THE VIRTUE CALLED SUFFERING.

[Guest guest]

OM NAMO NARAYANAYA !

Aumji,Sudhakarji,and Thimmappaji  Your mails are revealing and

educative.Sudhkarji quoting Radhasaomi Mahoday`s teaching suggested that if we

suffer our entire karmic debts in this life we may escape repeated births and

deaths cycle.Thimmappaji rightly said Vedas never discriminated based on castes

or races.

That brings us to the point of total devotion and Bhakti  as  a common final

pathway to Mukti or Salvation.

Modern man can not perform Yagjnas,Yagas,Tantric rituals,tedious pilgrimages 

and Penance to achieve ultimate liberation.We have discovered short cuts for all

these.

We  fast,,sleep on thorns or even nails as a one time penance to achieve

salvation or soul liberation . While  fasting etc we meditate on  God`s

innumerable titles . 

" KALAU  SMARANAN  MUKTIH "  says a Sanskrit adage. In Kaliyug meditating  on, and

chanting Lord`s title  itself is a means of salvation.

Is suffering (for God) a virtue ? Do such self imposed sufferings remove and or

 neutralise our  karmic effects?  

I request all sadhaks along with seniors like Aumji,Shantnuji,Sudhakarji

,Thimmappaji   to give their learned counsel

Thanks well in  advance

ijswamy

 

 

~SWAMY

http://gjnanaswarup.spaces.live.com/blog/

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " J.SWAMY IRAGAVARAPU "

<jiragavarapu wrote:

..

> Is suffering (for God) a virtue ? Do such self imposed sufferings

remove and or  neutralise our  karmic effects?  

 

Respected Swamiji, Sufferings and pains are an integral part of

spiritual evolution.

 

But we should not yearn/wait for pains... as how much pain is

necessary for the development of the soul will come automatically to

us.

 

We should wait and yearn for the Divine Bliss only... and take

sufferings as the absence of that bliss

 

Love always

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

, " J.SWAMY IRAGAVARAPU "

<jiragavarapu wrote:

>

 

> Is suffering (for God) a virtue ? Do such self imposed sufferings

>remove and or neutralise our karmic effects?

 

No Swamiji, such self imposed suffering does nothing except boost the

ego of the person committing them.

 

People confuse Tapas with self torture. Tapas means that life is full

of difficulties- you face them head on without complaining or blaming

God or Karma. What is the need to looking for pain, when there is

already so much pain in the world?

 

But some people, unable to bear pains of world, decide by themselves

that they will deal with pain of their own making, not pain that

Nature is giving them. But such arrogance doesnt fool Nature, who

makes them suffer both physical pain & karmic pain.

 

Besides, in the Gita Krishna has clearly said " Some people of Asuric

nature, for attaining siddhis, torture the body or stop its normal

functioning " " I live in the Heart of all beings, & those who torture

the body torture me, the God living in it " .

 

Such torturing the body is only done for siddhis, not Gyan or moksha.

 

Violence is violence- whether done to someone else or yourself.

 

with love

Shantnu

[Guest guest]

, shanracer <no_reply wrote:

>

> Such torturing the body is only done for siddhis, not Gyan or moksha.

>

> Violence is violence- whether done to someone else or yourself.

>

> with love

> Shantnu

>

 

Yes dear shantnu i agree with you fully. In Kumbha Mela we can see

such jokers, one keeping his hand up for 12 years, another lying on

the bed of thorns, someone standing on one feet... and people

worshipping them as great saints.

 

These jokers are a joke of humanity a joke of spirituality and a

joke of hinduism.

 

Self torture or self suffering does not lead to moksha and it is

very much against the teachings of Geeta

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

Hari Om!

But, it is difficult to make a distinction between a penance which is equivalent

to tapasya and the psychic self-inflicted injury. We have heard of many tapasvis

going through gruelling sadhanas testing the physical and mental strength and

will. We have also seen the popular shows of ordinary men walking in fire, as a

fulfillment of a vow. 'Panchagni'-tapasya is said to be a difficult sadhana,

where the sadhak willingly places himself in the midst of  burning fire on all

four directions, with the scorching Sun burning from above. In Puranas, some

heroes did tapasyas like this for getting the mystic powers and armoury.

