Cowherd-friendly communities

January 11, 2004

Wishing you all success with your Madhuvan model- but, as you know it takes

a lot of capital to put even a sustainable community to start functioning.

Say that you have the funds, so how long will it take for your project to

sustain itself, as per you plans?/ Or is the support of the Vaishya's needed

always?

In one of the lectures Srila Prabhupada says that "No one needs to go out of

the land, all the needs are provided for" - Is this practical??

Y/s Jai Chaitanya

Samba (das) SDG [samba.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:21 PM

Noma T. Petroff; Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com

Cc: iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net; Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com; Cow (Protection and

related issues)

Cowherd-friendly communities

> If you have a copy of the Prabhupada Varnasrama book, you should read

> Prabhupada's Geneva conversation of June 6, 1974, "Every Man Should Own

> Some Land." Even this very phrase of Srila Prabhupada's embodies an

> important essence of Vaisya nature.

What we are trying to do here, as some devotees have advised is to set up a

core of very renounced devotees/brahmanas who form the core of the

community.

There are several options for our land, one of them being that we take a

long lease on it and then parcel it out to devotees to develop.

We are thinking of following the model of Auroville in south india, in the

sense that you can take some land, and you can create a simple living

project, pottery, basket making etc, but also grow your own vegetables, and

help the other families to produce grains, oil, flax etc. We keep the

products within the community, and sell of excess for cash requirements.

Prabhupada said in respect to the hyderbad farm that the everything they

produce is used by them, and then he says, it is all the property of Krsna

Balaram. Interesting huh! You use it, but you know that it belongs to Krsna

Balaram.

You can build on the land, (within certain requirements and restrictions),

and we will all help to build. If you want to leave you can take any

removable assets that you have brought, but you cannot take any fixed

assets, the house and other fixed assets are the property of Madhuvan, but

are in your care for as long as you are there. Also as is common with

agricultural leases, if you have land under your care but are not utilising

it, it can be taken away for another to use.

If someone wants to be more independant, they are welcome to purchase

neighboring land and cooperate with us.

> You probably won't be able to follow this in detail, but the more you can

> accommodate vaisya nature, the more successful your plan will be --

> because the vaisyas will find fulfillment instead of frustration. What

> they want more than anything is to expand and develop a program -- not to

> be told what to do.

What we are trying to do is to reach consensus in our community management.

No all powerful bosses. We will be picky who can join us, we need people who

want to put Krsna and Srila Prabhupadas instructions at the forefront of

their lives. People who are happy with less, and who are prepared to engage

in ongoing study how to create a village according to Srila Prabhupadas

indications. There is room for a vaisya to excell, but he needs to recognise

the ultimate proprietor. We are trying to follow the lead made by Dhanesvara

prabhu in his paper on Spiritual economics.

YS Samba das

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

January 20, 2004

Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

> [Original Message]

> JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>

> Noma T. Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>

> Cc: <iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net>; <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection

and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> 1/11/2004 12:40:05 PM

> RE: Cowherd-friendly communities

>

> Wishing you all success with your Madhuvan model- but, as you know it

takes

> a lot of capital to put even a sustainable community to start functioning.

> Say that you have the funds, so how long will it take for your project to

> sustain itself, as per you plans?/ Or is the support of the Vaishya's

needed

> always?

> In one of the lectures Srila Prabhupada says that "No one needs to go out

of

> the land, all the needs are provided for" - Is this practical??

>

> Y/s Jai Chaitanya

In these times at least in America I do not feel this is a reality. Each

day technology becomes more advanced and most of the world moves further

away from simple living. If you are living simply you will need to obtain

some money to just survive. You can barter or trade for only a small amount

of your needs. And most expensive of all-if you have health needs that

can't be taken care of by your own resources of herbs, etc. and you must

seek out a hospital the cost will put you in dept for the rest of your life

if you do not have health insurance which is expensive or comes with a

regular karmi job of hours 9-5 at least 5 days a week.

Then there is your children. For those who do not have children this may

not have been considered. If your child grows up and does not desire to be

a poor brahmin dependent on others he/she must get an education to support

themsleves and future dependents. Most persons do not fit into the

brahminical class and /or do not have trust in outr society to take care of

them. There is also the fact that there is no infrastructure for them to

fit into within our society unless they want to be a poor brahmin living in

the temple. The responsibility of the parent is to prepare the child for

real life so that they can survive besides the responsibility to give them

Krsna consciousness even if they do not absorb it sufficiently. So here is

another real expense that needs money.

Prabhupada has often mentioned that householders should be the ones to

begin a community based on cow protection and agriculture and varnasrama

principles. Thye are the ideal residents/participants. Such an atmosphere

is very child friendly and healthy for a child. It appears the biggest

challenge is how do householder couples survive in such a community without

being gone for most of the time to earn money for survival or eventually

leaving because they can not take care of basic needs or any emergencies

that may aise.

I often thought that in another country it would be easier and one could

live more easily and trade and barter for necessities. But now even in some

of the farthest reaches of the world the money economy has encroached to

some extent and is further increasing. When Pancaharatna Prabhu took us to

visit a Gosh village (a long history of taking care of cows for

generations) in Navadwip we found that even in this remote village money

was an issue. For instance: when a daugher gets married they may sell a cow

since they do not have cash to pay for the wedding. Or if someone is sick

they may sell a cow to pay for health care. They are poor in currency and

need it for what their culture and necessity dictates.

So what to do? I do agree with Ekabhuddhi that if Prabhupada was here now

we might hear different statements then we heard years back about how to

survive in this day and age. This does not negate the ideal. Time place and

circumstances. How do we adjust the ideal within present day circumstances

with as little deviance from the ideal as possible?

>

> Samba (das) SDG [samba.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

> Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:21 PM

> Noma T. Petroff; Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com

> Cc: iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net; Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com; Cow (Protection and

> related issues)

> Cowherd-friendly communities

>

> > If you have a copy of the Prabhupada Varnasrama book, you should read

> > Prabhupada's Geneva conversation of June 6, 1974, "Every Man Should Own

> > Some Land." Even this very phrase of Srila Prabhupada's embodies an

> > important essence of Vaisya nature.

>

> What we are trying to do here, as some devotees have advised is to set up

a

> core of very renounced devotees/brahmanas who form the core of the

> community.

>

> There are several options for our land, one of them being that we take a

> long lease on it and then parcel it out to devotees to develop.

>

> We are thinking of following the model of Auroville in south india, in the

> sense that you can take some land, and you can create a simple living

> project, pottery, basket making etc, but also grow your own vegetables,

and

> help the other families to produce grains, oil, flax etc. We keep the

> products within the community, and sell of excess for cash requirements.

> Prabhupada said in respect to the hyderbad farm that the everything they

> produce is used by them, and then he says, it is all the property of Krsna

> Balaram. Interesting huh! You use it, but you know that it belongs to

Krsna

> Balaram.

>

> You can build on the land, (within certain requirements and restrictions),

> and we will all help to build. If you want to leave you can take any

> removable assets that you have brought, but you cannot take any fixed

> assets, the house and other fixed assets are the property of Madhuvan, but

> are in your care for as long as you are there. Also as is common with

> agricultural leases, if you have land under your care but are not

utilising

> it, it can be taken away for another to use.

>

> If someone wants to be more independant, they are welcome to purchase

> neighboring land and cooperate with us.

>

> > You probably won't be able to follow this in detail, but the more you

can

> > accommodate vaisya nature, the more successful your plan will be --

> > because the vaisyas will find fulfillment instead of frustration. What

> > they want more than anything is to expand and develop a program -- not

to

> > be told what to do.

>

> What we are trying to do is to reach consensus in our community

management.

> No all powerful bosses. We will be picky who can join us, we need people

who

> want to put Krsna and Srila Prabhupadas instructions at the forefront of

> their lives. People who are happy with less, and who are prepared to

engage

> in ongoing study how to create a village according to Srila Prabhupadas

> indications. There is room for a vaisya to excell, but he needs to

recognise

> the ultimate proprietor. We are trying to follow the lead made by

Dhanesvara

> prabhu in his paper on Spiritual economics.

>

> YS Samba das

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

January 20, 2004

It takes a lot of guts to put out a straightforward answer like that.

