More on Gaurava

July 2, 2006

My apologies. I had intended to post this in the other thread where this discussion began (Getting beyond Narayana) but I notice that it has been closed. I was away for a few days and could not post. However, I think that the devotees will appreciate this post, so I am going ahead and starting a new thread. The moderators can stick it in with the other if they so choose.

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Gaurava:

As the word gaurava has already been defined by Govinda Maharaj to mean vidhi, I don't think it is really necessary for me to argue the definition of this word any more. Nevertheless, as Sishir Babu has objected to any use of the word other than ahankara, it might be helpful for him and others to go a little more deeply into it. With Govinda Maharaj's interpretation, the interpretation of the words pUjala and bhaGge are questionable.

The word is derived from guru. The word guru has two fundamental meanings—as an adjective, "weighty, heavy, serious" and, as a noun, "a weighty, heavy or serious person," i.e., someone respectable like a senior person, teacher or spiritual master. The noun guru gets its meaning from the adjectival sense, of course. A weighty person, a person possessing gravitas, i.e. a person who is respectable, is called a guru.

The word gaurava when connected to this latter sense means "related to a senior person or spiritual master." An example of this sense is found in Bhagavata 1.7.46 (Sridhara: gauravaM guru-sambandhi). Or the first chapter of Hari-bhakti-vilasa, which has the title "Gaurava." The word can also mean "a collectivity of senior persons or gurus." An example of this sense is in Govinda Lilamrita 17.43 (Vrindavan Chakravarti: gauravANAM guru-lokAnAM). Needless to say, neither of these meanings is intended in the verse under discussion. They are Sanskrit and it would be quite a stretch to use the word in this way in Bengali.

The word gaurava also has several other derivative meanings in Sanskrit, which will help to understand. It is often used to just mean weightiness or excessive length. For instance, commentators often write "grantha-gaurava-bhayAt atra na vistAritam"—"Out of fear of excessively lengthening (gaurava) this book, I am not going to discuss this subject any further." Again, this meaning is not intended here in gaurava-bhange.

As intimated above, the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu 3.2.144 gives us a hint of what is intended in the above context. The subject under discussion there is gaurava-priti, or affection that is tinged with gaurava. This is the mood of sons or younger brothers towards their father or older brother. It is affectionate (priti) but since it has an element of gaurava (respectfulness), it is included by Rupa Goswami in the department of dasya-rasa. Haridas Das (in the Abhidhan) comments: "Servants of Krishna always have a dominant awareness of Krishna's godly nature (aizvarya), but in those who are called lalya (i.e. children and younger brothers) there is a constant awareness of a their more intimate personal relationship."

As you can see from the list of Prabhupada's translations, there are three principal equivalents given: honor, awe and reverence and egoism. In view of the etymology of the word, we can see that the weightiness in question in the former two senses is where it is applied outwardly, toward a person other than oneself. In other words, the proper attitude towards someone who is guru is gaurava, i.e. respect.

Shishir Babu states that where sambhrama is hyphenated with gaurava this changes the sense. This is not correct. Sambhrama (fear, reverence) in these cases simply confirms the meaning of gaurava. This is a common rhetorical technique in Bengali, where synonyms are joined together to buttress each other. (See the Abhidhan under sambhrama, fourth meaning). On the other hand, I don't recall ever having heard "ahankara" used in close proximity with gaurava. Nor do I believe that the words can be substituted for each other. The word when translated as "pride" has a positive rather than negative sense. If I were to say "Rabindra is the pride of Bengalis everywhere" I could translate "Rabindranath bangalider gaurava." If I wanted to say he is a very proud man, however, I would use the words ahankari or abhimani, not gaurava or any form thereof.

In the Prabhupada translations given above, ahankar is the equivalent given in the interesting case of gaurava-caryayA in Dana-keli-kaumudi 2, quoted in CC 1.4.131 and glossed in CC 1.4.128-130. A beautiful and important verse, worthy of memorization and meditation. What makes it interesting in this context is that it can be looked at both ways, and indeed different commentators do so.

<center>vibhur api kalayan sadAbhivRddhiM

gurur api gaurava-caryayA vihInaH

muhur upacita-vakrimApi zuddho

jayati mura-dviSi rAdhikAnurAgaH</center>

<blockquote>All glories to Radha's love for Krishna,

the enemy of the demon Mura:

Although all-pervading, it increases with every moment,

Although guru, it does not behave with gaurava.

And although it is pure, it is always unpredictable.</blockquote>This verse is an example of virodhabhasa, or apparent contradiction. Though something possesses an attribute, it does not possess it, or possesses some contradictory attribute. It is worth remembering, though, that in Sanskrit such contradictions are sometimes based on puns rather than on the direct meaning, as if I were to say, "He has a piece, but has no peace." The contradiction is based on a pun. In my opinion, this is what is going on here. Even though the words are cognate, i.e., based on the same root as shown above, the expected meaning is not followed. In other words, in this verse though a possible translation is "though guru, [Radha's love] does not behave as though it were a guru; although weighty, it does not behave as though weighty; although very serious it does not take itself seriously," I hold that none of these meanings would be unexpected, and therefore they do not fulfill the conditions of virodhabhasa.

Let us examine these three possible meanings in the context of ahankara. Radha's love for Krishna is indeed weighty, or guru. As a matter of fact, just a few verses before this one, we find exactly such a statement. [How wonderful to be able to relish these verses of Krishna Das Kaviraj!]

<center> rAdhikA prema guru, Ami ziSya naTa

sadA AmA nAnA nRtye nAcAya udbhaTa</center>

<blockquote>Krishna says, "Radha's love is my guru. I am her dancing disciple. Her love just makes me dance madly in so many ways." (1.4.124) </blockquote>So Radha's love is guru to the Jagadguru Krishna. It controls him and makes him dance uncontrollably. He who is creator, maintainer and destroyer of the worlds, chases Radha's shadow in the hope of getting her touch, or even a whiff of her scent!

So Radha's love is guru, but what about the gaurava? What does this word mean here? In Krishnadas's own translation (1.4.129) we see that Prabhupada also translated it as ahankara.

<center>jaha boi guru vastu nahi sunischit

tathapi gurura dharma gaurava-varjita</center>

<blockquote>There is nothing in existence more weighty than Radha's love for Krishna, yet though it has the characteristics of weightiness (guru-dharma), it is free of gaurava. </blockquote>Here Krishnadas is contrasting guru-dharma, the characteristics of weightiness or the natural attributes of the guru, with gaurava, which really would mean literally the same thing. If we were talking about gurus in the terms of 1.4.124, then guru-dharma would mean literally "acting as the superior, acting as the senior or more weighty person."

