Religion is responsible for Israel-Palestine problem

[Guest guest]

 

It's up to you guys. Really, Im interested in solutions. you're arguments offer none. You want to ride the rollercoaster of capitalism to its logical crash conclusion be my guest. I would personally prefer to be armed with the actual facts which lead to a better world. There is a depth of synthesis between socialist philosophy and Vaishnava philosophy and an observable discord with capitalist and vaishnava philosophy. I hoped to spark a reasoned debate but if you're going to deny the terror that is meted out on Muslims as somehow justifiable and speak of muslim terrorists as if their decisions are motivated occur in some political vacuum then I really can't take you seriously. And as for that utter rubbish about Hitler being a socialist its quite obvious to me that you've never studied socialism and simply seen fit to accept the dominant ruling orders interpretation of the facts. The Zionists appealed to the Nazi regime in the first instance for a Zionist state, they hoped to capitulate rather than fight.

 

Any hoo. Best of luck. Don't think I'm likely to get the kind of discussion of this issue I was hoping for. Its as bad as talking to people in Iskcon. Ill informed bigotry leaves a bad taste on the consciousness. It was silly of me to think this might lead to anything other than reactionary rancour.

 

You're using this therm "capitalism" without actual explanation, capitalism can be anything - for many people at this forum capitalism = Zionism = a global criminal cartel, meant to disappropriate humanity at large. As you might have noticed this is happenening already. So whats your point about introducing socialism. 98% of humanity is already at the poverty level - expertly arranged by people who you dont mention and probably support, the worldwide globalization mafia.

Since you present misty therms what you expect, are you an accomplice of the NWO?

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

 

It's up to you guys. Really, Im interested in solutions. you're arguments offer none. You want to ride the rollercoaster of capitalism to its logical crash conclusion be my guest. I would personally prefer to be armed with the actual facts which lead to a better world. There is a depth of synthesis between socialist philosophy and Vaishnava philosophy and an observable discord with capitalist and vaishnava philosophy. I hoped to spark a reasoned debate but if you're going to deny the terror that is meted out on Muslims as somehow justifiable and speak of muslim terrorists as if their decisions are motivated occur in some political vacuum then I really can't take you seriously. And as for that utter rubbish about Hitler being a socialist its quite obvious to me that you've never studied socialism and simply seen fit to accept the dominant ruling orders interpretation of the facts. The Zionists appealed to the Nazi regime in the first instance for a Zionist state, they hoped to capitulate rather than fight.

 

Any hoo. Best of luck. Don't think I'm likely to get the kind of discussion of this issue I was hoping for. Its as bad as talking to people in Iskcon. Ill informed bigotry leaves a bad taste on the consciousness. It was silly of me to think this might lead to anything other than reactionary rancour.

 

Are you kidding? The truth is leftists socialists and communists say one thing and - do another...

 

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if you're going to deny the terror that is meted out on Muslims as somehow justifiable and speak of muslim terrorists as if their decisions are motivated occur in some political vacuum then I really can't take you seriously.

 

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There is a depth of synthesis between socialist philosophy and Vaishnava philosophy

 

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So explain it then?

 

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as for that utter rubbish about Hitler being a socialist its quite obvious to me that you've never studied socialism

 

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He was - it is a fact - it's you that hasn't really studied enough....

 

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Its as bad as talking to people in Iskcon.

 

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You want to ride the rollercoaster of capitalism to its logical crash conclusion be my guest.

 

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While you ride yours - to its illogical crash...

 

Tell us - where in history have we seen any successful socialist or communist governance one that actually brings the realizations of the things they preach?

[Danielle Field 0]

I don't know who the NWO are. I am an international socialist and a member of the Socialist Worker Party if that helps. I am committed to the development of Varnashrama Dhama through the means of socialist revolution. I'm afraid I am very precariously employed at the moment and only have intermittent access to the internet. If I get caught using it then I'll lose my job. I haven't got the time to trawl through all that stuff about Russian Facists and National Socialism. I've heard it all before and its inconsequential.

