Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2008 Dear members, Followers of dakshina marga, perform nitya / naimittika karmas as per the srutis / Vedas. Apart from their ishta devata upasana, they have deva, pitri, rishi tarpanas and karmas. They perform pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. So, there is no riNAnubandha for them as far as the vaidika karmanushtana method is concerned. Karma anushtana leads to Chitta shuddhi and eventually the Jnana siddhi. Whereas, vama marga is the veda viruddha achara where every karmAnushTana has to be directed to Tripura Bhairavi and phala samarpana should be done to Tripura Bhairavi. The dwijas who follow the Vama Marga are prohibited from performing pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. Thus, they get entangled in riNAnubandha and there is no riNa vimOchana for the dwijas who follow vAma mArga. They are vEda bAhyAs. Since, there is no riNa vimOchana, adopting the vAma mArga, the dwijas get entangled in samsara (punarapi maranam punarapi jananam punarapi janani jatare shayanam). Moreover, omitting of veda karmanushtana is a sin and there is a danger of pratyavAya. The jnana siddhi for dwijas adopting the vama marga is very difficult which is full of pitfalls. Dwijas tamAt jAgratta!!! With regards, sriram Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2008 Dear Sriram, According to His biographies, the Avathara Varishta Paramahamsa Sri Ramakrishna, a dwija by birth, seemed to have tread the vamachara marga, including sadhana with the panchamakaras. Hoping that you would have come across relevant literature on Him, could you kindly clarify on this? Sudarshan venkata sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: Dear members, Followers of dakshina marga, perform nitya / naimittika karmas as per the srutis / Vedas. Apart from their ishta devata upasana, they have deva, pitri, rishi tarpanas and karmas. They perform pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. So, there is no riNAnubandha for them as far as the vaidika karmanushtana method is concerned. Karma anushtana leads to Chitta shuddhi and eventually the Jnana siddhi. Whereas, vama marga is the veda viruddha achara where every karmAnushTana has to be directed to Tripura Bhairavi and phala samarpana should be done to Tripura Bhairavi. The dwijas who follow the Vama Marga are prohibited from performing pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. Thus, they get entangled in riNAnubandha and there is no riNa vimOchana for the dwijas who follow vAma mArga. They are vEda bAhyAs. Since, there is no riNa vimOchana, adopting the vAma mArga, the dwijas get entangled in samsara (punarapi maranam punarapi jananam punarapi janani jatare shayanam). Moreover, omitting of veda karmanushtana is a sin and there is a danger of pratyavAya. The jnana siddhi for dwijas adopting the vama marga is very difficult which is full of pitfalls. Dwijas tamAt jAgratta!!! With regards, sriram Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2008 Dear sudarshan, Namste. Since you hail from illustrious kamakoti family, I need not explain you about the sankara siddhanta. Now regarding this adhikara nirnaya of vama and dakshina, Shri Bhaskara has wonderfully explained the name " savyApasavya mArgasthA " . In explaining this, Shri Bhaskara has explained the " shishTa lakshaNa " and his upasana vidhi. A vamachari has no mukti till he attains the PrAjnatva Siddhi after his entire riNAnubandha is nullified. Whatever karma kanda (yajna, dana, tarpana, arghya etc.), either it reaches the Martanda Bhairava / Bhairava or Tripura Bhairavi. The havir bhaga does not reach the corresponding vedic deity. Here, Tripura Bhairavi is the Havir Grahita and such a devi who accepts the Havir bhaga of the Vedic Deities is called VAMA. Such a person who performs the karma kanda by offering the phala to Bhairava and Bhairavi is a Vamachari. Every Vedic Deity is replaced by either Bhairava, Bhairavi or Martanda Bhairava. Such a person is prohibited from performing Vaidika Karmanushtana like nitya sandhya of Savitr with Arghya to Surya, Panchayatana, Pancha Paka Yanjnas, Saptha Havir Yajnas, Sthalipaka and other kratus. The Dwija who adopts the Vama Marga is a Pataka. Now coming to Ramakrishna, his mode of worship was with Divya Bhava. Even after the marriage with Sarada, he considered his wife to be Mother Kali leave alone the thought of physical touch or conjugal love. He has shunned the Kamini and Kanchana and brushed them aside like insignificant things. Even though he is dvija, he is an exception as he is an avatara purusha. Moreover, singing, dancing, talking and playing with Mother is not Moksha. He may be dwelling on higher planes of consciousness but it is also an emotional outburst which is also a maya. His sadhana concluded only with the advent of Tota Puri where he was directed to adopt advaita sadhana. And he achieved it in 3 days. For the people like us, we should constantly remember the adage " mannathah sri jagannathah madguruh sri jagatguruh " . We should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara. With regards, Sriram Jaya Jaya sankara hara hara sankara , sudarshan balasubramanian <sudarshanbalasubramanian wrote: > > Dear Sriram, > > According to His biographies, the Avathara Varishta Paramahamsa Sri Ramakrishna, a dwija by birth, seemed to have tread the vamachara marga, including sadhana with the panchamakaras. Hoping that you would have come across relevant literature on Him, could you kindly clarify on this? > > Sudarshan > > venkata sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > Dear members, > > Followers of dakshina marga, perform nitya / naimittika karmas as per the srutis / Vedas. Apart from their ishta devata upasana, they have deva, pitri, rishi tarpanas and karmas. They perform pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. So, there is no riNAnubandha for them as far as the vaidika karmanushtana method is concerned. Karma anushtana leads to Chitta shuddhi and eventually the Jnana siddhi. > > Whereas, vama marga is the veda viruddha achara where every karmAnushTana has to be directed