In fact, however, we see that though Radharani's moods are constantly changing, she does not hesitate to take the dominant role. In fact, our acharyas have told us again and again that Radharani not only takes herself and her love seriously, but she demands that Krishna also take her seriously. In fact, if Radharani has no ahankara, it is in that she has crossed the barrier of humility in the knowledge that Krishna is pleased by her attitude of proprietorship towards him.

The commentary credited to Vishwanath confirms this: the section under debate is treated as follows: gaurava-caryayA dAkSiNya-caryayA hIno madIyatA-maya-madhu-snehotthatvAt: "The words gaurava-caryayA here mean without a submissive and compliant attitude, because she possesses the attitude of madhu-sneha which is dominated by a sense of possessiveness (mamatA)."

Submissiveness and compliance are the qualities of a dakSiNA nAyikA like Chandravali, who is afraid of losing Krishna if she affirms herself too strongly with him. Radha’s personality is strong and she is confident in the power of her love and her hold on her man. This is a characteristic of the level of love known as madhu-sneha, in which the lady love’s sense of possessiveness is stronger than her sense of belonging to her lover, or being his possession. Possessiveness (mamatA) is, of course, the eternal companion of ahantA. (See the last sections of Madhurya-kadambini, Anantadas's commentary.)

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, in his Anubhashya to 1.4.131 follows this interpretation exactly. Radha Govinda Nath gives two different glosses, the first is this one, the second is taken from the Sloka-mala and has the following: gurur api sarvotkarSo'pi gaurava-caryayA ahaGkAratayA vihIno rahitaH. I am fairly sure that Prabhupada did not use Radha Govinda Nath, so it is strange to see him following an interpretation that Nath has given rather than the one given in the Anubhashya.

So, the meaning of gaurava in the sense of treating the other with reverence—which Radharani does not do, because she is confident in her love (ahankara) and sense of possessiveness (mamatA)—the precise qualities that a guru is expected to be free of. Thus the virodhabhasa of Rupa Goswami's is doubly powerful and delightful. Radha's love is guru, but it does not behave like a guru—rather than being free of ahankara, it is loaded with it! But this delightful meaning is probably secondary. It comes from squeezing the fruit to get all the juice. The primary meaning is the one brought out by Vishwanath, which is that though guru, it does not behave with gaurava, i.e., does not have the accustomed awe and reverence toward Krishna that we expect a devotee to have for God. In this, we come back to the exact same meaning that I have been promoting.

Now let us consider the question of bhange and pujala. If we hold like Govinda Maharaj and others that pUjala rAga-patha gaurava-bhaGge means "The devotees worshiped the raga path [in a mood of awe and reverence] until the [addiction to] vidhi breaks down," we will run into a number of problems, both lexical and syntactical.

The main problem is with bhaGge. In my opinion, this is a clear case of locative construction of time. In Bengali, I can put a verbal noun into the locative case and that gives the sense of "upon, when, as soon as (especially if I add the enclitic –i)." Bhanga is a verbal noun, i.e., "breaking," and therefore I have rendered it as "upon the breaking down of the attitude of gaurava."

Bhanga is not, as far as I know, used as a verb in Bengali, though Bengali poetry is flexible enough to allow such a usage. Generally, however, if you want to use a verb for "break" you would use the derivative tad-bhava form, bhAMge. Gaurava bhAMge would mean "vidhi breaks." But this does not make much syntactical sense here, as the previous verb usages are in the simple past tense. "They worshiped the raga path; vidhi breaks."

Besides, this concept defies logic. How can one transcend awe and reverence through awe and reverence? This is why Lakshmi can engage in tapasya for a long time without every getting Krishna in Vrindavan—even though that is supposedly what she wants. Why not? Because she is approaching with a vidhi mentality without following in the footsteps of the gopis. You can't get free of the chains by putting on more chains.

So, can pUjala mean "worship from a distance" as Govinda Maharaj would have it? Certainly, the sadhakas of manjari bhava revere the mood of Srimati Radharani, but not in a spirit of distance or separation, but in the spirit of oneness with Radharani. This is the arrogance of the raganuga bhakta—he or she arrogates to him or herself a sense of identity with Radharani, "Radha is the vine and I AM THE PUSHPA, PALLAVA, PATA."

Not surprising then that Krishnadas Kaviraj writes the following verse which resembles in vocabulary and meter the very DKK verse on which this discussion is based:

<center>vibhur api sukha-rUpaH sva-prakAzo'pi bhAvaH

kSaNam api nahi rAdhA-kRSNayor yA Rte svAH |

pravahati rasa-puSTià cid-vibhUtir ivezaH

zrayati na padam AsAM kaH sakhINAM rasajJaH ||</center>

<blockquote>Though (from the point of view of siddhanta) Radha and Krishna's love for one another is vibhu, all-pervading (it needs no help to grow and expand), full of delight by nature (Radha and Krishna need only each other to experience complete joy) and self-luminous (it needs no help from any other quarter to be revealed), it still cannot for even a moment attain the fullness of flavor (rasa-puSTi) without the participation of the sakhis (and manjaris), any more than God Himself can realize his fullness without the manifestation of his spiritual energies. So what sensitive person would not take shelter of the sakhis' lotus feet? (GLA 10.17)</blockquote>Once again, I shiver with delight. This verse is also an example of the virodhabhasa. God is complete in himself, yet he needs his energies to fully manifest his joy. God is not complete without his energies. Similarly, God as the Divine Couple (another level of the conception of divine fullness) is still not complete without the manifestation of the unlimited sakhis and manjaris whose mission it is to serve their Union.

So, the raganuga bhakta is definitely engaged in puja of the ragatmika path. But that puja is not one of unadulterated awe and reverence. This does not mean that there is no wonder or amazement, as there is no rasa without amazement. (rasa-sAraz camatkAro yaM vinA na raso rasaH) The devotee is always amazed by the glories of Radha's prema.

Jai Vrishabhanu Nandini ki Jaya!!!

Kripamoya · July 2, 2006

Jagat says:

So, the raganuga bhakta is definitely engaged in puja of the ragatmika path. But that puja is not one of unadulterated awe and reverence. This does not mean that there is no wonder or amazement, as there is no rasa without amazement. (rasa-sAraz camatkAro yaM vinA na raso rasaH) The devotee is always amazed by the glories of Radha's prema.

