Nitya-siddha Sadhana-siddha- Is there a difference?

[theist 1]

TRANSLATION SB 7. ? (sorry forgot verse #)

My dear Prahlada, while you are in this material world you will exhaust all the reactions of pious activity by feeling happiness, and by acting piously you will neutralize impious activity. Because of the powerful time factor, you will give up your body, but the glories of your activities will be sung in the upper planetary systems, and being fully freed from all bondage, you will return home, back to Godhead.

 

PURPORT

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says: evam prahladasyamsena sadhana-siddhatvam nitya-siddhatvam ca naradadivaj jneyam. There are two classes of devotees—the sadhana-siddha and the nitya-siddha. Prahlada Maharaja is a mixed siddha; that is, he is perfect partly because of executing devotional service and partly because of eternal perfection. Thus he is compared to such devotees as Narada. Formerly, Narada Muni was the son of a maidservant, and therefore in his next birth he attained perfection (sadhana-siddhi) because of having executed devotional service. Yet he is also a nitya-siddha because he never forgets the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Conceptually, yes. Functionally, no.

That's just my speculation, though.

 

(hey, I'm a poet)

[Kulapavana 0]

BG 15.16

There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible (kshara), and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible (akshara).

 

In the purport to this verse Prabhupada says: "According to the statement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krishna, there are two classes of living entities. The Vedas give evidence of this, so there is no doubt about it."

 

This is confirmed by Lord Caitanya (CC Madhya 22.10-12)

 

"The living entities [jīvas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

 

"Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna.

 

"Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions."

 

If there was no difference between the two, I'm sure the shastra would say so. We could claim that since we are all spirit, there is NO difference. Yet this division is made in the sense of functionality. Some living entities (jivas)function as eternally liberated (they chose the right bank while swimming in the Viraja River of brahmajyoti) others function as eternally conditioned (they chose the material bank). One group lives in the world of spirit, the other lives here, in the world of matter. It is all very simple if you take it on face value.

[Beggar 0]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.5.11,

 

On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.

 

 

73/10/25 Bombay, Bhagavad-gita 13.26,

 

If you instruct a dog, "My dear dog, please surrender to Krsna," will he do that? So similarly, human being who does not surrender, he is no better than the dog. What is the difference between dog and this human being, go-kharas? The cats, the dogs, they cannot do it. And if you human beings, they cannot do also, then what is the difference? Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam ca samanyam etat pasubhir naranam. Simply eating, sleeping, sex life and defending. These are common things of the cats and dogs and the human beings. The human being is specially benefited when he surrenders to Krsna. Otherwise he is cat and dog.

So Caitanya Mahaprabhu knew that these cats and dogs, they are so degraded, they cannot understand what is the meaning of surrendering to Krsna. They cannot understand. Therefore He said, eho bahya, age kaha ara: "This is external. Please speak more, something effective." So when Ramananda Raya said, jnane prayasam udapasya namanta... This is a statement given by Brahma. Jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva san-mukharitam vartam, bhavadiya-vartam, sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhir ye prayaso 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyam.

 

When he proposed this verse, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "Yes, this is nice. This is nice." What is that meaning? Jnane prayasam udapasya. Because you are no better than an animal, so what is the value of your speculative knowledge? Jnane prayasam. Don't endeavor in this speculative way. Jnane prayasam udapasya. Give it up. Namanta eva. Just become namra humble, humble and meek. Lord Jesus Christ also said, "The Kingdom of God is for the humble and meek."

 

So namanta eva san-mukharitam bhavadiya-vartam. Just try to hear the message of God from realized soul. San-mukharitam bhavadiya-var... Simply hear. Then sthane sthitah, you remain in your position. It doesn't matter what you are. You remain in... Sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. Kindly give aural reception to the words, authoritative words, of Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, like that. Then... God is called ajita. Nobody can conquer. Krsna is... Another name is Ajita. He becomes jita, conquered, simply by hearing from him. Sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih.

 

So this is our real position to simply hear submissively and render service.