One of the biggest vulnerabilities, as pointed out below, is the

healthcare problem. A number of countries do have universal health

care. It would be good to hear what it's like for them when this is

taken care of.

ys

hkdd

ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) wrote:

>In these times at least in America I do not feel this is a reality. Each

>day technology becomes more advanced and most of the world moves further

>away from simple living. If you are living simply you will need to obtain

>some money to just survive. You can barter or trade for only a small amount

>of your needs. And most expensive of all-if you have health needs that

>can't be taken care of by your own resources of herbs, etc. and you must

>seek out a hospital the cost will put you in dept for the rest of your life

>if you do not have health insurance which is expensive or comes with a

>regular karmi job of hours 9-5 at least 5 days a week.

>

>Then there is your children. For those who do not have children this may

>not have been considered. If your child grows up and does not desire to be

>a poor brahmin dependent on others he/she must get an education to support

>themsleves and future dependents. Most persons do not fit into the

>brahminical class and /or do not have trust in outr society to take care of

>them. There is also the fact that there is no infrastructure for them to

>fit into within our society unless they want to be a poor brahmin living in

>the temple. The responsibility of the parent is to prepare the child for

>real life so that they can survive besides the responsibility to give them

>Krsna consciousness even if they do not absorb it sufficiently. So here is

>another real expense that needs money.

>

>Prabhupada has often mentioned that householders should be the ones to

>begin a community based on cow protection and agriculture and varnasrama

>principles. Thye are the ideal residents/participants. Such an atmosphere

>is very child friendly and healthy for a child. It appears the biggest

>challenge is how do householder couples survive in such a community without

>being gone for most of the time to earn money for survival or eventually

>leaving because they can not take care of basic needs or any emergencies

>that may aise.

>

>I often thought that in another country it would be easier and one could

>live more easily and trade and barter for necessities. But now even in some

>of the farthest reaches of the world the money economy has encroached to

>some extent and is further increasing. When Pancaharatna Prabhu took us to

>visit a Gosh village (a long history of taking care of cows for

>generations) in Navadwip we found that even in this remote village money

>was an issue. For instance: when a daugher gets married they may sell a cow

>since they do not have cash to pay for the wedding. Or if someone is sick

>they may sell a cow to pay for health care. They are poor in currency and

>need it for what their culture and necessity dictates.

>

>So what to do? I do agree with Ekabhuddhi that if Prabhupada was here now

>we might hear different statements then we heard years back about how to

>survive in this day and age. This does not negate the ideal. Time place and

>circumstances. How do we adjust the ideal within present day circumstances

>with as little deviance from the ideal as possible?

>

January 21, 2004

Balabhadra prabhu has given us a reality check for 2004+ cow protection and

rural communites.

ys syam

January 22, 2004

Right. Srila Prabhupada wants us to live simply. Medical insurance in

USA may be a problem. In UK its not (NHS) but I lived 20 yrs in USof A

and never dreamed of paying health insurance. Of course temple devotees

dont have income so if you have to get operated upon you go to the County

Hospital along with drug addicts etc but that should not be a problem as

some good doctors work there too...Both Gauri and Ram Das from New Dwarka

went there. And devotees can learn all about herbs and preventive medicine

very successfully so that the need for the conventional medical

establishment can be virtually nil. I never went to an allopathic doctor

in 40 yrs. Grhastas who have an income would need insurance so then

the cowherd families need support from the rest of our society. How

about a Trust for funding cowherd families set up by ISCOWP? All the

devotees I'm sure would be willing to give donations. so that if they

cannot keep a cow another devotee family can. on behalf of everyone,

your servant labangalatika dasi

-

Hrimati (dd) ACBSP (Mayapur - IN) <Hrimati.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

<Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; Noma T. Petroff

Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:21 AM

Cowherd-friendly communities

> > > He himself was only equipped with his books that he wrote himself and

the

> message of Krishna.

> Even as a householder he tried to make his own medicines etc.

> Even though the cowherds may seem to do a "low class" occupation, but if

it

> was not for them, than who else will take care of the mother cows? Without

> that good milk what are the Brahmins going to drink?

> looking at the picture as a whole and of course being practical, that is

> what Srila Prabhupada wanted.

> Everyone that has a modern occupation in the karmic society can still do

> cow protection by supporting the hard-working cow herds so they can take

> care of the matajis (cows) and the pitajis (bulls and oxen). This is the

> only way this ideal idea that Srila Prabhupada has given us, can continue

> nicely.

> Not like in Mexico, that the cows have to suffer, because someone thinks

> that he has to go to a different Guru or join the "Gopi bhava

> club"...anyway, I don't want to get into that. If you do not start

> shoveling cow dung what is the meaning of Gopi anyway...;-)

>

> Do not feel bad Balabhadra Prabhu, you are doing a great job. your outside

> job is taking care of your families and your cows. I think that is

> important. You have such a nice family, all engaged in cow protection.

>

> Hoping this will meet you in the very best of health by the grace of

> Krishna.

>

> Your humble servant,

> Hrimati dasi

>

> Please visit our Vaishnava family-friendly Website

> http://www.gopalsofttoys.com

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

January 22, 2004

Could ISCOWP set up a trust to support cowherd families. Most devotees

would be willing to give donations if they cannot keep a cow themselves to

help another family to do so. You could start at New Vrajadham with

another family to help .

-

ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

<Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; Noma T. Petroff

Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

Tuesday, January 20, 2004 5:20 PM

RE: Cowherd-friendly communities

>

> Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

>

> > [Original Message]

> > JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>

> > Noma T. Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>

> > Cc: <iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net>; <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection

> and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> > 1/11/2004 12:40:05 PM

> > RE: Cowherd-friendly communities

> >

> > Wishing you all success with your Madhuvan model- but, as you know it

> takes

> > a lot of capital to put even a sustainable community to start

functioning.

> > Say that you have the funds, so how long will it take for your project

to

> > sustain itself, as per you plans?/ Or is the support of the Vaishya's

> needed

> > always?

> > In one of the lectures Srila Prabhupada says that "No one needs to go

out

> of

> > the land, all the needs are provided for" - Is this practical??

> >

> > Y/s Jai Chaitanya

>

> In these times at least in America I do not feel this is a reality. Each

> day technology becomes more advanced and most of the world moves further

> away from simple living. If you are living simply you will need to obtain

> some money to just survive. You can barter or trade for only a small

amount

> of your needs. And most expensive of all-if you have health needs that

> can't be taken care of by your own resources of herbs, etc. and you must

> seek out a hospital the cost will put you in dept for the rest of your

life

> if you do not have health insurance which is expensive or comes with a

> regular karmi job of hours 9-5 at least 5 days a week.

>

> Then there is your children. For those who do not have children this may

> not have been considered. If your child grows up and does not desire to

be

> a poor brahmin dependent on others he/she must get an education to

support

> themsleves and future dependents. Most persons do not fit into the

> brahminical class and /or do not have trust in outr society to take care

of

> them. There is also the fact that there is no infrastructure for them to

> fit into within our society unless they want to be a poor brahmin living

in

> the temple. The responsibility of the parent is to prepare the child for

> real life so that they can survive besides the responsibility to give them

> Krsna consciousness even if they do not absorb it sufficiently. So here is

> another real expense that needs money.

>

> Prabhupada has often mentioned that householders should be the ones to

> begin a community based on cow protection and agriculture and varnasrama

> principles. Thye are the ideal residents/participants. Such an atmosphere

> is very child friendly and healthy for a child. It appears the biggest

> challenge is how do householder couples survive in such a community

without

> being gone for most of the time to earn money for survival or eventually

> leaving because they can not take care of basic needs or any emergencies

> that may aise.

>

> I often thought that in another country it would be easier and one could

> live more easily and trade and barter for necessities. But now even in

some

> of the farthest reaches of the world the money economy has encroached to

> some extent and is further increasing. When Pancaharatna Prabhu took us to

> visit a Gosh village (a long history of taking care of cows for

> generations) in Navadwip we found that even in this remote village money

> was an issue. For instance: when a daugher gets married they may sell a

cow

> since they do not have cash to pay for the wedding. Or if someone is sick

> they may sell a cow to pay for health care. They are poor in currency and

> need it for what their culture and necessity dictates.

>

> So what to do? I do agree with Ekabhuddhi that if Prabhupada was here now

> we might hear different statements then we heard years back about how to

> survive in this day and age. This does not negate the ideal. Time place

and

> circumstances. How do we adjust the ideal within present day circumstances

> with as little deviance from the ideal as possible?