Not really. Amazement is another term for aisvarya. The gopis are steeped in madhurya-rasa. The aisvarya-rasa is of the Vaikuntha realm.

There is no aisvarya in the mood of the gopis in Vraja.

It is all sweetness and intimacy.

The awe and reverence of aisvarya is for the devotees of Narayana in Vaikuntha.

That's why they call it "madhurya-rasa".

July 2, 2006

I quoted Kavi Karnapur who says, "Rasa is characterized by amazement, without which there is no such thing as rasa." (Alankara kaustubha, 5)

Amazement is not the same as aizvarya. Are the gopis not amazed by the power of Krishna's flute? It is precisely this amazement that makes it rasa. If it was ordinary, what would be the point? Intimacy does not make amazement possible.

As a matter of fact, it increases amazement through the sense of possessiveness--"This is amazing, and somehow I have been privileged to get some ownership of the experience. I am blessed, I am fortunate." These are all elements of rasa.

July 2, 2006

I means "intimacy does not make amazement impossible."

Kripamoya · July 2, 2006

I means "intimacy does not make amazement impossible."

Really?

Most of Radharani's intimate friends are disgusted with Krishna - not amazed.

They don't want anything to do with the boy that has broken the heart of Sri Radha.

They are amazed that Radharani can continue to love the boy that went off and left them for the big city.

they are amazed with Radha. they are disgusted with Krishna. :mad2:

July 2, 2006

I appreciate your acknowledgement that I was right. Amazement is possible in madhura rasa.

Kripamoya · July 2, 2006

I appreciate your acknowledgement that I was right. Amazement is possible in madhura rasa.

yup, you got me this time! :deal:

muralidhar_das · July 2, 2006

ANYONE READING THIS PLEASE NOTE:

I am writing on this thread solely for the reason of replying to Jagat's statements in regard to the verse of Prabhupada "matala harijana kirtana range pujala ragapatha gaurava bhange".

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER will I enter into any discussions with anyone other than Jagat on this forum. I am simply interested in responding to your statements (Jagat) about gaurava.

I would appreciate it if other persons with other issues in mind would leave this thread alone and use another thread to discuss any other issues that they want to discuss. Not being demanding here, but I merely want to have a clear discussion about this verse with Jagat without having other highly charged issues clouding over the discussion.

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Jagat, here is the full Chaitanya-Saraswat Math commentary to the verse.

Our commentary is not just words, but we can envisage the commentary as an image.

I have much larger images I can upload, but I believe the meaning is clear enough from this image.

muralidhar_das · July 2, 2006

I do not know how to speak Bangla at all, except that I know numbers and the names of some vegetables and fruit, and a few other related things. I can read the names of train stations written in Bengali as I go past them but that is the limit of my knowledge of Bengali.

But I really don't think that my lack of knowledge of that language is a major impediment to understanding the meaning of what Prabhupada was saying in that verse. This is because I have heard the meaning of the verse explained by three devotees who have conveyed the meaning to me in the preceptorial parampara. That is, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, who lived with Saraswati Thakur for several years and who was not only his personal assistant but was also consulting with Prabhupada about Sanskrit and Bengali slokas etc. Srila Sridhar Maharaj had very long and extensive siksa about the meaning that Saraswati Thakur meant to express when he presented this verse. The second person is Srila Govinda Maharaj, who lived with Guru Maharaj for fifty years and who had intimate relations with several other scholar-disciples of Saraswati Thakur including Bhakti Saranga Goswami, Yajavar Maharaj, Madhusudana Maharaj, Dol Govinda Shastri, etc. The third person who I have learned about this verse from is my senior godbrother Haricharan das Brahmacari, who joined the Math in 1952 and who lived in the room adjoining Srila Sridhar Maharaj's room for all that time. Haricharan is now the main siksa-guru of the Bengali devotees at the Math and he gives most of the daily classes held at the Math - Chaitanya Bhagavat in the afternoon, CC classes in the morning. He has been giving the classes there for a long time -- he was there doing that when I came to the Math in 1981.

So what I have to say is simply that I can pass on what I have received from these authorities. I do believe I can pass on what they had to say about that verse. Someone might say, "I don't believe Sridhar Maharaj really said what Murali says he said" but that is of no concern to me. I am Guru Maharaj's disciple and I just remember what he told me, and what I hear him saying on the 2,000 tape recorded discussions I have of Guru Maharaj speaking in English to his disciples. Again, whatever I have heard from Srila Govinda Maharaj I take to be the same as Guru Maharaj's advice. Other people may choke to hear me say that but I don't care. Goodbye to you. Don't bother reading anything I say beyond this full stop.

muralidhar_das · July 2, 2006

"From afar we shall worship the 'raga-patha,' the path of spontaneous affectionate service, while we ourselves live within the Vedic guideline."

http://www.scsmath.com/memories/04/040114_nbdwp_jms_webpage/index2.htm

This is the authoritative translation given from our Math, which you can see referenced at that URL.

shiva · July 2, 2006

Jagat you wrote

Besides, this concept defies logic. How can one transcend awe and reverence through awe and reverence?

In the same way that a student of medicine who is in awe and reverence of his teacher loses that awe and reverence when he becomes a trained experienced doctor. At that stage what was once seen as above you, becomes commonplace.

You then wrote

This is why Lakshmi can engage in tapasya for a long time without every getting Krishna in Vrindavan—even though that is supposedly what she wants. Why not? Because she is approaching with a vidhi mentality without following in the footsteps of the gopis. You can't get free of the chains by putting on more chains.

You're mixing up rasa tattva with existential ontology (which you do all of the time). Lakshmi is a personal expansion of Radha i.e she is Radha. So the idea of Lakshmi not being able to attain vrndavan has a deeper esoteric intent rather then simply saying it is because she is approaching with vidhi rather then raga.

The point of this idea is that raga doesn't come without a previous stage of awe and reverence. It is simply impossible to go to the higher level of intimacy with God unless you go through the non intimate stage beforehand. Before there is intimacy there is awe and reverence. It cannot be different unless you are born in the spiritual world.

You also wrote

Now let us consider the question of bhange and pujala. If we hold like Govinda Maharaj and others that pUjala rAga-patha gaurava-bhaGge means "The devotees worshiped the raga path [in a mood of awe and reverence] until the [addiction to] vidhi breaks down," we will run into a number of problems, both lexical and syntactical.

