Search for missing July 7th Appointment tape

[Guruvani 0]

The actual namiing of ritviks happened on July 7th, 1977.

We have all seen the July 9th letter that was drafted from the July 7th pronouncments of Srila Prabhupada.

 

What only a very rare few devotees have ever heard is the complete original and unadultered recording of that July 7th conversation.

 

Why is such an important tape that the July 9th appointment letter was drafted from impossible for anyone to get their hands on?

 

I know that Dhira Krishna Maharaja had a copy of the original tape.

I heard that tape many times.

As temple president in LA he had good contacts and acquired a copy of that rare tape.

Eventually, he turned over his press and tape collection to Bhakti Saranga Swami, who took sannyasa from Jayapataka Maharaja and who had a temple in Hawaii the last account I had.

 

We see snippets of that tape around, and even the IRM has nothing but that snippet of that tape on their website.

 

I think it would be very important is somebody could get a complete uncut copy of that tape and make it available to devotees around the world.

 

Does ANYBODY have a copy of that tape?

[Guruvani 0]

Gauridas Pandit das says that it was on about July 8th or 9th Srila Prabhupada said that the GBC could add more ritviks in the future.

As a direct disciple and personal servant of Srila Prabhupada, the words of Gauridas Pandit das are coming down through the parampara system.

 

 

Tamal K.G. also asked Srila Prabhupada if there could be more ritviks in the future. Srila Prabhupada said that more could be appointed by the GBC at Mayapura. Tamal K.G. asked Srila Prabhupada what to do if a ritvik falls down and Srila Prabhupada replied that the GBC could remove them. Srila Prabhupada said that his temples were for his worship only and if we become diksa gurus we should only accept worship in our own temples. That way the movement would be united under Srila Prabhupada. The new devotees are junior God-brothers and sisters and if we become a pure devotee, diksa guru, those initiates would be 'grand disciples' of Srila Prabhupada. But this will be rare and must be done outside of ISKCON. For ISKCON we are all Godbrothers and sisters, junior and senior. Of course all respect is to be given to the senior and all devotees. Srila Prabhupada wanted one big happy family built on love and trust. That's why he established the ritvik system with him in the center. That's why he spent days and nights writing the lawbooks for the next ten thousand years.

 

When I informed Yasodanandan about Srila Prabhupada's instructions Tamal K.G. called me into his office and said, "I told you never to say anything about what Prabhupada says to anybody without clearing it through me first! You'll never do anything for Prabhupada again!" He told me to 'get out.'

 

I was thunderstruck! He had the authority to 'fire me' and he did. I retreated to my room and lamented like anything. Upendra Prabhu came to see me and tried to encourage me. He said he was working on Tamal K.G. to try to get me back. They had tried out a couple of other devotees to do my services. The next day Upendra returned and said that the devotees were 'spacing out.' He said Tamal K.G. didn't realize how much service I was actually doing and they needed me back. I was going to get another chance. It was the one of the happiest days of my life! I relished my service even more and thought that the ritvik initiation system would be continued indefinitely.

 

[Guest guest]

from pita das journal:

 

"These deities were later given by Tamal Krishna Maharaja to Sankarshan Das, our godbrother, who was taking care of Tamal Krishna's Radha Damodarra tape ministry in Houston.

 

When we were both serving at the Houston Temple 1978-79 and were shown the tapes from(Srila Prabhupadas last year Vrindavan in 1977 two rows of TD4s. two yards long. )

 

We understand that only about twenty of these tapes are currently in the BBT Archives. We feel that these tapes have been destroyed, lost or hidden."

[suchandra 1]

 

Does ANYBODY have a copy of that tape?

 

I dont know if this is the complete conversation, it stops quite abruptly..(end)

 

 

Room Conversations

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

July 7, 1977, Vṛndāvana

 

Prabhupāda: Just see. For cutting the throat of cow, he’s going

thousands of miles. This is the civilization. He’s an expert butcher,

and he has got service in Australia, and he’ll go. This is livelihood,

personal duty. What a nonsense business, and he’s going to… Mā

jīva vā māra. A butcher is advised, “Don’t die; don’t live. If you live, it

is a horrible business, and if you die, you’ll go to hell. So don’t die;

don’t live.”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He has a question to ask. He says, “Is it permitted to

use shells for making jewelry, crowns, etc., for Deities? Or is it to be

considered as the bone of an animal?”

Prabhupāda: No, you can do it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: ’Cause they’re very beautiful.

Prabhupāda: The bone of animal is the conchshell, and that is used

in Deity room. It is… The conchshell is nothing but bone of an

animal.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right. He says that he has a plan. “We want to inlay

the thrones for the new temple with beautiful shells if it is

permitted.”

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He’s says he’s trying to increase the book distribution

by arranging a big door-to-door program.

Prabhupāda: That is my earnest desire. Fulfill it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s all he has to say. That was all the mail that

came.

Prabhupāda: You can send him some old newsletter with a note that

“How your other Godbrothers are doing. Compete with them in this

line.”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Simply fighting, what gift? Fighting between

brother and brother, that is going on perpetually, but do something

for the father. By right I’ll take.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Satsvarūpa’s… Rāmeśvara sent an article. One

of Siddha’s papers, they published an article which was against the

devotees.

Prabhupāda: Who?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Siddha-svarūpa’s.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It was against the devotees’ book distribution tactics.

So…

Prabhupāda: So you can send them: “This is not good.” Let him

know.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So Satsvarūpa wrote a letter to the editor of the

newspaper—it’s a newspaper which is put out by Siddha’s people—

saying that “This is not at all proper. You should not…” He gave so

many shastric references why it is not good.

Prabhupāda: It will be corrected.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, I mean the main… It’s not so serious. The main

point is, as you said, they’re chanting and all these other activities.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So we shall go now?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. It’s getting late.

Prabhupāda: Where is Jao Prasad? [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything was “probably” in their books.

Prabhupāda: “Probably,” “maybe.”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Those are their favorite words. Śrīla Prabhupāda?

We’re receiving a number of letters now, and these are people who

want to get initiated. So up until now, since your becoming ill, we

asked them to wait.

Prabhupāda: The local, mean, senior sannyāsīs can do that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s what we were doing… I mean, formerly we

were… The local GBC, sannyāsīs, were chanting on their beads, and

they were writing to Your Divine Grace, and you were giving a

spiritual name. So should that process be resumed, or should we…? I

mean one thing is that it’s said that the spiritual master takes on

the… You know, he takes on the… He has to cleanse the disciple

by… So we don’t want that you should have to… Your health is not

so good, so that should not be… That’s why we’ve been asking

everybody to wait. I just want to know if we should continue to wait

some more time.

Prabhupāda: No, the senior sannyāsīs…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So they should continue to…

Prabhupāda: You can give me a list of sannyāsīs. I will mark who

will…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay.

Prabhupāda: You can do. Kīrtanānanda can do. And our Satsvarūpa

can do. So these three, you can give, begin.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So supposing someone is in America, should they

simply write directly to Kīrtanānanda or Satsvarūpa?

Prabhupāda: Nearby. Jayatīrtha can give.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayatīrtha.

Prabhupāda: Bhavānan…, er, Bhagavān. And he can do also.

Harikeśa.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Harikeśa Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: And… Five, six men, you divide who is nearest.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Who is nearest. So persons wouldn’t have to write to

Your Divine Grace. They could write directly to that person?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually they are initiating the person on Your Divine

Grace’s behalf. Those persons who are initiated are still your…

Prabhupāda: Second initiation we shall think over, second initiation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is for first initiation, okay. And for second

initiation, for the time being they should…

Prabhupāda: No, they have to wait. Second initiation, that should be

given…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should… Some devotees are writing you now for

second initiation, and I’m writing them to wait a while because

you’re not well. So can I continue to tell them that?

Prabhupāda: They can do second initiation.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By writing you.

Prabhupāda: No. These men.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: These men, they can also do second initiation. So

there’s no need for devotees to write to you for first and second

initiation. They can write to the man nearest them. But all these

persons are still your disciples. Anybody who gives initiation is

doing so on your behalf.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know that book I’m maintaining of all of your

disciples’ names? Should I continue that?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So if someone gives initiation, like Harikeśa

Mahārāja, he should send the person’s name to us here and I’ll enter

it in the book. Okay. Is there someone else in India that you want to

do this?

Prabhupāda: India, I am here. We shall see. In India, Jayapatākā.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jayapatākā Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: You are also in India.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You can note down these names.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I have them.

Prabhupāda: Who are they?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja, Satsvarūpa Mahārāja,

Jayatīrtha Prabhu, Bhagavān Prabhu, Harikeśa Mahārāja, Jayapatākā

Mahārāja and Tamāla Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: That’s nice. Now you distribute.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Seven. There’s seven names.

Prabhupāda: For the time being, seven names, sufficient. You can

make Rāmeśvara.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Rāmeśvara Mahārāja.

Prabhupāda: And Hṛdayānanda.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yeah. South America.

Prabhupāda: So without waiting for me, wherever you consider it is

right… That will depend on discretion.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: On discretion.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s for first and second initiations.

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. Shall I send a kīrtana party, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

[break]

Prabhupāda: And his wife takes four bottles of Nax Pomica.(?) If we

said that “Dr. Bannerji prescribes Nax Pomica(?) and different

(indistinct) to every person,” therefore we finished the Nax Pomica(?)

bottle very quickly. He was the biggest customer for Nax Pomica,

Tincture Nax Pomica.(?) So he… And he was very famous doctor. And

Abhinas Chandra Bannerji, he went to Allahabad very poor

condition. Then, by medical practice, he became very rich man. I

think simply by the mercy of Nax Pomica.(?) So one must know the

right way. (coughs)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How’s your cold, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: There is nothing.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Is it changing the condition at all? We should think

how to get rid of it.

Prabhupāda: How to rid?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember one thing you were taking to loosen the

phlegm in Māyāpura when you had a cough. You were taking a little

hot lemon juice in the mornings.

Prabhupāda: You can give me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I remember that. It seemed to have good effects. It

also helped for digestion.

Prabhupāda: So any other?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. Actually I’m right in the middle of doing these

accounts, so I probably should…

Prabhupāda: (coughing) So this bank manager came. It means they

are little serious.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, this is a real good sign. The last request of the

head office is a very good sign. The head office is requesting, “Now

please take the letter for him to sign…” It means that they’re

planning how to get the branch open. And I told this man that “If you

get this opened, then surely we will open your branch in our

Māyāpura center as well in all other centers.”

Prabhupāda: That’s nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They are a good bank. There’s no doubt.

Prabhupāda: That Mr. Neta came?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His name is Mr. Pattak, isn’t it?

