Requesting SAC’s Assistance

[suchandra 1]

These are real difficult questions probably only a Sastric Advisory Council can answer.

 

To the Executive Committee of the GBC Oct 8 2007

Respected Vaiñëavas,

Please accept our humble obeisances. All glories to Çréla Prabhupäda.

The EC asked the Çästric Advisory Committee (SAC) to offer some assistance in the GBC’s consideration of the request that Çukadeva Mahäräja be allowed to initiate disciples. Çukadeva Mahäräja received all of his initiations from Kértanänanda Svämé, the former ISKCON guru and sannyäsé. Here is the letter from Léläçuka Däs requesting SAC’s assistance:

“On request of the GBC Executive Committee, I am presenting you the following issue: HH Sukadeva Swami has approached the South Indian Divisional Council for approval as an ISKCON initiating guru. He is originally from Andhra Pradesh, joined in <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Bombay</st1:place></st1:city> in the late 70’s or early 80’s, and took initiation as well as sannyasa from Kirtanananda. He was in charge of Kirtanananda’s center at Kurukshetra in the late 80’s or early 90’s. He was welcomed back in ISKCON around the same time as the Chowpatty devotees, but he did not take reinitiation subsequently. He still preaches in Kurukshetra in cooperation with the ISKCON temple there and is also preaching in some previously undeveloped areas of Andhra Pradesh.

“The South Indian Divisional Council was reluctant to consider his application until it was clarified whether there would be any future objection on the technical grounds that he could not submit a letter from his diksa-guru directing him to go through the authorization process. The matter came to the India RGB. Jayapataka Swami gave an undertaking to the RGB that he would approach the GBC Body for clarification on this point. I am assisting him in this regard.

“First, for your reference, here is the entire current ISKCON law section on eligibility to be a guru, updated to include the change made in 2002:

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6.3 Eligibility of Devotee to Be Guru in ISKCON

6.3.1 All Devotee’s Initiations From ISKCON Gurus

1. No devotee shall be eligible to become a diksa-guru in ISKCON unless

he has received all of his initiations from ISKCON-approved gurus in good

standing.

2. A devotee initiated by a bona fide Gaudiya Vaisnava guru before

joining ISKCON may be considered as a special case by the GBC body.

6.3.2 No One Can Give Diksa While Guru is Present

As taught by Srila Prabhupada, the etiquette of not initiating in the

presence of one’s diksa-guru will be upheld in ISKCON. However, Srila

Prabhupada and historical precedents also teach us that disciples may

sometimes initiate in the physical presence of their diksa-gurus. If a diksa-

guru desires for this to happen, he can direct his disciple to go through

the normal GBC procedure for initiating.

6.3.3 Requirement for Consent of Mantra Guru

Devotees who have received first initiation from Srila Prabhupada and

second initiation from one of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples may, with the

written consent of the mantra-guru, be accepted as candidates for initiating

spiritual master like any of Srila Prabhupada’s other disciples.

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“Could the Sastric Advisory Council discuss this problem and inform the GBC EC how they see a solution through sastric references?”

SAC’s Reply

The SAC has decided to accept the request to consider the specifics of this case.

Upon careful study, we believe that the following ISKCON law needs to be revised:

“6.3.1—All Devotee's Initiations From ISKCON Gurus: (1) No devotee shall be eligible to become a diksa-guru in ISKCON unless he has received all of his initiations from ISKCON-approved gurus in good standing.”

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This law appears to be in conflict with the GBC paper on reinitiation. That paper gives the circumstances in which it is necessary for a devotee to retake mantras.

That law, based on çästric evidence, says that one should retake mantras if the guru is not a Vaiñëava or has become something other than a Vaiñëava (e.g. a Mäyävädi) or if he becomes inimical to Vaiñëavas.

The basic definition of a Vaiñëava is given in Hari-bhakti-viläsa and its commentary (1.55) verse as follows:

 

 

gåhéta-viñëu-dékñäko viñëu-püjä-paro naraù |

 

 

 

vaiñëavo’bhihito’bhijïair itaro’smäd avaiñëavaù ||

 

avaiñëava ity uktam | taträdau sämänyato vaishnava-lakñaëaà likhan tad-itaratvenävaiñëavaà lakñayati—gåhéteti | asmad vaiñëaväd itaro bhinnaù ||55||

“After having taken Vaishnava initiation, a person should involve himself seriously in worship of Lord Vishnu. Such a person is designated a Vaishnava by those who are learned, while a person who is different than this is called a non-Vaishnava.” The term ‘non-Vaishnava’ has been spoken. ‘Non-Vaishnava’ is herein defined by first listing the general characteristics of a Vaiñëava and then stating that a non-Vaishnava is someone who is different from that.”

