Why isn't there a Prabhupada Guru who comes to save me and gives me full shelter???

[theist 1]

 

Hi theist, are you a member of ISKCON?

 

since ISKCON has many problems at the present. What is the best way to pursue Krishna Consciousness? to chant and read books at home, and try to fellowship with devotees online?

 

should one seek out another Gaudiya Guru to initiate them? I am not a member of ISKCON, what would be the best way for me to personally seek Krsna?

 

Hare Krsna guest,

 

I am not a member of Iskcon. I lived in a couple of temples all total for less than a year. The discipline was too strict for a guy like me so I couldn't hack it. No politics involved as this was back in 71 and things were different. I lasted about six months and then decided to move out. The leap from hard core hippy to a vaisnava brahmacari was just too wide for me.:-) I haved stayed on the fringes mostly.

 

Iskcon has been a very good influence in my life in many many ways. But I stopped any serious association with Iskcon in 1977 when they invented the zonal guru fiasco and remain aloof today while they wrestle with their brains over how to appoint gurus.

 

Which brings us to an essential point. The representative of God is not revealed to us by some religious body acting in their ecclesiastical capacity. "Acarya is self effulgent". But how can we see the effulgence of the acarya when we are locked in to material vision? We can't. We are helpless to know who is guru and who is a pretender. Nor can we rely on the advice of others in such an important matter.

 

The answer is so simple. Prabhupada told us "By the grace of Krsna one gets guru. By the grace of guru one gets Krsna." The whole thing is explained right in those two sentences. The answer to your question is to 1st seek the grace of Krsna. He will then reveal your guru to you. As we are learning, God is a person, the Supreme Person. In the Gita Krsna tells us that from within the heart of everyone He is directing the wanderings of all conditioned souls. In the Isopanishad He is referred to as the One who has been fullfilling the desires of everyone since time immemorial. If you cultivate a SINCERE desire to hear from His authentic representative Krsna will direct you to him. No doubt about it.

 

Don't trust anyone else's direction. On this board like any other you are likely to get so much advice, "this person is best go there", someone else will say, " No come over this way and you will find the best guru." Now someones advice may even be true but if it is then Krsna will tell you so. Wait AND PRAY for His direction. His voice is always there but it is incombent on us to learn how to hear it. How do we get those ears? He will give us the ears to hear Him. Remember in the Gita Arjuna wanted to see a particular manifestation of Krsna. What did he do ? He asked Krsna to please show him that Universal Form. Krsna fullfilled Ajuna's desire by first giving him divine eyes or the ability to perceive Him in that form.

 

The representative of Krsna is another manifestation of Krsna. So we should follow Arjuna in asking Krsna to reveal Himself as He is in the form of Sri Guru.

 

Don't be in a hurry to get initiated. Don't chase guru bodies around the world. There are many questions you need to ask yourself along the way first. Like why do you want to get initiated? Is it to fit in with the larger devotee community socially or is it to receive divine knowledge and come to know and love God? Your motive will determine your fate.

 

I find that kinda scarey myself. It puts the responsability for my future clearly on to my own shoulders. I know I am attached to many unhealthy desires, my motives are never pure. What do we do? We pray for Krsna's grace, for Him to intervene in our hapless journey through matter by giving us a desire to hear the words of His representative and to take them to heart.

 

Prabhupada said, "Who you hear from, that is your guru." Krsna will show you who speaks with His voice. Ask Krsna.

 

Hare Krsna

[Kripamoya 0]

Ultimately, there will be some difference in views between the older, distinguished sadhus and acharyas enjoying the vyasasans in the holy dhamas and those exiled, alienated, ostracised and excommunicated Americans who gave the best years of their life to ISKCON just to end up homeless, living on the streets and struggling for decades to even have a roof over their head and some sense of security, after they chose to accept the siksha and service to these sadhus and acharyas.

 

Myself, I have spent many years in bitter struggle.

My life had been very tough, very torturous and very difficult.

 

Stife and struggle is all I have known for the last 30 years.

 

I am not very sensitive to the little pieves and gripes that come from those who have enjoyed Godly service and opulence.

 

Hardship makes one a little callous to the sensitivities of the priveledged leaders.

[Guest guest]

Murlidhara dasa,

 

please accept my obeisances.

 

please try to do your Guru Maharaj justice and be humble when you make a mistake. None of the people who might speak bad about your Guru would be approaching him. You advertised for your Guru. Yet someone was sincerely asking for a Guru like A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and someone recommended your Guru. There could not be a finer compliment in all the three worlds. And you were just 15 minutes before advertising for him!

 

Please try and understand. You are on the verge of being more offensive than the people you were warning against. I am trying to point this out to help you not hurt you.

 

But whether it helps or not is up to you.

