suchandra Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 The fate of those who serve false gurus is the same as the fate of the false gurus themselves: "Unless one is perfectly anxious to inquire about the way of perfection, there is no necessity of approaching a spiritual master. A spiritual master is not a kind of decoration for a householder. Generally a fashionable materialist engages a so-called spiritual master without any profit. The pseudo spiritual master flatters the so-called disciple, and thereby both the master and his ward go to hell without a doubt."(SB 1.19.37, purport) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Does that mean that all those who were initiated by Bhavananda are going to hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Does that mean that all those who were initiated by Bhavananda are going to hell? I don't think that it does. Bhavananda was sincere enough at one time for Prabhupada to give him sannyasa. Those who offend and insult devotees ike Bhavananda will be the ones to go to hell. If he still has a sincere regard for Prabhupada and doesn't adulterate his teachings than Bhavananda can be guru anyway. Prabhupada gave sannyasa to more than one disciple whom had a homosexual background. Srila Prabhupada would NEVER tolerate the kind of insulting and accusing that these idiots practice at the expense of sincere devotees with some personality defect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Hmmm.... does this apply to Kirtanananda too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Hmmm.... does this apply to Kirtanananda too? forgive......yes but not forget. Kirtanananda should be forgiven for his shortcomings, yet if he persists to introduce his concocted version of Vaishnavism (this son of a Baptist minister) and distort the form and substance that Srila Prabhupada gave, then we have to neglect his preaching and give our attention to hearing proper instructions that comply with what Srila Prabhupada gave. foregiveness should flow like water. yet, we should always be true to Srila Prabhupada and ignore such nonsense preaching that deviates from the form and substance given by Prabhupada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 foregiveness should flow like water... yes, Vaishnavas should always forgive, but they should also be very wise about the effects of grievous offences committed by such people on devotees in our community. Danurdhara Swami's story is one example where both forgiveness and institutional stupidity were flowing like water. Allowing people like Bhavananda give classes in Mayapur while he was still allegadly running his male escort business from home is another such case - many devotees were outraged by that. As to the question on hand: The fate of those who serve false gurus If one sincerely serves an unqualified guru, Krsna (who is Adi-Guru) will eventually give such a person a proper understanding of the situation, leading to the rejection of unqualified guru. I have seen it happen many times. But if one is not sincere, associating with such a false guru will gradually corrupt the mind of the disciple and both of them will slide towards hellish destinations. I have seen that happen as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 But if one is not sincere, associating with such a false guru will gradually corrupt the mind of the disciple and both of them will slide towards hellish destinations. I have seen that happen as well. You have seen hell??!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 You have seen hell??!! I said that I have seen both gurus and disciples slide towards hellish destinations, that is: engage in abhorrent, immoral conduct, unbefitting a civilized human being, let alone a Vaishnava, with a mentality to justify and enjoy such wicked deeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 I said that I have seen both gurus and disciples slide towards hellish destinations, that is: engage in abhorrent, immoral conduct, unbefitting a civilized human being, let alone a Vaishnava, with a mentality to justify and enjoy such wicked deeds. Would you consider mingling with meat-eaters, drinkers (wine, etc.) and smokers (pot, tobaco) befitting for a Vaisnava, even if only on the web? How about supporting a forum of such company? Would that be a "hellish destination"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted July 17, 2006 Report Share Posted July 17, 2006 Would you consider mingling with meat-eaters, drinkers (wine, etc.) and smokers (pot, tobaco) befitting for a Vaisnava, even if only on the web? How about supporting a forum of such company? Would that be a "hellish destination"? No. I do it every day just to earn a living, just like countless other devotees. And if such "mingling" involves preaching the message of Lord Caitanya to these people than it is actually quite commendable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 This thread reminds me why I am not a Gaudiya. Thinking people will go to hell because their beliefs are different than yours, is the same rhetoric we hear from Christians and Muslims. It has zero basis in fact. Let go of your religious biases, judgments and sectarianism. Check