Seeing Yama

[theist]

Happy to be numbered amongst your friends brother soul.

 

 

I do feel as consciousness develops we need to spiritualize our whole self. In the conditioned state we can have very subtle mental states, awareness, and visions. etc....and these are a real phenomenon...but I would rather have vision of GaurangaKrsna everywhere...to be able to go to Sri Navadwipa Dhama and see the reality. So subtle mind states may be fun for a while....but still they are a cause of bondage....the key is to spiritualize everything whilst at the same time realizing I am not this body..I am not this mind. In fact anything without relation to Krsna is maya.

Good to see you make the distinction. Most people who have them consider it a spiritual experience. Of course that it could be also depending on who you interact with. We may not be acting on the spiritual plane during such a journey by that does not preclude the spiritulized living entities who we may encounter from acting on the spiritual plane towards us. There are afterall Vishnuduttas as well as Yamadhutas.

[bija]

That is a real devil dog isn't it.

 

 

All such descent of the world starts on the subtle mental platform and then gradually makes it's presence known in gross material society. quote by theist

 

Maybe the diverse hellish planets out there are all creations of our subtle sphere. This consciousness thing is full on......pure consciousness must be a wonderful thing....Navadwipa Dham Jaya!

[bija]

 

Good to see you make the distinction. Most people who have them consider it a spiritual experience. Of course that it could be also depending on who you interact with. We may not be acting on the spiritual plane during such a journey by that does not preclude the spiritulized living entities who we may encounter from acting on the spiritual plane towards us. There are afterall Vishnuduttas as well as Yamadhutas. quote by Theist

 

Yes this is exactly how I feel about it all. But can you just imagine that happy day....when the reality of being manifests. That will be the best elevator ride ever.

[Ayodhya]

What do you think the purpose of NDE's is?

And why doesn't it happen to all people?

 

All this talk of Bhakti and Jnana is fruitless. Life isn't so black and white and people rarely act as such.

[theist]

 

That is a real devil dog isn't it.

 

 

 

Maybe the diverse hellish planets out there are all creations of our subtle sphere. This consciousness thing is full on......pure consciousness must be a wonderful thing....Navadwipa Dham Jaya!

 

Everything in the grossest portion of the material universe is a manifestation of someones desires and karma. It's just as it was in the beginning. Brahma offered forms and position to all living entities as we manifested in/as that Golden Lotus Stem composed of the desires that we took with us into the slumber between manifestations.

 

The only reason there are material universes at all is due to the misdirected subtle desires of we fallen living beings.

[bija]

 

What do you think the purpose of NDE's is? quote Ayodhya

What do you think Ayodhya?

 

It is a difficult question, kind of like asking what is the meaning of life. I guess we can only answer from personal realization and faith.

 

Personally I was a fairly ignorant young man...and directly after the NDE I saw the whole world in a new light. I collapsed and experienced fluctuating health for years after this. So it was great mercy. A real, what's that word...is it catharsis? A type of catharsis.

 

I began to question the nature of suffering much more and over the years have been seeking spiritual life more. So that ignorant young man gradually is becoming less and less of a reality.

 

So to answer your question....growth.

[Ayodhya]

Growth was what I had in mind, bija.

 

I have another random question relating to life after death.

Do we go to both Hell and Heaven as a result of Karma before we are reborn, or is it just Heaven, or what (let us assume this is not an Enlightened soul)?

[bija]

 

Growth was what I had in mind, bija. quote by Ayodhya

I had an idea this was what you thought. That is why I have given an answer in a personal way.

Why don't all people have them?

Even some very balanced deeply spiritual people have them for further growth. Growth is unlimited as is the nature of love of God. Why don't all people have them? I would only be guessing if I gave an answer to that question.

 

I feel personally that sometimes we as humans are like a living organism, that is designed in a certain way, to develop and grow, and strive for full potential. Things

like NDE's may be a way to unblock blocks, you might say. Same goes with some illness also where the outcome is positive, changing our whole perspective on life.

 

I hope this answers your queries in some way.

 

 

I have another random question relating to life after death.

Do we go to both Hell and Heaven as a result of Karma before we are reborn, or is it just Heaven, or what (let us assume this is not an Enlightened soul)? quote by Ayodhya

 

What do you think happens?

[Sephiroth]

Hmm ... what's with the sudden interest in Yama raja, I wonder?

 

I have seen more movie, Animes and Manga (Japanese Comics) on Yama-like being in the past one year (Buddhist in Japan calls Yama Enma and considered one of the Buddhist Dieties). Lastest movie based on Death is Death Note (just came out in Malaysia November 9).