 

Hare Krsna

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[Guest guest]

I guess I made a mistake. My mistake was that I should have posted the information about Sripat Bamanpara on the "world news" forum instead of the "spiritual discussions" forum. I had only intended to list the item as a news item, and I was not in fact expecting any comments as such on that page, since it is just a page giving info about Sripat Bamanpara. In regard to my request to Kripamoy not to advocate Srila Govinda Maharaj as a diksa-guru on this forum, the reason I said this is very clearly explained in the posting I made. That is, if you promote a Guru on a forum like this you will in all likelihood draw flak from people who are keen to see their own Guru as "Jagat Guru".

 

If people are interested, I may as well convey to you just exactly what Srila Govinda Maharaj's opinion is about these kinds of discussion boards where you have all kinds of anonymous guests and members with assumed identities such as "shakti fan". Srila Govinda Maharaj told us those sorts of forums should be closed down. Believe it or disbelieve it. That is your choice.

 

Yes I made a mistake coming here. Four days ago I received an email from this server, asking me to log in because someone had sent me a personal message. So I refreshed my password and membership and logged in, and found I had received a message from Puru das. In the past I have not seen eye-to-eye with Puru das on most issues. But the thing he said in his message to me was very interesting. I don't think he will mind me posting it here. (Puru, please excuse me if I shouldn't post this)

 

Puru das:

 

Dear Muralidhar Prabhu,

....

I made a mistake thinking that reasonable dialogue and discussion based on pramana was possible there. Audarya reamains a den of rtvk madness and sadhu ninda association to be avoided.

ys

pda

 

Puru das and I are on exactly the same wave here. I completely agree with him. I should not have posted that article about Bamunpara or made any other comments on this forum. It was a mistake.

[Kripamoya 0]

 

Who says I can't see them? However, what's really the essential point of the purport? I'd suggest this: "Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu indicated that it does not matter whether the spiritual master is a grhastha (householder), a sannyasi or even a sudra. A spiritual master simply must be conversant in the essence of the sastra; he must understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Only then can one become a spiritual master."

Prabhu,

I will show you a good example of what I am saying in this verse.

 

 

TEXT 130

 

 

 

TEXT

 

 

 

ei mata yanra ghare kare prabhu bhiksa

 

sei aiche kahe, tanre karaya ei siksa

 

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

 

 

ei mata--in this way; yanra--of whom; ghare--at the home; kare--does; prabhu--Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; bhiksa--accepting prasada; sei--that man; aiche--similarly; kahe--says; tanre--unto him; karaya--does; ei--this; siksa--enlightenment.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

 

At whosoever's house Sri Caitanya accepted His alms by taking prasada, He would convert the dwellers to His sankirtana movement and advise them just as He advised the brahmana named Kurma.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

 

The cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explained here very nicely. One who surrenders to Him and is ready to follow Him with heart and soul does not need to change his location. Nor is it necessary for one to change status. One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn't matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one's life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, "I am a first-class devotee." Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.

 

There are many sahajiyas who decry the activities of the six Gosvamis--Srila Rupa, Sanatana, Raghunatha dasa, Bhatta Raghunatha, Jiva and Gopala Bhatta Gosvamis--who are the personal associates of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and who enlightened society by writing books on devotional service. Similarly, Narottama dasa Thakura and other great acaryas like Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya and others accepted many thousands of disciples to induce them to render devotional service. However, there is a class of sahajiyas who think that these activities are opposed to the principles of devotional service. Indeed, they consider such activities simply another phase of materialism. Thus opposing the principles of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they commit offenses at His lotus feet. They should better consider His instructions and, instead of seeking to be considered humble and meek, should refrain from criticizing the followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu who engage in preaching. To protect His preachers, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given much clear advice in these verses of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta.

 

In this purport Srila Prabhupada says;

 

we should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, "I am a first-class devotee." Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples.

Becuase to accept the position of guru necessitates one to think that he is a first-class devotee.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that householders should not think of themselves as first class devotee. (Mahaprabhu was teaching the householder Kurma the brahmana). He says this kind of thinking should be avoided.

 

He says:

 

." Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples.

Then he says;

 

One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life.

 

After one is freed from the contamination of material life (family life), then he can become a spiritual master.

 

At least, this is what I take away from this verse and the purport.

 

Bottom line_____________________

 

 

It is best not to accept any disciples.

Just be a siksha guru and preach krishna upadesha (Bhagavad-gita) as Mahaprabhu ordered.

 

yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa

 

amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa

 

("INSTRUCT everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.")

 

 

Mahaprabhu said become preachers and give siksha.

 

Mahaprabhu didn't even give diksha as we think of it in South India.

 

It was all about siksha and spreading the Holy Names around.

[Guest guest]

Dear Murlidhara das.

 

you said.