out near-death.com and read about people who have actually been to the afterlife realms. Most of these people are not Gaudiyas, and yet they have travelled to celestial worlds during their NDEs and were told these heavenly realms are their True Home. This shows that this sectarian rhetoric about "non-believers" of a particular sect going to hell, is mis-guided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 most of those experiences coincide with hindu beliefs tha xianity! and hinduism isn't sectarian, xianinity and islam is. Gaudiyas are not sectarian, either! get ur facts straight! you'll have a harder time tellin xians to be more accepting, the any gaudiya you'll ever meet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 London Times interview, ca 1974 Reporter: Were their spiritual lives in any way spoiled by the fake gurus? Srila Prabhupada: No, they were genuinely seeking something spiritual, and that was their qualification. God is within everyone's heart, and as soon as someone genuinely seeks Him, He helps that person find a genuine guru. Reporter: Have the real gurus like yourself ever tried to put a stop to the false gurus--that is, put pressure on them to put them out of business, so to speak? Srila Prabhupada: No, that is not my purpose. I started my movement simply by chanting Hare Krsna. I chanted in New York in a place called Tompkins Square Park, and soon people began to come to me. In this way, the Krsna consciousness movement gradually developed. Many accepted, and many did not accept. Those who are fortunate have accepted. Reporter: Don't you feel that people are suspicious because of their experience with fake gurus? If you went to a quack dentist and he broke your tooth, you might be suspicious about going to another dentist. Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Naturally, if you are cheated, you become suspicious. But this does not mean that if you are cheated once, you will always be cheated. You should find someone genuine. But to come to Krsna consciousness, you must be either very fortunate or well aware of this science. From the Bhagavad-gita we understand that the genuine seekers are very few: manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye. Out of many millions of people, there may be only one who is interested in spiritual life. Generally, people are interested in eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. So how can we expect to find many followers? It is not difficult to notice that people have lost their spiritual interest. And almost all those who are actually interested are being cheated by so-called spiritualists. You cannot judge a movement simply by the number of its followers. If one man is genuine, then the movement is successful. It is not a question of quantity, but quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 No. I do it every day just to earn a living, just like countless other devotees. And if such "mingling" involves preaching the message of Lord Caitanya to these people than it is actually quite commendable. Two posts have been removed but I would like to continue and try make an honest point - if the adminstration will please give me the chance. There is no intention of confrontation here. I believe those who set themselves to preach the message of Lord Caitanya, ought to know what that message is. Since they "preach", when questioned, they must at least offer the courtesy of an honest reply. If the alleged preacher is overpowered by its audience's lack of interest and, moreover, when the audience's reaction is rid with conscious aparadha, then the preacher is as liable as the offenders. 'All there is to it. Indulgence in speach for the sake of speaking is failing the very first instruction of Upadeshamrta. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's message is not occasional resort amidst mainstay chat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 Two posts have been removed but I would like to continue and try make an honest point - if the adminstration will please give me the chance. There is no intention of confrontation here. I believe those who set themselves to preach the message of Lord Caitanya, ought to know what that message is. Since they "preach", when questioned, they must at least offer the courtesy of an honest reply. If the alleged preacher is overpowered by its audience's lack of interest and, moreover, when the audience's reaction is rid with conscious aparadha, then the preacher is as liable as the offenders. 'All there is to it. Indulgence in speach for the sake of speaking is failing the very first instruction of Upadeshamrta. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's message is not occasional resort amidst mainstay chat. And since in the second post deleted the point that non Gaudiya Vaisnavas visit this site as well, may I point it out that it is condenscending of a preacher to not consider his audience's clear distate for his message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 most of those experiences coincide with hindu beliefs tha xianity! and hinduism isn't sectarian, xianinity and islam is. Gaudiyas are not sectarian, either! get ur facts straight! you'll have a harder time tellin xians to be more accepting, the any gaudiya you'll ever meet! Oh, I agree, they coincide with the higher metaphysical teachings of Hinduism. But they do not coincide with those who believe that we are going to be poked with pitchforks in our astral bodies, because we were following the wrong sect or Guru. One does not experience "physical pain" in their astral body, tho they may experience "emotional pain" in one of the lower astral zones. This is a temporary state though. Everything in Samsara is temporary, including purgatories. Generally speaking people spend time in the realm of the ancestors inbetween lives. No matter what their religion. There are other things that can happen, like becoming an earthbound spirit (ghost) if one has too many earthly attachments, or descent into a mental purgatory of a lower astral region if our karma and state of consciousness is real bad. Most as we see though in NDEs go into the white light tunnel when they exit one of their various chakras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 If the alleged preacher is overpowered by its audience's lack of interest and, moreover, when the audience's reaction is rid with conscious aparadha, then the preacher is as liable as the offenders. 'All there is to it. I am liable for all kinds of offenses, Prabhu. I am just a neophyte devotee trying to make sense out of what seems like a very disjointed chorus of advanced Vaishnavas all around me. What little understanding I have, I like to share with similarly confused people. Some of the people I meet may seem beyond all hope for salvation, yet some others genuinely appreciate a kind hand extended in their direction. part of the problem in our society is lack of honest and open discussion of all issues troubling our community. that lack of honest and relevant exchanges has real consequenses. one of them is that sometimes the only place where such discussions may be held is on he side of the gutter... I appreciate your kind criticism and thank you for it. Hare Krsna! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 I am liable for all kinds of offenses, Prabhu. I am just a neophyte devotee trying to make sense out of what seems like a very disjointed chorus of advanced Vaishnavas all around me. What little understanding I have, I like to share with similarly confused people. Some of the people I meet may seem beyond all hope for salvation, yet some others genuinely appreciate a kind hand extended in their direction. part of the problem in our society is lack of honest and open discussion of all issues troubling our community. that lack of honest and relevant exchanges has real consequenses. one of them is that sometimes the only place where such discussions may be held is on he side of the gutter... I appreciate your kind criticism and thank you for it. Hare Krsna! I agree with you, sometimes the other side of the gutter seems more legitimate and honest. My point is related to this ambiguity. Have you ever considered that many of those on the other side (an impressive number it seems) hold the strong opinion that "hellish conditions" are to be found here, on our side? Thats indeed the reason they left. Perhaps we should take a closer look at the "hellish conditions" you claim you have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 TRANSLATION BG 16.21 There are three gates leading to this hell—lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul. Kulapavanna said, "I said that I have seen both gurus and disciples slide towards hellish destinations, that is: engage in abhorrent, immoral conduct, unbefitting a civilized human being, let alone a Vaishnava, with a mentality to justify and enjoy such wicked deeds." His observation is right in line with what Krsna said. False guru means someone who is motivated by some form or lust anger or greed. Cheating people by claiming and promoting oneself to be guru when one is not is a hellish act that reaps a hellish reaction. If someone follows such menatlity as it arises in a false guru then he partakes of the same fate. Some may realize their mistake and break off, some are just innocent of what is going on and never really develop the mentality of the false teacher. Supersoul deals with individuals, not groups or sects or so-called cults. <!-- / message --> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 TRANSLATION BG 16.21 There are three gates leading to this hell—lust, anger and greed. Every sane man should give these up, for they lead to the degradation of the soul. Kulapavanna said, "I said that I have seen both gurus and disciples slide towards hellish destinations, that is: engage in abhorrent, immoral conduct, unbefitting a civilized human being, let alone a Vaishnava, with a mentality to justify and enjoy such wicked deeds." His observation is right in line with what Krsna said. False guru means someone who is motivated by some form or lust anger or greed. Cheating people by claiming and promoting oneself to be guru when one is not is a hellish act that reaps a hellish reaction. If someone follows such menatlity as it arises in a false guru then he partakes of the same fate. Some may realize their mistake and break off, some are just innocent of what is going on and never really develop the mentality of the false teacher. Supersoul deals with individuals, not groups or sects or so-called cults. <!