Without our books, our preaching will have no effect.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Here at Mayapur my Guru Maharaja was printing one paper. It was selling for only a few paise. Sometimes whenever one brahmacari would go to Navadvipa and sell even a few copies, I would see my Guru Maharaja become very much pleased. Even if the brahmacari was not a very important member, my Guru Maharaja would become very, very pleased with him. He personally instructed me that books are more important than big temples. At Radha Kund he told me that since constructing the big marble temple at Bhag Bazaar, there have been so many difficulties. Our men are envious over who will live in each room. I think it would be better to take off all the marble and print books. He told me this personally. So I am always emphasizing book distribution. It is the better kirtana. It is better than chanting. Of course chanting should not stop, but book distribution is the best (to Srutadev 24 Oct, 1974)

 

The books are better than the so-called chanting parties.

The books are BETTER than YOUR chanting.......

That is the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

Srimad Bhagavatam preface;

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam begins with the definition of the ultimate source. It is a bona fide commentary on the Vedanta-sutra by the same author, Srila Vyasadeva, and gradually it develops into nine cantos up to the highest state of God realization. The only qualification one needs to study this great book of transcendental knowledge is to proceed step by step cautiously and not jump forward haphazardly like with an ordinary book. It should be gone through chapter by chapter, one after another. The reading matter is so arranged with its original Sanskrit text, its English transliteration, synonyms, translation and purports so that one is sure to become a God-realized soul at the end of finishing the first nine cantos.

[Guest guest]

No No No,

 

You must have been reading that preface from an edited version of the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

The ORIGINAL VERSION must have read

 

............The reading matter is so arranged with its original Sanskrit text, its English transliteration, synonyms, translation and purports so that one is sure to become a God-realized soul at the end of finishing the first nine cantos {WITH A PURE DEVOTEE OTHER THAN MYSELF EXPLAINING TO YOU WHAT ALL MY PURPORTS MEAN}

 

Didn't you understand? Srila Prabhupada's explanations lose their potency to be understood by English speaking westerners as soon as he DIES.

 

Time to find a new Guru Maharaj. And have I got one for you!

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada Preface Srimad Bhagavatam

 

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam is the transcendental science not only for knowing the ultimate source of everything but also for knowing our relation with Him and our duty toward perfection of the human society on the basis of this perfect knowledge. It is powerful reading matter in the Sanskrit language, and it is now rendered into English elaborately so that simply by a careful reading one will know God perfectly well, so much so that the reader will be sufficiently educated to defend himself from the onslaught of atheists. Over and above this, the reader will be able to convert others to accepting God as a concrete principle.

[Puru_Das 0]

<CENTER>108

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>Srila Prabhupada Quotes

 

 

</CENTER><CENTER>On the Importance of Having the Association of Pure Devotees

 

</CENTER>http://bvml.org/contemporary/108spq.htm

 

 

Nityananda dasa: Why is it that many kanistha-bhaktas do not progress?

Babaji: If the kanistha-bhakta associates mainly with people who are inimical, his immature level of eligibility for bhakti quickly fades, and his eligibility for karma and jnana becomes prominent. In some cases, eligibility neither increases nor decreases, but remains exactly the same.

Nityananda dasa: When does that happen?

Babaji: When he associates equally with bhaktas and inimical people.

Nityananda dasa: Under what circumstances can his advancement be assured?

Babaji: When his association with bhaktas becomes prominent and his association with the inimical becomes minimal, his advancement is rapid.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Chapter 8 Jaiva Dharma

 

TEXT 71

TEXT

rati-prema-taratamye bhakta----tara-tama

ekadasa skandhe tara kariyache laksana

SYNONYMS

rati--of attachment; prema--and love; taratamye--by comparison; bhakta--devotee; tara-tama--superior and superlative; ekadasa skandhe--in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam; tara--of him; kariyache--has made; laksana--symptoms.

TRANSLATION

"A devotee is considered superlative and superior according to his attachment and love. In the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the following symptoms have been ascertained.

PURPORT

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has stated that if one has developed faith in Krsna consciousness, he is to be considered an eligible candidate for further advancement in Krsna consciousness. Those who have faith are divided into three categories-uttama, madhyama and kanistha (first-class, second-class and neophyte). A first-class devotee has firm conviction in the revealed scriptures and is expert in arguing according to the sastras. He is firmly convinced of the science of Krsna consciousness. The madhyama-adhikari, or second-class devotee, has firm conviction in Krsna consciousness, but he cannot support his conviction by citing sastric references. The neophyte devotee does not yet have firm faith. In this way the devotees are typed.

The standard of devotion is also categorized in the same way. A neophyte believes that only love of Krsna or Krsna consciousness is very good, but he may not know the basis of pure Krsna consciousness or how one can become a perfect devotee. Sometimes in the heart of a neophyte there is attraction for karma, jnana or yoga. When he is free and transcendental to mixed devotional activity, he becomes a second-class devotee. When he becomes expert in logic and can refer to the sastras, he becomes a first-class devotee. The devotees are also described as positive, comparative and superlative, in terms of their love and attachment for Krsna.

It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikari, a second-class devotee, is fully convinced of Krsna consciousness but cannot support his convictions with sastric reference. A neophyte may fall down by associating with nondevotees because he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress. There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with nondevotees to preach. Conviction and faith gradually increase to make one an uttama-adhikari, a first-class devotee.

 

Cc. Madhya lila 22.71

HDGACBSP

 

[Guest guest]

Nobody is arguing that association with Vaishnavas is not an important element of devotional progress.

 

We just don't buy the argument that Narayana Maharaja is the only sadhu sanga on the planet.

 

Srila Prabhupada created many wonderful devotees and sadhus.

 

Followers of Narayana Maharaja don't have any monopoly.

[Guest guest]

 

The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress.

 

So, why do you relentlessly interpet this to mean physical association?

 

One can associate with the first class devotee by taking his instructions, the vani.

 

Association is really with the vani, the instructions.

 

Associating with the body of the first class devotee is not the most important kind of association.

 

Most import is to associate with his instructions and follow them.

 

Being around the physical body of the first class devotee performs no magic.

 

The magic is in following his instructions.

[Puru_Das 0]

 

Nobody is arguing that association with Vaishnavas is not an important element of devotional progress.

 

We just don't buy the argument that Narayana Maharaja is the only sadhu sanga on the planet.

 

Srila Prabhupada created many wonderful devotees and sadhus.