 

Anyway, Capitalism as I see it is the current economic order in its entirety, as in the system that the bourgeois class of the 17th and 18th centuries implemented after their bloody revolutions of that era. I don't feel a need to break that down any further because thats all capitalism is. A classical Marxist analysis of capitalism is one I to as his work is more relevant today than ever it was now that Capitalism has dominated the globe in the way he anticipated.

 

Marx's analysis did not offer prescriptions as to what type of society would emerge beyond a socialist revolution he simply pointed out that we have two main classes within the world today, and this is more relevant than it was in his time as the proletariat is growing the further capitalism spreads its greedy tentacles. These two classes stand in contradiction to each other and their conflict can only be resolved through the proletriat recognising how to organise and fight for their interests as a class against the exploitation that the ruling class enforces upon them.

 

If we organised as a class we could get rid of the system which brings degradation to human consciousness the world over, which places people in a position of false need. All people could be catered for economically. Technology has advanced so far that we could feed and clothe the world if that was the desire of the dominant order. But it isn't. This is because Capitalism is entirely wasteful of resources and human potential. It is focused on deriving profits and increasing competition and the logical conclusion of this is that with each technological advancement more bellies go hungry and more jobs get sucked away and therewith people's access to the economic means of survival.

 

What we need to do is to raise the consciousness of the working class to recognise it doesn't need to accept this kind of abuse. People are not machines who can be discarded because of advancements in technology. A better world is possible and only the worker's are capable of achieving it. The dialectical conflict between capital and labour, I believe, is the precuror to the development of a world in which principles of spiritual communism can be implemented. Only the working class at this juncture has the power to bring about the end of the horrors of capitalism. It is important to be aware of this so that we can work with working class movements. Work within them also so that we can influence the trajectory of revolution in a spiritual direction. We need to open our minds to what needs to take place in order to revolutionise human culture.

 

Marx did not prescribe that we live like zombies in a communist/ atheist hell hole. He simply wanted to see an end to the inescapable conflict between capital and labour so that human beings could combine all their potential to bring about a world where humanity can flourish and develop. My addition to that desire is that if we bring about such a world it will make it easier for people to see and understand spiritual values and if we work in combination with this revolutionary force we can purify it along the way.

 

I hope that explains where I'm coming from a bit better and I'm sorry for getting frustrated. I don't feel qualified to be making these statements but nobody else seems to be and I therefore feel compelled to do so. I hope someone from this web site takes some of the things I've said seriously and looks into the forces of revolution with the desire of working with them and purifying them so that Prabhupada's mission can be implemented fully. Iskcon is a joke simply because the GBC have failed to understand material politics and have become nothing but a capitalist organisation with no power to bring about revolutionary change. It is an insult to Prabhupada that that has happened but he wasn't to know that the neoliberal counter revolution was going to come and dispense with all the good work achieved by revolutionary forces evident in the 1960s. Krishna sent Prabhupada at that time for a reason and we have to be keen to the need to analyse the context within which we rebuild that movement.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

 

I don't know who the NWO are. I am an international socialist and a member of the Socialist Worker Party if that helps. I am committed to the development of Varnashrama Dhama through the means of socialist revolution. I'm afraid I am very precariously employed at the moment and only have intermittent access to the internet. If I get caught using it then I'll lose my job. I haven't got the time to trawl through all that stuff about Russian Facists and National Socialism. I've heard it all before and its inconsequential.

 

Anyway, Capitalism as I see it is the current economic order in its entirety, as in the system that the bourgeois class of the 17th and 18th centuries implemented after their bloody revolutions of that era. I don't feel a need to break that down any further because thats all capitalism is. A classical Marxist analysis of capitalism is one I to as his work is more relevant today than ever it was now that Capitalism has dominated the globe in the way he anticipated.

 

Marx's analysis did not offer prescriptions as to what type of society would emerge beyond a socialist revolution he simply pointed out that we have two main classes within the world today, and this is more relevant than it was in his time as the proletariat is growing the further capitalism spreads its greedy tentacles. These two classes stand in contradiction to each other and their conflict can only be resolved through the proletriat recognising how to organise and fight for their interests as a class against the exploitation that the ruling class enforces upon them.