The main problem is with bhaGge. In my opinion, this is a clear case of locative construction of time. In Bengali, I can put a verbal noun into the locative case and that gives the sense of "upon, when, as soon as (especially if I add the enclitic –i)." Bhanga is a verbal noun, i.e., "breaking," and therefore I have rendered it as "upon the breaking down of the attitude of gaurava."

Bhanga is not, as far as I know, used as a verb in Bengali, though Bengali poetry is flexible enough to allow such a usage. Generally, however, if you want to use a verb for "break" you would use the derivative tad-bhava form, bhAMge. Gaurava bhAMge would mean "vidhi breaks." But this does not make much syntactical sense here, as the previous verb usages are in the simple past tense. "They worshiped the raga path; vidhi breaks."

Clearly Govinda Maharaja was paraphrasing for his vaisnava sadhaka audience. If we use your strict translation then we don't necessarily end up with the true intent of the verse. Your translation of "upon the breaking down of the attitude of gaurava" doesn't necessarily convey the intent of the verse. Someone's gaurava can break down but not necessarily due to intimacy e.g a person may give up respect and reverence out of hatred or disbelief etc.

You also wrote

Certainly, the sadhakas of manjari bhava revere the mood of Srimati Radharani, but not in a spirit of distance or separation, but in the spirit of oneness with Radharani. This is the arrogance of the raganuga bhakta—he or she arrogates to him or herself a sense of identity with Radharani, "Radha is the vine and I AM THE PUSHPA, PALLAVA, PATA."

I would have to disagree that the "arrogance of the raganuga bhakta" is what you claim. The manjaris or any residents of vraja are not practicing bhakti yoga, they are ragatmika bhaktas living spontaenously without thoughts of attaining something higher then where they are. Someone who is not them nor who has ever spoken to them, shouldn't speculate on their inner thoughts, otherwise they can only come across as arrogant. The raganuga bhakta willl see a oneness with Radha but it is not due to "arrogance" rather it is due to self realization i.e they experience their oneness with God. The manjaris in vraja do not see themselves as leaves of the Radha vine, they are not self realized souls, they are simple cowherd girls.

muralidhar_das · July 2, 2006

Now let us consider the question of bhange and pujala. If we hold like Govinda Maharaj and others that pUjala rAga-patha gaurava-bhaGge means "The devotees worshiped the raga path [in a mood of awe and reverence] until the [addiction to] vidhi breaks down," we will run into a number of problems, both lexical and syntactical.

and

So, can pUjala mean "worship from a distance" as Govinda Maharaj would have it? Certainly, the sadhakas of manjari bhava revere the mood of Srimati Radharani, but not in a spirit of distance or separation, but in the spirit of oneness with Radharani. This is the arrogance of the raganuga bhakta—he or she arrogates to him or herself a sense of identity with Radharani, "Radha is the vine and I AM THE PUSHPA, PALLAVA, PATA."

The image I posted above shows how we "worship from a distance".

We identify ourselves as members of the sankirtana. We are in the "lower level" and we don't presume to imagine ourselves as members of the group that is playing on the higher level.

In regard to this "arrogance of the raganuga bhakta"... As a disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj I will say that my Guru Maharja would say he "despises" people who relish that kind of arrogance you speak about.

The Vrajabasis may feel some sort of intimacy with Sri Krishna and have some sort of jovial play with him. But for people of a lower level than that, people who are on a lower level than Srila Gaurakishore das Babaji, and people who are awake in this world of duality that I see before me, those people who are awake on the lower plane should never speak any words of arrogance.

We, who are in the plane of existence where we are going on with the sankirtan, we are followers of the maxim "trnad api sunicena, taror api sahisnuna". Following this maxim as our primary understanding about our "self" (I am a worm in stool) we see ourselves as being about as insignificant as a bit of straw on the roadside. That is, we don't have a self image of thinking "I am a gopi" (or manjari). We think, "I am a worm". This is the philosophy taught to me by Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj and Sri Haricharan das Brahmacari.

We devotees of SCSMath (and ISKCON) are on the lower level. We are engaged in Sankirtan. We don't imagine we know our siddha-deha and that we have already got some intimate understanding about life in the higher plane of existence. We know some general information about the higher lilas which our Guru Maharaj and Prabhupada Srila Swami Maharaj have given us in his "Krsna Book". But our Gurus don't tell us about our siddha-deha and we don't have any manjari name given to us by our Guru. We don't get instruction in such things. We are simply going on with our service and participating in the sankirtan-yajna we have been initiated into by Sri Guru. We offer our words of "Hari-kirtan" as an offering to Bhagavan Sri Chaitanyadeva.

How will worms such as myself ever get to the higher world?

The answer to that is given in a recent article by Sripad Bhakt Sudhir Goswami named "Getting Beyond Narayan".

Goswami Maharaj quotes Srila Govinda Maharaj as having said this about the meditation my Guru Maharaj was absorbed in in the final days of his life on earth:

if we want to tell something about the final days of Srila Guru Maharaja then we shall have to say that in his last time he was incessantly crying out for the mercy of Nityananda Prabhu, "Dayal Nitai, Dayal Nitai, Dayal Nitai!" Nitai koruna habe braje Radha Krishna pabe — ‘If Nityananda Prabhu is merciful then it may be possible [to enter Vrindavan].' So you take shelter to the lotus feet of Nityananda — that is safety for your life. Not to imitate anything. But Nityananda Prabhu is so merciful he will give shelter to you and you will get shelter in Krishna-lila under the guidance of Rupa Goswami, Sanatan Goswami… — Srila Govinda Maharaja

I can confirm to you that this was, indeed, the meditation Guru Maharaj was feeling in those last weeks and days of his life on earth. I remember it. I was there.

July 3, 2006

Jai Radhe! Muralidharji.

Dandavats. As you indicate, getting involved in these forums can be very addictive. Like you, I can't really afford to get entangled in a protracted debate either.

To me, Vaishnava sanga means "bodhayantaH parasparam tusyanti ca ramanti ca" and "parasparanukathanam" etc. That is the spirit in which I made the above post.

What do devotees do? They like to glorify their Lord. Why? Because through hearing and chanting they experience rasa. There is wonderment in the siddhanta and in the lila. The trouble with an open forum, of course, is that association is not always snigdha, not always svajatiya, what to speak of svato-vare. Which is somewhat unfortunate, as ostensibly it is our goal to attain the lotus feet of Srimati Radharani. At any rate, my opinion on such things is that you put it out there and those who have ears to hear will hear.

