bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Yes. I felt it was worth speaking contructively against. I do not disagree with him totally. There is an underlying mood in his letter, which I dislike. That mood is institution before all.... Anyhow thx for listening, I am no authority on anything much, and am prone to be wrong. adios.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Anyone wonder why it matters to me since I have no intention of ever looking to Iskcon for siksa again and haven't for decades now? Well considering the personage of Srila Prabhupada and the mission Krishna gave to him I think everyone should care, not to the point of obsession, but should be concerned to see the pretenders to the thrown continue to obscure the teaching of God's pure servant which are meant to liberate suffering mankind from it's present fall into hell. Especially those of us in the West who carry an eternal debt to SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Thanks Theist. I admire some things like you express here. Maybe we are similar in some ways on these points. I would say my faith is a little less to be honest...(just a knowledge freak trying to simplify in middle age). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Quote: <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Either we are here because we want to follow Srila Prabhupada's way or we are here to cause trouble. It is as simple as that, folks. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> or to learn, consider and then share questions not even the best of the best, may not have been exposed to. such that prior to Srila, there was not usage of the internet and the volumes of material available times 100k that was available back then. Quote: <table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> The 'Pro Choicers' would have us believe that Srila Prabhupada's instructions are too complicated for our little brains and intelligence. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> Rather the other way around; as it appears the faithful are too busy being stuck on One set of beliefs rather than maintain the precept of compassion and honor the forum of articulation in which all parties can associate for the benefit of others, the future. posted by bishadi Thank you bishadi. It is refreshing to hear your perspective from a neutral platform. I agree with all this technology, healthy forum of debate would be beneficial. Rather than the ultimatum...'off with you scoundrel (trouble maker)...the highway for you!' And by the way, one thing you posted the other day has helped me alot upon reflection. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Thanks Theist. I admire some things like you express here. Maybe we are similar in some ways on these points. I would say my faith is a little less to be honest...(just a knowledge freak trying to simplify in middle age). I don't have any real faith. I just acknowledge a certain debt. Personally I disagree with a lot all of the GV teachers agree on. I take far more of the SB as allegory then they do and and teach. I am not interested in GV traditions either innovated or so-called traditional. I can appreciate much of it but it is just not for me to practice. I just remember reading Prabhupada when he said that we Westerns have one major failing...we always change things. You know the spiritual masters requests water and we will bring milk or orange juice or almost anything but water. We speculate too much and hear too little. Too much rajas, unbalanced minds. The one thing we need to do is to control the urge to do something sometimes and just let things be 'as they are'. Prabhupada teachings fall into this category IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Accepting life as guru's disciple is not like participating in a democracy or book of the month club. Disciple means to voluntarily follow the discipline prescribed by the spiritual physicain, guru. it is not a pick and choose situation. I am a picker and chooser type myself and therefore not any kind of disciple. What is problematic is other pickers and choosers who pretend and pose themselves as disciples and create so much havoc in the name of Prabhupada. Just like the so-called Christians who like to wear crosses around their neck, attend church and carry big Bibles around with them but who don't really follow the words and discipline of Lord Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 We speculate too much and hear too little. Too much rajas, unbalanced minds. The one thing we need to do is to control the urge to do something sometimes and just let things be 'as they are'. Prabhupada teachings fall into this category IMO. by theist Man, that's a good post:). I had a realization - which actually sprouted because of some a bishadi's abstract wisdom - in the last few days. I realized I am covered in layers like an onion. Heaps of layers! And that this process of self discovery will take lifetimes! I realized also with so many layers, the last thing I need is to layer myself more with unnecessary institutional crap and the likes. Things that are not the self. At one point the institution, the robes, the tilaka etc, gave me the sense of identity that I so sorely lacked. Now these things are like layers of an onion, hiding my smallness, my frailty....my beauty. The yearning for that small insignificant self to take courage to live within the Big Self is deep. That is spirituality for me...that is Iskcons mission, to assist that awakening. Not to add more layers on the oninion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Would you drive past this thumber on the highway, in your Gauranga bus. Or if you did pick him up would you give him the boot (with all the other baggage and ticks and balances). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amlesh Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 I do share the same point of view as Theist and Bija and I should thank Bishadi for his neutral but frank point of view which I find it as True. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 I had a realization - which actually sprouted because of some a bishadi's abstract wisdom - in the last few days. I realized I am covered in layers like an onion. Heaps of layers! And that this process of self discovery will take lifetimes! I realized also with so many layers, the last thing I need is to layer myself more with unnecessary institutional crap and the likes. Things that are not the self. At one point the institution, the robes, the tilaka etc, gave me the sense of identity that I so sorely lacked. Now these things are like layers of an onion, hiding my smallness, my frailty....my beauty. The yearning for that small insignificant self to take courage to live within the Big Self is deep. That is spirituality for me...that is Iskcons mission, to assist that awakening. Not to add more layers on the oninion! Yeah baby! Now we're trackin'. What you just expressed is what I hear in these books Srila Prabhupada so kindly brought to the world's attention. "Remember Krishna and never forget Krishna." See all living beings equally as spiritsoul. See krishna living in every being. One unlimited family under God all in a oneness so deep it is unfathomable and yet never extinquishing Krishna's gift to us of our very individual selves. This is the most beautiful philosophy and conception of the Absolute Truth the world contains within it. Why do we obscure and cover this reality with the very words and actions that are meant to reveal it? This is the result of playing church too long... we end up forgeting about God. It is something like standing in a dark room and wanting to see we turn on the switch and then immediately close our eyes to the light. Endlessly working on tweaking and perfecting a religious institution strikes me as like this, a distracting from the reality. Distracting ourselves from Reality is maya's job and we are still willfully taking shelter of her tricks. Religion is meant to be a step to Reality but if we mistake religion for that Reality then we get stuck in that plane thinking "we are the pious people... so unlike the others, the infidels, the heathen, the dirty karmis." Us and them. "We of the true religion and they the hopelessly fallen. To be saved they must become like us, pray like us, take our symbols as their own, pledge allegiance to our teachers alone". It is a sad thing when those preaching the one true teaching of oneness and unity come to view themselves as being so far separated and removed from others. Clearly Prabhupad was not motivated to spread the holy name throughout the world by this sort of attitude. To be honest just as I see the need for Jesus's teachings to be saved from the Christians I see Prabhupada's teachings needing to be saved from some Hare Krishna's. I have nothing further to add. I preached this much on this topic to my own embarassment by exposing myself as a hypocrite once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Yeah baby! I have nothing further to add too (for the same reason). Thank you Theist. George... Im living in the material world Living in the material world Cant say what Im doing here But I hope to see much clearer, After living in the material world I got born into the material world Getting worn out in the material world Use my body like a car, Taking me both near and far Met my friends all in the material world Met them all there in the material world John and paul here in the material world Though we started out quite poor We got richie on a tour Got caught up in the material world From the spiritual sky, Such sweet memories have i To the spiritual sky How I pray Yes I pray That I wont get lost Or go astray As Im fated for the material world Get frustrated in the material world Senses never gratified Only swelling like a tide That could drown me in the Material world From the spiritual sky, Such sweet memories have i To the spiritual sky How I pray Yes I pray That I wont get lost Or go astray While Im living in the material world Not much giving in the material world Got a lot of work to do Try to get a message through And get back out of this material world Im living in the material world Living in the material world I hope to get out of this place By the lord sri krsnas grace My salvation from the material world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Thank you bija! Sleep is overtaking me. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 sweet dreams ol'mate...of a spiritual pie in the spiritual sky;). With the cowherd boys and sticky milk-sweet fingers:idea:. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amlesh Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 I can understand that you know things AS IT IS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Knowing seems to be one thing...living that knowing is another. Patience and surrender. And hope. Maybe a leaf offered in love is enough to focus toward. Yesterday I was thinking who am I? What are my qualities and nature? It's quite an awakening actually, to realize I don't know who I am? In regards to the mystery of life and it's oneness, and if all layers were peeled back. Layers of possessions, layers of identity, layers of religion, layers of thought. What would remain? I would hope some 'gentleness and kindness' would be enough to see the face of God. None of these other trappings. I know nothing...and that's the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Prabhupada's Way or the Highway! Nice slogan for the historically challenged. Study the ISKCON history in Prabhupada's time for clues as to how that 