to Tripura Bhairavi and phala samarpana should be done to Tripura Bhairavi. The dwijas who follow the Vama Marga are prohibited from performing pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. Thus, they get entangled in riNAnubandha and there is no riNa vimOchana for the dwijas who follow vAma mArga. They are vEda bAhyAs. Since, there is no riNa vimOchana, adopting the vAma mArga, the dwijas get entangled in samsara (punarapi maranam punarapi jananam punarapi janani jatare shayanam). Moreover, omitting of veda karmanushtana is a sin and there is a danger of pratyavAya. The jnana siddhi for dwijas adopting the vama marga is very difficult which is full of pitfalls. > > Dwijas tamAt jAgratta!!! > > With regards, > sriram > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2008 In short 99% of the upasakas however practical in their method of their worship, are found to be satisfied with their achievement in the body and mental speheres only and they start to appreciate their own visions, and feels that he has achieved the end. Whereas the achievement is only relative to the body and mind and not soul.Apasavya is not against savya, and on the contrary when savya is achieved, it croses the boundary and becomes apasavya. Similarly when Dharma croses the border and becomes adharma, the sadhaka is not bound by any rules and regulations. That is how even Ramakrishna Paramahamsa dwelled on Kali and could find her alive within and without him. Therefore upasana, has its own borders and barriers to be crossed. I do not think sex is mistaken. The union is between the soul of the upasaka and his Guru and the Divine abstract energy which alone can be called " Triputi " . But people mistake it as the union of male and female, which is mind and body oriented, whereas the Triputi is relative to the Divine. S.SHANGARANARAYANAN : sriram_sapthasathi: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:53:53 +0000 Re: No vama marga for dwijas Dear sudarshan,Namste. Since you hail from illustrious kamakoti family, I need not explain you about the sankara siddhanta. Now regarding this adhikara nirnaya of vama and dakshina, Shri Bhaskara has wonderfully explained the name " savyApasavya mArgasthA " . In explaining this, Shri Bhaskara has explained the " shishTa lakshaNa " and his upasana vidhi. A vamachari has no mukti till he attains the PrAjnatva Siddhi after his entire riNAnubandha is nullified. Whatever karma kanda (yajna, dana, tarpana, arghya etc.), either it reaches the Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 13, 2008 Namaste Sriram, Thanks for the clarification. I absolutely am for abiding by the path shown by Acharyal. I just wanted clarification on Sri Paramahamsa's sadhana. Moreover, I am absolutely unworthy of your words. I have not done the punyam to be associated even with the dust of the feet of the illustrious Kamakoti family. I am just another ordinary bloke. Sudarshan sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: Dear sudarshan, Namste. Since you hail from illustrious kamakoti family, I need not explain you about the sankara siddhanta. Now regarding this adhikara nirnaya of vama and dakshina, Shri Bhaskara has wonderfully explained the name " savyApasavya mArgasthA " . In explaining this, Shri Bhaskara has explained the " shishTa lakshaNa " and his upasana vidhi. A vamachari has no mukti till he attains the PrAjnatva Siddhi after his entire riNAnubandha is nullified. Whatever karma kanda (yajna, dana, tarpana, arghya etc.), either it reaches the Martanda Bhairava / Bhairava or Tripura Bhairavi. The havir bhaga does not reach the corresponding vedic deity. Here, Tripura Bhairavi is the Havir Grahita and such a devi who accepts the Havir bhaga of the Vedic Deities is called VAMA. Such a person who performs the karma kanda by offering the phala to Bhairava and Bhairavi is a Vamachari. Every Vedic Deity is replaced by either Bhairava, Bhairavi or Martanda Bhairava. Such a person is prohibited from performing Vaidika Karmanushtana like nitya sandhya of Savitr with Arghya to Surya, Panchayatana, Pancha Paka Yanjnas, Saptha Havir Yajnas, Sthalipaka and other kratus. The Dwija who adopts the Vama Marga is a Pataka. Now coming to Ramakrishna, his mode of worship was with Divya Bhava. Even after the marriage with Sarada, he considered his wife to be Mother Kali leave alone the thought of physical touch or conjugal love. He has shunned the Kamini and Kanchana and brushed them aside like insignificant things. Even though he is dvija, he is an exception as he is an avatara purusha. Moreover, singing, dancing, talking and playing with Mother is not Moksha. He may be dwelling on higher planes of consciousness but it is also an emotional outburst which is also a maya. His sadhana concluded only with the advent of Tota Puri where he was directed to adopt advaita sadhana. And he achieved it in 3 days. For the people like us, we should constantly remember the adage " mannathah sri jagannathah madguruh sri jagatguruh " . We should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara. With regards, Sriram Jaya Jaya sankara hara hara sankara , sudarshan balasubramanian <sudarshanbalasubramanian wrote: > > Dear Sriram, > > According to His biographies, the Avathara Varishta Paramahamsa Sri Ramakrishna, a dwija by birth, seemed to have tread the vamachara marga, including sadhana with the panchamakaras. Hoping that you would have come across relevant literature on Him, could you kindly clarify on this? > > Sudarshan > > venkata sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > Dear members, > > Followers of dakshina marga, perform nitya / naimittika karmas as per the srutis / Vedas. Apart from their ishta devata upasana, they have deva, pitri, rishi tarpanas and karmas. They perform pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. So, there is no riNAnubandha for them as far as the vaidika karmanushtana method is concerned. Karma anushtana leads to Chitta shuddhi and eventually the Jnana siddhi. > > Whereas, vama marga is the veda viruddha achara where every karmAnushTana has to be directed to Tripura Bhairavi and phala samarpana should