Guru has his relative side and his absolute side...

[Guest guest]

How many times have we heard in SB class that "KC is very scientific"?

 

"...So you have a scientific mind and I want you to use it in the service of Krsna..." SPL letter to Bhakta Dennis 25 September 1974 [siksamrta p.262]

 

This is from a seventh grade science book: The six steps of scientific inquiry:

 

The nature of scientific inquiry is to:

1) communicate

2) pose questions

3) develop a hypothesis

4) design an experiment

5) collect and interpret data

6) draw conclusions

 

I feel that it might be helpful to use this in our approach to spiritual life. Otherwise how will we make good decisions that stand up to the test of time? Using only your "ecstatic" emotions and "good vibes" feelings might prove to be incorrect.

 

When we first approach spiritual life, or ANY task, there is a "honeymoon period". We meet someone with a towel on his head looking like a Smurf

and we think, "Aaawww, isn;t that cute." Or someone looks at us in a

certain way and we think, "Aaaahhh, how deep."

 

Or someone reads our mind and we think, "My goodness! That is really

deep! Whew!!!" Or someone gives a class and we think, "Omigod, how

did he know that's been on my mind?!!!"

 

Well, some people have siddhis. So be careful. They can attract you, convince you of things, read your mind. But just because someone has

siddhis doesn't necessarily mean anything more than they have siddhis.

 

My suggestion is be very careful and conduct your search for The Absolute Truth like you are doing a science experiment. There are Scientific Theories

[Theory of Relativity, Theory of Evolution, Theory of the Big Bang] and

Scientific Laws [Law of Gravity, Law of Thermodynamics].

 

Learning to discern between Spiritual Theory and Spiritual Law might be one way of informing how to discriminate between relative and absolute in the search for the Absolute Truth.

[Guest guest]

[quote name='theist

If not how can we recognize?[/quote']

 

We can't! Therefore the Lord says:

 

 

Chapter 9. The Most Confidential Knowledge

TEXT 11

 

avajananti mam mudha

manusim tanum asritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-mahesvaram

 

SYNONYMS

 

avajananti--deride; mam--Me; mudhah--foolish men; manusim--in human form; tanum--body; asritam--assuming; param--transcendental; bhavam--nature; ajanantah--not knowing; mama--Mine; bhuta--everything that be; maha-isvaram--the supreme proprietor.

TRANSLATION

 

Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.

[theist 1]

Guest, ( post #25)

 

You are right. It is all there plan to see. We have been warned. I have really neglected the 11th and twelve cantos even more than the ten before them.

 

Often we criticize other practioners of yoga paths for falling for gurus who walk around in flowing robes, with long hair and beards, flower garlanded and with the whole guru scene around them, yet we do the same thing just in a slightly different context.

 

We have to find the fault ultimately with ourselves. We don't properly desire the real thing so Krsna through maya gives us a dream version to play with until we come to our senses and desire only Him. Then I believe he will impart the vision to us to see and hear the inspired side of His representative. Certainly by our own speculation we will never get the correct picture.

[theist 1]

 

We can't! Therefore the Lord says:

 

 

Chapter 9. The Most Confidential Knowledge

TEXT 11

 

avajananti mam mudha

manusim tanum asritam

param bhavam ajananto

mama bhuta-mahesvaram

 

SYNONYMS

 

avajananti--deride; mam--Me; mudhah--foolish men; manusim--in human form; tanum--body; asritam--assuming; param--transcendental; bhavam--nature; ajanantah--not knowing; mama--Mine; bhuta--everything that be; maha-isvaram--the supreme proprietor.

TRANSLATION

 

Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be.

 

Agreed. We can't know Him or His representative by our own devices. Maya will always be able to trick us.

 

However Krsna does promise to enlighten us with transcendental knowledge from within so we can know but only by grace.

 

"By grace ye are saved and not by works (karma or jnana) lest any man should boast." -New Testament

[Guest guest]

"Last night as I lay sleeping, I dreamt

O. marvellous error --

That there was a beehive here inside my heart

And the golden bees were making white combs

And sweet honey from all my failures"

 

-- Machado de Assis

 

 

Part of the task of middle age is "Ego Integrity versus Despair" according to

Abraham Maslow. In order to make "sense" of our time on earth, we need to

go back and reflect on the past.

 

Then if our perception of the past does not jibe with who we are today, we need to reconcile it, such as by having these discussions with people who were, for all intents and purposes, our college roommates and buddies with us "back in the day".

 

i.e. there are some people who dropped out of college in order to participate in KC. So our guru-bhai, godsiblings, are like the people who were in our alternative reality fraternity and sorority. We spent a large portion of our youth sacrificing ourselves for the ideals of KC.

