Veganism vs Vegetarianism

August 13, 2001

Certainly, Aroon has presented a thoughtful letter. But the solution to the

problem is very complex. I do not believe that veganism offers a full answer.

Please see my comments below. I do not really know an easy answer to this

problem, but I there are difficulties with various approaches.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

************************

"ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" wrote:

> -

> Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com

> iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net

> Tuesday, July 31, 2001 1:41 AM

> Greetings

>

> Dear Balabhadra dasa

>

> Haribol

>

> My humble obiesance to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> ...The following article is expected to be published in several Indian

> weeklies

> within a few days.

>

> I introduced Dr. Gross to the congregation- & put these words together.

> please read on:

>

> Report filed by Aroon Kumar. Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com

>

> VEGANISM vs VEGETARIANISM:

>

> Most of us wish to be compassionate individuals, and some of us, as part of

> our goal to be compassionate eat only vegetarian foods. Many people who are

> vegetarian feel quite comfortable eating dairy products; since they believe

> there is no killing of an animal and assume that there is no cruelty involved

> in obtaining such animal products, as milk, cheese, yogurt, and ghee. Is this

> indeed true? A speaker at the Hari Om Temple suggested that there is great

> suffering associated with milk and other dairy products.

>

> You should have been at the Hari Om Temple ( Medinah) on Sunday july 22 ! Dr

> Steven Gross, who is the co- chair of the Illinois Humane PAC ( Political

> Action Committee) spoke eloquently on the subject of " Raising of Dairy cows

> in the USA". What an eye-opener! The gist of his speech follows. Read-on!!

>

> A cow by nature is a grazing animal, who needs to ingest huge quantities of

> grass, typically walking 4-5 miles during the day....

>

> ...Male calves are either killed within hours or a few days after birth and

> sold

> as "Bob" veal, usually for frozen dinners. Other male calves are raised for

> meat, and about a million plus male calves are raised for veal.

The first problem that I have with veganism is that although they believe they

are being compassionate to cows and bull calves, the vegan philosophy in itself

will not protect any cows, nor will it protect any bulls. Although veganism

decries how animals are treated, in itself, to be a vegan does not mean that

one

single cow or one single bull is protected and allowed to live a happy, natural

life. If we take the vegan philosophy to the extreme, if everyone on earth

became a vegan, it would mean that cows and bulls would be extinct, because

there

would be no "use" for them.

Certainly, not everyone is going to become a vegan so of course this won't

happen, but sometimes people become confused and think that veganism means

giving

cows and bulls their natural rights. It does not. Just like birth control or

even celibacy does not in itself protect children, it simply reduces the number

of children produced (by pious or impious means) -- similarly to be a vegan

does

not help give cows and bulls their natural rights, it simply reduces the number

of animals born (by reducing the commercial demand for their products).

Veganism by itself is not cow protection. We should not be confused about

that.

But, in our spiritual line, Srila Prabhupada directly stated -- numerous times

--

that cow protection is one of the two pillars of spiritual advancement. So

this

is my first problem with the vegan approach.

> ...What can we do to change this horrible situation? First, learn that there

> are

> much better sources of calcium than milk. The healthiest calcium sources are

> "greens and beans."

>

Calcium is only one of the nutrients milk provides. Srila Prabhupada informed

us

that milk is needed to build fine brain tissue, and scientists agree that in

the

lacto-vegetarian diet, milk is the only natural source of vitamin B12, which is

vital to nerve cell development. Without vitamin B12, over the course of

years,

nerve cells, including brain cells, gradually deteriorate. This can lead to

insanity and even death. In essence, modern science backs up Srila

Prabhupada's

claims that milk is needed to develop fine brain tissue for understanding

spiritual topics. On the other hand, there are some ways of producing

artificial

B12. But, if we say we want a *natural* diet, that diet needs to include milk

> Dr. Gross is a selfless individual & spends hours & hours for this " God¹s

> work" fighting for the mute & voiceless animals that share Mother Earth with

> us humans & are treated so very, very badly!

I'm sure Dr. Gross is a nice man and certainly well meaning -- but I wonder

whether he takes care of any cows and bulls himself. Does he actually show

anyone the value of these animals? Does he make any substantial contribution

or

do any substantial work to publicize programs that do protect cows and bulls?

If I had to name "selfless individuals who spend hours & hours for God's work

of

fighting for the voiceless animals -- I would have to name devotees like

Balabhadra and Chaya, Syamasundara, Rohita, and other ISKCON cowherds -- people

who are actually protecting cows and bulls and demonstrating their value to

society.

> My plea is that the Board of Trustees of ISKCON Bar ALL temples from making

> any prasad to be offered to the dieties other than from the ISKCON farms. I

> would even go a step further & suggest that ISKCON farms be established in

> every community to serve the milk supply for all Vaishnav's. Obviously at

> the ISKCON farms the cows are cared for & treated properly & are not destined

> for slaughter & above all the calves have a chance to live their lives out in

> peace. I for one would willingly pay twice or even more knowing that there is

> no cruelty involved. This should really be taken up as a business venture &

> sold as " CRUELTY FREE MILK".

In theory, this sounds good. But the sad truth is that ISKCON has not evolved

to

this stage. As leaders of ISKCON's Ministry for Cow Protection and Agriculture

have their hands full just trying to make sure that certain various ISKCON

farms

around the world will actually protect the cows that they have.

The fact is that many of the top leaders in ISKCON have no special commitment

to

cow protection. This is very sad. For example, one of the great leaders of

our

Vrndavana temple is Gopal Krsna Goswami, who is a very powerful man with a

great

many disciples and much influence. But for many years, the ISKCON Vrndavana

temple has been breeding 30 or more cows each year -- to such an extent that

there should now be nearly a thousand cows and bulls there right now. But

somehow, there are only about 150 cows and bulls at Vrndavana. And, they are

squeezed into a goshalla so small that they barely all have room to lie down at

night. It is very difficult to feed them all properly. Therefore ISKCON's

Ministry for Cow Protection strongly recommended to Vrndavan that it stop

producing more cows until it gets more land, and sets up a proper program to

train and work the bulls -- thus demonstrating their usefulness in society.

Unfortunately, this particular ISKCON leader is not at all interested, and has

made no effort to find out what happened to all the cows and bulls that

disappeared, nor does he care that Vrndavana temple is still breeding more and

more cows -- in spite of the Ministry for Cow Protection's advice to the

contrary.

So, this is just one example. Although Srila Prabhupada states that one cannot

be spiritually advanced without practicing cow protection, a great many of

ISKCON's leaders are not very diligent to see that cow protection standards are

followed. (And as far as I know, there is no other group that is diligent about

protecting cows either.) Protecting cows actually depends on setting up a

social

structure so that the small farmer can survive so that the cows and bulls will

be

czred for as a part of his family. That would mean developing Srila

Prabhupada's

varnasrama villages, but not many leaders are interested in the part of

Prabhupada's teachings which deal with village organization.

So, you see, in such a situation, it is very difficult for us to advocate

breeding more cows to supply "non-violent" milk to ISKCON temples. Breeding

more

cows starts with great enthusiasm -- but too often we have seen the bitterness

as

the cows and bulls get older -- and no one wants to pay to take care of them

any

more. Just like nectar in the beginning -- but just like poison in the end.

> I need direction from you Balabhadra Dasa, I would like to write to

>

> 1) All the Board of Trustees of Iskcon & make my plea

> 2) Write to the Iskcon farms

> 3) Write to BTG.

>

> There are probably 4-5 Million followers of Eastern Religions, professing

> Vegetarianism, in the USA . I feel quite confident that given the choice

> between the tainted cruel milk in the stores vs the pure clean & wholesome

> milk from Iskcon farms or others that are run by compassionate people, the

> buyers will opt for the latter.

The idea of large-scale production of "cruelty-free" milk for the capitalist

market place is also a complex topic -- and a practice which would have many

pitfalls. In the Mahabharat, Bhismadeva states that, "He who lives by selling

milk, will have to sink in hell." I have addressed the problem of the

commercial

dairy farmer in a BTG article in 1996 called "Why Commercial Dairies Can't Stop

Killing." The esssence is that the rule of capitalist production means that

(ceteris paribus) whoever can produce his product most cheaply will win the

market. Even if so-called "cruelty free" milk were sold, farmers would have

incentive to cheat on the quality of care given to the animals -- and who will

maintain counts to see that all the calves, especially the bull calves are

maintained?

> I await your experienced Counsel. Although I am an old staid man, yet it is

> hard for me to contain myself & see how many of us are duped into believing

> that drinking milk that is store bought is ok!

One point to remember here is that when no other milk is available, even Srila

Prabhupada offered store-bought milk to the Deity. I'm sure that you remember

the story of Krsna and the Putana witch. Although the demoness was trying to

kill Krsna, when Krsna destroyed her, he gave her great advancement -- rather

than sending her to hell as she deserved. Similarly, Krsna is not indifferent

to

the welfare of all the cows whose milk is offered to Him. He especially loves

the cows, thus if they are offering their milk to Krsna, they are sure to gain

spiritual advancement. This is an important factor which non-devotee vegans

will not be able to comprehend.

