is Krsna an incarnation of Maha-Vishnu?

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

 

Dear Puru das,

Pamho!

. . . I would like to know the exact source of this dialogue between krsna and Brahma and how was it conceived.

Thanks.

regards,

YK.

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 30

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

narayanas tvam na hi sarva-dehinam

 

atmasy adhisakhila-loka-saksi

 

narayano 'ngam nara-bhu-jalayanat

 

tac capi satyam na tavaiva maya

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>narayanah--Lord Narayana; tvam--You; na--not; hi--certainly; sarva--all; dehinam--of the embodied beings; atma--the Supersoul; asi--You are; adhisa--O Lord; akhila-loka--of all the worlds; saksi--the witness; narayanah--known as Narayana; angam--plenary portion; nara--of Nara; bhu--born; jala--in the water; ayanat--due to the place of refuge; tat--that; ca--and; api--certainly; satyam--highest truth; na--not; tava--Your; eva--at all; maya--the illusory energy.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"O Lord of lords, You are the seer of all creation. You are indeed everyone's dearest life. Are You not, therefore, my father, Narayana? Narayana refers to one whose abode is in the water born from Nara [Garbhodakasayi Visnu], and that Narayana is Your plenary portion. All Your plenary portions are transcendental. They are absolute and are not creations of maya."

 

 

<CENTER>PURPORT

 

</CENTER>This statement, which is from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.14.14), was spoken by Lord Brahma in his prayers to Lord Krsna after the Lord had defeated him by displaying His mystic powers. Brahma had tried to test Lord Krsna to see if He were really the Supreme Personality of Godhead playing as a cowherd boy. Brahma stole all the other boys and their calves from the pasturing grounds, but when he returned to the pastures he saw that all the boys and calves were still there, for Lord Krsna had created them all again. When Brahma saw this mystic power of Lord Krsna's, he admitted defeat and offered prayers to the Lord, addressing Him as the proprietor and seer of everything in the creation and as the Supersoul who is within each and every living entity and is dear to all. That Lord Krsna is Narayana, the father of Brahma, because Lord Krsna's plenary expansion Garbhodakasayi Visnu, after placing Himself on the Garbha Ocean, created Brahma from His own body. Maha-Visnu in the Causal Ocean and Ksirodakasayi Visnu, the Supersoul in everyone's heart, are also transcendental expansions of the Supreme Truth.

 

Cc. Adi lila Ch.2 Txt 30

 

The discussion continues in the nrest of the verse from 31 to the end of the chapter. At some point the dialogue of Brahmaji stops and Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami takes up the same points. I have to read more carefuly to discern the exact verse where they switch.

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

Since I posted already verse 47-53 and verse 30 I can fill in with verse 31-46. You have the url for the chapter.

http://bvml.org/books/CC/adi/02.html

 

If you can put some stock in the author and the translator then I suggest you examine it for yourself. If you do the subject matter of Krsna, Narayana and Visnu should become clear to you, at least how Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami and how Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and other gaudiya acaryas understand this topic.

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 31

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

sisu vatsa hari' brahma kari aparadha

 

aparadha ksamaite magena prasada

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>sisu--playmates; vatsa--calves; hari'--stealing; brahma--Lord Brahma; kari--making; aparadha--offense; aparadha--offense; ksamaite--to pardon; magena--begged; prasada--mercy.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>After Brahma had offended Krsna by stealing His playmates and calves, he begged the Lord's pardon for his offensive act and prayed for the Lord's mercy.

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 32

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

tomara nabhi-padma haite amara janmodaya

 

tumi pita-mata, ami tomara tanaya

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>tomara--Your; nabhi-padma--lotus of the navel; haite--from; amara--my; janma-udaya--birth; tumi--You; pita--father; mata--mother; ami--I; tomara--Your; tanaya--son.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"I took birth from the lotus that grew from Your navel. Thus You are both my father and my mother, and I am Your son."

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 33

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

pita mata balakera na laya aparadha

 

aparadha ksama, more karaha prasada

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>pita--father; mata--mother; balakera--of the child; na--not; laya--take seriously; aparadha--the offense; aparadha--the offense; ksama--please pardon; more--unto me; karaha--please show; prasada--mercy.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"Parents never take seriously the offenses of their children. I therefore beg Your pardon and ask for Your benediction."

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 34

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

krsna kahena----brahma, tomara pita narayana

 

ami gopa, tumi kaiche amara nandana

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>krsna--Lord Krsna; kahena--says; brahma--O Lord Brahma; tomara--your; pita--father; narayana--Lord Narayana; ami--I (am); gopa--cowherd boy; tumi--you; kaiche--how; amara--My; nandana--son.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>Sri Krsna said, "O Brahma, your father is Narayana. I am but a cowherd boy. How can you be My son?"

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 35

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

brahma balena, tumi ki na hao narayana

 

tumi narayana----suna tahara karana

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>brahma--Lord Brahma; balena--says; tumi--You; ki na hao--are not; narayana--Lord Narayana; tumi--You; narayana--Lord Narayana; suna--please hear; tahara--of that; karana--reason.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>Brahma replied, "Are You not Narayana? You are certainly Narayana. Please listen as I state the proofs.

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 36

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

prakrtaprakrta-srstye yata jiva-rupa

 

tahara ye atma tumi mula-svarupa

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>prakrta--material; aprakrta--and spiritual; srstye--in the creations; yata--as many as there are; jiva-rupa--the living beings; tahara--of them; ye--who; atma--the Supersoul; tumi--You; mula-svarupa--ultimate source.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"All the living beings within the material and spiritual worlds are ultimately born of You, for You are the Supersoul of them all."

 

 

<CENTER>PURPORT

 

</CENTER>The cosmic manifestation is generated by the interaction of the three modes of material nature. The transcendental world has no such material modes, although it is nevertheless full of spiritual variegatedness. In that spiritual world there are also innumerable living entities, who are eternally liberated souls engaged in transcendental loving service to Lord Krsna. The conditioned souls, who remain within the material cosmic creation, are subjected to the threefold miseries and pangs of material nature. They exist in different species of life because they are eternally averse to transcendental loving devotion to the Supreme Lord.

 

Sankarsana is the original source of all living entities because they are all expansions of His marginal potency. Some of them are conditioned by material nature, whereas others are under the protection of the spiritual nature. The material nature is a conditional manifestation of spiritual nature, just as smoke is a conditional stage of fire. Smoke is dependent on fire, but in a blazing fire there is no place for smoke. Smoke disturbs, but fire serves. The serving spirit of the residents of the transcendental world is displayed in five varieties of relationship with the Supreme Lord, who is the central enjoyer. In the material world everyone is a self-centered enjoyer of mundane happiness and distress. A person considers himself the lord of everything and tries to enjoy the illusory energy, but he is not successful because he is not independent: he is but a minute particle of the energy of Lord Sankarsana. All living beings exist under the control of the Supreme Lord, who is therefore called Narayana.