 

[sigh!] "I wish I knew then what I know now" about spiritual life and what it says in the Twelfth Canto. However, I didn't know it back then, as it had not yet been translated. And no one felt it was necessary to call it to our attention at the time, for whatever reason that might have been.

 

This forum is a useful venue for integrating our past with what we know in the present, so that we don't despair.

 

Most importantly, I feel it is important, even imperative, to share what we have learned with the next generation: the knowledge that has come at such a steep price and high cost, which some have paid for dearly with their lives.

 

If we don't do that, I feel there is some karmic reaction for keeping what we

have learned at such a steep cost and with so many tears to ourselves.

[theist 1]

 

Most importantly, I feel it is important, even imperative, to share what we have learned with the next generation: the knowledge that has come at such a steep price and high cost, which some have paid for dearly with their lives.

[theist 1]

Coming to understand who we really should be hearing from in terms of God consciousness is very serious business. Really the most important decision we can make, overriding every other question that we have had, or will have in the entirety of our trip through the material sphere.

 

Nevertheless people most often spend more time deciding which university to apply to then deciding who to hear from. We too readily go along with the predominant flow of opinion. And in doing so we miss the oppurtunity to hear from Krsna's inspired devotee. The exception is we receive some unusual grace from Krsna.

 

But we learn from our mistakes and advance anyway in time.

 

Here though the point is somewhat different from who is a pretender and who is inspired. My reading of Sridhar Maharaja's quotes from above is that the authentic guru himself has an inspired side which is his real guru side along with his vaisnava( as Sridhar Maharaja has used it here) side.

 

This raises some questions.

 

How to recognize that distinction?

 

Can the empowered, inspired vaisnava , the authentic guru ever be wrong when speaking from his vaisnava side, like in cosmology for example?

 

If he makes a mistake from that side and I see it and hold another opinion does that then mean I am doubting the guru, the inspired side? Personally I don't think so. I believe our faith is for the inspired side and our own inspiration must surely come from the inspired side as well.

 

This whole topic brings up some the same questions with regards to shastra. Shastra afterall is the writings of devotees who are trying to communicate their realizations gleaned from their own inspired sides. Could they also write from their vaisnava sides along with, and side by side with their inspired sides? I think so.

 

If correct I must use the same caution when reading scriptures like the Bhagavatam that I do when hearing lectures from great teachers. We can never afford to be lazy when seeking the quintessence of spiritual realization. Quite the opposite of the 'blind' believer.

 

There is a saying that there are "none so blind as those that will not see." And of those I would say the blind believers are foremost among the sightless.

 

Guru comes carrying the torchlight of knowledge so that we may see and not be blind any longer.

[Guest guest]

 

 

There is a saying that there are "none so blind as those that will not see." And of those I would say the blind believers are foremost among the sightless.

 

 

and among the sightless, those who reject to see through the eyes of shastra and rather prefer to see though the eyes of material scientists are the most blinded from spiritual vision.

 

rejecting the vision of the great sages and accepting the vision of material science is not the message of any shastra or acharya.

 

it all boils down to our wanting empiric confirmation of that which is transcendental, or not seeing the spiritual aspect of everything that we most usually consider as matter.

 

we accept science and empiric knowledge in as much as it confirms the spiritual conception, but not for the sake of defeating the shastra.

[Guest guest]

materially he can be seen as any other bhakta, but he is not, he is a pure devotee

Why talk about it? To show how smart he is? To show he has gleaned something spriritual from the sastra we haven't?

To befool the innocent mass of people? Did he quote Srila Bhaktisiddanta when he said it, or what is his point anyway?

We aren't supposed to look at the relative side, this is all nonsense.

[Guest guest]

 

We aren't supposed to look at the relative side, this is all nonsense.

 

maybe not, but too many people do and that is why Sridhar Maharaja addressed the issue when asked about it.

[theist 1]

Guest in post #33 seems to think that the position of the moon and other material objects in space is transcendental knowledge.

 

I see transcendental knowledge as knowledge that reveals what lies beyond the material manifestation. And of transcendental knowledge I believe Vaisnavism to be the topmost.

[Guest guest]

 

Guest in post #33 seems to think that the position of the moon and other material objects in space is transcendental knowledge.

 

I see transcendental knowledge as knowledge that reveals what lies beyond the material manifestation. And of transcendental knowledge I believe Vaisnavism to be the topmost.

 

that is the way that most of us think about the material universe.