It is also not out of place to mention here that Kanchi Paramacharya once said

that when you are sick and had to undergo some suffering, you better suffer it

stoically rather than taking medicine. He cited some slokas which conveyed the

message that it is a blessing to suffer a disease, which is equivalent to doing

tapas. You are compelled to cut down all your unwanted physical activities and

remain within yourself. Hence, his advice was that as far as possible suffer

minor ailments and spend the time in divine thinking.

Hari Om tat sat!

ulaganathan p

 

 

 

shanracer <no_reply >

People confuse Tapas with self torture. Tapas means that life is full

of difficulties- you face them head on without complaining or blaming

God or Karma. What is the need to looking for pain, when there is

already so much pain in the world?

[Guest guest]

, " J.SWAMY IRAGAVARAPU " <jirag

 

Dear Swamiji,

 

Namaste!

 

I am certainly against these so called tortures in the name of

Sadhnaa. It is difficult to comprehend these people's mind set

who unnecessarily torture their bodies. Even now you keep reading

in newspaper about sadaks cutting their tongues etc., to appease

Matha and in the process incurring permanent deformity or even

death. They say if you commit suicide in one way or the other

you will definitely acquire body of a ghost and then God alone

knows for how long you will have to remain in that form.

 

If they really want to show Matha your love i personally think

devote more time to Meditation which will be fruitful. But mind

never allows you to sit for long in meditation so in order to

escape that they feel torturing physical body is better. Even

Lord Buddha fasted and tortured his body and then gave all up

stating these tortures are a waste and not needed at all.

 

Ofcourse but this does not alter the fact that sadhnaa is a path of

TEARS and true sadaks would rather go through it then give it up.

 

With warm wishes,

 

Sudhakar

HARI OM TAT SAT! Cheers! )

 

> OM NAMO NARAYANAYA !

> Aumji,Sudhakarji,and Thimmappaji  Your mails are revealing and

educative.Sudhkarji quoting Radhasaomi Mahoday`s teaching suggested

that if we suffer our entire karmic debts in this life we may escape

[Guest guest]

, ulaganathan p <apunathan wrote:

>

> Hari Om!

> But, it is difficult to make a distinction between a penance which

>is equivalent to tapasya and the psychic self-inflicted injury. We

 

No ulaganathanji, I dont think it is difficult at all. Tapasya is the

use of will to conquer our lower nature for spiritual reasons. How is

starving yourself going to help you spiritually? It feeds the ego.

 

If you overweight, fasting 1-2 times a week, cutting down on fatty

food maybe Tapasya, as it will help the Sadhak bring his body under

control. But a normal person, if he starves himself, doesnt accomplish

anything spiritually, even though normal people will be impressed.

 

Since most of us live in the mind, the ideal Tapasya is to control the

mind- which is where meditation comes in.

 

Au Aumji mentioned, people keep their hand in air for 12 years. What

does that accomplish? If God wanted us to have 1 hand, we would have

been only born with one. Such people are violent, but they are scared

to use their violence on others, so they use it on themselves.

 

If you think you are a big sinner- there are several ways to make

amends. You can help the poor, starving, offering free teaching,

voluntary labor for them. But all this means you will proably remain

unknown. Keeping 1 hand in air or only eating leaves for weeks, now

that will get you noticed! You will soon become a Guru. Thats why I

say, its a game of the ego.

 

The stories you speak of in the Puranas- well Puranas were written for

simple folk, not Yogis.

 

with love

Shantnu

[Guest guest]

, " spbyoga9 " <spbyoga9 wrote:

>

 

>

> Ofcourse but this does not alter the fact that sadhnaa is a path of

> TEARS and true sadaks would rather go through it then give it up.

>

 

And this is the key point Sudhakarji- life of Sadhak is already filled

with so many pains & struggles- why go looking for more? Rather, as

you said, since people dont have courage to face mental problems, they

torture their body.

 

love

[Guest guest]

HARE KRISHAN ,HARE RAM

 

 

with so many pains & struggles- why go looking for more? Rather, as

> you said, since people dont have courage to face mental problems,

they

> torture their body.

