Bhaktivinoda Thakur teaches...

[theist 1]

 

"The student is to read the facts with a view to create, and not with the object of fruitless retention. Students, like satellites, should reflect whatever light they receive from authors and not imprision the facts and thoughts just as the Magistrate imprision the convicts in the jail! Thought is progressive. The author's thought must have progress in the reader in the shape of correction or development." -The Bhagavat Speech

 

The last line really grabs me at the moment. "The author's thought must have progress in the reader in the shape of correction or development."

I believe this is how we are to read Srimad Bhagavatam and the Bhaktivedanta purports. We take in what we read as a living thing that does it's work from within us to correct what needs to be corrected and to guide us in the proper line of development. The goal being the total transformation of the consciousness.

There is so much in these three sentences of Bhativinoda's.

 

 

[theist 1]

 

Students, like satellites, should reflect whatever light they receive from authors and not imprision the facts and thoughts just as the Magistrate imprision the convicts in the jail!

 

 

This is a picture of simple dust reflecting light. Devotees consider themselves like dust or lower but see how beautiful they become simply by reflecting the Krsna conscious light gleaned from reading the teachings of the past authors.

 

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

It's natural to want to be in on a secret that nobody else knows.

 

It's also natural to want to shine one's own light out into the darkness.

 

If we really care for our brothers and sisters, though, won't we generously share any secrets to which we are privy? Our own capacity to shine is so limited, but there is so much wonderful light which we may reflect into the eyes of our brethren!

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur ki jai!!!

 

The example of Ramanuja comes to mind.

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/sri_guru/sri_guru_7.html

 

 

Ramanuja's Secret Mantra

There is another example of this spirit of risk, in Ramanuja's case. There was an alwar, a South Indian guru who had the highest type of mantra. Ramanuja wanted that mantra from him. The alwar told Ramanuja, "If you don't disclose this mantra to anyone, then I shall reveal it to you." Ramanuja agreed, and with this pledge, Ramanuja approached him and received the mantra. It had already been announced to the public that Ramanuja was receiving that mantra, and so many people were standing outside waiting. They had heard that Ramanuja had accepted this condition and received the mantra from that guru. As soon as Ramanuja came out, the mob that was waiting there impatiently began asking him, "What kind of mantra has he given you? What is the mantra? Is it of the highest order that will deliver us all?"

"Yes "

"Then what is it?"

"This is the mantra. "

He gave it out, and his guru chastised him. "What have you done? Don't you know what is the result?"

"Yes, I know: eternal hell, but your mantra cannot but be fruitful, so they will be saved, although I may go to hell." If you can take this sort of risk, your guru will bless you, and you cannot be doomed. This sort of risk should be taken by the disciple and only on the force, on the basis of that spiritual inspiration. If he does so, he can never be doomed. The eye of the Lord is there. God is there. Guru is there. He cannot but be saved. They cannot leave him in danger and relish thinking, "The person who is carrying out our orders is going to hell." Can they tolerate such a thing? Are our guardians living or are they dead?

We must be so much selfless that we can think, "I may go to hell, but I must carry out my guru's order. So, through me, the work may go on. This sort of conviction in the process, in the mantra, gives us the strength to carry out the work of acarya. If I think, "This medicine is helping me; I am in the curing process, and this medicine is helping me," then, if I see a similar case, I may hand the medicine over to him.

Jiva Goswaml says jnana sathya vittha sathya. If I have some money and another person is suffering with no money, if I keep tight my money, and he lies fasting without food, then I'll be responsible for his suffering. So, if I have some knowledge, if I can help my neighbor, but don't do that, I'll be responsible. By not helping him, I commit an offense against society.

Once I asked one doctor, "Do you know about disease perfectly? Then why do you venture to treat a patient? You have meager knowledge. You don't know his body fully. You treat him, and you are wrong." The doctor submitted to me. But an answer came in my mind that if we require every doctor to perfectly know everything about disease, then the whole method of treatment will vanish. Because they are all half-knowing and there is not anyone to be found in full knowledge, should this curing process be abolished? It is not possible. So in the case of all culture, one should help others in good faith.

In good faith, with whatever knowledge we have, we must sincerely help others. In that spirit one may take up the work of acarya, otherwise he will be blamed. But we must be careful that whenever a guru of superior quality is there, we must help others to accept him. We must not be a trespasser. It is also mentioned in the Hari Bhakti Vilasa that when a greater person is available, those of a lower type should not venture to make disciples. Suppose a farmer has fertile land and two kinds of seed. The good seed should be planted first. If the better seed is not available, then ordinary seeds may be sown. For the sake of the harvest, the better seed should be given the first chance. If we are detached, if we are pure in heart, and if we are selfless, the better seed should always be sown first. The lower kind of seed should be withdrawn. So, when a higher type of guru is available to any circle, the lower type of guru should not interfere.

 

 

 

 

This is a picture of simple dust reflecting light. Devotees consider themselves like dust or lower but see how beautiful they become simply by reflecting the Krsna conscious light gleaned from reading the teachings of the past authors.