be done to Tripura Bhairavi. The dwijas who follow the Vama Marga are prohibited from performing pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. Thus, they get entangled in riNAnubandha and there is no riNa vimOchana for the dwijas who follow vAma mArga. They are vEda bAhyAs. Since, there is no riNa vimOchana, adopting the vAma mArga, the dwijas get entangled in samsara (punarapi maranam punarapi jananam punarapi janani jatare shayanam). Moreover, omitting of veda karmanushtana is a sin and there is a danger of pratyavAya. The jnana siddhi for dwijas adopting the vama marga is very difficult which is full of pitfalls. > > Dwijas tamAt jAgratta!!! > > With regards, > sriram > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 17, 2008 , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > We > should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara. When statements like these are made we should be a bit cautious. Those interested will follow Shankara's school. There is no binding rule on smArta-s to follow Shankara. Some stick to shuti smriti purana and tantra-s(those in line with shruti, smriti) without any special allegiance to shankara matha-s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 17, 2008 When we say kaula marga, we mistake it to sex. This is totally wrong. Even Adi Sankara, contravening his sanyasa dharma, would have stopped to such a low level of " para stri ghamanam " in order to win over Bharathi on the Bliss experience of union. Certainly he had the capacity to transmit his divine energy and enjoyed the bliss of merging the jiva atma with parama atma. Accoding to me even Sankara when doing the worship of sriyantra, must have avoided the bindu tarpana, which tradition is followed by his followers and maths. Let us try to understand that srividhya is athma vidhya and I know several devi upasakas who do not follow sankara's school of thought. There are several upasakas in the vaishnava cult who are great followers of parambha, as you would know that Lakshmi is the first lady of the universe and even the Vaishnavits are keen devi upasakas. Regards, S.SHANGARANARAYANAN : satisharigela: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 05:26:57 +0000 Re: No vama marga for dwijas , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote:> We > should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara. When statements like these are made we should be a bit cautious.Those interested will follow Shankara's school. There is no binding rule on smArta-s to follow Shankara.Some stick to shuti smriti purana and tantra-s(those in line with shruti, smriti) without any special allegiance to shankara matha-s. _______________ Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video & form=MICOAL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2008 Dear sir, Namaste. There have been several distorted versions on the biographical sketch of acharya sankara. This is one among them. And I don't want to delve into it. As regards the kaula marga, acharya gaudapada in his " subhagodaya stuti " has clearly explained what is kaulachara and samayachara. Interested people can refer it. Since, this is not the forum on vama cult, i would not delve into it but just my two cents. As regards the 5 Ms, there are 3 modes of upasana. One is pashu, second is vira and the third is divya bhavana. So, there are no rahasyasthas as regards the maithuna or rest of the Ms are concerned. The difference is ONLY IN THE BHAVANA. The person who follows the sruti pramana, should follow the smartha sampradaya and should follow the rules and regulations laid down by the as per the sadachara. The srividya should be based on sadachara and as per varna ashrama dharma. There are rahasyarthas for 5 Ms like matsya is symbolic representation for Jiva bhava etc. etc. (ref " parishrutam jhusham Ajapalam....... " ). Though these seem to be biased interpretations of vedantis, this is the uttama lakshana of the upasaka who follows the sadachara and who accepts the sruti pramana. But that does not mean that all the 4 varnas should accept this interpretation. The problem lies with the MISRACHARA (mixing of cults). A trai- varnika stooping to the levels of vama should be condemned. But the 4th varna has the options open. Either he can choose the vama or dakshina. But again, it depends upon his chitta samskaras. This reminds me of an episode of Shri Girish Chandra Ghosh in the biography of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. Ghosh was a drunkard. After meeting with this saint, he tries to avoid this habid of drinking but could not. He approaches the Paramahamsa and asks for a solution. The saint advices that before drinking, offer a little of alcohol to Mother Kali in you house. Ghosh follows the instructions. Within no time, he kicks off this drinking habit. THIS SHOULD BE THE SPIRIT OF VAMACHARA. The Vama cult never rejects any thing. It is a positive approach that accepts all your negative tendencies and converts them into sadhana. In this approach, ultimately, a vama sadhaka would kick off his pashu bhava and chooses the " right track " and " merges " with Mother. Unfortunately, some of the todays Srividya upasakas are following the misra-cult. They are neither Samaya nor Vama. Moreover, there is a controversy of conferring Purnadiksha to Bachelors. " Sakti uktasya eva diksha " says the kaula sastra. But brahmacharis are given purna diksha which is against kaula. Again, if they belong to Samaya path, why the diksha extends upto the Purnabhisheka which is not to be found in samaya cult. I have some reservations against this diksha sampradaya. Is not the Panchadasi, Shodashi, Hamsa Vidya enough for the upasakas who rant about the Samayachara? With regards, sriram , S Sangaranarayanan <sangarsai wrote: > > > When we say kaula marga, we mistake it to sex. This is totally wrong. Even Adi Sankara, contravening his sanyasa dharma, would have stopped to such a low level of " para stri ghamanam " in order to win over Bharathi on the Bliss experience of union. Certainly he had the capacity to transmit his divine energy and enjoyed the bliss of merging the jiva