> I also realize you have a great task on your hands taking care of your 100

> acre farm & 26 cattle; as the " Adopt - cow" program elsewhere is your farm

> also have an arrangement like that? I think I could attempt to mobilize

> support from the Chicago community. So that some of your time could be freed

> up to lead in this endeavor!

>

> Hare Krishna

>

> Your humble servant

>

> Aroon ( Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com)

In all of this, it may seem that I am criticizing the vegans. In fact, I

believe

that they are very well-meaning and thoughtful individuals. And the problem

they

face is difficult to answer satisfactory in the present context. But I also

believe that their are a number of logical holes in their argument which make

it

hard for me to accept as is. On the other hand whatever the vegans and groups

like PETA can do to at least reduce animal cruelty is some good. But it is not

the complete answer.

Perhaps my statements will seem somewhat discouraging, but we have seen that

uninformed idealistic enthusiam about breeding cows can ultimately lead to

painful results that can injure and sometimes even kill the cows and bulls

under

our care, as well as tearing apart the communities where the cow abuse occurs.

Thus most of us who participate on the cow conference tend to be cautious.

Nevertheless, we do maintain positive hope. The biggest misunderstanding about

"cruelty free" milk, is that it is not simply a material product. It is

actually

a most valuable substance to offer to the Lord -- that is because it can only

be

produced by devotees who cooperate together. One version of that is at a place

like Balabhadra and Chaya's ISCOWP farm project. Many other devotees offer

their

support to them, thus they can nicely maintain cows and bulls who can produce

items to offer to Krsna. Krsna's not just getting the food, He's getting the

results of devotees working together to serve Him. Another example would be

the

various ISKCON farms around the world who do follow the standards of the ISKCON

Ministry for Cow Protection.

And, finally, the ideal goal for the future is that milk and ox-cultivated

grains

can be produced on small-scale family farms in self-sufficient Krsna conscious

varnasrama farming communities, according to Srila Prabhupada's vision.

Because,

really, to produce cruelty-free milk, one must create a society which will

properly train and care for cowherd families.

What would a great project be for the Chicago community? I believe it would be

to purchase some farmland and provide training for even a small number of young

couples to establish themselves there so they can worship Krsna, farm and take

care of small herds of cows. Then any surplus milk they produce beyond the

community's needs could be offered to the Deities of the Chicago temple. I

believe that you need to start small and have an emphasis on careful training

to

have a success. Best luck in your endeavor. May Krsna reward you by showing

you

the answer to your very tenderhearted concerns.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

August 14, 2001

Dear Aroon:

Please accept my respects, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I see that Chaya devi (Balabhadra's, good wife) has added your letters to

the cow conference.

I have received and have viewed the Cd you sent me, but due to preparations

for Janmastami and Vyasapuja I have been unable to send a reply sooner, I am

sorry for the delay.

This video of a slaughter house is indeed a very common thing in the western

world and is also becoming more common even in the holy dham of

Bharatavarsa. Has mataji suggest in her letter, perhaps one course you may

take is to establish a community of young couples - this may even be the

most practical thing for your area. At the present time I have been spending

much time researching in our literatures how Srila Prabhupada wanted us to

do this. Should you be interested in taking this path, I would even be

available to come and help establish something along this line or I can send

some guidance via e-mail which ever is the most needed.

ys, Rohita dasa

-

"Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

"Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

Monday, August 13, 2001 5:45 PM

Veganism vs Vegetarianism

> Certainly, Aroon has presented a thoughtful letter. But the solution to

the

> problem is very complex. I do not believe that veganism offers a full

answer.

> Please see my comments below. I do not really know an easy answer to this

> problem, but I there are difficulties with various approaches.

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

>

> ************************

>

> "ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" wrote:

>

> > -

> > Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com

> > iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net

> > Tuesday, July 31, 2001 1:41 AM

> > Greetings

> >

> > Dear Balabhadra dasa

> >

> > Haribol

> >

> > My humble obiesance to Srila Prabhupada.

> >

> > ...The following article is expected to be published in several Indian

> > weeklies

> > within a few days.

> >

> > I introduced Dr. Gross to the congregation- & put these words together.

> > please read on:

> >

> > Report filed by Aroon Kumar. Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com

> >

> > VEGANISM vs VEGETARIANISM:

> >

> > Most of us wish to be compassionate individuals, and some of us, as part

of

> > our goal to be compassionate eat only vegetarian foods. Many people who

are

> > vegetarian feel quite comfortable eating dairy products; since they

believe

> > there is no killing of an animal and assume that there is no cruelty

involved

> > in obtaining such animal products, as milk, cheese, yogurt, and ghee. Is

this

> > indeed true? A speaker at the Hari Om Temple suggested that there is

great

> > suffering associated with milk and other dairy products.

> >

> > You should have been at the Hari Om Temple ( Medinah) on Sunday july 22

! Dr

> > Steven Gross, who is the co- chair of the Illinois Humane PAC (

Political

> > Action Committee) spoke eloquently on the subject of " Raising of Dairy

cows

> > in the USA". What an eye-opener! The gist of his speech follows.

Read-on!!

> >

> > A cow by nature is a grazing animal, who needs to ingest huge quantities

of

> > grass, typically walking 4-5 miles during the day....

> >

> > ...Male calves are either killed within hours or a few days after birth

and

> > sold

> > as "Bob" veal, usually for frozen dinners. Other male calves are raised

for

> > meat, and about a million plus male calves are raised for veal.

>

> The first problem that I have with veganism is that although they believe

they

> are being compassionate to cows and bull calves, the vegan philosophy in

itself

> will not protect any cows, nor will it protect any bulls. Although

veganism

> decries how animals are treated, in itself, to be a vegan does not mean

that

> one

> single cow or one single bull is protected and allowed to live a happy,

natural

> life. If we take the vegan philosophy to the extreme, if everyone on

earth

> became a vegan, it would mean that cows and bulls would be extinct,

because

> there

> would be no "use" for them.

>

> Certainly, not everyone is going to become a vegan so of course this won't

> happen, but sometimes people become confused and think that veganism means

> giving

> cows and bulls their natural rights. It does not. Just like birth

control or

> even celibacy does not in itself protect children, it simply reduces the

number

> of children produced (by pious or impious means) -- similarly to be a

vegan

> does

> not help give cows and bulls their natural rights, it simply reduces the

number

> of animals born (by reducing the commercial demand for their products).

>

> Veganism by itself is not cow protection. We should not be confused about

> that.

> But, in our spiritual line, Srila Prabhupada directly stated -- numerous

times

> --

> that cow protection is one of the two pillars of spiritual advancement.

So

> this

> is my first problem with the vegan approach.

>

> > ...What can we do to change this horrible situation? First, learn that

there

> > are

> > much better sources of calcium than milk. The healthiest calcium sources

are

> > "greens and beans."

> >

>

> Calcium is only one of the nutrients milk provides. Srila Prabhupada

informed

> us

> that milk is needed to build fine brain tissue, and scientists agree that

in

> the

> lacto-vegetarian diet, milk is the only natural source of vitamin B12,

which is

> vital to nerve cell development. Without vitamin B12, over the course of

> years,

> nerve cells, including brain cells, gradually deteriorate. This can lead

to

> insanity and even death. In essence, modern science backs up Srila

> Prabhupada's

> claims that milk is needed to develop fine brain tissue for understanding

> spiritual topics. On the other hand, there are some ways of producing

> artificial

> B12. But, if we say we want a *natural* diet, that diet needs to include

milk

>

> > Dr. Gross is a selfless individual & spends hours & hours for this "

God¹s

> > work" fighting for the mute & voiceless animals that share Mother Earth

with

> > us humans & are treated so very, very badly!

>

> I'm sure Dr. Gross is a nice man and certainly well meaning -- but I

wonder

> whether he takes care of any cows and bulls himself. Does he actually

show

> anyone the value of these animals? Does he make any substantial

contribution

> or

> do any substantial work to publicize programs that do protect cows and

bulls?

>

> If I had to name "selfless individuals who spend hours & hours for God's

work

> of

> fighting for the voiceless animals -- I would have to name devotees like

> Balabhadra and Chaya, Syamasundara, Rohita, and other ISKCON cowherds --

people

> who are actually protecting cows and bulls and demonstrating their value

to

> society.

>

> > My plea is that the Board of Trustees of ISKCON Bar ALL temples from

making

> > any prasad to be offered to the dieties other than from the ISKCON

farms. I

> > would even go a step further & suggest that ISKCON farms be established

in

> > every community to serve the milk supply for all Vaishnav's. Obviously

at

> > the ISKCON farms the cows are cared for & treated properly & are not

destined

> > for slaughter & above all the calves have a chance to live their lives

out in

> > peace. I for one would willingly pay twice or even more knowing that

there is

> > no cruelty involved. This should really be taken up as a business

venture &

> > sold as " CRUELTY FREE MILK".

