayan chopai quoted by Shashikalaji. " Sankar sahaj saroop sambhara " . Lord Shiva simply gathered (threw a glance at) His self , and He reached the indivisible, limitless obvious absorption state. (Samadhi) Just gather yourself, just throw a glance at it, and you are home. In fact you were in home only. So easy! So simple! So immediate! So convincing! So effortless! So actioness! So mindless! So bodyless! So obvious! So Timeless! So natural! Timeless is Sanatan Dharma and so are our Saints and Sages. And so are the words left behind by them for all of us. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - Dear Sadaks, God` s benovolence is always there, we are not recognising it. From the tower of GOD there is frequency available everywhere, but we are not switching on our cell phone(mind) to receive HIS grace. B.Sathyanarayan -- Shree Hari Ram Ram Swamiji often says God is ever attained and one does not need to do anything to attain Him, but be in repose. All the doing is to attain that repose - reading of scriptures, chanting of God's name, listening to discourses, or any other spiritual practice etc. Therefore, all the doing is to be able to not do, to be in repose. The earlier example about the chain, to find the chain which is already around the woman's neck, she needs to do nothing, she needs to go nowhere - only her sight has to go towards it. It was with her all the time. It is the same thing in God Realisation. He is all pervasive and ever attained, and present within and without. Only our sight has to go towards Him. We have just taken our sight away. Our sight has been on world and worldly things. Minimally if we are facing darkness, we have to turn away from darkness. All the doing is to turn away from darkness, thereafter the light / the illumination is naturally and automatically present and ever attained. With devotion, Meera das -- -Shree Hari- I would like to place great mystical knowledge against the wisdom of the Holy Gita. Patanjali, (according to Swami Vivekananda), declared that the true secret of evolution is the manifestation of perfection which is already in every being. Summarizing the understanding of Origin (Christian church father and philosopher), He held that it was because of the fall of the spiritual nature of souls, that humanity was given physical existence to work out their destiny. Now there is a very ancient Gnostic text that I have read, summarizing; said that through love and ignorance, souls put themselves in place of GOD, because they could not find HIM, thus this world of illusion was created. (They were looking out, but not within). See the pasts below from Bhagavad Gita: My higher nature is the Indwelling Spirit by which the universe is sustained [7:5]. I am the Eternal Seed of all things [7:10]. Those whose discrimination has been led astray, resort to other deities, following diverse rituals [7:20]. False thinking it seems is the barrier, to the Divine, thus silence, peace serenity, and all the attributes of the Sadhak. Can remove the blindfold. I remember reading somewhere that Sri Ramakrishna, declared that GOD is closer than your skin. With Respects and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor) -- My respects to all in this forum.... As the holy day of Sri Krsna Janmastami is upon us, a question comes to mind - " What can you tell me about the sweetness of Sri Krsna? " And then, one small comment, in regard to the concept of attaining God. Yes, it is true that some can immediately realize and perceive the presence of God.....but there is a process by which the conditioned soul can gradually develop the adhikar (qualification) to see God. That is given in the Brhad Naradiya Purana....constant chanting of the holy Names, in the form of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare What happens when this mantra is chanted, is that the dust of ignorance which has been covering the heart begins to clear away. The effects of passion and ignorance, which bind us to worldly activities, gradually dissappear (notice the word gradually) In the mode of goodness, one can understand the need for God realization, and make furthur steps toward suddha sattva, the state of pure goodness, where-in pure loving service to the Lord is rendered. I recently heard a beautiful story. One king had a minister, who would accompany him everywhere. One day, the king was plagued by two questions, which he asked his minister. First, he said, " Can you show me God " . The minister replied that he would need a few days to contemplate the appropriate answer. The king cautioned him, " If you do not satisfy me with your answer, I will certainly lose faith in you " . The minister after studying many sacred texts, was truly in distress, as he wasn't sure what to say to the king. His son asked his father, " What are you disturbed for, father? " The father told him. The boy told his father to tell the king that even a small boy can answer. " The minister went to the king and said, " Oh my king, I am here with my son. The questions you have asked are so simple that even a small boy can answer. " The boy approached, and said, " My king, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did so. The boy said, " Within this milk, is there butter present? " The king said, " Yes, certainly " . " But " , said the boy, " Can you see the butter? " The king responded, " No, there is a process by which the butter can be seen " . Then the small boy said, " Similarly, there is a process by which God can be seen. Unless you follow that process, you will not be able to see God, but if you follow, you will certainly see. " The small boy said, I will answer your question, but you are accepting me as the authority, to instruct you, yet you are sitting higher than me. The king was amazed at the child's astuteness, and he rewarded the minister. With all deepest respect, Mahalaksmi Dasi Hari Om Varmaji has asked three questions. 1- Where is the need for attaining that which is already attained?. Answer is that you have forgotten His presence in you due to your association with eight fold city, called apara prakriti in Gita 7: 4/5. (Eight elements-Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Sky, mind, intellect, ego) But being part of Paramatma, you can't remain peaceful till you attain (realise)/ remember what you have forgotten. You can't remain peaceful because your connection with eight fold city is unnatural and because this eightfold city is " dukhalayam " (abode of sorrow). Need is therefore to remove the lack of peace which has naturally arisen because of your unnatural connection with eight fold city- this world. 