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 37

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

prthvi yaiche ghata-kulera karana asraya

 

jivera nidana tumi, tumi sarvasraya

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>prthvi--the earth; yaiche--just as; ghata--of earthen pots; kulera--of the multitude; karana--the cause; asraya--the shelter; jivera--of the living beings; nidana--root cause; tumi--You; tumi--You; sarva-asraya--shelter of all.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"As the earth is the original cause and shelter of all pots made of earth, so You are the ultimate cause and shelter of all living beings."

 

 

<CENTER>PURPORT

 

</CENTER>As the vast earth is the source for the ingredients of all earthen pots, so the Supreme Soul is the source for the complete substance of all individual living entities. The cause of all causes, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the cause of the living entities. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (7.10), where the Lord says, bijam mam sarva-bhutanam ("I am the seed of all living entities"), and in the Upanisads (Katha Upanisad 5.3), which say, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam ("the Lord is the supreme leader among all the eternal living beings").

 

The Lord is the reservoir of all cosmic manifestation, animate and inanimate. The advocates of Visistadvaita-vada philosophy explain the Vedanta-sutra by saying that although the living entity has two kinds of bodies--subtle (consisting of mind, intelligence and false ego) and gross (consisting of the five basic elements)--and although he thus lives in three bodily dimensions (gross, subtle and spiritual), he is nevertheless a spiritual soul. Similarly, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who emanates the material and spiritual worlds, is the Supreme Spirit. As an individual spirit soul is almost identical to his gross and subtle bodies, so the Supreme Lord is almost identical to the material and spiritual worlds. The material world, full of conditioned souls trying to lord it over matter, is a manifestation of the external energy of the Supreme Lord, and the spiritual world, full of perfect servitors of the Lord, is a manifestation of His internal energy. Since all living entities are minute sparks of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is the Supreme Soul in both the material and spiritual worlds. The Vaisnavas following Lord Caitanya stress the doctrine of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, which states that the Supreme Lord, being the cause and effect of everything, is inconceivably, simultaneously one with His manifestations of energy and different from them.

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 38

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

'nara'-sabde kahe sarva jivera nicaya

 

'ayana'-sabdete kahe tahara asraya

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>nara-sabde--by the word nara; kahe--one means; sarva jivera--of all living entities; nicaya--the assemblage; ayana-sabdete--by the word ayana; kahe--one means; tahara--of them; asraya--the refuge.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"The word nara refers to the aggregate of all the living beings, and the word ayana refers to the refuge of them all."

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 39

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

ataeva tumi hao mula narayana

 

ei eka hetu, suna dvitiya karana

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>ataeva--therefore; tumi--You; hao--are; mula--original; narayana--Narayana; ei--this; eka--one; hetu--reason; suna--please listen; dvitiya--second; karana--to the reason.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"You are therefore the original Narayana. This is one reason; please listen as I state the second."

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 40

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

jivera isvara----purusadi avatara

 

tanha saba haite tomara aisvarya apara

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>jivera--of the living beings; isvara--the Supreme Lord; purusa-adi--purusa incarnations, etc.; avatara--incarnations; tanha--Them; saba--all; haite--than; tomara--Your; aisvarya--opulences; apara--boundless.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"The direct Lords of the living beings are the purusa incarnations. But Your opulence and power are more exalted than Theirs."

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 41

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

ataeva adhisvara tumi sarva pita

 

tomara saktite tanra jagat-raksita

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>ataeva--therefore; adhisvara--primeval Lord; tumi--You; sarva--of all; pita--father; tomara--Your; saktite--by the energy; tanra--They; jagat--of the cosmic creations; raksita--protectors.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"Therefore You are the primeval Lord, the original father of everyone. They [the purusas] are protectors of the universes by Your power."

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 42

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

narera ayana yate karaha palana

 

ataeva hao tumi mula narayana

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>narera--of the living beings; ayana--the shelters; yate--those to whom; karaha--You give; palana--protection; ataeva--therefore; hao--are; tumi--You; mula--original; narayana--Narayana.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"Since You protect those who are the shelters of all living beings, You are the original Narayana."

 

 

<CENTER>PURPORT

 

</CENTER>The controlling Deities of the living beings in the mundane worlds are the three purusa-avataras. But the potent energy displayed by Sri Krsna is far more extensive than that of the purusas. Sri Krsna is therefore the original father and Lord who protects all creative manifestations through His various plenary portions. Since He sustains even the shelters of the collective living beings, there is no doubt that Sri Krsna is the original Narayana.

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 43

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

trtiya karana suna sri-bhagavan

 

ananta brahmanda bahu vaikunthadi dhama

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>trtiya--third; karana--reason; suna--please hear; sri-bhagavan--O Supreme Personality of Godhead; ananta--unlimited; brahma-anda--universes; bahu--many; vaikuntha-adi--Vaikuntha, etc.; dhama--planets.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"O my Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead! Kindly hear my third reason. There are countless universes and fathomless transcendental Vaikunthas."

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 44

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

ithe yata jiva, tara trai-kalika karma

 

taha dekha, saksi tumi, jana saba marma

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>ithe--in these; yata--as many; jiva--living beings; tara--of them; trai-kalika--past, present and future; karma--the activities; taha--that; dekha--You see; saksi--witness; tumi--You; jana--You know; saba--of everything; marma--the essence.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"Both in this material world and in the transcendental world, You see all the deeds of all living beings, in the past, present and future. Since You are the witness of all such deeds, You know the essence of everything."

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 45

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

tomara darsane sarva jagatera sthiti

 

tumi na dekhile karo nahi sthiti gati

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>tomara--Your; darsane--by the seeing; sarva--all; jagatera--of the universe; sthiti--maintenance; tumi--You; na dekhile--in not seeing; karo--of anyone; nahi--there is not; sthiti--staying; gati--moving.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"All the worlds exist because You oversee them. None can live, move or have their being without Your supervision."

 

 

 

 

<HR>

 

 

 

<CENTER>TEXT 46

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

narera ayana yate kara darasana

 

tahateo hao tumi mula narayana

 

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>narera--of the living beings; ayana--the motion; yate--since; kara--You do; darasana--seeing; tahateo--therefore; hao--are; tumi--You; mula--original; narayana--Narayana.

 

 

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>"You oversee the wanderings of all living beings. For this reason also, You are the primeval Lord Narayana."

 

 

<CENTER>PURPORT

 

</CENTER>Sri Krsna, in His Paramatma feature, lives in the hearts of all living beings in both the transcendental and mundane creations. As Paramatma, He witnesses all actions the living beings perform in all phases of time, namely past, present and future. Sri Krsna knows what the living beings have done for hundreds and thousands of past births, He sees what they are doing now, and therefore He knows the results of their present actions that will fructify in the future. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita, the entire cosmic situation is created as soon as He glances over the material energy. Nothing can exist without His superintendence. Since He sees even the abode for rest of the collective living beings, He is the original Narayana.

Cc. Adi lila Ch. 2 Txt 31-46

 

Looks like my godbrother was correct and the whole chapter needs to be posted to give the whole picture. Dandavat pranams to Sripad Bhumipati das adhikari, for pointing out to me that this second chapter of the Cc. Adi lila gives such nice information on this topic. His appreciation of His Divine Grace's books has made him a veritable encyclopedia of pertinent references. Thanks again to him.