 

Anyway ... my opinion - People don't fear Death. What they see and fear is their own Sins which takes form when they approach Death. Merit and Sins are only two things which really accompanies a Person.

[Sridas]

. When we can disconnect from all phases of perceptual experience, we can live in faith alone. When all the wealth of our experience deceives us and makes treachery with us, our faith will save us.

The whole world of our experience will vanish one day with the final wholesale dissolution.

 

janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha- dosanudarsanam Bg. 13.9.

 

But faith will remain, faithfully attending us, that is the innate thing with our soul. And with the wholesale dissolution of our body, mind and senses, the whole world of our experience will go where? No one knows. The sun, the moon, the ether, the air, everything will vanish in wholesale dissolution. Only faith will live, even at that stage. Faith is eternal substance within us and we are told that with the favorable circumstances of faith we can go back to God, back home. Back to home sweet home! Such highest prospect is given to us who are in this world of mortality, which is a burial and cremation ground. Here everything is bound to be buried.

“The boast of heraldry, the pomp of power,

All that beauty, all that wealth e’re gave,

Awaits like the inevitable hour;

The paths of glory lead but to the grave.”

- Gray’s Elegy

 

This is the world of experience, everything leads but to the grave. But faith is not treacherous, it will remain within, with the soul and grant hope, prospect and sustenance. And what kind of sustenance? Home comfort. When there is the proposal of such an alternative, who would be such a fool to run after the experiences of this so called ‘civilized’ atomic world? Sense experience and material science are all merely the jaws of death. Srila BRSM

[bija]

 

I have another random question relating to life after death.

Do we go to both Hell and Heaven as a result of Karma before we are reborn, or is it just Heaven, or what (let us assume this is not an Enlightened soul)? quote by Ayodhya

Ayodhya, I have given your question some more thought. I am happy to share a little if I can.

 

Could you clarify your question more. Are you talking about the intermediate stage before next birth?

 

It is very common in some circles today to hear people say that there is no such thing as hell...just heaven. I am not so sure on this way of thinking. I perceive more that, what mind culture we have developed will manifest in the next birth. In a more physical dimension. So really these things are of our own choice. Supplied by the energy of God.

 

I have also edited my post #33 with a clearer response and more thoughts.

[Ayodhya]

 

Are you talking about the intermediate stage before next birth?

 

Yes.

 

Thanks for the additional information, but what do you think specifically about the stages between the next birth?

 

On another note about Heaven and Hell:

There are a few assumptions that I think should be made clear.

 

To me, it seems irrational for one to believe in Heaven and not believe in Hell. A good father still loves his children but chastises them to remind them of what they've done wrong.

 

Even if one does not specifically believe in some physical plane of supreme happiness or celestial planets, good and bad things continue to happen. Even if one does not believe in celestial planets or a burning pit of fire, our good and bad karma creates Heaven and Hell on Earth.

 

Regardless, we feel the consequences (good or bad) of whatever we do here on Earth.

[theist]

Hell is also visible today on this planet. Animal life is a type of hell. Wars are hell. To think that such and worse cannot exists in a subtle realm is silly. It is usually thought like this by the same crowd that while accepting reincarnation believe every birth we are automatically advancing.

[bija]

 

To me, it seems irrational for one to believe in Heaven and not believe in Hell. A good father still loves his children but chastises them to remind them of what they've done wrong. quote by Ayodhya

This is correct. At the time of chastising we may not understand. But when the child goes away and thinks and matures his reasoning, he can begin to understand why.

 

I think the intermediate stage of ghastliness, appears very real. But in reality can be passed through without hurt. If one can see the temporary nature of the mind and body. As you are an impersonalist you may call such phenomenon by the term false. But as a Vaisnava we call this phenomenon by the term temporary. Because when you hurt, you really hurt. Try telling someone with broken arm this is false. But I guess illusion would be an applicable term to both philosophies. So illusion cannot harm the soul.

 

Ofcourse I still do not fully understand this law of karma. Because there seems to be so much suffering in this world. Recently I saw on tv a small african child with skin and bones suffering greatly. How do we explain this? My heart felt like crying upon seeing this. Is this why?

[Ayodhya]

 

Ofcourse I still do not fully understand this law of karma. Because there seems to be so much suffering in this world. Recently I saw on tv a small african child with skin and bones suffering greatly. How do we explain this? My heart felt like crying upon seeing this. Is this why?

 

I would go so far as to say that no theological system on the planet has a sure-fire way of justifying all the suffering in the world, especially that of innocents.