 

Followers of Narayana Maharaja don't have any monopoly.

 

Someone is certainly trying to argue that association with Vaisnavsa is not an important element of devotional progress. Kindly don't try to manipulate the discussion of that siddhanta like you did on the other thread by introducing your offensive attitude toward Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj.

 

On the earlier thread and on this one no one has discussed any particular sadhu, only the principle. No one posted any claim that Srila Narayana Maharaja is the only sadhu sanga on the planet. That he is capable of offering genuine sadhu-sanga is indisputable and not the topic under discussion. If you think we are going to tolerate you putting words in our mouth and making issues out of non issues on this thread as you did the last time then you are sorely mistaken.

 

On the earlier thread theist made the claim that all the "followers of Srila Narayana Maharaja" are supposedly posting here to "canvass" and we are telling everyone that SBVNM is the "only way", and that everyone must come hear from him. What a bhogus argument. Obviously you have some preconceived notions about Srila Narayana Maharaja and his followers.You have some paranoid idea that our sole purpose on these forums is to canvass here for his sanga and you are sorely mistaken. The internet and these contentious forums have little or nothing to do with sincere souls approaching any sad guru for shelter, mercy and guidance.

 

The followers of SBVNM are also not responsible for the offenses to senior Vaisnavsa being created on any thread,because we want to see Gaudiya siddhanta discussed free from speculation, and rtvk misconceptions

 

Srila Prabhupada has written very clearly in his 5th purport to Sri Upadesamrta, The Nectar or Instruction:

 

". . . In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.

 

NOI purport Verse 5

HDGACBSP

 

No problem for anyone to take whatever association inspires him and compare the level of adhikara and realization found in Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja's translations of Gaudiya literature

http://bvml.org/SBNM/books/index.html

with anything and everything that has come from any of the devotees in iskcon, post 1977.

[Puru_Das 0]

 

So, why do you relentlessly interpet this to mean physical association?

 

One can associate with the first class devotee by taking his instructions, the vani.

 

Association is really with the vani, the instructions.

 

Associating with the body of the first class devotee is not the most important kind of association.

 

Most import is to associate with his instructions and follow them.

 

Being around the physical body of the first class devotee performs no magic.

 

The magic is in following his instructions.

 

Why do you relentlessly try to minimize vapuh association when it is clearly indicated in so many places in His Divine Grace''s books,lectures and in his example. You can attempt to re-write the meaning of the English language with the rtvk dictionary, but anyone who reads Srila Prabhupada's books with perception understands, what Krsna means in Bg. 4.34. when he say to approach a bona fide spiritual master, what association means, , what take shelter of means, what to take initiation from means, etc.

 

Here is the paradox for you. The vanih says very succinctly over and over again to embrace that vapuh association whenever possible and hear SB from their lotus lips. Because you simply refuse to do that you can't understand the principle because you simply haven't heard about it from the lips of ANY sadhu, but have only read about it in theory and won't even accept that point theoretically. The bbt editors like to re write the books, and you like to re define the English language they are printed in. There is no way to explain it to you because understanding it depends on mercy and not jnana. When Srila Prabhupada says it directly you insist on interpreting the qualitative oneness of vanih and vapuh to distort his clear meaning.

 

Do I have to re post Cc Antya lila 5.131, and SB 1.2.18.

[Puru_Das 0]

It's about time that the various anonymous guests identify themselves and the other nom du pluma's stop hiding behind their pen names, and come forward. Why should we continue any discussion of Krsna consciousness with individuals who refuse to take responsibility for what they post by staying anonymous. Why Jndas allows anyone to participate on these forums without registering and giving his email and actual identity is beyond me.

 

Even on the bbt.com.se undernet, which was a tool for Harikesa's domination of European iskcon book publication, all the participants in their public forums were clearly identified. The mistake there was that everyone had to place the initials of his diksa guru after his name, and a false distinction was made between disciples and grand disciples and godbrothers who were accepting disciples and those who were not. The principle of das,anudas and siksa was clouded by over emphasizing our line to be a diksa succession. There was little appreciation of the way SBSST resolved the pancaratrika guru parampara and the Bhagavata parampara. Rktambara, the moderator simply couldn't appreciate that point and wouldn't allow anyone to post without those initials because Harikesa and the iskcon gbc had told him what to think. I am not suggesting we make the same mistake here but on this forum no one can know who is who, who they are trying to dialogue with,and what devotional experience anyone has or has not.

[Das Anu das 0]

Dear Puru Das,

 

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.

 

Truly, there is no better way to know someone than by what they say when stating their position on an issue.

 

I would like to know what knowing someone's name or nominal devotional rank would do for you when faced with the truth or lack thereof regarding their stated positions.

 

Not all who wander are lost.

 

Not all who post "anonymously" are ill-intended.

 

And thus their true identity shows through.

 

Hare Krsna

[Puru_Das 0]

 

Dear Puru Das,

 

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.

 

Truly, there is no better way to know someone than by what they say when stating their position on an issue.

 

I would like to know what knowing someone's name or nominal devotional rank would do for you when faced with the truth or lack thereof regarding their stated positions.

 

Not all who wander are lost.

 

Not all who post "anonymously" are ill-intended.

 

And thus their true identity shows through.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Dear Das anudas,

Greetings and pranams. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga

True enough that anyone's identity shows through his words to some extent, but it is simply a matter of honesty, and being straightforward. In any other style of public "debate" concerning religion and politics are not the particpants identifed and their affiliations understood? And it is not any matter of "ranking." Krsna says all living beings are His parts and parcels. Every soul is equal in Krsna's eyes, but everyone's experience is not identical. Spiritual discussions are supposed to be based on guru,sadhu and shastra.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written:

 

"A diseased person must be under the care of a physician because he cannot cure himself. Just as one should pardon the anger of a diseased person, so one should also excuse the improper behavior of the ignorant. This attitude is known as mercy. The ignorant have many misconceptions, such as faith in karma-kanda, occasional inclination towards jnana, worshiping the Deity with ulterior motives, faith in yoga, indifference towards the association of pure Vaisnavas, attachment to varnasrama, and many other things. However, the kanistha-adhikari can quickly become a madhyamaadhikari when these misconceptions are dispelled by good association, mercy, and good instructions. . .