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

 

Dear Puru das,

Pamho!

Kindly enlighten me on the source of Cc. I'm not an expert on it. The above mentioned text is from Cc as you have stated. But I don't fully know the correct history of Cc. It is a gaudiya scripture alright written not longer ago than 400 years. How was it conceived?

. . .

Thanks.

regards,

YK.

 

excerpted from:

http://bvml.org/books/CC/adi/index.html#Intro

 

The Caitanya-caritamrta teaches that the spirit soul is immortal and that our activities in the spiritual world are also immortal. The Mayavadis, who hold to the view that the Absolute is impersonal and formless, contend that a realized soul has no need to talk. However, the Vaisnavas, who are devotees of Krsna, contend that when one reaches the stage of realization, he really begins to talk. "Previously we only talked of nonsense," the Vaisnava says. "Now let us begin our real talks, talks of Krsna." The Mayavadis are also fond of using the example of the waterpot, maintaining that when a pot is not filled with water it makes a sound, but that when it is filled it makes no sound. But are we waterpots? How can we be compared to them? A good analogy utilizes as many similarities between two objects as possible. A waterpot is not an active living force, but we are. Ever-silent meditation may be adequate for a waterpot, but not for us. Indeed, when a devotee realizes how much he has to say about Krsna, twenty-four hours in a day are not sufficient. It is the fool who is celebrated as long as he does not speak, for when he breaks his silence his lack of knowledge is exposed. The Caitanya-caritamrta shows that there are many wonderful things to discover by glorifying the Supreme.

 

In the beginning of the Caitanya-caritamrta, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami writes, "I offer my respects to my spiritual masters." He uses the plural here to indicate the disciplic succession. It is not that he offers obeisances to his spiritual master alone but to the whole parampara, the chain of disciplic succession beginning with Lord Krsna Himself. Thus the guru is addressed in the plural to show the author's highest respect for all the Vaisnavas. After offering obeisances to the disciplic succession, the author pays obeisances to all other devotees, Godbrothers, the expansions of Godhead and the first manifestation of Krsna's energy. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu (sometimes called Krsna Caitanya) is the embodiment of all of these; He is God, guru, devotee and the expansion of God. As His associate Nityananda, He is the first manifestation of energy; as Advaita, He is an incarnation; as Gadadhara, He is the internal potency; and as Srivasa, He is the marginal living entity. Thus Krsna should not be thought of as being alone but should be considered as eternally existing with all His manifestations, as described by Ramanujacarya. In the Visistadvaita philosophy, God's energies, expansions and incarnations are considered to be oneness in diversity. In other words, God is not separate from all of these; everything together is God.

 

Actually, the Caitanya-caritamrta is not intended for the novice, for it is the postgraduate study of spiritual knowledge. Ideally, one begins with the Bhagavad-gita and advances through Srimad-Bhagavatam to the Caitanya-caritamrta. Although all these great scriptures are on the same absolute level, for the sake of comparative study the Caitanya-caritamrta is considered to be on the highest platform. Every verse in it is perfectly composed. Indeed, Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda are compared to the sun and the moon in that They dissipate the darkness of the material world. In this instance both the sun and the moon have risen together, and it is proper to offer obeisances directly to Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityananda."

 

(Originally delivered as five morning lectures on the Caitanya-caritamrta--the authoritative biography of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu by Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami--before the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, New York City, April 10-14, 1967.)

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

 

Dear Puru das,

Pamho!

Kindly enlighten me on the source of Cc. I'm not an expert on it. The above mentioned text is from Cc as you have stated. But I don't fully know the correct history of Cc. It is a gaudiya scripture alright written not longer ago than 400 years. How was it conceived?

. . . Thanks.

regards,

YK.

 

<CENTER>Preface

 

http://bvml.org/books/CC/adi/index.html#Preface

 

</CENTER>There is no difference between the teachings of Lord Caitanya presented here and the teachings of Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita. The teachings of Lord Caitanya are practical demonstrations of Lord Krsna's teachings. Lord Krsna's ultimate instruction in the Bhagavad-gita is that everyone should surrender unto Him, Lord Krsna. Krsna promises to take immediate charge of such a surrendered soul. The Lord, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is already in charge of the maintenance of this creation by virtue of His plenary expansion, Ksirodakasayi Visnu, but this maintenance is not direct. However, when the Lord says that He takes charge of His pure devotee, He actually takes direct charge. A pure devotee is a soul who is forever surrendered to the Lord, just as a child is surrendered to his parents or an animal to its master. In the surrendering process, one should: (1) accept things favorable for discharging devotional service, (2) reject things unfavorable, (3) believe firmly in the Lord's protection, (4) feel exclusively dependent on the mercy of the Lord, (5) have no interest separate from the interest of the Lord, and (6) always feel oneself meek and humble."

HDGSACBSP

*****************************

 

http://bvml.org/SBBTM/p_rdgrbgkkg.html#skkg

 

 

<CENTER>Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami

 

</CENTER>Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami is the author of the Chaitanya Charitamrita, but has given us very little autobiographical information there. In his introduction to the Gaudiya Math’s edition of Chaitanya Charitamrita, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur has written the following about Krishnadas’s antecedents: “We do not know the names of Krishnadas’s parents. Recently their names have been discovered, [FN: According to Ashutosh Deb’s Bengali Dictionary and Haridas Das’s Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidhana, Krishnadas’s parents’ names were as Bhagiratha and Sunanda.] but no concrete evidence can be found to substantiate these claims. Krishnadas is his spiritual, not his family, name. He has given some autobiographical information in the fifth chapter of the Adi-lila, from which we learn that he was born in Jhamatpura, near the Salara railway station. Jhamatpura lies four miles west of Naihati in the Katwa block of Burdwan district. To this day, Krishnadas’s Gaura-Nitai deities are still worshiped in his home town, but there do not seem to be any descendants of his family still living there. He was ordered by Nityananda Prabhu in a dream to go to Vrindavan which is where he spent the remainder of his life. His samadhi tomb is on the grounds of the Radha-Damodar temple.” (Bhumika, ii.)

Nityananda Prabhu appeared to me in a dream in Jhamatpur, near Naihati. (1.5.181).

 

Srila Prabhupada Saraswati Goswami has established Krishnadas’s dates by collating information from several sources. He concludes that he was probably born in about 1520 AD and died in about 1616 or 1617. Vrindavan Das Thakur appeared sometime after 1510 AD. Krishnadas’s magnificent biography of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu was meant to serve as an appendix to his work.