Prabhupāda: Oh, Pattak, Pattak, yes. That’s all right. Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: After massage I can come and see you and give

some… (end)

[suchandra 1]

 

Gauridas Pandit das says that it was on about July 8th or 9th Srila Prabhupada said that the GBC could add more ritviks in the future.

As a direct disciple and personal servant of Srila Prabhupada, the words of Gauridas Pandit das are coming down through the parampara system.

 

Indeed, they are also missing here, http://causelessmercy.com/t/?i=1977

[suchandra 1]

Room Conversation about Māyāpura Attack

Talk with Vrindavan De

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

July 8, 1977, Vṛndāvana

7

Prabhupāda: Broken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Finished. I remember we were walking with you. So it

was near the… You know, near Bury Place there’s a little park.

Prabhupāda: That is very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. There was one building that they were

constructing, and before finishing the building they were living in it,

and you said, “This means this British Empire is finished. They

cannot even afford to finish the building before living in it. This is a

sign that they are not opulent at all.” I remember you said that.

They’re not very opulent, the British.

Prabhupāda: No. Their opulence finished. Actually they’re poor

country. Simply by exploiting other countries they became rich.

Otherwise they are… Naturally they are poor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Peasants. Didn’t Hitler say something about that?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think Hitler said they’re…

Prabhupāda: “Shopkeeper’s nation.” Yes. Naturally they are very

poor. They cannot produce anything. It is so cold.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They produce coal.

Prabhupāda: I do not know what is they produce… What is called?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Moss.

Prabhupāda: Moss. When there is moss and waterpot.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Moss.

Prabhupāda: Moss, moss.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They produce that.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) Everywhere you’ll find, even on the trees,

because there is no sunshine, all rainfall.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: Very wretched place. I told some television reporter.

“Here is hell.”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: When you landed there you said that?

Prabhupāda: No. There was television girl. “What is the description

of hell?” “Now, here is, London.”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Whew! That must not have been a very popular

statement.

Prabhupāda: No, he stopped immediately. Simply outwardly

decorated, and it is hell. I told him. Actually that is, everywhere.

No… Only cloud and that mist.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that the sun never sets in the British Empire.

Prabhupāda: But is always sets in London.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It never rose.

Prabhupāda: Setting of sunshine is monopolized by London.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There’s a description in the Bhāgavatam about the

setting of the sun. It’s described that when the day…, that the water

is darker by day. The ocean water is darker by day than by night.

And the reason given is that the daytime, the daylight goes into the

ocean at night. The ocean absorbs the light of the day, and therefore

when you look at the water at night, it’s lighter than it is during the

day. That’s a fact. The Bhāgavatam explains why, that there’s some

power within the ocean to attract the daytime. And in the daytime,

the nighttime goes…

Prabhupāda: It is absorbed.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And the opposite is true, in the daytime the night

goes into the water, so it appears a very dark color. This is… Every

explanation is given in the Bhāgavatam, and it’s all in contradiction

to the so-called scientists. They say that the reason we experience

day and night is that the earth is rotating on its axis and at the same

time circumambulating the sun.

Prabhupāda: Double. Double motion.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. So they say, therefore, when you’re on this side

and the sun is here, you won’t see, but when it turns around, then

you’ll see the sun. But the Bhāgavatam does not agree with that

description. The Bhāgavatam says that you don’t see the sun

because it’s blocked by the Meru. The sun is moving, and Meru is

blocking. And they never even heard of Meru. What is their

knowledge? Such a big mountain and they don’t even know about it.

That means they never left the earth’s sphere. They never went more

than a few hundred miles in the air, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It’s all lies.

Prabhupāda: All. That I am speaking from the very beginning. Now it

is proved. They are also saying.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, about the moon hoax.

Prabhupāda: Yes. They could not answer this, “Why Sunday first,

Monday?”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I was with you when that reporter came in Los

Angeles. Prabhupāda said, “Then answer to this one question, ‘Why

all over the world, Sunday comes before Monday?’ ”

Prabhupāda: They could not answer.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they thought that that was a childish… They

thought that was very childish to say…

Prabhupāda: Yes, first of all answer this child. Then become

scientist. So there is no professor.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, to them, some of our statements seem very

childish and innocent.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some of the things that we say. Just like why is the

water darker at daytime? Because the night has entered the water.

They say, “Oh, that is…”

Upendra: They say it’s mythology.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Mythology or childish. “Only a child would believe

such a thing.” But it’s common sense. They have no faith, Śrīla

Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Hm. Go and take rest. [break] Because I am very much

fond of traveling, touring, they might have caused some danger. So

Kṛṣṇa has detained me. What do you think?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I think you’re right, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Yes. Actually

the GBC, we all were thinking that it might be dangerous for you…

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: …to travel.

Prabhupāda: They would have been very glad that “Here is the old

rascal who has spoiled our children.” They could charge, and drag

me to the courts and give me trouble. Therefore a restriction on me.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Restrict, that instead of myself, he has to restrict: “Do

this way.”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Including go to the court. This boy writes further. He

says, “They claimed I was brainwashed by Śrīla Prabhupāda and the

devotees, and they were here to get me to think for myself again.

They kept me up for ten hours at a time for so-called

deprogramming, just blaspheming Śrīla Prabhupāda and Kṛṣṇa and

telling lie after lie. Finally they let me go to sleep, and in the

morning it was time for more blaspheming and lies. But by Kṛṣṇa’s

mercy I was able to escape out the front door of the house,” he says,

“which was unguarded. I ran down my block barefoot and was able

to get to my friend’s house. I told him the story. He gave me enough

money to get to a nearby temple. There I served Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa

and had the association of my Godbrothers, who are most dear to

me. There I spent the happiest time of my life as a devotee with the

association of the Brajabāsīs. Being a devotee of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa,

there’s nothing like it—singing, dancing, taking prasādam, being

happy and free from anxiety all the time. It is just a blissful life. All

Kṛṣṇa wants is for us to be happy with Him. I called my parents and

told them that I was doing fine and that I had even gained seven

pounds in weight. They had the police looking for me all over the

place in only a minute, and they finally showed up. Mahārāja felt it

was best that I go back and clear things up with my parents and with

their consent come back. But they refused to let me go, and instead

put me through a one-month deprogramming session. This time I

was unable to escape. But now Kṛṣṇa has pulled me through, even

though I’m forced to live with my parents. They are nice people, but

they just don’t understand about transcendental life. But they will

come around sooner or later. I cannot keep any Vedic literature at

home, so a friend lets me keep it at his house, and I read it during

my school lunchtime. I am not able to keep japa beads to chant on,

so I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa on rosary beads. I’m sixteen years old now

and going to school, where I am taught little of any value. It is

sometimes difficult to remain Kṛṣṇa conscious out in the material

world, but I pray to Lord Caitanya and Lord Nityānanda to help me

become strong and desire to serve Kṛṣṇa more and more every day. I

will be able to join the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement in person in two years,

which isn’t very long considering that I have waited to serve Kṛṣṇa

for millions of lifetimes. If you have the opportunity to serve Kṛṣṇa,

don’t waste it, because you may wind up in my shoes in your next

life. Hare Kṛṣṇa.” This is…

Prabhupāda: If one man is turned by this, the movement is

successful. So there is good prospect, good hope. And you all

combine together, try. Push this movement more and more.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A lot of encouraging… I mean, everywhere there’s

victory.

Prabhupāda: Now I am assured. If I die or live, this movement will go

on. Is it not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This movement cannot die. Too many… Implanted in

so many people’s hearts now. We cannot get it out anymore.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: A very nice magazine.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I can just show you some pictures. [break]

Prabhupāda: There is no danger at Vṛndāvana-candra’s… Kaunteya

pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ pra… So now they are printing, huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, this is on their own press, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Oh!

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Look how nicely they’ve done. It says, “Serving Kṛṣṇa

in the Land of Transcendental Bliss.” Ox cart, cooking, Kulādri

cooking in a big pot, cows, milking. Here they have all the people

working on it.

Prabhupāda: Very nice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: “Light of the Bhāgavata.” It’s a lecture by you. These

are original illustrations.

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, do you see what this says, Śrīla Prabhupāda, on

this past page? It says… This is the verse. “The small rivulets, which

were almost dried up during the months of May and June, now begin

to overflow, transgressing the banks of the river, just as the upstarts

addicted to uncontrolled sense enjoyment overflow the limits of

expenditure all of a sudden.” And then they show a picture

describing it. Sense enjoyment. They’re going verse by verse and

drawing original illustrations to depict. Vedic recipe page:

rasagullās. It says, “Agni-hotra on Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva’s Appearance

Day.”

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sanskrit is given. It’s very nice. “Spiritual Psychology:

Going Beyond the Sex Impulse.”

Prabhupāda: They printed in their own press.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Very good advancement. What is this?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says, “Āśrama Stems.” It’s describing the

construction of your palace. And here’s a picture of the two

śālagrāmas which they now worship. Look how elaborate!

Prabhupāda: Very good.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrī Hiraṇyagarbha and Śrī Sudarśana in jeweled

thrones. This is making the top of the domes. On your Palace

there’s… The top domes have lotus petals coming under them. So

over that will go the domes. This is very big. The devotees are

making the whole thing themselves. This shows devotees. See, this

is a form, and into this form they’ll pour concrete and other things

and make shapes like these lotus petals. It’s all hand done. “The

Hare Kṛṣṇa Movement.” This is pictures of saṅkīrtana in Pittsburgh

and Wheeling, West Virginia. “Iṣṭagoṣṭhi: Questions and answers

discussed between His Holiness Kīrtanānanda Swami and members

and guests of New Vrindaban.” “Cow-Kathā.” (laughter) Like kṛṣṇa-

kathā, cow-kathā. “Seeking Refuge from the Kali-yuga.” This is from

your old Back to Godheads. I remember in the first printings in

America this appeared—Nārada-Bhakti-Sūtra. This boy writes an

article every week—“Deep in the Woods.” He’s the woodman there,

wood cutter. He tells about different… He relates it to the śāstra.

“Color photographs available of Rādhā-Vṛndāvana-candra.” They

send it in the mail, “Non-profit organization, US Postage Paid.” So it

goes in the mail just like this. Very nice. I think it’s time for your

massage, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: I’ll take.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Okay. I thought it was good to read all these things to

you.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. [break] …underneath a tree.

Devotees: Yes. [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: …telephone call from Gopāla Kṛṣṇa. He got a call

from Māyāpura, and in our Māyāpura temple there was some

difficulty there from dacoits.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Three hundred dacoits attacked our temple, and there

was fighting, and five of the devotees were in the hospital.

Bhavānanda Mahārāja, he was arrested ’cause he fired a gun. He

shot two of them and put them in the hospital, so they arrested him.

