Fw: Comment - Query - Suggestion

June 15, 2000

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"Sevabhiruci das" <seva (AT) post (DOT) pl>

Wednesday, June 14, 2000 11:37 PM

Comment - Query - Suggestion

> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by

> Sevabhiruci das (seva (AT) post (DOT) pl) on Thursday, June 15, 2000 at 03:37:04

> --------

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>

> Comments: Are there any ISKCON farms in Russia? I never heard but I want

be sure because someone was asking me about this.

> Thank yo in advance.

> Ys, Seva

>

> --------

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>

January 27, 2001

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"mark chatburn" <markjon11 >

"Iscowp" <iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net>

Sunday, January 28, 2001 3:32 PM

Re: Comment - Query - Suggestion

> Thank you Balabadrha for your promt reply.

> I am finally glad I can now have a discourse with you.

> I am working with Symashundra at the Manor, Gunagrahi

> Maharaja, here in Argentina, and with Hanumanpuri

> Swami via email.

>

> Please excuse my pushyness on this, but it has been

> some years I have wanted to contact yourselves and

> HKDD, with whom I had a connection before.

>

> You wrote:

>

> Bala, you say that the ISKCON farms

> > realised that if you do not

> > kill the unproductive animals, as on a normal farm,

> > then there is no profit,

> > thus you run Protection Farms (as I call them) as a

> > charity.

> >

> > I don't remember ever saying this as you have stated

> > it.

>

> I picked this comment from your web site. The issue I

> was trying to bring up is that cow protection can be

> an extremely proftable enterprise, and if the business

> model is based on good principles and sound management

> there is no reason for it not to be.

>

> I believe that in Protection Farms is a commercial

> model to be implemented in the right times with this

> fear of mad cows. Happy Farms with Happy cow milk. It

> needs a middle way approach, a business-orientated

> profit-led success story. If you remember Spiritual

> Sky incence, ISKCON has had commercial success

> stories, the sacred cow could be its greateset yet.

>

> The point is, as I say to Symasundra, one day this

> business will be taken up by somebody, me, you, some

> devotee, karmi, whatever, and from then on the concept

> of protected farm animals will emerge. There will be

> thousands of businesses under various standards of

> qualities, selling a range of products and services

> form hand-milked, ox-powered protected farm animals to

> machine-milked, wild steers protected farm animals.

> Most would be organic, but in a free market what

> appears appears and regulates itself.

>

> > We have received your attachment of VEDA and have

> > looked it over. We

> > appreciate your efforts but find some serious flaws

> > that we could discuss

> > with you if you wish.

>

> I would be very interested in your critisisms, please.

> I plan to make this a water-tight case, therefore all

> critisism is a blessing.

>

> If you like you could become a

> > member of the cow

> > conference, (we could make you a member also).

> > Regardless of membership, you

> > could submit some key ideas and they could be

> > discussed.

>

> Yes. I have seen the cow conference and am very eager

> to put my ideas up and to listen to others. Shyam is

> the man whom I have had most contact with in this

> issue, and he has commented that he believes that cow

> protection needs to be a profitable business. In the

> old times 95% of wealth was in the hands of the people

> and the market was liberal, or so I have heard. If the

> pursuit of profit is sensibly orientated I see nothing

> wrong in this, only good as it ensures the stability

> and sustainability of the enterprise.

>

> I have just had a proposal with the Vegetarian Society

> UK rejected, which would have included the lifetime

> protection of farm animals in their charity´s

> constitution. They say I should set up VEDA, the

> Vegetarian Environmental Development Association, as

> that will be the only way to take it forward as it is

> a niche in all avenues, except the religious.

>

> Still, I hope to get somewhere with this. I had a 2

> page article in their magazine last year and have one

> scheduled for the end of this year.

>

> Please assist me in my endeavour. Hope to hear from

> you in the meantime.

>

> Current material I have is the 15 page VEDA &

> Protection Farms, and a power point presentation to

> the Veg Soc.

>

> Yours, Mark

>

> Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.

> http://auctions./

>

January 29, 2001

"ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" wrote:

> -

> "mark chatburn" <markjon11 >

> "Iscowp" <iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net>

> Sunday, January 28, 2001 3:32 PM

> Re: Comment - Query - Suggestion

Dear Mark,

Been there, (Kirtanananda) done that, still cleaning up the mess.

One question Mark - do you have any practical experience in agriculture

at all or is this all some idealistic vision?

January 29, 2001

Hello, don't know how this got to you, a virus slip

maybe.

Anyway don't know what email your relating to.

Kirtinanda did a centralised commercial dairy that was

not profitable. It did not plan for future costs and

therefore, as most ISKCON farm ventures, fell into

bankruptcy.

Yes, I do have agricultural experience and a degree in

Agroforestry.

Yes, this is an idealistic vision based on the idea

that not killing farm animals is a good idea and if

worked properly could very well be a profitable

venture.

Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.

http://auctions./

January 30, 2001

>

> Yes, I do have agricultural experience and a degree in

> Agroforestry.

>

What is the nature of that agricultural experience?

I was born and raised on a farm and have been an observer of

agriculture all my life, still raising a few things and selling at

farmer's markets. When I came to New Vrindaban in 1973 there was

600,000 dairy farms in the US. Now there aren't much more than a

100,000. It is not that those nearly 500,000 farmers were fools or

didn't want to dairy. And they sold the beef. There is no possible way

to make money with protecting cows unless there is a subsidy or a

*proven* market segment willing to pay a substantial premium over

competitive market prices.

