Devotion Contaminated by Reason?

[theist 1]

From pure devotion to the Moon thing yet again.

[Guruvani 0]

 

From pure devotion to the Moon thing yet again.

 

the "MOON THING" is in the Bhagavat.

Deal with it.

It is not going away.

[theist 1]

Hell is in the Bhagavat also Moonman.

[Guest guest]

 

We don't like to follow this demoniac version of the truth

 

demoniac?

 

LOL

[Guruvani 0]

 

Hell is in the Bhagavat also Moonman.

 

Mahaprabhu referred to these Hells.

 

Now somebody found one sentence by Bhaktivinode that says something and now everybody is saying that the Hells in the Bhagavata aren't real?

 

Bhaktivinode had particular audience in mind when he wrote those things.

He said many things to try and goad people like himself into accepting the Bhagavatam.

Bhaktivinode hated the Bhagavatam and the Vaishnavas for the first part of his life. So, his preaching was geared towards reaching people like himself that couldn't accept the Bhagavatam face value.

 

So, he said what he felt he had to say to get these people to accept the Bhagavatam. But, Bhaktivinode cannot do away with the Hells that are quite explicitly described in the Bhagavatam.

 

There are Hells in Buddhist philosophy as well and Hells in Christian and Muslim philosophy. So, all you sinners out there better get it in your head that Hell is real. All the religions of the world describe Hell.

 

Now, some idiot finds a sentence by Bhaktivinode and thinks he can erase Hell from the Vaishnava philosophy.

 

Then why did Mahaprabhu tell Rupa and Sanatan that he had saved them from Kumbhipaka? (a hell in the Bhagavatam for meat-eaters)

[theist 1]

Sorry I addressed you directly. I forgot what a quagmire that always becomes.

 

I never referrenced hell being real or unreal. You said the moon was in the Bhagavat and I needed to get used to it. I retorted in an attempt to make a point with a little humor that hell was also a subject of the Bhagavat. The point being that neither are the subject of this thread according to the thread title.

 

I apologize. Please ignore me in the future.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Sorry I addressed you directly. I forgot what a quagmire that always becomes.

 

I never referrenced hell being real or unreal. You said the moon was in the Bhagavat and I needed to get used to it. I retorted in an attempt to make a point with a little humor that hell was also a subject of the Bhagavat. The point being that neither are the subject of this thread according to the thread title.

 

I apologize. Please ignore me in the future.

Well, you know, I think I know who popularized this idea that Bhaktivinode Thakur denounced the Hells described in the Bhagavatam.

 

It was about 1981 the first time I heard that.

I was at the San Jose Temple serving under Bhakti Sudhir Maharaja.

He in fact was the first person to publish "The Bhagavat" a small book of Bhaktivinode, for distribution throughout the western world.

 

Sudhir Maharaja of course became familiar with that book in the process of publishing it.

He is the first person I ever heard preaching about that couple of sentences in that little book of Bhaktivinode that seemed to be denouncing the Hells in the Bhagavatam as being something that was added by some rulers or bygone Kings who wanted to scare the population into being religious people.

 

However, it we open that can of worms to say that the Bhagavatam has been tampered with in that way, then we open up the doorway for suspicion of the whole book.

 

If we accept that some ancient King tampered with the Bhagavatam and what we have today is a tampered version of the Bhagavatam, then the whole Bhagavatam becomes suspect.

 

I personally disagree with the idea of casting suspicion on certain portions of the Bhagavatam. I would even have to say that I depart with Srila Bhaktivinode on this matter, as Srila Prabhupada never ever said anything like that.

 

I also think that Bhaktivinode wrote in that way with the idea to reach some of his fellow countrymen that like him had grown up with a bad prejudice against the Bhagavatam and the Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

 

I don't accept that what Bhaktivinode said in that regard has to be accepted as absolute. It was a preaching device aimed at a certain audience. Srila Prabhupada never presented Srimad Bhagavatam in that light. He wanted his audience to accept these Hells literally.

 

So, that is the way we accept it, despite anything that Bhaktivinode Thakur might have written to the contrary.

 

Even if the Hells are just figurative descriptions of different forms of suffering and punishment that sinful people are subjected to as a reaction to their sinful deeds, Srila Prabhupada didn't emphasize that figurative aspect. So, in keeping with his way of presentation, I think the allegorical way of understanding these hells should not be promoted to western readers.