And that’s all he told me. Three hundred dacoits attacked. He said

Jayapatākā is now there. Jayapatākā wasn’t there. He was traveling

and preaching. So he’s there now. He’s sending a report to you, a

more detailed report. And they want… Jayapatākā Mahārāja wants

Śatadhanya Mahārāja to go immediately there because Bhavānanda

is in jail, arrested. And they want Prabhāsa to come, because the

gun, the gun that Bhavānanda Mahārāja used is in the name of

Prabhāsa. And Gopāla Kṛṣṇa is going there tomorrow. He’s also

going there.

Prabhupāda: So why attacked?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, the only thing we could guess is that now the

government is Communist. So it may be that these were

Communist-inspired dacoits. I mean, three hundred, if there was

actually… It must have been quite a huge number. That means they

were organized. It’s not some ordinary village dacoits to have such a

huge number of them. So the Communists, maybe they did this. It’s

hard to understand until we get the report from Jayapatākā. He said

he’s sending it.

Prabhupāda: And police did not help?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, it was in the middle of the night. So probably by

the time they informed the police, you know, by the time the police

came, whatever was done was done. I mean, Gopāla didn’t have the

full information, and he’s going there. And, of course, we were only

talking over telephone, so even if he knew… He told me as much as

he could over the telephone. But I asked if anyone was killed. He

said no. But five devotees were in the hospital. You know that

teacher who was here? Hiraṇyagarbha? Remember the gurukula

teacher? He was stabbed. I think that’s about the most serious that

anyone was hurt. No one was killed or anything, but… The

government now is very precarious there. It’s all Communist

government. I mean, I remember when Bengal was with the

Communists in 1971. It was horrible there. So many marches, and so

many of our members were being attacked. So maybe it was the

Communists who did this. I don’t think the Gauḍīya Maṭha could

have organized such a thing. They would not do that.

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It sounds like… I don’t know if there’s any… Probably

they won’t attack again immediately. Now there must be police all

the time there. I remember, in Calcutta once we had some trouble.

Immediately they put a police guard all the time. The question is, of

course, how much the government will protect us if the government

is Communist and these were Communists who attacked. That we’ll

have to see.

Prabhupāda: No. It has to be taken to the Central Government.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s what I thought also. I suspect that Gopāla

wants to get the full information firsthand. Then he has to come to

Vṛndāvana-Delhi anyway, so probably he’ll come from Calcutta to

Delhi directly to deal with the Central government. At that time, we

should take the help of Bhakti-caitanya Mahārāja’s friend, Mr.

Gupta. This is the proper occasion.

Prabhupāda: But if the dacoits attack, we used gun, what is wrong?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Self-protection. The question is it may be that the

gun may only be allowed to be used by the licensed holder of the

gun.

Prabhupāda: That does not…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes, you know, when a person is arrested, it

doesn’t mean he’s guilty, but they have to arrest him. Then, later on,

it’s taken up in court whether or not he’s guilty.

Prabhupāda: Gun is kept for protection.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Anyway, it will come up in court. That’s a formality,

that when you shoot someone they arrest you. Whether you’re right

or wrong, they have to take you to court. Probably the dacoits

pressed some charge also. Who knows? Jayapatākā’s report will be

coming with…, more fully… Actually I would have waited to tell you,

but because Śatadhanya will have to… They want him to go, so…

They want Prabhāsa there right away. It may be that they want to say

that Prabhāsa was there.

Prabhupāda: So both of them are going?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, Gopāla… His point… He said Jayapatākā wants

Śatadhanya Mahārāja and Prabhāsa to go.

Prabhupāda: Then let them go.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That was his whole point in calling, because they

cannot call from Māyāpura to Vṛndāvana. The telephone line will not

do that. So Māyāpura called Bombay and Bombay called here.

Prabhupāda: So some of the dacoits are arrested or not?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He didn’t say. I’m certain that some of them must

have been arrested. They couldn’t have all gotten away. I mean,

some of them are in the hospital. The ones that Bhavānanda shot

are in the hospital.

Prabhupāda: So one is in the hospital.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Two.

Prabhupāda: Two.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bhavānanda shot down two of them.

Prabhupāda: No, no. From their? Dacoits?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, two. Bhavānanda shot with a gun two dacoits,

and they’re in the hospital.

Prabhupāda: So then there is clue. Then others should be arrested.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually… I’m actually speculating… Gopāla said

Bhavānanda shot two of them, and he’s in jail for shooting two of

them. I’m saying that they’re in the hospital. Maybe they’re not. He’s

arrested for shooting two of them.

Prabhupāda: Unless they are in hospital…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: How could he be arrested? Right.

Prabhupāda: Bengal has become ruined.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They’re the only place in all of India that elected a

Communist government. Everyone else was so happy to elect the

new party. But they elected Communists. Most amazing.

Prabhupāda: Where is Vrindavan?

Devotee: He’s resting.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know, what I’m thinking is that that Mr. Arora, he

wanted to go to Jyoti Basu.

Prabhupāda: He talks too much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don’t think it’s going to have much consequence. If

they want to give us the land, they’ll give it. It’s not that…

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Regarding that land, if they want to give it, they’ll

give it. It’s not that somebody’s going to come, like Mr. Arora, and

by his coming suddenly they’re going to give us the land. It’s a big

political matter. It’s not friendship. We just have to become very

much prepared now for such occurrences. Those gurukula boys, as

they grow up, they should be trained to protect Māyāpura.

Prabhupāda: Therefore I say kṣatriya. Some of our men should be

trained as kṣatriya.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is required.

Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. There must be

division—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya—not that all one class. That is

all wrong.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some people are inclined in that way. Guṇa-karma.

Prabhupāda: But everyone can be utilized if you organize it rightly.

Three hundred dacoits there means government is very weak.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s just in one little area, Nadia District. Imagine

how many dacoits are in all of Bengal now. It will get even worse

than it was in 1971. I’m sure, as the Kali-yuga progresses, it will

only get worse. And it was very bad. I remember when we were

living in Bali Ganj. Every day there was march. People were

marching, Communist slogans.

Prabhupāda: (indistinct)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Bhakti-caru was saying that one of the reasons

Bengali people are by nature… They’re intelligent. They’re always

intelligent people, not so much physically hard working. So without

so much physical work to do and without proper employment, this

intelligence now has become misdirected. ’Cause nowhere else in

India do the Communists have such a foothold as in Bengal.

Prabhupāda: Intelligent and lazy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Intelligent lazy. I looked on the medicine bottle of

this cough medicine that you took.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This cough medicine that you took, that Expectrin?

One fourth of it is chloroform, and it says that in some persons it

will cause sleepiness, drowsiness, due to the chloroform.

Upendra: He’s coming, Prabhupādajī. He’s just finishing breakfast.

He said he’s coming. [break]

Prabhupāda: …in the world, the most disturbing element.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Russia, it seems from Harikeśa’s letter, that they

are admitting it is a failure.

Prabhupāda: It is… It must be failure.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now in Russia they seem to be tending more and

more to give up all of this false philosophy. They’re allowing

churches again.

Prabhupāda: Lenin, Stalin, they were guṇḍās. Guṇḍā philosophy.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about Marx?

Prabhupāda: He was a rascal. What is his philosophy?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Economic philosophy.

Prabhupāda: No, no, what is that, basic principle?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Basic principle is that the…

Prabhupāda: I do not care to read this nonsense, never. What I hear

from you, that’s all. I tell them, “Mūḍhas, narādhamas.” That’s all.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You don’t spend any time studying their philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Why shall I waste my time? I never read all these.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes devotees say, in order to defeat… This is

their philosophy.

Prabhupāda: They are defeated, already dead. Few days they can

quack. That’s all. Who asks for Marx now? Gandhi, Marx, Tolstoy,

who cares for them? Vivekananda? Now Kṛṣṇa’s Bhagavad-gītā is

taken.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Even in the law court it’s quoted.

Prabhupāda: So what is the Marx philosophy?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that the people are suffering at the hands of

the capitalists. One or two people…

Prabhupāda: That’s a fact. That we admit, but not to adjust in that

way.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He said everything should be taken out of the hands

of the few and given to the many.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: By violent revolution.

Prabhupāda: Why violent revolution?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says the few will not give up without forcefully

taking it from them.

Prabhupāda: But you’ll also not give up. You want to take it by force.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says…

Prabhupāda: So if you have got right to take by force, others have

got the right to take by force.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, “We represent everyone except the few. And

we want to make the few part of us, but they should not be special.”

Prabhupāda: But if you are so able, then why you are few? You must

be many.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. His revolution is the revolution of the masses

against the few. Just like in Russia they overthrew the Czars.

Prabhupāda: Not the masses. The guṇḍās. Russia was never joined

by the masses. It is wrong. That I have studied. Guṇḍās, some

guṇḍās… Just like three hundred guṇḍās came. That does not mean

that the mass of… The guṇḍās’ party, Lenin guṇḍās… He had some

few men. They attacked. They killed. That’s all, not the mass. It was

not a mass movement.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In China it was the masses.

Prabhupāda: No. The same, the same few.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they said that the few represented the masses.

Prabhupāda: How? Who elected you? Who asked you? Gaya mane

napni mora:(?) “Nobody cares for me, and I have become beautiful.”

There are many Bengali… Danle tarale nija ram salda.(?) (chuckles)

Mass people never joined. That I have studied.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they say that they represent the…

Prabhupāda: You can say, but who made you representative? You

can say all nonsense. That is your business. [break]… who will give

something standard, they’ll be established. That standard is in this

varṇāśrama. Here is the standard, that leg must be there, the hand

must be there, the head must be there, the belly must be… One who

has got the qualities to work like hand, he must work as hand. That

is natural. These rascals have no education actually. Therefore I

always say, “rascals.” They manufacture. They are imperfect, and

they manufacture. [break] “Probably,” “maybe,” like that. No standard

logic. So, (Bengali)

Vrindavan De: Nandagrāma, Varṣāṇā, Rādhā-kuṇḍa, Śyāma-kuṇḍa.

(Bengali)

Prabhupāda: Govardhana Hill?

Vrindavan De: Govardhana. (Bengali)

Prabhupāda: (Bengali) So do you know anything about Bengal

situation?

Vrindavan De: I think it’s okay now.

Prabhupāda: What is the Communist view?

Vrindavan De: Communist view?

Prabhupāda: They don’t want religion? What is this leader? Ajit Bose?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jyoti Bose.

Vrindavan De: No, he’s not the man of that sort. He’s very serious

type of man.

Prabhupāda: But Bengal is now full of rogues and rascals and

dacoits, everywhere. Practically whole Bengal is full of these

elements.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: More than other places.

Vrindavan De: The Congress Minister is very much serious person.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere you are going, anywhere, you can be

attacked.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any train, anywhere.

Prabhupāda: Anywhere.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Any street.