[Guruvani 0]

 

TRANSLATION SB 7. ? (sorry forgot verse #)

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 7.10.13

 

bhogena punyam kusalena papam

kalevaram kala-javena hitva

kirtim visuddham sura-loka-gitam

vitaya mam esyasi mukta-bandhah

 

SYNONYMS

bhogena -- by feelings of material happiness; punyam -- pious activities or their results; kusalena -- by acting piously (devotional service is the best of all pious activities); papam -- all kinds of reactions to impious activities; kalevaram -- the material body; kala-javena -- by the most powerful time factor; hitva -- giving up; kirtim -- reputation; visuddham -- transcendental or fully purified; sura-loka-gitam -- praised even in the heavenly planets; vitaya -- spreading all through the universe; mam -- unto Me; esyasi -- you will come back; mukta-bandhah -- being liberated from all bondage.

 

[Guruvani 0]

I realize my last post was off-topic, so I started another topic for it.

Sorry.

 

It came up when I was researching the verse that Theist has under discussion.

It wasn't anything planned.

I just saw something in the verse that stood out to me, so I diverted my topic to a different discussion of the verse.

[krsna 3]

Srimad Bhagavatam 10.14.3

 

jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva

jivanti san-mukharitam bhavadiya-vartam

sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhir

ye prayaso 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyam

 

SYNONYMS

 

jnane -- for knowledge; prayasam -- the endeavor; udapasya -- giving up completely; namantah -- offering obeisances; eva -- simply; jivanti -- live; sat-mukharitam -- chanted by the pure devotees; bhavadiya-vartam -- topics related to You; sthane -- in their material position; sthitah -- remaining; sruti-gatam -- received by hearing; tanu -- with their body; vak -- words; manobhih -- and mind; ye -- who; prayasah -- for the most part; ajita -- O unconquerable one; jitah -- conquered; api -- nevertheless; asi -- You become; taih -- by them; tri-lokyam -- within the three worlds.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Those who, even while remaining situated in their established social positions, throw away the process of speculative knowledge and with their body, words and mind offer all respects to descriptions of Your personality and activities, dedicating their lives to these narrations, which are vibrated by You personally and by Your pure devotees, certainly conquer Your Lordship, although You are otherwise unconquerable by anyone within the three worlds. :pray: :pray:

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

BG 15.16

There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible (kshara), and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible (akshara).

 

In the purport to this verse Prabhupada says: "According to the statement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krishna, there are two classes of living entities. The Vedas give evidence of this, so there is no doubt about it."

 

This is confirmed by Lord Caitanya (CC Madhya 22.10-12)

 

"The living entities [jīvas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

 

"Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna.

 

"Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions."

 

If there was no difference between the two, I'm sure the shastra would say so. We could claim that since we are all spirit, there is NO difference. Yet this division is made in the sense of functionality. Some living entities (jivas)function as eternally liberated (they chose the right bank while swimming in the Viraja River of brahmajyoti) others function as eternally conditioned (they chose the material bank). One group lives in the world of spirit, the other lives here, in the world of matter. It is all very simple if you take it on face value.

 

Question 1) How can the separation mood from Krsna develop in one who believes that they are already in Goloka? (with Krsna by definition)

Answer - Nitya siddha's never fall down, they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds. Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established however, when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering) Therefore we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud obscurity which is the nitya-baddha consciousness. This cloud covering is now what we are only aware of, we no longer know or believe we are in Goloka because our factual ‘awareness’ of existence IS no-longer in Goloka. We forget that our nitya-baddha consciousness, like the cloud blocking the sun, is blocking any awareness to our nitya-siddha svarupa in Goloka. Our eternal constitutional position as nitya siddha, is no longer visible to our eye. Just like one forgets the sun due to the cloud cover, we completely forget our nitya-siddha body because of our nitya baddha covering. We are not able to see the sun shinning (our nitya-siddha body) due to the cloud or nitya baddha consciousness blocking our vision of the sun. The sun is always there, it has not gone anywhere, similarly our nitya-siddha body is always there in Goloka and also has not gone nowhere however; we cannot realized this because of the cloud or nitya-baddha covering therefore, we are only aware of being nitya-baddha and have no conviction, memory, evidence or visionally proof that we were ever nitya siddha. We simply cannot realize we are nitya siddha while we are nitya baddha. Only by becoming Krishna Conscious can the cloud cover (nitya-baddha) be lift or the dust (nitya-baddha) be removed from the mirror so we can see our real self

Question 2) How could there be real humility if you believe that you are just as good as Krsna's parishads? (parishad=eternal associate)

What is the meaning of "go BACK HOME back to Godhead" if the soul is already back home, back to Godhead but just simply doesn't realize it.

