Cowslaughter in ISKCON?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Where are the trust funds set up to continue cow protection. Are they set up

> yet?

 

Just now coming. anyone with legal expertise is invited to jump in. In the

mean

time, ISCOWP is set up to take donations, as is New Vrindaban's program and I

am sure any farm with cows can. The nice thing about Trust funds is they can

be

set up so the actual donation is not touched, but the income from the trust is

used. I hope that will encourage larger donations, bequests , etc.

 

I have this fantasy of standing in front of Yamaraja, and as he is weighing

the

pious and impious credits (me hoping nervously in the meantime I have a Get Out

Of Samsara Free card left , by his mercy, from Srila Prabhupada), being able

to point out to him (Yamaraja) that even though I have left my body, my pious

credits continue to accrue due to the income being generated by my still

working

donation in th eTrust.

 

Another form of Trust is not a general Trust set up by the cow Protection

Program

itself, but an individual fund set up by an individual donor. Like a

Charitable

Remainder Trust, for example, wherein a donor places an asset in the Trust,

but continues to recieve the income from the asset for a specified period of

time

or until leaving the body, at which time the asset passes to the beneficiary.

The donor gets full credit taxwise for the donation at the time of the gift,

but

still gets the income. Also, if the gift is highly appreciated, the neither

the donor nor the beneficiary is liable for capital gains tax. This type of

trust has obvious tax advantages for the donor.

 

 

 

> And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from

> protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we

> buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd

 

At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute

minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land

cost.

At that level, some cows are dieing unnecessarily and draw the attention of

devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to maintain a

cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro

rating

the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an

economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings.

 

A calf on average will live 12 years x $1,000 = $12,000. If in the lactation

the cow has average 30 lbs a day for 300 days and 10 lbs a day for another 900

days, that is 18,000 lbs total which equals about 2,250 gallons.

 

Lifetime support of calf $12,000

Lifetime support of cow $12,000

---------

$24,000

 

Divided by 2,250 gallons, that is a little over $10 per gallon, so use $10

per

gallon as a rule of thumb. Of course, many variables enter into this,

including climate, level of care, so the actual cost can vary, so the $10

figure is not written in stone.

 

Realistically, you have to do what you can afford. If every devotee and life

member were giving even just $1 per gallon of milk or pound of butter

consumed,

over a period of time it would generate a substantial amount of capital and

would

also serve as an inspiration to larger donors. It is the example of the

sparrow

tossing a pebble in the ocean for Lord Ramacandra.

 

Even a quarter a gallon. This cow protection is not just some mundane scheme.

It has to do also with prayer, consciousness, and a nonexploitaive mentality.

[Guest guest]

On 28 Apr 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

>

> > And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from

> > protected cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk

we

> > buy that is not from protected cows? yhs, Kanti dd

>

> At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute

> minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land

> cost.

> At that level, some cows are dieing unnecessarily and draw the attention

of

> devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year to

maintain a

> cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector and also pro

> rating

> the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this level, it creates an

> economic base for a devotee community, and a way to expand land holdings.

 

 

 

I don't know too much about cow protection, but I would like to learn more.

 

Some things I know:

 

An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year.

This is about 2125 gallons of milk.

An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780.

 

Some questions:

 

What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very

proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the

national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk

production, butter fat production and care, etc.

 

 

What is the average milk production life of an American cow?

What is the average life of an American cow?

What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow?

What is the average life of an ISKCON cow?

 

If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs.

per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is

worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live

after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same?

 

If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500

gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon.

 

If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce

about $4000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted?

 

How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk?

 

If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for

protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year.

 

I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and

cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but

if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated.

Thank you very much.

 

Sincerely,

 

Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

> > > Kanti dd:

And how much is the real cost of milk, how much more would milk from protected

cows be, i.e. how much should we donate for each gallon of milk we buy that is

not from protected cows?

> >

> > Madhava Gosh wrote:

At NV, we figure that it costs about $1 a day to maintain a cow at absolute

minimal care, not including a lot of donated labor and not including land

cost. At that level, some cows are dying unnecessarily and draw the

attention of devotees like Vyapaka. Realistically, it can be $1,000 per year

to maintain a cow, which would include some income for a devotee protector

and also pro rating the cost of the land, taxes, vet work, etc. At this

level, it creates an economic base for a devotee community, and a way to

expand land holdings.

 

 Janesvara dasa

I don't know too much about cow protection, but I would like to learn more.

Some things I know: An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per

year. This is about 2125 gallons of milk. An average gallon of U.S. milk costs

$2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780.

Some questions:

What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very

proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the

national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk

production, butter fat production and care, etc. What is the average milk

production life of an American cow?

 

Comment:

What is the average life of an American cow?

4 years productive life in commercial dairy herd (6yrs.) varies for low

commercial herds depending on degree they allow the big buck to regulate their

herd number.

 

 Janesvara dasa

 What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow? What is the

average life of an ISKCON cow?

 

Comment:

This is not a comparable situation. For example, we have 3 milking here ages

are; Nadia 17, Sarasvati 5 and Virarajanadi 5. Nadia has been milking 2 years

now and averages 20 lbs/day the other two have been milking 2 months and have

not reached their peak yet and they are at about 45 lbs/day. Our cows do not

usually live past 20, although our oldest cow, Rasalila is now 22. She is not

producing, is in good health but with so many animals and the need to keep our

population increase low there is no need to have her any others on the

production line.

 

 Janesvara dasa

 If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged

12,000 lbs. per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing

years. Which is worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer

do they live after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same?

>

Comment:

Cows unless ill are capable to produce up until death. I can not speak about

the other farms but in New Talavan (cows arrived June 1974) we have only a few

reaching 20 years, but then they are not pampered as much as they should be.

We do not have severe winters (no snow, with mild freezes) there is no barn

for them and they live outside year round. With a barn and improved pastures

we would probably see animals close to 30. Our production is around 12,000 lbs

6% b.f. From a herd of animals who are of mixed ancestry with Jersey blood

predominating.

 

The cost of maintenance will increase as the cow enters old age, she has a

body that is falling apart. Same as with people.

 

 Janesvara dasa

If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500

gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon. If the average annual

maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce about $4,000 worth of

milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted? How much do ISKCON devotees

pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk?

 

Comment:

In New Talavan we have 3 cows milking and a herd of 128. Using your figures 3

x $4,080= $12,240.

Expenses

70 acs. Winter pasture $4,000.00 (seed and fertilizer)

300 bales (1600#) $4,500.00

Grain $3,900.00

$12,900.00

 

Note I have not included medical, summer pasture, machinery, personnel etc…

 

Also it is not possible to sell all that milk 1500 gallons/yr or 28.9/week, if

I give it away people will only take 18/week whole milk un-pasteurized. It is

easier to drink blood milk from the corner grocery (laced with all kinds of

nice things), they want pasteurized and low fat. That takes additional time

and machinery to accomplish (which I would have to add to my expenses). Can

not even meet cost of feeding animals at 18 G/wk (grain, hay & pasture) what

to speak of other things. 18 x 2.72 x 52= $2,545.92/yr.