>

> Yes, this is an idealistic vision based on the idea

> that not killing farm animals is a good idea and if

> worked properly could very well be a profitable

> venture.

I have heard this over and over from ISKCON devotees but have never seen

it demonstrated and the landscape is littered with failed projects. I

am loathe to see another idealist create yet another situation where

once the milk flow dries up and the cows are still eating the idealist

just walks away.

Nothing personal.

January 30, 2001

> > Yes, this is an idealistic vision based on the idea

> > that not killing farm animals is a good idea and if

> > worked properly could very well be a profitable

> > venture.

>

> I have heard this over and over from ISKCON devotees but have never seen

> it demonstrated and the landscape is littered with failed projects. I

> am loathe to see another idealist create yet another situation where

> once the milk flow dries up and the cows are still eating the idealist

> just walks away.

Surely Srila Prabhupadas whole drive is not for material profit! Actualy if

the cows are looked after nicely, which means they are given love, so much

so that *they* feel happy, then the whole of society profits inestimably,

but of course this is an intangible effect.

Cow protection should be an affair of the heart. Cows are happy when they

are loved. We need to think of cows as children. Who would consider adopting

some children so they can make some money? They are part of the family.

Because cows are silent, there is a tendency to think of them as producers,

rather than as sentient beings capable of reciprocating love. Once we

understand that the species is sacred because Krsna loves them, because of

the cows unconditional munificence in milk, and the strength and good nature

of the ox, and because as we love them, all human endeavour is blessed, we

can then put cow protection into the right perspective.

One devotee here was telling me how his father and mother would weep when a

bull calf was born to the family. Things had already gotten so bad in terms

of the progress of Kali yuga, the spread of 'education' resulting in

youngsters leaving the village, and land being brought up by commercial

concerns, pushing its value way beyond the economics of simple living, they

could no longer take care, the animals fate was already sealed.

ISKCON is supposed to turn back this tide. We have to liberate land from the

comercial interests, and turn it back towards sane varnasrama management.

This is the way for the movement to spread, and actualy make a meaningful

difference in this world.

I also mean no offense here, just a few thoughts.

YS Samba das

January 30, 2001

Samba, there are no good working models precisely

because the cow is not seen as a business. Yes, she is

like a child, but I would not skin my kid for leather

as I would, and have done, a cow.

It needs to be seen in a sentient and a utilitarian

form.

I have a 15 page discussion document entitled VEDA &

Protection Farms which outlines the commercial

approach.

Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to form self-sufficient

lives. Yet, a huge mortgage over ones farm deprives

one of the ability to be at ease and money must be

made somehow. I can buy milk for 50 cents a litre, but

I can´t but protected cow milk for any price, it is

rare. I would happily pay $2 per litre, yet where is

it? It is a niche market commanding a premium price.

ISKCON has made its mistakes and had its successes,

but a commercial model is every day more in the cards.

I am an old (young) ISKCONer but my idea is a

commercial farm based on the lifetime protection of

farm animals. At least the standards I maintain will

be based on the Vedas. Someone else will not do this.

This is why ISKCON must pre-empt the karmi and do

commercial farming now before standards water down,

which they inevitably will do. Any effort made is

progress. To have tried to protect cows and fail is

better than not at all. But to try with knowledge and

skilled application is better than a head-less plan.

That is why a business model is needed with every

component part costed and the market price derived.

It must be profitable otherwise it will draw even of

make a loss, the latter will lead to bankruptcy and

the slaughter of the animals. A profit must be made to

keep the project going. It must be planned for profit

and growth. It must be priced for profit and growth.

It is business accumen along with good principals that

will make it work.

Yours, Mark

Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35

a year! http://personal.mail./

January 30, 2001

Jnana: ...to attain the necessary finances to support the programs here.

Prabhupada: Beg. Sell book. That's all. Otherwise how you get finance?

Jnana: One idea is to have a farm that we sell fruit or vegetables, like

that.

Prabhupada: If you open farm for financial help, then it will not be

successful. You should take to farming for supporting yourself. That's all.

Grow your own food. Grow your own cloth. There is no need of financial help

from outside. You get your food grains sufficiently, rice, dahl, wheat,

vegetables, milk, sugar. Bas You get everything. From these five, six items

you should be economically free. That you have to do, not for trade to get

money. Then it will be failure.

[...] So farming means if you live in a farm... Just like in New Vrindaban

they are doing. Produce your own food, live peacefully, fresh vegetable,

fresh grains, fresh milk, and prepare so many nice milk preparation,

kachori, halava with ghee. Offer to the Deity. Eat sufficiently. What is the

use of going outside? Simple life and chant Hare Krsna. If you can organize

that, that will be very nice.

Jnana: A nice program here.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is this rascal civilization, whole day "Where is

money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money? Where is money?"

Everyone. Busy means "Where is money? Where is money?" Just like the hog, he

is busy: "What time...? Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?

Where is stool? Where is stool?" That is not civilization. If you remain

always busy, "Where is stool?" like the hog, then what is your civilization?