I believe I know well enough what Govinda Maharaj and the Gaudiya Math's interpretation of this verse is. It has been pointed at me often enough. I also believe that my interpretation more accurately communicates its intention. I have enough faith in Siddhanta Saraswati's insights to believe that my interpretation accurately reflects what he meant by it. And if he did not, then I believe that this is Vagdevi's intention, speaking through him.

My ultimate feelings on this issue only become stronger with the passage of time. Though I have great respect for everyone who spreads the Holy Name and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's glories, I reserve my greatest respect for Srila Rupa Goswami. Saraswati Thakur said with his dying breath to honor and follow Rupa and Raghunath. How then can I consider as an ultimate authority a person who states that he never read Rupa Goswami's most important contribution, Ujjvala-nilamani?

As I stated on the other thread, the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu states that madhura rasa is inappropriate for those who are in the renounced order of life. The reasons for this are clearly expressed in the Gaudiya Math--discussions of madhura rasa can be troublesome for someone who has taken a vow of celibacy and who believes that the withering of sex desire is coterminus with attaining the ultimate goal of life. But if the goal of life is prema, mediated through the Divine Couple and manifest in their lila, then how can we so proudly say that we only worship it from afar? To me, this is a case of phalgu-vairagya, or renouncing things that are connected to Krishna. OK, so it is not so much renouncing as avoiding, in the hope that one day, when your sex desire is gone, you will be able to "really" appreciate it. My opinion of this is that it is elitist and sexist.

I think we have discussed these points many times and I don't see how doing so again is going to benefit anyone, except those who perhaps are seeing such a discussion for the first time. Perhaps Raga can direct those who are interested to the relevant threads in the GD archive or elsewhere.

I hold that 10.29.40 (vikrIDitam etc.) clearly indicates that one does not have to be free of kama in order to hear and discuss the rasa lila. Therefore I recommend hearing and discussing the rasa lila for everyone. Please observe that I do not say, "without siddhanta." As you have probably deduced from my comments in the past, I happen to like siddhanta. But I place siddhanta in a relative position of importance inasmuch as it is anukula to prema.

Whether one is renounced or not, the yogic goal of Vaishnavism, like all yogic practices, is to sublimate the sexual energy into the direction of purer spiritual achievements. I therefore have nothing in particular against those who choose the harder route of full celibacy, as they ultimately have the same goal as I. I am even willing to accept that there is certainly wisdom and insight to be had from such renunciation, but in the long run, my experience tells me that it creates a number of false dichotomies that are antithetical to the very principle of prema and which leads bhaktas to deny the very symbols of that prema, Radha and Krishna.

Therefore, I vehemently state that the celibates have framed the debate for too long in the bhakti movement. It is time that sexuality was normalized and given its proper due in Krishna consciousness. By reducing the measure of a person's spiritual life to the actions of his genitals we are depriving ourselves of much of what is most glorious about bhakti to the Divine Couple, especially when avoidance of even talk or smaran of Radha and Krishna is considered to be a point of pride!!

So I doubt that we will come to any agreement about these issues, especially since it has become a slogan to say that one is a student for one's entire life, and so one should remain in the lower classes all one's life. A real student is thirsty for knowledge, especially the kind of knowledge that leads to prema (anukula, see commentaries to the anyabhilashita verse), and so will thirst for coming to the crest jewel of Rupa Goswami's gifts to mankind, the Ujjvala-nilamani.

Perhaps Sridhara Maharaja was exaggerating. Probably so. Still, I think the use of such quotes, as with other similar ones heard in the Gaudiya Math, has a negative rather than positive effect on the overall depth and breadth of our spirituality and our understanding of what the Divine Couple are all about.

July 3, 2006

Of course, I used this word rhetorically. It is not real arrogance at all.

muralidhar_das · July 3, 2006

How can one transcend awe and reverence through awe and reverence? This is why Lakshmi can engage in tapasya for a long time without every getting Krishna in Vrindavan—even though that is supposedly what she wants. Why not? Because she is approaching with a vidhi mentality without following in the footsteps of the gopis. You can't get free of the chains by putting on more chains.

So, can pUjala mean "worship from a distance" as Govinda Maharaj would have it? Certainly, the sadhakas of manjari bhava revere the mood of Srimati Radharani, but not in a spirit of distance or separation, but in the spirit of oneness with Radharani. This is the arrogance of the raganuga bhakta—he or she arrogates to him or herself a sense of identity with Radharani, "Radha is the vine and I AM THE PUSHPA, PALLAVA, PATA."

I want to also bring attention to another aspect of this thing you said, Jagat.

Das Goswami said:

sakhyaya te mama namo'stu namo'stu nityam

dasyaya te mama raso'stu raso'stu satyam

This verse is also found in Sudhir Goswami's "Getting Beyond Narayan". He didn't elaborate on this when he quoted it, but for those who know Guru Maharaj's teachings just the mention of that verse brings up a whole panorama and a scenery we see through insight, remembering what Guru Maharaj revealed to us.

This verse, factually, is one of Srila Saraswati Thakur's most favourite quotes, according to my Guru Maharaj.

Your logic is strange, Jagat. Your logic seems to be "How can these devotees who are constantly feeling lowly and insignificant ever get raga?" But my Guru Maharaj taught us that this approach, this realizing that we are lower than worms, in relativity to the chintamani realm where every person is "Guru" to us, this approach is the very mood of Das Goswami himself. If we appreciate his mood, perhaps then we will get to render service within his group of servitors.

sakhyaya te mama namo'stu namo'stu nityam

dasyaya te mama raso'stu raso'stu satyam

muralidhar_das · July 3, 2006

As I stated on the other thread, the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu states that madhura rasa is inappropriate for those who are in the renounced order of life.

Can you advise me which verse of BRS state this.

If this were the case, how does this relate to your statement "How then can I consider as an ultimate authority a person who states that he never read Rupa Goswami's most important contribution, Ujjvala-nilamani?"

But then, if I say "OK", should married me engaged in sex should study madhura rasa but not babajis? Maybe the monkey babajis who have girlfriends (or widows) as their consorts are doing the right thing to improve the quality of their bhajan. Does this naturally follow on from what you say?

Not meaning to be harsh, Jagat, and not meaning any personal critique, but the question is fair, isn't it?