 

The problem is there is no market for milk here even if I wanted to make it a

business. So we sell a little now and then as there is interest and with this

money and that will cover salt blocks and other odds and ends. This only as a

convenience to those that come and ask for milk.

 

 Janesvara dasa

If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for

protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year. I am

likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and cow

protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but if

the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated.

Comment:

Yes, this is what I see one of the purpose of this conference, to inform

others about the cows. Now if you can promote this slogan ‘Buy Vaisnava’ then

at least in your area it may be possible to correct this situation.

 

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

>

>

> An average American cow produces 17,000 pounds of milk per year.

> This is about 2125 gallons of milk.

> An average gallon of U.S. milk costs $2.72. 2125 x $2.72 = $5,780.

>

 

$2.72 is a retail price. The farmer gets between $10 to $16 a hundred weight

which is closer to $1 per gallon. The $2.72 includes a lot of value added in

the

form of transportation, processing and bottling, and retail markup.

 

The 17,000 figure is based on a yearly freshening, which means every year you

have another calf, also, only top producers are keep in the milking string,

with subpar producers culled. As a cow may produce 4-5 calves in a factory

farm

setting, half are female so that means only the top 50% are kept as

replacements.

 

Also, that is with Holsteins bred to produce high volumnes under factory farm

conditions, a bred not well suited for VAD purposes. The genetic pool is

selected for high production, but one by product is a weak oxen, that dies

rather easily. Kirtananada went the Holstein route when he went commercial,

one

byproduct of which is the stories of why if birth rate is 50/50 male /female,

why was the herd disportionately female, which it was and is. The weaker

males

dying more easily is a contributing factor.

 

>

> Some questions:

>

> What is the annual milk production in pounds for ISKCON cows. I remember very

> proudly that some of our cows at Gita-nagari were producing far more than the

> national average and were winning blue ribbons at county fairs for their milk

> production, butter fat production and care, etc.

>

 

When they were fresh. After the first year, that production falls off

dramatically. As a result of that keeping the herd average high mentality, so

many calves were fed for the rest of their lives. Incidentally, we had a cow

at

NV, Himavati, who gave 150 lbs in one day. That is about 18 gallons. It was

also common to have cows give give in excess of 20, 000 lbs in a lactation.

 

>

> What is the average milk production life of an American cow?

 

There are bred young, then bred yearly until production falls, typically 4-6

years, then culled by age of about 8. The early pregnacies and push for high

production wears out their bodies.

 

>

> What is the average life of an American cow?

 

For an oxen who escapes veal, about 2 years. Maybe 8 for a milker.

 

>

> What is the average production life of an ISKCON cow?

> What is the average life of an ISKCON cow?

 

I would prefer to answer in the form of what should be the production life and

what should be the average. For the puposes of the Cow Standards, our

thinking

was more that ideally you would have a cow bred to calf at 3 years, with a

lactation running 3-4 years, then another calf, and another long lactation.

 

A homestead breed cow will give in excess of 10,000 pounds (there is a lot of

individual variation) the first year, and 3000-5000 a year for some years

after. A holstein is lucky to give 2000 lbs the second year, so unsuitable

for

the small farm scenario necessary for complete VAD.

 

>

>

> If ISKCON cows produced milk for 10 years and they only averaged 12,000 lbs.

> per year they would give us 120,000 lbs. for their producing years. Which is

> worth about $40,800 for their production life. How much longer do they live

> after production and does the cost of maintenance stay the same?

 

That would require yearly freshening and 10 calves in a lifetime, all of which

would need to be fed for their lifetimes.. They can live as much as 20 years.

Considering that some calves die young, some disease, some accidents, for

the

Standards we took 12 years as an estimate of the average expected life of a

calf,

though a strong case can be made for longer.

 

In other words, if you freshen 5 cows a year, your herd size will be 60

animals. (5 calves x12 years expectancy). So the milk from 5 cows has to

support

60. Unless the production is subsidized, this is extremely unrealistic.

Unfortunately, the pattern that has emerged at ISKCON farms, is that for the

first few years, there is actually a profit, because the ratio of cows to

milkers is quite low. However, as each year goes by, the number of milkers

stays the same, but the herd continues to grow, inevitably leading to a loss.

The the managers get discouraged, abandon the project, and the poor cowherds

get

left with a large amount of cows, little income or community support which

leads

to high death rates due to minimal care, and on top of it, they get accused

of

being the cause of the neglect, rather than honored for staying and minimising

the neglect.

 

Some hard, extremely painful times.

 

 

>

>

> If an ISKCON cow produces 12,000 lbs. of milk per year, that is about 1500

> gallons. That is about $4,080 @ $2.72 per gallon.

 

Again, that is retail. At $1 a gallon that is $1500.

 

>

> If the average annual maintenance cost is $1,000 per cow and they produce

> about $4000 worth of milk, how is the balance of the money budgeted?

 

Also, to push production, much of that extra $500 goes into expensive grain

and

protein supplements necessary to push the production.

 

>

>

> How much do ISKCON devotees pay for a gallon of ISKCON cow milk?

 

That is not easy to answer. At NV, 100% of production goes directdy to temple

kitchen, and no money is exchanged. Feed is bought, and devotees donate

labor.

 

>

>

> If devotees paid only $1.00 more per gallon (than the U.S. average) for

> protected cows milk, an ISKCON cow would produce about $5,580 per year.

 

The $1 per gallon, in my mind, is more of an austerity that devotees would

perform to purify the blood milk they buy. By making that contribution to cow

protection, they are acknolwedging that the ugrakarmic milk is bad, and their

desire to protect cows, while at the same time being practically able to live

their lives as they have to in current circumstances. Personally, I buy blood

milk. For purification, I graze several cows on my land at no charge to the

Cow

Protection program, plus donate time to further cow protection. I feel at

this

point that is better than freshening a cow for my own use.

 

>

>

> I am likely forgetting some key economical points about milk production and

> cow protection as I have not spent much time thinking about these things, but

> if the above could be addressed by our vaisyas it would be most appreciated.

 

Key thing to remember. Since the date you are so fond of quoting that Srila

Prabhupada gave teh order for VAD, in the US, dairy farms have gone from

600,000

to only 170,000 today. That is an incredibly competitive environment, where

even

karmis who salughtered their cull cows and oxen couldn't survive. I hope I

have

addressed some of your questions.

 

>

>

> Thank you very much.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

In other words, if you freshen 5 cows a year, your herd size will be 60

animals. (5 calves x12 years expectancy). So the milk from 5 cows has to

support

60. Unless the production is subsidized, this is extremely unrealistic.

Unfortunately, the pattern that has emerged at ISKCON farms, is that for

the

first few years, there is actually a profit, because the ratio of cows to

milkers is quite low. However, as each year goes by, the number of

milkers

stays the same, but the herd continues to grow, inevitably leading to a

loss.