 

"That is, if you promote a Guru on a forum like this you will in all likelihood draw flak from people who are keen to see their own Guru as "Jagat Guru". "

 

while this is certainly possible, like I said, this has not been largely the case here lately. And to consider that a reason to not share mercy with someone who is qualified and innocent and happens to be here not knowing this forums "so called reputation" is beyond the definition of mercy. Real simple to me.

 

So when your Guru said. "those sorts of forums should be closed down.'

 

I believe he told you that. To keep you away from them so he wouldn't have to hear you complain about them anymore and to prevent you from being somewhere where you were not up to the challenge of defending him. That is my internal siksa realization as an independent soul.

 

And regarding that quote from PURU DAS.

 

"I made a mistake thinking that reasonable dialogue and discussion based on pramana was possible there. Audarya reamains a den of rtvk madness and sadhu ninda association to be avoided.

ys

pda"

 

I find this highly reflective of your own admission of making a mistake. In other words, the mistake you make is not being more wary of the devious association you are so assaulted by. Without any admission on your part that maybe there is a deeper problem with yourself.

 

Puru Das is still sore from a discussion with yours truly. Where he refused to follow, from the getgo, the prime etiquette of a true discussion in the spirit of pramana. When an error of his would be revealed he would simply ignore it. Then divert and change the subject. He was not present to discuss as if there was anything he could gain to learn with and open mind. He had the absolute truth, and that was that. Over time he resorted to absurd contradiction. I chided him abit on it, as he was also condescending although he hid it behind a veneer of Gentlemanlyness. But I smell that stuff a mile away and called him on it. And he uses that to back out dismissing me as an offender. A minor infraction compared to his largess of arrogance.

 

The offense is not backing up what one says with authoritative reference.

 

The offense is entering debate with an inner perception that you are more advanced than you really are. And not accepting when you fail to make your case.

 

So he can claim ritvik madness all he wants. But an impartial observer can read over the latest threads he participated in and find out the real reason why he is not posting here anymore, and claiming sour grapes.

 

I am not perfect and I know it, and that plus my adherence to my Guru's instructions and his causeless mercy and grace is what allows me to defend against his detractors with ease, and recommend him wherever and whenever I please.

 

I love Govinda Maharaja just from looking at his pictures he is a great soul.

 

Please be true to him with all your might.

 

Hare Krsna

[Kripamoya 0]

But please, let me clarify one thing on this topic.

 

I am not connected with or representing Govinda Maharaja in any way shape fashion or form.

 

I have been a loner for MANY years as far being a card-carrying member of any Matha or temple.

 

A devotee asked someone on this thread what he might recommend in terms of finding a guru and I jumped in without sanction or authority and told this innocent person from the bottom of my heart who I thought was a Vaishnava that would satisfy their desire for a very high-grade Vaishnava that one could accept as a spiritual master who would be a lifelong inspiriation.

 

I don't represent anybody or anything except my own views and my own heartfealt opinions.

 

Pardon me for trying to help an innocent soul find a spiritual master that they can love and admire genuinely.

 

Slugs aren't the only living creatures that need compassion.

[stonehearted 0]

 

Just be a siksha guru and preach krishna upadesha (Bhagavad-gita) as Mahaprabhu ordered.

 

yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa

 

amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa

 

("INSTRUCT everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.")

 

Well, that's not what you said before. You wrote that you had clear evidence that Srila Prabhupada wanted only sannyasis to initiate and forbade householders from doing so. All these quotations address are artificially thinking oneself advanced and the material attachment that evidence the artificiality of such thinking. Those householders who have been steady (and more--progressive) in their sadhana and service should naturally become genuinely advanced (which would preclude their thinking they are). If they don't, there's something really wrong. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Of course we should be reluctant to initiate disciples, but instruction, as Srila Prabhupada writes a the beginning of Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita, eventually means initiation. After all, Mahaprabhu's instructions to Sanatana Gosvami begin with accepting a guru and accepting initiation. And Prabhupada made it clear that he expects all his disciples to become so qualified. As one of my godbrothers has sometimes said, "We're not looking for disciples; we're looking for gurus." And I'm addressing a principle here. The details are for those who are involved in these things. As for myself, although I've been approached as a guru on several occasions, I've never agreed to initiate anyone. If they are a little impatient, I help them find shelter at the feet of a suitable vaishnava in whom they can have the kind of faith I wrote about earlier ("I must go there. . . ."). And so far those gurus have mostly been sannyasis, although I have a close friend who lives with his wife and is a suitable guru for some aspiring devotees.

 

I hope things have gotten better for you lately.

[Kulapavana 0]

People who come to our movement nowadays are universally looking for a live representative of Krishna, a senior, experienced and realized sadhu. Just like we all did! They certainly have the right idea.

 

But when they see this mess created around the guru issue by the combined forces of Maya (personified by the bogus "acharyas" taking material advantage of their position, foam-at-the-mouth ritviks proclaiming their "self evident truths", and "my guru is right, your guru is wrong" crowd) these newcomers become confused and often decide to stay on the sidelines...