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- October 28, 1975, Nairobi

You say we must have a gosala trust, that is our real purpose.

krsi-goraksya-vanijyam vaisya karma svabhava-jam, [bg 18.44]. Where there

is agriculture there must be cows. That is our mission: Cow protection and

agriculture and if there is excess, trade. This is a no-profit scheme. For

the agriculture we want to produce our own food and we want to keep cows for

our own milk. The whole idea is that we are Iskcon, a community to be

independent from outside help. This farm project is especially for the

devotees to grow their own food. Cotton also, to make their own clothes. And

keeping cows for milk and fatty products.

Our mission is to protect our devotees from unnecessary heavy work to save

time for advancing in Krsna consciousness. This is our mission. So there is

no question of profit, but if easily there are surplus products, then we can

think of trading. Otherwise we have no such intention. We want a temple, a

gosala and agriculture. A community project as in Europe and America. We are

making similar attempts in India in several places. Immediately I'm going to

Hyderabad to organize the farm project there. We have 600 acres. We have the

permission from the government. There is no question of ceiling.

You may call the gosala: ISKCON Gosala and Farm Project Trust.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Yasomatinandana -- Vrindaban 28 November,

1976

Do not be discouraged if so far the collections have not been very great in

terms of money. More important than the results is the activity. Krsna wants

to see that you are fully engaged with all sincerity in preaching His

glories; that will please Him, not a certain amount of money. Moreover, if

you remain determined in that activity, then automatically the results will

come. It is like a woman who becomes married; if she immediately desires to

have a child, that is not possible. But because she is associating with her

husband, after due time, in 9 months she may have a child. We have to be

enthusiastic, determined and patient in the execution of our duties.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Aksayananda , Pancadravida -- Paris 14 June,

1974

> Samba, there are no good working models precisely

> because the cow is not seen as a business. Yes, she is

> like a child, but I would not skin my kid for leather

> as I would, and have done, a cow.

>

> It needs to be seen in a sentient and a utilitarian

> form.

>

> I have a 15 page discussion document entitled VEDA &

> Protection Farms which outlines the commercial

> approach.

>

> Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to form self-sufficient

> lives. Yet, a huge mortgage over ones farm deprives

> one of the ability to be at ease and money must be

> made somehow. I can buy milk for 50 cents a litre, but

> I can´t but protected cow milk for any price, it is

> rare. I would happily pay $2 per litre, yet where is

> it? It is a niche market commanding a premium price.

>

> ISKCON has made its mistakes and had its successes,

> but a commercial model is every day more in the cards.

> I am an old (young) ISKCONer but my idea is a

> commercial farm based on the lifetime protection of

> farm animals. At least the standards I maintain will

> be based on the Vedas. Someone else will not do this.

> This is why ISKCON must pre-empt the karmi and do

> commercial farming now before standards water down,

> which they inevitably will do. Any effort made is

> progress. To have tried to protect cows and fail is

> better than not at all. But to try with knowledge and

> skilled application is better than a head-less plan.

> That is why a business model is needed with every

> component part costed and the market price derived.

>

> It must be profitable otherwise it will draw even of

> make a loss, the latter will lead to bankruptcy and

> the slaughter of the animals. A profit must be made to

> keep the project going. It must be planned for profit

> and growth. It must be priced for profit and growth.

>

> It is business accumen along with good principals that

> will make it work.

>

> Yours, Mark

>

> Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35

> a year! http://personal.mail./

January 31, 2001

> Surely Srila Prabhupadas whole drive is not for

> material profit!

No, I don't think so. In his earlier days he was a

business man. If he did not make a profit his business

went down. Profit is a normal thing for a business.

Cow protection is a business, therefore profit.

Prabhupada was trying to create transcendental

communities. Here the profit motive is not as good as

karma or bhakti yoga. Yet in the Karma Kanda of the

Varnashrama system the vaisya has to make profit.

What's the problem?

I would not skin my child for a coat, I would, and

have, a cow.

One has to put sentient aprreciation and

utilitarianism in their correct places.

I have seen with devotees of all religions this

annoying trait to argue amongst each other using

quotes from their master. Flowery words.

In my opinion ISKON's fruit is fairly rotten. Is not

protecting farm animals for profit better than the

present normal system and better than the ISKCON

system that seems to be going no-where due to debt,

bad management and chaos (check the latest report).

With temples having to celebrate vaisnava festivities

away from the temple because it has been leased for

Dwali, etc, why is the cow so sacred that its the one

thing that ISKCON will not turn into a business?

Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35

a year! http://personal.mail./

February 1, 2001

> > Surely Srila Prabhupadas whole drive is not for

> > material profit!

>

> No, I don't think so. In his earlier days he was a

> business man. If he did not make a profit his business

> went down. Profit is a normal thing for a business.

Its true, and his business was not successful. The thing that I find

consistent in Prabhupadas teachings was his leaning towards simple living as

opposed to profit making. He said he would go to Gita Nagari and teach us to

live from the land, I dont recall him saying he would teach us how to run a

pharmacy business. Of course he liked to see success, but that success was

to come from pleasing the Lord. The best way to do that would be to live by

the system Krsna created for human society.

> Cow protection is a business, therefore profit.

Krsna doesn't see cow protection as a business, he just loves the cows.

> Prabhupada was trying to create transcendental

> communities. Here the profit motive is not as good as

> karma or bhakti yoga. Yet in the Karma Kanda of the

> Varnashrama system the vaisya has to make profit.