 

The madhyama Vaisnava’s fourth characteristic is neglect towards those who are inimical. Here we must define enmity and describe its different types. Dvesa, enmity, is a particular attitude which is also known as matsarata, envy, and which is exactly the opposite of love. Isvara is the only object of love, and dvesa is the attitude that is directly opposite to love for Him. There are five different types of dvesa: absence of faith in Isvara; the belief that Isvara is nothing more than a natural potency that brings about the results of all action; the belief that Isvara has no particular form; the belief that the jivas are not eternally subordinate to Isvara; and the absence of mercy.

Individuals whose hearts are contaminated by these inimical attitudes are absolutely bereft of suddha-bhakti. They do not even have prakrta-bhakti, the rudimentary devotion that is the doorway to suddha-bhakti, and which is represented by the neophyte bhakta’s worship of the Deity. The five types of enmity are found to coexist with attachment to material sense enjoyment. Sometimes the third and fourth types of enmity lead to such an extreme form of asceticism or aversion towards the world that it culminates in self-annihilation. This is seen in the lives of the Mayavada sannyasis. How should suddha-bhaktas behave towards such inimical people? It is their duty to avoid them.

The word upeksa, neglect, does not imply that one should abandon all social dealings that are normal between human beings. Nor does it mean that one should fail to alleviate an inimical person’s difficulty or deprivation if he falls into distress. Grhastha Vaisnavas remain within society, so they have many types of relationships, for instance, with relatives through marriage, and with others through business dealings, through the maintenance of property and bringing up of animals, through endeavoring to mitigate the suffering and ailments of others, and through their position as citizens of the state. These different social relations entail connection with inimical people, and avoidance does not mean that one should at once give them up. One is obliged to conduct routine affairs and interact with people who are indifferent to Isvara, butone should not take their association when it comes to spiritual matters.

Some members of one’s own family may acquire a malicious nature as a result of their sinful activities from a previous life. Should one abandon such people? Certainly not. One should deal with them without attachment insofar as ordinary affairs are concerned, but one should not associate with them for spiritual matters. Upeksa should be applied in this regard. Spiritual association means to meet together for the purpose of spiritual advancement, to discuss topics of eternal truth, and to render reciprocal service and welfare that awakens one’s devotional sentiments. Upeksa means avoiding the association of people with whom such types of exchange are not possible.

When an inimical person who has adopted discordant or inconsistent opinions hears glorification of suddha-bhakti or virtuous instructions regarding bhakti, he will immediately retort with some futile argument which is not beneficial for you or for him. One should avoid such fruitless arguments, and interact with such people only as far as necessary in routine social dealings. One may think that one should include inimical people among the ignorant, and therefore bestow mercy upon them, but if one does so, one will not help them and will only harm oneself. One should be benevolent, but with caution. . . "

 

Seems to me that too much aparadha creeps into these discussions.

Seems to me we would all be better off to try and become more swan life, as SBT recommends in his essay Non Sectarian Vaisnava Dharma.

Since we are conditioned souls we see external differences , when in the higher realms of behavior any apparant inconsistancies are easily resolved and harmonized by the transcendental atmosphere.

 

 

[JLdd 0]

Hare Krsna,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Please, by all means, take SP instructions into your heart and follow them fully. He is siksa guru for the entire KC movement all over the universe.

 

 

But do not minimize the parampara. It is by them that the karma of our past lives is removed and we make more rapid advancement. SP has given classes on the meaning of initiation. They are as good as his books, so listen to the importance of having that relationship. How much will it take for you to burn off your karma? Out of his kindness, guru takes if from you and lets you start without the baggage of burning it away. This is a VERY important point.

 

Initiation is more than a formality. You and your guru make an eternal commitment to one another. He removes your karma and links your service to Krsna in the parampara. You serve offer service in a mood of submission. Do you think he will not let you have some other siska guru? Try being personal and asking him. Or, perhaps if you are a great soul, you can be a pure devotee just by reading the SB from one end to another. Can you do it? Have you done it, and are you pure now? It takes the right attitude of surrender, not just reading the words. SP said we could be pure in one second, but how many of us actually have the desire to do it? Not me, I need all the help I can get, and I suspect that most of us do. So why reject it? You can take the stairs, or the elevator. The elevator gets you faster.

[Das Anu das 0]

Dear Puru Das,

 

please accept my obeisances.

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

you said.

 

"True enough that anyone's identity shows through his words to some extent, but it is simply a matter of honesty, and being straightforward."

 

A person't identity is not their name.

 

A person is truly identified by their actions and position regarding a Bonafide Vaisnava Acharya of Some Sampradaya. That is the Full extent to which one can be identified in the true sense of the word therefore.

 

Remaining anonymous in terms of one's name is not a matter of dishonesty, because there was no lie committed. This forum does not require a person reveal their name. Thus no dishonesty. And I am being straightforward with you right now. And you do not know my birth name.

 

You can refer to me as Das Anu Das, and I will respond to you in the same way as if you called me my birth name. It matters not.

 

You said,

 

In any other style of public "debate" concerning religion and politics are not the particpants identifed and their affiliations understood? And it is not any matter of "ranking." Krsna says all living beings are His parts and parcels. Every soul is equal in Krsna's eyes, but everyone's experience is not identical. Spiritual discussions are supposed to be based on guru,sadhu and shastra.

 

I do not know of the other "styles" of public debate concerning religion an politics, because I stick to speaking of issues of Sanatana Dharma as promulgated by the Gaudiya Sampradaya Acharya HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. That is my affiliation, and anyone who reads what I say can identify it as such. And as far as comparing etiquette for a true spiritual discussion to mundane debates on religion and politics...

 

"Devotees always humbly offer respect to everyone, but when there is a discussion on a point of sastras (scripture), they do not observe the usual etiquette, satyam bruyat priyam bruyat. They speak only the satyam (truth), although it may not necessarily be priyam (following norms of etiquette)."

(Srila Prabhupada Letter, August 7th,1976)

 

But I offer you a degree of respect anyway, because you have not indicated you deserve less.

 

You then quoted an extensive analysis of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur regarding the guidelines for a Madhyama Adhikari in dealing with the inimical.

 

I seek to attain such a platform of behavior, and as I purify, may it be so.

 

You then said.

 

"Seems to me that too much aparadha creeps into these discussions.

Seems to me we would all be better off to try and become more swan life, as SBT recommends in his essay Non Sectarian Vaisnava Dharma.

Since we are conditioned souls we see external differences , when in the higher realms of behavior any apparant inconsistancies are easily resolved and harmonized by the transcendental atmosphere."