The the managers get discouraged, abandon the project, and the poor

cowherds

get

left with a large amount of cows, little income or community support which

leads

to high death rates due to minimal care, and on top of it, they get

accused

of

being the cause of the neglect, rather than honored for staying and

minimising

the neglect.

 

Some hard, extremely painful times.

 

 

Prabhu, would you not then agree that the principle should be that a farmer

should make the money from agriculture more than he has been trying to do

from milk? He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this not so

possible because there is not sufficinet manpower to help him produce?

[Guest guest]

Madhava Gosh wrote:

In other words, if you freshen 5 cows a year, your herd size will be 60

animals. (5 calves x12 years expectancy). So the milk from 5 cows has to

support 60.

 

>On 02 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

Unless the production is subsidized, this is extremely unrealistic.

 

Madhava Gosh wrote:

Unfortunately, the pattern that has emerged at ISKCON farms, is that for the

first few years, there is actually a profit, because the ratio of cows to

milkers is quite low. However, as each year goes by, the number of milkers

stays the same, but the herd continues to grow, inevitably leading to a

loss. The the managers get discouraged, abandon the project, and the poor

cowherds get left with a large amount of cows, little income or community

support which leads to high death rates due to minimal care, and on top of

it, they get accused of being the cause of the neglect, rather than honored

for staying and minimising the neglect.

 

>On 02 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

Some hard, extremely painful times. Prabhu, would you not then agree that the

principle should be that a farmer should make the money from agriculture more

than he has been trying to do from milk?

 

No agriculture in that light will also lead to the same scenario. More

manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized means

then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with propagating

this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you will pursue

sense gratification. So is there a preaching engagement going on every day at

your temple? Are you producing the basic essential to sustain the material

body? If not you must be engaged in some activity that is meant to gratify

someone’s senses if not your own. This is what has been going on in ISKCON for

the last 20 years and it will not satiated the eternal soul – so we are in

some anxiety just like the non-devotees. No proper engagement means you will

get into trouble and I need not expand on that with all that has been going on

in ISKCON. Right now most devotees may dabble in preaching or in agriculture

but very few are cent per cent so engaged.

 

>On 02 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this not so possible

because there is not sufficient manpower to help him produce?

 

This is true, but there is also another factor, the cows, they like anyone who

is not engaged will get into trouble. Or as one might say idle hoofs are the

Devils workshop. Cows who are not producing and caring for a calf and

bulls/oxen not using their muscles need an engagement. To do this requires

personnel also. If you milk a cow it requires a milkman (gopa or gopi) to draw

out the milk and process it. When you progress above six cows you will need

another milkman and someone to process the milk received. If half of the

calves are male then there will be three animals to train, this will occupy

one trainer. What are needed are people willing to engage these animals, but

most are not so inclined. There needs to be a change in the heart. All devotee

communities either has to attract those type of persons or they themselves

have to become agrarian based. This also means buying from those Vaisnavas who

are producing.

 

So the solution is those that are inclined to preach should do so, others they

need to be engaged with producing the necessities, which for most apparently

is not much of a priority. If some are offended, please forgive me. Is this

not the truth and did not Srila Prabhupada say if you have money then print

books (someone must distribute them then) or buy land (for producing the

necessities and engaging those not so inclined to philosophical pursuit,

whether human or animal)? Excuse me this will take care of the brahmanas,

vaisyas and sudras, a few will be needed to organize so all goes smoothly and

orderly - there are the ksatriyas. That is everyone.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Prabhu, would you not then agree that the principle should be that a farmer

> should make the money from agriculture more than he has been trying to do

> from milk? He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this not so

> possible because there is not sufficinet manpower to help him produce?

 

Given the extreme competition from milk subsidized by the blood of the cow and

the blood of the Earth in the form of oil, yes, it is impossible to make a

living selling milk, unless it is subsidized.

 

I make a small portion of my income from local sales of produce and flowers.

If

I were young and enthusiatic, I can see the possibility of making a survival

existence that way, especially with value added stuff like crafts and herbal

preparations, etc. With a cow or two milking , sufficient land, and a

subsidy to care for the life of a calf, I could also see even making some

little money from milk. But trying to have a bunch of cows and focus there for

livliehood is a dead end.

[Guest guest]

> So the solution is those that are inclined to preach should do so, others

> they need to be engaged with producing the necessities, which for most

> apparently is not much of a priority.

 

 

Hare Krishna, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Simple living - high thinking - is our slogan.

The simple living is no less preaching than the high thinking, I believe.

Ideally they should go hand in hand, isn´t it?

It turns people off when they find out our talking is not up to our walking.

So you are very much right.

ISKCON should be a very good example in producing it´s own necessities, as

per time, place and circumstance.

ys

[Guest guest]

Rohita das wrote:

 

>No agriculture in that light will also lead to the same scenario. More

>manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized means

>then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with propagating

>this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you will pursue

>sense gratification.

 

Can you explain what you mean when you say:

 

>More manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized

>means then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with

>propagating this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you

>will pursue sense gratification.

 

I'm not quite sure what this paragraph means.

If I understand it correctly you are saying that if you are mechanized you

are not propagating Krsna Consciousness.... I don't agree with this.

 

Let's discuss this first.

[Guest guest]

Radha Krsna wrote

>

> Prabhu, would you not then agree that the principle should be that a

> farmer should make the money from agriculture more than he has been trying

> to do from milk? He shouldn't fall into 'hard times' ideally. Or is this

> not so possible because there is not sufficinet manpower to help him

> produce?

 

I agree but I would rather the term "make a living" rather than "make the

money". The Manu Samhita says one should not sell milk, if we stuck by this

maxim there would not be this problem. As soon as the possibility of making

money is there then the chance of exploitation arises. It is the duty of the

Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk. The Ksatriya

protects his citizens because it is his duty not to exploit them. The

husband protects his wife and daughter because it is his duty.

 

Your servant, Gokula das

[Guest guest]

COM: Radha Krs

 

> Thanks for this , this answers my question on the other recent

> headings

> about this subject, although I think different devotees have different

> ideas

> on this. That's fine - each to his own.

 

There will be different ways things happen because circumstances vary so

much in different climates and economic systems.

 

> Because we may fear that someone may not know what to do with his

> wealth it

> doesn't mean we should discourage him from making a start into

> becoming well

> situated or indeed opulent. This is what society needs. We should be

> doing

> this, not the Sanyassis - the Sanyassis shouldn't have to make any

> money -

> but because we are not - they probably feel they have to.

>

> comments?

 

I am searching for different terminology to express it, but that is

what I was trying to get at by saying you need to build from the bottom

up - the economic base needs to be in place, otherwise everything gets

topsy turvy.

[Guest guest]

On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

 

> It is the duty of the

> Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk.

 

What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day? How

did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

[Guest guest]

>"COM: Radha Krsna (das) ACBSP GB (Great Britain)"

><Radha.Krsna.ACBSP.GB (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>

>Radha.Krsna.ACBSP.GB (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se, Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se,

>Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se

>"WWW: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)" <talavan (AT) com (DOT) org>,

>jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net, "COM: Cow (Protection and related issues)"

><Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>, "COM: Varnasrama development"

><Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>

>Re: Cowslaughter in ISKCON?