>

> >

> > Samba (das) SDG [samba.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

> > Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:21 PM

> > Noma T. Petroff; Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com

> > Cc: iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net; Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com; Cow (Protection and

> > related issues)

> > Cowherd-friendly communities

> >

> > > If you have a copy of the Prabhupada Varnasrama book, you should read

> > > Prabhupada's Geneva conversation of June 6, 1974, "Every Man Should

Own

> > > Some Land." Even this very phrase of Srila Prabhupada's embodies an

> > > important essence of Vaisya nature.

> >

> > What we are trying to do here, as some devotees have advised is to set

up

> a

> > core of very renounced devotees/brahmanas who form the core of the

> > community.

> >

> > There are several options for our land, one of them being that we take a

> > long lease on it and then parcel it out to devotees to develop.

> >

> > We are thinking of following the model of Auroville in south india, in

the

> > sense that you can take some land, and you can create a simple living

> > project, pottery, basket making etc, but also grow your own vegetables,

> and

> > help the other families to produce grains, oil, flax etc. We keep the

> > products within the community, and sell of excess for cash requirements.

> > Prabhupada said in respect to the hyderbad farm that the everything they

> > produce is used by them, and then he says, it is all the property of

Krsna

> > Balaram. Interesting huh! You use it, but you know that it belongs to

> Krsna

> > Balaram.

> >

> > You can build on the land, (within certain requirements and

restrictions),

> > and we will all help to build. If you want to leave you can take any

> > removable assets that you have brought, but you cannot take any fixed

> > assets, the house and other fixed assets are the property of Madhuvan,

but

> > are in your care for as long as you are there. Also as is common with

> > agricultural leases, if you have land under your care but are not

> utilising

> > it, it can be taken away for another to use.

> >

> > If someone wants to be more independant, they are welcome to purchase

> > neighboring land and cooperate with us.

> >

> > > You probably won't be able to follow this in detail, but the more you

> can

> > > accommodate vaisya nature, the more successful your plan will be --

> > > because the vaisyas will find fulfillment instead of frustration.

What

> > > they want more than anything is to expand and develop a program -- not

> to

> > > be told what to do.

> >

> > What we are trying to do is to reach consensus in our community

> management.

> > No all powerful bosses. We will be picky who can join us, we need people

> who

> > want to put Krsna and Srila Prabhupadas instructions at the forefront of

> > their lives. People who are happy with less, and who are prepared to

> engage

> > in ongoing study how to create a village according to Srila Prabhupadas

> > indications. There is room for a vaisya to excell, but he needs to

> recognise

> > the ultimate proprietor. We are trying to follow the lead made by

> Dhanesvara

> > prabhu in his paper on Spiritual economics.

> >

> > YS Samba das

> >

> > -----------------------

> > To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

January 22, 2004

The difficulty is not in setting up a trust it is in acquiring the

funds/donations for the trust. The concept for a trust has been suggested

and discussed for a few years now and nothing has happened.

Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

> [Original Message]

> Rosalie Malik <labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net>

> JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; Noma T. Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>;

> Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

> 1/22/2004 12:50:03 PM

> Re: Cowherd-friendly communities

>

> Could ISCOWP set up a trust to support cowherd families. Most devotees

> would be willing to give donations if they cannot keep a cow themselves

to

> help another family to do so. You could start at New Vrajadham with

> another family to help .

> -

> ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; Noma T. Petroff

> <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

> <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> Tuesday, January 20, 2004 5:20 PM

> RE: Cowherd-friendly communities

>

> >

> > Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

> >

> > > [Original Message]

> > > JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>

> > > Noma T. Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>

> > > Cc: <iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net>; <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection

> > and related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> > > 1/11/2004 12:40:05 PM

> > > RE: Cowherd-friendly communities

> > >

> > > Wishing you all success with your Madhuvan model- but, as you know it

> > takes

> > > a lot of capital to put even a sustainable community to start

> functioning.

> > > Say that you have the funds, so how long will it take for your project

> to

> > > sustain itself, as per you plans?/ Or is the support of the Vaishya's

> > needed

> > > always?

> > > In one of the lectures Srila Prabhupada says that "No one needs to go

> out

> > of

> > > the land, all the needs are provided for" - Is this practical??

> > >

> > > Y/s Jai Chaitanya

> >

> > In these times at least in America I do not feel this is a reality. Each

> > day technology becomes more advanced and most of the world moves further

> > away from simple living. If you are living simply you will need to

obtain

> > some money to just survive. You can barter or trade for only a small

> amount

> > of your needs. And most expensive of all-if you have health needs that

> > can't be taken care of by your own resources of herbs, etc. and you must

> > seek out a hospital the cost will put you in dept for the rest of your

> life

> > if you do not have health insurance which is expensive or comes with a

> > regular karmi job of hours 9-5 at least 5 days a week.

> >

> > Then there is your children. For those who do not have children this may

> > not have been considered. If your child grows up and does not desire to

> be

> > a poor brahmin dependent on others he/she must get an education to

> support

> > themsleves and future dependents. Most persons do not fit into the

> > brahminical class and /or do not have trust in outr society to take care

> of

> > them. There is also the fact that there is no infrastructure for them to

> > fit into within our society unless they want to be a poor brahmin living

> in

> > the temple. The responsibility of the parent is to prepare the child for

> > real life so that they can survive besides the responsibility to give

them

> > Krsna consciousness even if they do not absorb it sufficiently. So here

is

> > another real expense that needs money.

> >

> > Prabhupada has often mentioned that householders should be the ones to

> > begin a community based on cow protection and agriculture and varnasrama

> > principles. Thye are the ideal residents/participants. Such an

atmosphere

> > is very child friendly and healthy for a child. It appears the biggest

> > challenge is how do householder couples survive in such a community

> without

> > being gone for most of the time to earn money for survival or eventually

> > leaving because they can not take care of basic needs or any emergencies

> > that may aise.

> >

> > I often thought that in another country it would be easier and one could

> > live more easily and trade and barter for necessities. But now even in

> some

> > of the farthest reaches of the world the money economy has encroached to

> > some extent and is further increasing. When Pancaharatna Prabhu took us

to

> > visit a Gosh village (a long history of taking care of cows for

> > generations) in Navadwip we found that even in this remote village

money

> > was an issue. For instance: when a daugher gets married they may sell a

> cow

> > since they do not have cash to pay for the wedding. Or if someone is

sick

> > they may sell a cow to pay for health care. They are poor in currency

and

> > need it for what their culture and necessity dictates.

> >

> > So what to do? I do agree with Ekabhuddhi that if Prabhupada was here

now

> > we might hear different statements then we heard years back about how to

> > survive in this day and age. This does not negate the ideal. Time place

> and

> > circumstances. How do we adjust the ideal within present day

circumstances

> > with as little deviance from the ideal as possible?

> >

> > >

> > > Samba (das) SDG [samba.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

> > > Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:21 PM

> > > Noma T. Petroff; Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com

> > > Cc: iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net; Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com; Cow (Protection and

> > > related issues)

> > > Cowherd-friendly communities

> > >

> > > > If you have a copy of the Prabhupada Varnasrama book, you should

read

> > > > Prabhupada's Geneva conversation of June 6, 1974, "Every Man Should

> Own

> > > > Some Land." Even this very phrase of Srila Prabhupada's embodies an

> > > > important essence of Vaisya nature.

> > >

> > > What we are trying to do here, as some devotees have advised is to set

> up

> > a

> > > core of very renounced devotees/brahmanas who form the core of the

> > > community.

> > >

> > > There are several options for our land, one of them being that we

take a

> > > long lease on it and then parcel it out to devotees to develop.

> > >

> > > We are thinking of following the model of Auroville in south india, in

> the

> > > sense that you can take some land, and you can create a simple living

> > > project, pottery, basket making etc, but also grow your own

vegetables,

> > and

> > > help the other families to produce grains, oil, flax etc. We keep the

> > > products within the community, and sell of excess for cash

requirements.

> > > Prabhupada said in respect to the hyderbad farm that the everything

they

> > > produce is used by them, and then he says, it is all the property of

> Krsna

> > > Balaram. Interesting huh! You use it, but you know that it belongs to

> > Krsna

> > > Balaram.

> > >

> > > You can build on the land, (within certain requirements and

> restrictions),

> > > and we will all help to build. If you want to leave you can take any

> > > removable assets that you have brought, but you cannot take any fixed

> > > assets, the house and other fixed assets are the property of Madhuvan,

> but

> > > are in your care for as long as you are there. Also as is common with

> > > agricultural leases, if you have land under your care but are not

> > utilising

> > > it, it can be taken away for another to use.