 

 

<CENTER>Krishnadas’s Varnashrama Status

 

</CENTER>There is some difference of opinion about Krishnadas’s caste. Once again, Srila Prabhupada, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur has discussed this point: “Supporters of different ideas claim that Krishnadas was born in one of the three upper castes (Brahmin, kayastha or vaidya). Kaviraj is a title given to those who have proven themselves by composing literary works which have achieved renown for their quality in learned circles. Since this title is also given to Ayurvedic physicians, some people hold that Krishnadas was a vaidya. It is difficult to contradict those who claim that he is a Brahmin on the basis of his extraordinary mastery of the scriptures and other branches of learning, of which Chaitanya Charitamrita is an eloquent testimonial. Nor is the view that he was a kayastha altogether illogical, as he reveals a soft spot for that caste when he praises its intelligence and managerial talents in the chapters about Raghunath Das Goswami’s early life.” (Bhumika, iii.)

 

From this above discussion, we can see that Krishnadas may have been born in any of these three castes. Whatever the case, a Vaishnava is a superior human being no matter in what caste he takes his birth.

 

All scriptures state that a Vaishnava is still the best of humankind. It it does not matter in which caste he takes birth. That most sinful person who judges a Vaishnava in terms of his race or his caste will repeatedly be born in the lowest forms of life. (Chaitanya Bhagavat 2.10.100-2)

 

There is no unanimous opinion about Krishnadas’s marital status, either. Some say that he was a lifelong brahmachari when he went to Vrindavan, for if he had left a wife and family he would likely have mentioned it when telling of his renunciation. Srila Prabhupada writes in this connection, “After arriving in Vrindavan, Krishnadas became indifferent to talk about his previous family life and totally absorbed in Hari-katha. This behavior is appropriate for someone in the third or fourth station and completely committed to the devotional life. The Chaitanya Charitamrita is the composition of someone who has reached the status of a paramahamsa and is completely beyond the four ashramas. He was known as Kaviraj Goswami to his spiritual family. His spiritual identity in Vraja lila is Ratnarekha Manjari, or Kasturi Manjari according to others.

 

From Krishnadas’s statements in the Chaitanya Charitamrita, we also learn that he had a brother. Krishnadas does not give his name, but Hari Das Das writes in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidhana that he was called Shyama Das Kaviraj.

 

 

<CENTER>Krishnadas’s Vision of Nityananda Prabhu

 

</CENTER>In the course of his glorification of Nityananda Prabhu in the Chaitanya Charitamrita, Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami describes the crucial event in his life. Krishnadas had organized a 24-hour kirtan at his house and amongst those invited was Lord Nityananda’s dear associate, Minaketan Rama Das, who also lived in Jhamatpura.

 

Minaketan was a great Vaishnava who was in a constant state of devotional trance as he chanted the name of Nityananda Prabhu. In his ecstatic mood, he would sometimes hit people with his flute and sometimes slap them. In general, his ecstatic behavior was the cause of some astonishment amongst Krishnadas’s guests and most came to pay their obeisances and offer him their respects. Only Gunarnava Mishra, who had been engaged at the festival as a pujari, did not demonstrate a respectful attitude. This behavior was an indication that Gunarnava Mishra had no faith in Nityananda Prabhu. Rama Das became angry and criticized Mishra, saying,

 

”Just look! A second Romaharshana Suta who did not come forward to show respect when he saw Balaram!” (Chaitanya Charitamrita 1.5.170)

Gunarnava Mishra was pleased to have been chastised by Rama Das and simply continued in the performance of his service to the Deity. At the end of the kirtan festival, when Gunarnava Mishra had left, however, Krishnadas Kaviraj’s brother got into an argument with Minaketan Rama Das about what had happened. Krishnadas’s brother had strong faith in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, but lacked similar faith in Nityananda. Upon hearing this, Rama Das was deeply wounded and he became so angry that he broke his flute and left. The result of this curse was that Krishnadas’s brother was doomed to completely losing any devotional attitude whatsoever. Krishnadas Kaviraj, however, took the side of Nityananda Prabhu’s associate and rebuked his brother:

”These two brothers [Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu] are like one body; they are equal in their spiritual manifestation. If you do not accept the divinity of Lord Nityananda, you will fall down. To have faith in one but to disrespect the other is as logical as accepting half a hen. Better you should be an atheist by denying the divinity of both than a hypocrite who believes in one and not the other.” (Chaitanya Charitamrita 1.5.175-7)

 

The Lord is influenced by his devotees and he gives great importance to even the slightest display of attachment, bestowing upon them all that they desire. Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami writes that by taking the part of Nityananda Prabhu’s associate and chastizing his brother, he won the blessings of Nityananda Prabhu himself. Nitai came to him in a dream and ordered him to go to Vrindavan.

 

”O Krishnadas! Have no fear. Go to Vrindavan, for there you will attain all things.” After saying this, he indicated the way to Vrindavan by waving his hand and then disappeared with his associates. (Chaitanya Charitamrita 1.5.195-6)

 

By way of contrast, a person who holds devotees in contempt, though he show all the customary virtues is eternally deprived of the Lord’s blessings. The example is the zamindar Ramachandra Khan, who committed offenses to Hari Das Thakur, as a result of which he incurred Nityananda Prabhu’s displeasure. Not only did he lose everything, but his house was razed completely, leaving no remnants. Only a foolish person who lacks discrimination would be so bold as to behave unjustly toward a saintly person.

 

With words of profound humility, Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami proclaims the glories of Nityananda Prabhu:

 

I am more sinful than Jagai and Madhai and lower than a maggot in stool. Whoever hears my name loses the results of his virtuous deeds, and whoever utters my name commits a sin. Other than Nityananda, could anyone in this world show mercy to one as abominable as me? Nityananda is the incarnation of mercy; he is so intoxicated by ecstatic love that he does not discriminate between the good and the bad. He delivers anyone who fall down before him. Therefore he has delivered such a sinful and fallen person as me.

(Chaitanya Charitamrita 1.5.205-9)

 

 

<CENTER>Krishnadas Writes the Final Pastimes of the Lord

 

</CENTER>Without the mercy of Vishnu and the Vaishnavas, it is impossible to describe their glories. It is for this reason that Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami begins each chapter of the Chaitanya Charitamrita with invocations to Mahaprabhu and his associates like Nityananda Prabhu, Advaita Acharya, and concludes each chapter with a prayer for the service to the feet of Rupa and Raghunath Goswamis. He thus showed how important it is to avoid any disrespect or offense to the Vaishnavas.