>Mon, 3 May 99 05:38 +0900

>

>[Text 2284588 from COM]

>

>Rohita das wrote:

>

> >No agriculture in that light will also lead to the same scenario. More

> >manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized

>means

> >then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with

>propagating

> >this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then you will

>pursue

> >sense gratification.

>

>Can you explain what you mean when you say:

>

> >More manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized, mechanized

> >means then you need engagement because if you are not occupied with

> >propagating this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then

>you

> >will pursue sense gratification.

>

>I'm not quite sure what this paragraph means.

>If I understand it correctly you are saying that if you are mechanized you

>are not propagating Krsna Consciousness.... I don't agree with this.

>

>Let's discuss this first.

>

>The relationship between giving up dependence on what Srila Prabhupada

>referred to as "machine civilization" and advancing in Krsna consciousness,

>was summed up in his farm motto "simple living, high thinking". He

>explained this also in great detail, that it means to completely depend on

>only what one can produce using the bull and the cow, thus living as the

>residents of Vrindavan do. He referred to this repeatedly as ideal life and

>urged us to take it up. He wanted us to base our farms on the village life

>of Vrindavan- we need to give up the brainwashing that civilization means

>dependence on machines- what has this technology accomplished? Massive

>unemployment, which translates into starvation in many countries; future

>starvation as our earth's resources reach the stage of being polluted

>beyond the point of sustaining life; even the so-called lucky ones with

>jobs- what are those jobs?- working in hellish exploitative situations.

>Civilization can sustainably survive and prosper into the far distant

>future, and simultaneously advance spiritually, by developing this culture.

>Srila Prabhupada describes the cow as the source of all wealth in human

>society, because she provides us with all the necessities of life (along

>with the bull), thus solving the economic problem. And because she is the

>emblem and embodiment of the mode of goodness, by solving our economic

>problems through the cow alone, we also develop the mode of goodness-

>which characterizes an ideal situation to develop in Krsna consciousness.

Yes, technology can be used for preaching Krsna consciousness- e.g. printing

books, but it is NOT preaching for our agriculture to be dependent on it

..YS, Niscala dd.

 

 

____

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[Guest guest]

Rohita das wrote

 >More manpower is needed. That is unless you become mechanized,

mechanized means then you need engagement because if you are not occupied

with propagating this Krishna consciousness or producing the essentials then

you will pursue sense gratification.

 

On 3 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

 I'm not quite sure what this paragraph means.

 

Comment:

When engaged in agriculture you need an energy source. Both animals and men to

accomplish the work or a man with a variety of machines to do the labour. If

agriculture follows the mechanized route then those who could have been the

energy source – the field workers and the animals - will have to find some

other engagement. Society is now organized toward increasing material

pleasures – you need and I want. These areas are the biggest employment

opportunities – the entertainment and related fields – all centred on giving

the body pleasure. The animals well off to slaughter, more engagement for my

senses. If devotees are not engaged in working the land or out preaching about

Krsna they are going to go where the money is. Soon they will become attracted

to material activities, Krsna well only when I can find some time (Krsna is

then no longer priority).

 

On 3 May 1999, Radha Krsna wrote:

 If I understand it correctly you are saying that if you are

mechanized you are not propagating Krsna Consciousness.... I don't agree with

this. Let's discuss this first.

 

Comment:

You can be mechanized and Krsna conscious, but if you keep life simple and

fixed up in Krsna conscious philosophy it is easier. So why take the chance?

Mechanization will lead if you are not careful to activities that will

increase your karmic load. A simple life with no or very simple machines will

lessen this load. The bottom line is if a machine takes away the healthy and

proper engagement of man so that he is idle, he then has a choice to preach

about Krsna (the right choice) or to gratify his senses. For those who are not

philosophically (brahmana) inclined the only kind of works to engage in is:

1. Production of essentials (vaisyas),

2. Heavy labour (sudra),

3. The organization and proper management of society (ksatriya)

 

The second and third categories are dependent on the vaisyas. They are the

producers of raw materials, Sudras help in obtaining these things by doing the

heavier work needed. They, the Sudras, can not accomplish anything of

substance they lack the needed drive and their senses divert their attention.

The ksatriyas can organize and have the drive but productivity in materials is

not their propensity, the power of organizing and distributing is more their

forte, but they need the products to do this. Brahmana well they are not so

dependant, no detached is a better word. If it is there ok but if not no

problem.

 

If you have tractor 250 ox power (for examples sake) that means 250 oxen are

unemployed and also 125 teamsters. The oxen will go to slaughter house! And

the teamsters too – ugrakarma work, in some kind of factory. Teamsters are not

going to be brahmanas or ksatriyas, a few maybe vaisyas the majority will be

Sudra. In Mississippi the biggest employer for those of Sudra mentality are

the Casinos, it brings in money and you get to gamble, perfect. If they are

not engaged in work that can elevate their Krsna consciousness then that is

were they will go. Krsna C work being, distributing books and engaging in

other works that will attract others to Krsna. The propagating of the

congregational chanting of Krsna names is the activity all these varnas can do

together, there is no distinction in it. If devotees are not engaged in this

way and they are not engaged in work according to the above four orders then

they will be working for their senses. Just like this computer we are all

sitting at. Its only use is to increase ones Krsna consciousness, but if you

use it for something else it is going to lead to your further bondage. If we

were out there chanting and distributing books so many would becoming. Just

look at the American temples – do you see a bhakta program in each one? Does

every temple have an engagement every day of the week, if they don’t the

devotees in the temple are not fully engaged in preaching. Basically they are

doing some puja and eating, true they have some guests during the week but it

only takes one enthusiastic devotee to preach to them. Just look where are the

American devotees, they are grhastras working outside, occasionally attending

some preaching engagement or some festival. Who are in the temple? East

Europeans and Indians (mostly new devotees, but not made here in America).

Why? We have not been too active in the preaching realm for the last 10-15

years.

 

If we are not engaged in preaching as I have pointed out above, then it stands

to follow we would be engaged in some part of the productive group or helping

them. Are we, lets see – he does paintings, so does he, he is doing hats, he

is laying floors, she is clerking in a store, she is a massage therapist and

he is selling cars in town. Hmmm, … only one is actually engaged in what Srila

Prabhupada would be calling productive work, he is helping to provide shelter.

Sure what they are doing may seem useful, but if you will look closely not

really essential in a Vaisnava society. What they are doing can be engaged in

Krsna’s service, but one can live and glorify Krsna without what they are

providing to society – non-essential. Better they are engaged in essential

work and chant Hare Krsna.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

> On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > It is the duty of the Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the

milk.

>

On 02 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day? >

 

 

Comment:

40 gallons (181.1 litres) of whole milk is required to make 1 gallon (4.55

litres) of ghee. Just check out in Krsna book what was happening to the

yogurt, butter and ghee, also how much was used. Then look in Caitanya

Caritamrta and read about Raghunatha das how he was making arrangements for

feeding so many people and that will tell you where it all went.