> > >

> > > If someone wants to be more independant, they are welcome to purchase

> > > neighboring land and cooperate with us.

> > >

> > > > You probably won't be able to follow this in detail, but the more

you

> > can

> > > > accommodate vaisya nature, the more successful your plan will be --

> > > > because the vaisyas will find fulfillment instead of frustration.

> What

> > > > they want more than anything is to expand and develop a program --

not

> > to

> > > > be told what to do.

> > >

> > > What we are trying to do is to reach consensus in our community

> > management.

> > > No all powerful bosses. We will be picky who can join us, we need

people

> > who

> > > want to put Krsna and Srila Prabhupadas instructions at the forefront

of

> > > their lives. People who are happy with less, and who are prepared to

> > engage

> > > in ongoing study how to create a village according to Srila

Prabhupadas

> > > indications. There is room for a vaisya to excell, but he needs to

> > recognise

> > > the ultimate proprietor. We are trying to follow the lead made by

> > Dhanesvara

> > > prabhu in his paper on Spiritual economics.

> > >

> > > YS Samba das

> > >

> > > -----------------------

> > > To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> > > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

> >

> > -----------------------

> > To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

January 22, 2004

To clarify to all, it is I Chayadevi who wrote the text not Balabhadra. To

also clarify I was trying bring forth the concept that Jai Caitanya was

inquiring about-that is producing from the land/project a practical means

of livilhood so the project does not either fall about due to lack of some

income, residents leave or are forever dependent on donations.

I have found in my fundraising that the givers of substantial donations

want to know that they are helping to create something that will eventually

support itself or at least create some kind of income etc. so that they

won't continually be asked to give more doantions. Of course there are

exceptions to the rule but most persons want to see the child grow up and

take care of themselves. And they don't mind helping to achieve that goal.

If Jai Caitanya could give a little explanation of his project where he not

only protects cows but he has generated income from barren land and he has

educated and engaged local famers to produce organic produce and found them

markets for it. This is the discussion I was looking for. If Jai Caitanya

is traveling perhaps Labangalatika can give some description as she has

visited the project and knows more than I about it. Of course what Jai

Caitanya has done is not directly applicable in a western country but it

gives ideas and inspiration as to how one can care for cows and live from

the land in a practical way.

To me this is applicable simple living for the 21st century.

Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

> [Original Message]

> Rosalie Malik <labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net>

> JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; Noma T. Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>;

> Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

> 1/22/2004 12:50:03 PM

> Re: Cowherd-friendly communities

>

> Right. Srila Prabhupada wants us to live simply. Medical insurance in

> USA may be a problem. In UK its not (NHS) but I lived 20 yrs in USof A

> and never dreamed of paying health insurance. Of course temple devotees

> dont have income so if you have to get operated upon you go to the County

> Hospital along with drug addicts etc but that should not be a problem as

> some good doctors work there too...Both Gauri and Ram Das from New Dwarka

> went there. And devotees can learn all about herbs and preventive

medicine

> very successfully so that the need for the conventional medical

> establishment can be virtually nil. I never went to an allopathic doctor

> in 40 yrs. Grhastas who have an income would need insurance so

then

> the cowherd families need support from the rest of our society. How

> about a Trust for funding cowherd families set up by ISCOWP? All the

> devotees I'm sure would be willing to give donations. so that if they

> cannot keep a cow another devotee family can. on behalf of everyone,

> your servant labangalatika dasi

> -

> Hrimati (dd) ACBSP (Mayapur - IN) <Hrimati.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; Noma T. Petroff

> <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

> <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:21 AM

> Cowherd-friendly communities

>

> > > > He himself was only equipped with his books that he wrote himself

and

> the

> > message of Krishna.

> > Even as a householder he tried to make his own medicines etc.

> > Even though the cowherds may seem to do a "low class" occupation, but if

> it

> > was not for them, than who else will take care of the mother cows?

Without

> > that good milk what are the Brahmins going to drink?

> > looking at the picture as a whole and of course being practical, that is

> > what Srila Prabhupada wanted.

> > Everyone that has a modern occupation in the karmic society can still do

> > cow protection by supporting the hard-working cow herds so they can take

> > care of the matajis (cows) and the pitajis (bulls and oxen). This is the

> > only way this ideal idea that Srila Prabhupada has given us, can

continue

> > nicely.

> > Not like in Mexico, that the cows have to suffer, because someone thinks

> > that he has to go to a different Guru or join the "Gopi bhava

> > club"...anyway, I don't want to get into that. If you do not start

> > shoveling cow dung what is the meaning of Gopi anyway...;-)

> >

> > Do not feel bad Balabhadra Prabhu, you are doing a great job. your

outside

> > job is taking care of your families and your cows. I think that is

> > important. You have such a nice family, all engaged in cow protection.

> >

> > Hoping this will meet you in the very best of health by the grace of

> > Krishna.

> >

> > Your humble servant,

> > Hrimati dasi

> >

> > Please visit our Vaishnava family-friendly Website

> > http://www.gopalsofttoys.com

> >

> > -----------------------

> > To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

January 22, 2004

> In these times at least in America I do not feel this is a reality. Each

> day technology becomes more advanced and most of the world moves further

> away from simple living. If you are living simply you will need to obtain

> some money to just survive.

This is a fact. This is why we have emphasised that, as Srila Prabhupada

pointed out, subsidy is required. It cannot be done without subsidy. Since

Srila Prabhupada gave a direct order that this should be done, then it is an

ISKCON imperative. I see it as a burden of love, a bit like the Sri Mayapur

project. It needs to be subsidised for as long as it takes to establish

enough people to start to reach actual self sufficiency, which could take

decades.

Personaly I dont agree that Srila Prabhupada would have changed his mind, if

anything, seeing how the society is becoming crazier by the day, I feel he

would have emphasised it more! However we are all entitled to our

opinions:-}

Here in New Vrajamandala we have paid for land, lots of it. So here a lot of

the burden is removed. Actualy there are many people even in the UK who are

learning to eke out a living on the land, using very little money. Kripamoya

prabhu gave me a book which was an eye opener for me in this regard about

what is happening over there. A book that was supported by some British

MP's, and was addressed to professional planners. The desire to live simply

from the land is going mainstream.

Being a poor brahmana, I thought that was the goal? I thought we were all

supposed to give up our desire for material things, and become simple and

dependant on Krsna! We will have to do it at some point if we are to go back

home, so why not start now! But sure it is an incremental thing, it takes a

lot of time.

As far as children are concerned, who are they? They are also spirit souls

who are in illusion. We must remember that we should love them on that

basis. No one is supposed to be a parent etc, if he cant deliver his

children. These are facts. Not that there is a guarantee that they will be

delivered by us, the idea is that we just have to strive for that ideal. We

just dont know when they will wake up and see the reality. Maybe this life

maybe the next.

Yes they may blame us for denying them material facility, what to do? We

must pray that they will obtain enlightenment. Why should we guarantee their

illusion? Due to circumstance I was brought up in a broken family, and I got

what I got, no point in crying about it. The family was broken because my

parents followed their desires. At least as devotees we should act for REAL

benefit.

>It appears the biggest

> challenge is how do householder couples survive in such a community

> without being gone for most of the time to earn money for survival or

> eventually leaving because they can not take care of basic needs or any

> emergencies that may aise.

Many years ago I visited the ailing Vaisalya community and one of the things

that I was told that destroyed the community was the fact that the grihastas

departed early each morning for the nearbye town to work. So this is true.

But as far as *basic* needs are concerned, this is a matter of

interpretation. Some say a car is a personal basic need (and I wont deny

that in some circumstances it is). If everyone is bound by that conception,

then I dont think they will get very far in simple life. Yes a car is needed

for many years, but not that we all have to have one. There are many

communities where several adults share a car.

Not many devotees are prepared to live really simply, but there are many

people who are, and we hope to attract them. We dont want to force, we want

to seek those who volunteer.

> This does not negate the ideal. Time place

> and circumstances. How do we adjust the ideal within present day

> circumstances with as little deviance from the ideal as possible?

It is very very difficult no doubt. Right now it is impossible for us to

avoid giving our kids a government approved education. I was inspired by the

Amish who were prepared to go to Jail to protect their right to educate

their children the way they beleived was right. Of course we are a long way

away from making that kind of stand. The journey of a thousand miles, starts

with the first step...