Thus far, our definition of a Vaiñëava is one who has taken Vaiñëava initiation and is seriously worshipping the Lord. Therefore, a devotee who has these basic symptoms is a Vaiñëava even though he may be having difficulty in his spiritual life.

Full article

[theist 1]

Such ecclesiastical silliness. Here is someone submitting an application to be authorized to be an initiating guru in Iskcon to the GBC who says they have no hand in approving guru's, they leave that totally up to the disciples. IOW the disciples are free to pick from anybody but only from their preapproved list.

 

What earthly committee approved Srila Prabhupada's application to be guru? Oh that's right, he never submitted one to anybody. He just relied on the instruction from Bhaktisiddhanta and Krsna.

[jnani 0]

Srila Prabhupada preached with genuine authority.

[theist 1]

 

Srila Prabhupada preached with genuine authority.

 

Yes there is the transcendental system and the ecclesiastical system. Which one will we be most attracted too?

[Guruvani 0]

Obviously, this kind of situation shows and proves that in ISKCON the GBC is over and above the gurus.

Otherwise, this "sannyasi" would be concerned about whether or not his "guru" Kirtanananda Swami wants him to accept disciples.

Usually, a disciple does not accept disciples as long as his own spiritual master is still present in the world and accepting disciples himself.

 

If the person actually accepts Kirtanananda Swami as his guru, then why don't he ask his guru if he should accept disciples?

 

If he doesn't respect Kirtanananda Swami as worthy of that authority then why doesn't he accept re-initiation from someone he does respect?

 

This is the kind of thing that just makes ISKCON into a laughing stock of the Vaishnava world.

 

When there are senior sannyasis of Srila Prabhupada available to initiate devotees then why are oddball disciples of Kirtanananda Swami begging for the GBC to throw them a bone and give them the GBC rubber stamp of approval?

 

What a joke.

What a mess.

What a shame.

[suchandra 1]

 

Obviously, this kind of situation shows and proves that in ISKCON the GBC is over and above the gurus.

Otherwise, this "sannyasi" would be concerned about whether or not his "guru" Kirtanananda Swami wants him to accept disciples.

Usually, a disciple does not accept disciples as long as his own spiritual master is still present in the world and accepting disciples himself.

 

If the person actually accepts Kirtanananda Swami as his guru, then why don't he ask his guru if he should accept disciples?

 

If he doesn't respect Kirtanananda Swami as worthy of that authority then why doesn't he accept re-initiation from someone he does respect?

 

This is the kind of thing that just makes ISKCON into a laughing stock of the Vaishnava world.

 

When there are senior sannyasis of Srila Prabhupada available to initiate devotees then why are oddball disciples of Kirtanananda Swami begging for the GBC to throw them a bone and give them the GBC rubber stamp of approval?

 

What a joke.

What a mess.

What a shame.

If a devotee who considers to become a spiritual master and initiating his own disciples is asking this question, can I do this, what can be said?

Such a devotee should be in that situation that he is so successfully preaching and people stand in line to become his disciples that nobody would ask this question.

 

"It is amazing how he (Srila Prabhupada) could convince the world's toughest audience, bohemians, acidheads, potheads, and hippies, that he knew the way to God." Divinedigest

 

 

DIVINEDIGEST: SRILA PRABHUPADA BHAKTHI VEDANTHA SWAMY

Though Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was the author of chanting the Hare Krishna Mantra, it was Prabhupada Swamy who elaborated the Mantra and had taken this Mantra to all the corners of the world. Chaitanya himself spread the transcendental teachings of Sri Krishna to the Western world and Prabhupada followed up vigourously round the world. "HARE " is the form of addressing the energy and the names Rama and Krishna are forms of addressing the Lord Himself. The three words Hare Rama, Krishna are the transcendental seeds of the Mahamantra. The chanting is a spiritual call for the Lord and His energy to give protection to our soul.

Hare Krishna Mantra can be chanted by any man, in any social position, in any country and in any age for Krishna is The Supreme Lord of all people in all social positions, in all countries, in all ages. His Divine Grace, Prabhupada Swamy has the unique distinction for having spread the power of chanting Hare Krishna Mantra throughout the world, without encountering any enimity, opposition or persecution. It is amazing how he could convince the world's toughest audience, bohemians, acidheads, potheads, and hippies, that he knew the way to God.

The Founder Acharya of International Society of Krishna Consciousness (ISKON) , has several books to his credit .

