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The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Fall From Goloka

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The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Fall From Goloka

 

 

 

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1> of<st1> Krishna</st1></st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

In a comparable way, whens ones dreams or thoughts are not <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s.

There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1><st1>Krishna</st1></st1:place>.

To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

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Since this issue has generated much debate, it needs some direct evidence from canonical literature i.e. either the literature from Gosvamis or vedic scriptures. It is a waste of breath to show the inherent logical contradictions in it and this final proof is particularly amusing for lack of any evidence.

 

Hare Krishna

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Srila Prabhupada also said some scriptual points are important to understandI found the following on the net

 

 

If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism.

 

 

 

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>One must study Srila Prabhupadas’ books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books, referring mostly to Impersonalists, Buddhists, materialists and mundane religionists.The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters are all as equal as each other. Why wouldn’t they be so? Srila Prabhupada warned us to not dwell too much of why and how we are here, but to get out.

On many occasions he has said that our existence in the material world is so long that it seems we have come from tatastha, then throws his transcendental vision in the arena by saying that before that we also existed in another creation of matter and before that, and before that, and before that – how far can we go back? And he finishes by saying, before that even, we were with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

 

 

 

 

1. The time factor of past present and future exists in the mahat-tattva, a place of divided time that has the effect of decay and impermanence.

 

 

 

 

2. The impersonal characteristic of ones consciousness is called the jiva-tatastha conscious state that is devoid of past, present and future. The jiva-sakti consciousness is suspended in a dreamless timeless existence we call tatatasha, but even that conscious state is temporary due to the inherent active nature of one consciousness that originates from ones perpetual rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

 

 

 

3. The goloka-Vrndavan realm on the other hand is fully active in a way where there is no past or future as the Brahma-samhita tells us, there is only the perpetual present, and so everything has always been there and will always be there. Our svarupa body has always been there.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations of those writings that he personally encouraged us to pursue, and not mental speculation nor the dry institutionalized self-righteous parrot quoting of scriptures. we must understand what we are doing for Lord Chaitanya and why, although there is even great benefit in being told what to do under the correct guidance. We musat uderstand that the method of deliverance in Kali-yuga is the congregational chanting of Hare Krishna and distributing Srila Prabhupadas books EVERTHING ELSE IS SECONDARY, including the over emphasis of on Vedic retuals and even Diety worship if nessessary. 'Sell the Temples and print books if you have too" Srila Prabhupadas Spiritual Master once told him. Fortunately we live in a rich society where both can be done but Sankrirtan including book distribution s the bases of Srila Prabhupadas Lord Chaitanya movement.

The story of the humble simple minded sudra cobbler and the arrogant puffed up brahmana jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith and total dependence to the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

There is one clear overwhelming point the 'tatastha origin buddies' don't seem to understand, and that is Srila Prabhupada has said our origins are from Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”.

Srila Prabhupada “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious dreams are characterized as being fallen from our position in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha"

Srila Prabhupada explains clearly that in reality we are not fallen, our rasa body actually goes nowhere and is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because we are simply in a dreaming condition’.

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious entities . . ."

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”.

 

 

 

 

These comments Srila Srabhupada has said and no amount of word jugglery or denial we will change these facts.

 

 

 

 

A bonafide disciple of Sila Prabhupada understands this because such a devotee or grand disciple bases all the Vedas on Srila Prabhpadas books, interviews, classes, letters and morning walks tapes. He or She sees the entire Vedas and their true meanings through such teachings Srila Prabhupada has given us.

 

 

 

 

As devotees of Srila Prabhupada we are not interested in what other Gaudiya groups say or believe because His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the present bonafide representative of His Spiritual Master. We understand Vedanta through his books only, even if we do read other Vedic texts.

 

 

 

 

I believe you and I and everyone else on this website would not know anything about <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> if it was not for Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

 

 

Your servant Vaikunthapati das. Hare Krishna

 

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The mahat-tattva material manifestation of Maha-Vishnu

 

The ethereal and biological costumes (bodies) always belong to the rental agent, Maha-Vishnu and His wife Maya Devi. Such costumes follow His script or design that simultaneously meets the desires and requirements of each of the jiva-bhutah consciousnesses visiting from their original bodily source and place of servitude in the perpetual Spiritual Sky, which is outside the mahat-tattva or confines of the restricted material universe.

 

For the inhabitants of the Vaikuntha's planets, the mahat-tattva is an unnatural phenomenon.

 

For the jiva consciousness trapped in the perishable mahat-tattva in ethereal or biological bodies, it is hard for them to understand the concept of an imperishable universe where only the present exists beyond time, past and future that is where their consciousness originate from.