 

Thanks to all for great Satsang

 

 

My opinion about the TAP is that

 

TAP IS ALSO A KIND OF KARMA ,

 

If someone is of the NATURE OF DOING TAP than He should DEFINETELY

PERFORM TAP DHARMA . whatever SIDDHI is gained through Tap , ......

 

if that Siddhi is secrificed to the Lord Sri Krishan or utilized

for the God's Karma than it is also a kind of YOGA .

 

if that Siddhi is utilized for own enjoyment than it is known as

BHOGA

 

if that Siddhi is utilized for the destruction of others for selfish

motives than it is known as PAPA .

 

HARE KRISHAN ,HARE KRISHAN ,KRISHAN KRISHAN ,HARE HARE ,HARE

RAM ,HARE RAM, RAM RAM .,HARE HARE

[Guest guest]

Respected Members and Sadhaks,

 

I have too little knowledge as compared to you all. But still I would like to

say something.

 

Tapasya, I agree is the control of mind. This control can be achieved by various

ways. We intake food to give energy to our body so that we can perform our daily

activities. But food which we eat provides us with lower form of energy with

more of the Tamasic Guna which feeds us with Kama, Krodh, Moha, Lobha and

Ahamkaar. Hence those people who know this try to minimize the intake of food by

keeping fasts. They have no intentions of torturing themselves (as they think

scientifically), niether such a penance feeds their Ego. I would like to add

that at very advanced stages of Yoga (which includes all forms), one stops the

intakes of food completely and even water (it's a Siddhi which comes naturally

to them) it happens very naturally to them. This is because presently we are

thinking from the prospective of staying in city life where everything is

available. Just place yourself to that place like Himalayas or some remote

region where no food is available.

So in that case GOD gives that advanced Yogi the Siddhi of being alive and in

meditation without eating or drinking anything.

 

With Regards,

 

Prabhat

 

--- On Wed, 9/7/08, shanracer <no_reply > wrote:

shanracer <no_reply >

 

> Hari Om!

 

> But, it is difficult to make a distinction between a penance which

 

>is equivalent to tapasya and the psychic self-inflicted injury. We

[Guest guest]

Hari Om!

I agree for the most part. I think the difference lies in what state of mind,

you are while in fasting. Fasting really helps in containing the physical

impurities and the mind indirectly. At this stage, it is ideal to remain in God

consciousness. Fasting is a part of a common man's spiritual practice. However,

fasting by itself is not a virtue. It is worth fasting, if you desire to remain

in God's smaran.

 

Hari Om Tat Sat.

ulaganathan p

 

 

Prabhat Gupta <suprabhat_1999

Tapasya, I agree is the control of mind. This control can be achieved by various

ways. We intake food to give energy to our body so that we can perform our daily

activities. But food which we eat provides us with lower form of energy with

more of the Tamasic Guna

[Guest guest]

, Prabhat Gupta <suprabhat_1999

wrote:

>

>

> Tapasya, I agree is the control of mind. This control can be

achieved by various ways. We intake food to give energy to our body

 

Dear Prabhat,

 

i agree with you, Tapas is a part of our sadhna... but you will

agree that there is a hell of difference between Self-Torture and

Tapas.

 

Tapas is done to control the mind and body and short term Mauna or

fasting is a part of that ... but those sadhus not speaking for life

or standing on one leg, or raising their hand for 12 years or

sleeping on thron bed is self torture...

 

such self torture is strongly rejected by Krishna in gita

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

, aumji <no_reply wrote:

>

> , shanracer <no_reply@> wrote:

> >

> > Such torturing the body is only done for siddhis, not Gyan or

moksha.

 

Dear sadhakas,

what kind of sidhhis these " jokers " attain or try to attain by

torturing themselves? i think just for public attention such kind of

self torturing is not justified.

 

so hum...

[Guest guest]

Respected Shri Aum ji,

 

Every Sadhu, every spiritual aspirant was once a common person. Normally those

Sadhus who go on for these strict measures make up their mind to do so after

getting frustrated of some kind of weakness in them which they wanted to get rid

of but couldn't by normal means. Those means are just a way for them to

disciplining their mind. It's just their way and their concious choice. Anything

done with Conciousness, Awareness and Selflessness doesn't add any Karma nor it

is bad.