We have compiled some of the best for you below

The Bhagavat Gita - by ISKON

Srimad Bhagavatam - by ISKON

A nectar of Devotion - by ISKON

Krishna, The Reservoir of Pleasure - by ISKON

 

In the Padma Purāṇa, the characteristics of the guru, the bona fide spiritual master, have been described:

 

mahā-bhāgavata-śreṣṭho brāhmaṇo vai gurur nṛṇām

sarveṣām eva lokānām asau pūjyo yathā hariḥ

mahā-kula-prasūto 'pi sarva-yajñeṣu dīkṣitaḥ

sahasra-śākhādhyāyī ca na guruḥ syād avaiṣṇavaḥ

 

The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class. The first-class devotee is the spiritual master for all kinds of people. It is said, gurur nṛṇām. The word nṛṇām means "of all human beings." The guru is not limited to a particular group. It is stated in the Upadeśāmṛta of Rūpa Gosvāmī that a guru is a gosvāmī, a controller of the senses and the mind. Such a guru can accept disciples from all over the world. Pṛthivīḿ sa śiṣyāt. This is the test of the guru.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

It is amazing how he could convince the world's toughest audience, bohemians, acidheads, potheads, and hippies, that he knew the way to God.

 

Is this line a joke?

 

It was the acid and the pot that let people think that the Bee Gee's "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078239/) was a good movie!!!

 

If anything, the drugs made people a *more* receptive audience by challenging their preconceived notions of reality.

 

I spoke with a devotee from Berkeley, who, in the late 60's had been enrolled in NYU Business School. He tried pot for the first time and within two weeks he'd quit school and joined the Hare Krishnas.

[suchandra 1]

 

Is this line a joke?

 

 

Well, may be you're right and the people of this website are themselves cut of this wood, "bohemians, acidheads, potheads, and hippies".

 

Srila Prabhupada, October 18, 1975: "Yes. They do not even know what knowledge is. To these fools and rascals, knowledge means sex. That is their knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means how to enjoy sex. How to take shelter of abortion‑child killing. And how to perfect their contraceptive method. The whole thing is on the basis of sex. That's all. They do not know anything except these things. They know that after sex, there is so much botheration. But they cannot give sex up. Therefore, they make all these arrangements: take contraceptives, or kill the child.

 

That means their whole so‑called civilization, their whole culture, is based on sex. That's all. But yan maithunadi grhamedhi sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha duhkham: "Sex is like the rubbing of two hands to relieve an itch. Those with no spiritual knowledge consider this itching the greatest happiness, although actually, from start to finish, the whole business is distress‑‑and it is most abominable." Is that pleasure? These supposedly advanced rascals think it is pleasure to unite the urine-passing parts. [Laughter.] And we have to believe this is pleasure‑a standard of pleasure utterly third‑class, fourth‑class. Yan maithunadi grhamedhi sukham hi tuccham. Very abominable. Tuccham: the Vedic literature says, "Sex is mostabominable." And yet these fools take it as the highest goal, and they make all sorts of elaborate arrangements for this abominable pleasure."

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Well, may be you're right and the people of this website are themselves cut of this wood, "bohemians, acidheads, potheads, and hippies".

 

Well, we Westerners are a tough audience, to be sure, whatever our brain chemistry may be at the time. We're conditioned to be materialistic, and that's the toughest thing to overcome.

 

Regarding sex, to be sure, the Western society is preoccupied with it to the exclusion of almost everything else.

 

However, from the song of Thakur Bhaktivinoda that Indulekha didi recently posted, we can infer that, to Bhaktivinoda, even making love to his wife was seen by him has honoring Krishna prasadam.

 

It's all about rasa (Divine Moods) and yukta-vairagya (proper adjustment and utilization), isn't it?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada, October 18, 1975: "Yes. They do not even know what knowledge is. To these fools and rascals, knowledge means sex. That is their knowledge. Advancement of knowledge means how to enjoy sex. How to take shelter of abortion‑child killing. And how to perfect their contraceptive method. The whole thing is on the basis of sex. That's all. They do not know anything except these things. They know that after sex, there is so much botheration. But they cannot give sex up. Therefore, they make all these arrangements: take contraceptives, or kill the child.

 

That means their whole so‑called civilization, their whole culture, is based on sex. That's all. But yan maithunadi grhamedhi sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha duhkham: "Sex is like the rubbing of two hands to relieve an itch. Those with no spiritual knowledge consider this itching the greatest happiness, although actually, from start to finish, the whole business is distress‑‑and it is most abominable." Is that pleasure? These supposedly advanced rascals think it is pleasure to unite the urine-passing parts. [Laughter.] And we have to believe this is pleasure‑a standard of pleasure utterly third‑class, fourth‑class. Yan maithunadi grhamedhi sukham hi tuccham. Very abominable. Tuccham: the Vedic literature says, "Sex is mostabominable." And yet these fools take it as the highest goal, and they make all sorts of elaborate arrangements for this abominable pleasure."