 

So we try. Meanwhile, we commit small offenses. We become emotional in presenting our positions. May he who has not sinned throw the first stone.

 

I have seen too many people duck out of a substantial debate claiming to be offended by a person who showed a little swagger, when this did not at all minimize the substance of their superior stance. It is simply a tuck and run technique.

 

The purifying fire is to accept these slights when made against oneself, and try to bring the debate back on point. The ad-hominem nature of such a slight does not prove victory, so why should it dissuade someone from continuing. Unless that is all the person is doing. Then it is not a debate, it is a waste of time.

 

Much of the "debate" I see on this forum and so many others is more accurately characterized as people who have some small sectarian stance in regards to their authority, who have some small fanaticism, but will not acknowlege it.

 

Thus they engage in no discussion. Their minds are already made up, and they use cherry picked quotes from Scritpure or their authority figure of choice in an attempt to bludgeon one another into seeing their way.

 

This amounts to a circus in the name of debate. It is not always the case, but certainly the holier than thou, my stool doesn't stink is THE prominent mood whenever an issue of controversy is brought up.

 

So while conceptually, in "higher realms of behavior" inconsitencies are harmonized etc., perhapst we could all be a little more honest about recognizing what realm we are ACTUALLY behaving from, and we might be a little more tolerant of others, and THEN we will see some purification and harmonization.

 

Thanks for inspiring me to expound on something I feel important.

 

My intention was not to minimize what in ordinary situations would be good points made by your self, but in this case, please consider that many anonymous posters here are actually highly qualified Vaisnavas wading into a sectarian battle ground, not to associate with the inimical, but to sneak under the radar and point out their inconsistencies for the benefit of the innocent who wander to a discussion board looking for spiritual nourishment and thus very vulnerable to a well-polished presentation with a rotten core.

 

your servant of the servants,

 

Das Anu Das

 

 

 

[Puru_Das 0]

Dear Das anudas,

Thank you for your observations. You made some very valid points. particularly:

 

 

 

The purifying fire is to accept these slights when made against oneself, and try to bring the debate back on point. The ad-hominem nature of such a slight does not prove victory, so why should it dissuade someone from continuing. Unless that is all the person is doing. Then it is not a debate, it is a waste of time.

Much of the "debate" I see on this forum and so many others is more accurately characterized as people who have some small sectarian stance in regards to their authority, who have some small fanaticism, but will not acknowlege it.

 

Thus they engage in no discussion. Their minds are already made up, and they use cherry picked quotes from Scritpure or their authority figure of choice in an attempt to bludgeon one another into seeing their way.

 

This amounts to a circus in the name of debate. It is not always the case, but certainly the holier than thou, my stool doesn't stink is THE prominent mood whenever an issue of controversy is brought up.

 

 

As you pointed out there may be posters who stay anonymous with no ill intent in mind. Indeed there may be others that stay anonymous simply to generate contention and make mischief.

 

Remaining anonymous on these forums is all too often a way to hide behind a keyboard, and not be honest enough to take responsibility for what you post. Like wearing a mask. Say anything, do anything and no one knows who you are. Freedom to commit cyber aparadha with the only consequence your continuance in the cycle of samsara.

 

However you cannot hide from Supersoul and He knows everyone's isp.

 

Our true identity and vastu siddhi has little or nothing to do with our conditioned state.

 

TEXT 4

TEXT

anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau

samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-sriyam

harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah

sada hrdaya-kandare sphuratu vah saci-nandanah

SYNONYMS

anarpita--not bestowed; carim--having been formerly; cirat--for a long time; karunaya--by causeless mercy; avatirnah--descended; kalau--in the Age of Kali; samarpayitum--to bestow; unnata--elevated; ujjvala-rasam--the conjugal mellow; sva-bhakti--of His own service; sriyam--the treasure; harih--the Supreme Lord; purata--than gold; sundara--more beautiful; dyuti--of splendor; kadamba--with a multitude; sandipitah--lighted up; sada--always; hrdaya-kandare--in the cavity of the heart; sphuratu--let Him be manifest; vah--your; saci-nandanah--the son of mother Saci.

TRANSLATION

May that Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Sacidevi be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant spiritual knowledge of the mellow taste of His service.

Cc. Adi 1.4

HDGACBSP

 

I also appreciated the quote you offered earlier:

"Devotees always humbly offer respect to everyone, but when there is a discussion on a point of sastras (scripture), they do not observe the usual etiquette, satyam bruyat priyam bruyat. They speak only the satyam (truth), although it may not necessarily be priyam (following norms of etiquette)."

(Srila Prabhupada Letter, August 7th,1976)

 

and can offer you this one as well from Bg. As It Is:Ch. 10, purport to Verses 4-5

 

". . . Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth. "

[Nrsinghadev 0]

Hare Krishna,

 

in the following verse of the Bhagavad-Gita, Krishna stresses that one should submit, inquire from, and render service to, the bonafide spiritual master and Prabhupada stresses the importance of this truth in his purport to the verse.

How will you be able to do these things without the physical presence of the spiritual master?

Is your surrender to the non-physically-present guru real, or is it pretense? It's all too easy to cheat yourself by telling yourself you have surrendered, while in actuality you have simply pretended.

How will you inquire from the guru who is not physically-present? You may send your queries into the sky but who will establish that if somehow an answer comes that it isn't concocted by your own mind?

Inquiring from physically-present guru negates this possiblity entirely.

You can render service to the non-physically-present guru though.

Doing puja and glorifying the spiritual master through prayers and songs, and distributing and studying his books is rendering service. However physical service is impossible, again you can wave him cool air in your mind, which is good, but it's not as strong as doing it physically, because by physical association with the spiritual master you will not only be able to please sri guru by direct physical service, gain the immense benefit of being in the physical proximity of a bonafide sadhu, allow him to instruct you on a personal basis by submitting queries, learn to become humble and learn proper behaviour by rendering service, but more importantly your false ego will be destroyed by doing so. So simply put: One who deems it unnecessary to surrender to a physically-present spiritual master is simply cheating himself. So Krishna and Prabhupada instruct us to submit to a physically-present spiritual master:

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 4.34 "tad viddhi praṇipātena

paripraśnena sevayā

upadekṣyanti te jñānaḿ

jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

 

SYNONYMS

tat — that knowledge of different sacrifices; viddhi — try to understand; praṇipātena — by approaching a spiritual master; paripraśnena — by submissive inquiries; sevayā — by the rendering of service; upadekṣyanti — they will initiate; te — you; jñānam — into knowledge; jñāninaḥ — the self-realized; tattva — of the truth; darśinaḥ — seers.