 

The activities of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu are by nature wonderful and sweet. When described by Vrindavan Das Thakur, they become a shower of nectar. To describe them again would not only be repetition, but a display of arrogance, for I do not possess his powers. I shall thus only present a synopsis of those events already described fully by Vrindavan Das in his Chaitanya Mangala. I shall do my best to fully describe in this book only those incidents mentioned in his outline which he did not develop. I therefore offer respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of Vrindavan Das Thakur, praying that I will not offend his lotus feet by my action. (Chaitanya Charitamrita 2.4.5-9)

Just as Vyasadeva compiled Lord Krishna’s pastimes in Srimad Bhagavatam, Thakur Vrindavan Das depicted Lord Chaitanya’s pastimes.... I offer millions of obeisances unto the lotus feet of Vrindavan Das Thakur who has delivered the entire universe through his book. (Chaitanya Charitamrita 1.8.35,40)

 

Vrindavan Das the authorized biographer of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and equal to Srila Vyasadeva. He has described the Lord’s pastimes in such a way as to make them sweeter and sweeter. I shall try as far as possible to fill in descriptions he left out due to his fear of his book’s becoming too voluminous. (Chaitanya Charitamrita 1.13.48-9)

 

 

In his foreword to the edition of the Chaitanya Charitamrita published by the Sri Chaitanya Gaudiya Math, the president of the editorial board of Chaitanya Vani magazine, H. H. Bhakti Pramoda Puri Goswami Maharaj,

http://bvml.org/SBPPG/index.htm

has written:

 

“Vrindavan Das Thakur wrote an elaborate outline of Mahaprabhu’s lila at the beginning of the Chaitanya Bhagavat, but as he became absorbed in describing Nityananda’s activities, many events mentioned in the outline were left out of the final version of the book. Mahaprabhu’s Vrindavan devotees approached Krishnadas Kaviraj, asking him to write down a full version of these pastimes, for if it were not done, they would be forgotten. Krishnadas then went to the deity of Madana Mohana and asked him for permission to do as he had been asked. In front of all the prominent contemporary members of the Gaudiya community in Vrindavan, the garland fell from Madana Mohana’s neck. This was taken by all who were present as a sign of the Lord’s approval and they let out a joyous cheer. Madana Mohana’s pujari picked up the garland and placed it on Krishnadas’s chest. Joyfully taking the garland as a symbol of the Deity’s wishes, Krishnadas began to write his biography of the Lord. Thus he has written in great humility.

 

Chaitanya Charitamrita is being dictated to me by Madana Mohana. My writing is like the repetition of a parrot. I write as Madana Gopal orders me, just as a wooden marionette is made to dance by a puppeteer. (Chaitanya Charitamrita 1.8.78-9)

 

In writing Chaitanya Charitamrita, Krishnadas made use of Svarupa Damodar’s notes, which Raghunath Das Goswami had memorized. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur has described this as follows: “Sri Svarupa Damodar Goswami wrote an outline in Sanskrit (karica) of Mahaprabhu’s later activities. He had Raghunath memorize these verses and told him to preach them throughout the world. These verses were not written down anywhere else, however. The Chaitanya Charitamrita is the gist of Svarupa Damodar’s karica.

 

Though I am an insignificant living being, through the blessings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu I have summarized in writing everything that Svarupa Damodar recorded in his notes about the Lord’s pastimes, as well as everything that I heard from the mouth of Raghunath Das. (Chaitanya Charitamrita 3.3.269-70)

 

Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s glorious name, form, qualities and activities all manifest in Krishnadas Kaviraj’s heart, which he then published in the Chaitanya Charitamrita. He himself stated this fact in various places throughout the book:

 

I am now an old man and an invalid. My hand trembles as I write and my memory fails me. I am going blind and deaf, but still I manage to write and this is a great wonder. (Chaitanya Charitamrita 2.2.90)

 

While Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur was once glorifying the superlative character of Chaitanya Charitamrita to his disciples, he instructed them as follows: “If it were to happen that all the books in the world were destroyed, leaving only Srimad Bhagavatam and Chaitanya Charitamrita, then the people of this world would still be able to achieve the ultimate goal in life. Even if the Srimad Bhagavatam were lost, leaving only the Chaitanya Charitamrita, there would be no loss to humanity, for that which has not been revealed in the Bhagavat is found in Chaitanya Charitamrita. The supreme absolute truth is Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the combined form of Radha and Krishna. The Chaitanya Charitamrita is his sound incarnation. The divine mystery of Radharani’s divine status and glories are found therein. Can there be any doubt, therefore, of the supreme status of this piece of transcendental literature?”

 

 

This statement underscores the supremely special status of Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami himself. His three books, Chaitanya Charitamrita, Govinda-lilamrita and a commentary on Krishna-karnamrita, are all priceless works. Govinda-lilamrita describes in detail Lord Krishna’s activities over a twenty-four-hour period. Narottama Das Thakur has therefore stated:

krishnadasa kaviraja, rasika bhakata majh

 

jenho kaila caitanya-carita

 

gaura-govinda-lila, shunite galaye shila

 

tahate na haila mora cita

 

Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami stands out amongst the devotional literati, for he is the author of the biography of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. He described both Gaura and Govinda’s lila, hearing which even a stone would melt. Alas, even so, my mind has not been attracted by these works. (Prema-bhakti-candrika)

 

Krishnadas was honored with the title kaviraja (“king of poets”) for his Govinda-lilamrita. He is also respected in the Vaishnava world as the best amongst the followers of Rupa Goswami.

 

 

<CENTER>The Authoritativeness of the Chaitanya Charitamrita

 

</CENTER>From the illustrious commentator Vishvanath Chakravarti’s tika to the Chaitanya Charitamrita, we can understand a little better just how dear Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami was to Radharani, and by the same token, how the deepest and most esoteric truths of the Divinity were revealed to him, showing that every word he wrote is to be taken as the supreme spiritual truth. H. H. Bhakti Pramoda Puri Maharaj has recounted the following anecdote in his foreward to the Chaitanya Gaudiya Math edition of the Chaitanya Charitamrita: “While Vishvanath Chakravarti was writing his commentary on the Chaitanya Charitamrita, Madhya-lila 21.125, he was unable to understand why Kaviraj Goswami had written that the kama-gayatri mantra consists of 24_ syllables rather than 25. He became so distraught by his inability to comprehend that he finally took a vow to starve to death by the banks of Radha Kund. As he dozed off in the middle of the night, the daughter of Vrishabhanu appeared to him in a dream and said to him, ‘O Vishvanath! Get up. Krishnadas has indeed written correctly. He is my dear girlfriend, who brings me much pleasure. I have blessed him so that he can understand the most intimate truths about myself. Do not doubt anything he has written. In the book named Varnagama-bhasvat, it is written that whenever the syllable ya is followed by the syllable vi, it is considered to be only half a syllable.’”

 

In the Bhakti-ratnakara it is mentioned that Srinivas Acharya met Krishnadas Kaviraj, Raghunath Das Goswami and Sri Raghava when he arrived in Vrindavan (Bhakti-ratnakara 4.392).

 

On the grounds of Krishnadas Kaviraj’s home in Jhamatpura is a small temple containing Nityananda’s footprints. Local legend has it that Krishna-Das received Nityananda’s mercy, i.e., initiation into the mantra, at this very spot. According to the Prema-vilasa, however, Krishnadas took initiation from Raghunath Das Goswami. In the temple there is a wooden sandal which is said to have been Krishnadas’s. His cottage and samadhi tomb are in Radha Kund. His disappearance took place after that of Raghunath Das Goswami, on the Shukla Dvadashi tithi of the month of Ashvina.

 

Footnotes:

 

[1] Saptagram was made up of seven villages: Saptagram, Vamsibati, Shivapura, Vasudevapura, Nityanandapura and Saìkhanagara. It was the main trade center on the Ganges in Bengal in the 15th and 16th centuries. The modern town of Triveni grew out of Saptagram.