>

> In theory, this sounds good. But the sad truth is that ISKCON has not

evolved

> to

> this stage. As leaders of ISKCON's Ministry for Cow Protection and

Agriculture

> have their hands full just trying to make sure that certain various ISKCON

> farms

> around the world will actually protect the cows that they have.

>

> The fact is that many of the top leaders in ISKCON have no special

commitment

> to

> cow protection. This is very sad. For example, one of the great leaders

of

> our

> Vrndavana temple is Gopal Krsna Goswami, who is a very powerful man with a

> great

> many disciples and much influence. But for many years, the ISKCON

Vrndavana

> temple has been breeding 30 or more cows each year -- to such an extent

that

> there should now be nearly a thousand cows and bulls there right now. But

> somehow, there are only about 150 cows and bulls at Vrndavana. And, they

are

> squeezed into a goshalla so small that they barely all have room to lie

down at

> night. It is very difficult to feed them all properly. Therefore

ISKCON's

> Ministry for Cow Protection strongly recommended to Vrndavan that it stop

> producing more cows until it gets more land, and sets up a proper program

to

> train and work the bulls -- thus demonstrating their usefulness in

society.

> Unfortunately, this particular ISKCON leader is not at all interested, and

has

> made no effort to find out what happened to all the cows and bulls that

> disappeared, nor does he care that Vrndavana temple is still breeding more

and

> more cows -- in spite of the Ministry for Cow Protection's advice to the

> contrary.

>

> So, this is just one example. Although Srila Prabhupada states that one

cannot

> be spiritually advanced without practicing cow protection, a great many of

> ISKCON's leaders are not very diligent to see that cow protection

standards are

> followed. (And as far as I know, there is no other group that is diligent

about

> protecting cows either.) Protecting cows actually depends on setting up a

> social

> structure so that the small farmer can survive so that the cows and bulls

will

> be

> czred for as a part of his family. That would mean developing Srila

> Prabhupada's

> varnasrama villages, but not many leaders are interested in the part of

> Prabhupada's teachings which deal with village organization.

>

> So, you see, in such a situation, it is very difficult for us to advocate

> breeding more cows to supply "non-violent" milk to ISKCON temples.

Breeding

> more

> cows starts with great enthusiasm -- but too often we have seen the

bitterness

> as

> the cows and bulls get older -- and no one wants to pay to take care of

them

> any

> more. Just like nectar in the beginning -- but just like poison in the

end.

>

> > I need direction from you Balabhadra Dasa, I would like to write to

> >

> > 1) All the Board of Trustees of Iskcon & make my plea

> > 2) Write to the Iskcon farms

> > 3) Write to BTG.

> >

> > There are probably 4-5 Million followers of Eastern Religions,

professing

> > Vegetarianism, in the USA . I feel quite confident that given the choice

> > between the tainted cruel milk in the stores vs the pure clean &

wholesome

> > milk from Iskcon farms or others that are run by compassionate people,

the

> > buyers will opt for the latter.

>

> The idea of large-scale production of "cruelty-free" milk for the

capitalist

> market place is also a complex topic -- and a practice which would have

many

> pitfalls. In the Mahabharat, Bhismadeva states that, "He who lives by

selling

> milk, will have to sink in hell." I have addressed the problem of the

> commercial

> dairy farmer in a BTG article in 1996 called "Why Commercial Dairies Can't

Stop

> Killing." The esssence is that the rule of capitalist production means

that

> (ceteris paribus) whoever can produce his product most cheaply will win

the

> market. Even if so-called "cruelty free" milk were sold, farmers would

have

> incentive to cheat on the quality of care given to the animals -- and who

will

> maintain counts to see that all the calves, especially the bull calves are

> maintained?

>

> > I await your experienced Counsel. Although I am an old staid man, yet it

is

> > hard for me to contain myself & see how many of us are duped into

believing

> > that drinking milk that is store bought is ok!

>

> One point to remember here is that when no other milk is available, even

Srila

> Prabhupada offered store-bought milk to the Deity. I'm sure that you

remember

> the story of Krsna and the Putana witch. Although the demoness was trying

to

> kill Krsna, when Krsna destroyed her, he gave her great advancement --

rather

> than sending her to hell as she deserved. Similarly, Krsna is not

indifferent

> to

> the welfare of all the cows whose milk is offered to Him. He especially

loves

> the cows, thus if they are offering their milk to Krsna, they are sure to

gain

> spiritual advancement. This is an important factor which non-devotee

vegans

> will not be able to comprehend.

>

> > I also realize you have a great task on your hands taking care of your

100

> > acre farm & 26 cattle; as the " Adopt - cow" program elsewhere is your

farm

> > also have an arrangement like that? I think I could attempt to mobilize

> > support from the Chicago community. So that some of your time could be

freed

> > up to lead in this endeavor!

> >

> > Hare Krishna

> >

> > Your humble servant

> >

> > Aroon ( Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com)

>

> In all of this, it may seem that I am criticizing the vegans. In fact, I

> believe

> that they are very well-meaning and thoughtful individuals. And the

problem

> they

> face is difficult to answer satisfactory in the present context. But I

also

> believe that their are a number of logical holes in their argument which

make

> it

> hard for me to accept as is. On the other hand whatever the vegans and

groups

> like PETA can do to at least reduce animal cruelty is some good. But it

is not

> the complete answer.

>

> Perhaps my statements will seem somewhat discouraging, but we have seen

that

> uninformed idealistic enthusiam about breeding cows can ultimately lead to

> painful results that can injure and sometimes even kill the cows and bulls

> under

> our care, as well as tearing apart the communities where the cow abuse

occurs.

> Thus most of us who participate on the cow conference tend to be cautious.

>

> Nevertheless, we do maintain positive hope. The biggest misunderstanding

about

> "cruelty free" milk, is that it is not simply a material product. It is

> actually

> a most valuable substance to offer to the Lord -- that is because it can

only

> be

> produced by devotees who cooperate together. One version of that is at a

place

> like Balabhadra and Chaya's ISCOWP farm project. Many other devotees

offer

> their

> support to them, thus they can nicely maintain cows and bulls who can

produce

> items to offer to Krsna. Krsna's not just getting the food, He's getting

the

> results of devotees working together to serve Him. Another example would

be

> the

> various ISKCON farms around the world who do follow the standards of the

ISKCON

> Ministry for Cow Protection.

>

> And, finally, the ideal goal for the future is that milk and ox-cultivated

> grains

> can be produced on small-scale family farms in self-sufficient Krsna

conscious

> varnasrama farming communities, according to Srila Prabhupada's vision.

> Because,

> really, to produce cruelty-free milk, one must create a society which will

> properly train and care for cowherd families.

>

> What would a great project be for the Chicago community? I believe it

would be

> to purchase some farmland and provide training for even a small number of

young

> couples to establish themselves there so they can worship Krsna, farm and

take

> care of small herds of cows. Then any surplus milk they produce beyond

the

> community's needs could be offered to the Deities of the Chicago temple.

I

> believe that you need to start small and have an emphasis on careful

training

> to

> have a success. Best luck in your endeavor. May Krsna reward you by

showing

> you

> the answer to your very tenderhearted concerns.

>

> your servant,

>

> Hare Krsna dasi

>

August 14, 2001

I'm sorry -- I have Aroon's e-mail address wrong in my original letter. It

should be Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com (not Chalissa (AT) aol (DOT) com).

If Rohita prabhu is offering to lend his assistance to your endeavor, Aroon,

you should know this is a very valuable thing. He is a true brahmana, the very

sort Srila Prabhupada was referring to in his famous March 1974 Varnasrama

Walks

when he said, "he is a brahmana and he is teaching how to til the ground, how

to

protect cows." Rohita is quite knowledgeable and very hands on, and also very

devoted to Krsna and Prabhupada. But combined with his competence and

devotion,

he is also humble and with a kindly sense of humor -- a very rare combination

indeed.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

New Talavan wrote:

> Dear Aroon:

>

> Please accept my respects, all glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> I see that Chaya devi (Balabhadra's, good wife) has added your letters to

> the cow conference.

>

> I have received and have viewed the Cd you sent me, but due to preparations

> for Janmastami and Vyasapuja I have been unable to send a reply sooner, I am

> sorry for the delay.

>

> This video of a slaughter house is indeed a very common thing in the western

> world and is also becoming more common even in the holy dham of

> Bharatavarsa. Has mataji suggest in her letter, perhaps one course you may

> take is to establish a community of young couples - this may even be the

> most practical thing for your area. At the present time I have been spending

> much time researching in our literatures how Srila Prabhupada wanted us to

> do this. Should you be interested in taking this path, I would even be

> available to come and help establish something along this line or I can send

> some guidance via e-mail which ever is the most needed.

