The early program for continuation of Sampradaya

[Kulapavana 0]

from SP letter to Hamsaduta (68-12-03).

"Next January there will be an examination on this Bhagavad-gita. Papers will be sent by me to all centers, and those securing the minimum passing grade will be given the title as Bhakti-sastri. Similarly, another examination will be held on Lord Caitanya's Appearance Day in February, 1970 and it will be upon Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita. Those passing will get the title of Bhakti-vaibhava. Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program. So we should not simply publish these books for reading by outsiders, but our students must be well versed in all of our books so that we can be prepared to defeat all opposing parties in the matter of self-realization".

[Guest guest]

As a side-note, notice that there is no mention that those who initiate would have to leave Iskcon and start their own organization.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

As a side-note, notice that there is no mention that those who initiate would have to leave Iskcon and start their own organization.

 

exactly. would not that be totally absurd and counterproductive from the preaching perspective? Prabhupada was a uniter, not a divider.

[Guest guest]

That there is no mention of them being worshipped, having their picture on the altar, having vyasa puja books, or removing Srila Prabhupada as the head of the society. If by 1975 he hoped all his disciples could have this title, and could initiate, then what he was defining certainly was not the same thing as what is understood by guru today in Iskcon.

[Guest guest]

you can become an initiating guru. Clearly this letter if anything validates the ritvik position. They can initiate. But the idea that simply by taking and passing an exam that these people would then be worshipped I don't think falls in line with any of Srila Prabhupada's teachings. Whats the difference between passing an exam and being an ecclesiastical guru (one who is voted by committee)? A committee creates a test, and can vote a person just as easily as a person can pass a test.

 

This is a great letter. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

It appears that the political elite managed to foil Prabhupada's program for giving titles and authority to the nerds and geeks who would have had an easier time passing the exams than many of the position holders who did not want their prestige and power to be minimzed when the geeks and nerds who are more academically inclined would have taken over ISKCON while the position holders would have been left in the dust.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

It appears that the political elite managed to foil Prabhupada's program for giving titles and authority to the nerds and geeks who would have had an easier time passing the exams than many of the position holders who did not want their prestige and power to be minimzed

 

you mean, the actual brahmana devotees might have surfaced in our movement in positions of spiritual power? how radical!

[theist 1]

 

you can become an initiating guru. Clearly this letter if anything validates the ritvik position. They can initiate. But the idea that simply by taking and passing an exam that these people would then be worshipped I don't think falls in line with any of Srila Prabhupada's teachings. Whats the difference between passing an exam and being an ecclesiastical guru (one who is voted by committee)? A committee creates a test, and can vote a person just as easily as a person can pass a test.

 

This is a great letter. Thanks.

 

These are interesting questions.

 

"They can initiate. But the idea that simply by taking and passing an exam that these people would then be worshipped I don't think falls in line with any of Srila Prabhupada's teachings."

 

It can't be expected or forced on someone to "worship the guru" if that guru is not his/her own. This ends up happening in big beuracratic systems. A one size fits all approach that is most unnatural. We can't lose the individuality for the sake of so-called unity which is really just uniformity.

 

Why worship any guru? I believe souls should worship and adore their teachers because of the priceless gift that that guru is giving to one, knowlwdge of and love for Krsna (which includes liberation and all other things desireable). Without that sense of gratitude and love it is all just formality.

 

It is a very personal thing, not an institutional thing at all. It cannot be legislated but only inspired from within. The individual must be taught the necessity of seeking out guru from Krsna within who will lead us to the one to inspire us based on our level of sincerity.

 

"Whats the difference between passing an exam and being an ecclesiastical guru (one who is voted by committee)? A committee creates a test, and can vote a person just as easily as a person can pass a test."

 

Sometimes I speculate that Srila Prabhupada was working to build a Vaisnava religion, an exoteric side along side the more esoteric. This letter is one that makes me wonder in this way.

 

Someone once gave me the example of the Catholic Church and St. Francis of Assisi. Of out the main body of devotional practicioners in a religious setting one may sometimes become really inspired and blessed and live a unique life apart and above the main body. While at the same time the rest are gathering sukriti in a more formal way.

 

I thought that was a good example an have kept ever since.

[Guest guest]

 

you mean, the actual brahmana devotees might have surfaced in our movement in positions of spiritual power? how radical!

 

yep, that was what I was saying.

 

In ISKCON, raw ambition combined with a little charisma and a natural tendency to want to be the one giving orders instead of the one taking them, was the criteria for ascending to authority positions.

 

However, there is something about awarding titles for scholarship instead of service attitude that just doesn't set right with me.

 

I am more inclined to favor the sacrificers, the hard workers, the doers, the achievers and the givers more than the academics.

 

Some of the top academics like Nitai, Hiranyagarbha das (Jagat), Jayasacinandan das and some others were the ones who got sucked into the siddha-pranali camps and ended up rejecting Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada's Saraswata brand of innovative thinking was often rejected by the academics who learned Sanskrit and started to see how the Saraswata school was a divergence from the indigenous parivars that have been around the last two or three hundred years that have produced a number of sahajiya camps.

 

It seems that scholarship and the Saraswata doctrine can often times be a difficult mix.

[Kulapavana 0]

 

It seems that scholarship and the Saraswata doctrine can often times be a difficult mix.

 

agreed. but perhaps that is more due to lack of presentation of the Saraswata doctrine in a sound scholarly way than any kind of "irreconcilable differences" between our doctrine and good Vaishnava scholarship. after all we are a very young current in Vaishnavism in that sense, and many of our devotees are quite obsessed with literalism and pseudo-orthodoxy. The discussion about editing SP books is a good example here.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted to present KC in an organized fashion. That is why he was thinking very early on (as this 1968 quote shows) about the continuation of the sampradaya. Traditionally that process is quite spontaneous and unpredictable, but SP wanted to make sure his disciples had a very solid scriptural basis before becoming gurus themselves. That is perhaps not such a bad idea. One can only wonder, why in the end he chose some very dubious characters in that area to initiate disciples on his behalf...

[krsna 3]

How can there be a rubber stamp system of approval, albeit a sastric certification, that authorizes a guru to deliver souls to Krsna???

[Kulapavana 0]

 

How can there be a rubber stamp system of approval, albeit a sastric certification, that authorizes a guru to deliver souls to Krsna???

 

in a world-wide organization like Iskcon a standardized system is a neccessity.