atma with parama atma. Accoding to me even Sankara when doing the worship of sriyantra, must have avoided the bindu tarpana, which tradition is followed by his followers and maths. > Let us try to understand that srividhya is athma vidhya and I know several devi upasakas who do not follow sankara's school of thought. There are several upasakas in the vaishnava cult who are great followers of parambha, as you would know that Lakshmi is the first lady of the universe and even the Vaishnavits are keen devi upasakas. > > Regards, > S.SHANGARANARAYANAN > > > > : satisharigela: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 05:26:57 +0000 Re: No vama marga for dwijas > > > > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote:> We > should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara. When statements like these are made we should be a bit cautious.Those interested will follow Shankara's school. There is no binding rule on smArta-s to follow Shankara.Some stick to shuti smriti purana and tantra-s(those in line with shruti, smriti) without any special allegiance to shankara matha-s. > > > > > > _______________ > Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com > http://www.live.com/?scope=video & form=MICOAL > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 20, 2008 , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > Within no > time, he kicks off this drinking habit. THIS SHOULD BE THE SPIRIT OF > VAMACHARA. The Vama cult never rejects any thing. It is a positive > approach that accepts all your negative tendencies and converts them > into sadhana. In this approach, ultimately, a vama sadhaka would kick > off his pashu bhava and chooses the " right track " and " merges " with > Mother. According to teh tArA tantra(or is it Brahma yamala? - cant remember) only one who has total control over his senses and devoid of addiction to drinking and who is as good as a napuMsaka (eunuch) before a para strI i.e. one who doesnt desire another's wife even in thoughts , only they are vIra-s and fit for puja with 5Ms. Another tantra(probably the mahiSha-mardini tantra) clearly says that " only one who has attained mantra siddhi is a vIra, not a drunkard " . " siddha-mantrI(n) " is the exact word in the quotation. There can be no disagrement on other things you said about varNAshrama dharma for followers of shrIvidya. Even some of the so called kaula texts lay emphasis on following varNa dharma outside the kaula ritual. As we can see vAmAchAra is not necesarily for the lowliest as it is being publicised in some other forums. It is only for some advanced sAdhaka-s who are destined for it. I personally know shrauti-s who follow kaula rituals with proper substitues and there is no difference in siddhi. In such rituals, the effect was the same(or similar) with little or no difference when compared to a full fledged vAmA ritual. But the idea and the spirit behind the usage of 5Ms has to be grasped completely - this is what I was told. I am aware that vAmA and kaula are being clubbed here and dont like to dwell on the differences now. Regards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 21, 2008 Have those Srivaishnavas that are initiated into Srividya accepted the unity of ShankaraNarayana before delving into the unity of ShivaShakti? This is because although Kameshwara and Kameshwari are equated with entities of Purusha and Prakriti, they are still seen as nondifferent from Uma-Maheshwara and not essentially as Lakshmi- Narayana. , S Sangaranarayanan <sangarsai wrote: > > > When we say kaula marga, we mistake it to sex. This is totally wrong. Even Adi Sankara, contravening his sanyasa dharma, would have stopped to such a low level of " para stri ghamanam " in order to win over Bharathi on the Bliss experience of union. Certainly he had the capacity to transmit his divine energy and enjoyed the bliss of merging the jiva atma with parama atma. Accoding to me even Sankara when doing the worship of sriyantra, must have avoided the bindu tarpana, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 21, 2008 Dear satish, << According to teh tArA tantra(or is it Brahma yamala? - cant remember) only one who has total control over his senses and devoid of addiction to drinking and who is as good as a napuMsaka (eunuch) before a para strI i.e. one who doesnt desire another's wife even in thoughts , only they are vIra-s and fit for puja with 5Ms.>> Why would one go for 5 Ms one WHO HAS TOTAL CONTROL OF SENSES, NO ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL, PARA-STRI VIMUKHATA? This is simply ridiculous!!! The one WHO HAS PERFECT CONTROL OF HIMSELF WOULD NATURALLY PREFER THE DIVYA BHAVA WHICH WOULD BE HIS NATURAL INCLINATION. As regards the srautas following vama rituals, yes there are substitutes for 5 Ms and i am aware of them which are called pancha adi dravyas. Some of our own relatives follow these things in Andhra. And i have cut off the relations with them. Because, for me they are veda bAhyAs. And we don't allow them in our saha-pankti bhojana. regs, sriram , " Satish " <satisharigela wrote: > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> > wrote: > > Within no > > time, he kicks off this drinking habit. THIS SHOULD BE THE SPIRIT > OF > > VAMACHARA. The Vama cult never rejects any thing. It is a positive > > approach that accepts all your negative tendencies and converts > them > > into sadhana. In this approach, ultimately, a vama sadhaka would > kick > > off his pashu bhava and chooses the " right track " and " merges " with > > Mother. > > According to teh tArA tantra(or is it Brahma yamala? - cant remember) > only one who has total control over his senses and devoid of > addiction to drinking and who is as good as a napuMsaka (eunuch) > before a para strI i.e. one who doesnt desire another's wife even in > thoughts , only they are vIra-s and fit for puja with 5Ms. > > Another tantra(probably the mahiSha-mardini tantra) clearly says > that " only one who has attained mantra siddhi is a vIra, not a > drunkard " . " siddha-mantrI(n) " is the exact word in the quotation. > > There can be no disagrement on other things you