 

The allorgical aspect becomes understood by the proper students at the proper time if they reach that level of realization. It's not the way Srila Prabhupada presented it. A sincere student of the Bhagavatam will have to realize it himself. He should not be artificially trained to think in a way that is beyond his actual level of realization.

[theist 1]

But Guruvani the point is the topic that started this thread has yet to be discussed. I am disappointed because it is such an important consideration and would love to hear others input on it.

 

I strongly believe that spiritually directed reason (wisdom) is an important step on the road to that devotion that is transcendental to reason itself.

[Guest guest]

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda-deva Goswami Maharaja paraphrasing Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar-deva Goswami Maharaja:

tesam evanukampartham aham ajnana-jam tamah

nashayami atma-bhavastho jnana-dipena bhasvata

The general interpretation is always given for this verse:

"Out of compassion for them, I, situated within their hearts, dispel the darkness of ignorance with the radiance of knowledge."

But if we appreciate pure, noncalculative devotion (jnana-sunya bhakti), the Lord's statement here may again appear redundant and inconsistent. When those high devotees are already admitted to be performing continuous and unadulterated service, and even above that, they are situated in the plane of pure love, spontaneous and automatic (raga-marga), how can it be harmonized that the Lord will now in the last stage destroy their ignorance which is born from misunderstanding, by giving them knowledge? Jnana is only a cover - a futile, finite conception of the Infinite Absolute. When they have achieved devotion devoid of the covering of knowledge, how will they again have to return to that knowledge? In his commentary, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur has mentioned that this knowledge is extraordinary (vilaksanam), but he did not enter into specific detail. To clarify this point, we have given the following explanation:

Lamentation and delusion are generally known to be symptoms of the mode of ignorance. In jnana-sunya bhakti, the elevated devotees who take Krishna not as the Supreme God, but as a friend, son, husband, or lover, will come to experience lamentation and delusion, but this is only an outward appearance of ignorance. In fact, it is the pain of divine separation. They lament, "Where have You gone?"

In this verse, the Lord's statement, tesam evanukampartham generally means "Fortunately for them," or, "To favor them." But it may also be interpreted, "I want their favor. I aspire for the favor of those devotees of the highest order. "

The Lord also says in the Srimad Bhagavatam :

mayi bhaktir hi bhutanam, amrtatvaya kalpate

distya yad asin mat-sneho, bhavatinam mad-apanah

"Devotion to Me is the only means for the living beings to attain eternal life. O Gopis, by your fortune, your love and affection for Me is the only reason for your getting My association."

[krsna 3]

"Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee bhagavat or the book bhagavat one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But, actually, these are facts . . ."</I>

 

 

 

<BIG>Srimad-Bhagavatam, 1.2.18, purport</BIG>

<BIG></BIG>

<BIG></BIG>

 

<BIG>" . . . read and study my books deeply, and, in this way, be enthusiastic about going back to Godhead in this life."</BIG></B></I>

 

 

<BIG>Letter (75-5-50/May 22, 1975)</BIG>

 

[Guruvani 0]

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda-deva Goswami Maharaja paraphrasing Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar-deva Goswami Maharaja:

tesam evanukampartham aham ajnana-jam tamah

nashayami atma-bhavastho jnana-dipena bhasvata

The general interpretation is always given for this verse:

"Out of compassion for them, I, situated within their hearts, dispel the darkness of ignorance with the radiance of knowledge."

But if we appreciate pure, noncalculative devotion (jnana-sunya bhakti), the Lord's statement here may again appear redundant and inconsistent. When those high devotees are already admitted to be performing continuous and unadulterated service, and even above that, they are situated in the plane of pure love, spontaneous and automatic (raga-marga), how can it be harmonized that the Lord will now in the last stage destroy their ignorance which is born from misunderstanding, by giving them knowledge? Jnana is only a cover - a futile, finite conception of the Infinite Absolute. When they have achieved devotion devoid of the covering of knowledge, how will they again have to return to that knowledge? In his commentary, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur has mentioned that this knowledge is extraordinary (vilaksanam), but he did not enter into specific detail. To clarify this point, we have given the following explanation:

Lamentation and delusion are generally known to be symptoms of the mode of ignorance. In jnana-sunya bhakti, the elevated devotees who take Krishna not as the Supreme God, but as a friend, son, husband, or lover, will come to experience lamentation and delusion, but this is only an outward appearance of ignorance. In fact, it is the pain of divine separation. They lament, "Where have You gone?"