> ys, Rohita dasa

>

> -

> "Noma T. Petroff" <npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu>

> "Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) pamho (DOT) net>;

> <Chalissa (AT) aol (DOT) com>

> Monday, August 13, 2001 5:45 PM

> Veganism vs Vegetarianism

>

> > Certainly, Aroon has presented a thoughtful letter. But the solution to

> the

> > problem is very complex. I do not believe that veganism offers a full

> answer.

> > Please see my comments below. I do not really know an easy answer to this

> > problem, but I there are difficulties with various approaches.

> >

> > your servant,

> >

> > Hare Krsna dasi

> >

> > ************************

> >

> > "ISCOWP (Balabhadra Dasa & Chaya Dasi - USA)" wrote:

> >

> > > -

> > > Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com

> > > iscowp (AT) earthlink (DOT) net

> > > Tuesday, July 31, 2001 1:41 AM

> > > Greetings

> > >

> > > Dear Balabhadra dasa

> > >

> > > Haribol

> > >

> > > My humble obiesance to Srila Prabhupada.

> > >

> > > ...The following article is expected to be published in several Indian

> > > weeklies

> > > within a few days.

> > >

> > > I introduced Dr. Gross to the congregation- & put these words together.

> > > please read on:

> > >

> > > Report filed by Aroon Kumar. Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com

> > >

> > > VEGANISM vs VEGETARIANISM:

> > >

> > > Most of us wish to be compassionate individuals, and some of us, as part

> of

> > > our goal to be compassionate eat only vegetarian foods. Many people who

> are

> > > vegetarian feel quite comfortable eating dairy products; since they

> believe

> > > there is no killing of an animal and assume that there is no cruelty

> involved

> > > in obtaining such animal products, as milk, cheese, yogurt, and ghee. Is

> this

> > > indeed true? A speaker at the Hari Om Temple suggested that there is

> great

> > > suffering associated with milk and other dairy products.

> > >

> > > You should have been at the Hari Om Temple ( Medinah) on Sunday july 22

> ! Dr

> > > Steven Gross, who is the co- chair of the Illinois Humane PAC (

> Political

> > > Action Committee) spoke eloquently on the subject of " Raising of Dairy

> cows

> > > in the USA". What an eye-opener! The gist of his speech follows.

> Read-on!!

> > >

> > > A cow by nature is a grazing animal, who needs to ingest huge quantities

> of

> > > grass, typically walking 4-5 miles during the day....

> > >

> > > ...Male calves are either killed within hours or a few days after birth

> and

> > > sold

> > > as "Bob" veal, usually for frozen dinners. Other male calves are raised

> for

> > > meat, and about a million plus male calves are raised for veal.

> >

> > The first problem that I have with veganism is that although they believe

> they

> > are being compassionate to cows and bull calves, the vegan philosophy in

> itself

> > will not protect any cows, nor will it protect any bulls. Although

> veganism

> > decries how animals are treated, in itself, to be a vegan does not mean

> that

> > one

> > single cow or one single bull is protected and allowed to live a happy,

> natural

> > life. If we take the vegan philosophy to the extreme, if everyone on

> earth

> > became a vegan, it would mean that cows and bulls would be extinct,

> because

> > there

> > would be no "use" for them.

> >

> > Certainly, not everyone is going to become a vegan so of course this won't

> > happen, but sometimes people become confused and think that veganism means

> > giving

> > cows and bulls their natural rights. It does not. Just like birth

> control or

> > even celibacy does not in itself protect children, it simply reduces the

> number

> > of children produced (by pious or impious means) -- similarly to be a

> vegan

> > does

> > not help give cows and bulls their natural rights, it simply reduces the

> number

> > of animals born (by reducing the commercial demand for their products).

> >

> > Veganism by itself is not cow protection. We should not be confused about

> > that.

> > But, in our spiritual line, Srila Prabhupada directly stated -- numerous

> times

> > --

> > that cow protection is one of the two pillars of spiritual advancement.

> So

> > this

> > is my first problem with the vegan approach.

> >

> > > ...What can we do to change this horrible situation? First, learn that

> there

> > > are

> > > much better sources of calcium than milk. The healthiest calcium sources

> are

> > > "greens and beans."

> > >

> >

> > Calcium is only one of the nutrients milk provides. Srila Prabhupada

> informed

> > us

> > that milk is needed to build fine brain tissue, and scientists agree that

> in

> > the

> > lacto-vegetarian diet, milk is the only natural source of vitamin B12,

> which is

> > vital to nerve cell development. Without vitamin B12, over the course of

> > years,

> > nerve cells, including brain cells, gradually deteriorate. This can lead

> to

> > insanity and even death. In essence, modern science backs up Srila

> > Prabhupada's

> > claims that milk is needed to develop fine brain tissue for understanding

> > spiritual topics. On the other hand, there are some ways of producing

> > artificial

> > B12. But, if we say we want a *natural* diet, that diet needs to include

> milk

> >

> > > Dr. Gross is a selfless individual & spends hours & hours for this "

> God¹s

> > > work" fighting for the mute & voiceless animals that share Mother Earth

> with

> > > us humans & are treated so very, very badly!

> >

> > I'm sure Dr. Gross is a nice man and certainly well meaning -- but I

> wonder

> > whether he takes care of any cows and bulls himself. Does he actually

> show

> > anyone the value of these animals? Does he make any substantial

> contribution

> > or

> > do any substantial work to publicize programs that do protect cows and

> bulls?

> >

> > If I had to name "selfless individuals who spend hours & hours for God's

> work

> > of

> > fighting for the voiceless animals -- I would have to name devotees like

> > Balabhadra and Chaya, Syamasundara, Rohita, and other ISKCON cowherds --

> people

> > who are actually protecting cows and bulls and demonstrating their value

> to

> > society.

> >

> > > My plea is that the Board of Trustees of ISKCON Bar ALL temples from

> making

> > > any prasad to be offered to the dieties other than from the ISKCON

> farms. I

> > > would even go a step further & suggest that ISKCON farms be established

> in

> > > every community to serve the milk supply for all Vaishnav's. Obviously

> at

> > > the ISKCON farms the cows are cared for & treated properly & are not

> destined

> > > for slaughter & above all the calves have a chance to live their lives

> out in

> > > peace. I for one would willingly pay twice or even more knowing that

> there is

> > > no cruelty involved. This should really be taken up as a business

> venture &

> > > sold as " CRUELTY FREE MILK".

> >

> > In theory, this sounds good. But the sad truth is that ISKCON has not

> evolved

> > to

> > this stage. As leaders of ISKCON's Ministry for Cow Protection and

> Agriculture

> > have their hands full just trying to make sure that certain various ISKCON

> > farms

> > around the world will actually protect the cows that they have.

> >

> > The fact is that many of the top leaders in ISKCON have no special

> commitment

> > to

> > cow protection. This is very sad. For example, one of the great leaders

> of

> > our

> > Vrndavana temple is Gopal Krsna Goswami, who is a very powerful man with a

> > great

> > many disciples and much influence. But for many years, the ISKCON

> Vrndavana

> > temple has been breeding 30 or more cows each year -- to such an extent

> that

> > there should now be nearly a thousand cows and bulls there right now. But

> > somehow, there are only about 150 cows and bulls at Vrndavana. And, they

> are

> > squeezed into a goshalla so small that they barely all have room to lie

> down at

> > night. It is very difficult to feed them all properly. Therefore

> ISKCON's

> > Ministry for Cow Protection strongly recommended to Vrndavan that it stop

> > producing more cows until it gets more land, and sets up a proper program

> to

> > train and work the bulls -- thus demonstrating their usefulness in

> society.

> > Unfortunately, this particular ISKCON leader is not at all interested, and

> has

> > made no effort to find out what happened to all the cows and bulls that

> > disappeared, nor does he care that Vrndavana temple is still breeding more

> and

> > more cows -- in spite of the Ministry for Cow Protection's advice to the

> > contrary.

> >

> > So, this is just one example. Although Srila Prabhupada states that one

> cannot

> > be spiritually advanced without practicing cow protection, a great many of

> > ISKCON's leaders are not very diligent to see that cow protection

> standards are

> > followed. (And as far as I know, there is no other group that is diligent

> about

> > protecting cows either.) Protecting cows actually depends on setting up a

> > social

> > structure so that the small farmer can survive so that the cows and bulls

> will

> > be

> > czred for as a part of his family. That would mean developing Srila

> > Prabhupada's

> > varnasrama villages, but not many leaders are interested in the part of

> > Prabhupada's teachings which deal with village organization.

> >

> > So, you see, in such a situation, it is very difficult for us to advocate

> > breeding more cows to supply "non-violent" milk to ISKCON temples.

> Breeding

> > more

> > cows starts with great enthusiasm -- but too often we have seen the

> bitterness

> > as

> > the cows and bulls get older -- and no one wants to pay to take care of

> them

> > any

> > more. Just like nectar in the beginning -- but just like poison in the

> end.