'way' affected people and management of society. Those who suggest that that 'way' produced only good results and successful preaching are in a very deep illusion. Placing in position of control 'power junkie type' young sannyasis... sending 6 year old kids to India to be 'properly trained' by untrained strangers... placing women on the margins of society and giving them just four years of schooling... that was 'Prabhupada's way' too. Prabhupada adjusted his way all the time, based on pragmatism. Time, place and circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Prabhupada's Way or the Highway! Nice slogan for the historically challenged. Study the ISKCON history in Prabhupada's time for clues as to how that 'way' affected people and management of society. Those who suggest that that 'way' produced only good results and successful preaching are in a very deep illusion. Placing in position of control 'power junkie type' young sannyasis... sending 6 year old kids to India to be 'properly trained' by untrained strangers... placing women on the margins of society and giving them just four years of schooling... that was 'Prabhupada's way' too. Prabhupada adjusted his way all the time, based on pragmatism. Time, place and circumstances. I don't have to study the history. I was there. I know the spirit, the intention, the siddhanta that Prabhupada was preaching. There are things that can be adjusted and things that should never be adjusted and he knew the difference. Now everything is up for grabs. The traditional religionists are those that expect rigid adherence to formal diksa and all the rules appertaining. It their way or the highway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 ok...where is 'Pure Prabhupada' found? That is funny. Everyone claiming to hold the pure essence, or claiming a need to control that essence. I find these constant debates a turn off on the road toward Gaudiya Vaisnavism. I am sure some people outside of Hare Krsna circles would feel similar. And question what is all this discussion about. I thought you were into simplicity cbrahma. Or are you a holder of the 'pure way' too? Sorry, life is to short to have endless debates about Prabhupada and the original teaching. I wish I could just live the instructions...and surrender to them (but without sangha thats a big ask - and where is the sangha - its concealed in a divided fragmented institutional movement)! I would rather take the highway than listen to all these projections from others. And if that is rejecting Srila Prabhupada, in some peoples eyes, so be it! It is funny. Its a joke. Religionists with their demands on formal membership and the hundred and one dry rules and requirements are not controlling. Well you are debating. And there is some serious double-think going on here. It seems open season on Prabhupada, but dare question the traditionalists and any of the (huff - puff) little rituals and formalities they boast of and one is called apharadi who doesn't understand Vaisnavism. Prabhupada has been so flexible that many traditionalist don't even consider him to be part of the parampara. But that is not license for the free for all which is present ISKCON , a free-for-all only for the hoi-poloi in management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 bob... Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son" Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on" God say, "No." Abe say, "What?" God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but The next time you see me comin' you better run" Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?" God says, "Out on Highway 61." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 nah cbrahma...you have painted me as a picture. I dont give a damn about traditionalists or rituals. If you passed me in the street you would'nt even know I was a devotee. Most just think I am a bum. Please dont place me as one of the dried flowers in your pot-puree. I am none of that cluster. Look beyond your own picture of me please....thx. I am not even going to try and defend 'the open season on prabhupada' comment. I am this projection from your mind - I am you. Mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 bob...Oh God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son" Abe says, "Man, you must be puttin' me on" God say, "No." Abe say, "What?" God say, "You can do what you want Abe, but The next time you see me comin' you better run" Well Abe says, "Where do you want this killin' done?" God says, "Out on Highway 61." Not sure what bob dasa's commentary is meant to prove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 nah cbrahma...you have painted me as a picture. I dont give a damn about traditionalists or rituals. If you passed me in the street you would'nt even know I was a devotee. Most just think I am a bum. Please dont place me as one of the dried flowers in your pot-puree. I am none of that cluster. Look beyond your own picture of me please....thx. I'm not painting you at all. I am bringing out the injustice of the free-wheeling criticism of Prabhupada which has been informally authorized by the present self-deputed Vaisnava culture, mostly traditional, sometimes Gaudiya Math and today even ISKCON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Bob is meant to prove nothing. Thats the point. Just an old song about abe who had to kill his son coz of his 'religion'. Weird stuff that kind of religion:rolleyes:. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Bob is meant to prove nothing. Thats the point. Just an old song about abe who had to kill his son coz of his 'religion'. Weird stuff that kind of religion:rolleyes:. So bob has spoken dismissing the entire Abrahamic tradition. Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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