> What's the problem?

Prabhupada told us that business means, if there is some extra we trade, not

rascal business.

> I would not skin my child for a coat, I would, and

> have, a cow.

As far as I remember it is true that all parts of the cow can be used, and

in a varnasrama community, there were sudras who would take care of that

side of things.

It seems clear from Srila Prabhupadas abundant teachings that he wanted us

to create a 'parralel' society in which we develop our own micro economics.

It is true that surplus has to be there, defecit means it is not

sustainable. The trouble with the modern system is that big business pushes

the value of land, and hence all that can be produced from it, far from the

reach of simple people. This is the way that the industrialists can ensure

that they have cheap factory labour. ISKCON is supposed to liberate land and

let the simple folk live simply, produce as much as they can, and remember

Krsna. It is all about simplicity.

I am not trying to be argumentative, I just see it differently. I noticed

that in your proposition, there are a lot of areas in which you dont have

answers. For any business to be successful, especially in a niche market,

you realy need to do market research, and know your figures back to front.

Enthusiasm is great. But we have to remember that we are experimenting with

Krsna's cows. If you can guarantee a fund to take care of the cows,

according to ISKCON's guidelines, then I would think that you could

experiment away with your ideas. But first if you wanted support, you would

have to have answers to all those questions in which you lack the right

figures.

> I have seen with devotees of all religions this

> annoying trait to argue amongst each other using

> quotes from their master. Flowery words.

Personaly I feel that the words of the master are here for us to deliberate

on, otherwise why did Krsna send him to us to speak? His words are pregnant

with meaning, and can actualy be realised by those who surrender to the

process he has given. Some may trade quotes in a battle to 'win' arguments,

and I agree that this is annoying. Others may spend their lives trying to

understand the meaning or intention behind those statements. Isthagosti is

all about 'discussing what the guru has said', and this is the duty of a

disciple. Its all part of making spiritual progress.

I personaly admire some devotees ability to find the right quote, and let it

speak for itself. My tendency is to elaborate on Prabhupadas words, which

ultimately means that my false ego is getting in the way, because I am far

from being realised in this respect, my belief is not necesarily the

absolute truth.

> In my opinion ISKON's fruit is fairly rotten. Is not

> protecting farm animals for profit better than the

> present normal system and better than the ISKCON

> system that seems to be going no-where due to debt,

> bad management and chaos (check the latest report).

I agree that ISKCON is a long way from the ideal. But I attribute the reason

not to the fact that we have not 'gone commercial' with cow protection, but

that we have ignored Prabhupdas instructions on varnasrama. Varnasrama is a

system that that allows people to flourish because all people are allowed to

act according to their nature. Not that we are forced to act according to

the desires of someone who is mainly interested in building a power base, or

just controlling.

> With temples having to celebrate vaisnava festivities

> away from the temple because it has been leased for

> Dwali, etc, why is the cow so sacred that its the one

> thing that ISKCON will not turn into a business?

I dont think that the one beggars the other. If ISKCON is to get back on

track, we have to look at each and every aspect of our organisation very

carefully. Forgive me, I like your enthusiasm, I am also an enthusiastic

person when it comes to ways in which to make ISKCON succesful, my lack has

been in allowing my enthusiasm to overide a lot of the details, which

ultimately have to be answered if we are really going to make things work.

Personaly I would reccomend that you do all your homework, and actualy prove

with all the figures that your ideas will work. You admitted to not having

all the information. Until who can decide what will work?

I can sense your frustration. Like you I am sometimes exasperated that

devotees can be so skeptical, and that they wont put their energy behind

what I consider to be a good idea. I guess that is just life. The secret

(which I am yet to learn) is to be detached. If Krsna wants this to happen,

and he *is* in your heart and sees your sincerity, then what can stop it? If

you find the way is cluttered with obstacles, then maybe you have to

reconsider. Its not easy.

Your servant

Samba das

February 1, 2001

Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

Here's my two cents on commercial development of protected cow products:

1) The foundation must be a farm(s) in which:

a) land is not mortgaged

b) sufficient land to support food requirements of cows and farmers without

any sale outside

c) sufficient surplus to sell at local markets that under normal conditions

will be enough to pay taxes and to purchase essentials

d) protection from disaster by a well-endowed, well-managed Trust fund (at

least partially funded by the excess income of the farm - another form of

tax)

Note: The above requires a large initial capital investment

2) The commercial marketing of protected cow products should be a separate

business model from the farm itself. IN other words the farm cows, capital

and economics should not be put at risk in developing modern commercial

markets. Rather most farms would simply contract with the marketing people

for supplying products.

3) THe range of protected farm products should be diverse with some

lower-cost items bringing higher premiums. In other words the whole range of

food products would carry the protected farm label, pointing to the use of

oxen for cultivation as a step beyond "organic". I expect that. although the

difference between the cost of unprotected cow milk and protected cow milk

is quite high, there may not be as much difference between the cost of

produce grown with oxen and that grown by tractor.

I have been contemplating this model for promoting cow protection and

sustainable agriculture here in India. I believe that, if sufficient initial

capital is invested it is possible to make an economically viable system

that will help Indian farmers move away from their current model of direct

or indirect cow slaughter.