Why would one need to GO anywhere if in fact he is already there?

Back home BACK to Godhead most surely portrays the concept that the soul must leave this realm and enter another realm beyond this one.

So, even the basic concept of BACK to Godhead tells us that there is a journey to another place required to get BACK HOME back to Godhead.

If we were already there, then there could be no GOING BACK.

Answer – We are not in Goloka consciously while we are nitya baddha. We can’t be nitya-siddha while acting as nitya baddha because we cannot see or be aware of that covered nitya-siddha identity. While being nitya-baddha one has no awareness of being nitya-siddha because factually they are not nitya-siddha in consciousness.

Question 3) If I believe that I am already a nitya siddha associate of the Lord why would I think my guru will guide me also in the spiritual world?

Answer – At the moment our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha and remains so until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with devotional Krishna Conscious desires, then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious identity.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never falling down, he is saying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over only and their memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds. Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

In fact most devotee's in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha, be covered by nitya baddha however, up to 25% do allow themselves to be covered. Such inconceivable statements are inconceivable because how is it possible to calculate 75% and 25% in an endless Spiritual creation. The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine they do while most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Srila Prabhupada – “You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never fall down, he issaying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over only and their memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming. What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddhas just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds. Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

B - Jiva-tatastha - Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being. Jiva tatastha therefore is us or ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality. Jiva-tatastha is also known as the marginal living entity or jiva-tattva that can established in a loving relationship with Krishna in Goloka, or a loving servitor relationship with His Vishnu-tattva expansions in Vaikuntha. Nitya-siddha’s have different names in different pastimes due to the fact that they never fall down. In fact most never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be covered however up to 25% do allow themselves to be covered. Such inconceivable statements are inconceivable because how is it possible to calculate 75% and 25% in an endless Spiritual creation. The nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however imagine they do while most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place>

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity is originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

"If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal". (See CC Adi 2.96)

C - Free will – Allows us to communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in a selfless manner for all eternity. This loving exchange or reciprocation with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotional service and gratitude to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of how to express and ones self, then how can there be love?

D - In-between the spiritual creation and the material creation. We therefore eternally exist independently as a part and parcel of the internal energy or life force. We are not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation; we are under the influence of free will that can choose between serving Lord Krishna, or being a slave to His illusionary energy (mahat-tattva). Due to the eternal present in Goloka, our authentic everlasting nitya-siddha bodily self is always serving Krishna, regardless however, we can choose to ignore Krishna and not be aware of who we really and sub-consciously take shelter of the perishable inferior energy or mahat-tattva material creation of Maha-Vishnu. This material energy, like a cloud that covers the sun, covers our awareness of who we really are in the perpetual ‘present’. And puts us in the illusion of past, present and future that’s effect is decay and forgetfulness.

“The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time”. Bhaktivinode Thakura.

E - Impersonal Brahmajyoti. We can also choose to enter impersonal Brahmajyoti in a dormant dreamless state, after becoming fed up with the temporary bodily vessels on offer within the mahat-tattva

Conclusion There is only one imperishable reality that is Goloka and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s surrounding Vaikuntha planets where His Vishnu-tattva expansions reside and served by unlimited nitya-siddha devotees. Reality means eternally established in the 'endless present', where there is no past or future, as we know it. There is also only nitya-siddhas, one class of living entity in Goloka’s eternal presets serving <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. The nitya baddha consciousness is simply and illusion that is real but temporary that that we create with our mind due to our freewill. We make the choice in our independent way of thinking that sub-consciously appears to make us leave Goloka and our awareness of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, but actually we have not gone anywhere, we have only imagined we have. That independent mistaken desire and choice, covers our awareness like a cloud covers the sun, but actually we are the same person, there is only the nitya-siddha devotee, but due to the cloud cover it only appears there are two classes of living entities. The name for that covered state, that is the product of thought of the mind, is nitya-baddha, but actually nothing has really changed, one is the same one person they have always been, which is nitya-siddha, but due to being covered, we cannot see that, in fact. we are now convinced we are the covered nitya-baddha because we are no longer aware of who we really are (nitya-siddha)