 

Regardless of who started this mess, you should be careful not to contribute to it. Respect others and you will also be respected. Dont think you have the patent on Truth. Religious fantics are dime a dozen. Have some humility and give credit when credit is due, or even when it is not... Preaching is a big field. There is room for many different devotees and many different approaches. And above all: respect other devotees even when you think you are better than they are. Chances are: you are not better then them. Hare Krishna!

[theist 1]

Mulidhara das,

 

Please accept my prostrated obeisances.

 

you said:

I should not have posted that article about Bamunpara or made any other comments on this forum. It was a mistake.

 

I didn't see that article. I did get an impression from reading this thread. I accept your explanation as to the apparent conflicting statements as being very reasonable.

 

Guru promotion on such a diverse and public forum is never a good idea no matter how well meaning as in this instance with Kripamoya's well intentioned suggestion to guest. I think the tone of your request to him was simply misunderstood and then the whole thing was blown out of proportion.

 

This should not result in you declining to post here however. I have read and appreciated your posts for many years now as I know others have. Many times I have seen how you simply walk away from arguments when you know staying in them will only bring more discord. That has been an example to me that I am only recently able to try and emulate.

 

Please remain with us prabhu and post when it strikes you to.

[Guest guest]

Sorry Theist. You normally have nothing but wisdom behind your words, and I know you are sincere, but in your attempt to appease Murlidhara dasa, instead of allowing him to lick his own wounds and be introspective you said something that does not become you.

 

"Guru promotion on such a diverse and public forum is never a good idea no matter how well meaning"

 

So when someone in a SPIRITUAL discussion forum called Audarya Fellowship requests to know who to turn to as Param Guru, we remain moot?

 

At risk of someone else criticizing?

 

The only options then are to pretend that we are that one. Or to tell them there are no such animals.

 

What kind of fear strikes your heart that you are not willing to share who you

have faith in to be Pure acharya with another?

[Kripamoya 0]

In reply to the statement:

 

 

"Guru promotion on such a diverse and public forum is never a good idea no matter how well meaning"

I would just like to say that I AM not and never HAVE BEEN a disciple or follower of Govinda Maharaja.

 

He is NOT my guru.

 

I already have my guru; diksha and siksha, and Govinda Maharaja is not one of them.

 

So, "guru promotion" had nothing to do with my recommendation that new devotees should at least become acquainted with the fact that Govinda Maharaja is an acharya in the modern day Krishna consciousness movement and might benefit by finding out about him.

 

I am NOT one of the people standing in line for a position at his Matha.

 

Position and prestige is not on my agenda.

 

I pass urine on position and prestige.

[theist 1]

 

Sorry Theist. You normally have nothing but wisdom behind your words, and I know you are sincere, but in your attempt to appease Murlidhara dasa, instead of allowing him to lick his own wounds and be introspective you said something that does not become you.

 

Well I wasn't being diplomatic I was speaking seriously.

 

 

"Guru promotion on such a diverse and public forum is never a good idea no matter how well meaning"

 

So when someone in a SPIRITUAL discussion forum called Audarya Fellowship requests to know who to turn to as Param Guru, we remain moot?

 

I also answered the guests question in my way without trying to point out a specific embodied person. I would love to have you take my previous post and critique it line by line and show me where I made errors. I would not consider that an attack and if I am wrong in suggesting that the person to petitiion for a genuine representative of Krsna is Krsna Himself within our own heart then please show my how that is incorrect. I welcome the conversation because this is an EXTREMELY important point to me.

 

 

At risk of someone else criticizing?

 

No one likes to hear criticism of their beloved teacher. To promote your guru on any open forum will inevitably call out the opposition party and they will criticize. Rather the criticism is warranted or not it will always be painful for the disciple.

 

An example is the present Iskcon model which I am opposed to. But to raise my objection to it I don't need to spend my energy attacking this guy or that guy I can just object to the system. In fact I don't even know the names of those guys nor do I want to. I don't want to get swallowed up in that soap opera.

 

But I also don't want to wound the innocent disciple. If you attack some's teacher they will immediately shut down and not you anyway and just feel the pain and harbor resentment to you. So then I would have caused them pain and left them with lingering resentment in their heart. That would be an act of violence on my part.

 

 

The only options then are to pretend that we are that one. Or to tell them there are no such animals.

 

Wrong sir. The answer is to direct them to take their question of "how do I find a guru" to the Lord in the heart with all sincerity. To ask the Supreme Lord to kindly lead me in my search for His representative on earth is directly answering his question.