I agree that Srila Prabhupada was promoting something much simpler for the

devotees. I am thinking of this more for those marginal devotees in India ,

who are still hankering so much for material development that they turn a

blind eye to the fact that the old cows and bulls they sell to the muslims

end up slaughtered.

And for the city-dwelling vegetarians everywhere who could support this

system. It is a compromise with Srila Prabhupada's pure vision for

varnashram, but I believe it may help in the transition.

However, it is all theoretical right now. Some hard work, looking at the

numbers, researching the market and experimenting is needed. If there are

people ready to do this and come up with a workable business plan I believe

there are people, at least in INdia, who would finance it.

Your servant,

Pancaratna das

February 2, 2001

> Its true, and his business was not successful. The

> thing that I find

> consistent in Prabhupadas teachings was his leaning

> towards simple living as

> opposed to profit making.

I love Prabhupada´s vision. Personaly, I fall far

short of it. The thing is I am not putting forward his

vision. I´m saying with a 10% veg population there

should be a farming system to support it. This is

inevitable. Prabhupada´s version is great, but how

many of us are doing it, and will do it? Yet all sorts

of people can do Protection Farms as a business. It´s

a half-way option. Better than nought.

> > Cow protection is a business, therefore profit.

>

> Krsna doesn't see cow protection as a business, he

> just loves the cows.

>

Don´t vaisyas farm and do business. Is not farming a

business, therefore is not protecting cows a business?

>

> Prabhupada told us that business means, if there is

> some extra we trade, not

> rascal business.

>

How many businesses can survive today if efficiency

and profit are not focussed. Believe me I love the

idea of everyone working just enough, but I live in

the year 2001, and it aint like that mate. Get real,

me, you, everyone. We could all go to isolated

communities and live THE life, been there done it,

loved it, left it, now got kid and wife in city,

difficult to leave them behind. For those who can´t

what´s wrong with the next-best option, except that

it´s not THE best option?

> It seems clear from Srila Prabhupadas abundant

> teachings that he wanted us

> to create a 'parralel' society in which we develop

> our own micro economics.

Prabhu, I am not with ISKCON, I admire it and despise

it from a far. I wish they´d get it together, and I

may come back. My theme is the commercial protection

of farm animals.

The trouble with the modern system is

> that big business pushes

> the value of land, and hence all that can be

> produced from it, far from the

> reach of simple people. This is the way that the

> industrialists can ensure

> that they have cheap factory labour. ISKCON is

> supposed to liberate land and

> let the simple folk live simply, produce as much as

> they can, and remember

> Krsna. It is all about simplicity.

>

The trouble with the modern system is jhpoerigolahkv

bhhboawerhncvhasrklvjhl xxxxyyyyyzzzzzz!!!!!!!11111.

The trouble with ISKCON is n erfgbjtPOgñhñ

nbñAKEF´WJGóhbn ´sdk.

We all have a good idea what the trouble is, but when

solutions appear we find more problems.

I noticed

> that in your proposition, there are a lot of areas

> in which you dont have

> answers. For any business to be successful,

> especially in a niche market,

> you realy need to do market research, and know your

> figures back to front.

Of course, that´s why I come back to ISKCON to say

look guys I´m not going the whole hog, but I see I

could do a half job here. Help me with these figures.

> Enthusiasm is great. But we have to remember that we

> are experimenting with

> Krsna's cows. If you can guarantee a fund to take

> care of the cows,

> according to ISKCON's guidelines, then I would think

> that you could

> experiment away with your ideas. But first if you

> wanted support, you would

> have to have answers to all those questions in which

> you lack the right

> figures.

> > Personaly I would reccomend that you do all your

> homework, and actualy prove

> with all the figures that your ideas will work. You

> admitted to not having

> all the information. Until who can decide what will

> work?

I don´t have all the figures. I have not been able to

get secular groups to fund the research and ISKCON has

not took to my idea very well, and throws obstacles in

my way. I don´t have all the skills to do the figures,

I have an agroforestry degree, not an organic

ox-powered economist degree. I need help.

The point is, if we can get a compartmentalised system

and cost it over many years, derive a price, then we

can do market research to see if consumers are

willing. The quality standards (mostly based on

Prabhupada, except for the profit principal) can be

set, a business model formulated, capital raised, and

away we go. Just like any other business.

Is ISKCON in favour or against?

Sorry I´m so brash. To do with frustrated attachments

I believe.

Best wishes, Mark

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February 2, 2001

> Here's my two cents on commercial development of

> protected cow products:

>

> 1) The foundation must be a farm(s) in which:

>

> a) land is not mortgaged

> b) sufficient land to support food requirements of

> cows and farmers without

> any sale outside

> c) sufficient surplus to sell at local markets that

> under normal conditions

> will be enough to pay taxes and to purchase

> essentials

> d) protection from disaster by a well-endowed,

> well-managed Trust fund (at

> least partially funded by the excess income of the

> farm - another form of

> tax)

>

> Note: The above requires a large initial capital

> investment

Agreed.

How about being born with a golden spoon in ones

mouth. OR, create a business plan and raise capital.

> 2) The commercial marketing of protected cow

> products should be a separate

> business model from the farm itself. IN other words

> the farm cows, capital

> and economics should not be put at risk in

> developing modern commercial

> markets. Rather most farms would simply contract

> with the marketing people

> for supplying products.

Yes, as part of a compartmentalised system that is OK.