 

With Regards,

 

Prabhat

 

--- On Thu, 10/7/08, aumji <no_reply > wrote:

aumji <no_reply >

 

Dear Prabhat,

i agree with you, Tapas is a part of our sadhna... but you will

[Guest guest]

, aumji <no_reply wrote:

>

> Tapas is done to control the mind and body and short term Mauna or

> fasting is a part of that ... but those sadhus not speaking for

life

> or standing on one leg, or raising their hand for 12 years or

> sleeping on thron bed is self torture...

 

it is also possible that what is perceived by us as self torture, it

may be a natural kind of practise in order to accomplish some sidhhis.

These days a news channel is showing a maa bhakta prahalad in gujrat.

he has not eaten anything for 70 years also not urinated. team of 300

doctors kept him under vigil for so many days to check the

physiological chanmges....but he is natural. he is not doing it for

any public attention. it is quite natural with him as he is not

torturing himself.

it also does not mean that he has some special grace from the maa or

he is enlightened. We are accustomed to see things in a acceptable

way and if something which is not acceptable to our limited

knowledge, we try to see some magic or supernatural or some sidhis

etc. Also something which science can not explain, we immediately put

a label of these attributes.

There are so many things which cannot be understand with our limited

and logical mind..

 

only maa shakti knows the truth.

 

so hum...

[Guest guest]

Respected Shri Aum ji,

 

Those people whom you are calling " jokers " are still a part of that ONE SOUL, we

call GOD.

 

With Regards,

Prabhat

 

--- On Thu, 10/7/08, so hum <jigyaasuu wrote:

so hum <jigyaasuu

Re: THE VIRTUE CALLED SUFFERING.

 

Thursday, 10 July, 2008, 1:34 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ s.com, aumji <no_reply@.. .> wrote:

 

>

 

> @ s.com, shanracer <no_reply@> wrote:

 

> >

 

> > Such torturing the body is only done for siddhis, not Gyan or

 

moksha.

 

 

 

Dear sadhakas,

 

what kind of sidhhis these " jokers " attain or try to attain by

 

torturing themselves? i think just for public attention such kind of

 

self torturing is not justified.

 

 

 

so hum...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on

http://help./l/in//mail/mail/tools/tools-08.html/

[Guest guest]

HARE KRISHAN ,HARE RAM

 

Tapas is a part of our sadhna... but you will

> agree that there is a hell of difference between Self-Torture and

> Tapas.

>

> Tapas is done to control the mind and body and short term Mauna or

> fasting is a part of that ... but those sadhus not speaking for life

> or standing on one leg, or raising their hand for 12 years or

> sleeping on thron bed is self torture...

>

> such self torture is strongly rejected by Krishna in gita

>

 

Sir Ji ,

 

i think it is not possible for everybody to continue Tapas for long

without getting strength in the Body .

 

if the srength is given by the God in the form of Siddhi and if that

saint is now secrificing that tapas to the God than it becomes the

part of Sadhana .

 

but those who do not have enough strength in the body to sustain pain

for long ( initially like someone can not stand up for 24 hours and

suffer a lot of problems and if He does it than he goes to hospital

and ........... ) they will give pain to their body continously and

Lord Sri Krishan rejected tapas for these kind of people .

 

that is why i had written that those who are of the nature of Tapas

should definetely go for Tapas . here Nature includes so many things

not only the strength but so many other factors ....................

 

HARE KRISHAN ,HARE KRISHAN ,KRISHAN KRISHAN ,HARE HARE ,HARE RAM ,HARE

RAM ,RAM RAM ,HARE HARE

[Guest guest]

, Prabhat Gupta <suprabhat_1999

wrote:

>

> Respected Shri Aum ji,

>

> Those people whom you are calling " jokers " are still a part of

that ONE SOUL, we call GOD.