On the very last days of his time with us, when he was lying on his death

bed, what did Srila Prabhupada choose to say?... (read it slowly!)

"If we live with good association then we cultivate knowledge therefore we

should always seek good association. If we have a chance of association with

devotees our character and nature is improved. By hearing Srimad Bhagavatam

this raja guna and tama guna are subdued and sattva guna remains. nasta

prayesu abadresu nityam bhagavata sevaya, then raja guna, tama guna cannot

do us harm. Therefore Varnasrama Dharma is *so essential*, that people

*live* in sattva guna. Tama guna, raja guna increases lust and greediness

and that implicates the living entity that exists in this material world in

many many forms. That is very dangerous therefore they should be brought

into sattva guna by the establishment of Varnasrama Dharma."

I find it very relevent that with his last few translating breaths, he chose

to say this.

I am reminded of an exchange he had with one Sanyasi who wanted to throw the

grihastas out of the skyscraper New York Temple. The Sanyasi was saying that

we dont know what the Grihastas are doing in the rooms, how can they be

allowed to live in the Temple building? Srila Prabhupada kept on insisting

that they should stay, saying that we have spent many gallons of spiritual

blood to make them into devotees, if they are made to live outside we may

loose them. This was more important than the possibility that they might do

something sinful in their rooms. Such compassion! So Prabhupada warns that

we need to stick to association with our own people as much as possible, in

that way we can come to the mode of goodness. He ties that with Varnasrama

dharma which starts with farm community...live, worship, work and learn

together. Its all part of a package.

Trying to do this cerca 2004 is certainly difficult, but we are advised to

shoot for the Rhinocerous. We really want to try to do this, we are middle

aged devotees who have been through all that this world and ISKCON can throw

at you, and we need all the help and support we can get. Please in whatever

way you can help us to fulfill this desire of Srila Prabhupada.

Your servant

Samba das

www.madhuvan.org

January 23, 2004

Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances.

Regarding the points on the position of children presented by Samba Prabhu:

*Who are they?* Children are indeed spritit souls. Often, though, we are in

a greater illusion than they are. I remember when my son was a baby, I was

living a realization that if everyone did live with the protection, care and

upliftment of children in mind, the whole world would automatically be very,

very mode of goodness. Examples: simple needs met in an simple way...

considering the benefit of the whole over the individual... the importance of

familial and societal structure... cleanliness... quiet and complete

silence...

wholesome food, environment, recreation, relationships... doing the needfull

exactly when it needs to be done... attachment to Krishna and His devotees

(including the child)... detachment from anything that detracts from their

(including the child's) service... humility... self-examination and

self-correction... constant evolution toward self-realization and Krishna

consciousness...

and being Responsible.

*Love them on that basis*: Children need to be loved on any and every basis.

Delivering the child means supplying everything that the child needs to be

safe, happy, and inspired to want to be a devotee. The child is not a

"recruit" to be preached to, coerced, tricked, compared to a warped concept of

"perfection" or false "good devotee-ness." Children are not sannyasis,

brahmacaris,

or vanaprasthas. They are just starting their lives, not renouncing the

world. If the child sees the parent safe, happy, and inspired in Kc and the

parent

facilitates such a life for the child, the child will know and trust both

Krishna and the parent their whole life. If the child doesn't feel truly

loved,

the child will not trust the parent, or the parent's instructions about

Krishna.

*Material facility*: Material facility is different than material enjoyment

or the desire for it. If children are taught how to use any situation for

their own or others' advancement than no material situation will be a

hindrance.

If they have seen models of true renunciation - in the sense that whatever it

is, it belongs to Krishna - than they will always be perfectly situated.

Their are many examples of perfect Vaishnavas in our literatures who were

royal,

powerful, etc.

*Wake up, see reality, obtain enlightenment*: These are perfect instructions

for our self-preaching or for "lion gurus" to expound upon, but it seems to

me the kids won't be feeling a lot of the "unconditional love" that Krishna has

for us and that we are supposed to have for them if we take that line of

instruction.

I am not trying to criticize the point of self-sufficiency with any of these

thoughts. We don't do TV, videos, electronic, motorized, plastic,

distractive, commercialized toys or brand name anything with our son. We do

live simply,

austerely, with minimal distraction. I know the day may come when our son

gets interested in style, career, girls. This is also natural. There are very

nice grown Vaishnava youth (and Prabhupada disciples) who are very stylish,

are entrepeneurs, and have great marriages and children. Although to some

devotees, it may seem like they're in "maya", but from their own words and

actions

we can see that they love Krishna very much and dedicate everything to Him.

It seems to me that when we try to project our own need for austerity,

renunciation, etc. onto the child, it is in the mundane attachment/aversion

sense.

Our own austerity, etc. is great and required. To show the child by our own

example is great and required. I even think the motives and methods touched

on in the letter were fine. Perhaps just the understanding behind them is a

bit askew.

Please forgive my offenses and the length of this.

Kalavati devi dasi

January 23, 2004

> Hare Krishna. Please accept my humble obeisances.

>

> Regarding the points on the position of children presented by Samba

> Prabhu:

As syamasundara prabhu mentioned, my text was quite lengthy and I was trying

to touch on a number of points. I agree entirely with your analysis, and I

guess it seemed that my brief treatment of the subject made it seem as if I

was not considering these things.

My son is nearly 10. Eleven years ago, he was someone else. He comes to my

family with a certain baggage of Karma. We love him very much, and he is a

very happy kid. The ways of karma are mysterious, sometimes no matter how

much one wants to do good for ones kid, karma gets in the way.

Recognising this, we dont intend to mould our lives around some false

expectations for him or us. We all have to act according to our convictions,

and ours are based on faith in Srila Prabhupadas instructions regarding

Krsna's mercy. I am 45, and have been in the movement since I was 16, and I

have no illusions about upbringing in Krsna Consciousness, I have seen so

many kids growing in our society, and how they turn out.

According to his astrology, he will take Krsna Consciousness seriously when

he is in his 40's, great! So we are not expecting a little Dhruva Maharaja

here. We will bring him up as comfortably as we can, but we wont be going

out of our way to meet his demands for excessive material facility.

Thank you for your concern.

January 23, 2004

Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

> [Original Message]

> Syamasundara (das) (Bhaktivedanta Manor - UK)

>

> My reading of Srila Prabhupadas letters indicates a variety of cow

> protection models. Some of which follow:

>

> 1. A buiseness from cow protection with the profits used for Gurukula.

>

> 2. A self sufficient lifestyle for all asramas and particularly primarily

> brahmacaris, vanaprasthas and sanyasis.

>

> 3. Huge goshallas supported and managed by the gujarati and marwari

> communites.

>

> In other words we may be more beficial to the society by actually

> establishing liveable cowprotection models of any description (as long as

> they are actually protecting cows-I am assuming it is understood over

> generations of cows and not just when the first few years of milk comes).

>

> If there are models of self relience and simple life for householders

> (hungarian farm for example) fantastic our society needs them. If there

are

> large well maintained goshallas established, fantastic, our society needs

> them. If the Brahmacaris' vanaprasthas and sanyasis adopt a simple

lifestyle

> and are satisfied with living off the land, fantastic, our society needs

> them. If there is a successful buiseness established were the cows are

fully

> protected and there is profit, fantastic, our society needs them.

>

> The point I am making is that conversion to a particular method is better

> from the point of being succesful rather than from a position of hopeful

> idealism.

>

> Just some brief points to consider

>

> ys syam

It seems that I have pushed some buttons which was not my intention but I

don't think any harm has been done. What Syamsundara has written is what i

was trying to say, he said it better than I without pushing buttons.

The service that Krsna has given us has brought me constantly in the

company of non devotees, devotees who ask many questions and doubt that

this self-sufficiency cow protection ideal can be practically applied in

the 21st century, potential and steady donors who also have doubts that

this is practical and how are we going to make it happen. So, I have to be

contantly examining how to bring this vison of Srila Prabhupada to those

who do not have the same austere lifestyle, the same renunciation, the same

commitment, etc. The commets i gave were not ones of my own conviction.

They were what I hear all around me in my efforts to bring this vision into

a practical form so that others can experience the joys it brings. Anyone

who knows us knows that. My children have been working since they were 12

years old to acquire anything they needed. We could give them very little

not kowing where the next penny would come from. In some cases our children

were supporting us. Their higher education was gotten by working jobs and

going to school and getting scholorships. I haven't been off the farm in 4

months since there is no vehicle I can drive. Etc. etc, etc. There is more

but that should clarify.