 

I look at it like this. Two pure devotees are giving lectures at the same venue on alternating nights. They are even on a speaking tour together as they are fast friends each with his own disciples. Let's say I am a disciple of guru A and you a disciple of guru B. We are talking and some guest approaches us together and asks which one, A or B, he should accept as a disciple. How do we answer him? You may say B and then I may say A because he is a better speaker. But then you say B is stronger in the scriptures. You see how that goes on and the guest will get confused trying to figure it out and leave without having received a clear direction. Most of us in this lifetime will not rise to being more than a vartma-prad???? guru. One who points the way. Now we both feel we have pointed the proper way in response to the guests question. And in fact because both of our gurus are in fact pure devotees we actually have done so. But the result is the guest remains confused as to what to do.

 

Now had we both directed the guest to pray to the Lord in the heart for guidance the guest would have a clear understanding of what needs to be done to find *his* guru on earth. The only reason I believe this is not being done by everyone from all camps is that don't really believe the Lord in the Heart exists. Or that He doesn't exists as a person who hears the prayers of our hearts and will respond. If Krsna wants him to accept guru A or guru B He will lead them in that direction or He may have in mind to lead that person to guru C who neither of us are even aware of.

 

Another point is that by directing guest to the Lord in the heart I AM directing him to guru, Caitya-guru. Caitya-guru will then direct him anywhere He wants him to go to learn more. Afterall we can't hear Caitya-guru so clearly if at all but the point is HE can hear us and is aware of our desires and level of sincerity. He is directing both the sincere and the insincere. So the beginning prayer should be for sincerity in our search. You don't need to be formally initiated before you can ask for the Lords guidance. Anyone can at anytime from any condition of life. Just like anyone can immediately start chanting God's name from any condition without any formality whatsoever and in what ever language they are familar with. Same thing.

 

 

 

What kind of fear strikes your heart that you are not willing to share who you

have faith in to be Pure acharya with another?

 

Fear of hearing my teacher blasphemed and criticized. Of that we should be afraid...very afraid.

 

It also is time & circumstance dependent. On this forum I feel comfortable saying that I am learning the truth of the nature of the Absolute Truth from Srila Prabhupada's works. I also feel anyone can. In fact I feel that is all that is needed. That and help understanding his teaching from those more advanced. I am long done with looking for a guru. I have been shown who are gurun for my life, now I need the intelligence and openness of heart to take advantage of what I have been shown. I am finding that to be the hard part.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

 

You wrote that you had clear evidence that Srila Prabhupada wanted only sannyasis to initiate and forbade householders from doing so.

 

 

Prabhupada was not yet a sannyasi when he accepted Acharya Prabhakar das as his first disciple. So if Prabhupada believed that only sannyasis should initiate, this must have been a rather late development in his thinking

[krsna 3]

 

" ASK, AND YOU WILL BE GIVEN. SEEK, AND YOU WILL FIND. KNOCK AND THE DOOR WILL BE OPENED FOR EVERONE WHO ASKS, RECEIVES. ANYONE, WHO SEEKS, FINDS. IF YOU WILL KNOCK, THE DOOR WILL OPEN":pray:

MATTHEW 7:7,8

[Kripamoya 0]

 

Prabhupada was not yet a sannyasi when he accepted Acharya Prabhakar das as his first disciple. So if Prabhupada believed that only sannyasis should initiate, this must have been a rather late development in his thinking

 

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Srila Prabhupada had not established ISKCON either at that time.

 

After establishing ISKCON and all that he had gone through to build his movement, his final instructions might have nothing to do with anything he did in India before ISKCON.

[Guest guest]

the question was,

 

"should one seek out another Gaudiya Guru to initiate them? I am not a member of ISKCON, what would be the best way for me to personally seek Krsna?"

 

I was trying to follow Theists answer to this question, and went through it step by step, but came out with an answer I wasn't expecting, and that he didn't really seem to be offering. Unless he was just very crafty and knew how to get me there.

 

"We are helpless to know who is guru and who is a pretender. Nor can we rely on the advice of others in such an important matter."

 

I figured you meant advice as in just accepting their recommendation without testing it for myself.

 

"The answer is so simple. Prabhupada told us "By the grace of Krsna one gets guru. By the grace of guru one gets Krsna." The whole thing is explained right in those two sentences."

 

So I need Krsna's grace to get a Guru but the Guru's grace to get Krsna. So how do I get Krsna's grace when I don't know him yet?

 

"The answer to your question is to 1st seek the grace of Krsna. He will then reveal your guru to you."

 

Still, how do I seek Krsna's grace? Looks like I am relying on you now. So I will follow your advice.

 

"In the Gita Krsna tells us that from within the heart of everyone He is directing the wanderings of all conditioned souls. "

 

Well I never noticed him in my heart, and am not sure exactly what that means anyway. So what's next.

 

"He is referred to as the One who has been fullfilling the desires of everyone since time immemorial. If you cultivate a SINCERE desire to hear from His authentic representative Krsna will direct you to him. No doubt about it."