 

TRANSLATION

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

 

PURPORT

The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhāgavatam (6.3.19) says, dharmaḿ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam: the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help lead one to the right path. Nor by independent study of books of knowledge can one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. Not only should one hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect.

And from an article posted on VNN:

Srila Prabhupada Recommends Direct Sanga With Pure Vaishnavas

<hr> BY MADAN MOHAN DASA

EDITORIAL, Sep 18 (VNN) — Srila Prabhupada instructs us unequivocally:

...The neophyte devotee must be protected by being surrounded by pure devotees...A so-called mature devotee, however, commits a great offense by giving up the company of pure devotees...By one's mental concoctions one falls down.

(Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 19.157, purport)

"Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself."

Purport

It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krsna sends an instructing spiritual master to show him favor and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the external senses of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity.

(Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 1.58)

It is indicated that to learn the transcendental science, it is imperative that one avoid the company of undesirable persons and always seek the company of saints and sages who are able to impart lessons of transcendental knowledge. The potent words of such realized souls penetrate the heart, thereby eradicating all misgivings accumulated by years of undesirable association. For a neophyte devotee there are two kinds of persons whose association is undesirable:

(1) gross materialists who constantly engage in sense gratification and:

(2) unbelievers who do not serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead but serve their senses and mental whims in terms of their speculative habits.

(Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 1.59, purport)

The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor...The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple's energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency.

If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord.

Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.

(Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 1.35, purport)

A spiritual master is not an enjoyer of facilities offered by his disciples. He is like a parent. Without the attentive service of his parents, a child cannot grow to manhood, similarly without the care of the spiritual master one cannot rise to the plane of transcendental service.

...The bonafide spiritual master always engages in unalloyed devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By this test he is known to be a direct manifestation of the Lord and a genuine representative of Sri Nityananda Prabhu.

Such a spiritual master is known as acaryadeva.

Influenced by an envious temperament and dissatisfied because of an attitude of sense gratification, mundaners criticise a real acarya.

(Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 1.46, purport)

While the bhakti-lata creeper is growing, the devotee must protect it by fencing it all around. The neophyte devotee must be protected by being surrounded by pure devotees...A so-called mature devotee, however, commits a great offense by giving up the company of pure devotees...By one's mental concoctions one falls down.

(Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 19.157, purport)

The criterion is that a devotee must know what Krsna wants him to do. This can be achieved through the medium of the spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Krsna...Without accepting a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, one cannot find out the real purpose of devotional service. Therefore one has to accept the shelter of a bona fide spiritual master and agree to be directed by him.

(Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 19.167, purport)

An uttama-adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has attained the realized state of unalloyed Krishna consciousness.

...One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well towards the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master.

(Nectar of Instruction Text Five, purport)

Both the untenable policy of banning association with pure Vaishnavas and the sastrically unsupported "no living link is necessary" assertion of "ritvik" philosophy are exposed and comprehensively dismissed as disobedient speculation in the above crystal-clear instructions given by Srila Prabhupada in his perfect translations of Gaudiya Vedanta sastra and his fully authoritative purports.

Maintaining the integrity of true Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta and maintaining the proper standard of Vaishnava sadacara on behalf of all our previous acaryas, while actually developing our love for Hari, Sri Guru and Vaishnavas constitutes our prime duty in serving the mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

The primary purpose of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon is to provide unqualified persons with abundant opportunities to acquire sukrti (spiritual merit) by performing devotional services as prescribed throughout all his books, through the excellent facilities he provided.

The ultimate fruit of sukrti is to be permitted entry into the sanga of pure Vaishnavas, whose direct personal sanga, instructions and mercy are the exclusive means by which entry into Sri Krishna's eternal abode is made possible, as conclusively confirmed through the infallible authority of guru, sadhu, sastra. Srila Prabhupada's books alone - if they constitute our only accepted authority - consistently reaffirm this simple, irrefutable truth.

By sincere prayers and submission to Sri Krishna as caittya-guru in our hearts, He cannot but appear before us in the form of Sri Guru, the pure, uttama-adhikari Vaishnavas who will act as our siksa gurus and even as our diksa gurus to give us shelter and mercy in the form of their direct personal instructions to each of us individually, according to our acquired natures.

To me, to avoid such direct sanga or not to be seeking out such sanga following the direct orders of Srila Prabhupada would indicate either:

a) we have not read Srila Prabhupada's books,

b) we have read but not understood Srila Prabhupada's instructions,

c) we have read and understood Srila Prabhupada's teachings but have maintained a defiant mood of self-interest and non-surrender towards Sri Krishna (as opposed to a submissive mood of guru-seva for the pleasure of Sri Sri Radha-Govindaji), or

d) we have not prayed sincerely to Sri Krishna in the form of caittya-guru to mercifully guide us to His divine lotus feet by appearing directly before our external senses in the form of Sri Guru.

Please correct me if I have expressed any misunderstandings of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and feel free to contact me at any time, with sastric validation from Srila Prabhupada's books to support opposing viewpoints.

Thank you.

Your servant aspiring for the service of Sri Guru & Gauranga,

Madan Mohan dasa.

 

 

[Jugg 0]

"One should understand the spiritual master to be as good as I am," said the Blessed Lord. "Nobody should be jealous of the spiritual master or think of him as an ordinary man, because the spiritual master is the sum total of all demigods." That is, the acarya has been identified with God Himself. He has nothing to do with the affairs of this mundane world. He does not descend here to meddle with the affairs of temporary necessities, but to deliver the fallen, conditioned souls--the souls, or entities, who have come here to the material world with a motive of enjoyment by the mind and the five organs of sense perception. He appears before us to reveal the light of the Vedas and to bestow upon us the blessings of full-fledged freedom, after which we should hanker at every step of our life's journey. SSR

 

HDG Shrila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada Goswami Maharaja Ki Jai

Just see, the spiritual master is the sum of all the demigods, yet the demigods won't even come down to this earth planet to pass stool. This is Kali-yuga.

[Puru_Das 0]

<CENTER>INTRODUCTION

</CENTER>Srila Rupa Gosvami was the younger brother of Sri Sanatana Gosvami and was elder to Sri Vallabha, who was father of Sri Jiva Goswami. Sri Vallabh was subsequently known as Anupama. They were Karnata-Brahmanas by birth. Sri Jiva Gosvami, nephew of Sri Rupa and Sri Sanatana, gives a genealogical tree of their family at the end of his book Laghutosani.