[bija]

So Ayodhya,I feel it is really essential to adopt a spiritual practice where we can develop pure realization, that we are not this mind/body.

 

Sadly in the tradition I was born, this consciousness was not so clearly taught as is in some eastern traditions. I am sure the understanding was there but not clearly expressed or conveyed. So this is the fundamental teaching. Of great importance. I am not this body, I am not this mind, but pure spirit soul.

 

So one must eventually come to the question of what spiritual practice is practical for this day and age. Where everything is so fast paced and busy.

As mentioned in my previous post I read one time the 'Art of Dying' by the Dalai Lama. It clearly outlines a process for passing through the intermediate stage and gaining good birth or nirvana. But this 'high tantra yoga' taught is very deep and esoteric. I question really the practicality of it, for the general masses. Maybe some advanced monk could apply and grasp these advanced teachings. But not the general masses.

 

So the concept of many births comes into play here. A thought concurrent in eastern philosophy. But really how many births do we want to continue with, in this place of suffering. I guess if the spiritual practice is wonderful many births could be endured. Such is the nature of love of God. So really I feel liberation is not the goal. But love of God. Ever-increasing, ever-new love. Rather than a spiritual practice being the 'means' to the 'goal', for me developing love of God is the means and goal simultaneously.

 

So really I feel that the buddhist concepts of 'deity yoga', or temporarily worshipping a 'form' of God as taught by the impersonalist school, for final liberation is not what I desire. Or merging into oneness.

 

I wish to incorporate into my spirtual life the means and goal into one. This is Krsna consciousness for me. To think of Him constantly. Where my heart may enter the reality thus making transition complete. I have faith this is the way to enter next time.

 

Thanks for allowing me to share. Wish you peace.

[bija]

 

I would go so far as to say that no theological system on the planet has a sure-fire way of justifying all the suffering in the world, especially that of innocents. quote by ayodhya.

Yes. When we profess theology or sect, we often say we have claim to the absolute. I don't think anyone has this monopoly either. The absolute is so big surely we can't claim to know it all. Or I should say, more correctly, have claim over it, in regards to knowledge. But with the nature of love these rules may not come into play. If God is love.

 

But I feel, with an open heart, the absolute will come to us, blessing us with what it is beneficial for our growth.

 

I have been thinking lately that the great expanse of God, is something radically different than what I once perceived. That everything is contained therein.

[Ayodhya]

 

So really I feel that the buddhist concepts of 'deity yoga', or temporarily worshipping a 'form' of God as taught by the impersonalist school, for final liberation is not what I desire. Or merging into oneness.

 

The real clincher with your explanation is your disability to see oneness. In my eyes, only one thing can happen after death. If the Advaitins are correct, than regardless of how much your worship Krishna, you will be absorbed into the Brahman. And no matter how much the Advaitins do what they can to merge into the Brahman, they will experience the celestial planets if that be true. And if the Christians be true, we are all going to Hell.

 

Also, please do not group me and do not label me. I am not a pure Bhaktin, or a pure Advaitain, or a pure anything.

[bija]

 

Also, please do not group me and do not label me. I am not a pure Bhaktin, or a pure Advaitain, or a pure anything. quote by Ayodhya

Yes. Sorry about that.

 

 

The real clincher with your explanation is your disability to see oneness. quote by Ayodhya

Yes disability, most likely(choice wording Ayodhya:rolleyes:). I think God is one, so ofcourse there is oneness. But I do not desire to 'merge' and lose individual identity. Or to become void. Instead simultaneous oneness and difference.

 

It could be argued that such desires are due to conditioning, but if individuality is ceased, the dynamic of relationship and love will be diminished. This oneness and difference is the perfect design for mellows of relationship.

 

What do you think of this?

 

Also just to clarify something, I by no means wish to criticise other spiritual understanding such as buddhist deity yoga etc. I have friends who follow such paths. My mind is reasonably open and cannot be labelled easily either. Even if someone wants to do so. But I have aligned with a tradition to keep focus. This is beneficial for the practice of yoga. For concentration. Rather than gathering bits and pieces from here and there. BG 5:17 'When one's intelligence, mind, faith, and refuge are all fixed in the Supreme, then one becomes fully cleansed of misgivings through complete knowledge and thus proceeds straight on the path of liberation'.

 

But I think there is nothing worse than dogmatic fundamentalism. One always needs to work on that. I feel such an approach is not so conducive to spiritual growth.

 

 

And if the Christians be true, we are all going to Hell. quote by Ayodhya

 

Maybe all three options you pointed out, are possible. Just hope it's not the last one.