For those inhabitants in the Vaikuntha's, it is therefore possible to see past, present and future within the mahat-tattva all at once, where as from the perspective within the mahat-tattva, unless one is a great devotee who Krishna allows to view the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, from outside His dreams of the material manifestation, (and outside the confines of ethereal and biological vehicals) yet still within the boundaries of the mahat-tattva, then viewing past, present and future within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu is not possible.

 

 

 

The Impersonalists foolishly believe the mahat-tattva is the complete creation and nothing else exists; they can neither view nor experience the existence of the vast Vaikuntha real outside the mahat-tattva that takes up the majority of creation and encircles the insignificant mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

 

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Why is this so difficult for so many to understand? Simple answer, they all think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and the chanting of Hare Krishna. I personally heard Srila Prabhupada describe what follows and I suggest the below should be read again and again to understand the true facts of creation and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srila Prabhupada the Jagat Guru .

 

 

The Material Dream that is real but temporary and exists in one corner of the Spiritual Sky and is called the mahat-tattva

 

 

GarbaVishnu.jpg

 

 

No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget Krishna as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples

 

 

 

prabhupada.jpg?t=1178452815

 

 

 

 

 

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Consciousness.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

 

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

Srila Prabhupada So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Bhativinode Thakur “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada-Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world.But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.

 

In this dreaming stateafter we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation , we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

 

These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

 

 

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

 

 

This separate extention of the nitya siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada:Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!

He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?”

But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation.

He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness.

Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.”

All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

 

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva.

He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen.

We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”.

Srila Prabhupada makes the point “We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me.

You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”.

 

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious conditioned phenomenon, or dream given fascility by th dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada continues“Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming.

 

 

Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. consciousness. As soon as we understand that “

When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming”

Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities."

Srila Prabhupada - "Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

 

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, but on the absolute level and not the mundane biological level, ones thoughts and dreams are as real as ones actions, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form. Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupadais the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because -

 

 

Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

 

The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith DEVOTIONAL SERVICE, congregational chanting of Hare Krishna and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna. I personally heard Srila Prabhupada describe what is above and I suggest the above is should read again and again to understand and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srlia Prabhupada .

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The dreaming Maha-Vishna is where ones Secondary non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha life force or jiva-s'akti) goes and becomes known as the 'conditioned state' when one chooses to leave Goloka however, ones nitya-siddha svarupa body always remains in Goloka.

 

 

 

Why would anyone, in fact trillions of jiva’s choose to leave Goloka?

 

 

 

 

Question - It does not make sense to me in my present stage of spiritual development, which I can understand is very primitive to being born in a meat eating Godless society, that the jiva-tattva’s are continuously falling from Goloka, I look around me and can understand that billions of embodied jiva’s have taken shelter in a material bodily from the amoebas to aquatic, plant, birds, animals, human, ghosts, demigods etc. Why would anyone, in fact trillions upon trillions of jiva’s leave <ST1:PKrishna? From my understanding could it be possible the jiva originates from tatastha or even both, that some do fall down while others are born out of tatastha?

 

Answer Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita as it isthat the jivas have no beginning or end, so they certainly did not originate from tatastha condition because there was never a time the life force (jiva-s’akti or jiva-tattva) did not exist, nor in the future will such living consciousness cease to be as the Gita tells us. Srila Prabhupada has told us “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

 

<O:PSrila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

 

<O:PSrila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <ST1:PKrishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

 

The fact is only the jiva consciousness is transmitted out of Goloka and not ones foremost Spiritual nitya-siddha body. Srila Prabhupada has said “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

 

 

<O:PSrila Prabhupada makes it very clear– “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going".

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

 

 

 

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<O:PSrila Prabhupada clearly emphasizes the fact– “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

 

<O:PQuestion– Before you answer why so many jiva consciousnesses choose to forget their nitya-siddha body serving Krishna and come to the material creation, if there was no beginning to the jiva, why do so many caste Vaishnava Brahmana guru’s and big, big Gaudiya swamis arrogantly and persistently claim they originated from tatastha when the Gita tells us there is no origin or beginning point of life?

 

<O:PAnswer – India is full of gurus and caste brahmanas, unfortunately many of them are Gaudiya Vaisnavas, who mostly read only speculated translations of previous Acharayas and Vedic texts with their English version of interpretation of those texts that has been subtly influence by Impersonalism over hundreds of years undermining Krishna’s Personal creation of marginal persons, claiming they believe and can prove their nonsense impersonal tatastha origins of the jiva-consciousness. We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that Krishna's creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas have all become polluted with Impersonalism and deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation.

