More Thoughtful Answers?

suchandra · August 31, 2007

Krishna-ksetra Dasa, Aug 31, 2007: “When I joined ISKCON, in Germany, the questions were fairly simple: whether to eat seconds or thirds of dessert, which town to go to for chanting, and so on. The answers to some of our philosophical questions, though, were sometimes stereotyped, and [iSKCON’s founder] Srila Prabhupada taught us that Krishna consciousness is not stereotyped. So I began to think that we needed to go deeper into our tradition to secure more thoughtful answers to the questions we asked.”

ISKCON Studies Institute Launches Conference

By Lal Krishna dasa
The ISKCON Studies Institute held its first annual ISKCON Studies Conference at Prabhupadadesh, in northern Italy, on 27-30 July. The Conference, which brought together some of ISKCON’s best thinkers, led to the ISKCON Studies Institute becoming one of the few initiatives to be recognised and approved by ISKCON’s Ministry of Educational Development.

The theme of the Conference was “ISKCON and Interpretation: Context, History, Theory, Practice”. The aim of the Conference was to create a space where ISKCON thinkers can come together and engage in open, intelligent discussion in a devotional atmosphere. According to one of the organisers, Krishna-ksetra Dasa: “When I joined ISKCON, in Germany, the questions were fairly simple: whether to eat seconds or thirds of dessert, which town to go to for chanting, and so on. The answers to some of our philosophical questions, though, were sometimes stereotyped, and [iSKCON’s founder] Srila Prabhupada taught us that Krishna consciousness is not stereotyped. So I began to think that we needed to go deeper into our tradition to secure more thoughtful answers to the questions we asked.”

Presenters at the conference included Braja Bihari Dasa, Federico Squarcini, Jayadvaita Swami, Krishna Ksetra Dasa, Kumari Priya Dasi, Pranava Dasa, Ravindra Svarupa Dasa, Radhika Ramana Dasa, Rembert Lutjeharms, and Sesa Dasa. The special guest speaker was Massimo Introvigne, the founder and managing director of the Centre for Studies on New Religions, an international network of scholars.

The Conference is a direct development from the groundbreaking ISKCON Communications Meetings (ICELT), which began in 1993 and are responsible for fostering initiatives including the Bhaktivedanta College at Radhadesh, the ISKCON Communications Journal, and ISKCON’s Child Protection Office. The ISKCON Studies Institute is also a product of these meetings. As well as holding the ISKCON Studies Conference, it is publishing the ISKCON Studies Journal (a relaunched ISKCON Communications Journal) and has a large ISKCON Archive. The Institute’s declared aims are to develop the field of ISKCON studies and related areas of interest; develop forums for academic exchange; and promote relevant research and facilitate publishing about ISKCON in various disciplines.

Audio recordings of the Conference sessions are being made available at http://podserve.biggu.com/podcasts/show/iskcon-studies and a copy of the programme can be downloaded from http://www.iskcon.com/is_programme.pdf

These are important points, actually I was just caught up when reading HG Sri Sriman Krishna Ksetra Prabhu's wisdom, to think, whether to eat seconds or thirds of dessert, it's a shame I know.

Time to become more thoughtful - it's so very true!

Any suggestions?

Translation: “Then Lord Krishna blew His conchshell named Pancajanya; Arjuna blew his, the Devadatta; and Bhima, the voracious eater and performer of Herculean tasks, blew his terrific conchshell named Paundram.”

Prabhupada: So Vrikodara, Bhimasena, is advertised as voracious eater. But he can perform Herculean task also. Just like the elephant, it eats voraciously, but it gives service also. Similarly if we simply eat voraciously and we cannot give any service that is not good. We

must eat sumptuously and give service also. In Bengali it is said that pete keli pithe soy. If one is given sufficient food in the belly, he can carry more burden on the back. So Bhima-karma, his activities were very Herculean, very, very, difficult tasks he performed.

Prabhupada, Bhagavad-gītā 1.15 London, July 15, 1973

theist · September 1, 2007

These are important points, actually I was just caught up when reading HG Sri Sriman Krishna Ksetra Prabhu's wisdom, to think, whether to eat seconds or thirds of dessert, it's a shame I know.
Time to become more thoughtful - it's so very true!

Any suggestions?

Well my thought is when in doubt go for thirds. If you can't finish it then save for later. That way you are sure not to deprive yourself of lucious desserts.

On being more thoughtful philosphically that will be there automatically as we advance. More thoughtfully answer will follow more thoughtful questions. More questions on the nature of Krsna will naturally arise. No dirth of information to draw from. The important thing is that questions be grounded in Srila Prabhupada's (or other bone fide teachers) books. Philosphical speculation is good but not just for the speculations sake. Questioning (wondering, pondering) endlessly without coming to the conclusive truth is not the Krsna conscious path and is only time wasting mental sense gratification.

suchandra · September 1, 2007

Well my thought is when in doubt go for thirds. If you can't finish it then save for later. That way you are sure not to deprive yourself of lucious desserts.