said about > varNAshrama dharma for followers of shrIvidya. > > Even some of the so called kaula texts lay emphasis on following > varNa dharma outside the kaula ritual. As we can see vAmAchAra is not > necesarily for the lowliest as it is being publicised in some other > forums. It is only for some advanced sAdhaka-s who are destined for > it. > > I personally know shrauti-s who follow kaula rituals with proper > substitues and there is no difference in siddhi. In such rituals, the > effect was the same(or similar) with little or no difference when > compared to a full fledged vAmA ritual. But the idea and the spirit > behind the usage of 5Ms has to be grasped completely - this is what I > was told. > > I am aware that vAmA and kaula are being clubbed here and dont like > to dwell on the differences now. > > Regards > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 21, 2008 Dear sir, Whether acharya sankara did bindu tarpana or not we donot know because we were not present at that time. Moreover, the acharyas like Sankara does not need bAhyA varivasya. Nirantara anusandhana of chitkala at Sahasrara is the Bindu Tarpana for them. For them, their own deha is the sriyantra, hridaya is the Pitha and sahasrara is the bindu. The anusandhana of the Chitkala at Sahasrara is the the bindu tarpana. This reminds me of Shri Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal who was a legendary figure in Srividya. His upasana was a unique and unusual. The sarada-chandramouliswara puja would continue the whole night. His paricharakas and others beside him would doze off. But swamigal used to do the anusandhana of each and every name of LS and would go into trance. Sometimes, the kumkuma and flowers that were used for worship of yantra, He would put on his head. He used to be in communion and total identity with Tripurasundari. THIS IS UPASANA. And that is what Acharya Sankara says in his commentary of Chandogya Upanishad. Upasana is not sprinkling some kumkuma, akshata, doing arghya, tarpana etc. Nirantara anusandhana of the nirupadhika akhanda purna chaitanya is upasana. BTW, the bindu tarpana in sringeri is performed with go-kshira (cow's milk). As regards the srividya in vaishnava cult, i have no idea. But yes, there is shakta worship for madhvas. But theirs is quite different from ours. My gurunatha has the copy of shakta worship that was followed by madhvas as he was quite close to some of the pundits belonging to bandareke and uttaradi mutt though he was a smartha. The guru of present muthadhipati of banderekere mutt was a chandikopasaka. The sakti nyasas pertaining to madhva sampradaya are quite different from that of ours. With regards, sriram , S Sangaranarayanan <sangarsai wrote: > > > When we say kaula marga, we mistake it to sex. This is totally wrong. Even Adi Sankara, contravening his sanyasa dharma, would have stopped to such a low level of " para stri ghamanam " in order to win over Bharathi on the Bliss experience of union. Certainly he had the capacity to transmit his divine energy and enjoyed the bliss of merging the jiva atma with parama atma. Accoding to me even Sankara when doing the worship of sriyantra, must have avoided the bindu tarpana, which tradition is followed by his followers and maths. > Let us try to understand that srividhya is athma vidhya and I know several devi upasakas who do not follow sankara's school of thought. There are several upasakas in the vaishnava cult who are great followers of parambha, as you would know that Lakshmi is the first lady of the universe and even the Vaishnavits are keen devi upasakas. > > Regards, > S.SHANGARANARAYANAN > > > > : satisharigela: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 05:26:57 +0000 Re: No vama marga for dwijas > > > > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> wrote:> We > should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara. When statements like these are made we should be a bit cautious.Those interested will follow Shankara's school. There is no binding rule on smArta-s to follow Shankara.Some stick to shuti smriti purana and tantra-s(those in line with shruti, smriti) without any special allegiance to shankara matha-s. > > > > > > _______________ > Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com > http://www.live.com/?scope=video & form=MICOAL > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 21, 2008 Dear Sriram, Can you please explain the Madhwa way of Srividya or Shaktha worship? Werent they primarily Hari bhakthas (Madhwacharya varlu, Raghavendra theertharu and the others)? Thanks, Raghav On 10/21/08, sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > > Dear sir, > > Whether acharya sankara did bindu tarpana or not we donot know > because we were not present at that time. > > Moreover, the acharyas like Sankara does not need bAhyA varivasya. > Nirantara anusandhana of chitkala at Sahasrara is the Bindu Tarpana > for Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 21, 2008 Namaste, If we go by " accordings " , each one of us can have our own opinion, which will simply take us miles away from the truth. A close friend known to my grandfather, an Iyengar, was a srividyopasaka par excellence. Probably such SriVaishnavas grew out of their mindsets of Narayana Paratvam by the better understanding of " Karanguli Nakhodaya Narayana Dashavathara " . Regards, Sudarshan sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: Dear sir, Whether acharya sankara did bindu tarpana or not we donot know because we were not present at that time. Moreover, the acharyas like Sankara does not need bAhyA varivasya. Nirantara anusandhana of chitkala at Sahasrara is the Bindu Tarpana for them. For them, their own deha is the sriyantra, hridaya is the Pitha and sahasrara is the bindu. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 21, 2008 , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > Why would one go for 5 Ms one WHO HAS TOTAL CONTROL OF SENSES, NO > ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL, PARA-STRI VIMUKHATA? Underlying this question is a false assumption that only people who has teh urge to drink alchohol etc would go for puja with 5Ms. This assumption is already shown to be false by the quotes from tArA and mahiSha-mardini tantra-s. The are some other tantra-s which say a similar thing. So no point in raising this question again. > This is simply ridiculous!!! The one WHO HAS PERFECT CONTROL OF > HIMSELF WOULD NATURALLY PREFER THE DIVYA BHAVA WHICH WOULD BE HIS > NATURAL INCLINATION. Above seems to be nothing more than a personal assumption. Please see trika texts or tantrAloka of abhinavagupta. > As regards the srautas following vama rituals, yes there are > substitutes for 5 Ms and i am aware of them which are called pancha > adi dravyas. Some of our own relatives follow these things in Andhra. > And i have cut off the relations with them. Because, for me they are > veda bAhyAs. And we don't allow them in our saha-pankti bhojana. > They become veda-bAhya-s only if they use forbidden substances. If some body becomes a veda-bAhya just because they adopted a kaula ritual then all shrIvidyopAsaka-s(because of its kaula origins), pA~ncharAtrin-s, saiddhAntika-s etc should be considered veda-bAhya-s. Anyway, not allowing someone in a saha-pankti bhojana will not grant siddhi nor moxa nor jnana nor bhagavat kripa other than some family melodrama. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 21, 2008 dear, <<They become veda-bAhya-s only if they use forbidden substances. If some body becomes a veda-bAhya just because they adopted a kaula ritual then all shrIvidyopAsaka-s(because of its kaula origins), pA~ncharAtrin-s, saiddhAntika-s etc should be considered veda-bAhya- s.>> Pl. refer the 18th sloka of subhagodaya stutih of acharya gaudapada. The dwijas adopting koula ritual is condemned. Even the misra-achara. regs, sriram , " Satish " <satisharigela wrote: > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> > wrote: > > > > Why would one go for 5 Ms one WHO HAS TOTAL CONTROL OF SENSES, NO > > ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL, PARA-STRI VIMUKHATA? > > Underlying this question is a false assumption that only people who > has teh urge to drink alchohol etc would go for puja with 5Ms. > > This assumption is already shown to be false by the quotes from tArA > and mahiSha-mardini tantra-s. The are some other tantra-s which say a > similar thing. So no point in raising this question again. > > > > This is simply ridiculous!!! The one WHO HAS PERFECT CONTROL OF > > HIMSELF WOULD NATURALLY PREFER THE DIVYA BHAVA WHICH WOULD BE HIS > > NATURAL INCLINATION. > > Above seems to be nothing more than a personal assumption. Please > see trika texts or tantrAloka of abhinavagupta. > > > > As regards the srautas following vama rituals, yes there are > > substitutes for 5 Ms and i am aware of them which are called pancha > > adi dravyas. Some of our own relatives follow these things in > Andhra. > > And i have cut off the relations with them. Because, for me they > are > > veda bAhyAs. And we don't allow them in our saha-pankti bhojana. > > > > They become veda-bAhya-s only if they use forbidden substances. > If some body becomes a veda-bAhya just because they adopted a kaula > ritual then all shrIvidyopAsaka-s(because of its kaula origins), > pA~ncharAtrin-s, saiddhAntika-s etc should be considered veda- bAhya-s. > > Anyway, not allowing someone in a saha-pankti bhojana will not grant > siddhi nor moxa nor jnana nor bhagavat kripa other than some family > melodrama. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 22, 2008 , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > Pl. refer the 18th sloka of subhagodaya stutih of acharya gaudapada. > The dwijas adopting koula ritual is condemned. Even the misra- achara. We need to look at a proper pramAna like a tantra or some Agama. Works like subhagodaya stuti or lakShmIdhara's commentary(on SL) could be colored/biased with personal opinions of their authors. We do not know if gauDapAda authored this work. Such attribution (probably by followers of shankara) of works to great teachers like gauDapAda has become increasingly common despite of the fact that these teachers had little or nothing to do with shrIvidya. Is any reason mentioned as to why dvija-s adopting a kaula ritual is condemned? When I say adopt, I meant those dvija-s who do not use 5Ms i.e people who replace alchohol with, say coconut water in copper vessel or milk or honey etc as per their varNa and those who use two joined flowers to represent maithuna etc. devI bhAgavathaM says that it is okay to follow tantra-s which are not opposed to shruti, smriti etc. So what smriti/s are violated by dvija-s who belong to the class described in para 2 above? Regards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 22, 2008 Dear satish, Are we smarter enough to decide whether acharya gaudapada / lakshmidhara are biased or not. Are we " more learned " than these acharyas. On the face of it, the kaula rituas, per se, are prohibited which involve duti yaga. Now, why should a dwija should go for kaula rituals WITH SUBSTITUTIONS AND REPLACEMENTS? regs, sriram , " Satish " <satisharigela wrote: > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> > wrote: > > > Pl. refer the 18th sloka of subhagodaya stutih of acharya > gaudapada. > > The dwijas adopting koula ritual is condemned. Even the misra- > achara. > > > We need to look at a proper pramAna like a tantra or some Agama. > Works like subhagodaya stuti or lakShmIdhara's commentary(on SL) > could be colored/biased with personal opinions of their authors. > We do not know if gauDapAda authored this work. Such attribution > (probably by followers of shankara) of works to great teachers like > gauDapAda has become increasingly common despite of the fact that > these teachers had little or nothing to do with shrIvidya. > > Is any reason mentioned as to why dvija-s adopting a kaula ritual is > condemned? When I say adopt, I meant those dvija-s who do not use > 5Ms i.e people who replace alchohol with, say coconut water in copper > vessel or milk or honey etc as per their varNa and those who use two > joined flowers to represent maithuna etc. > > devI bhAgavathaM says that it is okay to follow