In this verse, the Lord's statement, tesam evanukampartham generally means "Fortunately for them," or, "To favor them." But it may also be interpreted, "I want their favor. I aspire for the favor of those devotees of the highest order. "

The Lord also says in the Srimad Bhagavatam :

mayi bhaktir hi bhutanam, amrtatvaya kalpate

distya yad asin mat-sneho, bhavatinam mad-apanah

"Devotion to Me is the only means for the living beings to attain eternal life. O Gopis, by your fortune, your love and affection for Me is the only reason for your getting My association."

 

The Lord says in that verse that in the heart of those hearts wherein there is "the darkness of ignorance" he dispels that darkness with the shining lamp of knowledge.

So, Sridhar Maharaja is objecting to this concept that the devotee will be blessed with "jnana" which is generally taken to be the impersonal brahman realization. Especially, he is objecting to the idea that the pure devotees will be blessed with jnana.

So, this verse presents a challenge. How can we understand what Krishna is saying here about dispelling darkness with knowledge?

 

Well, we have to go back a couple of verses and get a bigger picture of the situation.

In the previous verse, Lord Krishna refers to his devotees who are acting in buddhi-yoga. When one does some work in this world with love, offering the fruits to Lord Krishna then that person is performing buddhi-yoga.

So, Lord Krishna is specifically referring here to those devotees who are performing buddhi-yoga.

 

Srila Prabhupada writes;

 

A person may have a bona fide spiritual master and may be attached to a spiritual organization, but still, if he is not intelligent enough to make progress, then Kṛṣṇa from within gives him instructions so that he may ultimately come to Him without difficulty.

 

Then also:

 

Sometimes philosophers criticize the devotees because they think that most of the devotees are in the darkness of ignorance and are philosophically naive sentimentalists. Actually that is not the fact. There are very, very learned scholars who have put forward the philosophy of devotion. But even if a devotee does not take advantage of their literatures or of his spiritual master, if he is sincere in his devotional service he is helped by Kṛṣṇa Himself within his heart.

 

So, the jnana that Lord Krishna is referring to is the knowledge of this pure devotees. That is different than the knowledge of the Vedantists.

 

Srila Prabhupada sums up this knowledge of the devotee:

 

 

The pure devotee does not have to worry about the material necessities of life; he need not be anxious, because when he removes the darkness from his heart, everything is provided automatically by the Supreme Lord, who is pleased by the loving devotional service of the devotee. This is the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā.

[Guest guest]

Read this part again:

 

But if we appreciate pure, noncalculative devotion (jnana-sunya bhakti), the Lord's statement here may again appear redundant and inconsistent. When those high devotees are already admitted to be performing continuous and unadulterated service, and even above that, they are situated in the plane of pure love, spontaneous and automatic (raga-marga), how can it be harmonized that the Lord will now in the last stage destroy their ignorance which is born from misunderstanding, by giving them knowledge? Jnana is only a cover - a futile, finite conception of the Infinite Absolute. When they have achieved devotion devoid of the covering of knowledge, how will they again have to return to that knowledge? In his commentary, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur has mentioned that this knowledge is extraordinary (vilaksanam), but he did not enter into specific detail. To clarify this point, we have given the following explanation...

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda-deva Goswami Maharaja paraphrasing Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar-deva Goswami Maharaja:

tesam evanukampartham aham ajnana-jam tamah

nashayami atma-bhavastho jnana-dipena bhasvata

The general interpretation is always given for this verse:

"Out of compassion for them, I, situated within their hearts, dispel the darkness of ignorance with the radiance of knowledge."

But if we appreciate pure, noncalculative devotion (jnana-sunya bhakti), the Lord's statement here may again appear redundant and inconsistent. When those high devotees are already admitted to be performing continuous and unadulterated service, and even above that, they are situated in the plane of pure love, spontaneous and automatic (raga-marga), how can it be harmonized that the Lord will now in the last stage destroy their ignorance which is born from misunderstanding, by giving them knowledge? Jnana is only a cover - a futile, finite conception of the Infinite Absolute. When they have achieved devotion devoid of the covering of knowledge, how will they again have to return to that knowledge? In his commentary, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur has mentioned that this knowledge is extraordinary (vilaksanam), but he did not enter into specific detail. To clarify this point, we have given the following explanation:

Lamentation and delusion are generally known to be symptoms of the mode of ignorance. In jnana-sunya bhakti, the elevated devotees who take Krishna not as the Supreme God, but as a friend, son, husband, or lover, will come to experience lamentation and delusion, but this is only an outward appearance of ignorance. In fact, it is the pain of divine separation. They lament, "Where have You gone?"