2- How to attain, what is already attained but forgotten? Either connect yourself with Paramatma (Bhakti Yoga) or disconnect yourself with the eight fold city (Karma Yoga/Jnana Yoga). Result of former will be transformation of your mind/ego/intellect/body totally in such a manner that even eight fold city will appear as Paramatma only (Vasudevah Sarvam - Gita 7:19) and hence the world will be pleasant / peaceful for you. Result of latter will be that the eight fold city will cease to impact you at all (will not impart any sorrows to you) and hence in effect it will vanish for you - leaving your pure Self and Paramatma behind - and hence that state will be pleasant/peaceful for you. You will automatically in all cases hence regain / reattain the forgotten, ever attained Paramatma. 3.Your this question needs further clarity. I have not understood any relevance of example given by you vis a vis the subject. Unless you elaborate, and give the remotest connection of this particular subject viz " reattaining already attained " with the example of " sinning/forgiving " - it will be difficult to reply. Read again what you have written- " Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? " By what yardstick the two subjects get correlated? Do you mean to say that body automatically sins and keeps sinning? Hence request for elaboration. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Thanks to Shashikala ji, for verse in the Ramayana on Shiva in state of the self. Indeed, it is loss of swabhaav that causes the ego state. And ego state is defense that causes comparision (dwesh), attachment (moh) and conflct (mrityu). Bhagwat Gita starts at Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah (for cowardice, my independent nature is deterioated) Prakshyami Tvaam Dharma Sammodh Chetah (I ask you, who is completely aware of all nature) Yat Shreah sya nishchitam broohi me tat (to tell me that which is appropriate for me, and so is decided by you) Sishyasteham shadhi Maam twam prapannam (because I being your pupil seek your refuge) In every individual, it is natural to have self expression but, in the world, the expression is not self but learnt. Here, the nature of self is lost, and one deprived of his/her own state gets into rat race of comparision and ego and so on as defences. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ==================================================================== Jai Hanuman Q1 Ans: Because you have forgotten. Many times you have some thing with you but because of inattention, and because of this animal called mind, you get busy in other things, more important worldly things, perishable things and you forget. Similarly you have forgotten Jee! You had a gold chain, you have forgotten where you kept it, also whether you had it or not. Now you need that chain , because something incomprehensible tells you from inner self to you that you should have it, and now you are searching, Jee! There is no peace to you till you find that Jee! Chain is in you, in fact. You are engrossed in other things too much to care . Ignorance, Jee! Maya Jee! Stupidity Jee! Everybody says so, that you have that.. You don't believe. You think your mind, your ego is the best in the world. You need that Gold chain also. What else you can do except searching, Jee! Q2 Ans: By following Ramayana Principle Jee - " Shankar sahaj svaroop sambharaa, laagi samadhi akhand apaara " - Lord Shiva just gathered his real Self and as soon as He did that, he got immersed into natural state, unbreakable state (sahaj- obvious state of absorption) Jee! Q3 Ans: Not calling any names to this question, but you know it Bhaiyyajee. Why you should first spread dirt on your cloths and then should wash that jee? How costly is soap and detergent prices in this Kaliyuga? Why you should make this parakram (dare devilry) Bhaiyya ? How did this question arise in your mind - Bhaiyyaji? No! Never commit sin and wait for forgiveness. God is more clever than us, Jee! Dangerous course and results, Jee! Namaste Jee Shashikala - I would like to humbly attempt to respond according to my vision on attaining God. It is expressed in Jaiva Dharam, of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakur, that jiva has two positions, nitya baddha and Nitya Siddha. The nitya baddha, or eternally bound conditioned soul, does NOT have God. (He is not aware of his relationship) However, when through the association of elevated souls, who remove the coverings of the mist of material ignorance, passion, and goodness, the nitya baddha takes up the path of devotional life, with the goal to again render loving service to the LOrd, then that conditioned soul is eligible to again enter into the realm of the nitya siddha, or eternally liberated. It is through the association of higher class saints, as well as through one's attempts to live a purified life of devotion that one will enter into the realm of relationship with God...one activity without the other will not suffice. We should know always that the LOrd is so much more desirous of us returning to Him than we could possibly grasp, or even reciprocate. The illusioned soul, covered by ignorance, passion and goodness, is ever thinking that this world is a place to enjoy....when by intelligence and the mercy of the Lord, that conditioned soul desires to serve the Lord, the Lord very kindly makes arrangement for him to come back to Him. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi =================================================================== (1) When God is ever attained and it is beyond our means to have God 'not attained', what is the necessity of re-attaining God? Our miseries are in our perceptions – in purity, none of us could ever suffer. The impurity of not being ourselves is created by our lopsided urge to survive. We are wandering away from what we really are and hence are subjected to variations in our emotions. Dropping our urge to run around automatically switches back to our true state which is free from all changes. This home-coming event is often referred as " God Attainment " , " Sthithapragnyata " , etc. The changeless state exists eternally and therefore, it is self- attained. Our dependence on our senses for approving reality misses the boat as no sense can sense anything if it can not impose a change on it. Thus the ever-attained changeless state remains aloof to our senses and hence to most of us. " Re-attaining God " means – (a) Understanding the momentary and illusive nature of our very senses – everything that we can think of is erased from our mind as soon as they are projected – and hence they cannot bring us permanance: Indriyaanaam prithak bhaavam udayaastamayou cha yat | (b) Understanding that something momentary cannot be source for anything, particularly happiness. All our unhappiness as well as our pursuits of happiness are anchored in seeking permanance – knowingly or unknowingly. The very hint of unavailability of what we think we enjoy makes us instantly sad because our happiness seem to come to an end in our perception. Even without any Vedantic exposure, we know that we want an unlimitted and unexhausting supply of joy – but we don't know how to realize it and hence get unhappy even we " get " happiness in our pursuits. Therefore, the wise men would ne ver expect happyness that lasts forever from such momentary flashes of sensory attainment. Prithagutpadyamanaanaam mattwa dheero na shochati || Therefore, it is required to " re-attain God " if we are seeking Equanimity that is devoid of momentaryness. (2) How can we attain the already ever attained God? Again, by dropping our urge to pursue the momentaryness around and within being enslaved to our sensory urges. (3) Words and names are created and used by us and God IS everywhere, every moment then How is it that God is not attained that we need to attain the ever attained God? Isn't it same as we should commit sin to be pious in life by getting the sins forgiven by God? Kindly make me understand Swamijee's statement " The attainment of the ever attained. " " God is ever-attained " does not produce anything worthwhile in those who have no clue of what it means. Even if one comes to an understanding of it, one remains incapable of correlating this fact with one's happiness because the question remains unresolved – " If God is happy, why should I be happy?! " That is the reason Swamijis through the human history have emphasized the need to " attain the ever-attained " where-in one realizes the oneness with the ever- attained which triggers the flow of knowledge to wipe out one's ignorance that " I don't know who I am! " . Until I don't know who I am, I am subjected to variations because I am vulnerable to all parameters to influence me to their benefit! Knowing who I am, in other words, is the attainment of the ever-attained. Self is ever- attained since anything is already what it is and yet remains never- known since it can never be an object to any observation. We chase the knowns as if we know all our lives. With the same habit, we insist to chase The Self to know it and fail miserably. Not- withstanding our failure we either deny the Never-Known or lament that we did not " get " the Ever-Attained if we still believe in one. The Equanimity, effortlessness, actionlessness, etc. – that are discussed in detail in the previous topic by many esteemed Sadhakas – refer to the same: " Attainment of the Ever-Attained " . Krishna invites all the aspirants to merge in Him " Mamekam sharanam vraja " dropping all our urges to chase our illusions " Sarva dharmaan parityajya " ; He ascertains that anything one with Him would be instantly free of all the sins (self-inflicted pains of momentariness in infinitude) " Aham twaa sarvapaapebhyo mokshayishyami " . Therefore, if we want to attain permanent joy we should seek ourself – our pure form – which is nothing but merging in the Universal Unity dropping all our self-acclaimed identities and ownerships of all forms. Respects. Naga Narayana ---------------------------- Thank you please do not stop Questions please keep it going its very inspirational Sathyanarayana Hindu Temple Kansas City USA ----------------------------- DISCOURSE FROM SADHAK DAILY MESSAGE - 15th August, 2008, Friday Shraavan Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar Everyone thinks that God Realisation is very difficult and it requires a lot of effort. This is not wrong also because this is what we have heard from most saints and read in most of the books. Now listen - there are two things. 1) Turning towards God and 2) Turning away from the world. Now God is naturally attained - He is ever attained and the world is always moving away from us. Be silent. Remain in God, let there be no other thought (Gita 6:25). Do nothing and think of nothing - God is naturally attained. The attainment of the ever attained. No thought, no thinking. If a thought comes - it will go. Keep three things in mind - (1) the thought is neither good, (2) the thought is neither bad and (3) the thought is not in me. Be indifferent to it. Remaining in God, become silent. If we think we will use nature (prakriti) and then it will assume importance. Thoughts just come and go. Do not give them any importance. By doing this, new thoughts do not come - old thoughts that are inside are going away. The door through which they come and go are same. From the time we have been spiritually inclined, have the thoughts not reduced? This shows that they are going - not coming. Do not oppose the thoughts. If we oppose them, we will strengthen them. Just ignore them. They have no power to control us. We are their master. If a dog enters our house, it does not become the master of the house. Accept that Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) IS. The body and world are NOT. Union with Paramatma is permanent and disunion with the body and world is constant. Remove what is NOT - Remove what is naturally being removed. And be in the IS, as this IS-ness is natural. Now, where is the problem? Natural is what needs no effort. Only the real IS and the unreal IS NOT (Gita 2:16). Paramatma IS, and is naturally and ever attained. Be Still ! Paramatma has no power to leave us. Be situate in the IS. From discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi on Dec 15, 1995 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.