 

On 02 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

How did he become so opulent?

 

Comment:

Where ever there is Krsna there is all opulence.

 

On 02 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

Is trade different than "making money"?

 

Comment:

First Canto: 17:39

… Kali asked for something more, and because of his begging, the King gave him

permission to live where there is gold because wherever there is gold there is

also falsity, intoxication, lust, envy and enmity.

Purport

………… Gold-standard currency is based on falsehood because the currency is not

on par with the reserved gold … artificial inflation by the authorities ………

price of commodities becomes artificially inflated. Instead of paper currency,

actual real gold coins should be used for exchange.

 

In the light of the preceding quotes from SB and Srila Prabhupada’s purport

until that comes into place living on the land and trading for essentials are

a better means of controlling the effects of Kali. It is very important that

money become purified by engaging it in the glorification of the Lord or for

feeding His devotees. Should it not be used like that than the five above

associates of Kali will become manifest in the Vaisnava camp. That is the

reason for Rupa Gosvamis formulae; 50% (to vaisnavas- brahmana and ksatriyas)

25% savings and 25% for family. This is not on the profit it is on the direct

income – otherwise in steps Kali.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2284927 from COM]

>

> On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

>

> > It is the duty of the

> > Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk.

>

> What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day? How

> did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

 

The description of his opulences were that he had a lot of milk products.

 

Also, money itself is not Vedic. It was all barter system.

 

Also, it was a different yuga. they were nomads who traveled when they needed

more land. That abundance of land doesn't exist now.

 

Also , they lived in a society where noone was slaughtering cows, or using

oil, so the economic playing field was level.

[Guest guest]

On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

> "WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> > What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day?

How

> > did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

 

 

> The description of his opulences were that he had a lot of milk products.

 

That is not true or at least fully accurate. In Krsna book there is

descriptions of Yasoda's and Nanda's extreme wealth in jewels, jewelry, gold,

silver, silks, opulent foods and spices (obviously from other parts of the

world/Bharatavarsha), marble, . He must also have had immense

cow-protection/bull management assets, i.e., yokes, carts, milk

pails/containers, etc. He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

form of reasonable wages to thousands of cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

shippers/farm workers, etc.

 

 

 

> Also, money itself is not Vedic. It was all barter system.

 

Gold coins were certainly used. Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

The goods produced in Vrindavana were not the only goods they used. They

bought with gold coins/jewels things like silk, marble, coral, silver, etc.

Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble Sudama

brahmana. Why are we somehow against this? Dvaraka, Indraprastha, Krsna and

the Pandavas were extremely opulent with millions of dollars in gold coins and

jewels. When you have a billion people in the city of Dvaraka you cetainly

have immense needs for importing goods and services which were purchased with

currency in whatever form. Millions of gallons of milk had to be shipped into

Dvaraka everyday along with millions of pounds of food, etc. They had highways

and skyscrapers as described in Krsna book.

 

Obviously we are not going to recreate Dvaraka - that is not the point at all

and we need not get lost in that train of thought ("That was then, this is

now"). My opinion is devotees can have opulence, money, jewels, etc. and still

perform devotional service perfectly. Opulence is a QUALITY of Krsna.

 

Greed, lust (including profit, adoration and distinction) and anger are the

problem. Simple living is not the cure-all for those diseases - devotional

service is. There are plenty of "self-sufficient" rural inhabitants who suffer

from the above three diseases, too.

 

I love simple living and farms and woods and country life too, but without

bhakti it is just as material as the city. I would much prefer to live in

Dvaraka as a devotee (or any city) than in the country in maya.

 

 

There are always adjustments to be made in regards to yugas. In my opinion, if

anything, in Kali-yuga we should learn to accept some of the contamination

which we inherited when our unfortunate birth, due to our karma/fault, put us

here and use it constructively for Krsna's service. We are not going to make

it Satya-yuga. We are not against technology.

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2286637 from COM]

>

> On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

>

> > "WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" wrote:

>

> > > What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day?

> How

> > > did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

>

>

> > The description of his opulences were that he had a lot of milk products.

>

> That is not true or at least fully accurate. In Krsna book there is

> descriptions of Yasoda's and Nanda's extreme wealth in jewels, jewelry, gold,

> silver, silks, opulent foods and spices (obviously from other parts of the

> world/Bharatavarsha), marble, . He must also have had immense

> cow-protection/bull management assets, i.e., yokes, carts, milk

> pails/containers, etc. He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

> form of reasonable wages to thousands of cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

> shippers/farm workers, etc.

>

 

BArtered for with milk products, wages paid in kind.

 

>

>

> > Also, money itself is not Vedic. It was all barter system.

>

> Gold coins were certainly used

 

I must have missed that reference. In any case, gold has intrinsic value,

unlike money.

 

> . Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

 

With jewels I can keep my wife happy, decorate the Deities , do healing.

Jewels

have intrinsic value.

 

>

> The goods produced in Vrindavana were not the only goods they used. They

> bought with gold coins/jewels things like silk, marble, coral, silver, etc.

> Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble Sudama

> brahmana. Why are we somehow against this?

 

Not against it. I'm not against paper money. Just you used Nanda Maharajah as

an

example, and I was pointing out how he lived in a different set of

circumstances

where money wasn't used. Of if we count gold coins, at least paper money

wasn't

used.

 

Paper money creates ability to artifically concentrate wealth.

 

Even a gold-standard exchange and currency is bad. Gold-standard currency is

based

on falsehood because the currency is not on a par with the reserved gold. The

basic principle is falsity because currency notes are issued in value beyond

that

of the actual reserved gold. This artificial inflation of currency by the

authorities encourages prostitution of the state economy. The price of

commodities

becomes artificially inflated because of bad money, or artificial currency

notes.

Bad money drives away good money. Instead of paper currency, actual gold coins

should be used for exchange, and this will stop prostitution of gold. Gold

ornaments for women may be allowed by control, not by quality, but by quantity.

This will discourage lust, envy and enmity. When there is actual gold currency

in

the form of coins, the influence of gold in producing falsity, prostitution,

etc.,

will automatically cease. There will be no need of an anticorruption ministry

for

another term of prostitution and falsity of purpose.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 1.17.39

[Guest guest]

On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

> > form of reasonable wages to thousands of

cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

> > shippers/farm workers, etc.

> >

>

> BArtered for with milk products, wages paid in kind.

 

 

I agree but they needed more than milk and some things they needed were paid

for with "money", gold or whatever name.

 

 

> > Gold coins were certainly used

>

> I must have missed that reference. In any case, gold has intrinsic value,

> unlike money.

 

 

No question. Far superior to paper.

 

 

 

> > . Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

>

> With jewels I can keep my wife happy, decorate the Deities , do healing.

> Jewels

> have intrinsic value.

 

 

No question.

 

 

 

 

> > Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble

Sudama

> > brahmana. Why are we somehow against this?