 

[Guruvani 0]

 

The last line really grabs me at the moment. "The author's thought must have progress in the reader in the shape of correction or development."

I believe this is how we are to read Srimad Bhagavatam and the Bhaktivedanta purports. We take in what we read as a living thing that does it's work from within us to correct what needs to be corrected and to guide us in the proper line of development. The goal being the total transformation of the consciousness.

There is so much in these three sentences of Bhativinoda's.

 

 

 

Yet, we have to understand that "correction and development" is something that we should leave to the self-realized Maha-Bhagavats like Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Prabhupada.

 

If neophytes attempt "correction and development" it will almost assuredly result in butchering the sacred and reducing it down to the mundane.

[theist 1]

 

It's natural to want to be in on a secret that nobody else knows.

 

It's also natural to want to shine one's own light out into the darkness.

 

If we really care for our brothers and sisters, though, won't we generously share any secrets to which we are privy? Our own capacity to shine is so limited, but there is so much wonderful light which we may reflect into the eyes of our brethren!

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur ki jai!!!

 

The example of Ramanuja comes to mind.

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/sri_guru/sri_guru_7.html

 

 

Nice example from Ramanuja. It is natural for us to shine. This is the truth of us in our pure state and there is no thought of will I shine or should I trap it within.

 

Just like the sun shines. It is not showing off but without shining there is no meaning to being the sun. Krsna made us like that, although we are just photons the principle is the same.

 

But now we are in an unnatural state, covered and weakened, unsure of ourselves or what to do.

 

We read this from a past author.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> "The student is to read the facts with a view to create, and not with the object of fruitless retention. Students, like satellites, should reflect whatever light they receive from authors and not imprision the facts and thoughts just as the Magistrate imprision the convicts in the jail! Thought is progressive. The author's thought must have progress in the reader in the shape of correction or development." -The Bhagavat Speech </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

As STUDENTS then it behooves us to allow this advice itself work it's creative power within us. This is in no means a call to mental speculation but rather philosophical contemplation as well as self contemplation to understand how the truth of what we read fits into our lives.

[theist 1]

 

"Thought is progressive."

On one hand were are wanting to absorb and spread eternal unchanging truths. So how can thoughts of such truth be progressive without being speculative.

 

Truth of God is God so truth is also unlimted, and relative to our experience of it, ever deepening while remaining Absolute. Absolute relativity. Not one or the other but both simultaneously.

 

Dynamic not stagnent.

 

Always something new to learn and according to the world, society and culture we find ourselves in always new ways to nuance and present that truth to make it acceptable to the audience.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Always something new to learn and according to the world, society and culture we find ourselves in always new ways to nuance and present that truth to make it acceptable to the audience.

It's all about the nuance, isn't it?

 

A senior Vaishnava I know, who is worthy of all worship, has a strong tendency to preach. At times, I noted, he would close his eyes and ramble on about wonderful things.

 

However, with eyes closed, he has no feedback as to whether his audience is following him or not--whether he is "getting through".

 

By watching the face of someone with whom we are speaking, we can see if they are excited, tolerant, bored, or confused, and modify our approach accordingly. If somebody cannot understand a particular concept, perhaps it can be made clear by use of an analogy or other rhetorical device.

 

This reciprocal relationship is the difference between associating with the scriptures and associating with the sadhu.

[theist 1]

 

It's all about the nuance, isn't it?

 

A senior Vaishnava I know, who is worthy of all worship, has a strong tendency to preach. At times, I noted, he would close his eyes and ramble on about wonderful things.

 

However, with eyes closed, he has no feedback as to whether his audience is following him or not--whether he is "getting through".

 

By watching the face of someone with whom we are speaking, we can see if they are excited, tolerant, bored, or confused, and modify our approach accordingly. If somebody cannot understand a particular concept, perhaps it can be made clear by use of an analogy or other rhetorical device.

 

This reciprocal relationship is the difference between associating with the scriptures and associating with the sadhu.

 

Good point. Of course there is The Voice behind the scriptures and Who speaks through the scriptures but at first we have no awareness of this.

 

Souls are won by souls that speak to other souls the divine truth in such a way as will be most readily understandable and acceptable and not just speaking to the wind. Soul to soul means personal connection. A brahmana should be able to assess the dominant mode of nature will it's variaitons that is dominant in the person he is speaking to and adjuct accordingly.

 

A deep sea fisherman who has never gone to school will hardly appreciate Behe's arguments for Intelligent Design any more than I do, but he will readily have a feel for Krsna's words, "Of bodies of water I am the ocean." That thought will leave a solid spiritual sanskara and the fisherman will be benefited.

[Avinash 0]

 

Yet, we have to understand that "correction and development" is something that we should leave to the self-realized Maha-Bhagavats like Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Prabhupada.

 

If neophytes attempt "correction and development" it will almost assuredly result in butchering the sacred and reducing it down to the mundane.

I think you are talking about making so called "corrections" in sacred books e.g. editing Prabhupada's books. Right?