Prabhupāda: Nowhere is safe. Some boys may come and attack you

and take… Nobody will… Is it not like that? Neither at home, neither

on the road… You are not safe.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Imagine, in Māyāpura we have 250 devotees, and still

they attacked.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Māyāpura we have 250 people. What family has

250 people? If 250 people and there’s danger, then what to speak of

a family man with only a few people in the family? That means

they’re ready to attack any number of people. There are so many

dacoits.

Prabhupāda: No, therefore they came in number, three hundred.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And it was very organized, they said. At night they

came.

Vrindavan De: They can refer the matter to the Home Department.

He’s the Home Minister, I think, that Jyoti Bose. He is Chief and

Home. He’s controlling the police powers and force. (Bengali) Take

action.

Prabhupāda: They must be doing something.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, there’s no doubt. With Jayapatākā Mahārāja

there…

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, there was shooting. Bhavānanda Mahārāja was

shooting. There was shooting. I don’t know if they were also

shooting, the dacoits, but we had, our boys… This has happened

before in small scale, so Jayapatākā knows. We’ve been attacked

enough times so that they know that we’re going to make full

reports and complaints and get action. The main thing immediately

is to get protection of the police so that this doesn’t reoccur.

Vrindavan De: You can forward a copy to (indistinct).

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then we should go… It should be taken to the Central

Government.

Vrindavan De: The Chief Secretary.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Another help you can get is from the embassies.

American Embassy has to give protection to its citizens. All foreign

embassies have to give full protection. Actually that’s a very good

road to take, because if the foreign embassies put in complaints,

then it becomes international thing. Then the Central Government

will get very upset and direct the West Bengal Government to stop

this from reoccuring “Because we are getting complaints from

foreign governments now that we can’t give protection to foreigners

who are here in this country.”

Prabhupāda: So give them the instruction.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They should complain to the Consulate, American

Consulate, and Consulate will complain to the Embassy. Once we get

the full information then we can take action here in Delhi also. At

this point we don’t have enough information. This is a very good

road to take. Go to the American Embassy in Delhi and say, “We want

protection. We are American citizens. We want protection. We’re

being attacked in Bengal. You must put pressure on the government

to give us protection.” And they’ll do that surely. Plus they have to

start an investigation to expose who has done this. That has to also

be brought up. I’m sure Jayapatākā is… Śrīla Prabhupāda, should we

go and take our breakfast?

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You want Vrindavan to stay for a while? Prabhupāda: No, he (indistinct). (Bengali conversation about going

around Vṛndāvana) I shall give you car. (Bengali). So if you do

business, I’ll give you car. Not for luxury. (conversation continues in

Bengali) (end)

[suchandra 1]

Room Conversation

during lunchtime

July 8, 1977, Vṛndāvana

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So there was a newspaper clipping about Māyāpura

published in the Hindustan Times. This newspaper clipping…

Prabhupāda: Hindustan Times?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: Delhi.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Ah. The heading is “Eleven Krishna Devotees Held for

Firing.” “Five Indian and six foreign Vaiṣṇava devotees were arrested

from Māyāpura maṭha of ISKCON, the International Society for

Krishna Consciousness, in Nabadwip last night when shots fired

from inside the celebrated temple injured fifteen persons, most of

them milkmen. A double-barreled gun was seized from the maṭha, it

is reported. Police pickets have been posted since there is

considerable tension in the nearby villages. Among those arrested is

Swami Bhavānanda, an American in charge of the maṭha. Some time

ago he was forced to leave the country after the expiry of his visa,

but he returned later. The incident occurred at about 5 p.m. on

Friday. Some boys were grazing their cattle on the fields outside the

maṭha when some cows strayed into its compound. The cattle were

beaten up by the inmates and driven out.” It doesn’t sound like our

devotees. Beat up cows? “Angry milkmen from a nearby village

crowded outside the maṭha. Shots were then fired from inside the

maṭha, it is reported, injuring fifteen persons, two of them seriously.

The police arrived on the scene within an hour. Among the six

foreigners arrested are a Romanian, an Italian, and some Americans.

The founder of the maṭha, Prabhupāda A. C. Bhaktivedanta, was not

present.” This is called slanted reporting. I mean, first of all, our

devotees don’t beat up the cows. We worship the cow. We don’t beat

cows. I can’t take this as very factual account. So many statements

here say, “It was reported,” “It was reported.” This is from a… It was

published in Delhi, but it’s datelined Calcutta, and the event

happened in Māyāpura. So by the time it got to Delhi it seems to

have taken a strange shape. I thought you’d want to…

Prabhupāda: These goyālas are very aggressive.

Śatadhanya: Milkmen means goyālas.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Bālāi goyālas.

Prabhupāda: It is not the Muhammadans.

Śatadhanya: Not according to this.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is still not conclusive.

Prabhupāda: No. Police inquiry must be there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Should I save this?

Prabhupāda: No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śatadhanya Mahārāja is going to be leaving to go to

Māyāpura.

Śatadhanya: Myself and Prabhāsa, we’re going to be leaving now for

Delhi, then to Māyāpura.

Prabhupāda: So what is the actual position, that they should…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Send a letter from there.

Prabhupāda: But why in the morning the cows will come?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It says here, “At 5 p.m. on Friday.”

Prabhupāda: P.M.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in the evening.

Prabhupāda: Evening?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five o’clock in the evening.

Prabhupāda: But they say it was attacked at night.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Well, that’s what Gopāla Kṛṣṇa said over the

telephone. I mean it’s hard to… We don’t know if this is correct or

we don’t know… After all, Gopāla was speaking to Māyāpura over

the telephone, so he only may have gotten some mistaken

information.

Prabhupāda: They say it was, they attacked at night, and they say

five?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Five o’clock.

Prabhupāda: There is some mist…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, surely. I mean Bhavānanda Mahārāja doesn’t

fire a gun unless there’s some very, very heavy provocation. It

wasn’t that some people were standing outside the building going

like this. (gesticulates) They were attacking the building. They got

into the building. They must have.

Upendra: Before the festival they came with knives, and he never

used a gun.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We don’t fire guns into crowds…

Devotee (1): They must have injured someone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Something must have happened. Anyway, the police

will be investigating thoroughly. I don’t know if I should keep… If I

find out any more, should I keep talking to you about it, Śrīla…? It

seems like it’s a depressing subject. Is it right to come to you with

this news?

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It’s all right. Should I give you some good news?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Book distribution news. The latest saṅkīrtana

newsletter came. Would you like to hear it now?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That will counteract the bad news. [break]

Prabhupāda: Keeping alive.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What, Śrīla Prabhupāda?

Prabhupāda: Keeping alive this movement. All our temples are

always crowded. In Los Angeles, in the morning class, it is very

crowded. That colony has become very nice, Los Angeles. Ṭhik.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes.

Upendra: The colony.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s what it is. Now you can walk there, and you

don’t even know you’re in America. All you see are devotees,

devotees’ homes. And it’s always growing. It’s ever-increasing.

Prabhupāda: “Transcendental meditation.” What meditation? Fifteen

minutes—finished.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say it helps you sleep better. They claim that

Transcendental Meditation helps you sleep more soundly.

Prabhupāda: Ācchā. And life is meant for sleeping?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To the Western karmīs, sleep is a luxury, ’cause they

have no peace of mind. So anything that can give them sleep, they

like ’cause they can’t get to sleep. They try pills, so many things. Of

course, we don’t sleep much either, but that is by choice. I tried one

of those balls of bread. In America we call them “cannonballs.”

Prabhupāda: Which ball?

Upendra: Lakta.

Prabhupāda: Oh. How do you like?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very tasteful. In America sometimes they put either

butter or honey on them also to give it a little sweet taste.

Upendra: But they cook them in the oven, and these are cooked on

cow dung. These are cooked on the cow dung, khandi, khandi.(?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: :I was wondering how you were able to chew them.

Prabhupāda: No, I could not.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They’re pretty hard. These are very good on the long

saṅkīrtana days. If someone has to go out for many hours, he takes

some of these and puts them in his pocket. Then every hour he can

eat one, and it gives him strength. Just like the villagers in India,

they put in a little napkin. They put some… What is that? Ḍāl.

Chickpeas.

Prabhupāda: The villagers, these grain soaked in water, they… Not

cooked.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sometimes I have seen they sell on the streets some

spicy ḍāl? Hard? I think that’s fried.

Prabhupāda: Last year in Washington I was there.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: July Fourth. Oh, yes, you were there. They had a

fireworks demonstration, and you saw a parade, I think.

Upendra: Bicentennial?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, that was a big one, two-hundredth anniversary

of the independence. The karmīs are very happy about these

holidays like this July Fourth, but they are not as happy as devotees.

We are even happier, because we know that all the karmīs will buy

even more books on these days.

Prabhupāda: (Bengali)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everything he’s preparing is very nectarine. I think

this year, Christmastime, if we again put on our Santa Claus suits,

eventually people will only give to our Santa Clauses. At first there

was a reaction, last year. And this year there may be again a

reaction, but after a few years no one will want to give to the other

Santa Clauses. We will completely take over the Santa Claus

costume. I don’t think we should give it up.

Prabhupāda: Why? It is our choice.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Right.

Prabhupāda: If I dress myself in a particular way, who can check it?

They cannot check. I like this dress. That’s all. That is not violation

of law.

Upendra: Do they wear tilaka? Santa Claus? No.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They can’t do that. They say, “You’re misrepresenting

yourselves because…”

Prabhupāda: I’m not misrepresenting. I like this dress.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say this dress indicates a Christian…

Prabhupāda: Whatever indication, I like this. You cannot check my

liking. Just like an Indian dresses like a European, or a European

dresses like Indian. Does it mean that he has become Indian or he’s

American? He likes it. That’s all. Can you object if a girl dresses like

Indian with ladies’ sari? Can you object? It is something like that.

“Oh, why you have become Indian-like? Why you are imitating?”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say, “Well, no, you can wear your Santa Claus

suit, but you’ll have to wear a Hare Kṛṣṇa button.”

Prabhupāda: That we can do. Never mind. But that is not under your

dictation. If I like.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They actually made us in New York, the court.

Prabhupāda: No, then there is no objection. But you cannot dictate…

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What dress.

Prabhupāda: Yes. I may dress myself to your liking; I may not.

Rather, you like the Santa Claus dress. You are Christian. I am

pleasing you by dressing myself like this. Why you are not pleased? I

am trying to please you.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say, “Well, actually you’re concealing your

identity.”

Prabhupāda: That is my liking. You cannot dictate. I’m not

pickpocketing you. What is the objection?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say, “Well, why don’t you tell people who you

actually are? Why don’t you say you’re a Hare Kṛṣṇa?”

Prabhupāda: No, that is my desire. You cannot dictate.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, you’re asking me for your money.