In this verse, the Lord's statement, tesam evanukampartham generally means "Fortunately for them," or, "To favor them." But it may also be interpreted, "I want their favor. I aspire for the favor of those devotees of the highest order. "

The Lord also says in the Srimad Bhagavatam :

mayi bhaktir hi bhutanam, amrtatvaya kalpate

distya yad asin mat-sneho, bhavatinam mad-apanah

"Devotion to Me is the only means for the living beings to attain eternal life. O Gopis, by your fortune, your love and affection for Me is the only reason for your getting My association."

 

In the Internet version of "The Vaisnava Tosani" it is not clear who is speaking here. Actually it is not H.H. Govinda Maharaj but rather Srila Sridhar

Maharaj, himself, directly.

[theist 1]

I think Guruvani nailed it beautifully in post 36. This is a new subject for me and I have no personal understanding one way or the other so I want to just follow the conversation and learn something new. I wouldlike to ask what specific objection does anyone have, if any, to post 36?

[Shakti-Fan 0]

 

I would like to ask what specific objection does anyone have, if any, to post 36?

 

 

... they are situated in the plane of pure love, spontaneous and automatic (raga-marga), how can it be harmonized that the Lord will now in the last stage destroy their ignorance which is born from misunderstanding, by giving them knowledge? Jnana is only a cover - a futile, finite conception of the Infinite Absolute. When they have achieved devotion devoid of the covering of knowledge, how will they again have to return to that knowledge?

 

 

So, Sridhar Maharaja is objecting to this concept that the devotee will be blessed with "jnana" which is generally taken to be the impersonal brahman realization. Especially, he is objecting to the idea that the pure devotees will be blessed with jnana.

 

Jnana may also indicate impersonal brahman realization. I don't see that emphasized here. "To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me." (BG as it Is 10.10)

 

tesam evanukampartham aham ajnana-jam tamah

nashayami atma-bhavastho jnana-dipena bhasvata

The general interpretation is always given for this verse:

"Out of compassion for them, I, situated within their hearts, dispel the darkness of ignorance with the radiance of knowledge."

The general interpretation is given by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana

 

 

When they have achieved devotion devoid of the covering of knowledge, how will they again have to return to that knowledge? In his commentary, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur has mentioned that this knowledge is extraordinary (vilaksanam), but he did not enter into specific detail. To clarify this point, we have given the following explanation

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur is giving commentary from a rasik point of view. Here Srila Sridhar Maharaja is explaining explicitly what Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur is implying or indicating by using the word vilaksanam.

[Guruvani 0]

 

Read this part again:Originally Posted by Guestof Krishna

But if we appreciate pure, noncalculative devotion (jnana-sunya bhakti), the Lord's statement here may again appear redundant and inconsistent. When those high devotees are already admitted to be performing continuous and unadulterated service, and even above that, they are situated in the plane of pure love, spontaneous and automatic (raga-marga), how can it be harmonized that the Lord will now in the last stage destroy their ignorance which is born from misunderstanding, by giving them knowledge? Jnana is only a cover - a futile, finite conception of the Infinite Absolute. When they have achieved devotion devoid of the covering of knowledge, how will they again have to return to that knowledge? In his commentary, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur has mentioned that this knowledge is extraordinary (vilaksanam), but he did not enter into specific detail. To clarify this point, we have given the following explanation...

 

 

I think the point we have to understand in this statement of Sridhar Maharaja is that his viewpoint is dealing with the issue of:

 

 

When those high devotees are already admitted to be performing continuous and unadulterated service, and even above that, they are situated in the plane of pure love, spontaneous and automatic

Obviously, the Bhagavad-gita was spoken to Arjuna who was in a quandary about performing the service that the Lord was asking of him - to kill so many warriors, friends and respected elders.

So, the Gita will have different meanings for different levels of devotees.

 

Sridhar Maharaja is showing some light on how the raganuga devotees will understand this verse in question.

Obviously, not all the students of Bhagavad-gita are on the spontaneous platform and it might be a little artificial for the sadhaka section of devotees to presume that the regulative aspect of instruction in this verse is beneath them.

 

Srila Prabhupada gives this version:

 

 

The modern philosophers think that without discriminating one cannot have pure knowledge. For them this answer is given by the Supreme Lord: those who are engaged in pure devotional service, even though they be without sufficient education and even without sufficient knowledge of the Vedic principles, are still helped by the Supreme God, as stated in this verse.

