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These troop calculations are based on purely speculative ideas about the size of the vedic troop formations like an akshauhini. On top of that the vedic language is well known to engage in typical exagerrations to make a point. Yes, it was a very, very large force but I doubt the number of troops was more than four millions, if that. The logistics of such great armies are unforgiving.

 

Of course we can invoke the "leela is inconcievable" principle, but if we are presenting this battle as a historical event that took place in our dimension, we have to stick to realities that we experience every day.

 

you think there is room in the Kurukshetra area for 640 million people to engage in organized combat? they would not fit there even if you had them standing there shoulder to shoulder, let alone having enough room for fighting in chariots and large formations.

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Four million isn't unreasonable if you consider that the Persian's had an army of 2.5 million when they fought the Greeks at Thermopolyae.

 

And someone definitely edited that Wikipedia article since I last looked at it. 1.7 billion is a ridiculous number. There weren't that many people in the world at that time, let alone in India, meaning the Kshatriyas all in Kurukshetra.

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you think there is room in the Kurukshetra area for 640 million people to engage in organized combat?***

 

The concept of space (and time) is different from yuga to yuga. Akasha is an entity-not merely an absence of objects-and it's created by Lord Vishnu to accomodate various objects like men, animals etc. to work their karmas in another field called kaala, time. How much a certain space can accomodate is determined by the Lord, and it varies from yuga to yuga.

 

For instance, the space occupied by a small cup today could be the same space occupied by millions of soldiers in the previous yuga. The same principle applies for time as well, which is why we find people living for longer durations in other yugas, which is nothing extraordinary because that is simply an equaivalent to say, 100 (kali) years.

 

In short, our limited understanding of space is just that, our limited understanding. It is NOT necessarily the reality of space. And that reality is determined by none other than the Lord. Questioning the veracity of MB facts based on our (limited) understanding is futile.

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For instance, the space occupied by a small cup today could be the same space occupied by millions of soldiers in the previous yuga.

 

that is just a speculation not supported by empirical evidence or shastra. there are plenty of material artifacts (both man-made and natural) from the time period of the Kurukshetra war and there is nothing that suggests what you are talking about. The skeletons, the weapons, utensils, buildings, etc. from that time period match what we see today.

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there are plenty of material artifacts (both man-made and natural) from the time period of the Kurukshetra war and there is nothing that suggests what you are talking about. The skeletons, the weapons, utensils, buildings, etc. from that time period match what we see today.

 

Could you post a link to these material artifacts?

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I think we should try and tackle the historicity of the Mahabharata from a more secular standpoint. Dragging God into the picture (however relevent it may be) leaves room for cop-outs.

 

...JUST SEE - this devotee wants to take God out of the equation...

 

As for the 'numbers' I don't go by what wikipedia says I go by what Prabhupada says:

 

It is said in the Mahabharata, Adi-parva (20) that 640,000,000 men were killed in the eighteen days of the Battle of Kurukshetra, and some hundreds of thousands were missing. Practically this was the greatest battle in the world within five thousand years. [sB 1.8.46, purport]

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...JUST SEE - this devotee wants to take God out of the equation...

 

As for the 'numbers' I don't go by what wikipedia says I go by what Prabhupada says:

 

It is said in the Mahabharata, Adi-parva (20) that 640,000,000 men were killed in the eighteen days of the Battle of Kurukshetra, and some hundreds of thousands were missing. Practically this was the greatest battle in the world within five thousand years. [sB 1.8.46, purport]

 

We are talking about the historicity of a man-made book, not the Absolute Reality.

 

You are a fool to think that that many people actually fought on one single battlefield. You need to start thinking for yourself.

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We are talking about the historicity of a man-made book, not the Absolute Reality.

 

You are a fool to think that that many people actually fought on one single battlefield. You need to start thinking for yourself.