July 3, 2006

And this is one of my most beloved verses also. What does it mean? This verse is a glorification of manjari bhava. It means that those who are Radha's dasis do not have any desire to have the kind of relationship with Radha that Lalita and Visakha or the other yuthesvaris enjoy. They prefer to place themselves in a position of service to Radha and her lila with Krishna.

I don't know what other meanings you draw from it. I certainly don't use it as a hammer to beat on people who want to serve Srimati Radharani by following in the footsteps of Rupa Goswami as he prescribed--sevA sAdhaka-rUpeNa siddha-rUpeNa cAtra hi.

My personal position, as already stated, is that indicated by many verses in the Bhagavatam, including a favorite--

yAn AsthAya naro rAjan na pramAdyeta karhicit

dhAvan nimIlya vA netre na skhalen na pated iha

One who is situated in the Bhagavata Dharma can never be misled. Even if he runs on this path with his eyes closed, he will neither trip nor fall. (11.2.35)

or tyaktvA sva-dharmaM etc. "What does one gain by remaining in his sva-dharma if he does not engage in bhajan. Even if one falls down due to immaturity while engaged in bhajan, that is better." (1.5.17)

Or nehAbhikrama-nAzo'sti "In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution. Even a little effort brings the greatest benefit."

So it is certainly true that there is a little bit of seeming arrogance in the disciple who rejects the instructions of a guru that are meant to hold him back. But in this matter we have a number of examples also, beginning with gurur na sa syAt (5.5.8), which though it talks about "na mocayed yaH samupeta-mRtyum" is basically the same principle. It's about reaching further, about vyavahara and paramartha. The paramartha here is Radha-dasya. If Nitai's karuna is the first step, that does not mean it is the last. Nitai appeared to Krishnadas Kaviraj and told him to go to Vrindavan, where all his desires would be fulfilled. Kripa has its manifestation in action. We must all do the needful to get the mercy. It might not be the same for everyone.

<blockquote>Sukracharya advised his royal disciple Bali to pursue his selfish interest rather than acquiesce to the incarnation Vamana’s request for charity. Shukra warned him that by giving to Vamana, he would lose all his worldly possessions. Bali, however, was able to see that he was being misled by his teacher and so he rejected him.

Prahlada was the devotee son of a great demon, Hiranyakashipu. Even though it is a son’s primary duty to serve and obey his father, when Hiranyakashipu ordered him to reject devotional service to the Lord, Prahlada refused to do so. And he continued to reject Hiranyakashipu’s order even when his father brought to bear all the forces of coercion at his disposal. Ultimately, he was proved right when Lord Nrisingha appeared to protect him from his evil father’s efforts to kill him.

In the Ramayana, Rama’s younger brother Bharata refused to obey his mother Kaikeyi when she told him to take the throne in Rama’s place. The king Khatvanga refused to obey the gods when they insisted that he continue fighting on their behalf in the wars against the demons. Because he knew his death was imminent, he wanted to engage in direct devotional service to Krishna. The Bhagavatam says that when he made this decision, he attained spiritual perfection in an instant, simply through his act of courageous refusal.

Another example is that of the brahmins’ wives, whose story is told in the tenth canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam. Once, Krishna and his friends were out pasturing the cows when they started to feel very hungry. Krishna sent some of the boys to a nearby brahmin village near Vrindavan where a group of Vedic brahmins was performing sacrifices. Normally, feeding guests forms a part of any religious function, and this is especially true in the case of such sacrifices. Krishna knew that even though the sacrifice itself was not finished, the point in proceedings had come when the sacrificial remnants in the form of food could be distributed. Of course, the privileged guests at any sacrificial feast would be other brahmins, and not mere cowherds. So the brahmins refused the boys, thinking that they had no obligation to give them charity, even when they knew that Krishna himself had sent them. Puffed up with their own importance and unconcerned about Krishna, they sent the boys back.

When Krishna saw the disappointed look on his friends’ faces, he knew that they had failed to get any sympathy from the priests. He laughed and said, “A mendicant should never expect to get something every time he asks for a handout. You’ll just have to keep on trying and eventually you will be lucky.”

In fact, Krishna knew that the brahmins’ wives had long been hearing about his prowess, about his beauty and his heroic deeds. He told the boys that they would have more success if they approached these pious women rather than their husbands and asked them for something to eat on his behalf. “Tell them,” he said, “that I have come with Balaram. They are affectionate toward me, so I am sure they will give you ample foodstuffs.”

The boys went to the brahmins’ compound again and this time walked directly to the women’s quarters. There they repeated Krishna’s words. As soon as the wives heard that Krishna was hungry, they immediately gathered the food that they had prepared for the sacrifice and started to take it to him, flowing toward him as naturally as rivers flow to the ocean. Their husbands, brothers, friends and children all tried to block their way, but they had so long cherished the desire to see Krishna in person that they could not be stopped.

And of course, the same applies to the gopis, who not only could not be stopped by their husbands, brothers, and family members, but could not even be turned back by Krishna himself when he told them to go home!

In each of the above cases, these exemplary devotees were able to reject the commands of their authorities because they recognized them as relative. When faced with the opportunity to serve the Absolute, they rejected their conventional authorities. The words used in Sanskrit are vyavahärika (“conventional, functional or relative”) and päramärthika (“real, essential, true, related to the highest spiritual truth”). This is the intent of Krishna’s final instruction in the Bhagavad Gita, “Give up all other obligations and simply surrender to me.”</blockquote>

Vyavaharika and paramarthika are relative to one's situation, of course. The Bhagavata says, tAvat karmANi kurvIta, na nirvidyeta yAvatA, mat-kathA-zravaNAdau vA zraddhA yAvan na jAyate (11.20.9) paraphrased: Your faith is your adhikara. When your adhikara changes, naturally your gurus will change.

This is what you too said on the basis of your illustration. But I say, what's wrong with moving your adhikara along? The adhikara for raganuga bhakti is lobha. Lobha is basically sraddha of a different sort.

muralidhar_das · July 3, 2006

But if the goal of life is prema, mediated through the Divine Couple and manifest in their lila, then how can we so proudly say that we only worship it from afar?.

This shows how far apart we really are Jagat. I have been told that I should not "seek" (desire to aquire attainments such as Prema (which the Lord can grant or not grant according to His Sweet Will)) but that I should "serve". That is, in Srila Sridhar Maharaj's words, become "self forgetful". Or in other words, "Die to Live".