Prabhupāda: But unless you know that I’m Hare Kṛṣṇa people, how

you are dictating me?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You’re asking me for my money, though.

Prabhupāda: Huh? No, I am asking everyone.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you’re going to use it for Hare Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we didn’t know you were Hare Kṛṣṇa. We thought

you were Santa Claus.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, I am asking money from everyone.

It is your liking. You give or not give.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: See, for many years there were these other Santa

Clauses from the Salvation Army. So now they made a complaint that

now no one knows who is a real Santa Claus because we are… The

difference is they stand next to a big…

Prabhupāda: But is there any law that nobody can dress like that?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. We’re only…

Prabhupāda: Then?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There was a lot of publicity.

Upendra: You once gave that Bengali saying, “When you eat, you eat

for yourself, but when you dress, you dress for others.”

Prabhupāda: Yes. Apake khana para…(?)

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, I’m not so much speaking from the point of view

of law. I’m just wondering whether it was… From the point of view of

publicity for our society.

Prabhupāda: Publicity, if we find that this dress will attract more,

why not? We shall do.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The Salvation Army Santa Clauses, they became very

upset, because their routine is that they stand next to a big

chimney, because Santa Claus is supposed to come down a chimney

in the myth. So they stand next to the chimney, and they shake their

bell. People put money into this chimney. But our Santa Clauses,

they go down the street very, you know, moving around, dancing,

and they go up to the people all over the place. They don’t wait for

people to come over to the chimney. So we were taking away a lot of

the donations that they would have given to the chimney Santa

Clauses. So they were very…

Prabhupāda: That is business, competition. You are doing your

business; I am doing my business. That competition is there in every

business. When there is business, you cannot dictate me in your

favor: “While you are doing this, my business is being hampered.”

Who will hear you? Hm? If you say it is competition, that “Why you

are doing like this? It is hampering my business,” I’ll say, “Yes, I want

that your business may be hampered; my business may prosper.”

That’s it.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Cut-throat.

Prabhupāda: We want that.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everybody admits that no one can beat us in our book

distribution. Other groups, they tried to duplicate what we are

doing, but they failed.

Prabhupāda: No, what they have got, books?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, that’s another thing. The other Santa Claus, they

don’t give anything. We give books. They give nothing except they

pat the guy on the head. They pat the child. That’s all. What will that

help the child, patting him on the head? And another thing is that all

the other Salvation Army Santa Claus, they’re all drunkards.

Prabhupāda: They must be drunkards.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You know the Salvation Army is very… They take all

the drunkards. They give them Santa suits.

Prabhupāda: If you take money without any aim, you must be

drunkard.

Upendra: Without any?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Aim.

Upendra: Aim.

Prabhupāda: You must be drunkard, you must be woman-hunter,

and you must be intoxicated. And that is not… A meat-eater. That is

the whole world, going on. Not only in this planet, in upper planets.

I have discussed this point in Bhāgavata. The modern economics,

earning money very cheaply, has forced men to become drunkard,

woman-hunters and meat-eater. But what he’ll do with the money?

He has no higher idea. You must utilize the money which you have

got so cheaply. And in the Western countries, if you have a little

business plan, you can sell any damn nonsense things and get

money. Is it not? Huh?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes

Upendra: They sell…

Prabhupāda: No, I know that, that… What is that? Spectacle cleaner.

It is ordinary tissue paper, and they advertise in such a way, getting

money. Make any soda bicarb and advertise it as very good tonic.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, they sell everything.

Prabhupāda: And they know the art.

Upendra: Many years ago they sold one plastic ring like this as a toy,

and it became a craze all over America. Everyone bought little ones

and big ones, called hoop, Hula-hoop, and they played with it, one

ring, plastic ring.

Prabhupāda: There are so many things. I saw. You have to know how

to make people fool. This art you have to know. Then you can have

money. “Moon walk.”

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The government is the most expert at making people

fool.

Prabhupāda: Government is doing that, giving a piece of paper, “one

thousand dollars.” American Express Company, giving paper only

and collecting millions of dollars daily.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just for giving paper you have to pay one percent of

the value of paper. When you give your money, they give you paper.

You pay one percent.

Prabhupāda: But they have created such a credit, and people are

confident as soon as present it… [break]

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That means that our goal is not to do business. It’s to

enlighten people. (pause) So Vrindavan Chandra got off nicely. The

train was on time, and he was very glad to receive all the prasādam.

And they gave him a garland. He said he would remember everyone,

such a nice visit he had. He actually enjoyed himself. I gave him the

Nectar of Instruction to read. He read it.

Prabhupāda: Hindi.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. I gave him the English edition. And he said he

would write as soon as he got back. He got quite a nice send-off,

four or five people. Bhagatjī, Guṇārṇava, Tamāla Nārāyaṇa, the

temple commander. It’s a little (indistinct). And they sat him down in

the seat and made sure everything was all right. Everyone gives him

a lot of respect. They know that he is your son, so when he walks

out everybody was offering their namaskāras. (pause) Śrīla

Prabhupāda? I was thinking I wanted to take a little rest. Is it all

right? At three o’clock I go up to Bhakti-prema’s to try and

understand how the universe is going on. So this is a good news, I

think. Los Angeles is a good news. Prabhupāda: Very good. Jaya. (end)

[suchandra 1]

 

Gauridas Pandit das says that it was on about July 8th or 9th Srila Prabhupada said that the GBC could add more ritviks in the future.

As a direct disciple and personal servant of Srila Prabhupada, the words of Gauridas Pandit das are coming down through the parampara system.

 

Pratyatosa das ( causelessmercy@gmail.com ) surely has those tapes because he's just about to publish a complete set of Srila Prabhupada's tapes as text.

 

http://causelessmercy.com

[Guest guest]

link: therealexplanation.org/article/proof_tooth.html

 

On May 28, 1977, two leading secretaries went to Srila Prabhupada with questions concerning future initiations. The taped transcript of that conversation has been erroneously called "the appointment tape."

 

Nobody was appointed to anything at anytime during this conversation. Forty-two days later, on July 9, 1977, a letter written by one of these secretaries was co-signed by Prabhupada and issued throughout the movement. This letter directed eleven of Prabhupada's disciples to once again take up initiating newcomers on his behalf.

 

This letter, in effect, documented the re-establishment of the rittvik system of initiation, which had been in place for many years previously in the Hare Krishna movement.

 

The details of this May tape require sober analysis. Misunderstandings about its meanings have given rise to much controversy for over two decades. In one sense, there are almost as many variations of these two events (the room conversation and the issuance of the letter) as there are interpreters. Nevertheless, the controversy is basically perpetuated by two camps: corporate ISKCON and the rittviks. The interpretations pushed by these two parties continue to this day to dissemble the truths of Prabhupada's Krishna consciousness movement.

 

There is a consistent, tenable, and even rather obvious understanding ("interpretation") of the May conversation, and this paper will present that. Quotations by Prabhupada will be used in presenting these understandings, and logic will also be employed. As far as source documents are concerned, there are many of them.

 

Both camps have any number of articles on this subject either in print or online. Corporate ISKCON has Disciple of My Disciple, On My Order, and, most recently, Prabhupada's Order, which is a rather lengthy treatise. The rittviks have a plethora of documents which spell out their most cherished concepts, and we've consulted many of them.

 

Despite inevitable subdivisions within each of these two factions (and, naturally, the minor philosophical disagreements such subdivisions are prone to engender), there are constructs or proposed siddhantas which are accepted by all within each group.

 

These are the fulcrum points upon which each polarity hinges its justification and seeks momentum for spreading its influence. This treatise will carefully look at these chief fulcrum points, but it will not be written for the purpose of satisfying intellectuals who require painstaking adherence to Western literary conventions before they will accept anything.

 

Similarly, this paper will seek the blessings of parampara and paramatma not by offering some flowery preface or wordy invocation. Those are nice, of course, but this article will only help devotees who are eligible for such help, who are receptive to its clarity. Most of those prabhus would be turned off by having to wade through lengthy invocations and the like. Digging through this complex topic is cumbersome enough. As such, let's proceed straight to the preaching.

 

An objective of this article is to demonstrate that certain popular interpretations of the tape are seriously flawed. These differing interpretations work at cross-purposes and feed the binary. The respective loyal following of each group (corporate ISKCON and the rittviks) unquestionably accepts their own popular interpretations as rock-solid facts and truths.

 

In other words, both camps push specific falsities as self-evident truths, despite the fact that each sect does interpret sections of the tape accurately. That's how each of them receives power and justification when it exposes the fallacy of its foil.

 

Confirmation of one thesis results in the logical exclusion of all others which oppose and contradict it. This exclusion creates spiritual ramifications and repercussions, and these force dynamic changes in intelligence. When the logic and authority is bona fide, those changes are evolutionary. When something is both shastrically and logically confirmed, it automatically shatters and constrains anything which has previously covered it.

 

Based in no small measure upon deductions rooted in Prabhupada's teachings, this document will work to concentrate the mind. The big lies will be broken down. Once you are awakened from their intoxicating influence, the dismantling of the bogus philosophies underpinning them will inexorably proceed via the domino effect. The psychic shackles will fall off, and you will experience a natural freedom of mind and intelligence conducive to the development of genuine Krishna consciousness.

 

Let's begin by analyzing the May room conversation. One thing requires immediate clarification: Prabhupada could have gone into much greater detail than he did in answering the questions posed that day--but he didn't. He answered only in a general manner, and his answers were almost cryptic.

 

Over the years, there has been an inordinate amount of quibbling and wrangling in connection to his responses that day. One reason why this has ensued is the obvious fact that Prabhupada was rather ambiguous in his answers. This may be an apparent contradiction, but a spiritual master of Prabhupada's realization can be both truthful and ambiguous at the same time. Human reason can only partially comprehend this opulence of the mahabhagavat.

 

What was his reason for this ambiguity? Was it to allow the warring factions of today ample fodder for their arguments? Some rittviks allege that the tape has been tampered with and altered. Was it to leave the tape of this transcript open to alteration? Was it to give those who would later on use the tape for their own purposes enough rope with which to hang themselves?

 

Phalena-pariciyate. An uttama-adhikari knows the motives of anyone he contacts, particularly if they are his disciples. Here come two of his leading disciples, who, within less than a year, will join nine others in falsely claiming themselves to be mahabhagavats. In the process, they will create specific (concocted) divisions of the world in which they are absolute authorities and incredible enjoyers. Tri-kala-jna is a minor mystic power, as far as a real mahabhagavat is concerned.

 

A genuine guru can answer questions and deal with his disciples in any way in which he sees fit. He is even free to mislead someone, if that person's question is tainted. He can choose to answer equivocally or ambiguously when uncomfortable with certain questions. If he does not want to be pinned down about something, no one can pin him down--although he is so expert that the questioner may conclude that the guru was indeed pinned down and forced to answer.