> >

> > > I need direction from you Balabhadra Dasa, I would like to write to

> > >

> > > 1) All the Board of Trustees of Iskcon & make my plea

> > > 2) Write to the Iskcon farms

> > > 3) Write to BTG.

> > >

> > > There are probably 4-5 Million followers of Eastern Religions,

> professing

> > > Vegetarianism, in the USA . I feel quite confident that given the choice

> > > between the tainted cruel milk in the stores vs the pure clean &

> wholesome

> > > milk from Iskcon farms or others that are run by compassionate people,

> the

> > > buyers will opt for the latter.

> >

> > The idea of large-scale production of "cruelty-free" milk for the

> capitalist

> > market place is also a complex topic -- and a practice which would have

> many

> > pitfalls. In the Mahabharat, Bhismadeva states that, "He who lives by

> selling

> > milk, will have to sink in hell." I have addressed the problem of the

> > commercial

> > dairy farmer in a BTG article in 1996 called "Why Commercial Dairies Can't

> Stop

> > Killing." The esssence is that the rule of capitalist production means

> that

> > (ceteris paribus) whoever can produce his product most cheaply will win

> the

> > market. Even if so-called "cruelty free" milk were sold, farmers would

> have

> > incentive to cheat on the quality of care given to the animals -- and who

> will

> > maintain counts to see that all the calves, especially the bull calves are

> > maintained?

> >

> > > I await your experienced Counsel. Although I am an old staid man, yet it

> is

> > > hard for me to contain myself & see how many of us are duped into

> believing

> > > that drinking milk that is store bought is ok!

> >

> > One point to remember here is that when no other milk is available, even

> Srila

> > Prabhupada offered store-bought milk to the Deity. I'm sure that you

> remember

> > the story of Krsna and the Putana witch. Although the demoness was trying

> to

> > kill Krsna, when Krsna destroyed her, he gave her great advancement --

> rather

> > than sending her to hell as she deserved. Similarly, Krsna is not

> indifferent

> > to

> > the welfare of all the cows whose milk is offered to Him. He especially

> loves

> > the cows, thus if they are offering their milk to Krsna, they are sure to

> gain

> > spiritual advancement. This is an important factor which non-devotee

> vegans

> > will not be able to comprehend.

> >

> > > I also realize you have a great task on your hands taking care of your

> 100

> > > acre farm & 26 cattle; as the " Adopt - cow" program elsewhere is your

> farm

> > > also have an arrangement like that? I think I could attempt to mobilize

> > > support from the Chicago community. So that some of your time could be

> freed

> > > up to lead in this endeavor!

> > >

> > > Hare Krishna

> > >

> > > Your humble servant

> > >

> > > Aroon ( Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com)

> >

> > In all of this, it may seem that I am criticizing the vegans. In fact, I

> > believe

> > that they are very well-meaning and thoughtful individuals. And the

> problem

> > they

> > face is difficult to answer satisfactory in the present context. But I

> also

> > believe that their are a number of logical holes in their argument which

> make

> > it

> > hard for me to accept as is. On the other hand whatever the vegans and

> groups

> > like PETA can do to at least reduce animal cruelty is some good. But it

> is not

> > the complete answer.

> >

> > Perhaps my statements will seem somewhat discouraging, but we have seen

> that

> > uninformed idealistic enthusiam about breeding cows can ultimately lead to

> > painful results that can injure and sometimes even kill the cows and bulls

> > under

> > our care, as well as tearing apart the communities where the cow abuse

> occurs.

> > Thus most of us who participate on the cow conference tend to be cautious.

> >

> > Nevertheless, we do maintain positive hope. The biggest misunderstanding

> about

> > "cruelty free" milk, is that it is not simply a material product. It is

> > actually

> > a most valuable substance to offer to the Lord -- that is because it can

> only

> > be

> > produced by devotees who cooperate together. One version of that is at a

> place

> > like Balabhadra and Chaya's ISCOWP farm project. Many other devotees

> offer

> > their

> > support to them, thus they can nicely maintain cows and bulls who can

> produce

> > items to offer to Krsna. Krsna's not just getting the food, He's getting

> the

> > results of devotees working together to serve Him. Another example would

> be

> > the

> > various ISKCON farms around the world who do follow the standards of the

> ISKCON

> > Ministry for Cow Protection.

> >

> > And, finally, the ideal goal for the future is that milk and ox-cultivated

> > grains

> > can be produced on small-scale family farms in self-sufficient Krsna

> conscious

> > varnasrama farming communities, according to Srila Prabhupada's vision.

> > Because,

> > really, to produce cruelty-free milk, one must create a society which will

> > properly train and care for cowherd families.

> >

> > What would a great project be for the Chicago community? I believe it

> would be

> > to purchase some farmland and provide training for even a small number of

> young

> > couples to establish themselves there so they can worship Krsna, farm and

> take

> > care of small herds of cows. Then any surplus milk they produce beyond

> the

> > community's needs could be offered to the Deities of the Chicago temple.

> I

> > believe that you need to start small and have an emphasis on careful

> training

> > to

> > have a success. Best luck in your endeavor. May Krsna reward you by

> showing

> > you

> > the answer to your very tenderhearted concerns.

> >

> > your servant,

> >

> > Hare Krsna dasi

> >

--

Noma Petroff

Academic Department Coordinator

BOWDOIN COLLEGE

Department of Theater & Dance

9100 College Station

Brunswick ME 04011-8491

Phone: (207) 725-3663

FAX: (207) 725-3372

e-mail: npetroff (AT) bowdoin (DOT) edu

August 15, 2001

I would just like to add another problem with veganism, having tried it

myself for a while. It is very difficult for the palate to be satisfied and

yet becoming a vegetarian from meat eating was not a problem for me. I have

never missed meat, but while practising veganism, I missed dairy products a

lot.

I don't think cows and bulls as a species would become extinct if everyone

was a vegan. Because we don't breed and eat a species isn't cause for its

disappearance. Anyway its hypothetical, at least in Kali yuga, about

everyone becoming a vegan. In kali yuga, everyone is addicted to sense

gratification, so we have to show them how nice it is to protect, rather

than kill. So vegetarianism, rather than meat-eating, with all its delicious

edibles, is a viable alternative.

The main thing about the type of veganism that does not take into account

the possibility of protection, is that it discourages both cruelty, and

love. When I first came in contact with BTG, it had on the cover the picture

of a man hugging a calf, who was beautifully decorated. I immediately

thought: vegetarians protest against animal cruelty, but here is animal

love. This is better still.

We have a farm here, and if we did not actively look after the cows and

bulls they would very soon die of tick infestation. A mother cow will often

die of mastitus, and a calf of diarrhoea from too much milk. It almost seems

that cows and humans were made for each other.

Everyone likes the idea of milking a cow, but who is attracted to killing

her? People will do milking as a novelty, in coming from the city. No one

would kill a cow for fun. Cows have a sweet and attractive nature, and their

milk is delicious and extremely versatile. There is a question of both

gratitude, and love in cow protection.

I think that temples should pay extra for cruelty free milk from our farms,

be it 5 times as much. The thing is, so much milk is wasted on producing

curd and then throwing out the whey. If they buy 1/5th as much, then every

drop would be utilized. And no more money spent.

We were doing this on New Gokula, making sure not a drop was wasted. Cows

milk from protected cows, should be valued as much as sahasra-tirtha jala.

Devotees paid high price for this jala, and yet ordinary water is free. Why

was it so sought after? Because they know it is pleasing to Krsna, much more

so than ordinary water. So protected cows milk is like that. There is

absolutely no comparison even in terms of nutrition, but especially no

comparison spiritually between milk from killed cows, and that from

protected cows.

Similarly with tulsi leaves. Devotees take great pains to protect a tulsi

bush and keep her alive in the west. Why? Because the leaves are special to

Krsna. Because Tulsi is beloved. So the cows are also.

Tulsi is very medicinal and one day may be produced commercially. Would we

degrade oursleves to save labour if there were tulsi farms around producing

leaves from Tulsi bushes that were killed when they got too old? If it meant

that say the tulsi carers could be able to go collect funds, it could be

quite lucrative an alternative!

The point is where does worship end and money concern take over? At what

point? If we support cow killing because the milk is cheaper, then why not

forget about paying the carer of tulsi, or paying devotees to collect holy

water. In fact why not just use local mud? Why pay for tilak?

Why spend extra to visit Vrindavan? There is closer temples to visit.

PLastic is much cheaper a material to make dieties out of,

etc etc.

If no karma-free milk is available is one thing. But if it is there, then

all steps should be made to purchase it. If there is no funds at all, then

OK, but generally there are funds and it is a matter of priority..

ys, Niscala

>

_______________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

August 15, 2001

Niscala Devidasi wrote:

> I don't think cows and bulls as a species would become extinct if everyone

> was a vegan. Because we don't breed and eat a species isn't cause for its

> disappearance.

Generally, in the mundane society, there is a direct correspondence between the

economic profitability of cows and the cost of maintaining them. You are right

to say that should not be the case, but economic history indicates that it is.