In other words, just as the cloud covers our view of the sun, our nitya-baddha condition of restricted consciousness, like the cloud covers the sun, covers our realization of our eternal constitutional nitya siddha Krishna Conscious position

 

[Kulapavana 0]

 

In other words, just as the cloud covers our view of the sun, our nitya-baddha condition of restricted consciousness, like the cloud covers the sun, covers our realization of our eternal constitutional nitya siddha Krishna Conscious position

 

 

Sarva, you did not answer a single question. You simply post the same quotes over and over, never addressing the questioned points. You intend to bore us to death with your droning on and on with the same inconsistent material.

[Kulapavana 0]

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B - Jiva-tatastha - Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being.

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Is material world a real place?

Is spiritual world a real place?

 

If you answer yes, then the boundary between the two is real as well. That place is called the tatastha region.

 

The Viraja River of Brahman flows between the two worlds and is a home to tatastha-shakti, or living entities like you and me.

 

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[Sarva gattah 0]

 

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B - Jiva-tatastha - Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being.

 

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Is material world a real place?

Is spiritual world a real place?

 

If you answer yes, then the boundary between the two is real as well. That place is called the tatastha region.

 

The Viraja River of Brahman flows between the two worlds and is a home to tatastha-shakti, or living entities like you and me.

 

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All I am describing here is that the living entities are independent

Krishna has three energies, superior, marginal and inferior, the jiva tatasthas are the marginal, of course they are either serving Krishna in Goloka (spiritual world) or are covered by the mahat-tattva (material world)

My point is that jiva-tatastha (marginal living entity) , simply refers to their individual independence

[stonehearted 0]

 

B - Jiva-tatastha - Tatastha s’akti is not a place; it refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being.

 

JIva-tatastha is a made up term--invented by you. In fact, tatastha describes the jiva's vulnerablilty due to its smallness, more than its sovereignty. God is sovereign, and all others are His servants. (Jeez--just look it up in a dictionary.) The jiva is independent, but only minutle so, and in a very limited way. Read the books, assimilate the teachings of the guru-paramapara, and quit trying to be some sort of two-bit muni.

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

JIva-tatastha is a made up term--invented by you. In fact, tatastha describes the jiva's vulnerablilty due to its smallness, more than its sovereignty. God is sovereign, and all others are His servants. (Jeez--just look it up in a dictionary.) The jiva is independent, but only minutle so, and in a very limited way. Read the books, assimilate the teachings of the guru-paramapara, and quit trying to be some sort of two-bit muni.

 

Thanks for the complement; I will forgive you for being nasty however, the terminology jiva tatastha is not my invention

Sanskrit dictionary - Tatastha-s'akti: the living being, the intermediate energy of the Supreme Lord also known as jiva tatastha.

 

Jiva Tatastha is not a place or region in between the spiritual and material worlds, tatastha refers to the marginal living entities, jiva tattva, jiva tatasthas

 

[Sarva gattah 0]

 

Sarva, You simply post the same quotes over and over, with the same consistent material.

 

Srila Prabhupada “Repetition of scripture is necessary otherwise you will forget, we are constantly repeating the name of Krishna so we will never forget” Srimad Bhagavatam Class <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st="on">Los Angeles</st1:City></st1:place> 1973

[Beggar 0]

 

Sanskrit dictionary - Tatastha-s'akti: the living being, the intermediate energy of the Supreme Lord also known as jiva tatastha.