 

It will, therefore, be worth while to explain here in a nutshell the transcendental significance of Mahabhava, which is identified with Sri Radha alone. The conception of Sri Radha is completely misconceived by most people.From the present state of utter self-forgetfulness of an individual soul, engrossed in the physical and mental tabernacles till its final freedom and attainment of Prema-Bhakti, there are different stages of gradual unfolding of the innate dormant nature of the soul, which it must undergo by way of spiritual practices before it can aspire to understand and relish the super -excellence of Sri Radha-Krsna-Prema.

These stages are (I) SRADDHA (II) SADHU-SANGA, (III)BHAJANA-KRIYA, (IV) ANARTHA-NIVRTTI, (V) NISTHA, (VI) RUCI, (VII) ASAKTI, (VIII) BHAVA, and (IX) PREMA.

 

Sri Rupa Goswami deals in this book, Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu with the subject matter of PREMA starting form its lowest step of SRADDHA. From (I) Sraddha to (IV) Anartha nivrrti are steps of spiritual sadhana (practices) from utter bondage to the souls freedom from the clutches of the threefold deviating influences of Maya, the Deluding Energy of God. After self-realization, the soul develops in his or her spiritual practices from (V) Nistha to (IX) Prema, which is attainable even while the soul in not separated from his or her physical and mental, subtle, coverings.

 

PREMA can develop in the siddha-deha, alone, i.e. the supra mundane and eternally spiritual body of the pure soul or the finite self otherwise called Jiva-atma, as categorically different from the physical and mental associations into: (X) SNEHA, (XI) MANA, (XII) PRANAYA, (XIII) RAGA, (XIV) ANU-RAGA, (XV) BHAVA, and (XVI) MAHABHAVA (XV) Bhava is distinct from (VIII) Bhava-rati in the earlier stages of Bhakti and spiritual practices till Prema is attained. The individual finite self or the Jiva-atma cannot, as stated above, attain Mahabhava. The conceptions about (I) Sraddha to (IX) Prema have been dealt with the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu by Srila Rupa Goswami, while Sri Rupa has elaborately explained the stages from (X) Sneha to (XVI) Mahabhava in his famous Ujjvala-Nilamani.

 

As there has been a lot of confused thinking amongst scholars both eastern and western, about the true nature of Bhakti in general, Prema in particular, and much more about Mahabhava, i.e. the supra-mundane Love-Sports of the Counter-Whole (Sri Radha) with the Predominating Original Whole (Sri Krsna)--the Absolute-Whole having projected Itself out into the second or Counter-Whole without losing the Original Whole(Cf. Upanisad), and as these technical transcendental aspects of the unalloyed soul's eternal and ever progressive relations with the Supreme Being Sri Krsna have been wrongly identified in certain quarters with mundane and sensual love-dalliance, we propose to give here a sort explanatory note on each of the above mentioned sixteen stages of the souls progress to self-realization and God realization and the reciprocal relationships that exist between God (Param-Atma) and the individual soul or finite self (Jiv-atma). In the glossary at the end of the book, these technical terms in Rasa-Sastra Literature will be explained and in the Text we shall retain the original Sanskrta expressions which cannot conveniently be rendered into English equivalents. For example, it is absolutely wrong to translate Prema as "love" or Mahabhava as "great sentiment". By such 'easy' translation, the whole purpose of the Works of Sri Rupa Goswami will be lost.

 

(Tridandi Swami Bhakti Hridaya Bon Maharaj

introduction to Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu)

 

(I) SRADDHA: Faith in the Supreme Being Sri Krsna, i.e. the faith that by serving Him alone everything else is served wholly and completely, as by pouring water at the root of a plant all its branches twigs and leaves are fed. Sraddha is aroused in the heart of an individual in bondage, but his association with saints and by listening to the injunctions of the Scriptures. Sraddha is of two kinds viz. (a) mundane, and (b) spiritual.

The spiritual Sraddha or firm faith is the seed of Bhakti (Cf. Bhakti Sandarbha)

 

(II) SADHU SANGA: Company of Sadhus or Saints. This means an individuals eager desire to be in the company of a Sadhu in order to learn the methods of spiritual practices for God realization alone and for no other purpose. But who is a Sadhu?

 

According to Bhagavatam, Canto XI, Chap. 11, Slokas 29 to 31, the following are the qualities of a genuine Sadhu or Saint: A Sadhu is kind; he cherishes animosity toward none; he smilingly endures even the bitterest miseries; he loves Truth as the vein-blood of his life; he never allows any evil thought to pollute his mind; he looks upon all with equal love and compassion; he does not entertain any kind of mundane desires to darken his mental quantum; he is self-controlled, amiable and pure in character; he remains farthest from any attempt to accumulate for his future subsistence and does not beg anything form anybody; he is abstentious and peaceful; he is steady in his mind; he depends absolutely on the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna, and remains in constant remembrance of the Lord; he is patient, solemn, magnanimous and undisturbed even by utmost provocations and turmoils; he has control over hunger,thirst, lamentations ,infatuation, birth and death; he does never aspire after respect for himself, but is always respectful to others; he is friendly to all; his heart is full of compassion for others; he is fully conversant with the real nature of God; and he is erudite. To keep company with such a one in person, thought and through discussions is Sadhu-sanga.

[Guest guest]

Puru das wrote:

 

As you pointed out there may be posters who stay anonymous with no ill intent in mind. Indeed there may be others that stay anonymous simply to generate contention and make mischief.

 

Remaining anonymous on these forums is all too often a way to hide behind a keyboard, and not be honest enough to take responsibility for what you post. Like wearing a mask. Say anything, do anything and no one knows who you are. Freedom to commit cyber aparadha with the only consequence your continuance in the cycle of samsara.

 

 

Well Puruji, you probably won't believe this but I have posted on forums using my true name. Previously, I was always attached to making sure everybody knew who was saying the things I said.

I was proud of my views.

I still have a lot of faith in my own views, though occasionaly I do find myself on the short end of the stick, so I try to learn something and keeping on moving.

 

When I came to this forum this time, I decided to be more humble and not so proud and boasting of my views and wanting to get credit for everything I said.

 

This time, I just want to contribute ideas without being attached to getting credit for it.