 

If we organised as a class we could get rid of the system which brings degradation to human consciousness the world over, which places people in a position of false need. All people could be catered for economically. Technology has advanced so far that we could feed and clothe the world if that was the desire of the dominant order. But it isn't. This is because Capitalism is entirely wasteful of resources and human potential. It is focused on deriving profits and increasing competition and the logical conclusion of this is that with each technological advancement more bellies go hungry and more jobs get sucked away and therewith people's access to the economic means of survival.

 

What we need to do is to raise the consciousness of the working class to recognise it doesn't need to accept this kind of abuse. People are not machines who can be discarded because of advancements in technology. A better world is possible and only the worker's are capable of achieving it. The dialectical conflict between capital and labour, I believe, is the precuror to the development of a world in which principles of spiritual communism can be implemented. Only the working class at this juncture has the power to bring about the end of the horrors of capitalism. It is important to be aware of this so that we can work with working class movements. Work within them also so that we can influence the trajectory of revolution in a spiritual direction. We need to open our minds to what needs to take place in order to revolutionise human culture.

 

Marx did not prescribe that we live like zombies in a communist/ atheist hell hole. He simply wanted to see an end to the inescapable conflict between capital and labour so that human beings could combine all their potential to bring about a world where humanity can flourish and develop. My addition to that desire is that if we bring about such a world it will make it easier for people to see and understand spiritual values and if we work in combination with this revolutionary force we can purify it along the way.

 

I hope that explains where I'm coming from a bit better and I'm sorry for getting frustrated. I don't feel qualified to be making these statements but nobody else seems to be and I therefore feel compelled to do so. I hope someone from this web site takes some of the things I've said seriously and looks into the forces of revolution with the desire of working with them and purifying them so that Prabhupada's mission can be implemented fully. Iskcon is a joke simply because the GBC have failed to understand material politics and have become nothing but a capitalist organisation with no power to bring about revolutionary change. It is an insult to Prabhupada that that has happened but he wasn't to know that the neoliberal counter revolution was going to come and dispense with all the good work achieved by revolutionary forces evident in the 1960s. Krishna sent Prabhupada at that time for a reason and we have to be keen to the need to analyse the context within which we rebuild that movement.

- the islamists are pushing a revolution to topple 'capitalism' - why don't you join them?

[suchandra 1]

 

I don't know who the NWO are. I am an international socialist and a member of the Socialist Worker Party if that helps. I am committed to the development of Varnashrama Dhama through the means of socialist revolution. I'm afraid I am very precariously employed at the moment and only have intermittent access to the internet. If I get caught using it then I'll lose my job. I haven't got the time to trawl through all that stuff about Russian Facists and National Socialism. I've heard it all before and its inconsequential.

 

Anyway, Capitalism as I see it is the current economic order in its entirety, as in the system that the bourgeois class of the 17th and 18th centuries implemented after their bloody revolutions of that era. I don't feel a need to break that down any further because thats all capitalism is. A classical Marxist analysis of capitalism is one I to as his work is more relevant today than ever it was now that Capitalism has dominated the globe in the way he anticipated.

 

Marx's analysis did not offer prescriptions as to what type of society would emerge beyond a socialist revolution he simply pointed out that we have two main classes within the world today, and this is more relevant than it was in his time as the proletariat is growing the further capitalism spreads its greedy tentacles. These two classes stand in contradiction to each other and their conflict can only be resolved through the proletriat recognising how to organise and fight for their interests as a class against the exploitation that the ruling class enforces upon them.

 

If we organised as a class we could get rid of the system which brings degradation to human consciousness the world over, which places people in a position of false need. All people could be catered for economically. Technology has advanced so far that we could feed and clothe the world if that was the desire of the dominant order. But it isn't. This is because Capitalism is entirely wasteful of resources and human potential. It is focused on deriving profits and increasing competition and the logical conclusion of this is that with each technological advancement more bellies go hungry and more jobs get sucked away and therewith people's access to the economic means of survival.