The actual words are

jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā

 

 

 

So, Krishna is not saying that with knowledge he destroys the darkness of ignorance, but with the "shining lamp".

The personal form of Krishna is the "shining lamp" from which knowledge (light) comes. So, he is not saying that with knowledge he will destroy the darkness of ignorance but with the "shining lamp" that is the basis of jnana.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada says it like this in the purport:

 

 

 

 

The pure devotee always has Kṛṣṇa within his heart; and with the presence of Kṛṣṇa, who is just like the sun, the darkness of ignorance is at once dissipated.

[Guruvani 0]

Obviously, since Lord Krishna is nurturing all his devotees: karma-misra, jnana-misra, yoga-misra, suddha-bhaktas as well as the raganuga bhaktas, he has something in this verse for all of them.

Depending on which stage or which platform one is on, Lord Krishna is giving encouragement to all his devotees in this verse.

 

Sridhar Maharaja explained something about how the raganuga devotees can look at this verse from one of several different angles.

 

Srila Prabhupada translates the line jñāna-dīpena bhāsvatā

as "the shining lamp of knowledge" showing that it is the "shining lamp" that is the focus and not the light coming from the lamp.

 

The lamp of knowledge is Krishna's personal form, not the impersonal brahman. Brahman is the light of the lamp, not the lamp.

 

So, Srila Prabhupada also explained the verse in a "jnana-sunya" (devoid of impersonal conceptions) way, with a different concept than Sridhar Maharaja.

 

Both commentaries are pure and enlightening.

 

My motivation in these posts was to show that Srila Prabhupada did NOT give a jnana-misra version of the verse as some might assume against the raganuga version of Sridhar Maharaja.

[Bishadi 0]

 

In Sri Guru and His Grace, Srila Sridhar Maharaja says in ch. 14.

“In his conversation with Ramananda Raya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

rejected devotion contaminated with reason. He said, eho bahya age

kaha ara, "This is superficial; go further." Mahaprabhu accepted that

real bhakti begins from the stage of pure devotion, unmixed with

reason.”

This put me to thinking.......

Immediately, the "Moon is further than the Sun" controversy came to mind.

It hit me that "hey, maybe that is what this is really all about?"

Maybe the "Moon is further than the Sun" is a lesson that Srila Prabhupada taught and a test he gave to seperate pure devotees from devotees whose devotion is mixed with reason.

Reason tells us that, in the face of the scientific information available to all us people of the modern age, the Moon is in fact NOT further than the Sun.

The Sun is further than the Moon according to science.

But, this "Moon is further than the Sun" is really a great challenge and a great test that in fact forces the disciples of Srila Prabhupada to reject devotional service mixed with reason and scientific knowledge and embrace a very rich form of devotion that has to rise above the realm of reason to the realm of the inconceivable and non-calculative.

That is what the revealing of truth is for. To allow Understanding that the sciences and the faith of religions will be married..

It is a fact that faith contaminated by scholarship and mundane scientific knowledge is a form of mixed devotion.

One is for an attempt to Understand within physical comprehension withstanding rituals and one uses rituals to reach a conscious humility to that unknowing.

Devotees of

ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> are required to embrace the infinite and the inconceivable. If we cling to scientific conceptions at the cost of scriptural chastity, then we have failed to achieve unmixed devotion.

Without physical application there can be No true conviction. Human nature …

Srila Prabhupada was not prepared to accept this form of devotion mixed with reason.

He faithfully and loyally adhered to the Bhagavat conceptions and rejected this devotion mixed with scientific knowledge.

And then you suggest he was a chemist…

That is indeed a marvelous and amazing quality considering that Srila Prabhupada was in fact a chemist in his family life and not at all sheltered from modern scientific thinkers.

And like me, it was in chemistry where the errors are found to stand out.

Knowing well that most everybody in the world believed that NASA landed men on the Moon, Srila Prabhupada deliberately challenged that scientific community and rejected their claims that they landed on the Moon on the basis of the Bhagavatam version that the Moon is further than the Sun.

So Srila Prabhupada drew a line in the sand to seperate mixed devotion from devotion uncomtaminated by reason.

Pure devotion uncontaminated by reason is the symbol of Vrindavan.

All those who cherish the ideal of Vrindavan would do well to do as Srila Prabhupada did and reject this devotion contaminated by reason.