 

Ok, so whatever sincerety I have has lead me directly here, and I know everyone here has a Guru, so I thought it was a good place to get a good recommendation. But so far, I am just getting your instructions and am not sure if you are my Guru, so am I not sincere enough?

 

"Don't trust anyone else's direction. On this board like any other you are likely to get so much advice, "this person is best go there", someone else will say, " No come over this way and you will find the best guru."

 

That is what I was hoping for, but you say not to trust it. So I will keep working with you.

 

"Now someones advice may even be true but if it is then Krsna will tell you so. "

 

Ok this is hard now. So I am looking for a Guru to help me know Krsna. But I won't know if someone's advice is true unless Krnsa tells me. And I don't Know Krsna yet. So I am feeling really spun out now.

 

"Wait AND PRAY for His direction. His voice is always there but it is incombent on us to learn how to hear it."

 

Ok this might help. You say his voice is always here. But I need to learn how to hear it. That must be what a Guru would do then I assume. But since this is new to me, I will keep going with your advice.

 

"How do we get those ears? He will give us the ears to hear Him. Remember in the Gita Arjuna wanted to see a particular manifestation of Krsna. What did he do ? He asked Krsna to please show him that Universal Form. Krsna fullfilled Ajuna's desire by first giving him divine eyes or the ability to perceive Him in that form.

 

The representative of Krsna is another manifestation of Krsna. So we should follow Arjuna in asking Krsna to reveal Himself as He is in the form of Sri Guru."

 

Ok. so to learn and get those kind of ears that will hear him, He will give them to me. But you say that I should follow Arjuna in that I ask him. But I don't know him. So I will have to learn to hear him somehow, or get to know him somehow. Sorry I just don't feel helped yet.

 

Wait a minute. You said that Krsna said things in the Gita. So far that sounds like the closest thing I have. And if the Gita is actually Krsna's own words and instructions, then why don't I just get my answers there. So what the heck do I need some Guru for anyway?

 

I guess you kind of helped, don't mean to be rude, but I think I figured it out on my own. I don't need a guru. So why is everyone else having Guru's? I almost hate to ask since you said this was simple but gave me all kinds of circular paths, but why not. Do you think I got it, and maybe everyone who has a guru is making a mistake?

[Guest guest]

Dear Guest - (I really wish people would identify themselves as something other than guest just to differentiate them form others),

 

Who needs a Guru? One who is serious about advancing in Krsna Bhakti and has the goal of actually meeting Krsna and serving him eternally.

 

If that isn't your goal then you don't need a Guru. If you really want Krsna then you will quite naturally start at the beginning which is to get help from a guide, or Guru.

 

Krsna will reveal who is Guru in his own way to the serious seeker - it is not formulaic. In general, a person would begin by hearing from devotees, reading devotional literatures and becoming familiar with the activities and nature of Guru and disciple. Just as important to a sincere seeker as learning to discriminate with their intelligence based on sastric statements and learning to discriminate with their developing heart as to who is advanced on the path and who isn't is the ability to be honest and introspective enough to ascertain whether they are serious enough and sincere enough to live as a disciple. If you answer is no - then you don't need a Guru and indeed it will be a waste of your time and his/hers if you seek a Guru for anything other than wanting to apply yourself wholeheartedly.

 

You cannot cheat Krsna. You may be able to fool other people and you may be very good at acting, but Krsna knows your true heart and intentions. When you are sincere and are crying out from the core of your heart for his help - he will reveal himself to you in the form of Sri Guru just suited to helping you progress. There is no other method.

[theist 1]

 

the question was,

 

"should one seek out another Gaudiya Guru to initiate them? I am not a member of ISKCON, what would be the best way for me to personally seek Krsna?"

 

I was trying to follow Theists answer to this question, and went through it step by step, but came out with an answer I wasn't expecting, and that he didn't really seem to be offering. Unless he was just very crafty and knew how to get me there.

 

 

 

Well yes it must be tested and realized within ones self. But that test is not just an intellectual one. The testing means receiving Krsna's personal confirmation from within the heart. I am not speaking of an emotional feeling type response like. "Oh I always get goose bumps when he speaks so that must mean Krsna is confirming that he is my guru." Not that emotional subtle body level of confirmation. :-) I mean we must receive confirmation from the Lord in the heart. Even though we are so fallen that we are not in tune with the lord's voice still by His grace he can give us the ability to hear Him and understand His direction.

 

 

 

 

 

He knows you. A young lamb has fallen in a well. A man passing by hears his cries for help from within the well. The man helps him out. It was not dependent on the lamb knowing the man. The man knows the lamb. The man happens to be the owner of the farm and the lamb is his own.

 

 

 

That much advice you can accept from anyone. But what if I advise you to petiton a religious commitee somewhere to hand pick one or a group of various gurus for you to choose from? Will you rely upon me then? Rely on Krsna directly at all times and places, from the beginning of your search for Godhead and once found throughout all eternity. That is the only safe position.