[2] Srila Prabhupada A. C. Bhaktivedanta Svami writes: “When a man takes a dead body to the crematorium, he sometimes thinks, "This is the final end of the body. Why am I working so hard day and night?" Such sentiments naturally arise in the mind of any man who goes to a crematorial ghaöa. However, as soon as he returns from the cremation grounds, he again engages in material activity for sense enjoyment. This is called smasana-vairagya, or markaöa-vairagya.”

 

Excerpted from "Sri Chaitanya: His Life & Associates" by Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaj

 

 

 

<HR>

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

Moderator,

Is there something in your softwear that keeps making edits of posts, and posts themselves jump off the screen and pages change by themselves, or is it part of the bane of cable service and road runner softwear that does this? Or is my computer down with a cold?

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

Moderator,

Is there something in your softwear that keeps making edits of posts, and posts themselves jump off the screen and pages change by themselves, or is it part of the bane of cable service and road runner softwear that does this? Or is my computer down with a cold?

 

I had a problem editing one of my posts. Similar to what you describe. All the text after a particular embedded URL was deleted each time. Finally, I went into HTML-editing mode (there's a button in the upper right-hand corner of the editor) to clean up an unclosed HTML tag.

 

Of course, if you don't know any HTML, this technique is of little help.

 

Dayal Nitai!!

[Guest guest]

 

Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami stands out amongst the devotional literati, for he is the author of the biography of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. He described both Gaura and Govinda’s lila, hearing which even a stone would melt. Alas, even so, my mind has not been attracted by these works. (Prema-bhakti-candrika)...

 

Dear PuruDas, PAMHO!

Thank you so much for these quotes and details on Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita and Shri Krishnadas Kaviraj's background. Thanks for taking the time out.

 

Although, Krishnadas Kaviraj was revealed Lord Chaitanya's pastimes as he mentions in Cc, He also writes about the dialogue of Lord Krsna with Brahma. Lord's Lila and pastimes were "revealed" to him in his heart, and he used the memorised notes of Raghunath Das Goswami too as is mentioned. "His spiritual identity in Vraja lila is Ratnarekha Manjari, or Kasturi Manjari according to 'others'."

And this is accepted without any doubt, in the Gaudiya bhakti lineage.

I also had the priviledge of being at his cottage samadhi at Radha Kunda a few times. And I would love to acquire a copy of Gopal Charitamrita too.

 

Further to this, I have a few more questions:

 

1. Who were these 'others' who established his spiritual identity as Ratnarekha manjari or Kasturi manjari? How did they establish this? Was it established through a vision/revelation or did Krishnadas himself reveal this? Or was it based on his manjari devotional 'mood'

 

2. Why do the Gaudiyas refuse the authenticity of other such revealed scriptures, like Goswami Tulasi Das's 'Ramcharitmanas'??? Iskcon clearly rejects this scripture in its internal GBC policy, that is revered all over India with devotion and Shraddha! Ramcharitmanas was revealed by Lord Rama to Shri Tulasidas after the later had a direct darshan of Hanuman adn Lord Rama and the scripture is endorsed by Rama, Lakshman, Hanuman and Lord Shiva. And nobody doubts its authenticity.

 

3. Why does Iskcon/Gaudiyas reject other scriptures that are as important in other bhakti lineages revealed in a similar way to highly spiritually elevated saints? Why do they reject the revelations and personal experiences of elevated yogis as non-bonafide, but their own sampradaya's revelations only as revelations worth reverence? When told about direct yogic perceptions and revelations, they argue that there is no bonafide evidence to it and only Vedas and SB is bonafide. But still fully accept their own lineage's revelations? Why this discrimination? Why can't we accept saints irrespective of their lineages? Whether they are Vaishnavas, Shaivas or Shaktas?

 

In whatever you wrote/quoted on Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita, it is a wonderful scripture taht revolves around devotional love of the Lord meditating on his pastimes!! And so were the lives of the authors, bhaktas, Gurus related.

I again thank you for sharing this important devotional information on the wonderful lives of the Gaudiya lineage of saints and Goswamis.

 

Hari Om!

YK.

[Guest guest]

 

You didn't ask me, dear Y.K.-ji, but kindly allow me to chime in nonetheless.

 

Going back to my question asking you to cite evidence of Vaishnavas dismissing Shastra as fabricated. My question was a bit pointed. What I really meant was: where is there evidence of great Vaishnava acharyas doing so? My Gurudev certainly does not do so. Rather, he focuses on a very simple definition of religion: that which takes us from a lower position to a higher position.

 

Why don't you show a copy of Shiv Gita and Shiv samhita to your Gurudev or other senior ShriGuru's Godbrother and ask his opinion? What about Ramcharitmanas?? Ask your Gurudev's opinion on Shri Gorakhnath and Vishwamitra and Shri Brahmarishi Vashishtha. The later two Rishis were Gurus of Ramachandra.

 

Further more, Jahnava Nitai Das the editor and administrator of this site clearly rejected Parts of Mahabharata and Shiva Gita (a part of Padma Purana) as fabricated Hindu stuff. Just because Lord Shiva is glorified in it as supreme. This is a real position that I see rampant.

 

 

As you observe, the mood of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad was, at times, combative. One could say, that he was in the mood of *his* Gurudev, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati (and even Bhaktisiddanta respectfully paid obeisances from a distance to one whom he considered to be a "sahajiya"), who has been called the "Lion Guru". While it's dangerous to speculate, one could say that the approach that Prabhupad took in spreading Krishna Nam was tailored to the times in which he came. He had a mountain of false ego to blast through, so, dynamite was appropriate.

Maybe dynamite was important to break through egos of the marijuana sucking hippies, and a few money making false Gurus.

But at times, he seemed to put his dynamite in the wrong place. Like in the case of Ramakrishna Paramahansa who was a great Kali and Krsna devotee of his time. At times it seemed that he was combative with the wrong people or more than necessary. I won't comment about his judgment. I rever him with respect and offer my obeisances to him and respects, but cannot worship him. Just like you cannot worship "demiGods".

Not everybody was a rascal and fool. Not really Rabindranath Tagore, Sri Aurobindo, not Mahatma Gandhi or Anandmayee maa. Nor are the yogis - materialists.

And Sanatana Dharma or as it later came to be known as "Hinduism" is not "hodge-podge garbage!! It may seem hodge podge to lesser accepting people, as it is more accepting and assimilating. Of course every religion has its problems, because human beings have problems.

 

As told by swami Kriyananda in his own words his meeting with SP - "Swami Bhaktivedanta (or Prabhupad, as he became known to his followers) asked Dr. Chaudhuri and me to join his movement, but of course we didn't. He worshiped Krishna as God, and visualized Him literally as he is depicted in poetic allegory: blue-skinned, and playing the flute. Dr. Chaudhuri and I were nonetheless grateful that Swami Bhaktivedanta was bringing Indian devotional chanting to America. This was a wonderful gift.

One evening, the swami said something surprising to me:

"Ramakrishna was a fool!"