 

The bona fide spiritual master need not tailor answers to nonsense questions in order to fit the matrix of someone's personal ambitions. Yet, with transcendental genius, he can answer concisely, truthfully, ambiguously, and even open Pandora's box--all at the same time during the same conversation.

 

Using nominal acronyms for the leading secretaries, here are the essential excerpts from that famous conversation of May, 1977:

 

SDG: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.

 

Why should a disciple be asking this kind of a question? It is the guru who should bring up this topic--the thought that he would soon leave--in order to clarify what is to be done after that. At this time (May, 1977), everyone (most everyone) was hoping and believing that Prabhupada would recover and remain with us.

 

He had made statements that he would do so, and he had recovered from serious illnesses before. If such a topic is to be brought up by anyone, it should be brought up only by the spiritual master. And they "particularly" want to know about initiations after he is no longer us(!)

 

The question contains two mutually exclusive aspects. One of those divisions is in relation to the backlog of potential initiates who have had their initiations delayed due to Prabhupada's illness. The other is the touchy and inappropriate topic about an uncertain time when Prabhupada will no longer be physically manifest.

 

These two questions should not have been fused into one. At the very least, there is rasabhasa present in such (con)fusion. The question appears to be legitimate, but it has an inappropriate and insidious nature to it. As such, Prabhupada deals with the appropriate aspect of it--in connection to the backlog:

 

PRABHUPADA: Yes, I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acharyas.

 

"After this is settled up" refers to something previously discussed. It is some kind of management arrangement, which requires a little time for implementation. This indicates why the names (the recommendations) were released later, in July. This also belies the rittvik contention that the May conversation and the July letter were not related. They were.

 

Prabhupada is going to recommend some officiating acharyas; he's going to name some rittviks. Nothing earth-shattering in this. It had been the standard for carrying out the formalities of initiation for years previously. The system had remained dormant for awhile. Now, Prabhupada was going to select some of his senior men to re-institute it. This was only a fantastic development as far as the newcomers (desperately waiting for their initiations) were concerned.

 

The term "rittvik-acharya" had also been used for years within the movement. "Officiating acharya" is just a slightly different term for the exact same thing. Often Prabhupada was present on the vyasasana when rittviks performed the ceremony on his behalf.

 

No one considered those rittviks to be acharyas at that time, not in the sense that they were actually giving any form of diksa when they performed the fire yajna and some of the chanting. It is disingenuous to put any emphasis on the inclusion of the word "acharya" (as in "officiating acharyas") in Prabhupada's answer. It is absurd to make this word (in the context his using it) into something which it never was while Prabhupada was with us--and which he never meant it to be.

 

He answers only the first part of the question, which could also be summarized as asking: "What should we do about initiations in the immediate future, in the next few months?" Answer: "I'm going to name some rittviks to again perform the initiation ceremonies." The simplistic contention of today's rittvik movement that Prabhupada answered both of SDG's questions completely and simultaneously is without foundation.

 

His answer makes far more sense when considered from the perspective that he is only answering the first question--which is the only appropriate one within SDG's fused query. SDG may say that he is "particularly" interested in having the second part of his question answered, but Prabhupada is under no compulsion to satisfy that desire.

 

TKG correctly understands that Prabhupada is answering only the first part of the question and is referring to rittviks. As such, it is clarified:

 

TKG: Is that called rittvik-acharya?

 

PRABHUPADA: Rittvik, yes.

 

The officiating-acharya is the same as the rittvik-acharya. For short, both can be, and have often been, called rittvik. The rittvik had been part of the fire yajna ceremony during initiation for years in Prabhupada's movement. This system had been operational less than one year previously. The question and the answer are both succinct, but some heavier maya now enters:

 

SDG: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the . . .

 

PRABHUPADA: He's guru. He's guru.

 

Prabhupada nips the question. This is fitting, because it contains the clause ". . . that person who gives the initiation. . ." If someone actually "gives initiation," then he's a genuine diksa guru. The guru gives diksa, simple thing.

 

Corporate ISKCON uses this section, as well as what follows, to push their assertion (admittedly no more than an "assumption") that Prabhupada made rittviks--and, at the same time, empowered them (recognized them) as genuine diksa gurus. This is the fulcrum of legitimacy and justification upon which corporate ISKCON's implementation of this May tape pivots. The question (which, remember, was cut off) leaned in this direction.

 

Further commentary on the part of the two leading secretaries shows that this is what they were thinking. However, it is not what Prabhupada says. Nowhere in this tape does he say such a thing. Neither does he imply it. He is dealing with a certain kind of question, from particular disciples.

 

There is no specific reference--at any time or at any place--to Prabhupada having established a rittvik-in-absentia system during the eleven years of his preaching to the West. As such, that dispensation has had to rely upon ultra-weak (practically non-existent) circumstantial and indirect evidence. Similarly, there is no specific evidence in this tape that Prabhupada recommended and simultaneously empowered rittviks as self-realized souls, diksa gurus (at the same time, appointing them to the positions and duties of rittvik, with diksa to be activated only after Prabhupada's disappearance).

 

Anyone can jump to an assumption, but there are inherent contradictions in assuming this dispensation (rittviks made diksas simultaneously) on only circumstantial evidence. A dispensation always requires much more than assumption and shaky circumstantial evidence; it requires clear evidence, clear proof.

 

The next question is influenced by pramada, inattentive hearing:

 

SDG: But he does it on your behalf.

 

Due to the inclusion of the preposition ("but"), it's obvious that SDG is mixing rittvik with diksa. All of Prabhupada's disciples at this time knew that rittviks were not diksa gurus. Due to misapprehension, SDG now seeks confirmation for this new idea. There can be no confirmation forthcoming, because the justification for the question is only present in his own mind (and TKG's mind, as will be shown subsequently). It is not what Prabhupada has been either thinking or saying.

 

Instead, Prabhupada hears SDG's implied question only in terms of its direct context, i.e., ". . . on your behalf." When "on your behalf" is used, it can only be in reference to rittvik. Rittvik was asked about previously, rittvik has been discussed in all of Prabhupada's answers thus far, so Prabhupada answers the interrogatory (despite the fact that most transcripts do not add the question mark) in terms of rittvik. This does add to further confusion on the part of the secretaries, but Prabhupada cannot be blamed for that.

 

PRABHUPADA: Yes, that's a formality, because in my presence one should not become guru. So, on my behalf, on my order--amara ajnaya guru hana--be actually guru. But on my order.

 

It should be noted here that becoming a genuine diksa guru (far above the status of a mere rittvik) cannot be done by the disciple during the presence or physical manifestation of his guru. It can be done during the guru's presence if the guru orders it:

 

'I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program."?Letter. 68-12-11.4

 

As early as 1968, Prabhupada planned for his disciples to reach the realized purification and qualification and initiate disciples with him. There is no indication that he had a program to leave his body before this time (1975). The direct interpretation of this letter is that he would still be physically manifest while these initiations, by his own disciples as diksa gurus in their own right, was taking place. This direct interpretation is buttressed by the fact that Prabhupada did remain with us during all of 1975.

 

Any and all of Prabhupada's disciples were eligible to realize brahman, paramatma, or bhagavan at any time while he was physically manifest. Indeed, these were the goals, as far as consciousness was concerned. As per the above-mentioned 12-4-68 letter, if any of his disciples reached a level of purification affording them the status of diksa guru, Prabhupada could (and wanted to) order them to be diksa guru and initiate disciples directly. He never did this, however. The order never came. Why not?

 

Was it simply due to the formal etiquette (mentioned in the May tape, as well as in some other letters) that disciples should not initiate in his presence? A general etiquette (such as this one) may have been used by Prabhupada in order to discourage unfit disciples from prematurely jumping to the platform of perfect men, but it would have never restricted him from ordering someone to be guru.

 

The guru must be self-realized, he must be a perfect man. The etiquette argument flounders in the face of the 12-4-68 letter. There's a more direct and obvious explanation. A mere five weeks previous to this May conversation, Prabhupada was having a private chat with TKG in Bombay (4-22-77). Here are some excerpts:

 

PRABHUPADA: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?

 

TKG: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it's a clear fact that we are all conditioned souls. So, we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible . . .

 

PRABHUPADA: Hmmm . . .

 

TKG: . . . but not now.

 

PRABHUPADA: Yes. I shall produce some gurus. I shall say who is guru: 'Now, you become acharya. You become authorized.' I am waiting for that. You become--all--acharya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete. (emphases added)

 

"I retire completely" is not the same as nitya-lila-pravistha. This also confirms that Prabhupada wanted his disciples to be initiating--if they were qualified to do so--during his physical presence.

 

Later in this same conversation, TKG confirms, in connection to the chief topic discussed, what Prabhupada had warned about many times previously, viz., that manufacturing a guru from an unqualified man was a bogus prescription for spreading Krishna consciousness:

 

TKG: No rubber stamp.

 

PRABHUPADA: Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective.

 

So, what's the obvious and logical interpretation? What's the mukhya-vritti (as opposed to so many superfluous gauna-vrittis) as to why Prabhupada never recognized any of his disciples as diksa gurus? What's the direct explanation why he never ordered any of them to begin initiating during his presence? It was because the training was not complete. No one was advanced and purified enough to give diksa. The order to be actually guru was discussed, but it was never given. It was certainly not given during the May conversation of 1977.

 

In that room conversation, Prabhupada is only discussing, in a generic and somewhat ambiguous way. general principles, already well established. He is not saying that the rittviks to be named a little later (as it turned out, on July 9th) will already, at that time, be fully trained up and automatically set to explode as diksas after he departs. Not only is there no solid evidence or proof for such an idea, it also makes no sense.

 

Prabhupada was quite ill in May of 1977. If he saw even one disciple actually fit to give diksa, why would he not encourage him to immediately do so? There was a backlog of newcomers, with so much vikarma to unload. They all were eagerly anticipating becoming initiated. If one, or, better yet, eleven or so of his disciples were fit to take on the responsibility of guru, it is only reasonable that Prabhupada would have been delighted for them to have done so at that time. It couldn't hurt in the matter of his convalescence.

 

Although it is nowhere definitively stated, corporate ISKCON maintains that, nevertheless, it is "reasonable" to assume that Prabhupada's appointment of rittviks was simultaneously an empowerment and recognition of bona fide diksa gurus:

 

"Obviously, Srila Prabhupada felt that of all the people, these people are particularly qualified. So it stands to reason that, after Prabhupada's departure, they would go on--if they desired--to initiate." ?TKG. 1980. Topanga Canyon Talks

 

 

 

". . . (T)here can be no doubt that the said conversation (of May 28, 1977) took place, and that Srila Prabhupada did in fact state categorically that the disciples whom he would name would accept disciples of their own, who (such accepted disciples) would be his grand disciples after his departure. . . (the) opening statement (of the July 9th letter) establishes, without a doubt, that the appointment of the eleven ritviks stood within the context of the previously established desire of His Divine Grace on May 28th that his disciples would accept disciples of their own after his departure." ?Prabhupada's Order, page 15.