 

 

I was under the understanding from reading Prabhupada's books that the vedas are actually written by the literary incarnation of the Lord and they are actual histories. I know people continually have the history versus allegory debate and honestly I don't know what to think about that stuff except to know that I am one tiny dumbass amongst billions and billions of other living entities deluded by the material energy with limited senses so my interpretation of things could be way off wether I think I am right or wrong.

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We are talking about the historicity of a man-made book, not the Absolute Reality.

 

You are a fool to think that that many people actually fought on one single battlefield. You need to start thinking for yourself.

 

Well in Mahabharata, Adi-parva (20) it gives the numbers of 640 million - so - that is the fact - either you accept or you don't - but - that is the citation to check the numbers - do you dispute that citation?

 

If you could think in an abstract manner - you might understand such statements as:

 

...all the kings and residents of the whole world became involved in this fight between the rival brothers... [sB 1.8.46, purport]

 

So that indicates that the battle wasn't limited to the battlefield in India. That is why that battle was considered to be a 'world war' all the kings and residents of the whole world didn't travel to India for this battle but rather - the battle had to come out to them in their realms...

 

Quote:

 

We are talking about the historicity of a man-made book, not the Absolute Reality

 

Reply:

 

Is it a man made book? What part was inspired what part not? Can we then trust anything it says about God - if it cannot relate simple numbers accurately? Do you think Vyasadeva is a man-made character? If him why not Krishna too? Some say that Krishna didn't really even exist - that He was a long time literary evolution - is there any 'historicity' for Krishna?

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Prabhupada is living?

 

Uh huh....

 

Please explain why the Vedabase doens't have any new comments and advice from Srila Prabhupada for the year 2006?

 

You ritviks don't know what it really means, when Krishna says: tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnenta sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva darshinah.

 

Ignorant. Blind, like owls who close their eyes when the sun comes up.

 

Did ya see my reply? Have nothing to reply with?

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Well if you could think in an abstract manner you might understand such statements as:

 

...all the kings and residents of the whole world became involved in this fight between the rival brothers... [sB 1.8.46, purport]

 

So that inmdicates that the battle wasn't limited to the battlefield in India.

 

Quote:

 

We are talking about the historicity of a man-made book, not the Absolute Reality

 

Reply:

 

Is it a man made book? What part was inspired what part not? Can we trust anything it says about God if it cannot relate simple numbers accurately? Do you think Vyasadeva is a man-made character? If him why not Krishna too? Some say that Krishna didn't really even exist - that He was a long time literary evolution - is there any 'historicity' for Krishna?

 

I have seen enough crazy things in my life to believe that it is possible that Vyasadeva was real and the Vedas are actual history. Don't know for sure because I am an idiot but I can't say it is not the truth with any amount of definitiveness.

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...all the kings and residents of the whole world became involved in this fight between the rival brothers... [sB 1.8.46, purport]

 

So that indicates that the battle wasn't limited to the battlefield in India. That is why that battle was considered to be a 'world war' all the kings and residents of the whole world didn't travel to India for this battle but rather - the battle had to come out to them in their realms...

 

 

that is not true at all. it simply means that many kings from various parts of the world came to fight in that battle on the fields of Kurukshetra. all of these kings and their countries are described in Mahabharata. did you read the unabridged Ganguli translation of Mahabharata? it is all there in plain English.

 

and the 640 million number is NOT in Mahabharata, it is derived from that book indirectly, using troop strenght calculations that are quite speculative. and for the record Adi Parva 20 chapter is a misquote in that connection.

 

AP 20

Suta Goswami continued:

Moving swiftly, Kadru crossed over the sea with her sister Vinata and quickly alighted near the celestial horse. Seeing the many black hairs in the horse's tail, Kadru at once placed Vinata, whose face was downcast with grief, in a state of menial servitude. Poor Vinata was tormented by misery, for having lost the wager she was now bound to the life of a lowly servant.