 

I am not at all afraid or opposed to stating my true name and identity, but I have made a determination to quit being so attached to getting credit for what I say and just try to give all the credit to the sources from where I get my ideas.

 

Take it or leave it.

That is the truth and I don't plan to change that because someone wants to bully me around and force me to go against my own conscience.

 

best wishes always,

anonymous

[Das Anu das 0]

Dear Puru Das,

 

That was an interesting reply to my points. I have now become even more clear on this issue.

 

You wrote.

 

"As you pointed out there may be posters who stay anonymous with no ill intent in mind. Indeed there may be others that stay anonymous simply to generate contention and make mischief."

 

For the record, the statement. "Indeed there may be others that stay anonymous simply to generate contention and make mischief" was made by you.

 

First of all, whenever anyone challenges a point someone else makes, this is the defiinition of contention. This is normal in discussion, to seek authoritative reference on points another makes that are not presented as such, and may be in doubt to the listener.

 

Mischief is quite another matter. I personally see little if any of this. And posting anonymously gives no immunity to such a mischief maker. A moderator can see it for what it is and block the ISP.

 

You said.

 

"Remaining anonymous on these forums is all too often a way to hide behind a keyboard, and not be honest enough to take responsibility for what you post. Like wearing a mask. Say anything, do anything and no one knows who you are."

 

Here you have a point. Only in that if a person breaks the law, being slanderous, libelous, or making threat of violence, it is a easier to avoid prosecution. But not foolproof.

 

You said.

 

"Freedom to commit cyber aparadha with the only consequence your continuance in the cycle of samsara."

 

What other consequence is there? I see plenty of people on this forum committing aparadha every day, who post under their names. They are usually the ones most raising a stink about all the aparadha they see, because they are strictly unaware of their own, and this is because they actually believe they are above such things as I pointed out earlier.

 

The consequences of committing aparadha are doled out by the Supreme Lord. To imagine that doing so under anonymity here would mitigate the justice doled out by the Lord is aparadha in itself. But I am sure now that I put it this way, you realize your mistake.

 

You said.

 

"However you cannot hide from Supersoul and He knows everyone's isp."

 

Very clever and true. Although that doesn't match your previous conclusion about consequences.

 

Which brings me to the point of clarity I mentioned earlier.

 

It seems that the biggest problem you are having is actually that you recieve the greatest flat out challenge from anonymous posters.

 

That you have difficulty refuting their challenges, and thus consider that they must be either offensive to your Guru, and unneccessarily critical, or mischief makers.

 

As if knowing their name would enable you to present your side of the story with more potency and effect.

 

Nevermind the history we all know so well of people who get banned, beaten, or worse when issuing a strong challenge to the party line in any scenario. Especially one where those challenged are not actually capable of mounting a significant defense. And the frustration from that inability mounts into a behavior of lashing out, instead of submitting that

 

Maybe. Just maybe. There is something you are missing.

 

In the "old days" people would enter into debate happy to win or lose. Because the goal was to get closer to the truth. Losing just meant winning. And recognition that someone else had defeated you meant glory to the Lord.

 

These days, I expect no such thing, nor do the other anonymous posters I know. I feel largely these are forays into highly sectarian camps. People stand upon their illusions as rock solid truth, and even in the face of one pointing it out with alacrity, lucidity, and aplomb, they still deny it, and instead go into damage control mode, labeling as offensive the victor.

 

The only benefit is usually that this behavior is revealed, and anyone innocent who was on the fence now has a better idea of the product they were eyeing up.

 

I have actually enjoyed some nice discussions here, but your complaint is certainly indicative of the type I just described, for all the reasons mentioned.

 

You seem like a strongly intellectual person. I wish you would take this observation of mine to heart, and rely on your ability to present the facts in any case, and look forward to being shown a greater light once in awhile when you face that inevitable moment.

 

sincerely

 

Mark

[Puru_Das 0]

Mark,

Greetings. There just is not much love and affection in cyberspace, is there? What can we do? The only real problem that any of us have is that we are all racing towards inevitable death. Sadhu-sanga certainly seems to me our only hope for solving our present dilemna. How else will we ever be able to get beyond nama aparadha and approach nama abhasa?

 

Thanks for your concern, but the only "problem" in responding to Vaisnava aparadha and apasiddhanta is that there is so much siddhanta that our acaryas have left explaining what Srila Rupa Gosvami has taught that sometimes it is hard to decide which to utilize.

 

If posters insist on being anonymous, they could at least use some name so that other participants can distinguish one guest from another. If someone wants to get involved in any discussion, I feel they should register and use a name, real or unreal as it suits them

 

As I understood Jn das's guidelines for the forums states a policy that guests are not supposed to "attack members." No one appreciates anonymous snipers. An anonymous guest once again, last night, used the phrase "old swamis from the Gaudiya Math." Rude and crude doesn't help anyone culture spiritual life. When Baladeva Vidyabhusana debated with the Ramavadis in Jaipura regarding Radha Krsna Madhurya lila, you can be sure that all parties involved always maintained a polite demeanor and quoted their positions based on pramana (evidence) from shastra .

 

" In Dasa-Mula Siksa, there are ten teachings which have been divided into two parts, pramana and prameya. The first part, pramana, means evidence, and the other nine teachings are called prameya. What truths and realities that have been proven by that evidence are called prameya. These are divided into sambandha-tattva-jnana-knowledge of your relationship; abhidheya-tattva-jnana-knowledge of the process; and prayojana-tattva-jnana-knowledge of the supreme goal of life. Prameya can be defined as the Absolute Truth which has been proven by reliable evidence. . .

 

It is not easy to understand sastra. Nowadays, people quote only one line and say, "Oh, this is the absolute truth." It will not even be from sastra, not from Prabhupada's books. Then they will quote from a letter, a telephone conversation, from an argument with an atheist or anything else. They take only one line, and on the basis of this, they say, "This is pramana." But this is not the teaching of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. What are His teachings? Amnaya praha-the statements of the Vedas received in guru-parampara are evidence. And those statements are subject to interpretation as well. So when we go deeply into the subject of interpretation, we find that it is not easy to understand any statement correctly without guidance. Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana and our acaryas have explained that you cannot just quote something from sastra and then say this is pramana, this is evidence. If you give some idea from sastra, this is called visaya, your subject matter. But then someone can question the way that you presented your idea. That is called samsaya, the doubt. Then on the basis of that doubt, someone can build a counter argument against your original idea. That is called purva-paksa. That counter argument is also full of statements from the Vedas. . .