 

What we need to do is to raise the consciousness of the working class to recognise it doesn't need to accept this kind of abuse. People are not machines who can be discarded because of advancements in technology. A better world is possible and only the worker's are capable of achieving it. The dialectical conflict between capital and labour, I believe, is the precuror to the development of a world in which principles of spiritual communism can be implemented. Only the working class at this juncture has the power to bring about the end of the horrors of capitalism. It is important to be aware of this so that we can work with working class movements. Work within them also so that we can influence the trajectory of revolution in a spiritual direction. We need to open our minds to what needs to take place in order to revolutionise human culture.

 

Marx did not prescribe that we live like zombies in a communist/ atheist hell hole. He simply wanted to see an end to the inescapable conflict between capital and labour so that human beings could combine all their potential to bring about a world where humanity can flourish and develop. My addition to that desire is that if we bring about such a world it will make it easier for people to see and understand spiritual values and if we work in combination with this revolutionary force we can purify it along the way.

 

I hope that explains where I'm coming from a bit better and I'm sorry for getting frustrated. I don't feel qualified to be making these statements but nobody else seems to be and I therefore feel compelled to do so. I hope someone from this web site takes some of the things I've said seriously and looks into the forces of revolution with the desire of working with them and purifying them so that Prabhupada's mission can be implemented fully. Iskcon is a joke simply because the GBC have failed to understand material politics and have become nothing but a capitalist organisation with no power to bring about revolutionary change. It is an insult to Prabhupada that that has happened but he wasn't to know that the neoliberal counter revolution was going to come and dispense with all the good work achieved by revolutionary forces evident in the 1960s. Krishna sent Prabhupada at that time for a reason and we have to be keen to the need to analyse the context within which we rebuild that movement.

 

 

Your spirit speaks of action not just talk!

I dont know if this is the right target group - members of an internet forum are basically all tarred with the same brush: spineless cyberspace "snobs" who sit all day exposed to electromagnetic waves and basicly unrelated/cut off to reality.

People who transpose important content into the real world and actually get things done you wont find in the world of cyberspace.

Not that this is all what happens at internet forums,

but often it's just like that.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

 

I haven't got the time to trawl through all that stuff about Russian Facists and National Socialism. I've heard it all before and its inconsequential.

How fortuitous of a position - huh? I think that it's this point of yours that's "inconsequential" - oh and - I was wondering - what nation is this "Socialist Worker Party" based in? Is it England?

 

"Overall, despite the SWP hype, a very high percentage of Respect votes came from muslims - and the fact that this produced blatantly one-sided results on May 4 now lays bare the problems that were always going to arise in a much sharper light."

 

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/624/respect.htm

[Danielle Field 0]

Bye bye. Have fun discussing the world. Philosophers have discussed the world up until this point, but the point is to change it. Hope capitalism doesn't eat you up or else you might get a better idea of where I'm coming from. Its easier to understand the need for revolution when you don't know when you're next pay cheque is coming in. Maybe if I get a nice job somewhere and settle down in the burbs I'll forget about all this nonsense and hope the real world will go away too. Take care. Its been a hoot.

[Samia 0]

Wow take a few days of travel and miss this ?

I find it amazing how " socialism " is the cure to all Ills yet every time it has taken root the number of deaths is staggering. Then like all good socialists they use their greatist tool, revisionism and claim " That wasn`t real socialism "

No form of governing offers sanctuary to the world. So I would really quit focusing on the " workers Utopia " which will never happen and focus on god.

 

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

 

Bye bye. Have fun discussing the world. Philosophers have discussed the world up until this point, but the point is to change it. Hope capitalism doesn't eat you up or else you might get a better idea of where I'm coming from. Its easier to understand the need for revolution when you don't know when you're next pay cheque is coming in. Maybe if I get a nice job somewhere and settle down in the burbs I'll forget about all this nonsense and hope the real world will go away too. Take care. Its been a hoot.