But Bhaktivinod Thakur's message that Theist has quited as has some other meaning of "correction and development". Here correction means correction in our own perspective. Development means our spiritual development. You are talking about "correction and development" of sacred writings. But Bhaktivinod's Thakur is talking about correction and development of reader.

I guess Theist also means what I mean. But waiting for his clarification.

[theist 1]

Nicely said Avinash ji.

[Guruvani 0]

 

I think you are talking about making so called "corrections" in sacred books e.g. editing Prabhupada's books. Right?

But Bhaktivinod Thakur's message that Theist has quited as has some other meaning of "correction and development". Here correction means correction in our own perspective. Development means our spiritual development. You are talking about "correction and development" of sacred writings. But Bhaktivinod's Thakur is talking about correction and development of reader.

I guess Theist also means what I mean. But waiting for his clarification.

I think you don't understand. it's quite obvious what Bhaktivinode is saying:

 

 

"The student is to read the facts with a view to create, and not with the object of fruitless retention. Students, like satellites, should reflect whatever light they receive from authors and not imprision the facts and thoughts just as the Magistrate imprision the convicts in the jail! Thought is progressive. The author's thought must have progress in the reader in the shape of correction or development." -The Bhagavat Speech

 

If we get past that one paragraph in context to the paragraphs after that one in the book, it is quite obvious that Bhaktivinode is not speaking in the same line as you are thinking.

 

 

"Begin anew," says the critic, because the old masonry does not answer at present. Let the old author be buried because his time is gone. These are shallow expressions. Progress certainly is the law of nature and there must be corrections and developments with the progress of time. But progress means going further or rising higher. Now, if we are to follow our foolish critic, we are to go back to our former terminus and make a new race, and when — we have run half the race another critic of his stamp will cry out: "Begin anew, because the wrong road has been taken!" In this way our stupid critics will never allow us to go over the whole road and see what is in the other terminus. Thus the shallow critic and the fruitless reader are the two greatest enemies of progress. We must shun them.

The true critic, on the other hand, advises us to preserve what we have already obtained, and to adjust our race from that point where we have arrived in the heat of our progress. He will never advise us to go back to the point whence we started, as he fully knows that in that case there will be a fruitless loss of our valuable time and labor. He will direct the adjustment of the angle of the race at the point where we are. This is also the characteristic of the useful student.

He will read an old author and will find out his exact position in the progress of thought. He will never propose to burn the book on the ground that it contains thoughts which are useless. No thought is useless. Thoughts are means by which, we attain our objects. The reader who denounces a bad thought, does not know that a bad road is even capable of improvement and conversion into a good one.

 

[Guruvani 0]

Bhaktivinode:

 

 

The reader who denounces a bad thought, does not know that a bad road is even capable of improvement and conversion into a good one.

 

Bhaktivinode is talking about correction and development of lower thoughts into higher thoughts and making bad roads into good roads.

 

I don't see that he is talking about development or improvement of the reader but in the reader developing and improving lesser thought into a path leading to higher thought.

[Guruvani 0]

However, I do concede that internal correction and development of the readers of spiritual books is what the process is all about, yet I do not see that in this specific reference that Bhaktivinode is referring to internal correction and development but of developing a bad road into a good road that can be travelled to the ultimate goal.

[Vigraha 0]

 

On one hand were are wanting to absorb and spread eternal unchanging truths. So how can thoughts of such truth be progressive without being speculative.

 

Truth of God is God so truth is also unlimted, and relative to our experience of it, ever deepening while remaining Absolute. Absolute relativity. Not one or the other but both simultaneously.

 

Dynamic not stagnent.

 

Always something new to learn and according to the world, society and culture we find ourselves in always new ways to nuance and present that truth to make it acceptable to the audience.

 

Dynamic not stagnent, Yes very important, I have just read 'Beyond birth and death' again and my realizations are always expanding, understanding things I previously never understood.

 

 

As Hari Sauri prabhu said 'One must have personal realizations of Srila Prabhupadas books and not just PH.d 'academic credentials'.

 

 

In other words we must become more than just 'parrots' quoting so many slokas and Krishna katha. We must have personal realizations of what Srila Prabhupada has given us and then write them down as Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to do.

 

“Perfect this Krishna consciousness; try to understand the philosophy behind it. It is a science, not a bluff. We can speak from any angle of vision. Krishna consciousness is the great necessity of human society. Learn it and appreciate it, comprehend it and assimilate it—and teach it. It is very simple.”

“Unless you fully assimilate, understand, you cannot describe it. So two things... Simply reading will not help us.” Instead of effortless sentiment and artificial repetition, Srila Prabhupada encourages us to assimilate, understand and enquire:

“So we request simply people that you accept this authoritative knowledge and try to assimilate it by your intelligence. It is not that you stop your argument and intelligence, simply blindly accept something. No. We are human beings, we have got intelligence. We are not animals that we shall be forced to accept something. No. Tad viddhi pripātena paripraśnena sevayā [bg. 4.34].”

.