>

> Not against it. I'm not against paper money. Just you used Nanda Maharajah

as

> an

> example, and I was pointing out how he lived in a different set of

> circumstances

> where money wasn't used. Of if we count gold coins, at least paper money

> wasn't

> used.

 

 

The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form, reasonable

remuneration for services or products.

 

 

If we can improve on the present system of paper via bartering...great!

 

I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which sometimes is an

excuse for laziness and space-out.

 

"Srila Prabhupada: Are you under the impression that spiritual life means

voluntarily accepting poverty?

Reporter: Well, I don't know.

Srila Prabhupada: A poverty-stricken man may be materialistic and a wealthy

man may be very spiritual. Spiritual life does not depend on either poverty or

wealth." SSR

[Guest guest]

> On 03 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

>

> > It is the duty of the

> > Vaisya to protect the cow not to make money from the milk.

>

> What did Maharaj Nanda do with all his millions of gallons of milk a day?

> How did he become so opulent? Is trade different than "making money"?

 

Value adding maybe, the gopis would go to sell milksweets. Maybe his wealth

was from grains.

 

On our farm we are trying to come to grips with an economic policy for the

devotees on the farm. We have not milked on this farm since 1995 and have

reduced the herd from 50 to 40 through natural attrition. In the meantime we

have been purchasing blood milk. In our family budget, milk products are our

biggest expense.

 

Two families on the farm have agreed to share in the responsibility of

maintaining a milking cow and have agreed to share the milk at no cost with

the others while production is high. They may value add and sell the product

if they like. I believe that if milk is not a commodity then there is less

incentive to exploit the cow.

 

Milk, what a great gift to give in charity.

 

Your servant, Gokula das.

[Guest guest]

>"WWW: Janesvara (Dasa) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA)" <jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net>

>jdf1 (AT) stsi (DOT) net, Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se,

>Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se

>"COM: Cow (Protection and related issues)" <Cow (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>, "COM:

>Varnasrama development" <Varnasrama.development (AT) com (DOT) bbt.se>

>Re: Cowslaughter in ISKCON?

>Mon, 3 May 99 19:11 -0400

>

>[Text 2287378 from COM]

>

>On 03 May 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

> > He had a million cows. How many bulls? He paid some

> > > form of reasonable wages to thousands of

>cowherds/milkers/manurehandlers/milk

> > > shippers/farm workers, etc.

> > >

> >

> > BArtered for with milk products, wages paid in kind.

>

>

>I agree but they needed more than milk and some things they needed were

>paid

>for with "money", gold or whatever name.

>

>

> > > Gold coins were certainly used

> >

> > I must have missed that reference. In any case, gold has intrinsic

>value,

> > unlike money.

>

>

>No question. Far superior to paper.

>

>

>

> > > . Jewels were also used. What's the difference?

> >

> > With jewels I can keep my wife happy, decorate the Deities , do

>healing.

> > Jewels

> > have intrinsic value.

>

>

>No question.

>

This is not such a problem in Kali- yuga- there's so little of it. Wealth

like anything else can be used if its favorable to Krsna's service. If its

not engaged in Krsna's service, even jewels have no value- like the jewels

on the head of a serpent. They only have value

when combined with Krsna. However, maya is so strong that one may start out

in business, intending to use the profit for Krsna, and be attracted instead

into using it for sense-gratification, then its the source of misfortune.

This has been the tendency. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada desired our devotee

vaisyas to produce food- (the real type) and protect cows, both of which

there is a dire shortage in Kali-yuga, and by doing this gain real wealth.

Vedically, one's wealth is measured by one's stock of grains and one's

number of cows. If these are ample, other types of wealth will be present

automatically. Wealth was stored in the form of golden ornaments on the

bodies of the ladies, but when there was food shortage, they were traded for

food.

>

> > > Krsna gave millions in gold coins and jewels to the simple and humble

>Sudama

> > > brahmana. Why are we somehow against this?

> >

> > Not against it. I'm not against paper money. Just you used Nanda

>Maharajah

>as

> > an

> > example, and I was pointing out how he lived in a different set of

> > circumstances

> > where money wasn't used. Of if we count gold coins, at least paper

>money

> > wasn't

> > used.

>

>

>The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form, reasonable

>remuneration for services or products.

>

>

>If we can improve on the present system of paper via bartering...great!

>

>I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which sometimes is

>an

>excuse for laziness and space-out.

>

>"Srila Prabhupada: Are you under the impression that spiritual life means

>voluntarily accepting poverty?

>Reporter: Well, I don't know.

>Srila Prabhupada: A poverty-stricken man may be materialistic and a wealthy

>man may be very spiritual. Spiritual life does not depend on either poverty

>or

>wealth." No, but why do the brahmanas voluntarily accept vows of poverty?

>Because its entangling, this wealth, - Niscala

>

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

 

> Maybe his wealth

> was from grains.

 

 

No. His wealth was from working his devotee butt off. Perspiration. And

emplying thousands and thousands of others in the milk production "business"

or whatever name you want to give it. Nanda had a million cows! Do you realize

how many gallons of milk, pounds of butter, curd and yogurt that is daily? Was

he just throwing the milk on the ground? I doubt it. How many residents of

Vrindavana were there? Certainly not even close to enough to consume tis

amount of milk products. Wouldn't it seem common sense that Nanda was serving

his king faithfully and producing the milk required by the inhabitants of the

nearby cities who could not produce milk in the city? And the king was

assuring Nanda that all of his necessities were taken care of and much more in

the way of wealth? It was a gigantic enterprise the likes of which we do not

even see nowadays. A MILLION cows! How many millions of acres of land were

being managed? Employees? Hard work every single day.

 

Or do we not really believe this?

 

 

 

> On our farm we are trying to come to grips with an economic policy for the

> devotees on the farm. We have not milked on this farm since 1995 and have

> reduced the herd from 50 to 40 through natural attrition. In the meantime we

> have been purchasing blood milk. In our family budget, milk products are our

> biggest expense.

 

 

I can understand that everyone must be very sad about the situation and that

everyone wishes it could be different. It is sometimes very hard to organize

and instill incentive and inspiration into people to do things that they

otherwise know would be a positive thing.

 

But, with all due respect, this situation does not sound like the typical

vaisya community one would envision for followers of Krsna. I take it that

reducing the herd through "natural attrition" means the cows are dying? 40

cows on a devotee farm, none milking for 4 years, and everyone is buying blood

milk? Hardly the ideal of varnasrama-dharma.

 

I do not mean to criticize the individuals involved (unless they are the

leaders of the community and are mismanaging at the expense of the sacred cows

and bulls) but this just seems so impractical and downright irresponsible.

 

 

I presume what we are saying is that because we cannot inspire our devotees to

take up the task of vaisya responsibilities in the IDEAL manner then just

forget about it all together and let the cows and bulls die "naturally"? At

least they are being protected from cow slaughter?