 

Jiva Tatastha is not a place or region in between the spiritual and material worlds, tatastha refers to the marginal living entities, jiva tattva, jiva tatasthas

 

According to that definition one can refer to an individual jiva as a jiva tatastha. But parasya shaktir vividhaiva sruyate, the Lord has unlimited energies. So the tatastha shakti is an energy of the Lord and is therefore infinite. This doesn't mean the individual jivas are infinite (they are infinitesimal), but one implication of this is that there are an infinite number of jivas. Then by definition the tatastha shakti is infinite. The Lords energies are infinite and always expanding, so there are always new jivas being generated, although this all takes place beyond time and is inconceivable to our tiny brains. Now the next question is whether the tatastha shakti of the Lord is a place or a region? tata means the shore of a river, lake or sea. Where does the sand end and the water begin? Very tricky! But since everything exists within consciousness or brahman (the consciousness of Bhagavan or God) is any where a place or region? So we can see that all these terms and definitions are given for us, the conditioned souls as a road map to go back home, back to Godhead. The idea that in our conditioned state only time separates us from our eternal existence in Krsna Loka is a good thought. But such a thought must be applied in the proper way. I believe that this is the crux of the debate here. I also believe that Svarupa, Sarva-gattah, Vigrah, Asvathama, Ramai Swami are fearful of looking at this in an objective way. Its like if they have have a rational debate and consider anything that we write that they will be consumed by the bogey man of impersonalism. Over the last two days we have brought up two questions, then three, then four and asked for an answer. But nothing is forthcoming, only rhetoric and propaganda.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

 

Srila Prabhupada “Repetition of scripture is necessary otherwise you will forget, we are constantly repeating the name of Krishna so we will never forget” Srimad Bhagavatam Class Los Angeles 1973

 

Prabhupada's purports and letters are not shastra. And just like you are misrepresenting my quotes:

 

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Sarva, You simply post the same quotes over and over, with the same consistent material.

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This is not what I said - I said inconsistent, because the quotes you are using ARE inconsistent.

 

 

you are also misrepresenting both Prabhupada's quotes and shastra.

 

All this sleepervada nonsense came about because Prabhupada's disciples felt like they had to explain the contradictions and inconsistencies in Prabhupada's explanations. Instead of clearing things up, they made even a bigger mess. Thus the contorted explanations got even more confusing and complicated. Denying the fact that jivas are factually in the material world tops this exercise in misleading double talk and misrepresentation of GV siddhanta.

 

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? You should shave your head with it some time. You need it BAD.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

[Sarva gattah 0]

I cannot agree with you on your CRAZY speculations, all living entities are perpetually nitya siddha, they are NOT generated out of some nonsense plain sheet of consciousness, such impersonalism, rather Mayavardism!! is rejected by Srila Prabhupada. Never was there a time when ALL jivas did not exist and in the future non of them will cease to be. What you have written is totally bogus

 

Your presentation is a silly idea

 

Quote:

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Srila Prabhupada “Repetition of scripture is necessary otherwise you will forget, we are constantly repeating the name of Krishna so we will never forget” Srimad Bhagavatam Class Los Angeles 1973

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[theist 1]

 

Conceptually, yes. Functionally, no.

That's just my speculation, though.

 

(hey, I'm a poet)

 

And would you agree that that conceptual difference would only be noticed from the material platform?

[theist 1]

 

BG 15.16

There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible (kshara), and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible (akshara).

 

In the purport to this verse Prabhupada says: "According to the statement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krishna, there are two classes of living entities. The Vedas give evidence of this, so there is no doubt about it."

 

This is confirmed by Lord Caitanya (CC Madhya 22.10-12)

 

"The living entities [jīvas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

 

"Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna.

 

"Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions."

 

If there was no difference between the two, I'm sure the shastra would say so. We could claim that since we are all spirit, there is NO difference. Yet this division is made in the sense of functionality. Some living entities (jivas)function as eternally liberated (they chose the right bank while swimming in the Viraja River of brahmajyoti) others function as eternally conditioned (they chose the material bank). One group lives in the world of spirit, the other lives here, in the world of matter. It is all very simple if you take it on face value.

 

Kulapavana, Are you sure you understood the question? This is concering nitya-siddha and sadhana-siddha (not nitya-baddha).