Meanwhile, Vinata's second son, Garuda, whose time had come, broke his shell without his mother's help, and thus the mighty one took birth. Shining forth like a blazing mass of fire, that terrifying bird suddenly grew to an enormous size and took to the sky. Upon seeing him, demigods and all the creatures took shelter of the god of fire, who (in the person of Garuda) sat before them in his cosmic form. Prostrating themselves, they said, "Dear Fire, do not grow so fierce! Would you burn us all to ashes? Your great, blazing mass is coming close!"

Fire said:

My dear demigods, subduers of the demons, it is not as you think. What you are seeing is the powerful Garuda, who is equal to me in fiery strength.

Suta Goswami said:

Thus addressed by Fire, the demigods and sages went up to Garuda and praised him with eloquent words.

"You are an exalted sage, the lord of birds! As powerful and fiery as the sun, you are our greatest means of deliverance.

"You possess waves of power, yet you are fair and just and never mean or weak. Because your strength is irresistible, you are always successful. The world has heard all about your fiery power, for your past and future glory is not at all meager.

"How extraordinary you are, illuminating all the world and its creatures by your effulgent rays as if you were the sun. Indeed, you surpass the radiant sun. You are as strong as death, surpassing all that is fixed and fleeting in this world. As the sun when angered can scorch all creatures, so can you burn all beings, like the sacred fire consuming the offering of butter. Your ascent is fearful, like the fire of annihilation, and you can stop the cycle of cosmic ages.

"O lord of birds, we have come for shelter to you, who are so greatly powerful and can dispel darkness, who touch the clouds with his great strength. We come before you, O courageous, sky-going Garuda, who soar both near and far, who are magnanimous and unconquerable."

Thus praised by the demigods and hosts of sages, the fair-winged Garuda withdrew his frightening potency within himself.

http://www.philosophy.ru/library/asiatica/indica/itihasa/mahabharata/eng/01_adi.html

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Kula, you're so full of pride you're willing to reject the statements made in MB. What can I say? it's very similar to atheists questioning God, Veda etc.

 

You talk about artifacts. They have undergone changes in kali yuga, what you see is only a pale imitation. Understand that the Lord is omnipotent, and can accommodate an elephant in the tiny space occupied by a fly. And that's how one understands MB. the numbers are real. Do not question Bhagavan Vyasa.

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Kula, you're so full of pride you're willing to reject the statements made in MB.

 

I may be full of pride, but in this case we are simply talking about interpreting these statements differently, not rejecting them. show me the exact passage in MB and we will talk. as usual, you are making things up to present me in a bad light for the sake of a better argument.

 

many sanskrit words, like yojana, akshauhini, etc. have diverse meanings and implications. we had a very similar discussion when talking about the moon to earth distance and SB. you are welcome to your own take on these things but it is not the only way of reading and understanding such shastric passages.

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I may be full of pride, but in this case we are simply talking about interpreting these statements differently, not rejecting them. show me the exact passage in MB and we will talk. as usual, you are making things up to present me in a bad light for the sake of a better argument.

 

many sanskrit words, like yojana, akshauhini, etc. have diverse meanings and implications. we had a very similar discussion when talking about the moon to earth distance and SB. you are welcome to your own take on these things but it is not the only way of reading and understanding such shastric passages.

 

So you're saying Prabhupada made a rather stupid mistake when he wrote the Purport to SB 1.8.46 - is that what you're saying? Are there any 'other' mistakes that Prabhupada made which you think we all aught to be apprised of? :rolleyes:

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Kula, you're so full of pride you're willing to reject the statements made in MB. What can I say? it's very similar to atheists questioning God, Veda etc.

 

You talk about artifacts. They have undergone changes in kali yuga, what you see is only a pale imitation. Understand that the Lord is omnipotent, and can accommodate an elephant in the tiny space occupied by a fly. And that's how one understands MB. the numbers are real. Do not question Bhagavan Vyasa.

 

Wow! Do I know you? Did I miss something - when did it happen? Are you that same person who was posting 'that other suff' a few months ago? I'm very pleased to see this 'apt' broad minded mood in you - it's very evolved from just a few months ago!

 

:namaskar:

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