I have long ago come to the conclusion that i should not expect others to

think and feel like myself and that if i really want to help Prabhupada and

other devotees I must realize that most others cannot and will not take

this vision up if they have to live like me. I can tell you of many

instances where I have been told just that by devotees who were attracted

to country life and thought they could handle taking care of one cow but

the thought of having to go through all the austerities they have seen me

go through turned them off to it.

It would be easy to say (and I have said this in the past) that tough on

them-they don't have what it takes to do it, they are not fixed up enough,

etc. But I have come to see that there are many different ways that many

different people can interact in this vision. Their interaction may not be

as mine is, but that does not make it any less or any more. Srila

Prabhupada's vision is much larger than that.

There is a saying "Seeing is believing". For most seeing a working example

that is successful, that they can fit into or can duplicate is what they

need to move ahead and get involved. Not everyone has the strong conviction

and commitment of many of the devotees on this conference. But that does

not mean they can not have a role and do something substantial for the same

vision. I am really concerned about widening the circle of participants in

this vision because I really do believe that Srial Prabhupada meant to do

that when he brought forth the concept of varnasrama. The suggestions that

Syamsundara has brought forth widens that possibility. As he has said the

key word is successful. It works.

The number of ISKCON farms and the number of cows protected within ISKCON

has greatly reduced in the last 10 to 15 years. It would be great to turn

that around. Syamasundara, can you tell us something about the Hungarian

farm since you mentioned them as an example? If there are any Hungarain

devotees on the conference we would appreciate your comments also.

January 24, 2004

one thing that could be looked into for health insurance, if it is wanted.

Is to get a group plan, under the umbrella of a non-profit. rates should be

less.

January 24, 2004

Srila Prabhupada says in purport SB 3 25 13 " Any kind of happiness one

has is contaminated by distress also. For example if we want to drink milk

then we have to bother to maintain a cow and keep her fit to supply milk.

Drinking milk is very nice; it is also pleasure, But for the sake of

drinking milk one has to accept so much trouble..."

So devotees who want to drink milk should feel obliged to keep a cow or

support those who will keep cows on their behalf. This is the

responsibility of all devotees to protect cows and the oxen. Even if they

are entrepreneurs etc they can give a percentage of wealth for the sake

of cow protection and cowherds , As for bringing up kids in simple living

which they may not like, You may want them to have a college education so

they have opportunities but if they dont get to drink pure milk and have

pure foodstuffs then what is meaning of such opportunities and since

without cow protection there is no hope of human civilisation, their

future is anyhow not assured.

ys labangaltika

-

Iscowp <iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net>

Rosalie Malik <labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net>; JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; Noma

T. Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>; <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>

Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

Thursday, January 22, 2004 10:42 PM

Re: Cowherd-friendly communities

> To clarify to all, it is I Chayadevi who wrote the text not Balabhadra. To

> also clarify I was trying bring forth the concept that Jai Caitanya was

> inquiring about-that is producing from the land/project a practical means

> of livilhood so the project does not either fall about due to lack of some

> income, residents leave or are forever dependent on donations.

>

> I have found in my fundraising that the givers of substantial donations

> want to know that they are helping to create something that will

eventually

> support itself or at least create some kind of income etc. so that they

> won't continually be asked to give more doantions. Of course there are

> exceptions to the rule but most persons want to see the child grow up and

> take care of themselves. And they don't mind helping to achieve that goal.

>

> If Jai Caitanya could give a little explanation of his project where he

not

> only protects cows but he has generated income from barren land and he has

> educated and engaged local famers to produce organic produce and found

them

> markets for it. This is the discussion I was looking for. If Jai Caitanya

> is traveling perhaps Labangalatika can give some description as she has

> visited the project and knows more than I about it. Of course what Jai

> Caitanya has done is not directly applicable in a western country but it

> gives ideas and inspiration as to how one can care for cows and live from

> the land in a practical way.

>

> To me this is applicable simple living for the 21st century.

>

> Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

>

> > [Original Message]

> > Rosalie Malik <labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net>

> > JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; Noma T. Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>;

> <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>

> > Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

> <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> > 1/22/2004 12:50:03 PM

> > Re: Cowherd-friendly communities

> >

> > Right. Srila Prabhupada wants us to live simply. Medical insurance

in

> > USA may be a problem. In UK its not (NHS) but I lived 20 yrs in USof

A

> > and never dreamed of paying health insurance. Of course temple

devotees

> > dont have income so if you have to get operated upon you go to the

County

> > Hospital along with drug addicts etc but that should not be a problem

as

> > some good doctors work there too...Both Gauri and Ram Das from New

Dwarka

> > went there. And devotees can learn all about herbs and preventive

> medicine

> > very successfully so that the need for the conventional medical

> > establishment can be virtually nil. I never went to an allopathic

doctor

> > in 40 yrs. Grhastas who have an income would need insurance so

> then

> > the cowherd families need support from the rest of our society. How

> > about a Trust for funding cowherd families set up by ISCOWP? All the

> > devotees I'm sure would be willing to give donations. so that if they

> > cannot keep a cow another devotee family can. on behalf of everyone,

> > your servant labangalatika dasi

> > -

> > Hrimati (dd) ACBSP (Mayapur - IN) <Hrimati.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> > <Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; Noma T. Petroff

> > <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> > Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

> > <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

> > Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:21 AM

> > Cowherd-friendly communities

> >

> > > > > He himself was only equipped with his books that he wrote himself

> and

> > the

> > > message of Krishna.

> > > Even as a householder he tried to make his own medicines etc.

> > > Even though the cowherds may seem to do a "low class" occupation, but

if

> > it

> > > was not for them, than who else will take care of the mother cows?

> Without

> > > that good milk what are the Brahmins going to drink?

> > > looking at the picture as a whole and of course being practical, that

is

> > > what Srila Prabhupada wanted.

> > > Everyone that has a modern occupation in the karmic society can still

do

> > > cow protection by supporting the hard-working cow herds so they can

take

> > > care of the matajis (cows) and the pitajis (bulls and oxen). This is

the

> > > only way this ideal idea that Srila Prabhupada has given us, can

> continue

> > > nicely.

> > > Not like in Mexico, that the cows have to suffer, because someone

thinks

> > > that he has to go to a different Guru or join the "Gopi bhava

> > > club"...anyway, I don't want to get into that. If you do not start

> > > shoveling cow dung what is the meaning of Gopi anyway...;-)

> > >

> > > Do not feel bad Balabhadra Prabhu, you are doing a great job. your

> outside

> > > job is taking care of your families and your cows. I think that is

> > > important. You have such a nice family, all engaged in cow protection.

> > >

> > > Hoping this will meet you in the very best of health by the grace of

> > > Krishna.

> > >

> > > Your humble servant,

> > > Hrimati dasi

> > >

> > > Please visit our Vaishnava family-friendly Website

> > > http://www.gopalsofttoys.com

> > >

> > > -----------------------

> > > To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> > > Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

>

January 24, 2004

Good idea. Never thought of that.

Visit us at: www.iscowp.org

> [Original Message]

> <Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com>

> ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA) <ISCOWP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

<Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>;

> Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

> 1/23/2004 9:30:04 PM

> Re: Cowherd-friendly communities

>

> one thing that could be looked into for health insurance, if it is

wanted.

> Is to get a group plan, under the umbrella of a non-profit. rates should

be

> less.

January 27, 2004

Some years ago the police at the Haryana check point which is on the road

from Vrindaban to Delhi called ISKCON Vrindaban and asked them if they

would take charge of 200 bulls they had confiscated from illegal transport

to slaughterhouse . They refused as they couldnt take care of them.

Ialways felt this was the worst shame. that devotees couldnt manage this

request. Of course you all may say it would be mad to take this

responsibility but we should realise we are on a war footing today

and if such a challenge comes we must respond. even tho it seems

impossible. because for Krsna nothing is impossible. People would really

rally behind that too and tremendous support would come from locals in

Vrindaban. and life members and Maneka Gandhi would have helped to place

them for sure.

There is a Bill for total ban on cow ( and bull) slaughter in all India

which may get passed if this BJP Govt wins the next election with a

majority and this also so far seems likely. BUT enforcing it is another

matter because the police are so corrupt at all levels that nothing

will happen. So if this police at Haryana did his job properly and

confiscated the truck loads going to illegal slaughter and on illegal

transport then what kind of signal did he get from ISCKON who could not

help him do his job? Then when again if ever will he attempt to stop cow

slaughter ? He will have seen its hopeless.