tantra-s which are > not opposed to shruti, smriti etc. > > So what smriti/s are violated by dvija-s who belong to the class > described in para 2 above? > > Regards > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 22, 2008 , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: > > Dear satish, > > Are we smarter enough to decide whether acharya gaudapada / > lakshmidhara are biased or not. Are we " more learned " than these > acharyas. These questions come because of inconsistencies in their(I am only referring to SL bhAShya here) works. This is about some of the uninformed and sweeping statements of lakShmIdhara makes. The right question that we should ask is not whether we are smarter or not but why and how did the inconsistencies creep in, and how do we rectify our current understanding/opinions on some issues in light of new evidence. > > On the face of it, the kaula rituas, per se, are prohibited which > involve duti yaga. Now, why should a dwija should go for kaula > rituals WITH SUBSTITUTIONS AND REPLACEMENTS? What is wrong with dUti yAga as long as it is performed with sva-strI? See the chapter on prapanchasara which talks about a parallel topic. The dvija-s who adopted these are not dullards. They adopted these rituals because of their ritual efficacy and due to thoroughness of the underlying theory behind the ritual in addition to being superior to existing systems in other aspects. For now I will stop here. Regards sa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 22, 2008 Satishji, My best regards to you. You have stated " Such attribution (probably by followers of shankara) of works to great teachers like gauDapAda has become increasingly common despite of the fact that these teachers had little or nothing to do with shrIvidya. " Such a statement is not acceptable unless proven with reference to the particular point at hand. I am sure you know that. Anbu [Namaste: Sometime in future i will get into the details of this with appropriate references. Till then these statments can be taken with a grain of salt. However, do remember that there are others, including indologists who hold such an opinion.-Satish] On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 3:20 AM, Satish <satisharigela wrote: > <%40>, " sriram " > <sriram_sapthasathi > wrote: > > > > Dear satish, > > > > Are we smarter enough to decide whether acharya gaudapada / > > lakshmidhara are biased or not. Are we " more learned " than these > > acharyas. > > These questions come because of inconsistencies in their(I am only > referring to SL bhAShya here) works. This is about some of the > uninformed and sweeping statements of lakShmIdhara makes. > > The right question that we should ask is not whether we are smarter > or not but why and how did the inconsistencies creep in, and how do > we rectify our current understanding/opinions on some issues in light > of new evidence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 22, 2008 Dear satish, <<The dvija-s who adopted these are not dullards. They adopted these rituals because of their ritual efficacy and due to thoroughness of the underlying theory behind the ritual in addition to being superior to existing systems in other aspects>> It is these dvijas and their drive for " ritual efficacy " that bade them to adopt the kaula rituals. They wanted to walk on the " rosy path " shown by kaula tantras and at the same time did not want to lose their identity as dvijas. The result was misra-achara. And they are hanging like trishanku svarga. AND PERHAPS TO BACKLASH THESE KAULA DWIJAS, WAS THE ADVENT OF OUR ACHARYA SANKARA. With regards, sriram , " Satish " <satisharigela wrote: > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> > wrote: > > > > Dear satish, > > > > Are we smarter enough to decide whether acharya gaudapada / > > lakshmidhara are biased or not. Are we " more learned " than these > > acharyas. > > These questions come because of inconsistencies in their(I am only > referring to SL bhAShya here) works. This is about some of the > uninformed and sweeping statements of lakShmIdhara makes. > > The right question that we should ask is not whether we are smarter > or not but why and how did the inconsistencies creep in, and how do > we rectify our current understanding/opinions on some issues in light > of new evidence. > > > > > > On the face of it, the kaula rituas, per se, are prohibited which > > involve duti yaga. Now, why should a dwija should go for kaula > > rituals WITH SUBSTITUTIONS AND REPLACEMENTS? > > What is wrong with dUti yAga as long as it is performed with sva- strI? > See the chapter on prapanchasara which talks about a parallel topic. > The dvija-s who adopted these are not dullards. They adopted these > rituals because of their ritual efficacy and due to thoroughness of > the underlying theory behind the ritual in addition to being superior > to existing systems in other aspects. > > For now I will stop here. > > Regards > sa. > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 22, 2008 Substitutions and replacements are done as pratyAmnAya. So, when makAra-panchaka are available why one should go for replacements. Which implies that entire ritual with replacement is also not acceptable by dwijas. And hence it is condemned. regs, sriram , " Satish " <satisharigela wrote: > > , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@> > wrote: > > > Pl. refer the 18th sloka of subhagodaya stutih of acharya > gaudapada. > > The dwijas adopting koula ritual is condemned. Even the misra- > achara. > > > We need to look at a proper pramAna like a tantra or some Agama. > Works like subhagodaya stuti or lakShmIdhara's commentary(on SL) > could be colored/biased with personal opinions of their authors. > We do not know if gauDapAda authored this work. Such attribution > (probably by followers of shankara) of works to great teachers like > gauDapAda has become increasingly common despite of the fact that > these teachers had little or nothing to do with shrIvidya. > > Is any reason mentioned as to why dvija-s adopting a kaula ritual is > condemned? When I say adopt, I meant those dvija-s who do not