-- / message --> I am interested in how Kulapavana has actually witnessed gurus and disciples in hell. One thing is what Krsna says, another is whether we see it in front of us. Krsna's words are open to interpretation according to just about anyone's fancy. If, as you say, Kulapavana's "hellish conditions" means people acting under the influence of greed, lust and anger, well, just about everyone is in hell even as they preach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 I am interested in how Kulapavana has actually witnessed gurus and disciples in hell. one of these "hells" really stands in my mind quite vividly: NV in the 80's, under the rule of one wayward "guru" and his croonies... you probably know the details... quite a few other devotees might describe that place and time as "hellish" as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 one of these "hells" really stands in my mind quite vividly: NV in the 80's, under the rule of one wayward "guru" and his croonies... you probably know the details... quite a few other devotees might describe that place and time as "hellish" as well... Thanks, thank you very much for replying to my question without side stepping into a judgment of the question itself. No, I don't know the details of the NV in the 80's situation. I have heard of it. I do have friends who where there, very much involved, and still hold that guru in their hearts. My friends seem safe though, still connected with Caitanya Mahaprabhu's movement. The only hellish thing about them, it seems, is a cronic state of poverty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 I do have friends who where there, very much involved, and still hold that guru in their hearts. My friends seem safe though, still connected with Caitanya Mahaprabhu's movement. The only hellish thing about them, it seems, is a cronic state of poverty. many others were not so lucky and have deep, deep scars from that time. actually, these are not scars. more like fissures in their mind. and yes, some people still hold in their hearts a person who was without much doubt a child molester and accomplice to murder, among other things. many there still think he is and was a pure devotee. you have to be seriously twisted to think like that. and as to the local chronic poverty... I know a devotee who personally raised millions of dollars for that "guru" while serving there over the years, even at a great expense to this devotee's health. there were many other devotees collecting money for him... where did it all go? well... it went into lots of things but the "guru" evidently still has quite a bit of it left, perhaps safely stashed away in a Swiss bank account... maybe for some the real hell is still waiting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 18, 2006 Report Share Posted July 18, 2006 I am interested in how Kulapavana has actually witnessed gurus and disciples in hell. One thing is what Krsna says, another is whether we see it in front of us. Krsna's words are open to interpretation according to just about anyone's fancy. Yes, it is playing on all around us. One who opens the gate or lust anger or greed and continues walking down that path gets involved in greater and greater hellish scenarios. Birth after birth one can become more and more entangled. Some are into war mongering. Some are attracted to open slaughter houses for animals and some may be more subtle in their deceit and aggression by cheating people from the role of "guru". We may try to impose our interpretation onto Krsna's word's. But this type of mental speculation will not be fruitful. Instead we must use our minds for philosophiucal speculation where we hear the meaning from a superior source and try to realize it. But even then realizations may be had from an unlimited number of angles. If, as you say, Kulapavana's "hellish conditions" means people acting under the influence of greed, lust and anger, well, just about everyone is in hell even as they preach. Yes this is an excellent point. That is why we must be humble and introspective when speaking to someone about the Lord. Important not to take a self-righteous stance as we try to "save the fallen". We are the fallen also until we are immersed in love for Krsna. Otherwise we are exhibiting our own penchant for false guruhood. So this is the mentality that we must cleanse from within our minds. Otherwise the only difference between a puffed up preacher on a street corner talking to one soul and a big "offical false guru" is one of degrees. That other guy may just have his trip down a lot more than me. And if not careful I could be in his position a few births from now. There is a continum there. Even demigods have a little demonic mentality in them and demons ususally have some goodness. They are distinquished by which mode is predominant. This is why the pure devotee is supeior to the demigods, he is spotless or suddha-sattva. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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