 

They are holding up three fingers to your face and telling you that you should be seeing four. Categorically, it should be four. Without a doubt it should be four. It stands to reason that it is four, so you are encouraged to assume that it is indeed four, despite the fact that it is obviously only three. That the leading secretaries are now convinced the appointment of rittviks will be a simultaneous appointment of diksas is all the more evident as the conversation proceeds:

 

SDG: So they may also be considered your disciples?

 

PRABHUPADA: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?

 

Due to a false premise, the question cannot be answered. As such, Prabhupada picked up on the last words ("your disciples") that the people about to be initiated are his disciples--just like every other devotee initiated by rittviks on his behalf has been, and continues to be, his disciple. A contradictory question is prone to create a breakdown in communication, and that is apparent here. Prabhupada is interrupted as he tries to understand just where this question is coming from, so the answer given by His Divine Grace is ambiguous, due to the interruption. TKG thinks that he can clarify SDG's question:

 

TKG: No. He's asking that, these rittvik-acharyas, they're officiating, giving diksa. The people who they give diksa to, whose disciples are they?

 

TKG directly joins rittvik with diksa here, and Prabhupada chooses not to dispel the ignorance. After all, he was just starting to ask them some questions and was unceremoniously interrupted. Why, therefore, should he be inclined to go out of his way and enlighten these people?

 

Prabhupada would remain for over five more months. Many newcomers would be initiated during that time. They all correctly believed that Prabhupada was their diksa guru. That correct understanding is verified in the July 9th letter, as well as in another room conversation. If the rittviks of this time period (July-November, 1977) had actually been giving diksa, then their status as diksa guru would be predominant, automatically. Hridayananda Swami's argument that a rittvik-acharya is anyone who performs the ceremonials of the initiation would then have its proper application.

 

In the early years, Prabhupada himself directly performed the fire yajna. As such, he was a rittvik-acharya, but only in the formal Vedic sense that a rittvik is anyone who performs the ceremony, lights the fire, and chants the appropriate mantra--whether its done on his own behalf or on the behalf of someone else. Prabhupada's status as diksa guru was transcendentally far superior to his also being, technically, a rittvik-acharya. As such, he was never called nor considered a rittvik, because his status as diksa guru was predominant.

 

Similarly, if Prabhupada was indeed appointing rittviks who were now qualified diksas, every initiation ceremony they would perform from that time onward--including while he was physically present--would entail that they were initiating disciples themselves, giving diksa. Technically being rittviks, performers of the ceremonials, would not demote their true status, i.e., they could not actually be called rittviks--not in the Hare Krishna sense of the term (in the sense of how it was used during Prabhpada's time in the movement).

 

As such, the only evidence for corporate ISKCON's "reasonable assumption" becomes one small (and previous) part of this May conversation. Prabhupada had said: ". . . because in my presence one should not become guru." That's it! That's all they've got. Is this, without a doubt, any kind of strong evidence?

 

Can this be said to constitute a place where Prabhupada stated categorically, confirmed in no uncertain terms, that the rittviks were simultaneously appointed to diksa guru status? Should we believe that it stands to reason that Prabhupada made rittviks into diksas? But only they could be activated as diksas . . . sometime in the uncertain future after he departs . . . because of that all-encompassing and overriding etiquette.

 

Archaeologists who push Darwinism really need that missing link in order to prove their case. There have been a couple of such missing links apparently discovered over the decades. Piltdown man was proven a hoax, a fabricated skeleton made in someone's back yard. But then there was "Nebraska Man."

 

Nebraska Man supposedly established the missing link. Almost nobody believes that anymore, but you can find mention of him in older biology and history books still circulating in secondary schools today. Now, you may imagine that some well-preserved gorilla-cum-human skeleton was dug up in Nebraska, and this was the basis for Nebraska Man. However, that's not how Nebraska Man was discovered. Actually, what archaeologists discovered in the cornfields of Nebraska was one tooth, and from that one tooth, Nebraska Man--in his full glory--was constructed as proof of the missing link. It was the proof of one tooth.

 

The missing link between July, 1977 and the glorious appointment of mahabhagavat uttama-adhikaries in March of 1978 was the so-called creation of the rittvik-cum-diksa guru. This creature is said to have functioned on the rittvik side of the equation from July of 1977 to November 14th of that year. Then, there was a four-month interlude or so, where he didn't do anything at all. Ah, but realizing his actual status as a full blown diksa guru, that side of this creature manifested in the spring of 1978.

 

And the proof for this? One clause in one sentence: ". . . because in my presence one should not become guru." This must categorically be accepted as the proof, despite the fact that Prabhupada both approved and wanted his disciples to become diksa gurus in his presence--as long as the training was complete.

 

It must be accepted without a doubt, despite the fact that such a creature would in fact automatically be giving diksa himself whenever he performed the initiation ceremony. This creation still must stand to reason, despite the fact that Prabhupada would have every transcendental motive (especially in light of his ill health) to have qualified disciples take charge and initiate these new people (after first taking on all of their many lifetimes of vikarma).

 

Still, since the GBC says (now, although how many of us even heard about this concoction. . . errr . . . creation, until rather recently?) that there is proof for it. This must be accepted, despite the fact that such a thing is unprecedented in the known history or tradition of the Gaudiya-Vaishnava-sampradaya. Where is the established precedent for this rittvik/diksa-guru-activated-in-the-future idea? Which line has done like this? Now, maybe some sahajiya-sampradaya has done something like this, but that should never even be presented as evidence, what to speak of proof.

 

The seeds needed the soil, and they found some very fertile soil indeed in Navadvipa. There was that infamous advice: "Rittvik-acharya--then it becomes as good as acharya." There was so much advice. There was: "My guru, he is jagat-guru." There was: "Just put on the uniform, and automatically you will know how to be a soldier." There was the advice to create the zonal acharya.

 

So, on the basis of that Navadvipa advice in the spring of 1978, we are to "reasonably assume" that Prabhupada manufactured rittviks who were simultaneously diksa-gurus--but, in good taste and Vaishnava etiquette, had to wait until he departed before actively initiating their own disciples. "Rittvik-acharya--then it becomes as good as acharya." If that advice constitutes the Gaudiya Vaishnava justification for this so-called hybrid initiator, then it amounts to the proof of one tooth--one very sharp tooth, considering what we have reaped from all of that Navadvipa advice over the last two decades.

 

Corporate ISKCON rightly dismisses the rittviks emphasis of the word "henceforward" in the July 9th letter as not being nearly enough to justify and prove the rittvik-in-absentia dispensation. We shall be discussing this in a subsequent article but concur with corporate ISKCON on this point completely. However, it does the same thing!

 

It creates a convenient hybrid on ultra-weak and, for all practical purposes, non-existent evidence. Corporate ISKCON claims that this concoction justifies its own process for continuation of the disciplic succession. The only thing that is clear about all of this is that Prabhupada's disciples who want to avoid the anomalies of rittvik are forced to accept a different kind of wacky dispensation--if they want to remain in good standing with corporate ISKCON, that is.

 

Both dispensations are shaky, to say the least. Both have no precedent in Vaishnava tradition and history, and that's why they are (or must be considered to be) dispensations. Both create immeasurable ramifications and consequences--especially after they have been accepted and pushed for over twenty-five years (in rittvik's case, only fifteen). Neither of them can be even compared to Prabhupada's well-documented adjustments, like his personal performance of marriage ceremonies, etc.

 

Sweeping declarations about the process for carrying out the mission amount to far more than those minor adjustments. Ways-and-means preaching adaptations are not overly consequential. They are not changes having an all-pervasive quality. Also, those minor adjustments were both clearly and directly authorized by Prabhupada while he was with us.

 

These new dispensations--in diametrical opposition to one another--are very different from mere adjustments. This is all the more so, because they rely on indirect evidence, as well as faulty interpretations of that "evidence." Neither can indisputably establish their siddhantas by presenting even one clear statement by Prabhupada in order to verify them--although each of them actually requires just such a definitive declaration in order to be accepted, what to speak of institutionalized.

 

TKG says, ". . . these rittvik acharyas, they're officiating, giving diksa." Prabhupada is going to reply, but this reply must be understood in context of the whole conversation. Proper understanding of Prabhupada's specific reply here is really the essence of the whole study. Corporate ISKCON has chosen to understand it in one way, but there are so many contradictions and inconsistencies in their explanation.

 

Over and above this, that explanation is blatantly self-serving, allowing all "diksa gurus" appointed by the GBC to claim an initial legitimacy for what directly led to the holocaust of 1978. Such an initial legitimacy card, combined with error conditioning, can then be used to explain away all of the severe illnesses and spiritual deaths (resulting from the cold drafts within the corporate ISKCON aham-car) since the halcyon days of the zonal acharyas.

 

Corporate ISKCON interprets the question and reply in the following sophisticated way. TKG combined the rittvik and the diksa by saying that the rittvik is "giving diksa." He does not directly say this, but both concepts (rittvik and diksa) are in the same sentence. So the missing link is, at least in TKG's mind, established. Since Prabhupada does not directly tackle that potential linkage, clarify it, or correct it, he must have accepted it. Prabhupada's answer clearly deals only with diksa, so the rittviks must now be considered simultaneously diksas.

 

Any logical person, when reading this part of the exchange between TKG and Prabhupada, would readily admit that there is no obvious interpretation. It is open to any number of interpretations. As such, the direct interpretation is that, in and of itself, it is ambiguous. The direct interpretation can be further expanded to mean that this specific section can only be accurately interpreted in context of the conversation as a whole.

 

For example, let's analyze in this way:

 

TKG: No. He's asking that, these rittvik acharyas, they're officiating, giving diksa. The people who they give diksa to, whose disciples are they?

 

PRABHUPADA: They're his disciples.

 

Here's a different sophisticated logic. It has already been shown that a technical interpretation of the rittvik-acharya is anyone who performs the ceremonials of the fire yajna. Technically, even Prabhupada was that kind of rittvik-acharya in the early years. As such, a diksa guru can also be a rittvik-acharya during the half-hour or so that he conducts the fire yajna and chants the mantras. He is then a "rittvik acharya, officiating, giving diksa." The logic does hold up. And, as a bona fide diksa guru, the initiated disciples are, of course, "his disciples."

 

Now, is that how we interpret this specific part of the conversation? No, but it can't be dismissed as a possibility. Our interpretation: Prabhupada chooses not to dispel the ignorance of mixing apples and oranges. Some of Prabhupada's disciples are approaching him and asking about giving diksa. They obviously have some aspirations in this area.