 

In my opinion it sounds like the same old ISKCON devotee story of clear cut

laziness due to false renunciation of the varnsrama-dharma institution which

requires perspiration from hard work. Renounce the varnas other than

"brahmana" (so-called) and depend upon the karmis to supply all of our needs

while condemning them as fruitive.

 

It would seem far more practical to accept our fallen nature of not being able

to fulfill on the "ideal" of simple living without so-called "ugra-karma" acts

and at least make as much money at agriculture as common farmers do everyday.

We think that we MUST milk by hand and farm with oxen only otherwise we are

failing the "Vedicdevotee" ways so we just give up all together instead of

engaging the modes of nature in the service of the Lord.

 

Take up the tractor and milking machine if you have to in order to earn a

livelihood. Many more young devotees would be inspired to work on farms if

they had the modern technologies afforded to the "karmis" and were paid normal

wages. Make a smooth but practical transition to more "ideal" ways but don't

falsely renounce work. Every occupation has its "faults" but if dovetailed in

the service of the Lord all is purified.

 

What would happen if we had disallowed all book distributors and city temple

devotees from utilizing gasoline? They had to walk wherever they wanted to go

and distribute the books. And the books themselves would have to be published

without the use of electricity. No cars, no airplanes for the sannyasis. Walk

to Mayapura. What would Srila Prabhupada have said about that?

 

Is not devotee farming preaching? ITS ALL PREACHING. If we have to accept some

less than ideal means so be it.

 

 

 

> I believe that if milk is not a commodity then there is less

> incentive to exploit the cow.

 

 

It IS a commodity. Until Satya yuga comes around again I'd get used to the

facts of Kali life. We obviously aren't doing very well at stemming the tide

of Kali's influence even in devotee communities.

 

Transition is the key. Practical, managed, real time transition.

 

 

> Milk, what a great gift to give in charity.

 

 

Charity starts at home.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> The principle behind money was still there - pay, in some form, reasonable

> remuneration for services or products.

>

> If we can improve on the present system of paper via bartering...great!

 

Yes, being production oriented is a necessary thing. the society has to be

fed.

For the immediate future, I am afraid we are stuck with paper money.

 

>

>

> I just want to avoid a voluntary poverty consciousness which sometimes is an

> excuse for laziness and space-out.

 

There is also a lifestyle based on the artificial manipulation of paper and

electronic funds that breeds laziness and being spaced out that needs to be

avoided.

[Guest guest]

> Was

> he just throwing the milk on the ground?

 

Why you are cutting the throat of the cows? After all, you have to get from the

mahi, from the land. So as they are, the animal which you are eating, they are

getting their eatables from the land. Why don't you get your eatables from the

land? Therefore it is said, sarva-kama-dugha mahi. You can get all the

necessities

of your life from land. So dugha means produce. You can produce your food. Some

land should be producing the foodstuff for the animals, and some land should be

used for the production of your foodstuffs, grains, fruits, flowers, and take

milk. Why should you kill these innocent animals? You take. You keep them muda,

happy, and you get so much milk that it will moist, it will make wet the

ground.

This is civilization. This is civilization.

That was being maintained during the time of Maharaja Yudhisthira. That is

being

described. Maharaja Yudhisthira maintained this standard of civilization. Just

see

how the economic problems will be solved simply by one movement, this Krsna

consciousness movement. Try to understand. Mahi. Because mahi will produce

everything.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => HIGHLIGHTS: Regulative principles to fulfill

desires...protect cows and prosper, kill cows and suffer...get all your

necessities fr

 

 

 

[sB 1.10.4]

"During the reign of Maharaja Yudhisthira, the clouds showered all the water

that

people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion.

Due

to its fatty milk bag, and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the

grazing

ground with milk."

Prabhupada: Now, happy attitude. Now the cow are going to be killed. They know

it,

that "We are going to be killed." They're also intelligent living entity. So

how

they can be happy? If some human being concentrated in a camp, and they know

that

"We are going to be killed," can they be happy? So if one is not happy, if the

cow

is not happy, can she supply sufficient milk? No. No. Therefore just they were

happy. Therefore milk was supplied so much that the grazing ground became wet

with

milk. Muddy. With milk, not with water. So we, we have no intelligence how to

live. We... Our Bhagavad-gita says, krsi-go-raksya vaisya. Means

krsi-go-raksya,

to protect cows. Nowadays not to protect cows -- to kill cows. Just see,

business.

Vaisya means businessman. So vaisya's business is krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam

vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [bg. 18.44]. But no go-raksya. Cutting the throat of

go.

This kind of sinful activities are going on, and they want to be happy. Instead

of

giving protection to the cows... In the Bible, also it is said that the animals

are given under the protection of the human being.

Paramahamsa: Man, yeah, yes.

Prabhupada: Man. The protection means to kill them. Just see. They have

interpreted like that, that "The animals have been given to us to kill them and

eat." This is their interpretation.

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation with Indian Ambassador -- September 5,

1973, Stockholm

 

 

 

 

>

>

> But, with all due respect, this situation does not sound like the typical

> vaisya community one would envision for followers of Krsna. I take it that

> reducing the herd through "natural attrition" means the cows are dying? 40

> cows on a devotee farm, none milking for 4 years, and everyone is buying

blood

> milk? Hardly the ideal of varnasrama-dharma.

 

Yet an undeniable reality of a failed attempt to establish VAD that can't just

be

wished away.

 

>

>

> I do not mean to criticize the individuals involved (unless they are the

> leaders of the community and are mismanaging at the expense of the sacred

cows

> and bulls) but this just seems so impractical and downright irresponsible.

>

 

A painful learning experience.

 

>

> Take up the tractor and milking machine if you have to in order to earn a

> livelihood.

 

Been there, done that, and have 200+ cows now instead of 40. It is not

possible

to earn a living from milking cows if you don't slaughter the unproductive

ones,

unless it is subsidized. If the devotees working in the paper money economy

will

purify their wealth by contributing to Trust Funds that subsidize the cow

protection, then it might possibly all work as a team effort.

 

> Many more young devotees would be inspired to work on farms if

> they had the modern technologies afforded to the "karmis" and were paid

normal

> wages. Make a smooth but practical transition to more "ideal" ways but don't

> falsely renounce work. Every occupation has its "faults" but if dovetailed in

> the service of the Lord all is purified.

 

Actually, having been that route at NV, i can say with some authority, the

"modern " technologies are pretty hellish and not many devotees wanted to go

that

way. But I definately agree with you strong position on work. No matter what

the

system, without a productive class, the whole thing will perish.

[Guest guest]

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > Maybe his wealth was from grains.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> No. His wealth was from working his devotee butt off. Perspiration. And

emplying thousands and thousands of others in the milk production "business"

or whatever name you want to give it. Nanda had a million cows! Do you realize

how many gallons of milk, pounds of butter, curd and yogurt that is daily? Was

he just throwing the milk on the ground?

 

Comment:

Indirectly yes, the cows wet the fields with their milk and the Vaisya

community on occasion threw butter lavishly on each other’s bodies without

restriction. SB ch. 5 of the 10th canto.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

I doubt it. How many residents of Vrindavana were there?