 

I look upon this issue a little differently that most. I consider finding my guru to be a process just like initiation. I am in the process of finding guru. Even if I have been formally initiated and received a name change and dress differently etc. the process continues. I must be purged of doubts, false pride and rebelliousness towards Krsna and His servants before I really can have established an eternal connection.

 

There subtle degrees of studenthood and discipleship.

 

 

 

Nothing is next. This is not a step that can be by-passed. First why seek a guru to help you find God if you don't believe in God in the first place? God means controller. God means He is everywhere present.

 

 

 

Yes everyone has Guru but only the very rare soul knows Him. The Lord in the heart is called Caitya-guru. He is the one and only guru in the sense that all knowledge ultimately comes from Him. But that means material as well as spiritual knowledge as well as a lack of knowledge in any one sphere. What He gives He can take away at anytime. So we are totally dependent on the Lord in all circumstances especially in finding guru for us on this earth.

 

Sincerity for help is all we can really do. Like the lamb in the well. We can cry out for help but that's it. The lamb cried out loudly and continually in earnest because it knew it was in a hopeless situation. We are just like that lamb and the more we realize it the more sincere we will become in our supplications to the Lord.

 

Sincere enough for what? If you are somewhat sincere but have many other desires and you may end up associating with what turns out to be an authentic lover of Krsna. That will have untold benefits for you. But if you hang on to those other desires refusing to surrender them you will not be able to hear your guru properly. Without hearing your guru properly you will not get the benefits that come to a true disciple. So sincerity of purpose is always needed and not just at the first stage.

 

 

 

Great. I can always use some company as I struggle to gain some sincerity myself.

 

 

 

It's good to realize we are spun out. Now who do you to turn to gain proper balance? Krsna within your own heart. He will restore our balance. We have forgotten krsna but He has not forgotten us. We are like children born deaf dumb and blind. Helpless. But we have a loving Father that will shelter and see to our care. He may arrange for a doctor and nursing staff to care for us. We cannot acquire the doctor on our own but the Father can send the most competent of doctors to aid us. All I am saying is we need to rely on His making the arrangements.

 

 

 

Yes guru teaches the disciple how to connect with the Lord and to become totally conscious of Him in all circumstances. This is called Krsna consciousness. It's a process that involves our going through internal changes, even a metamorphysis...transformation. We want the Lord Himself to guide us every step of the way. It is a necessity. There is no other viable option.

 

"By the grace of Krsna one gets guru. By the grace of guru one gets Krsna."

We need to burn this into our awareness. Krsna's grace first. How do we get that? "You receive not because you ask not." So we must ask Krsna for His grace and to lead us to His genuine representative.

 

Even if we are on a planet in hell where there are no pure servants of Krsna if we are sincere krsna will send someone to us or take us to a planet where there is such a devotee. It is unthinkable that Krsna would ignore a sincere prayer like this. He will connect us up.

 

 

 

We don't know Him but He knows us. We can't hear Him but He hears us. You are a lamb in a well. Just cry out.

 

You don't feel helped yet. I know that feeling. Everyday I feel I have not been helped enough. But if I analyze why, I see it is because I have not applied the advice I have been given. This is a gradual process. One that should not rushed just to fit in.

 

Again finding a genuine guru is not like finding a can on the side of the road. look how hard the materialists work to find diamonds. Diamonds are just like plastic and glass trinkets compared to what you want to find. You will have to apply yourself to seeking Krsna's voice with all earnest through chanting His name, prayer etc.

 

 

 

Of course the Guru is the one that gave us the Gita in the first place. So if you accept Gita then you are already that much in debt to the one who worked to bring it to you.

 

No one is an island. No one is really self-taught. If Brahma had not deciminated these teaching throughout the universe and if other devotees had not carried it we wouldn't be having this conversation today.

 

Here is another way of looking at it. We now have Krsna's words and we have His devotees explanation of what those words mean. So within the Bhagavad-Gita we already have both God and guru. So this is an excellent place to really begin. Now how do we approach Them in the Gita? First thing is to receive Krsna's grace to understand the words of guru. Then we will experience the grace of guru in his teaching on how to find Krsna.

 

Don't see the Bhagavad-gita As It Is as being Krsna alone. Krsna is never alone. He is always accompanied by His devotees. See guru in commentaries. That is the Living Presence of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Krsna will bring many gurus into our life in a myraid of different forms. Once we learn how to hear Him we will find that the whole enviroment around us is revealing Him in some way or directing us towards Him

 

 

 

You are not rude just wrong. There is no question that we all need guru. When Krsna is teaching you from within that is Caitya-guru. God as guru. When the Lord within teaches us through His perfect servant that is also that is also God as guru.