 

Prabhupada does want his disciples to become qualified and become guru, to give initiations. He also has such an aspiration for them (such as in "one day it will come to that" in a letter to Hansadutta). So, he begins to talk about it, in general terms.

 

The actual question centers around someone who is "giving diksa." The fact that both SDG and TKG fused rittvik and diksa is simply neglected by Prabhupada. If any of his disciples eventually become qualified to be diksa guru, there's certainly a significant chance that some or most of them may have once performed some rittvik service for His Divine Grace. As such, some of the rittviks Prabhupada is going to appoint may, one day, actually become diksa gurus.

 

So Prabhupada does not predicate the mind of TKG here by clarifying for him what he should already well know. The essence of what Prabhupada is being asked is: "When we become diksa gurus, whose disciples will those new initiates be?" The answer is obvious, and that's the answer Prabhupada gives. He completely centers on the diksa aspect of the question, and it makes perfect sense that he would do so.

 

 

 

If someone is actually giving diksa, he's guru. If someone is giving you money from behind the counter of an authorized bank, he's a bank clerk. Prabhupada is laying the groundwork for again appointing some rittviks. While there are rittviks, he will be the diksa guru. The question, nevertheless, has gone from the subject of rittvik to the subject of diksa. Prabhupada's answer is fundamental: "If someone is giving diksa, he's guru, and those initiated by that diksa are his disciples." As aforementioned, this could be done even while he was physically manifest, but only on his order.

 

Up to this point in the conversation, he has only dealt with the topic of continuing initiations while he is still present, in context of the backlog. Until now, he has not even touched upon (and we believe that he was uncomfortable with it even having been brought up) the subject of initiations after he is no longer with us.

 

PRABHUPADA: They're his disciples.

 

TKG: They're his disciples.

 

PRABHUPADA: Who is initiating. He is grand disciple.

 

Oh, how the rittviks detest that last sentence! In many of their transcripts, they write it as "His grand disciple." Of course, "he is" and "he's" and "his" all sound pretty much alike on tape, and this is particularly so if that sound has the Bengali flavor of English to it. It was the rittvik's tremendous aversion to this last sentence which led to all the brouhaha about dubbing, tampering, and the like. It also led them to the childish argument that Prabhupada must have been speaking in the third person throughout the whole conversation-- simply because, in one brief sentence, he (according to their transcripts) speaks in the third person.

 

The conversation has now gone into the area of future (with either Prabhupada manifest or not manifest) initiations by qualified disciples, who have become genuine diksa gurus.

 

For greater elucidation, the last sentence could be read: "He (the person receiving diksa) is (my) grand disciple." This part is not difficult to comprehend. If summarized in a different way, it would read: "If you are diksa gurus, when you initiate, those are your disciples. Any disciple you thus initiate, he will not be my direct disciple. He will be my grand disciple, and I will be his grand (grandfather) guru." It should have been clear.

 

SDG: Yes.

 

TKG: That's clear.

 

SDG: Then we have a question concerning . . .

 

PRABHUPADA: When I order 'You become guru,' he becomes regular guru, that's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple.

 

They say it's all clear, but Prabhupada sees further need for clarification. So, very concisely, he attempts to clear things up a little more. There are only eighteen words in his reply, but it contains a very profound message and covers a quite an area. Let's look at the first word: "When."

 

When was anybody ordered to be a rittvik-cum-diksa-for-after-departure? Private and unverifiable room conversations are of very little value here, particularly since the person who may claim that he received that order may not be a disinterested party. However, that aspect of the controversy is somewhat tangential.

 

The real issue is "When was the clear and specific order given that rittviks automatically became diksa gurus after Prabhupada's disappearance." Answer: never. There's no proof of it. This conversation doesn't establish it, except if you use obtuse gauna-vritti and circumstantial evidence via a sophisticated mode of Alice In Wonderland logic.

 

"Regular guru" means a guru still under regulation or sadhana-bhakti. That's all. This status (regular guru) is achieved at brahman realization, which is the beginning of the madhyama-adhikari platform of devotion. At raga-bhakti, spontaneous devotion, a guru is no longer a regular guru, what to speak of at the uttama platform.

 

The guru must be self-realized. He must be a perfect man. Then, he receives the order--not that he dons the uniform and thus, through the mystic school of hard knocks, learns how to become a perfect man. If Prabhupada saw that any of his disciples were realized souls (and, just five weeks previously, he was commenting on how he was waiting for the training to be complete), he would not have said "when." He would have said: "Now." There would have been no need for rittviks, either.

 

And notice how he speaks in terms of "regular" guru. Less than a year later, eleven dishonest individuals would falsely claim that they were uttama-adhikaris, far beyond any connection to the restrictions of sadhana. Prabhupada was not waiting for his disciples to become God-realized in May of 1977, however. He was simply hoping that maybe one or two of them may become anartha-nivritti, then realize brahman, and then receive the order and become regular gurus.

 

"He becomes disciple of my disciple" really bothers the rittviks, but is there any real difficulty in understanding that sentence? When (if and when) one of Prabhupada's disciples "becomes guru," anyone initiated by that direct disciple of Prabhupada becomes the disciple of Prabhupada's disciple. Just see.

 

The July letter (7-9-77) goes on to appoint rittviks. It makes no mention whatsoever of appointing diksa gurus. It makes no mention whatsoever that these rittviks will automatically become diksa gurus after Prabhupada departs physical manifestation (nitya-lila-pravistha).

 

That rittviks only is the topic of the July letter is verified elsewhere at that time in the summer of 1977. We shall elucidate all of this in a subsequent article.

 

Have we presented the positive alternative to all of this here? Not really, but we've given some hints. Actually, uprooting and exposing negatives (disguised as transcendental positives) is a preliminary, and very necessary, part of the process toward the positive alternative. Look for further articles on this essential topic, but we shall leave you with a bit of a hint about it--before summarizing the contents of this treatise:

 

"You have taken the right view of the importance of my books. Books will always remain . . . I started my movement with my books . . . and if there are no more temples, then the books shall remain."?Letter. 73-11-9.8

 

The May conversation is dealt with differently by the promulgators of the two great dispensations. The rittviks deal with it in a childish and primitive manner. They sledgehammer it. They are unscrupulous in using two tactics which cannot mutually co-exist. By the first tactic, they say that the initial question and answer is the only real important section of the tape. SDG says "particularly" he wants to know what is to be done after Prabhupada is no longer manifest, but the question is in two parts. Prabhupada answers the part connected to the backlog of potential initiates and confirms that he will soon name some rittviks again to initiate those people on his behalf. Prabhupada says, "Rittvik, yes."

 

For the rittviks, that means case closed: Prabhupada appointed rittviks for posterity, because SDG says that he (SDG) is particularly interested in knowing how initiations are to be carried out after Prabhupada's departure. They wipe out the substance of the whole conversation in one fell swoop. Can there be any real sincerity in such simplistic thinking? As Prabhupada said in the Honolulu airport: "Dull-witted must be cheated." The rittviks go on to use contorted arguments in order to explain away the rest of the tape.

 

They also employ another device. Just in case all of the holes in their logic are exposed (to the point that some of their potential followers begin to have doubts), they wipe out those doubts with another fell swoop: the tape was tampered with!!! Those sections which are difficult to explain away? Dubbed. If the tape was tampered with, then why make any comment about it at all? If such was the case, then it has no authoritative value. However, they like that first part of it, because Prabhupada says, "Rittvik, yes." So, just like children, they want to have their cake and eat it, too.

 

The rittviks use a similar tactic in abolishing most of the May tape connection to the July letter. They love this letter, because it appoints rittviks and nothing more. They say that there's little if any connection between the May conversation and the July letter, but we've already showed evidence which casts considerable doubt upon that view. The key ingredient in the July letter--as far as the rittviks are concerned--is another proof of the tooth, viz., the inclusion of "henceforward" in it.

 

Corporate ISKCON also cites the July letter, but they emphasize its relation to the May conversation. The July letter is really only important to corporate ISKCON in one sense: it names the rittviks. Since these are the men who are now supposedly both rittviks and (dormant on automatic pilot) diksas, the arrangement is now complete. The GBC and its loyal apologists thus analyze both the May conversation and the July letter in a sophisticated (and somewhat insidious) way. Via a polar opposite style of the rittviks, corporate ISKCON comes to a polar opposite siddhanta. This siddhanta justifies their unprecedented--and unproven--claim that Prabhupada appointed eleven joint rittviks and diksas.

 

Have we covered the full range of arguments for both dispensations? Of course not. Such an impossible attempt at discovery would require a callous psychic disposition completely practiced to the endlessly mutable layers of devious siddhanta arguments. If any devotee wants to get into doing that, viz., exploring this whole web of "logic" and sophistry, he may first need a tune-up.

 

We have only touched the outskirts here. We've only analyzed the big lies up to a point. Devotees who want to get fully into such missing link maya may first have to seek out Nebraska Man.

 

OM TAT SAT. HARE KRISHNA.

[Guruvani 0]

Srila Prabhupada always preached in terms of "joining ISKCON", "becoming a member of ISKCON", "joining the Krishna consciousness movement" etc. etc.

Initiations in ISKCON always were initiations into the Vaishnava cult and not initiation into singular discipleship.

 

Initiation in ISKCON is initiation into ISKCON.

It was the same thing when Srila Prabhupada was here and it is the same thing after he is gone.

 

It's initiation into the acharya sampradaya by the authorized representatives any way you cut it.

 

All this huff over a bunch of external formality doesn't mean anything anyway.

 

If one has a siksha guru then if he doesn't have a diksha guru it is no big deal. If one has sadhu sanga, shastra and siksha guru, then one really doesn't need some diksha guru to give some useless Vedic mantras anyway.

 

Maybe we should start to understand that the siksha guru can do anything and everything the diksha guru can. A siksha guru can deliver one back to Godhead, even if there is no diksha guru.

 

Diksha is some Vedic fomality.

When a devotee loves Krishna, he doesn't need any diksha guru.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Prabhupāda: And his wife takes four bottles of Nax Pomica.(?) If we

said that “Dr. Bannerji prescribes Nax Pomica(?) and different

(indistinct) to every person,” therefore we finished the Nax Pomica(?)

bottle very quickly. He was the biggest customer for Nax Pomica,

Tincture Nax Pomica.(?) So he… And he was very famous doctor. And

Abhinas Chandra Bannerji, he went to Allahabad very poor

condition. Then, by medical practice, he became very rich man. I

think simply by the mercy of Nax Pomica.(?) So one must know the

right way. (coughs)

 

This should be Nux Vomica - homeopatic medicine made from strychnine