Why would you read a book on your operating system?

A method to observe may be to recognize that the entailing framework as to how all things exist had never been known or taught.

If there were 2 splashes on a pond, will there be increases and decreases of the waves upon interactions? The answer is ‘yes.’

What to see is if waves interact as some point there will be a reversed entropy. This is the concept in the sciences that has never been addressed; when energy associates there will be point of increased momentum that are not being addressed. IN physics they call it angular momentum and the frequency is the only assessment to the total power and not the increased amplitude.

You heard it from the lion’s keyboard.

All of the great teachers knew of the coming of the final knowledge.

The teachers did not say do not reason, they said the subjectivity to compassion should over come the basis by the sciences alone. The religions are for the associations of people, the sciences are for the descriptions.

Reasoned compassion is our greatest gift in contrast there is still the ones to secularize based on a belief; complacency.

Until the final truth walks.

Hello!

[Guest guest]

Why has nobody quoted Prabhupada about religion without philosophy is sentimentality and philosopy without religion is mental speculation.

That pretty much wraps it up.

[theist 1]

There is knowledge relative and knowledge Absolute. Krsna out of His mercy for His devotee does not bestow just some relative knowledge but rather Absolute knowledge of the self , the Supersoul and one's relationship.

 

How can that be considered an illusory covering?

 

I am not convinced of the need to construe Bhagavad-gita in terms of the most intimate rasa's as I believe Bhagavad-gita was meant for a different class of human. I believe this to be evidenced by the subjects addressed throughout the Gita itself.

 

No doubt a rasika will be able to see higher rasa everywhere but what meaning does that have for bulk of humanity for which bhagavad-gita was intended?

[Bishadi 0]

 

Why has nobody quoted Prabhupada about religion without philosophy is sentimentality and philosopy without religion is mental speculation.

That pretty much wraps it up.

“The presentation of this knowledge in a systematic and scientific manner will bring about universal sublime peace. Yet . . . unauthorized cults have mushroomed into prominence and are fast expanding their illegitimate fold with naïve disciples. What one fails to comprehend is how the leaders of these cults . . . can suddenly rise to the position of spiritual master themselves. The subject matter that needs to be promulgated among the people is not some cheap, sentimental concoction meant to deceive them.”

page 117, Renunciation Through Wisdom (by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1992)

<O:P></O:P>

Ganesha: Srila Prabhupada, if the knowledge was handed down by the saintly kings, evam parampara-praptam, how is it that the knowledge was lost?

Srila Prabhupada: When it was not handed down. Simply understood by speculation. Or if it is not handed down as it is. They might have made some changes. Or they did not hand it down. Suppose I handed it down to you, but if you do not do that, then it is lost. Now the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><ST1:PLACE><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place></ST1:PLACE> consciousness movement is going on in my presence. NOW AFTER MY DEPARTURE, IF YOU DO NOT DO THIS, THEN IT IS LOST. If you go on as you are doing now, then it will go on. BUT IF YOU STOP...”<O:P></O:P>

Room Conversation with Carol Cameron--<ST1:DATE Year="1975" Day="9" Month="5"><st1:date Year="1975" Day="9" Month="5">May 9, 1975</st1:date></ST1:DATE>, <ST1:CITY><ST1:PLACE><st1:City><st1:place>Perth</st1:place></st1:City></ST1:PLACE></ST1:CITY> (emphasis added)

Basically, if the sciences are not included then the path is only a portion of the truth. If the ‘kings’ knew, then it was lost as it can not be found in any existing rendition.

Well at least available in print.

“A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal, and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord”

The covenant is that the children of tomorrow will have Understanding, that is the promise and will be kept. No single sect has the total story although each suggests this to be so. Still many claim the other a liar, when none can describe why we are alive and how it works. That is the objective of Understanding; the sciences and religions will be combined.

And even though the scope breaks many rules of faith; the truth will begin without the complacent. No need for the truth to comply or be accepted, as them who suggest knowing actually reap the lower status by self imposed secularization.

Ever heard, ‘the last will be first and the first to be last’

 

[Guruvani 0]

 

“The presentation of this knowledge in a systematic and scientific manner will bring about universal sublime peace. Yet . . . unauthorized cults have mushroomed into prominence and are fast expanding their illegitimate fold with naïve disciples. What one fails to comprehend is how the leaders of these cults . . . can suddenly rise to the position of spiritual master themselves. The subject matter that needs to be promulgated among the people is not some cheap, sentimental concoction meant to deceive them.”

page 117, Renunciation Through Wisdom (by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1992)

I don't believe these are the words of Srila Prabhupada.