>

> With Regards,

> Prabhat

 

Yes dear Prabhat, all the murderers, the rapists, the torturers, the

folk who recently raped his grand mother under alcohol influence,

all the hitlers, osama, etc are all Brahma.. that does not mean we

must start worshipping them, or try to save them from blames.

 

If God wanted us not to speak, he would not have given us a

toungue, or if god did not want our one leg, he would have made lame.

 

What I have been writing is not my personal vague thoughts. These

are well based on what shri Krishna told in Geeta.

 

Please explain the shloka of gita where shri Krishna tells that

those who torture me, sitting in their soul, in the name of Tapas

are not fit to be Yogis.....before we discuss this subject further.

If Krishna said Wrong then we can accept all these self-tortures.

 

When we have reached the Brahmm consciousness, all the universe

becomes our part and there is nothing to criticise...but on sadhaka

stage we have to be careful of negative energies.

 

Shri Paramhans used to say - Ram is inside me, and Rama is inside

the ferocious lion too...but Rama in me should not touch the Rama in

lion...otherwise ....

 

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

, " so hum " <jigyaasuu wrote:

> doctors kept him under vigil for so many days to check the

> physiological chanmges....but he is natural. he is not doing it

for

 

 

Dear Sohum, it is the common belief that anyone doing an

extraordinary thing in the world or showing miracles is a saint.

 

Our crowd of common herds throngs to such cheaters, who in the

name of God show some " Haath ki safai " and people take them

enlightened souls.

 

I have not till date seen a self-torturing sadhu, to be

enlightened. On the other hand those who are enlightened are very

common people, not with any miracles or self-tortures.

 

Best examples are Sri Sri Ravishankar and Mata Anandmayi.

 

There is a very thin line between tapas and self-torture. While

I do admit that if we see from a higher level, those self-torturing

sadhus too are burning their karms,...but seeing from a common

sadhaka's view, it is just disgraceful to treat such magicians and

self tortureres as saints.

 

Still i dont think I have the capability to judge these sadhus,

whatever lot I saw were utter idiots doing self-torture to attract

people and to earn some livelihood. If you know one genuine please

let me know

 

Shanracer rightly said in one of his posts - violence is

bad...done to anyone or ourself.

[Guest guest]

>just their way and their concious choice. Anything done with

>Conciousness, Awareness and Selflessness doesn't add any Karma nor it

>is bad.

 

 

LOL. Prabhatji you have turned theory of being aware on its head.

 

A person who is aware will have no need to do such gimmicks.

 

A thing about being aware is- acceptance. Acceptance is what separates

the Masters from the students.

 

In this life we are born with many weaknesses, setbacks, disabilities.

The Yogi is one who accepts his weaknesses, & even then strives on,

caring nothing for the problems he faces. The Yogi knows he may never

reach his destination, yet he marches on, with assurance & confidence,

knowing that the Universe is taking care of him.

 

And finally, this body is just a temporary manifestation- those who

worry too much about trying to control their hunger are the same as

those who are always thinking about eating. Any control we get over

eating useless, any Siddhi to take food from air/sun, is useless, as

with the death of the body it too will die. The causal body where

Karma is stored lives only on Bliss of God & doesnt need any food.

 

So we should be aware of our weakness, but awareness is not the same

as obsession. If I cannot control my hunger its a weakness I should

try to overcome, but not at the expense of leaving everything else. My

main goal is enlightenment- hunger is a problem only if it interferes

with that goal. If I feel happy meditating after a good meal, then no

need to starve!

 

Dont get me wrong- Im not against fasting. Fasting is recommended by

Ayurveda, which says a whole day nothing must be eaten to give the

stomach time to rest & dispel old toxins. If you cannot stay without

food for 24 hours, you can eat once. Rather thinking about food all

day & getting tense, Rishis advised that we instead think of God. This

is a kind of Tapas- the hunger makes it hard to concentrate, but it

also makes our concentration much more powerful. And this Ayurvedic

fast isnt needed if you eat light, Sattvic food. But people have

changed fasting into a religon.

 

There must be moderation in everything. This is possible if you keep

our eyes on the goal- our goal is Moksha, & we have to be careful not

to get lost in jungles of self control.