[theist 1]

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 10.14.3

 

jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva

jivanti san-mukharitam bhavadiya-vartam

sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhir

ye prayaso 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyam

 

SYNONYMS

 

jnane -- for knowledge; prayasam -- the endeavor; udapasya -- giving up completely; namantah -- offering obeisances; eva -- simply; jivanti -- live; sat-mukharitam -- chanted by the pure devotees; bhavadiya-vartam -- topics related to You; sthane -- in their material position; sthitah -- remaining; sruti-gatam -- received by hearing; tanu -- with their body; vak -- words; manobhih -- and mind; ye -- who; prayasah -- for the most part; ajita -- O unconquerable one; jitah -- conquered; api -- nevertheless; asi -- You become; taih -- by them; tri-lokyam -- within the three worlds.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Those who, even while remaining situated in their established social positions, throw away the process of speculative knowledge and with their body, words and mind offer all respects to descriptions of Your personality and activities, dedicating their lives to these narrations, which are vibrated by You personally and by Your pure devotees, certainly conquer Your Lordship, although You are otherwise unconquerable by anyone within the three worlds. :pray: :pray:

 

This is a nice verse. If someone thinks there is a difference between a sadhana-siddhi and a nitya-siddhi let him explain that difference. Are we too assume that Krsna is somehow less conquered by a sadhana siddhi?

 

That would be absurd of course. So if Krsna sees no difference then what is the value of any other opinion?

 

There is no difference between the two.

[theist 1]

Thanks to Murali, Guruvani and Krsna for staying on topic.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

And would you agree that that conceptual difference would only be noticed from the material platform?

 

Absolutely!! That's why I say that, in a sense, everybody is right in this philosophical discussion (though the Vaishnava aparadha of some must be roundly condemned).

 

That's also why I keep coming back to the question: which attitude is most *useful* to us in our practicing lives, that we are eternally perfect, or that we are most fallen?

[Guruvani 0]

 

Sanskrit dictionary - Tatastha-s'akti: the living being, the intermediate energy of the Supreme Lord also known as jiva tatastha.

 

 

 

You are a liar.

Tatastha shakti is two words and is not in the Sanskrit dictionary.

 

 

 

 

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results

 

<!-- SQL query: select buch,st,en from tamil where buch=1 and (st regexp '[[:<:]]Tatastha[[:>:]]') order by st --> <table cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1</td> <td valign="top"> taTastha</td> <td valign="top">mfn. standing on a declivity or bank Naish. iii , 55 ; = %{-sthita} , Ma1latim. Naish. iii , 55 ; m. an indifferent person (neither friend nor foe) W. ; n. a property distinct from the nature of the body and yet that by which it is known , spiritual essence , Veda7ntak.</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[stonehearted 0]

 

Thanks for the complement; I will forgive you for being nasty however, the terminology jiva tatastha is not my invention

Sanskrit dictionary - Tatastha-s'akti: the living being, the intermediate energy of the Supreme Lord also known as jiva tatastha.

 

Jiva Tatastha is not a place or region in between the spiritual and material worlds, tatastha refers to the marginal living entities, jiva tattva, jiva tatasthas

 

I appreciate your forgivng my crabbiness; I'm a little under the weather nd not my usually sunny self.

 

Here's my gripe (and it is minor, peripheral): tatastha is the jiva's nature, its character. I agree it's not a physical location in this context. It means located on the tata--literally the littoral zone. However, it's used figuratively in this context. The phrase (or compound word--you seem to use it both ways) jiva-tatastha is found nowhere except in your writings. It's your coinage, but you use it as though it were a mantra you received from your guru. I just find it grating, and I apologize for bringing it up.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Kulapavana, Are you sure you understood the question? This is concering nitya-siddha and sadhana-siddha (not nitya-baddha).

 

I understand both the question and the verses I posted. Only from the nitya baddha category the sadhana-siddhas can arise. Madhvacarya actually went as far as to propose that most nitya-baddhas never make it out of this world, because they like it here. But if they do get out, they are called sadhana-siddhas.

 

To turn this around: If everybody is nitya-siddha, who is sadhana-siddha?

 

I'm sorry I did not make the connection earlier, I see your point.