 

Okay - bye bye...

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

 

I don't know who the NWO are. I am an international socialist and a member of the Socialist Worker Party if that helps. I am committed to the development of Varnashrama Dhama through the means of socialist revolution. I'm afraid I am very precariously employed at the moment and only have intermittent access to the internet. If I get caught using it then I'll lose my job. I haven't got the time to trawl through all that stuff about Russian Facists and National Socialism. I've heard it all before and its inconsequential.

 

Anyway, Capitalism as I see it is the current economic order in its entirety, as in the system that the bourgeois class of the 17th and 18th centuries implemented after their bloody revolutions of that era. I don't feel a need to break that down any further because thats all capitalism is. A classical Marxist analysis of capitalism is one I to as his work is more relevant today than ever it was now that Capitalism has dominated the globe in the way he anticipated.

 

Marx's analysis did not offer prescriptions as to what type of society would emerge beyond a socialist revolution he simply pointed out that we have two main classes within the world today, and this is more relevant than it was in his time as the proletariat is growing the further capitalism spreads its greedy tentacles. These two classes stand in contradiction to each other and their conflict can only be resolved through the proletriat recognising how to organise and fight for their interests as a class against the exploitation that the ruling class enforces upon them.

 

If we organised as a class we could get rid of the system which brings degradation to human consciousness the world over, which places people in a position of false need. All people could be catered for economically. Technology has advanced so far that we could feed and clothe the world if that was the desire of the dominant order. But it isn't. This is because Capitalism is entirely wasteful of resources and human potential. It is focused on deriving profits and increasing competition and the logical conclusion of this is that with each technological advancement more bellies go hungry and more jobs get sucked away and therewith people's access to the economic means of survival.

 

What we need to do is to raise the consciousness of the working class to recognise it doesn't need to accept this kind of abuse. People are not machines who can be discarded because of advancements in technology. A better world is possible and only the worker's are capable of achieving it. The dialectical conflict between capital and labour, I believe, is the precuror to the development of a world in which principles of spiritual communism can be implemented. Only the working class at this juncture has the power to bring about the end of the horrors of capitalism. It is important to be aware of this so that we can work with working class movements. Work within them also so that we can influence the trajectory of revolution in a spiritual direction. We need to open our minds to what needs to take place in order to revolutionise human culture.

 

Marx did not prescribe that we live like zombies in a communist/ atheist hell hole. He simply wanted to see an end to the inescapable conflict between capital and labour so that human beings could combine all their potential to bring about a world where humanity can flourish and develop. My addition to that desire is that if we bring about such a world it will make it easier for people to see and understand spiritual values and if we work in combination with this revolutionary force we can purify it along the way.

 

I hope that explains where I'm coming from a bit better and I'm sorry for getting frustrated. I don't feel qualified to be making these statements but nobody else seems to be and I therefore feel compelled to do so. I hope someone from this web site takes some of the things I've said seriously and looks into the forces of revolution with the desire of working with them and purifying them so that Prabhupada's mission can be implemented fully. Iskcon is a joke simply because the GBC have failed to understand material politics and have become nothing but a capitalist organisation with no power to bring about revolutionary change. It is an insult to Prabhupada that that has happened but he wasn't to know that the neoliberal counter revolution was going to come and dispense with all the good work achieved by revolutionary forces evident in the 1960s. Krishna sent Prabhupada at that time for a reason and we have to be keen to the need to analyse the context within which we rebuild that movement.

So in that long essay which you've ignored there was this point about socialism and nazism:

 

The word "Nazi" is a German abbreviation of the name of Hitler's political party -- the nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei. In English this translates to "The National Socialist German Worker's Party". So Hitler was a socialist and a champion of the workers -- or at least he identified himself as such and campaigned as such.

 

Make no mistake Hitler was a leftist and a socialist - a so-called 'champion of workers' - however bent his understandings of socialism became - it was socialism all the same.