 

Comment:

They were living in Gokula a small sub-village of Vrndavan, the population of

the world was much greater then it is today. Just see how many persons

inhabited Dvarka and Mathura. Nanda was in his own right a king, sure he was a

lesser king but still a king with subjects and large tracts of land. He paid

annual taxes to Kamsa because he managed a portion of Kamsa’s kingdom.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

Certainly not even close to enough to consume tis amount of milk products.

Wouldn't it seem common sense that Nanda was serving his king faithfully and

producing the milk required by the inhabitants of the nearby cities who could

not produce milk in the city?

 

Comment:

Very likely according to the evidence Srila Prabhupada gives us in KRSNA BOOK.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

And the king was assuring Nanda that all of his necessities were taken care of

and much more in the way of wealth? It was a gigantic enterprise the likes of

which we do not even see nowadays. A MILLION cows! How many millions of acres

of land were being managed? Employees? Hard work every single day. Or do we

not really believe this?

 

Comment:

It sounds astonishing but is the word of Guru. If one does not believe these

plain statements of KRSNA BOOK it indicates to me he has no faith in

guru-sadhu-sastra and if he does so it is likely he will not be chanting. No

chanting or offering in charity indicates poverty and one is doomed to

repeated birth and death in this material world.

 

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > On our farm we are trying to come to grips with an economic policy for the

devotees on the farm. We have not milked on this farm since 1995 and have

reduced the herd from 50 to 40 through natural attrition. In the meantime we

have been purchasing blood milk. In our family budget, milk products are our

biggest expense.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> I can understand that everyone must be very sad about the situation and that

everyone wishes it could be different. It is sometimes very hard to organize

and instill incentive and inspiration into people to do things that they

otherwise know would be a positive thing.

 

> But, with all due respect, this situation does not sound like the typical

vaisya community one would envision for followers of Krsna. I take it that

reducing the herd through "natural attrition" means the cows are dying? 40

cows on a devotee farm, none milking for 4 years, and everyone is buying blood

milk? Hardly the ideal of varnasrama-dharma.

 

I do not mean to criticize the individuals involved (unless they are the

leaders of the community and are mismanaging at the expense of the sacred cows

and bulls) but this just seems so impractical and downright irresponsible.

 

Comment:

I agree and this is applicable to all farms that are now managing their herds

in the same manner (from what I have seen this is the present standard in

ISKCON).

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

I presume what we are saying is that because we cannot inspire our devotees to

take up the task of vaisya responsibilities in the IDEAL manner then just

forget about it all together and let the cows and bulls die "naturally"? At

least they are being protected from cow slaughter?

 

Comment:

This is what we are doing.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

In my opinion it sounds like the same old ISKCON devotee story of clear cut

laziness due to false renunciation of the varnsrama-dharma institution which

requires perspiration from hard work. Renounce the varnas other than

"brahmana" (so-called) and depend upon the karmis to supply all of our needs

while condemning them as fruitive.

 

Comment:

Call the kettle black and throw out the baby with the bath water. If the shoe

fits wear it.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

It would seem far more practical to accept our fallen nature of not being able

to fulfill on the "ideal" of simple living without so-called "ugra-karma" acts

and at least make as much money at agriculture as common farmers do everyday.

We think that we MUST milk by hand and farm with oxen only otherwise we are

failing the "Vedicdevotee" ways so we just give up all together instead of

engaging the modes of nature in the service of the Lord. Take up the tractor

and milking machine if you have to in order to earn a livelihood. Many more

young devotees would be inspired to work on farms if they had the modern

technologies afforded to the "karmis" and were paid normal wages. Make a

smooth but practical transition to more "ideal" ways but don't falsely

renounce work. Every occupation has its "faults" but if dovetailed in the

service of the Lord all is purified.

 

Comment:

This is also not acceptable. It will lead to involvement with those wrapped up

in returning again for another birth. We have to be ready to give everything

to Krsna without reservation not just a token nod of the head. For that is

what we are doing now. Srila Prabhupada requested us to do it immediately

(what is the count since that day?) not to be dependent (milk machine and

tractor mean this). “Our principle we are against nothing and for nothing.

Only for Krsna. We want what ever is favourable for Krsna.” So we must be

ready to perspire, give substantial recognition to the Real Proprietor by our

charity and always decorate our tongue with His holy names. We must have full

faith in guru and Krsna that nothing is impossible, if we act in that way all

will come to be as it should be.

 

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

What would happen if we had disallowed all book distributors and city temple

devotees from utilizing gasoline? They had to walk wherever they wanted to go

and distribute the books. And the books themselves would have to be published

without the use of electricity. No cars, no airplanes for the sannyasis. Walk

to Mayapura. What would Srila Prabhupada have said about that? Is not devotee

farming preaching? ITS ALL PREACHING. If we have to accept some less than

ideal means so be it.

 

Comment;

It is all preaching only as long as the results are given away in charity.

Those activities were all engaged in without expectation of remuneration, or

in pursuance of giving Krsna to others. All ones endeavour to glorify the

Lord. If you get 50 gallons of milk a day then 25 must be given to the temple

administrator who will direct the temple brahmanas to cook and offer 12.5

gallons to the Deities. The other 12.5 gallons he will see is distributed to

the less fortunate. Twelve and a half gallons you are to use for your families

needs (milk, butter, etc.) if you are unable to use then this portion you must

sell/trade for the rest of your needs. The last 12.5 gallons are to be turned

into ghee and stored in case of emergency. You must do this with the results

of all your sweat. The renounced orders (brahmacari, vanaprasta and sannyas)

can only take what is needed for simple sustenance and get no material

returns. So if you want to live above the poverty level you really got to

sweat or inherit it from your ancestors (who had to sweat, some one has to

sweat). But remember sadhana comes first and then the emotional needs of the

family members. Followed by sweating. The higher the standard you want the

more you have to sweat. Follow in the path of Bhaktivinode Thakura.

 

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > I believe that if milk is not a commodity then there is less incentive to

exploit the cow.

 

On 04 May 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> It IS a commodity. Until Satya yuga comes around again I'd get used to the

facts of Kali life. We obviously aren't doing very well at stemming the tide

of Kali's influence even in devotee communities. Transition is the key.

Practical, managed, real time transition.

 

Comment:

It is a commodity, a symbol of our wealth. If the number of cows are decreased

and you depend on the non-devotees for milk or diesel you are in the same boat

destined to become stuck on the wheel of samsara. This is the practically of

the situation. Gaudiya means no compromise on the order of guru. We are not

doing well because we have not got full faith in the holy name and the

directions of guru. It will require a lot of sweat and anxiety, it is a test

of our sincerity. The way back home is narrow, rocky and you are tested at

every step be worthy and do not take to the wider and less rocky ways that

only lead back again to this material world.

 

On 04 May 1999, Gokula das wrote:

> > Milk, what a great gift to give in charity.

 

Charity starts at home.

 

Comment:

Remember whose home this is, it is Krsna’s.