For example, every time there is a dramatic increase in grain prices, the rate

of cow slaughter also shows a sharp rise. Farmers kill their cows whose milk

sales bring in less money than it costs to feed them. And of course we see

that

bull calves are generally slaughtered at an earlier age than cows because to

the

farmer, they have no monetary value except their meat.

Sadly, we have even seen such economic forces play out in ISKCON, such as in

1999 when the president of the Murari-Sevaka temple in Tennessee sent 12 cows

and oxen to be slaughtered, because he believed it was too expensive to take

care of them.

Most dairy farmers and cattle ranchers take care of cows as a means of

business,

to generate a profit. If they could no longer generate a profit from the

animals, they would kill them and move to some other kind of business.

What our alternative hope is, is that as petroleum inevitably prices climb over

the few decades, escalating the cost of farming and pushing more and more

commercial farmers out of business -- that we will be somehow training more and

more young devotees as farmers and helping them get established on their own

small-scale subsistence farms -- in economically protected communities. Thus

we

will be in a position to rescue at least some of the cows from the commercial

herds as more and more dairy farmers continue to go out of business.

The small commercial dairy farmers are being wiped out right now. If you look

at the statistics for any state in the U.S. at least, you will find that the

number of dairy farmers has substantially declined even in the last 10 years --

by as much as 25-50%. If you contact any state agricultural extension agency

in

the U.S. they can tell you exactly how bad it is in that particular state. If

I

look at a nice, small dairy farm of Brown Swiss cows in Maine, for example -- I

wonder how long that farmer will be able to stay in business. And I just wish

there were going to be trained devotee farmers to buy his wonderful cows and

bull calves when he decides he can't afford to go on any more. Otherwise that

wonderful line of genetics is wiped out.

*********

Your point that whereas the vegans promote abstaining from animals completely,

devotees want to promote love of animals, especially love of the cows because

they are so loved by Krnsa. is a very good one.

your servant,

Hare Krsna dasi

August 16, 2001

Haribol

My humble obeisances to Srila Prabhupada:

The article was published in several of the weeklies in the Chicago area. I

grew up in India & life as a vegetarian revolved strongly in the use of dairy

products. This was decades ago when I do believe that the cows were treated

much better than they are now. In the west ofcourse it is heinous the crimes

to dairy cows as well as in the slaughter-houses & worst of all is the ritual

slaughter. If all these negatives could be erased in a Vrindavan like

setting, I for one would be very happy as a lacto-vegetarian

I am an Animal Rights activist & have sent out 400+ CD's of the "Meet Your

Meat" Put out by PETA ( People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) to any

one with a CD burner & willing to make atleast 4 copies to give to their

carnivore friends. Please let others know and send their mailing address to

Chalissa1 (AT) aol (DOT) com & I'll gladly sent them a copy.

I am convinced that where moral & ethical values are on our side we will

prevail.

Your humble servant

Aroon

August 16, 2001

Dear Rohita Das

Hare Krishna

My humble obeisances to Srila Prabhupada

The Janamshtmi celebration & Vyas puja were just such a wonderful experience

at the Iskcon temple in Chicago as well. I cannot thank you enough for your

offer to help us move this dream of cruelty free living forward. I have a

meeting at the temple this sunday & intend to plead my case, now with your

pledge of support, with the temple president & other leaders in Chicago.

Somehow as a very junior devotee I still feel a degree of obstinacy in

forwarding my plea to all the temple Presidents & the GBC members; could you

please help me in identifying who they are & where I can reach them.

Unfortunately the BTG magazine info is dated & most of my messages are

returned.

Your humble servant

Aroon

August 17, 2001

Dear HKDD and all,

HKDD wrote:

> What our alternative hope is, is that as petroleum

inevitably prices climb over the few decades,

escalating the cost of farming and pushing more and

more commercial farmers out of business -- that we

will be somehow training more and more young devotees

as farmers and helping them get established on their

own small-scale subsistence farms -- in economically

protected communities. Thus we will be in a position

to rescue at least some of the cows from the

commercial herds as more and more dairy farmers

continue to go out of business.

I'm sorry but I must again take you to task on what

you are writing.

1/ If our major hope is a petroleum crisis we may find

ourselves a miss. There is no inevitabiltiy of petrol

price increase, though an Israeli war would allow

that. Without such a pertubation, petrolem really is

set to decrease in price and importance in the future

as conservation, efficiencies and substitutes, in the

form of renewables or new technologies, come to play.

2/ That we will "somehow" be in a position to have

"economically protected farm communities" will come

about as a result of knowing and applying the "how"

and protecting the farm communities by the latter

method of economics, meaning managing the home. By a

clear and applied perception of economic reality it

will be easier to protect our material situation.

3/ Also, it is true that the developed world will lose

its present farming structure. But in responding to

market demand in the globalised market place other

opportunities will present themselves. Even the

organic sphere will come under intense competition

from cheaper third world producers, but still they

presently have a ?ten-year? window. Wheras Protection

Farms is still a window in the making; so in managing

its economic reality one must plan into it the varying

situations that it will face.

Having studied this for many years now, I have many

ideas of how to approach this that I have wanted to

share with the conference. But until it can at least

embrace the possibility that economic viability

through a commercial avenue could well lead to our

desired goal of cow protection then I find it quite

difficult to discuss the finer points of the system.

If we could learn from past mistakes, both in ISKCON

and in the wider agricultural and development sphere,

we could design a more water-tight sytem.

Yours,

Mark.

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August 17, 2001

Dear all,

Sorry to have written so much of late, whilst I agree

with much that is written I feel I must address what I

see as errors in the "ISKOCN mindset" to the "open for

all" field of farm animal protection. If I am wrong I

would hope and pray to be put in my place, but still I

have not found sufficient argument to abate my claims.

Sorry to be so demanding but if we do not approach the

vaisya varna as cow protection, agriculture AND

BUSINESS then I can not see a clear way ahead.

In reply to Aroon, HKDD wrote:

"Protecting cows actually depends on setting up a

social structure so that the small farmer can survive

so that the cows and bulls will be cared for as a part

of his family. That would mean developing Srila

Prabhupada's varnasrama villages, but not many leaders

are interested in the part of Prabhupada's teachings

which deal with village organization."

It also needs an environmental and economic structure,

not just social - the three pillars of sustainability,

and of go raksa krsi.

A purely family-based cow protection may be the ideal,

but if a larger goshala approach is needed as the

first won't go, then that avenue needs exploring.

Varnasrama villages are fine, but are we talking about

the peroquial present-day-ISKCON-as-a-narrow-religion

varnasram or are we talking about varnasrama in a

wider sense?

"The biggest misunderstanding about "cruelty free"

milk, is that it is not simply a material product. It

is actually a most valuable substance to offer to the

Lord -- that is because it can only be produced by

devotees who cooperate together."

"ONLY PRODUCED BY DEVOTEES" - Either you are using the

word devotee in a very wide sense or you are really

locked in a sectarian vision of "Jesus is the only

way". Please excuse my humour, but I find that

approach to be mind blowing."

People of whatever whateverness can also work together

to do alsorts of things, it goes on all the time all

around us, why should cow protection be so special

that only tilaked devotees can do it? I see no

reasoning here at all.

"Perhaps my statements will seem somewhat

discouraging, but we have seen that uninformed

idealistic enthusiam about breeding cows can

ultimately lead to painful results that can injure and

sometimes even kill the cows and bulls under our care,

as well as tearing apart the communities where the cow

abuse occurs.

Thus most of us who participate on the cow conference

tend to be cautious."

Yes, to me your comments to definately seem

discouraging. But I agree with you "uninformed

idealistic enthusiam about breeding cows can

ultimately lead to painful results". But surely we are

now more informed and should not caution be tempered

by reason, every day a clean page to write a fresh

chapter?

"The idea of large-scale production of "cruelty-free"

milk for the capitalist market place is also a complex

topic -- and a practice which would have many

pitfalls. In the Mahabharat, Bhismadeva states that,

"He who lives by selling milk, will have to sink in

hell." I have addressed the problem of the

commercial dairy farmer in a BTG article in 1996

called "Why Commercial Dairies Can't Stop Killing."

The esssence is that the rule of capitalist production

means that (ceteris paribus) whoever can produce his

product most cheaply will win the market. Even if

so-called "cruelty free" milk were sold, farmers would

have incentive to cheat on the quality of care given

to the animals -- and who will maintain counts to see

that all the calves, especially the bull calves are

maintained?"

I'm sorry again, but I really disagreed with that

article. Capitalism as a creed it ruled by the

consciousness of the providers and consumers. Cheating

is a human propensity in modern capitalist systems

quality standards are set up and the legal system is

in place to check this tendancy. Cow protection should

be no different, but we need to define the standard.

"So, you see, in such a situation, it is very

difficult for us to advocate breeding more cows to

supply "non-violent" milk to ISKCON temples. Breeding

more cows starts with great enthusiasm -- but too

often we have seen the bitterness as the cows and

bulls get older -- and no one wants to pay to take

care of them any

more. Just like nectar in the beginning -- but just

like poison in the end."