 

with love

Shantnu

[Guest guest]

, Prabhat Gupta <suprabhat_1999

wrote:

Dear Guptaji,

 

Namaste!

 

Your stating Aumji has called them " jokers " is totally

wrong. In fact that word was used by Sohum.

 

Kindly refrain from saying such things to person who has

not said it at all.

 

I hope in future you would read carefully before passing

any comments.

 

With warm wishes,

 

Sudhakar

HARI OM TAT SAT! Cheers! )

[Guest guest]

, " spbyoga9 " <spbyoga9 wrote:

>

Dear sudhakarji, thanks for the concern...but it was indeed Aum (me)

who first used this world.

 

It was certainly not to insult such people, but taking them as a

source of entertainment for the crowd at Kumbh mela.

 

Specially the foreigners taking their pictures and showing it to their

people with the comments - see Idia !!! a coutry of jokers !!! "

 

 

Aum

[Guest guest]

, aumji <no_reply wrote:

 

I think Aumji is right there is difference between Tapas and self-

torture

 

Sudhakar ji is a yoga teacher and he will confirm that in yoga we have

to force the body in a certain posture. This is tapas not self

torture. I have also seen many people with Trishuls in their tongue

on beating themself with whips and i always avoided them but people

touch their feet and give them money

 

 

jaya

[Guest guest]

, aumji <no_reply wrote:

 

> There is a very thin line between tapas and self-torture. While

> I do admit that if we see from a higher level, those self-torturing

> sadhus too are burning their karms,...but seeing from a common

> sadhaka's view, it is just disgraceful to treat such magicians and

> self tortureres as saints.

 

Aumji, there is another reason- some real Yogis know the secret of

such Tapas, but other people try to ape them like monkeys. It is these

apes who become " Chamatkari Babas " , while the real Yogis remain hidden.

 

Take standing on 1 leg. There is an actual Hatha Yoga pose that does

that -Tree pose. Then to make it more difficult, you raise you arms

like the branches of a tree.

 

But this pose tests not our physical strength, but our concentration.

Its impossible to keep this pose of even 1 min if breath is disturbed

or mind is distracted. Try it. Try & calm your mind & breath- you will

easily be able to stand for few minutes, even if you havent done any

Hatha Yoga.

 

It is said this pose(like any) is mastered if we can hold it for 3

hours. But this is a test of concentration. Real Gurus would ask their

students to stand in this posture & chant their mantra. Only if their

concentration was 100% would they be able to keep it. The Guru would

make it more difficult by asking them to stand in flowing river where

they are pushed by the river, or other tough conditions.

 

But there is never any need to hold the pose for more than few hours-

as Hatha Yoga Gurus say once you master Tree pose, you can concentrate

in any pose, even sitting.

 

There is a thin line between Tapas & self-torture, as Aumji said. I

think if our eyes our firmly focussed on Moksha, the chance of our

slipping across the line are slim.

 

with love

shantnu

[Guest guest]

Respected Shri Aum ji,

 

God never tells us to start finding faults in others even one reaches higher

states. We have to admit that not everyone is on the same level of conciousness,

but we also should be aware that everyone is growing, moving towards HIM only. A

True Sadhak is just an observer, he doesn't react to anything because everything

he sees, he knows that it is just an illusion, a leela of some Higher Entity. A

true Sadhak sees GOD in everything and everything in GOD.

 

Also, the torture which Lord Krishna talks about shouldn't be interpreted in

terms of one's physical body. Soul is not much bothered about the pains and

pleasures of the body, infact it is not even influenced by it. Torture of Soul

is related to non-compliance with the laws of nature, not believing in HIM and

not following a path of devotion and service to GOD.

 

With Regards,

 

Prabhat

 

--- On Thu, 10/7/08, aumji <no_reply > wrote:

aumji <no_reply >

Re: THE VIRTUE CALLED SUFFERING.

 

Thursday, 10 July, 2008, 2:59 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes dear Prabhat, all the murderers, the rapists, the torturers, the

 

folk who recently raped his grand mother under alcohol influence,

 

all the hitlers, osama, etc are all Brahma.. that does not mean we

 

must start worshipping them, or try to save them from blames.