 

The mistake is thinking guru is acting separately from Krsna. There is no one without the other

 

No you don't have it.

 

Too much thinking now for me. I leave you with the initial recommendation. Which by the way is the same one I am working on myself. I seem to stuck on not being able to humble myself before the Lord and beg for His grace. But that is what practice is for. Can't have a number two without a number one.

 

"Lord Krsna please grace me so that I may know and hear from your pure devotee."

[Guest guest]

Theist writes

 

"Here is another way of looking at it. We now have Krsna's words and we have His devotees explanation of what those words mean. So within the Bhagavad-Gita we already have both God and guru. "

 

I like the Gita then.

 

"So this is an excellent place to really begin. Now how do we approach Them in the Gita? "

 

Good question.

 

"First thing is to receive Krsna's grace to understand the words of guru. Then we will experience the grace of guru in his teaching on how to find Krsna."

 

I believe Krnsa's grace is commensurate with my sincerety. Might be a chicken & the egg sort of deal as to "which comes first".

 

"Don't see the Bhagavad-gita As It Is as being Krsna alone. Krsna is never alone. He is always accompanied by His devotees. See guru in commentaries. That is the Living Presence of Srila Prabhupada."

 

Now THAT is the answer we have all been waiting for.

 

The essence.

 

Hari Bol

[Bhava dasa 0]

 

So now all of Prabhupada's disciples have the order and wishes of their spiritual master to become guru. No need to check in with the GBC for final authorization, no need to canvass for disciples, just be scrupulously following his teachings it all arises naturally.

When a new person comes to the temple, he (or she) doesn't have enough experience or realization to know who is qualified and who is not. Consequently, the kanistha may become misguided by sentiment to prematurely surrender to someone not qualified.

 

The GBC have the responsibility to protect the neophyte devotees [sadhakas] from this, and they are doing their best.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

"The GBC have the responsibility to protect the neophyte devotees [sadhakas] from this, and they are doing their best."

 

I believe their best would be displayed by following Srila Prabupada's instructions exactly.

 

They began speculating as soon as he "left the planet" according to their mundane vision.

 

This is evident by the fruits of changing systems of initiation and "Guru approval" like one changes clothes.

 

When we begin to solve an equation with a mistaken calculation, it is not possible to come out with the right answer. EVER. We must go back to the beginning to see where we made the first mistake.

 

Until the GBC shows some REAL faith in Srila Prabhupada, and humbly allow themselves to conceive that he MUST HAVE made it clear what to do, and that it is their own deficit that caused them to mis-interpret his instructions, they will continue to spiral down the path of speculation that has led to issuing hundreds of bureaucratic resolutions which need to be approved by LAWYERS before becoming the guidelines for devotees in Iskcon.

 

If this isn't a sign to give them pause, I cannot imagine how much worse things need to get.

[Guest guest]

Theist already pointed out very early in this thread that Srila Prabhupada's words neither support an ecclesiastical arrangement of rubber stamping Gurus nor the ritvik misconception - so don't twist his words in that regard.

 

Due to the fact that conditioned souls can't hear well what the caitya guru is saying - Krsna comes before them in person in the form of Sri Guru. It is a fact that the pure devotee is present in his/her commentaries, but our ability to understand and put those words into practice in our own lives is still hampered by our own low position. That is why Krsna agrees to be present before us as Sri Guru so that he can challenge us, correct us, encourage us, enlighten us, clarify things so that our fuzzy understandings become clear, etc. Without that we are left with our own minds and our own interpretations which are clouded by our conditioning.

 

Hearing the dictates of caitya guru will depend on our sincerity and purity.

 

The S.B. clearly tells us of two Bhagavatas - the book and the person - they are one, but different. They both point to each other. We cannot ignore the person Bhagavata or the instructions of the book Bhagavata in regard to the person Bhagavata and expect mercy - just as Krsnadasa Kaviraja's brother was rejected due to his accepting Lord Chaitanya and his rejecting Lord Nityananda we can be assured that by rejecting the pure devotees we will be rejected and our reading of books will have no tangible effect. That is why we should all pray sincerely to gain the shelter of advanced vaishnavas.

[Guest guest]

Dear Audarya-Lila,

 

If Theist says,

 

"Don't see the Bhagavad-gita As It Is as being Krsna alone. Krsna is never alone. He is always accompanied by His devotees. See guru in commentaries. That is the Living Presence of Srila Prabhupada."

 

Doesn't this imply that the Person Bhagavata is present within the Book Bhagavata. Or perhaps that the Book Bhagavata is just an extension or an expresssion of the Person(s) Bhagavata?

 

So how exactly is taking the association of the Person Bhagavata through the Book Bhagavata rejecting association of pure devotees?

[Bhava dasa 0]

 

Until the GBC shows some REAL faith in Srila Prabhupada

Do you mind giving your definition of “Real faith”? Do you mean nistha?