 

If someone takes just one verse or one sentence and presents it as proof, they may very well be making some blunder, because many devotees, especially those in the West, are not steeped with Vaisnava culture. Therefore when they see one piece of evidence, one sentence, one verse, one conversation, they say, "O my God! Yes it's true!" They believe it. But someone who knows Vaisnava culture will reserve his judgment for a few moments and then ask, "Where is it from? Who spoke it to whom? What is the context?" This is called visaya, the thesis. Then samsaya, a doubt is raised, and then purva-paksa, antithesis, all the evidence against the original thesis. Then comes siddhanta, the actual conclusion. After siddhanta is sangati, reconciling all the statements in such a way that we recognize their value and purpose, according to the context in which we find them. So devotees should not be misled by false propaganda, such as, "The jiva has fallen from the spiritual world-here is my evidence.Guru can be a conditioned soul-here is my evidence.Don't think of Krsna when you're chanting; only listen to the sound." There are so many isolated statements that can prove particular points, but this is not the teaching of Mahaprabhu. To accept any isolated statement, we have to go through the stages: visaya, samsaya, purvapaksa, siddhanta, and sastra sangati."

Pramana Tattva by

Prema Prayojana das

http://bvml.org/contemporary/AM_pt.html

.

[Guest guest]

Conversation with Srila Prabhupada

 

May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia

 

Madhudvisa: “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?”

 

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.”

 

Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…”

 

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain.

 

From Sri Krsna Kathamrita Vol. 2 No.1

 

Also in Prabhpada conversations book #13

[Puru_Das 0]

 

Puru das wrote:

 

 

 

Well Puruji, you probably won't believe this but I have posted on forums using my true name. Previously, I was always attached to making sure everybody knew who was saying the things I said.

I was proud of my views.

I still have a lot of faith in my own views, though occasionaly I do find myself on the short end of the stick, so I try to learn something and keeping on moving.

 

When I came to this forum this time, I decided to be more humble and not so proud and boasting of my views and wanting to get credit for everything I said.

 

This time, I just want to contribute ideas without being attached to getting credit for it.

 

I am not at all afraid or opposed to stating my true name and identity, but I have made a determination to quit being so attached to getting credit for what I say and just try to give all the credit to the sources from where I get my ideas.

 

Take it or leave it.

That is the truth and I don't plan to change that because someone wants to bully me around and force me to go against my own conscience.

 

best wishes always,

anonymous

 

Congratulations for trying to stay free from false prestige, pratistha.

Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has stated in Manah-siksa:

 

pratisthasa dhrsta svapaca-ramani me hrdi natet

katham sadhuh-prema sprsati sucir etan nanu manah

sada tvam sevasva prabhu-dayita-samantam atulam

yatha tam niskasya tvaritam iha tam vesayati sah

 

[“O mind! How can pure divine love appear in my heart as long as the shameless dog-eating outcaste woman of the desire for prestige is audaciously dancing there? Therefore, always remember and serve the immeasurably powerful commanders of the army of Krsna, the beloved devotees of the Lord. They will at once banish this outcaste woman and initiate the flow of immaculate vraja-prema in your heart.” (Manah-siksa, verse 7)]

[Das Anu das 0]

Dear Puru Das,

 

Dandavats.

 

All Glories to AC Bhaktivedanta Swami and true Vaisnavas everywhere.

 

Love and Affection are broadcast through the ethers and connect to whom those sentiments are intended, regardless of the physical obstacles between communicants, such as a computer.

 

Though I agree with you that generally, Cyberspace is filled with head-trippers who have bypassed most of their human emotional body, and seek only mental control of others.

 

something you just wrote struck me particularly.

 

"Thanks for your concern, but the only "problem" in responding to Vaisnava aparadha and apasiddhanta is that there is so much siddhanta that our acaryas have left explaining what Srila Rupa Gosvami has taught that sometimes it is hard to decide which to utilize."

 

Herein lies the Glory of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhpada who said.

 

Suppose I have heard something from my spiritual master, so I speak to you the same thing. So this is parampara system. You cannot imagine what my spiritual master said. Or even if you read some books, you cannot understand unless you understand it from me. This is called parampara system. You cannot jump over to the superior guru, neglecting the next acharya, immediate next acharya."

(Srila Prabhupada lecture December 8th, 1973)

 

As any truly empowered Acharya does, he took into account his audience, and encapsulated Srila Rupa Goswami's instructions for us fallen Westerners.

 

So personally I limit myself to his instructions on any matter and consider that he has brought me the essence of All previous acharyas in the Gaudiya Sampradaya which he represents. He knew we were not suited to read and examine the full body of direct writings of Srila Rupa Goswami and apply them to our lives. Or else we would have been born at his lotus feet!

 

So the Lord is kind enough to make an adjustment. So we must place our faith in the orders of the Acharya who is the Current link to the Sampradaya and we will not be left confused.

 

I hope this finds you well.

 

y.s.

 

Mark

[Das Anu das 0]

Dear Guest,

 

the citation you posted I found tricky until I became very quiet inside while reading it.

 

 

Conversation with Srila Prabhupada

 

May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia

 

Madhudvisa: “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?”

 

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.”

 

Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…”

 

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain.

 

 

 

Madhudivsa is wondering if a person who does not have personal (here refering to physical) association with Srila Prabhupada can become a devotee by reading his books.

 

In Srila Prabhupada's way, he answers the question in the affirmative, yet begins the response with the word NO.

 

Yes, it is possible. It is not that you have to associate with the author.

 

Some people decide that since he says No, it is not that.... means that he is saying no you can't become a devotee without "personal" association.

 

But this would contradict the fact that he says, "it is NOT that you have to associate with the author".

 

So he used a double negative, but the essence is clear.

 

In the next sentence, Srila Prabhupada describes what to do IF someone CANNOT UNDERSTAND (refering to the books)

 

 

But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him.

 

IF one can't understand, then take a lesson from one who knows. (A trained up disiple of his? A godbrother of his? Anyone who knows "the subject matter")

 

So this is not conclusive evidence that one Cannot become a pure devotee and acheive Love of Godhead by only reading Srila Prabhupada's books, and following his instructions.

 

Although those instructions include Sadhu Sanga, and many other types of activities based on association, One who CAN UNDERSTAND has no need for an interpreter to understand what Srila Prabhupada describes and instructs in his Books on any level.

 

Unless anyone has proof otherwise.

 

Hari Bol