However, Srila Prabhupada explains how it is actually transcendental if we see from the proper perspective.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.16.3

 

bhagavato guṇamaye sthūla-rūpa āveśitaḿ mano hy aguṇe 'pi sūkṣmatama ātma-jyotiṣi pare brahmaṇi bhagavati vāsudevākhye kṣamam āveśituḿ tad u haitad guro 'rhasy anuvarṇayitum iti

 

SYNONYMS

 

bhagavataḥ — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; guṇa-maye — into the external features, consisting of the three modes of material nature; sthūla-rūpe — the gross form; āveśitam — entered; manaḥ — the mind; hi — indeed; aguṇe — transcendental; api — although; sūkṣmatame — in His smaller form as Paramātmā within the heart; ātma-jyotiṣi — who is full of Brahman effulgence; pare — the supreme; brahmaṇi — spiritual entity; bhagavati — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; vāsudeva-ākhye — known as Bhagavān Vāsudeva; kṣamam — suitable; āveśitum — to absorb; tat — that; u ha — indeed; etat — this; guro — O my dear spiritual master; arhasi anuvarṇayitum — please describe factually; iti — thus.

 

TRANSLATION

 

When the mind is fixed upon the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His external feature made of the material modes of nature — the gross universal form — it is brought to the platform of pure goodness. In that transcendental position, one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva, who in His subtler form is self-effulgent and beyond the modes of nature. O my lord, please describe vividly how that form, which covers the entire universe, is perceived.

 

PURPORT

 

Mahārāja Parīkṣit had already been advised by his spiritual master, Śukadeva Gosvāmī, to think of the universal form of the Lord, and therefore, following the advice of his spiritual master, he continuously thought of that form. The universal form is certainly material, but because everything is an expansion of the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, ultimately nothing is material. Therefore Parīkṣit Mahārāja's mind was saturated with spiritual consciousness. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī has stated:

 

prāpañcikatayā buddhyā

 

hari-sambandhi-vastunaḥ

 

mumukṣubhiḥ parityāgo

 

vairāgyaḿ phalgu kathyate

 

Everything, even that which is material, is connected with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore everything should be engaged in the service of the Lord. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura translates this verse as follows:

 

hari-sevāya yāhā haya anukūla

 

viṣaya baliyā tāhāra tyāge haya bhula

 

"One should not give up anything connected with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, thinking it material or enjoyable for the material senses." Even the senses, when purified, are spiritual. When Mahārāja Parīkṣit was thinking of the universal form of the Lord, his mind was certainly situated on the transcendental platform. Therefore although he might not have had any reason to be concerned with detailed information of the universe, he was thinking of it in relationship with the Supreme Lord, and therefore such geographical knowledge was not material but transcendental. Elsewhere in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (1.5.20) Nārada Muni has said, idaḿ hi viśvaḿ bhagavān ivetaraḥ: the entire universe is also the Supreme Personality of Godhead, although it appears different from Him. Therefore although Parīkṣit Mahārāja had no need for geographical knowledge of this universe, that knowledge was also spiritual and transcendental because he was thinking of the entire universe as an expansion of the energy of the Lord.

 

In our preaching work also, we deal with so much property and money and so many books bought and sold, but because these dealings all pertain to the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, they should never be considered material. That one is absorbed in thoughts of such management does not mean that he is outside of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If one rigidly observes the regulative principle of chanting sixteen rounds of the mahā-mantra every day, his dealings with the material world for the sake of spreading the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement are not different from the spiritual cultivation of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

Therefore, the universe is material for the materialistic and transcendental for the transcendentalists.

[theist 1]

Yes, everyone here understands that everything ultimately is Krsna's energy but then that is really not the context of the conversation. Then again you do not appear to be interested in a conversation on the various points others present to you.

 

"Therefore, the universe is material for the materialistic and transcendental for the transcendentalists."

 

Yes and I am still a materialist myself as parroting a philosophical concept, rather true or not, is still not realization of that truth.

 

Let's hope for you that at the testing time of bodily death you will pass the exam.

 

But as a transcendealist yourself one wonders why you bother arguing whatever point you are arguing. Unless of course one's point is that all energies, transcendental and so-called material, have their origin from Krsna and remain always under His control. That is a worthy argument because it is directly the Absolute Truth and therefore transcendental as opposed to the relative question of how high the Himalaya mountains are or how far it is to the damn moon. THAT IS THE POINT THAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS NOW! One inch or a billion miles makes no difference. Realizing how it is all linked up to Krsna is the needed essential understanding.

 

But you go ahead and continue with your little crusade to challenge those rascal scientists and teach them how the world is flat. Yeah that will solve the problem,right?

 

But better you spend your efforts on someone like Michio Kaku instead of little guys like us or the students at some university.