On being more thoughtful philosphically that will be there automatically as we advance. More thoughtfully answer will follow more thoughtful questions. More questions on the nature of Krsna will naturally arise. No dirth of information to draw from. The important thing is that questions be grounded in Srila Prabhupada's (or other bone fide teachers) books. Philosphical speculation is good but not just for the speculations sake. Questioning (wondering, pondering) endlessly without coming to the conclusive truth is not the Krsna conscious path and is only time wasting mental sense gratification.

For me and quite some of my godbrothers it became increasingly and inescapably obvious that the movement was simply not fulfilling its own stated primary goal of presenting more thoughtful answers when it comes to create "pure devotees" -- who would skillfully and successfully guide serious practitioners to those sublime states of spiritual consciousness elaborately described in the Nectar of Devotion and reiterated in the daily morning lectures.

One does, of course, encounter devotees who seem peaceful, content, full of sincere purpose and conviction, high-spirited, effulgent, enthusiastic, and so on. And it is true that most devotees have experienced at one time or another, uplifting feelings from chanting Hare Krishna, seeing the beautiful decorated Deities or during harinam on Oxford Street, London.

But what of the more developed and sustained spiritual states described by such terms as "bhava" and "prema"? What of the love of Krishna that flows from the depths of one's being, overwhelms the mind and heart, and utterly transforms one into a holy person whose very presence inspires genuine sanctity in others? Is ISKCON actually producing such manifestly Krishna conscious persons - this was questioned repeatedly.

To account for this embarrassing lack of pure devotees in ISKCON, one might feel tempted to enact an ISKCON version of "The Emperor's New Clothes": do the best one can to convince oneself and others that certain high-profile leaders are, indeed, pure devotees, and proclaim that those who don't acknowledge their status are either not yet advanced enough for such spiritual discernment or are "envious fools." Or, alternatively, redefine the term "pure devotee" in such a broad, generous manner as to include the greatest number of devotees possible. Somehow this didnt work in the length of time and the facade seemed to crumble intermittently.

In order to compensate this missing genuine spiritual mysticism all kind of changes occured and obviously still go on.....

theist · September 1, 2007

Yeah such states of highly developed love and devotional sentiments as you speak of are rare in this world. Not just in Iskcon but all other vaisnava sangas I would expect.

One thing for sure is we will never find bhava in an organization, we will only find it in ourselves. And then only when we really want to love Krsna. Which brings out the point that there is no need to fault Iskcon for what we ourselves lack. Vaisnavism is personal between each soul and Krsna. It seems the wise don't wait for the group to give themselves over to love for God. They just do it.

So if we are stuck on the outside looking in then we must ask ourselves what holds us back? Fear? faithlessness? These are the practical problems that most of us need to deal with before we enter in to higher more intimate states of Krsna consciousness.

IMO of course.

suchandra · September 1, 2007

Yeah such states of highly developed love and devotional sentiments as you speak of are rare in this world. Not just in Iskcon but all other vaisnava sangas I would expect.

Thanks Theist Prabhu, this is of course true, it is rare. Srila Narayana Maharaja at a conversation in Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb.12, 2002, puts the rareness of highly developed love and devotional sentiments like that: "Therefore, in his service to Radhika, for rati-keli-siddhyai, a guru cannot serve in his male form. Srila Swami Maharaja and my Gurudeva are both serving there in their female forms as gopis. In that realm my Gurudeva is Vinoda Manjari, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Thakura is Nayana Manjari, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is Kamala Manjari, Srila Jiva Gosvami is Vilasa Manjari, Srila Rupa Gosvami is Rupa Manjari, and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is Rati Manjari. These manjaris can serve Radha-Krishna Conjugal."

Sriman Dhrstadyumna dasa: "And our Srila Prabhupada?"

Srila Narayana Maharaja: "If you fully surrender, by body, mind, words and ego, then I may tell you. Otherwise, I will not. I know who he is, but you do not know. None of the ISKCON leaders know. Your Prabhupada has cheated them all, in the sense that he has not revealed himself to them at all.''

Before Srila Narayana Maharaja made that statement above he tells us the manjari name of his guru and the manjari names of many other gurus. Then, pointing out the rareness of pure bhakti, he wants complete and full surrender before he tells us Srila Prabhupada's manjari name. This is according Srila Narayana Maharaja even not known to the present ISKCON leaders - indeed, this state states of highly developed love and devotional sentiments as you say is rare to obtain!

Narayana Maharaja Salt Spring Island, B.C. Canada May 2001 (Morning class):... If anyone does not have belief in my statements, he can acquire and hear the cassette. At that time he spoke in Bengali so that others would not understand. If he were to say that all his disciples were ignorant, that they did not know very much, and that they were imperfect, they may have become upset. For this reason he spoke so many things in Bengali. He told me, 'I brought them, but I could not teach them in full.' If he had told them everything, and if they were so knowledgeable and expert, why have so many of the senior devotees, even those in the renounced order, fallen down? Where are they now? Where they are now is not ISKCON. They were not ISKCON, they are not ISKCON, and they will not be ISKCON. …If there is no need for Prabhupada's disciples to continue hearing from a bona fide guru, then why are they falling? Why? I know more than you, much more than you."

Narayana Maharaja says, that pure devotional service is so rare that all those who served in ISKCON and then "fell down" and left ISKCON, that those were and will be excluded for ever.

In sum you're so right! Highly developed love and devotional sentiments - it's rare!