But it makes no scence to say one is not connected to

the other. What happens when the contract is broken

and you can no longer sell your milk for $1.50 a litre

and only for $0.30? It´s all part of the same system.

> 3) THe range of protected farm products should be

> diverse with some

> lower-cost items bringing higher premiums. In other

> words the whole range of

> food products would carry the protected farm label,

> pointing to the use of

> oxen for cultivation as a step beyond "organic". I

> expect that. although the

> difference between the cost of unprotected cow milk

> and protected cow milk

> is quite high, there may not be as much difference

> between the cost of

> produce grown with oxen and that grown by tractor.

This is my model.

> I have been contemplating this model for promoting

> cow protection and

> sustainable agriculture here in India. I believe

> that, if sufficient initial

> capital is invested it is possible to make an

> economically viable system

> that will help Indian farmers move away from their

> current model of direct

> or indirect cow slaughter.

Agreed.

> I agree that Srila Prabhupada was promoting

> something much simpler for the

> devotees. I am thinking of this more for those

> marginal devotees in India ,

> who are still hankering so much for material

> development that they turn a

> blind eye to the fact that the old cows and bulls

> they sell to the muslims

> end up slaughtered.

I am thinking of this for the more marginal devotees,

or whatever, all over the world. Oh! and the millions

of cows as well.

> And for the city-dwelling vegetarians everywhere who

> could support this

> system. It is a compromise with Srila Prabhupada's

> pure vision for

> varnashram, but I believe it may help in the

> transition.

So do I, please help me.

> However, it is all theoretical right now. Some hard

> work, looking at the

> numbers, researching the market and experimenting

> is needed. If there are

> people ready to do this and come up with a workable

> business plan I believe

> there are people, at least in INdia, who would

> finance it.

>

Not just in India. The UK, USA, Europe, even here in

Argentine. It is a market ready to be "exploited".

We need the business model with hard figures.

Please help me.

Yours, Mark

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February 2, 2001

Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

> Yes, as part of a compartmentalised system that is OK.

> But it makes no scence to say one is not connected to

> the other. What happens when the contract is broken

> and you can no longer sell your milk for $1.50 a litre

> and only for $0.30? It´s all part of the same system.

My point was that the farmer should not depend on the commercial market. The

farms should work economically without it. The profit from the commercial

market would be used for non-essentials only. The cows and bulls should

never be at the mercy of the global economy.

Let the entrepreneurs invest and take the risks and make the maximum profit,

but in no case should the cows suffer. That is the difficult thing. It may

not be possible, but I agree that we should explore the possibilities.

> We need the business model with hard figures.

>

> Please help me.

The essential element here is how much commercial surplus can a farm based

on organic methods and cow protection actually generate after meeting the

farmers and the cows own food needs. To determine this there are many

equations which members of this conference might be able to give. For

example, area of land that a team of ox can plow, number of teamsters

needed, etc.

This is different from subsistence farming, of course and there is an

argument that complete daivi-varnasrama communities would be based on

subsistence farming. Iam not sure this is true, but in any case, there is a

large number of people who are not willing to just subsist when the global

economy beckons with its high living standards. Many of these people,

however might be willing to participate in a system which both provides

self-reliance for essentials and an opportunity to exploit the global

economy for meaningful luxuries (like pilgrimages to India, computers to

communicate, advanced health care, etc.).

Mark, if you have the interest in developing this business model, why don't

you start asking the questions that are needed to plug in the spreadsheet?

Your servant,

Pancaratna das

February 2, 2001

Pancaratna ACBSP wrote:

> Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

>

> > Yes, as part of a compartmentalised system that is OK.

> > But it makes no scence to say one is not connected to

> > the other. What happens when the contract is broken

> > and you can no longer sell your milk for $1.50 a litre

> > and only for $0.30? It´s all part of the same system.

>

> My point was that the farmer should not depend on the commercial market. The

> farms should work economically without it. The profit from the commercial

> market would be used for non-essentials only. The cows and bulls should

> never be at the mercy of the global economy.

>

I am with Pancaratna on this one. Milk should be considered a valuable gift

and

not a commodity. Without trusts holding assets exempt from expediency (I see

two farms for sale at GBC meeting - do those farms have cows?) cows should not

be bred.

>

> > We need the business model with hard figures.

> >

> > Please help me.

You are dead on with this, please feel encouraged. But the model needs to

have

a nonprofit basis when it comes to cows. Good business model and nonprofit are

not mutually exclusive.

We need to establish trusts that function efficently and businesslike and can

guarantuee protection. Dependence on milk flow alone has proven disastorous

over and over again.

How to get these capital funds? I am thinking of using the term Cow Protection

by Proxy. While there may not immediately be protected milk to consume,

every

time I buy blood milk products, I put aside extra money earmarked to be sent

as a capital contribution to a Cow Protection Trust. This purifies the milk I

drink, and over the long haul entitles me to access to milk produced when

eventually the fund grows and cows are being bred literally producing protected

milk.

If every ISKCON devotee or dedicated vegetarian who drinks milk would do this,

the fund would grow.

If some sharp devotees would go to local univerities and study their capital

givng campaigns, and learn the art of Charitable Remainder Trusts et al, in

the long term quite a large institution for cow protection could evolve.