I don't have a complete Vedabase to check it, but I have never heard Srila Prabhupada used the word "mushroomed" or "their illegitimate fold" etc. etc.

These words don't smack of Srila Prabhupada.

It sounds like a forgery to me.

That book was published in 1992 and was never approved by Srila Prabhupada.

I don't accept those words as the actual words of Srila Prabhupada.

It doesn't sound like any style of language that I have ever heard from Srila Prabhupada.

Probably a BBT forgery.

[Guest guest]

The body is always inviting death, come to me. This body means invitation to death. So dear our body to us, but our real welfare is to get out of this body and do not enter this body which is so dear to us at present.

 

I am in danger, and this body is only an outer product. The mental body is responsible for everything we can see in our dream. That mental body. There is a country where those bodies move and live, government also. They are also dealt with. Pitr Loka. Generally, according to Hindu Sastra, the departed souls live in the moon. Daksi Narayana means it passes from the body but again to return to this side. That is their karma. The mental body is of such quality that he will again come back here. So after death they go up to the moon. They rest for some time there.

 

And there is an arrangement in the sastra to send something to those souls in Pitriloka in their name. It is offered and given to the sadhus, brahmins, cows, and this way the departed souls get the food. They have left their bodily energy here, and those that go to eat offerings take his position as a representative after his departure from this world. They eat his own accumulated energy remaining on earth. The family should offer something to them, to the brahmins and cows who are representative of the departed soul. And by the process of mantram it is as if such subtle company is there, if it is done under some scriptural direction, the offerings will have to reach to that place, to the departed souls.

 

The subtle body of the departed soul is supposed to stay there and it will be taken there by the process of mantram. The rsi, there is a company, an intermediary organization like a Postal Service, and this company looks after that affairs of the departed souls, to transmit offerings of Pinda to them. And according to their necessity they will get that food sent from here. Just as if I sent rupees from here M.O. that can be converted into dollars in America. So there is this exchange. Whatever I shall offer that will be converted by that postal company. The necessary need, sent wherever he is living. That will send them there. Originally called Chandraloka. And their fortnight, their day increasing according to the increment of the moon. Black and bright phases of the moon, that is the growing moon, that is their day, and the fading moon, that is their night.

 

It is mentioned in Bhagavad Gita also, that in one month there is the day and night in Chandra loka. And those whose karma is not taken in again here, those who have no karma for this earth, this earth is the center, and the moon revolves around the earth. Their karma, it crosses the limit of the attraction of the earth, and passes into the great void crossing the attraction of the earth. They pass and go somewhere else to have their life near the sun, utaryana. There is more light, and chandra-loka is different. It is circumbulating this earth but the sun is above earth and light, knowledge representing.

 

So. beyond the boundary of the earth, he goes away never to return on this earth again in those subtle bodies. Utarayana, and this is daksinarayana. He leaves this earth forever and goes somewhere else according to his karma to live there.

 

But we are asked to make our direction to go through the sun, through the light, through knowledge. Jotir abhantare rupam atulam syamasundaram, this is a relative direction.

 

Light, what is light proper? Light is knowledge. Knowledge is light. Ignorance is darkness. So piercing the light that is knowledge, we should try to find Syamasundar, a green person with an ever fresh green land. Syamasundar means green beauty, personification of green beauty. We are to try to seek through the sun, through the light. That is the remote direction given to us by the revealed mantram, adi deva.

 

Go to light, avoid darkness. Welcome light.

 

But light is the representative of knowledge and tackle the knowledge in such a way that you can find a cosmos which is very beautiful and evergreen. Syamasundara.

 

Satyam, sivam, sundaram. Mangalam, that is good and is beautiful. We are given such direction; direction is given in a symbolic way.

 

We are far from that person of a remote place. Some symbolical expression is extended. This way, tad visnu paramamam padam. In gayatri veda mata, in only one sentence it is there, containing the whole vedic truth. That is Gayatri.

 

 

What is that? Om bhur bhuvah svah tat savitur varenyam. Different stages of physical experience, you are in the midst of that. Gross to subtle - tat savitur.

 

Then, a categorical change! Whatever He is divulging to you, the material gross and subtle, whatever makes you conscious of, that gross and subtle experience, catch that light which is showing to you!