In this connection, he (Saraswati Thakur) told us, "You all know that only the bogus, hollow people and men of shallow thinking like Vrndavana." I was very much perplexed to hear this. I had been told that Vrndavana is the highest place of spiritual perfection. I had heard that one who has not mastered his senses cannot enter Vrndavana. Only the liberated souls can enter Vrndavana and have the opportunity of discussing krsna-lila. Vrndavana is for the liberated souls. Those who are not liberated from the demands of their senses may live in Navadwipa, but the liberated souls may live in Vrndavana. Now Prabhupada was saying tha the shallow thinkers appreciate Vrndavana, but a man of real bhajana, real divine aspiration, will aspire to live in Kuruksetra.

Hearing this, I felt as if I had fallen from the top of a tree. "What is this?" I thought. I am a very acute listener, so I was very keen to catch the meaning of his words. The next thought he gave us was that Bhaktivinoda Thakura, after visiting many different places of pilgrimage, remarked, "I would like to spend the last days of my life in Kuruksetra. I shall construct a cottage near Brahma-kunda and pass the rest of my life there. Kuruksetra is the real place of bhajana." man of real bhajana, real divine aspiration, will aspire to live in Kuruksetra. Hearing this, I felt as if I had fallen from the top of a tree. "What is this?" I thought. I am a very acute listener, so I was very keen to catch the meaning of his words. The next thought he gave us was that Bhaktivinoda Thakura, after visiting many different places of pilgrimage, remarked, "I would like to spend the last days of my life in Kuruksetra. I shall construct a cottage near Brahma-kunda and pass the rest of my life there. Kuruksetra is the real place of bhajana."

Why? Service is more valuable according to the intensity of its necessity. Shrewd merchants seek a market in wartime because in that dangerous position, money is spent like water, without any care for its value. They can earn more money if a war comes. In the same way, when Srimati Radharani's necessity reaches its zenith, service to Her becomes extremely valuable. According to its necessity, service is valued. And in Kuruksetra, Srimati Radharani is in the highest necessity because Krishna is so close, but Their Vrndavana lila is impossible. in a football game, if the ball is just inches from the goal, but again comes back, it is considered a great loss. In the same way, after a long separation, Krishna is there in Kuruksetra, so the hankering for union felt by His devotees must come to its greatest point, but because He is in the role of a king, they cannot meet intimately. The circumstances do not allow the Vrndavana lila to take place. So at that time, Srimati Radharani needs the highest service from Her group, the sakhis.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that in that situation, a drop of service will draw the greatest amount of prema, divine love. In the pastimes of Radha-Govinda, there are two aspects: sambhoga, divine union, and vipralambha, divine separation. When Radha and Krishna are very near to each other, but can't meet intimately, service at that time can draw the greatest gain for the servitors. Therefore, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, "I shall construct a hut on the banks of Brahmakunda in Kuruksetra and contemplate rendering service to the Divine Couple. If I can achieve that standard where the prospect of service is so high, then there is no possibility of returning to this mundane plane at any time."

Kripamoya · July 3, 2006

Jai Radhe! Muralidharji.

Dandavats. As you indicate, getting involved in these forums can be very addictive. Like you, I can't really afford to get entangled in a protracted debate either.

To me, Vaishnava sanga means "bodhayantaH parasparam tusyanti ca ramanti ca" and "parasparanukathanam" etc. That is the spirit in which I made the above post.

What do devotees do? They like to glorify their Lord. Why? Because through hearing and chanting they experience rasa. There is wonderment in the siddhanta and in the lila. The trouble with an open forum, of course, is that association is not always snigdha, not always svajatiya, what to speak of svato-vare. Which is somewhat unfortunate, as ostensibly it is our goal to attain the lotus feet of Srimati Radharani. At any rate, my opinion on such things is that you put it out there and those who have ears to hear will hear.

I believe I know well enough what Govinda Maharaj and the Gaudiya Math's interpretation of this verse is. It has been pointed at me often enough. I also believe that my interpretation more accurately communicates its intention. I have enough faith in Siddhanta Saraswati's insights to believe that my interpretation accurately reflects what he meant by it. And if he did not, then I believe that this is Vagdevi's intention, speaking through him.

My ultimate feelings on this issue only become stronger with the passage of time. Though I have great respect for everyone who spreads the Holy Name and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's glories, I reserve my greatest respect for Srila Rupa Goswami. Saraswati Thakur said with his dying breath to honor and follow Rupa and Raghunath. How then can I consider as an ultimate authority a person who states that he never read Rupa Goswami's most important contribution, Ujjvala-nilamani?

As I stated on the other thread, the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu states that madhura rasa is inappropriate for those who are in the renounced order of life. The reasons for this are clearly expressed in the Gaudiya Math--discussions of madhura rasa can be troublesome for someone who has taken a vow of celibacy and who believes that the withering of sex desire is coterminus with attaining the ultimate goal of life. But if the goal of life is prema, mediated through the Divine Couple and manifest in their lila, then how can we so proudly say that we only worship it from afar? To me, this is a case of phalgu-vairagya, or renouncing things that are connected to Krishna. OK, so it is not so much renouncing as avoiding, in the hope that one day, when your sex desire is gone, you will be able to "really" appreciate it. My opinion of this is that it is elitist and sexist.

I think we have discussed these points many times and I don't see how doing so again is going to benefit anyone, except those who perhaps are seeing such a discussion for the first time. Perhaps Raga can direct those who are interested to the relevant threads in the GD archive or elsewhere.

I hold that 10.29.40 (vikrIDitam etc.) clearly indicates that one does not have to be free of kama in order to hear and discuss the rasa lila. Therefore I recommend hearing and discussing the rasa lila for everyone. Please observe that I do not say, "without siddhanta." As you have probably deduced from my comments in the past, I happen to like siddhanta. But I place siddhanta in a relative position of importance inasmuch as it is anukula to prema.

Whether one is renounced or not, the yogic goal of Vaishnavism, like all yogic practices, is to sublimate the sexual energy into the direction of purer spiritual achievements. I therefore have nothing in particular against those who choose the harder route of full celibacy, as they ultimately have the same goal as I. I am even willing to accept that there is certainly wisdom and insight to be had from such renunciation, but in the long run, my experience tells me that it creates a number of false dichotomies that are antithetical to the very principle of prema and which leads bhaktas to deny the very symbols of that prema, Radha and Krishna.