However difficult first its necessary to save them .. If we are

approached directly it is our duty to take it up. Try telling this to the

GBC.

Wedo have to act urgently to protect cows and maintain cowherds

ys labangalatika

Samba (das) SDG <Samba.SDG (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

<Dasgopal (AT) aol (DOT) com>; JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; Noma T. Petroff

Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

Thursday, January 22, 2004 11:10 PM

RE: Cowherd-friendly communities

> > In these times at least in America I do not feel this is a reality. Each

> > day technology becomes more advanced and most of the world moves further

> > away from simple living. If you are living simply you will need to

obtain

> > some money to just survive.

>

> This is a fact. This is why we have emphasised that, as Srila Prabhupada

> pointed out, subsidy is required. It cannot be done without subsidy. Since

> Srila Prabhupada gave a direct order that this should be done, then it is

an

> ISKCON imperative. I see it as a burden of love, a bit like the Sri

Mayapur

> project. It needs to be subsidised for as long as it takes to establish

> enough people to start to reach actual self sufficiency, which could take

> decades.

>

> Personaly I dont agree that Srila Prabhupada would have changed his mind,

if

> anything, seeing how the society is becoming crazier by the day, I feel he

> would have emphasised it more! However we are all entitled to our

> opinions:-}

>

> Here in New Vrajamandala we have paid for land, lots of it. So here a lot

of

> the burden is removed. Actualy there are many people even in the UK who

are

> learning to eke out a living on the land, using very little money.

Kripamoya

> prabhu gave me a book which was an eye opener for me in this regard about

> what is happening over there. A book that was supported by some British

> MP's, and was addressed to professional planners. The desire to live

simply

> from the land is going mainstream.

>

> Being a poor brahmana, I thought that was the goal? I thought we were all

> supposed to give up our desire for material things, and become simple and

> dependant on Krsna! We will have to do it at some point if we are to go

back

> home, so why not start now! But sure it is an incremental thing, it takes

a

> lot of time.

>

> As far as children are concerned, who are they? They are also spirit souls

> who are in illusion. We must remember that we should love them on that

> basis. No one is supposed to be a parent etc, if he cant deliver his

> children. These are facts. Not that there is a guarantee that they will be

> delivered by us, the idea is that we just have to strive for that ideal.

We

> just dont know when they will wake up and see the reality. Maybe this life

> maybe the next.

>

> Yes they may blame us for denying them material facility, what to do? We

> must pray that they will obtain enlightenment. Why should we guarantee

their

> illusion? Due to circumstance I was brought up in a broken family, and I

got

> what I got, no point in crying about it. The family was broken because my

> parents followed their desires. At least as devotees we should act for

REAL

> benefit.

>

> >It appears the biggest

> > challenge is how do householder couples survive in such a community

> > without being gone for most of the time to earn money for survival or

> > eventually leaving because they can not take care of basic needs or any

> > emergencies that may aise.

>

> Many years ago I visited the ailing Vaisalya community and one of the

things

> that I was told that destroyed the community was the fact that the

grihastas

> departed early each morning for the nearbye town to work. So this is true.

> But as far as *basic* needs are concerned, this is a matter of

> interpretation. Some say a car is a personal basic need (and I wont deny

> that in some circumstances it is). If everyone is bound by that

conception,

> then I dont think they will get very far in simple life. Yes a car is

needed

> for many years, but not that we all have to have one. There are many

> communities where several adults share a car.

>

> Not many devotees are prepared to live really simply, but there are many

> people who are, and we hope to attract them. We dont want to force, we

want

> to seek those who volunteer.

>

> > This does not negate the ideal. Time place

> > and circumstances. How do we adjust the ideal within present day

> > circumstances with as little deviance from the ideal as possible?

>

> It is very very difficult no doubt. Right now it is impossible for us to

> avoid giving our kids a government approved education. I was inspired by

the

> Amish who were prepared to go to Jail to protect their right to educate

> their children the way they beleived was right. Of course we are a long

way

> away from making that kind of stand. The journey of a thousand miles,

starts

> with the first step...

>

> On the very last days of his time with us, when he was lying on his death

> bed, what did Srila Prabhupada choose to say?... (read it slowly!)

>

> "If we live with good association then we cultivate knowledge therefore we

> should always seek good association. If we have a chance of association

with

> devotees our character and nature is improved. By hearing Srimad

Bhagavatam

> this raja guna and tama guna are subdued and sattva guna remains. nasta

> prayesu abadresu nityam bhagavata sevaya, then raja guna, tama guna cannot

> do us harm. Therefore Varnasrama Dharma is *so essential*, that people

> *live* in sattva guna. Tama guna, raja guna increases lust and greediness

> and that implicates the living entity that exists in this material world

in

> many many forms. That is very dangerous therefore they should be brought

> into sattva guna by the establishment of Varnasrama Dharma."

>

> I find it very relevent that with his last few translating breaths, he

chose

> to say this.

>

> I am reminded of an exchange he had with one Sanyasi who wanted to throw

the

> grihastas out of the skyscraper New York Temple. The Sanyasi was saying

that

> we dont know what the Grihastas are doing in the rooms, how can they be

> allowed to live in the Temple building? Srila Prabhupada kept on insisting

> that they should stay, saying that we have spent many gallons of spiritual

> blood to make them into devotees, if they are made to live outside we may

> loose them. This was more important than the possibility that they might

do

> something sinful in their rooms. Such compassion! So Prabhupada warns that

> we need to stick to association with our own people as much as possible,

in

> that way we can come to the mode of goodness. He ties that with Varnasrama

> dharma which starts with farm community...live, worship, work and learn

> together. Its all part of a package.

>

> Trying to do this cerca 2004 is certainly difficult, but we are advised to

> shoot for the Rhinocerous. We really want to try to do this, we are middle

> aged devotees who have been through all that this world and ISKCON can

throw

> at you, and we need all the help and support we can get. Please in

whatever

> way you can help us to fulfill this desire of Srila Prabhupada.

>

> Your servant

> Samba das

>

> www.madhuvan.org

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

January 27, 2004

Rosalie Malik wrote:

>Some years ago the police at the Haryana check point which is on the road

>from Vrindaban to Delhi called ISKCON Vrindaban and asked them if they

>would take charge of 200 bulls they had confiscated from illegal transport

>to slaughterhouse . They refused as they couldnt take care of them.

>Ialways felt this was the worst shame. that devotees couldnt manage this

>request.

>

As you know, I'm not shy about criticizing the Vrndavan goshalla. But

in this case, according to what Srila Prabhupada has said, I do believe

that they did the proper thing to refuse these animals.

As noted earlier, Srila Prabhupada said that "we are not in the business

of accepting old cows" and that the devotees should not accept animals

-- unless the donor was prepared to give several thousand rupees to

provide for their lifetime maintenance.

So, in this case, the devotees were exactly following Srila Prabhupada's

instructions, and I believe that they did the right thing.

It is not ISKCON to blame, but the government, if they pass a law -- but

provide no *practical* means of enforcement.

Just as in the US, also in India, politicians will pass laws based on

sentiment -- even though they have no practical plans to implement them.

The blame is the governments, not ISKCON's.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

January 27, 2004

In a message dated 1/27/04 10:11:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,

labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net writes:

> what kind of signal did he get from ISCKON who could not

> help him do his job? Then when again if ever will he attempt to stop cow

> slaughter ? He will have seen its hopeless.

>

Extremely excellent point. But 200 bulls is a lot of bulls. Seems like a

dung product would be the only thing self-supportive. and then where is the

available land? food?

This makes for an extremely interesting topic, why not write an article

looking for feedback, suggestions? ekaB

January 27, 2004

In a message dated 1/27/04 11:30:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,

npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu writes:

>

> The blame is the governments, not ISKCON's.

>

So yes, a good point THEY should have had a plan. BUt they don't. Perhaps

Iskcon could take the lead in coming up with a plan for them?? The exercise in

brainstorming could possibly help us form our own plan.

January 29, 2004

[This message was in HTML format]

Lavangalatika Prabhu and her husband Prakash truly put their money where

their mouth is.

They have undertaken to purchase 100 acres which they will use to accomodate

any cattle that may be saved from slaughter.

If the ISKCON leaders had any sort of commitment with their resources and

manpower , there could be many more shelters, in India, than just Kurma Rupa

Prabhu's here in Vrindavan and Labangala's and Prakash potential one.