February 2, 2001

-

Pancaratna ACBSP <Pancaratna.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

mark chatburn <markjon11 >; Cow (Protection and related issues)

Thursday, February 01, 2001 5:56 PM

Re: Fw: Comment - Query - Suggestion

Pancaratna das

> Dandavad. Prabhupada kijaya!

>

> Here's my two cents on commercial development of protected cow products:

>

> 1) The foundation must be a farm(s) in which:

>

> a) land is not mortgaged

> b) sufficient land to support food requirements of cows and farmers

without

> any sale outside

> c) sufficient surplus to sell at local markets that under normal

conditions

> will be enough to pay taxes and to purchase essentials

> d) protection from disaster by a well-endowed, well-managed Trust fund (at

> least partially funded by the excess income of the farm - another form of

> tax)

>

> Note: The above requires a large initial capital investment

>

Comment:

New Talavan (ISKCON Mississippi Farm) has been in existence since June 1974

and to date have managed to met the first two requirements you have

suggested (mortgage free 1255 acres as of 1998). Four devotees at present

are erecting a deer fence around a field that is less than four acres in

size; two acres of it have been functioning as the deity garden for about

fifteen years. The intent being to establish a garden to feed all local

devotees. For the past two years, Bhakta Mike Duncan has planted and harvest

wheat, over the years has tested crops of sugarcane, rice, cotton and dahl

beans. All yield acceptable crops without many pest problems. Now we just

have to establish a Cow/Land Trust Fund.

Pancaratna das

> 2) The commercial marketing of protected cow products should be a separate

> business model from the farm itself. IN other words the farm cows, capital

> and economics should not be put at risk in developing modern commercial

> markets. Rather most farms would simply contract with the marketing people

> for supplying products.

Comment:

We have three separate legal entities; Food for Life of New Orleans, ISKCON

of the Gulf Coast and ISKCON of Mississippi to insure a secure risk free

community.

1. Food for Life of New Orleans distributes complete meals, four different

menus plus a special children's meal to a number of homeless centers in the

city of New Orleans (70 miles to the south west of New Talavan) and to

different Boys and Girls Clubs. These Clubs are situated in a number of

small cities stretching between New Orleans (Louisiana) in the west Mobile

(Alabama) in the east and Picayune (New Talavan is east of it 17 miles) to

the north.

2. ISKCON of the Gulf Coast owes the cow herd and manages the devotee labour

force, it leases from ISKCON of Mississippi the grazing rights and use of

all buildings. It is economic arm of the community as it does all the

preaching/temple functions.

3. ISKCON of Mississippi is the land holding corporation; it is a non-profit

corporation and is responsible for payment of land taxes (no taxes are paid

on five acres where the present temple, kitchen, pastoral house, school and

a new prasadam pavilion are situated).

4. Individual devotee families owe their own land (their acreages not

included in the temple 1250 acres) and homes either next to the temple

property or within ten minutes drive.

Pancaratna das

> 3) THe range of protected farm products should be diverse with some

> lower-cost items bringing higher premiums. In other words the whole range

of

> food products would carry the protected farm label, pointing to the use of

> oxen for cultivation as a step beyond "organic". I expect that. although

the

> difference between the cost of unprotected cow milk and protected cow milk

> is quite high, there may not be as much difference between the cost of

> produce grown with oxen and that grown by tractor.

>

Comment:

I am of the opinion that the temple itself should not engage in any of these

business or agricultural pursuits. These are the realm of the individual

grhastras, who out of devotion should donate a portion of their production

or income to support the temple and its functions.

There are two businesses that are tied to the land, Blue Boy and Comfort

Furniture Inc. Blue Boy produces herbal remedies gathered from the woods and

fields of New Talavan, Comfort Furniture makes Amish style furniture using

the local oak, wild cherry, hickory and other trees to make rockers and

other wood items. As I mentioned previously there are the other agricultural

pursuits that are in there formative stages. Our pecan orchard and beehives

have been plagued by various diseases related to our normally humid climate,

this year is the first year when we have harvested more than 200 lbs.

(shelled) pecans from 80 trees.

The cow barn does market to the local devotees any surplus above what the

temple uses. There are six families, which on their own property have taken

on the responsibilities for eight animals from the temple herd. These

responsibilities are housing, maintenance and liability. It is my dream that

some day that the temple will disperse its herd amongst the local devotees,

but alas at present not many are not so inclined to take up the challenge.

If they did, I envision they would form cooperatives that would lease land

from the temple properties that would be paid by the donation of milk, work

or products based on a percentage of the harvest.

Pancaratna das

> I have been contemplating this model for promoting cow protection and

> sustainable agriculture here in India. I believe that, if sufficient

initial

> capital is invested it is possible to make an economically viable system

> that will help Indian farmers move away from their current model of direct

> or indirect cow slaughter.

>

> I agree that Srila Prabhupada was promoting something much simpler for the

> devotees. I am thinking of this more for those marginal devotees in India

,

> who are still hankering so much for material development that they turn a

> blind eye to the fact that the old cows and bulls they sell to the muslims

> end up slaughtered.

>

> And for the city-dwelling vegetarians everywhere who could support this

> system. It is a compromise with Srila Prabhupada's pure vision for

> varnashram, but I believe it may help in the transition.

>

> However, it is all theoretical right now. Some hard work, looking at the

> numbers, researching the market and experimenting is needed. If there are

> people ready to do this and come up with a workable business plan I

believe

> there are people, at least in INdia, who would finance it.