This is where my impassioned hair stands on end. If

you can not advocate sustainable production of go

raksa krsi, of cow protection, agriculture and

business, not even with a $5-litre price tag, with a

well thought out business plan, with all the things

added that we have been talking about, then who can?

Am I as VEDA the only one advocating Protection Farms

- for the productive and profitable lifetime

protection of farm animals - in its realist of senses,

not just as a sham? Because God save the cows if I am

as it doesn't look as though ISKCON will, not in a

month of sunday festivals.

Please, I wish you'd start advocating breeding

protected cows, done in a proper way, because this

world and its farm animals need it. Otherwise its the

6-inch bolt in the head for them all.

Yours, inpassioned as usual, but sincere, and

hopefully at the end of the day not to offensive,

Mark Chatburn.

__________

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August 17, 2001

>hkdd:>

>

>"The biggest misunderstanding about "cruelty free"

>milk, is that it is not simply a material product. It

>

>is actually a most valuable substance to offer to the

>Lord -- that is because it can only be produced by

>devotees who cooperate together."

>mark:

>"ONLY PRODUCED BY DEVOTEES" - Either you are using the

>word devotee in a very wide sense or you are really

>locked in a sectarian vision of "Jesus is the only

>way". Please excuse my humour, but I find that

>approach to be mind blowing."

Niscala: Dear Mark, go back over the whole sentence of HKDD. I find the

picking apart of someone's sentences to be nauseating. You could not do it

to someone's sppech, but you can do it to an e-mail. Obviously she is

stressing, not the word "devotees" but "cooperating". This is the functional

word in the point she is making.

I'm sorry again, but I really disagreed with that

>article. Capitalism as a creed it ruled by the

>consciousness of the providers and consumers. Cheating

>is a human propensity in modern capitalist systems

>quality standards are set up and the legal system is

>in place to check this tendancy. Cow protection should

>be no different, but we need to define the standard.

Organic products can be sold at a much higher price, because the producers

can be fined for using chemicals. So similarly, those who claim that they

are producing cruelty-free milk, can also be fined. In Australia we have

laws about false advertising. We could just invoke those laws.

>

>This is where my impassioned hair stands on end. If

>you can not advocate sustainable production of go

>raksa krsi, of cow protection, agriculture and

>business, not even with a $5-litre price tag, with a

>well thought out business plan, with all the things

>added that we have been talking about, then who can?

I don't see the problem here, but Mark, first of all, make sure you have

your market, and the willing persons necessary to care for the resulting

progeny, and the land for it. I haven't seen your figures. Will $5 a litre

actually support cow and progeny thier whole life? If it does and you

actually DO have the market, then I don't think we have to be fanatical

about training all the oxen...do we?

Trouble is, the oxen will be seen as a burden unless they have some use. So

there should be legal binding that no animal can be slaughtered that is

produced of the venture- I would like to say this would only be necessary

for non-devotees, but then I consider our history and then I change my mind-

legally binding for all.

I like the idea of advertising cruelty free milk, because you can actually

invoke the law for false advertising should they not live up to it. Cruelty

and slaughter-free. In fact, the cow protection standards set by ISCOWP.

But wouldn't the price go down if the oxen, at least some of them were

engaged? Then you could get another product- ox-produce. The only

environmentally friendly food available. Even organics is not as friendly...

Anyway, just some ideas.

ys, Niscala

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August 18, 2001

Who is gonna work and train all of them many, many, oxen and keep to their

health and care and facilities???????????????????????????.. need to come out

from behind the office desk and consider all angles.

It will never work; and if that aint good enough then I pray that it will

never come to be.

>I don't see the problem here, but Mark, first of all, make sure you have

>your market, and the willing persons necessary to care for the resulting

>progeny, and the land for it. I haven't seen your figures. Will $5 a litre

>actually support cow and progeny thier whole life? If it does and you

>actually DO have the market, then I don't think we have to be fanatical

>about training all the oxen...do we?

>

>Trouble is, the oxen will be seen as a burden unless they have some use. So

>there should be legal binding that no animal can be slaughtered that is

>produced of the venture- I would like to say this would only be necessary

>for non-devotees, but then I consider our history and then I change my

>mind-

>legally binding for all.

>

>I like the idea of advertising cruelty free milk, because you can actually

>invoke the law for false advertising should they not live up to it. Cruelty

>and slaughter-free. In fact, the cow protection standards set by ISCOWP.

>

>But wouldn't the price go down if the oxen, at least some of them were

>engaged? Then you could get another product- ox-produce. The only

>environmentally friendly food available. Even organics is not as

>friendly...

>

>Anyway, just some ideas.

>

>ys, Niscala

>

>_______________

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>

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August 18, 2001

Dear Niscala Devidasi,

Hi.

> I don't see the problem here, but Mark, first of

> all, make sure you have

> your market, and the willing persons necessary to

> care for the resulting

> progeny, and the land for it. I haven't seen your

> figures. Will $5 a litre

> actually support cow and progeny thier whole life?

> If it does and you

> actually DO have the market, then I don't think we

> have to be fanatical

> about training all the oxen...do we?

My view entirely on both fronts.

1/ Market research is needed. My informal sondeos have

led me to believe there is a big market. BUT. How big?

What premium will they pay?

2/ If the full cost of the milk includes lifetime care

of oxen then they don't necessarily need to work. Just

like we see in most ISKCON farms anyway. I look at the

Manor, UK, and whilst Syam may critisise my view on

oxen, I don't see many oxen working and producing

there. So he is doing the

cow-and-milk-leading-ox-and-crop-following system

anyway.

> But wouldn't the price go down if the oxen, at least

> some of them were

> engaged? Then you could get another product-

> ox-produce. The only

> environmentally friendly food available. Even

> organics is not as friendly...

Exactly, it is in our (and the cows) economic

interests to bring real utility value to the oxen,

therefore they will not have to be subsidised by the

cows or however, they will themselves be a productive

and profitable force. But that is a much more complex

system to cost and operate. Leading with milk, like

ISKCON is doing, makes sense. With investment into

ox/crop systems then a truer price for the milk and

all will emerge. But this will take longer and be more

complex than the milking part, which is the only

reason for the latter to precede the former.

If the consumers are part of this process and the

whole business is totally transparent through the

internet etc, then the consumers will see where there

money goes. If they are not just buying produce but

actually buying into the system then they can get

refunded by a cheaper pricing system when the real

price shows itself upon completion of the ox/crop

equation, because there payement is not just for a

product it is for the system and the produce they

recieve is the byproduct from the system. This idea I

have is fairly complex but I would be glad to tell

more if you are interested.

Also:

With the HKDD comment I must say I thought the

functional words were "only devotees". If not then I

agree with your statement that cooperation is the

function. I too believe picking apart speaches and

emails to be enfuriating. The point is here that all

the words that go on this conference serve to bring

understanding that bring action. So taking apart

semantics and ideas is the function here to allow

action to come forth. I'm sorry my manner may be

rough, but that is how I presently am, please forgive

me. I do not attck HKDD's writings just for the sake

of it, but because I believe she is wrong to preclude

business and large centralised goshallas from the

equation. Other than that I love much of her up front

ways. In fact, I prefer people who are bold and up

front.

Mark

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August 19, 2001

>

>My view entirely on both fronts.

>1/ Market research is needed. My informal sondeos have

>led me to believe there is a big market. BUT. How big?

You could and should start small, and as the demand increases, you could

carefully expand. I know you have mentioned a big centralized goshalla, but

why not see if you can market one cow's milk at this price?

One thing I'd like to mention- here in Australia no one can sell milk unless

they are a member of the dairy farmers corp- or its actually illegal. Is

that the case in your country? Because being a memeber means that your milk

MUST get treated like other milks- taken away by a big truck, and you are

paid standard rate by the litre.

There may be a way you can get around it, if its the case in your country,

but check it out first.

Another thing is you may want to market dairy products rather than or as

well as milk, then this could bring you the same money with a cheaper price

for milk. For example, yoghurt feches about 4 times the price of milk on the

market, and yet yoghurt is nothing but cultured milk- costs no extra milk to

produce. If you sold yoghurt, the price of milk could descend accordingly-

if yoghurt was $6 a litre, milk could be $4 if you sold similar quantities.

And if you can market low fat milk option, you can use the cream for

ice-cream, cream, butter and maybe even sour cream. You would capture the

market of those who are vegans because of cruelty but love dairy products,

and those who want to be vegans but the thought of giving up dairy products

is too much.

It might be good to get statistics about the comparison of nutritional value

of protected cows milk and normal milk.

I think Priyavarta could give you a lot of support, he's realy into this,

and is very influential. He was trying to make FFL conditionally vegan, and

is one himself. Conditional vegan means only taking milk products from

protected cows.. He used to be available at priya (AT) ffl (DOT) org. He's president of

the Vegetarian Society, and editor of its magazine, or used to be, so you

could get the feel of the market from him.