In fact the dung ,over time , could pay for the entire project.

Good suggestion Eka buddhi Prabhu-- there is an article here---

Lavangalaji? if you could possibly manage the time !

There are certainly cases in point that you know well of.( Rajasthan Go seva--

Mysore etc.)

Nirguna

-

Ekabuddh (AT) aol (DOT) com

Tuesday, January 27, 2004 10:20 pm

Re: Cowherd-friendly communities

> In a message dated 1/27/04 10:11:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net writes:

>

> > what kind of signal did he get from ISCKON who could not

> > help him do his job? Then when again if ever will he attempt

> to stop cow

> > slaughter ? He will have seen its hopeless.

> >

>

> Extremely excellent point. But 200 bulls is a lot of bulls.

> Seems like a

> dung product would be the only thing self-supportive. and then

> where is the

> available land? food?

> This makes for an extremely interesting topic, why not write an

> article

> looking for feedback, suggestions? ekaB

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

> .

January 29, 2004

SB Canto 1 ch4 v 9

The birth of Maharaj Pariksit is wonderful because in the womb of his mother

he was protected by the Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna. His activities

are also wonderful because he chastised Kali who was attempting to kill a

cow. To kill cows means to end human civilisation. He wanted to protect

the cow from being killed by the great representative of sin. ( Srila

Prabhupada's purport)

Srila Prabhupada had said not to accept donations of old cows unless the

donor gave a lot of money for maintenance. These were not donations of old

cows , but young bulls on their way to be brutally killed at a

slaughterhouse. There were some letters published in ISCOWP newsletter

about how animal slaughter leads to the holocaust. We are all victims

of the butchers. They are very powerful and out to totally wipe out

brahminical culture/ Srila Prabhupada has said that nature will take

revenge so the whole human society is in great danger. During the

holocaust wouldnt you have tried to help innocent people and not said its

the governments job? Cows are even more dear to the Lord . Cow

protection means stopping cow slaughter closing slaughterhouses as well as

establishing devotee farms. It is our duty. Of course ISKCON wasnt

prepared for that appeal, but it should be. Such a big and wealthy

orgainsation should cooperate with other panjarapoles if it cant esablish

its own in the rescue of the cattle wealth. How can you say that the

government shouldnt pass laws out of sentiment? Is a total ban on cow

slaughter sentiment? Its due to pass. Or the law that there should be

pnly 4 cows in a truck instead of 40 ( making it unprofitable for

butchers). Its up to the people to implement the laws and devotees to

preach . Trouble is criminal nexus between police and meat mafia , very

dangerous people to cross. The times are urgent. Even in America one can

campaign against the slaughterhouses. A lot of people dont like cruelty but

they need to be made aware about their meat.

We are purchasing 100 acres for cows to be saved from slaughter. It will

go very slowly.

ys labangalatika dasi

-

Noma Petroff <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

Cc: JC <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and

related issues) <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Tuesday, January 27, 2004 9:46 PM

Re: Cowherd-friendly communities

> Rosalie Malik wrote:

>

> >Some years ago the police at the Haryana check point which is on the

road

> >from Vrindaban to Delhi called ISKCON Vrindaban and asked them if

they

> >would take charge of 200 bulls they had confiscated from illegal

transport

> >to slaughterhouse . They refused as they couldnt take care of them.

> >Ialways felt this was the worst shame. that devotees couldnt manage this

> >request.

> >

> As you know, I'm not shy about criticizing the Vrndavan goshalla. But

> in this case, according to what Srila Prabhupada has said, I do believe

> that they did the proper thing to refuse these animals.

>

> As noted earlier, Srila Prabhupada said that "we are not in the business

> of accepting old cows" and that the devotees should not accept animals

> -- unless the donor was prepared to give several thousand rupees to

> provide for their lifetime maintenance.

>

> So, in this case, the devotees were exactly following Srila Prabhupada's

> instructions, and I believe that they did the right thing.

>

> It is not ISKCON to blame, but the government, if they pass a law -- but

> provide no *practical* means of enforcement.

>

> Just as in the US, also in India, politicians will pass laws based on

> sentiment -- even though they have no practical plans to implement them.

>

> The blame is the governments, not ISKCON's.

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

January 29, 2004

This is most encouraging. What I have observed in Iskcon is that some

humble, sincere devotees break their backs on a project, and then a "big shot"?

comes in as "spiritual advisor"? and reaps the promotional benefits. Let's not

let that happen.

THose with the integrity and drive to do these projects should reap all the

benefits.

This alone will inspire others to follow suit......including the gbc.

obeisances eka

January 31, 2004

Yes cow dung is the most important factor. There isnt enough cow dung in

India at present to fertilise farm land for orgfainic farming. Big

trouble ahead. This is why its practical as well as "sentimental" to

rescue bulls and cows from slaughter. Cattle wealth is a fact.

-

<labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net>; <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>;

Cc: <Kalavatidevi108 (AT) aol (DOT) com>; Cow (Protection and related issues)

Tuesday, January 27, 2004 10:10 PM

Re: Cowherd-friendly communities

> In a message dated 1/27/04 10:11:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net writes:

>

> > what kind of signal did he get from ISCKON who could not

> > help him do his job? Then when again if ever will he attempt to stop

cow

> > slaughter ? He will have seen its hopeless.

> >

>

> Extremely excellent point. But 200 bulls is a lot of bulls. Seems like a

> dung product would be the only thing self-supportive. and then where is

the

> available land? food?

> This makes for an extremely interesting topic, why not write an article

> looking for feedback, suggestions? ekaB

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

February 14, 2004

DEar Ekabuddhi

pamho agtSP

This is not a proper article as such but better than nothing.

Keeping 200 bulls is not a foolish proposition. Gobar is the best and

cheapest fertiliser. There is not enough gobar in India to fertilise the

available farm land due to ever increasing rate of slaughter over the

last 20 years or so. This will lead to mass starvation.

The state of Maharastra has read the writing on the wall and has just

switched over to organic and sustainable farming as a government policy

after decades of subsidising chemical fertilisers and pesticides and

brain washing farmers. Now its hard to persuade them to change again.

In Jaipur the Rajasthan Goseva Sangh used to earn a miserable RS 15000

a.year by selling milk but now they earn 30 lakhs rupees by selling vermi

compost in 3 kilo bags and by their manufacture of cow urine medicines. We

also make vermi compost and sell it... the market is unlimited and plus we

use it ourselves . I dont know how the market in USA would be for vermi

compost . I just remember seeing big bags of steer manure at the garden shop

of supermarket or the feed store. Composting may be hard in cold winter.

An underground gobar gas plant might work as we have here. Those

digesters that cost a million dollars should not be necessary.

Without the infratrucure the devotees felt it impossible to accept the

bulls but at such a time Maneka Gandhi, environment minister as of then

and animal rights activist would definitely have stepped in and helped

place them. . It was an emergency. But the infrastructure should be in

place and ISKCON should be leading by example how to save the cows and

bulls and how to utilise gobar, which is more valuable than gold.

your servant Labangaltika dasi

-

<labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net>; <jnk (AT) blr (DOT) vsnl.net.in>; <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>;

Tuesday, January 27, 2004 10:10 PM

Re: Cowherd-friendly communities

> In a message dated 1/27/04 10:11:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> labangalatika (AT) vsnl (DOT) net writes:

>

> > what kind of signal did he get from ISCKON who could not

> > help him do his job? Then when again if ever will he attempt to stop

cow

> > slaughter ? He will have seen its hopeless.

> >

>

> Extremely excellent point. But 200 bulls is a lot of bulls. Seems like a

> dung product would be the only thing self-supportive. and then where is

the

> available land? food?

> This makes for an extremely interesting topic, why not write an article

> looking for feedback, suggestions? ekaB

>

> -----------------------

> To from this mailing list, send an email to:

> Cow-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

February 14, 2004

Gobar gas in the US.

Couple of problems.

For the process to work it has to be fairly warm. In the winter, a major

portion of the gas has to be used to keep the digester warm enough. An

inefficiency.

I have the impression that most gobar gas is burned directly. On the scale

of US dairies, there is not enough use on the grounds for burning directly.

What they do is burn the gas for electricity and use the waste heat to heat

water. One problem that has held it back from wide spread acceptance is that

the gas itself is dirty, and they don't have an engine for burning it

properly yet.

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