Comment:

We have a small congregation of locals (27 families) and support from some

Indian families scattered across the southern States. Due to a prolonged

period of drought, three years, with twenty-five inches below normal

rainfall per annum, our plight is noticed. We have just received a donation

from ISKCON FOUNDATION to the amount of five thousand dollars. On the 16th

of this month, we will be putting on a COW GALA program of dance, plays and

various other social functions in an effort to raise funds to cover the

purchasing of hay and to erect a hay barn that was destroyed by arson in

'97.

Due to the efforts of a group of devotees, who managed and worked at a

privately owned artwork business (Touchstone Designs), they have

accomplished the task of covering the mortgage on temple properties. Along

with occasional donations to cover taxes, when New Talavan was unable and

even managed to make regular donations to cover some day to day expenses of

the cows and Deities.

ys, Rohita dasa

February 2, 2001

> I love Prabhupada's vision. Personaly, I fall far

> short of it. The thing is I am not putting forward his

> vision. I'm saying with a 10% veg population there

> should be a farming system to support it. This is

> inevitable. Prabhupada's version is great, but how

> many of us are doing it, and will do it? Yet all sorts

> of people can do Protection Farms as a business. It's

> a half-way option. Better than nought.

Ok I understand now. I thought you were suggesting that we cant realise

Prabhupadas vision. I agree that we all have to do what we can. The only

thing that is sensitive in this issue is that if there is failure, the cows

are not the loosers.

> How many businesses can survive today if efficiency

> and profit are not focussed. Believe me I love the

> idea of everyone working just enough, but I live in

> the year 2001, and it aint like that mate. Get real,

> me, you, everyone.

Krsna Consciousness can be enacted on all sorts of levels, and as we move

through life, we get various realisations and changes occur. I understand

what you are saying. All I am saying is that I dont think ISKCON should give

up on Prabhupadas vision for the full blown varnasrama concept. Its true

that we are not seeing it happen, and I know many that would be appalled if

we tried to make it happen (sadly), but there are devotees out there who

have realy bought into the idea, and want to make it happen. I wouldn't

write it off yet.

We could all go to isolated

> communities and live THE life, been there done it,

> loved it, left it, now got kid and wife in city,

> difficult to leave them behind. For those who can't

> what's wrong with the next-best option, except that

> it's not THE best option?

Agreed.

> Sorry I'm so brash. To do with frustrated attachments

> I believe.

It's ok, it just took me a while to realise what you were saying. It seems

that getting the figures you need might not be that easy. Most of our places

are not strong on record keeping.

YS Samba das

February 3, 2001

Thank you Prabhu.

> Ok I understand now. I thought you were suggesting

> that we cant realise

> Prabhupadas vision. I agree that we all have to do

> what we can. The only

> thing that is sensitive in this issue is that if

> there is failure, the cows

> are not the loosers.

We're all losers here, except those with nothing to

lose at the foot of the Lord, as we'd say.

My point here is that at this moment thousands of farm

animals are having 6 inch nolts shot their brains,

equating to millions in a day. Their destiny is seen.

The ISKCON model is so far different to the present

reality that a commercial model of cow protection is

so damned obviously a better vision than the present

one that of course it needs to be reality.

I get more than cheesed off at devotees who are so

puritanical that only the best option is worth the

effort. Bumcumb. The Gita, Prabhupada, anyone with any

scence will say do the next best option. It doesn't

mean to drop the best option, but on the way the next

best can be done too.

All I am saying is that I dont

> think ISKCON should give

> up on Prabhupadas vision for the full blown

> varnasrama concept.

I have not written off the ISKCON vision, but let's do

Protection Farms too, someone else will and not to our

standards. To continually deride a profit-orientated

version of cow protection is to shoot one in ones own

foot. It is so much better than the meat model, and

not as good as Prabhupada's, yet it is food in the

mode of goodness, maybe a little passion and

ignorance, but a lot better than at the moment.

And what happens if it fails - the animals go to

slaughter, but at least we tried. And I do say this

whimsically. I have a child and if I can't make a

living we're on the street, but I would break my back

to not get there. And the same with Prtection Farms,

which is why it needs careful planning, the one thing

ISKCON never did, and still has not done. I'm sure if

I was presented with details of ISKCON plans for cow

protection I could take it to pieces for its

inadaquacies. I did with the Hinduja project, there

was absolutely no bottom up, nuts and bolts analysis

of the farming system. It was one of those 'take care

of the cows and all will look after itself'. Rubbish.

We have to use our heads, plan, take it to pieces, add

water, if it leaks plan some more. Network, double

network, formulate, get a business model and plan,

raise capital, be efficient, creative, look for niche

markets, opportunities.

It seems

> that getting the figures you need might not be that

> easy. Most of our places

> are not strong on record keeping.

Exactly, for this, the lack of planning, chaotic

management, and the ideological blinker that cow

protection is not for profit, this is why ISKCON has

no clear movement in one of its central tenats and has

constantly derided my approach, which is why I have

been so reluctant to approach ISKCON. Now after the

secular groups have put the break on me, I am

returning to ISKCON with a very agressive approach. I

wantto kick this into gear.

Please devotees help me in my endeavour.

Mark

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February 3, 2001