 

Light does not create a thing. Light shows the thing. So the knowledge showing power of Him, that power shows the things we perceive. Try to achieve that knowledge; the knowledge of that which is showing us existence. That revealing Consciousness. That is, go to the subjective aspect of things. Try to catch the shower, the revealer. That is consciousness; it is in the background. It is not what is being shown, it is not that, but He who is showing. Try to pierce into the subjective arena. Enter there if possible.

 

It is possible that you can come there. There you will find what it is that is showing existence to you. It is Savitur. Savitur is that which is giving back to all these material experiences.

 

The light, this light means the sun. It is giving birth to all this life by sending his ray. So savituh, the universal subject, that is helping your dependent subjects (knowers) to see and to have an experience of this world. Try to connect with that.

 

Savitur varenyam bhargo, then some reverential feeling, try to cause yourself to have some reverence. Varenyam, what power of consciousness that is showing to you, that grand general subject, you should try to pierce through to find the world on the other side, the transcendental side, the other side, the higher side, the upper side. And there you will find varenyam, that is, vareni puja, that is a venerable world. Here the question of submission and devotion comes in.

 

Not only light, not only knowledge, but there you will find that a venerable plane is on the other side, and it is that which we should serve, we should worship and we should respect. Such a world is on the other side. Varenyam. Bhargo means that is all-knowledge but mixed with adoration or devotion, dedication, worship. That nature, that world.

 

Devasya dhimahi, and we should try to exert our all, our conscious, our self, to the bhargo devasya, the effulgent personality who is a divine personality.

 

The root meaning of deva is, He who is very beautiful and full of pastimes; a dynamic character, not static.

 

Beauty and vilasa lila. He is sundara and He is lila. Deva means He is bhargo - full of opulence (Bhagavan). His bhargo paraphernalia is a venerable and knowing substance (pure consciousness). Devasya dhimahi dhiyo yo nah pracodayat. If we try to with this venerated knowing faculty you can use and He will enhance that. If we can engage ourselves in that endeavor and the reaction we should get for that sort of work, that it will increase our capacity to go higher and higher in that direction. Dhiyo yo nah pracodayat.

 

Dhiyo yo nah pracodayat. Our capacity will be increased as the reaction. Not only other renumeration for that sort of campaign or endeavor. This is the substance which is given, which is within gayatri, which is considered the mother of the whole of vedic truth, in a nutshell. Gayatri.

 

 

======

<b>

Is it necessary to say who said this?

 

Only one person could say this. Only one person.

 

He says the moon is revolving around the earth and that the sun is more distant.

 

He says there is a mental world of chandraloka. That subtle world of departed souls is not the same thing as a "the moon".

</b>

[Guruvani 0]

the previous author didn't give credits to the author of that piece, whom was Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

 

In the future, please give proper credit to the acharyas when you are posting their words.

Otherwise, we might think you are wanting to get credit for these words yourself.

[Bishadi 0]

 

I don't believe these are the words of Srila Prabhupada.

I don't have a complete Vedabase to check it, but I have never heard Srila Prabhupada used the word "mushroomed" or "their illegitimate fold" etc. etc.

These words don't smack of Srila Prabhupada.

It sounds like a forgery to me.

That books was published in 1992 and was never approved by Srila Prabhupada.

I don't accept those words as the actual words of Srila Prabhupada.

It doesn't sound like any style of language that I have ever heard from Srila Prabhupada.

.

So basically you suggest I offer bad material and possibly lying based on a construct that you do not have access to the data. And you are supposed to be compassionate yet categorized me and the data without taking the possibility of error upon yourself

Any then you share to believe in this below as truth?!?1?!?

 

The body is always inviting death, come to me. This body means invitation to death. So dear our body to us, but our real welfare is to get out of this body and do not enter this body which is so dear to us at present.

“Life; is purposed to continue” and instinct will take over even if the conscious chooses otherwise. Basically to swallow something bad, your body will puke it up.

There is no life or consciously existing sole with memories after death. (see Alzheimer’s) The only existence left is what your ‘body’ contributes by your choices as you live. Plant a tree, contribute to a birth, teach good knowledge but please the idea of some omnipotence or heaven where we meet out forefathers in some mystical place does not exist. No reincarnations, these are myths. There is nothing that will instill memories on a sole without learning or the entanglement of energy reflecting a prophecy or sight in which most do not even recognize it is happening; dejavu.

These hopes and dreams are the misleading of faith, like offering carrots to the applicants.

Want the truth? Ask.