[Danielle Field 0]

Is that why he killed of all the actual socialists in Dachau? Was Rosa Luxembourg a Nazi? Do you even know who she is. I'm no anti-semite by the way. I went to a meeting organised by the SWP recently in which a practising Jew went to the Mosque community hall to speak out against the attrocities committed by the Zionist state of Israel. She was applauded and cheered. The founder of the SWP was a Palestinian Jew. This is the power socialism has to unite people of all faiths. There is no such thing as national socialism. The concept is as ridiculous as mysoginist feminism. The concept of Nazism is as foolish as Hitler was himself. There is nothing that the ruling class likes more than a bunch of boot boys who are willing to blame minority groups for all the economic failings of the current system.

[Guest guest]

 

Bye bye. Have fun discussing the world. Philosophers have discussed the world up until this point, but the point is to change it. Hope capitalism doesn't eat you up or else you might get a better idea of where I'm coming from. Its easier to understand the need for revolution when you don't know when you're next pay cheque is coming in. Maybe if I get a nice job somewhere and settle down in the burbs I'll forget about all this nonsense and hope the real world will go away too. Take care. Its been a hoot.

 

Why you want leave us now at this point? You're a personality who gets things done, who has a vision, please be a bit more patient with these members here.

[Bhakta Don Muntean 0]

 

the attrocities committed by the Zionist state of Israel.

 

Hitler's extreme national socialism is only one example - as noted by samia 'every time it [socialism] has taken root the number of deaths is staggering' - that is a fact - despite all the rubbish of such revolutions being some ideological transformation where force is only reactionary.

 

I didn't say you're anti-semite but - hearing your estimation of the so-called 'zionists' and the 'zionists state of israel' i wonder - certainly many many people have anti-semitic understandings but - they don't necessarily hate jews or israel. Can you see how that might happen?

[Danielle Field 0]

I appreciate that casual racists begin their sentences with the statement "I am not a racist but . . ." and proceed to confim they are a racist because they have not thoroughly assessed the situation reflexively. I am not such a person. I believe that before the second world war there was a massive socialist party in Germany that had great sway over Jewish people who saw it as the only means via which they would be able to overcome anti semitism. The ruling class responded by giving resources and media support to the Nazi party who subverted the principles of socialism into a doctrine that oppressed Jewish people.

 

The Nazi's systematically wiped out all the socialists at Dachau. They were one of their first targets. After the war Zionists chose a path of separatism believing that no other possibility lay for them to be accepted as part of European society. The same European society that had failed to come to their aid during the holocaust condoned practically exiling the Jewish population to a middle eastern outpost that was fully inhabited by Palestinian people. Those Palestinian people were Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. There was no problem with them living together. But like some hideous gladiatorial imperialist spectator sport Britain and France challenged the Jews to wipe out the Palestinian population and claim their place on the political map.

 

There is nothing worse for the Jewish people than the Zionist state of Israel. It actively increases anti-semitism because it commits acts of violence in the middle east on behalf of the Western powers. They are like an outsourced army that do George Bush's dirty work for him. Zionists are more akin to to Nazis in their use of terror to achieve their objectives. Most Jewish people are oblivious to all this and with simple faith believe that they have been delivered unto the promised land. I don't hate these people but I despise the ruling class that has manipulated the simplicity of their faith to cover the gruesome facts that surround the creation of Israel.

 

Marek Edelman was a Jewish socialist who spearheaded the resistance against the Warsaw Ghetto while he was imprisoned there. It is a brilliant text that sheds much illumination on this issues. It is called the Ghetto Fights. Read it if you get the chance.

 

I'm sorry for getting frustrated with you but its just that I've studied the creation of states and global power and am engaged in debate on a daily basis on these issues and I hoped that this discussion would start beyond the need for all these issues to be addressed. I do appreciate that it must have appeared awfully ignorant of me not to read all that stuff you posted but I sincerely don't have the time and also am aware of the arguments which justify that position. I hope I've not caused any offence and that I can in some way inspire you to reconsider your negative opinions of socialism. The ruling class has a vested interested in lying about socialism. The facts lie beneath the surface.