"How can you say that?" I asked.

"He was an impersonalist!" Bhaktivedanta used this term to designate someone who believes in God's Infinite Consciousness.

"But," I replied, "he was also personal in his worship. He prayed to the Divine Mother, especially."

"There you have it!" the swami scoffed. "Krishna, not the Divine Mother, is the Supreme Godhead."

"But Sri Ramakrishna also worshiped Krishna," I persisted. Sri Ramakrishna had demonstrated that all spiritual paths lead in the end to God. I was growing worried lest Bhaktivedanta give Hinduism a bad name in America.

"Is that so?" he replied. This too, evidently, was news to him. He paused a moment, then continued his assault: "Anandamayee Ma is a fool!"

"Swamiji, what are you saying?" I demanded.

"She, too, worships the Divine Mother."

"Many times I've chanted Maha Mantra with her!" I exclaimed.

Looking back now, I wonder whether someone hadn't spoken to him about the chapter on cosmic consciousness in Autobiography of a Yogi. Perhaps he'd have liked to denounce Yogananda, also, as an "impersonalist," but didn't want to risk offending me too blatantly..."

 

 

Be that as it may, it is not for anyone to *imitate* the mood of the Acharya. Srila Prabhupad may be able to say who is qualified and who is not, but where is *our* authority?

A disciple, in the process of getting closer and closer to his Guru, is transfered the Guru's energy and mood. Many Prabhupada disciples as I know them, do not like to move one inch or compromise on this combative mood. I'd rather share with them the devotional ecstatic mood rather than the combative one

 

 

I will not deny your experience, Y.K.. I too have seen neophyte (in my own estimation) devotees, in trying to imitate Srila Prabhupada, sounding like brash, braying donkeys, making bitter something which should be so sweet.

I kinda skimmed your discussion with PD and the lengthy quotes. Whether or not it was intended to be applied in this way, I see the quotes as applying universally. I didn't see the inference that *you* are the beginner and the ISKCON devotees are all advanced.

 

Umm.. I have experinced that at times too Murli Mohan das ji. I've experienced people becoming very intolerant of others as they get closer and established in their line of philosophy, unless of course you accept God and religion their specific way only!!!

That just leaves me bowing out of the mat to our limitations.

 

 

As you say, a real Vaishnava is very hard to find. Most of us souls are beginning apirants. As beginners, we must be tolerant, humble and give honor to others. That's how we will make advancement. Offending sincere seekers hurts our own advancement more than anybody else's.

A real vaishnava is hard to find indeed. And Yes you are right about spirituall advancement too.

 

Religious sampradayik intolerence is an off thing!! I believe we should have enough space in our faith to respect other paths (if they lead to realization of the divine presence and clears our relationship with him), while we continue walking on our own.

 

Love,

Yk.

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

 

Dear PuruDas, PAMHO!

Thank you so much for these quotes and details on Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita and Shri Krishnadas Kaviraj's background. Thanks for taking the time out. . . .Further to this, I have a few more questions. . . :.

 

You are most welcome. In Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.5 Srila Suta Gosvami speaks to the sages of Naimasaranya after they have made relevant inquiry and aksed him 6 questions. They had assembled, you can understand, at the Niamasaranya forest to stave off the effects of the impending kali yuga by performing a huge yajna.

 

Srila Suta Gosvami was directly blessed by Lord Balarama, after Lord Balarama killed his envious father Romharsana Suta. Srila Suta Gosvami , who had been present at the earlier recitation of the Bhagavatam when Srila Sukadeva Gosvami recited it to Maharaja Pariksit on the bank of the ganga, said to them:

 

TEXT 5

TEXT

munayah sadhu prsto 'ham

bhavadbhir loka-mangalam

yat krtah krsna-samprasno

yenatma suprasidati

SYNONYMS

munayah--O sages; sadhu--this is relevant; prstah--questioned; aham--myself; bhavadbhih--by all of you; loka--the world; mangalam--welfare; yat--because; krtah--made; krsna--the Personality of Godhead; samprasnah--relevant question; yena--by which; atma--self; suprasidati--completely pleased.

TRANSLATION

O sages, I have been justly questioned by you. Your questions are worthy because they relate to Lord Krsna and so are of relevance to the world's welfare. Only questions of this sort are capable of completely satisfying the self.

PURPORT (by HDGSACBSP)

Since it has been stated hereinbefore that in the Bhagavatam the Absolute Truth is to be known, the questions of the sages of Naimisaranya are proper and just, because they pertain to Krsna, who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Absolute Truth. In Bhagavad-gita (15.15) the Personality of Godhead says that in all the Vedas there is nothing but the urge for searching after Him, Lord Krsna. Thus the questions that pertain to Krsna are the sum and substance of all the Vedic inquiries.

The whole world is full of questions and answers. The birds, beasts and men are all busy in the matter of perpetual questions and answers. In the morning the birds in the nest become busy with questions and answers, and in the evening also the same birds come back and again become busy with questions and answers. The human being, unless he is fast asleep at night, is busy with questions and answers. The businessmen in the market are busy with questions and answers, and so also the lawyers in the court and the students in the schools and colleges. The legislators in the parliament are also busy with questions and answers, and the politicians and the press representatives are all busy with questions and answers. Although they go on making such questions and answers for their whole lives, they are not at all satisfied. Satisfaction of the soul can only be obtained by questions and answers on the subject of Krsna.

Krsna is our most intimate master, friend, father or son and object of conjugal love. Forgetting Krsna, we have created so many objects of questions and answers, but none of them are able to give us complete satisfaction. All things--but Krsna--give temporary satisfaction only, so if we are to have complete satisfaction we must take to the questions and answers about Krsna. We cannot live for a moment without being questioned or without giving answers. Because the Srimad-Bhagavatam deals with questions and answers that are related to Krsna, we can derive the highest satisfaction only by reading and hearing this transcendental literature. One should learn the Srimad-Bhagavatam and make an all-around solution to all problems pertaining to social, political or religious matters. Srimad-Bhagavatam and Krsna are the sum total of all things.

SB 1.2.5

 

ys pda

[Guest guest]

 

Interesting little point for discussion here. It's one thing to point out that avataras do not all come with the full regalia of Lord Vishnu, that is established clearly. But, how can we say that any plenary portion of the Lord is incomplete? Surely, any Avatar of the Lord could, at any time, display His/Her transcendental, Absolute Form in the same fashion that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did on several occasions.

I won't look it up at this moment, but, doesn't Krishna say in Bhagavad Gita that every portion of Himself is full and complete?

Govinda!

 

Isn't that another contradictory part of philosophy Murli Mohan Das ji?

 

What happened to the poor 87 percent only Shiva and little more percent Vishnu?

I believe in what you say. Yes the Lord is capable of manifesting his 100 percent full 'opulence' in any of his forms. And if all the forms belong to the Lord, what's blasphemeous in worshipping Shiva or Durga???

Maybe Lord Shiva can also display his transcendental, absolute form which is complete in itself?!! Or rather let's say Lord Krsna is capable of displaying his absolute form as Shiva (more acceptable variant for G. Vaishnavas)?