 

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that Krishna Conscious bodily form.

 

<O:PAll impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha condition of marginal fallen consciousness which is the lower self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha self as already explained. Krishna’s creation has always been which means He is always an eternal bodily person and so are all His marginal effulgent emanations of subsidiary beings.

 

 

 

This understanding is the basic difference between a Personalist and an Impersonalist

 

 

 

 

This understanding is the basic difference between a personalist and an Impersonalist although there are far worse impersonal conditions were one denies Krishna altogether and argue that from the Brahmajyoti is where we originally came from, and to the Brahmajyoti we will return.

 

 

<O:PRegrettably their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is Impersonal instead of understanding all our origins are personal. The Impersonalists, Buddhists and Vaishnavas who believe in the impersonal origins of the jiva, cannot understand that on the top most platform of transcendental Knowledge, the entire creation steams from personalism, it is all personal, the original appearance of the jiva or atma is sat-cit-ananda-vigraha that we further call the nitya-siddha-svarupa. Ones consciousness however can fall to an Impersonal condition but they certainly do not originate fro it. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a bye product or manifestation created by Krishna, yet exhibited by HIS marginal vigraha devotees via their secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that firsts manifests in the mahat-tattva, then after many births and deaths, find liberation from that material frustrating condition in the Impersonal dormant aspect of their consciousness (that is also Krishna’s marginal force or jiva-s’akti/s) we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

<O:PIn a nut shell and the simplest way possible in explaining what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and tatastha is, is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the dormant condition of the nitya-siddhas secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha consciousness that vibrates between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva in the over-all Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. The Brahmajyoti is created by the Krishna via His marginal nitya-siddhas when they manifest their secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha restricted consciousness.

 

Firstly try to understand that tatastha and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a dormant conscious condition of the nitya-baddha lower non-Krishna conscious self (jiva-tattva or a secondary (conditioned) extension of Krishna’s marginal energy radiating ultimately from His Supreme Vigraha body), or secondary (conditioned) consciousness that primarily expanded out of their perpetual individual nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha due to choice and nothing else because Maha-Maya cannot exist in Vaikuntha. This secondary consciousness (conditioned by ones choices, thoughts, dreams and desires) is then transferred by Yoga-Maya out of Vaikuntha to the mahat-tattva cloud, then placed under the jurisdiction of Maha-Maya, the wife of the facilitator and creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

 

<O:PMany of us have possibly come and gone to that tatastha condition of our own consciousness on many, many occasions. Therefore it is clear that none of us in this room or the entire creation originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which is not possible because our tatastha conscious condition is only a transitional conscious state of the life force.

 

<O:PSrila Prabhupada says that the existence in the brahmajyoti, merging together with other individual jiva-tatasthas, without loss of individuality, is ultimately just another form of conditioned life or dreaming.

 

Sri Isopanisad explains that the extended secondary dreaming jiva-tattva consciousness is always appealing to Krishna to uncover their real authentic transcendental conscious identity and bodily source in Goloka and remove the veil of the restricted bodily containers in the mahat-tattva as well as the mundane Brahman tatastha consciousness or impersonal Brahmajyoti realization or ‘break away freedom from the mahat-tattva’ and reveal to them it is all (both entrapments in the mahat-tattva and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti) are both a dream and the result of an extended conscious condition caused by ones non-Krishna Conscious desires, thoughts and dreams. In this way ones secondary conscious condition trapped in mahat-tattva consciousness or tatastha consciousness does not see its full potential and true beautiful eternally youthful devotional Krishna Conscious bodily real authentic identity, which is the source of their secondary conscious existence. This is because of ones self centered desires for adoration, fame and wealth they have chosen to pursue.

 

Many Impersonalist yogis, Jains, Buddhists and even many Vaishnava traditions, including many Gaudiya Vishnavas, cannot understand that it is their mundane secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that exists in this material creation that was originally projected or transmitted from their perpetual rasa body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha incessant portion of the Spiritual Sky that enters the mahat-tattva and then, after billions of births, only then can manifests AS a spark of consciousness ONLY in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as confirmed by Jiva Gosvami.

 

 

 

Why do so many jiva’s fall from Goloka to the mahat-tattva?

 

 

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Now to answer your question of why so, so many trillions upon trillion of nitya-siddha-svarupa’s choose to activate their lower self or secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, that is simply answered.

 

 

 

<O:PIt is clear in shastra that 25% of the marginal vigrahas (not as their nitya-siddha bodies) do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud simple because of choice which numbers are enormous and in the trillions and trillions as we see arond us, however, it must be made clear that only 25% of nitya-siddhas' choose to make that secondary conscious plunge, not as their nitya-siddha bodily form, but as the shadow of their perpetual body called the nitya baddha, as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us, most never come to the mahat-tattva creation of Lord Vishnu.