use > 5Ms i.e people who replace alchohol with, say coconut water in copper > vessel or milk or honey etc as per their varNa and those who use two > joined flowers to represent maithuna etc. > > devI bhAgavathaM says that it is okay to follow tantra-s which are > not opposed to shruti, smriti etc. > > So what smriti/s are violated by dvija-s who belong to the class > described in para 2 above? > > Regards > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 22, 2008 Dear Divine, it is time that we do not waste our time on such arguments. Suppose there is a upasaka in the north pole what he would eat. He need body heat to preserve. Kashnmir Uttarakaula is pertinent to the climatic conditions of that place and why should we condemn or appreciate. Let the upasakas choose the right way they think right and let us not put our fingers into their mouth and suggesting to them what is right or wrong. Regards, S.SHANGARANARAYANAN : sriram_sapthasathi: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:33:03 +0000 Re: No vama marga for dwijas Substitutions and replacements are done as pratyAmnAya. So, when makAra-panchaka are available why one should go for replacements. Which implies that entire ritual with replacement is also not acceptable by dwijas. And hence it is condemned.regs,sriram--- In Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 22, 2008 Shriram- What do you mean by Dvija? Do you mean: 1) Brahmin 2) Varnas 1-3 by birth. 3) Varnas 1-3 by Samskara of Upanayana 4) Varnas 1-3+ some of V4 who have got some type of Upanayana Samskara. 5) Smarta Brahmins only. Then what do you mean by Vama marga ? 1) Do you mean Vamashaiva who worship Tumburu with his 4 sisters, I mean Vinashikha tantra etc?. 2) Do you mean Dakshinashaiva worshiping Svachchhandabhairava. 3) Bhutashaivas who worship Khadgaravana ? 4) Garudas who worship Akashabhairava? Or worshipers of 10 Mahavidya-s or 5) All upasakas of Kaulamarga ? It appears that you imply that Dvijas should only follow the form of Shrividya advocated by Lakshmidhara and the Shankara Mutt? Perhaps your prescriptions might be limited to a subset of Smartas who are affiliated with particular Smritis and their tradition. Also consider: 1) kulAmR^itaikarasikA 2)kulasaMketapAlinI 3)kulA~NganA 4) kulAntasthA 5)kaulinI 6) kulayoginI >akulA 1) samayAntasthA 2) samayAchAratatparA Tradition says this is the teaching of hayagrIva to a dvija agastya. cheers, RR Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted October 23, 2008 Dear rajitha madam, I meant smartha brahmana. A smarta taking to leftist path loses his identity and is prohibited from performing vedic rituals. Because every vaidika mantra should be replaced with either Tripura Bhairavi or Bhairava. For example: The achamana is " apah punantu ……tripura bhairavim svaha " . The Vishnu mantra for karma kanda " idam vishnurvichakrame…… " is replaced with Bhairava. The offering of udaka is offering with Tripura Bhairavi ie., " drupadat iva munchatu …..tripura bhairavim " . Gayatri mantra is suffixed with Tripura Bhairavi. Arghya is offered to surya with " maha bhairavaya suryaya idam arghyam samarpayami " . The tarpana is " brahma bhairavam tarpayami " . Pitri tarpanam is " svapitaram bhairavam " and " tripyatam pitaram bhairavah " . And the rest of the tarpanas should be done with Bhairava Namavalih. So, the smarta who is doing this sort of upasana IS PROHIBITED FROM PERFORMING the sandhya anushtana, deva panchayatana, vaisvadeva, brahma yajna, pancha paka yajna and sapta havir yajnas and kratus. Now, the misra-achara crept in because these smartas took certain things for granted like soma pana in sautramani, mamsa bhakshana in vapa yajna and maithuna in one of the kratus. There was a mixture of these vaidika acharas and kaula tantras among the Smartas and landed in soup and utter confusion. A KAULA BRAHMANA LOSES HIS KULA & JANMA GOTRA WHICH IS A MUST FOR VEDIC KARMANUSHTANA. MOREOVER, I HAVE RESERVATIONS AGAINST THE PATRA-STHAPANA AND I WOULD LAUGH AT THOSE PERSONS WHO ARE USING NAGARA-KHANDA (GINGER) AND OTHER STUFF WHICH " THEY CONSIDER A VALID SUBSTITUTION FOR MAKARA- PANCHAKA " . AMONG THE " SHISHTA VAMACHARIS " OF SMARTAS, THERE EVOLVED A BRANCH WHICH TRIED TO REFORM THE LEFTIST PATH TO SUIT THEIR REQUIREMENTS (WHO DID NOT WANT TO LOSE THEIR IDENTITY OF BRAHMINS) WHICH APPROVED THE DUTI YAGA WITH SVA-STRI ETC. I HAVE PRAMANIKA CHAKRA-ARCHANA PADDHATI APART FROM SIVANANDANATHA'S " SUBHAGODAYA " WHICH PROHIBITS THE USAGE OF PATRA STHAPANA. EVEN THE SUBHAGODAYA DOES NOT MENTION ABOUT PATRA STHAPANA. Some of the pramanika srividyopasakas does not include patra- sthapana. Even the recent stalwarts of Srividya like Shri Tadepalli Raghavanarayana Shastrigal, Gollapudi Gopalakrishna Shastrigal, Kuruganti Venkataramana Shastrigal, Shri Himakuntala Atmaramiah, Shri Sitaramanjaneya Shastrigal (asmat gurunatha) prohibits the usage of this sthapana. With regards, sriram , " rajita_rajvasishth " <rajita_rajvasishth wrote: > > Shriram- What do you mean by Dvija? Do you mean: 1) Brahmin 2) Varnas > 1-3 by birth. 3) Varnas 1-3 by Samskara of Upanayana 4) Varnas 1-3+ > some of V4 who have got some type of Upanayana Samskara. 5) Smarta > Brahmins only. > > Then what do you mean by Vama marga ? 1) Do you mean Vamashaiva who > worship Tumburu with his 4 sisters, I mean Vinashikha tantra etc?. 2) > Do you mean Dakshinashaiva worshiping Svachchhandabhairava. 3) > Bhutashaivas who worship Khadgaravana ? 4) Garudas who worship > Akashabhairava? Or worshipers of 10 Mahavidya-s or 5) All upasakas of > Kaulamarga ? > > It appears that you imply that Dvijas should only follow the form of > Shrividya advocated by Lakshmidhara and the Shankara Mutt? > > Perhaps your prescriptions might be limited to a subset of Smartas who > are affiliated with particular Smritis and their tradition. > > Also consider: > 1) kulAmR^itaikarasikA 2)kulasaMketapAlinI 3)kulA~NganA 4) kulAntasthA > 5)kaulinI 6) kulayoginI > >akulA > 1) samayAntasthA 2) samayAchAratatparA > > Tradition says this is the teaching of hayagrIva to a dvija agastya. > cheers, > RR > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