Yes interesting little point. PAMHO!

Regards and love,

Hare Krsna!!

YK.

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

 

Dear PuruDas, PAMHO!

. . . I have a few more questions:

 

2. Why do the Gaudiyas refuse the authenticity of other such revealed scriptures, like Goswami Tulasi Das's 'Ramcharitmanas'??? Iskcon clearly rejects this scripture in its internal GBC policy, that is revered all over India with devotion and Shraddha! Ramcharitmanas was revealed by Lord Rama to Shri Tulasidas after the later had a direct darshan of Hanuman adn Lord Rama and the scripture is endorsed by Rama, Lakshman, Hanuman and Lord Shiva. And nobody doubts its authenticity.

 

 

 

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0205/ET05-7309.html

 

this letter from Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja to former Bhakti Vaidurya Madhava Maharaja was an answer to the aforementioned question from yk

ys

pda

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

 

. . ., I have a few more questions:

3. Why does Iskcon/Gaudiyas reject other scriptures that are as important in other bhakti lineages revealed in a similar way to highly spiritually elevated saints? Why do they reject the revelations and personal experiences of elevated yogis as non-bonafide, but their own sampradaya's revelations only as revelations worth reverence? When told about direct yogic perceptions and revelations, they argue that there is no bonafide evidence to it and only Vedas and SB is bonafide. But still fully accept their own lineage's revelations? Why this discrimination? Why can't we accept saints irrespective of their lineages? Whether they are Vaishnavas, Shaivas or Shaktas?

 

 

If you really want do know why iskcon and its gbc does or doesn't do anything you will have to ask them. I disaffiliated from them in l998 and have written many articles on the net as to why I thought they have acted on any particular issue.

http://www.vnn.org/authors/puru.html

However I can point you to a very superlative article in the most recent Rays of the Harmonist #16. You can access it here:

http://bvml.org/books/journals/roth/index.html

You will have to download the pdf file:

http://bvml.org/books/journals/roth/16(kartik2006).pdf

 

and then go to pp. 36-38 to read an article by Sri Srimad Bhakti Srirupa Siddhanti Gosvami Maharaja, titled,

"Selected Nectarean Advice."

In this extremely realized and perceptive article he discusses in great detail what happens in any mission when its founder-acarya departs, e.g. (for example how:

 

"Only at the time of Sri Gurudeva's disappearance can one recognize the actual identity of his disciples. One can then understand who has approached Sri Guru with what intention."

 

I strongly suggest you examine this article. Also in the same issue are at least two other articles with very illuminating information about Sri Rupa Siddhanti Maharaja. You can also read about him on my site here:

http://bvml.org/SBSSM/index.html

 

The very embodiment of bhakti, Sri Srimad Bhakti Sri-rupa Siddhanti Gosvami Maharaja was one of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsvati Prabhupada’s foremost disciples. As Siddha-svarupa Brahmacari, he once created an uproar in an assembly of followers of Vivekananda and Ramakrsna by exposing them as charlatans, inducing the people to assail him with slogans and stones. His Godbrothers reported this disturbance in their preaching to Srila Prabhupada but, to their surprise, he was thrilled to hear of such fearless and uncompromising preaching of the truth. Srila Prabhupada then himself came to that town and called for another assembly. He now called upon Siddha-svarupa Brahmacari to defeat the philosophy of Vivekananda, which he did, point for point. This time the people lauded him.

Srila Bhakti Sri-rupa Siddhanti Gosvami Maharaja was very close with his Godbrother Srila Bhakti Viveka Bharati Maharaja, whom he honoured as his siksa guru. After Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance, they jointly founded the Sri Sarasvata Gaudiya Ashram & Mission, which has three branches. He initiated seven sannyasi disciples.

Srila Bhkati Sri-rupa Siddhanti Gosvami Maharaja worked tirelessly in the service of his Gurudeva, and this is reflected in his outstanding literary contribution. He published and wrote many important books, Guru Prestha being one of them, and others which were out of print for a long time. By translating Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana Prabhu’s Sri Govinda-bhasya into Bengali, he satisfied one of his Gurudeva’s unfulfilled inner desires.

He also wrote commentaries on the twelve principle Upanisads, and translated Srila Bhaladeva Vidyabhusana’s and Srila Visvanatha Chakravartipada’s Sanskrit commentaries on Bhagavad-gita, for which the Gaudiya Vaisnava community remains deeply indebted He also constructed three elaborately decorated temples with permanent theistic exhibitions incorporated into the sculptures of the entire temple.

Gaudiya Saraswata Ashram is the name of the amazing temple located north of Haridas Thakur's samadhi on Satasan Road, in Jagannatha Puri, Orissa. This temple, is very popular. It has beautiful diaromas covering virtually every inch of the temple, grounds and inside of the boundary wall. The deity worship is very nice here. The temple has nice Radha Krishna deities, many Salagram silas and a Shiva linga on an altar behind Radha Krishna. Srila Siddhanti Maharaja wrote commentaries on several Upanishads which are sold here at the temple. This temple also has nice discourses on the Bhagavat that are attended by many pilgrims.

[Puru Das, das anudas 0]

 

3. Why does Iskcon/Gaudiyas reject other scriptures that are as important in other bhakti lineages revealed in a similar way to highly spiritually elevated saints? Why do they reject the revelations and personal experiences of elevated yogis as non-bonafide, but their own sampradaya's revelations only as revelations worth reverence? When told about direct yogic perceptions and revelations, they argue that there is no bonafide evidence to it and only Vedas and SB is bonafide. But still fully accept their own lineage's revelations? Why this discrimination? Why can't we accept saints irrespective of their lineages? Whether they are Vaishnavas, Shaivas or Shaktas? . . . .

 

This information from Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja's letter also addresses to some extent, your question:

 

 

". . . Although we are substantiating the authority of Tulasi Ramayana, the question may be asked why we don't regard it on the same level as the Gaudiya Vaisnava literature. The reason for this is that although, according to Vaisnava siddhanta, it is accepted as bhakti scripture in a routine sense, it does not present a complete description of raganuga (or rupanuga) rasamayi bhakti. In a similar fashion, the Visnu Purana and other sastras do not propound krsna-bhakti-rasa, although they are certainly bhakti scriptures. Therefore we accept Srimad-Bhagavatam and the books of Sri Rupa, Sanatana and other Gosvamis as being the most authoritative and efficacious for us. . . .

I have personally read and studied the Rama-carita-manasa in Hindi, in its entirety, at least ten times. May I ask how many times you have read Tulasi's original Ramayana with scrutiny? I am well acquainted with the conclusions of Vaisnava sastra and have been associating with pure Vaisnavas for a long time. My own conclusions, and the conclusions of other respected Vaisnavas in our line, is that there is no trace of mayavada anywhere in the original work of the Tulasi Ramayana. As I am travelling now, I do not have access to that book; but upon consulting it, I can surely provide you with concrete evidence from the direct statements of the book to support my position. . ."