 

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<SUP>st</SUP> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of Krishna's marginal emanations.

 

 

 

 

Yet remember it is only 25% of creation who‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva in their dream state nitya-baddha lower consciousness. This means 25% of all marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees activate their secondary non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha dream condition and enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva (Temporary material manifestation), but never as their perpetual svarupa vigraha bodily form that always remains in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

 

 

 

 

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

 

 

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the perpetual <ST1>Kingdom of<ST1> Krishna</ST1> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

 

 

 

It is because of the many meanings of Sanskrit words (170 meanings to the word jiva) and the many analogies used by Vaishnava scholars, (like the sun and the sunrays) many have misunderstood and have either given improper translations into many languages around the world, or who have taken analogies like the sun and the sun rays literally. Was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, the Spiritual Master of His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, trying to explain that the living being was originally tossed down from the effulgent advaya light, but upgrading his followers' conditioning by adding the term "Vaikuntha" into this compound? Or, rather, was he trying to restructure the hardened conditioning of his scholastic well-wishers and even some of his devotees (who had become affected by the widespread interpretations of Impersonal origins prevalent at the time) by throwing in the term "advaya" to the compound advaya-vaikuntha. This is an unclear quote, and you can see how subtle the debate gets when these kinds of quotations are referenced.

 

 

 

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is therefore a manifestation of the secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees in Goloka as already clearly explained. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a phenomenon created by nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha perpetual body and simultaneously facilitated by the sleeping Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva cloud. As such, Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha in the perpetual aspect of the Spiritual Sky is one and the same with the Brahmajyoti because the entire creation is the Brahmajyoti or the Brahman effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna.

 

 

 

In the Brahmajyoti, there exists all the Vaikuntha planets and Krishnas’ personified marginal devotees known as the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees (they are the living personified vigrahas or Brahman effulgence in its highest understanding).

 

 

 

Also in the Brahmajyoti there exists the mahat-tattva where the marginal vigraha devotees in Vaikuntha radiate from there being a secondary version of themselves that is only manifested when they choose to disrupt the perfect Krishna Conscious atmosphere of Vaikuntha. When they choose to do so, they are transferred by Yoga-Maya to Maha-Maya in the Mahat-tattva cloud in the Brahmajyoti and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Only there does Krishna allow His marginal created beings to do as they please and face the consequences however, they can never enter the mahat-tattva in their nitya-siddha-svarupa body, that is not possible, therefore their entry into the mahat-tattva is compared to a dreaming consciousness or the shadow of who they really are.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada, from his Bhagavad gita introduction -"Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but WE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR eternal relationship with the Lord.

 

 

 

Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one's constitutional position".

 

 

 

<O:PNote, the life force is also known as the jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva, jiva-prakrita, jiva-nikaya, jiva-tatastha that are all various stages of dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha dreaming condition) that is projected outside of the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha from ones perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body in the Spiritual Sky and into the impermanent mahat-tattva cloud that is in one corner of that same Spiritual Sky. The dreamless tatastha conscious dreamless condition of the jiva-tattva is situated between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva cloud and is known as the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. Such a dreamless conscious stat, like the mahat-tattva, is not permanent due to the inherent trait of eternal activity the lower conscious tatastha consciousness inherits from it nitya-siddha full consciousness or real genuine perpetual bodily self.

 

 

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Above is the great dreaming Maha-Vishnu expansion of Lord Balarama who lays in the causal ocean supported by Ananta Sesa and holds within His dreams all the mistaken dreams of the nitya-siddhas while as their nitya baddha conditioned sub-conscious dreaming state or lower self.

Also from time to time Maha-Vishnu holds within His dreams the direct Vrndavana pastimes of Lord Chaitanya and Krishna as well as their transcendental entourage that is a carbon copy of the past times in the Goloka-Vrndavana centre of creation outside of the temporary mahat-tattva and beyond the surrounding perpetual Vaikunthas.

Unlimited other expansions of Krishna and many of His great nitya-siddha devotees also appear from time to time within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, to continually invite the nitya-baddhas (conditioned souls) back home back to Godhead, so they can again wake back up from their limited, temporary and restricted dreams within the mahat-tattva dream cloud of Maha-Vishnu in one corner of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way such lost souls can again re-enter the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky as their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body that is eternally and lovingly serving beautiful Krishna.<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]-->

 

 

We see that 75% of creation is the Goloka-Vrndavan/Vaikutha realm and 25% is the material or maha-tattva creation, in other words 25% of the nitya-siddhas have chosen to activate their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness or dreaming life force (jiva-sakti) and enter the impermanent dreams of Maha-Vishnu in a sub-conscious dreaming state (nitya-baddha) due to their non-Krishna conscious desires.