Therefore, I vehemently state that the celibates have framed the debate for too long in the bhakti movement. It is time that sexuality was normalized and given its proper due in Krishna consciousness. By reducing the measure of a person's spiritual life to the actions of his genitals we are depriving ourselves of much of what is most glorious about bhakti to the Divine Couple, especially when avoidance of even talk or smaran of Radha and Krishna is considered to be a point of pride!!

So I doubt that we will come to any agreement about these issues, especially since it has become a slogan to say that one is a student for one's entire life, and so one should remain in the lower classes all one's life. A real student is thirsty for knowledge, especially the kind of knowledge that leads to prema (anukula, see commentaries to the anyabhilashita verse), and so will thirst for coming to the crest jewel of Rupa Goswami's gifts to mankind, the Ujjvala-nilamani.

Perhaps Sridhara Maharaja was exaggerating. Probably so. Still, I think the use of such quotes, as with other similar ones heard in the Gaudiya Math, has a negative rather than positive effect on the overall depth and breadth of our spirituality and our understanding of what the Divine Couple are all about.

After having said that and explained your feelings, now all you need to do is really get down and honest with yourself to find out if you have really attained prema, or have just acquired some language skills in a dry life of material pursuit?

Because none of your logic, reasoning or thinking amounts to didly if you haven't really tasted the nectar as did Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

Thats the difference between you and Sridhar Maharaja.

He actually attained svarup-siddhi without having to read Ujjvala-nilamani, whilst so many bookworms who have intruded there are still having problems with controlling their genitals and are light years away from svarupa-siddhi.

Who's system really works?

Be honest Jagat.

Yours hasn't.

muralidhar_das · July 3, 2006

And this is one of my most beloved verses also. What does it mean? This verse is a glorification of manjari bhava. It means that those who are Radha's dasis do not have any desire to have the kind of relationship with Radha that Lalita and Visakha or the other yuthesvaris enjoy. They prefer to place themselves in a position of service to Radha and her lila with Krishna.

I don't know what other meanings you draw from it.

The meaning you have given is the same one we have heard from Guru Maharaj.

My commentary here is that Guru Maharaj taught us we should always seek to be in the servitor group and not in the group who feel some more bold feelings than that of the servitors.

July 3, 2006

Maybe the monkey babajis who have girlfriends (or widows) as their consorts are doing the right thing to improve the quality of their bhajan. Does this naturally follow on from what you say?

Of course, this objection is to be expected. Just see how you use the term "monkey" to describe these babajis. I am sure the "monkey babajis" are all going to hell.

I have no idea about any group of people. I cannot speak of a class of people. Everyone will have to answer for their spiritual life before God. Sexuality is an aspect of human life. A philosophy that says sexuality is fundamentally against spiritual life is making a statement that denies humanity. The assumption that any Vaishnava who has taken a female companion is automatically a monkey is prejudicial in the extreme and shows that you are a victim of propaganda.

A society that has prejudices against all forms of human sexuality except for its procreative function tends to create an unnatural state of affairs in the most important areas of individual affective and physical need. Sexuality is obviously a complex area of human psychology, prone to corruption and misuse, but to make its denial the summum bonum of human spiritual achievement is simply wrong. To make hearing and chanting about Radha and Krishna somehow dependent on attaining this obscure and rarified state is, as I said, a bit of elitism that leads to sexism and all kinds of other nonsense. In fact, it may well be this attitude that creates the "monkey babajis."

muralidhar_das · July 3, 2006

Jagat I didn't mean to rude but if I put the words there in a straightforward way I am simply speaking about a plain and simple fact. No offence intended but you get the gist of what I mean to say, I hope.

July 3, 2006

Exactly, so we believe in service. We have something in common! Actually, I spent many years in Iskcon and the Gaudiya Math, so I have imbibed many of the ideas from these sources. I am not rejecting all of them. In fact, I have stated many times that I am respectful of Saraswati Thakur's reforms. This is surprising to some people who think that I should be inimical to him and his movement.

As to Kshamabuddhi, who insists that I do not have prema. True, Kshamabuddhi. You got me.

Kripamoya · July 3, 2006

Jagat,

Sridhar Maharaja didn't read Ujjvala-nilamani.

He realized ujjvala-rasa.

He found a formula that worked by fanatically following something that was given to him by Srila Saraswati Goswami.

You read Ujjvala-nilamani, yet have spend the last 20 years trying to satisfy your wife.

Who found a system that REALLY WORKED?

clue: Sridhar Maharaja

July 3, 2006

I don't know why knowledge always has to be prefaced by the word "dry." As far as I can recall, Krishna says that studying Vaishnava shastras is "worshiping him with the intelligence." I believe in worshiping Krishna with all my senses, including my intelligence. Krishna has a lot of good things to say about using one's intelligence, about the jnana-yajna, etc. So I don't see why anyone should be prejudiced against it.

One of the reasons we respect many of the sannyasis in the Gaudiya Math is because they were scholars. Why should someone else's scholarship be inferior? Because they happen to disagree? Someone just said on another thread, let them prove themselves.

My point is about pride. If you say you worship from afar out of pride, that is not helpful. But the real point is in the definition of lobha. This is the point I am really trying to make. The gopis had lobha and so they did not listen to Krishna, even when he tested them by telling them to turn back. This was, indeed, why Krishna was beholden to them. Externally, as the guru, he told them to stay. Internally, as the antaryami, he told them to stay. They stayed.

This is the idea behind Vishwanath's glorious verse that I am about to quote. Please, please take the time to relish this verse. Memorize the Sanskrit. I promise you, you will get great joy from this verse. I promise you too, KB. Read this verse with LOVE. Just love it.

loka-dvayAt svajanataH parataH svato vA

prANa-priyAd api sumeru-samA yadi syuH

klezAs tad apy atibalI sahasA vijitya

premaiva tAn harir ibhAn iva puSTim eti

As a strong lion defeats many elephants

and then becomes further nourished

and strengthened by feeding on them,

so too does sacred love, when exceedingly great,

conquer all obstacles before it,

whether they come from this world or the next,

from enemies or from family members,

from one’s own body or the things connected to it,

or even from that dearest one

who is the object of the love itself.

Even if such obstacles should be as vast

as the immeasurable Mount Meru,

sacred love will conquer them and,

having conquered,

become stronger and more vital. (Prema-sampuöikä, 54.)

It is a question of adhikara, and lobha gives the adhikara. As with all human endeavors, by making the leap of faith, one gets the benefit. Without the leap, one will never know.

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