Unless he has changed drastically in the last two years, he will be very

supportive...

Anyway, some ideas for you, hope you find them of use.

ys, Niscala

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August 19, 2001

Dear billy bob buckwheat,

you say:

> Who is gonna work and train all of them many, many,

> oxen and keep to their

> health and care and

> facilities???????????????????????????.. need to come

> out

> from behind the office desk and consider all angles.

> It will never work; and if that aint good enough

> then I pray that it will

> never come to be.

I really don't understand your perspective Derek. Just

concider for one second the remotest of chances that a

"properly thought out" commercial venture actualy

would work, then the oxen and the workers will be part

of the farming system. I feel by praying for it to not

work you are really consigning farm animals to more of

the same, which is billions of slaughtered carcases

every year. Few devotees are going to take to the

householder model of a few cows per household, as has

been the case to date. And those few will not dent the

mass slaughter. Some "clown" will in the end find this

business idea and do it anyway. That's the way it is.

So, it's best to set high standards and find a way

that "could" work.

After all, for many devotees it is far easier to get a

college education and a $30,000 year job, or flog

HongKongers. The purely social model of householder

goshallas of course has its merits, and ultimately is

the ideal according to Vedic wisdom. But realistically

speaking, at the present time such small units may

only really form en mass from the backbone of a larger

system that is in most respects commercial. That is

how I envisage it.

Mark

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August 21, 2001

.. My informal sondeos have

> led me to believe there is a big market. BUT. How big?

And where is it and what would shipping costs be?

> What premium will they pay?

And how much surplus will have to be discarded in order to ensure full

supply to that market, or during market penetration?

> 2/ If the full cost of the milk includes lifetime care

> of oxen then they don't necessarily need to work. Just

> like we see in most ISKCON farms anyway. I look at the

> Manor, UK, and whilst Syam may critisise my view on

> oxen, I don't see many oxen working and producing

> there. So he is doing the

> cow-and-milk-leading-ox-and-crop-following system

> anyway.

>

Which means he is subsidizing it. But he is doing at least SOME oxen, so

although harsh realities may be holding him back, at least the door is open

to ox utilization which is a step up from most places.

> Exactly, it is in our (and the cows) economic

> interests to bring real utility value to the oxen,

> therefore they will not have to be subsidised by the

> cows or however, they will themselves be a productive

> and profitable force.

Won't happen as long as the ox have to compete directly with oil power.

You can make more money quicker robbing a bank (drilling for oil)than

drawing interest on money deposited there.(ox power)

But that is a much more complex

> system to cost and operate. Leading with milk, like

> ISKCON is doing, makes sense.

Then why is the failure rate close to 100%? and please don't loop back

into your implied criticism that every farm manager to date has been

incompetent.

With investment into

> ox/crop systems then a truer price for the milk and

> all will emerge. But this will take longer and be more

> complex than the milking part, which is the only

> reason for the latter to precede the former.

And if you don't do cropping, how will you dispose of the manure?

>

> If the consumers are part of this process and the

> whole business is totally transparent through the

> internet etc,

Which dairy products will be best to market over the internet? Seems to

eliminate anything requiring refrigeration.

August 21, 2001

>

> Another thing is you may want to market dairy products rather than or as

> well as milk, then this could bring you the same money with a cheaper

price

> for milk. For example, yoghurt feches about 4 times the price of milk on

the

> market, and yet yoghurt is nothing but cultured milk- costs no extra milk

to

> produce. If you sold yoghurt, the price of milk could descend accordingly-

> if yoghurt was $6 a litre, milk could be $4 if you sold similar

quantities.

If you ignore the cost of processing milk into yoghurt. Milk production,

milk processing, and marketing and 3 distinct different businesses. That

aside, value added products (like yoghurt) is the only faint hope we

have. Depending solely on fluid milk sales is a virtual nonstarter.

August 21, 2001

> After all, for many devotees it is far easier to get a

> college education and a $30,000 year job, or flog

> HongKongers. The purely social model of householder

> goshallas of course has its merits, and ultimately is

> the ideal according to Vedic wisdom. But realistically

> speaking, at the present time such small units may

> only really form en mass from the backbone of a larger

> system that is in most respects commercial. That is

> how I envisage it.

>

> Mark

And small scale integrated production with incentive based subsidizes

serving those householders and a subscription vegan market is IMHO the most

realistic approach.

August 21, 2001

Yo MMM

>

> And small scale integrated production with

> incentive based subsidizes

> serving those householders and a subscription vegan

> market is IMHO the most

> realistic approach.

>

Sorry mate, didn't quite get that!

Meaning:

incentive based subsidizes

subscription vegan market

Without comprehension, I can't reply well.

Mark

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August 21, 2001

Dear billy bob buckwheat,

you say:

> Who is gonna work and train all of them many, many,

> oxen and keep to their

> health and care and

> facilities???????????????????????????.. need to come

> out

> from behind the office desk and consider all angles.

> It will never work; and if that aint good enough

> then I pray that it will

> never come to be.

How about just answering the question? Even if you don't work them , who will

care for them and their facilities??? along with all the other cows?? YOU???

When I say come out from behind the office desk and take a look from all

angles;; You give away to the extrem that you are only considering the Mr.

office guy angle and not the practical " REAL " angle of actual experience of

being out in the feilds dealing day to day with the cows and living with

neibors who are in hundreds of miles in every direction owning dairy farms and

scraping from the hairs of their asses to try to make it in the world as this

type of bussiness.. One of the major factors which allows them to succeed in

their commercial diseased persuits is that they send their unproductive cows to

slaughter; what to speak of the bulls.. they make a living just as it is but

just try to imagine feeding "extra" mouths that don't keep their own up keep at

least , or even close. What about facilities; water troughs; foot care;

pasture managment; grains ( most farmers grow a big quanity of their own grains

which requires land and machines for commercial ) ;; What about disease

control?? ( most farmers have problems with diseases and spreading with so

many and crowded facilities and even not crowded. some diseases they just have

to be in the same pasture and you don't even know all the diseases!!!! most

just pump them full of antibiotics and there goes your organic sticker);;; what

about the major fencing; what about scraping manure; What about land... with

your idea the land will never be enough it will have to spread like a balloon

or like a pyrimid along with everything else;; what about all the "HUNDREDS" of

things that I'm not gonna mention that you don't ever consider which cost lots

of money and all the work involved. I can go on but there is no use. This is

why your lost in the clouds thinking that your idea will work and it wont.

Now its funny, cause you say you don't know my perspective on this but you

still say if I pray for this then I'm favoring the ways of sticking the cows

into slaughter.. My perspective is a more simple one, which the cows will

always get proper attention and slaughter is not even a question. With your

persuits; its exactly the same as any other billion carcaus per year slaughter

dairy except that you express in your unexperienced words that you will protect

them; just to get started and get help only to find out later that you will be

forced to get rid of some cows and then not give a damn because you will be so

blinded by greed it wont matter any more. THis is Reality MARK!!

If you want some advice.. do "ALL" the figures for taking care of two cows. But

not just figures... actualy take care of two cows for some time, then came back

and talk about this idea..

The best idea is to show people by good example, even if the whole populace is

not into it, it will spread..even if slowly.. the reason it will spread is

because it works and its simple. Anything a great man does, common men will

follow. commercial farms are great for rendering plants and slaughter houses.

basicaly all go hand-in-hand. and your right, their all clowns but not very

funny ones.

The backbone is already there, its called VEDA, There is just some cancer on

the ribs (commercial slaughter farms)

ys, derek-

I really don't understand your perspective Derek. Just

concider for one second the remotest of chances that a

"properly thought out" commercial venture actualy

would work, then the oxen and the workers will be part

of the farming system. I feel by praying for it to not

work you are really consigning farm animals to more of

the same, which is billions of slaughtered carcases

every year. Few devotees are going to take to the

householder model of a few cows per household, as has

been the case to date. And those few will not dent the

mass slaughter. Some "clown" will in the end find this

business idea and do it anyway. That's the way it is.

So, it's best to set high standards and find a way

that "could" work.

After all, for many devotees it is far easier to get a

college education and a $30,000 year job, or flog

HongKongers. The purely social model of householder

goshallas of course has its merits, and ultimately is

the ideal according to Vedic wisdom. But realistically

speaking, at the present time such small units may

only really form en mass from the backbone of a larger

system that is in most respects commercial. That is

how I envisage it.

Mark

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August 22, 2001

> Meaning:

>

> incentive based subsidizes

Subsidies that pay for production. Example: a guarantueed market for all

you could produce, or up to some set level of production, at a fixed or

minimum pricing guarantueed. So you have to work to get the subsidy, but

if you do work , the help is there.

> subscription vegan market

Like magazine subscription. If 20 people all give you $500 up front and

you deliver $10 a week of product to them, that is a subscription based

market. Aimed at vegans (or devotees, whatever)

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