It is therefore clear that 25% of the marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud (not as their perpetual svarupa body but as their sub-conscious mistaken dreams) which numbers are enormous yet only 25% choose to make that conscious nitya-baddha plunge as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us as shown in the painting above.

 

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<sup>st</sup> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of Krishna’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form.

 

 

 

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

 

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the Kingdom of Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

 

This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

 

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode. This Krishna Conscious Vigraha self is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are ‘consciously’ unaware of that unending reality.

 

This is due to our forgetfulness and dreaming non-Krishna conscious fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary), that transmits ‘the self interested thoughts one wants created’, to the the mahat-tattva (material universe).

 

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

 

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level dreaming; ones non-Krishna conscious thoughts or dreams (nitya-baddha lower consciousness) are as real as their perpetual nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva and are therefore temporary.

 

 

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non Krishna Conscious desires cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

 

 

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with Krishna. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires.

 

 

Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

 

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

 

 

 

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

 

 

 

 

The nitya-siddha devotee's and their secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, (when the latter is activated), are both the divided (Personal and Impersonal) marginal emanations perpetually surrounding Krishnas Supreme Vigraha form that makes Krishna the complete whole or the entire creation.

 

 

"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

 

 

The Supreme Lord has two energies, material (mahat-tattva cloud) and spiritual (the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm where Krishna and His marginal nitya-siddha devotees serve). The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, ones consciousness may be under the spell of the inanimate material energy (the mahat-tattva) under the control of Maha-Vishnu and Maha-Maya or the devotional Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky under the control of Krishnas internal Yoga-Maya.

 

 

 

 

"The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter (ethereal and biological bodies), and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature (atma-vigraha perpetual self). Therefore, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

 

 

"The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and because he has this tendency, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 .

 

 

 

So, marginal energy is not a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the nature of the jiva-atma-vigraha. It refers to a living being with the character of independently choosing between Krishnas two Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva. Therefore, the living beings do not expand from their jiva-tatastha aspect of marginal consciousness. This marginal energy (niya-siddha’s higher and nitya baddha lower expression of consciousness) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living beings.

 

 

 

 

If marginal beings (the living entity with its independent nature, original rasa body and the ability to extend its life force jiva-sakti sub-consciously out of that rasa body) choose to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

 

 

 

 

If the marginal living beings as their secondary conscious extention that finds shelter in the mahat-tattva, eventually chooses, after many, many births in the mahat-tattva, decides to go back home, back to Godhead (Goloka), on return, one will still find they have their marginal independence even as their full potential perpetual nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body.

 

 

Returning back to Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha does not change ones individual marginal position into internal energy (cit-sakti) and become Vishnu-tattva-Vigraha. Although the nitya-siddhas are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual or a place where nothing other than living vigrahas exist serving Krishna the Supreme Vigraha), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence.

 

 

Marginal nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees can choose to live seperately within their nitya-baddha sub-conscious dreams that are extended as the jiva-sakti and called the nitya-baddha dreaming conscious extention, this is a secondary transformation of Krishna's marginal personalities and is the cause of the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is simple the transformation of marginal individual consciousness, this is an important point to understand.

 

 

The nitya-siddha body is serving Krishna eternally and can never leave Goloka, yet from time to time, due to choice, may enter into a dreaming sub-conscious lower self nitya-baddha condition that can only exist within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the maha-tattva or within the non-dream tatastha condition we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is simple a further transformation of marginal individual nitya-baddha consciousnesses into an inactive state after going through the mahat-tattva, this is an important point to understand.

 

 

Ones awareness of their surroundings can be situated either in the external mahat-tattva as their non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha consciousness, or remain in the internal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Kingdom of God as their full conscious nitya-siddha bodily self.

 

 

One can choose to be as their Krishna Conscious perpetual body or float away to the mahat-tattva in non-Krishna conscious dreams as their nitya-baddha jiva-sakti consciousness. In this way, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal consciousness can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal consciousness (because of ones free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal consciousness therefore those who believe they cannot fall ‘consciously’ from Vaikuntha are deluding themselves and misleading their followers.

 

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The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Fall From Goloka

 

 

 

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1> of<st1> Krishna</st1></st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

In a comparable way, whens ones dreams or thoughts are not <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s.

There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1><st1>Krishna</st1></st1:place>.

To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body).

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

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