RE: Child molester

[Guest guest]

At 06:18 AM 2/15/02 -1000, Raghunata (John) Anudasa wrote:

>Ditto. I used the term to explain the quality of Ananta Rupa's care in

>the other areas of his administration. He does excellent work as an

>administrator etc because he loves what he does. The quality of his care

>is in fact impressive and so leaves those who have seen his program

>disarmed into recognizing what he is doing as a child molester. This is

>exactly what happened in Vrindavan guru-kula. He was doing such a great

>job as a teacher that it took Dhanur dhara years to accept that he was

>also molesting the kids. I think the same is true of others who will

>hear these reports about him but will find it hard to act because of the

>job they see him doing as an administrator.

 

Yes--these are truly creepy people.

 

Babhru das

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Raghunata (John) Anudasa wrote:

> administrator etc because he loves what he does. The quality of his care

> is in fact impressive and so leaves those who have seen his program

> disarmed into recognizing what he is doing as a child molester. This is

> exactly what happened in Vrindavan guru-kula.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam, 10.72.19:

 

What can the tolerant not bear?

What will the wicked not do?

What will the magnanimous not give away?

Who is the outsider to those with equal vision?

[Guest guest]

At 11:29 AM 2/15/02 -1000, you wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, Raghunata (John) Anudasa wrote:

> > administrator etc because he loves what he does. The quality of his care

> > is in fact impressive and so leaves those who have seen his program

> > disarmed into recognizing what he is doing as a child molester. This is

> > exactly what happened in Vrindavan guru-kula.

>

> Srimad-Bhagavatam, 10.72.19:

>

> What can the tolerant not bear?

> What will the wicked not do?

> What will the magnanimous not give away?

> Who is the outsider to those with equal vision?

 

Bingo! (I love this verse!)

 

Babhru

[Guest guest]

At 06:54 AM 2/18/02 -0500, Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) wrote:

>What does it mean that "the child

>doesn't fight it".

 

Usually that they are too afraid. There are numerous reports of this from

the Vrindavan gurukula as well as from the non-ISKCON child molestation and

rape literatures.

 

Not fighting and not reporting sexual abuse doesn't mean the child "likes

it". It's still one of the most damaging things one can do to a child.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

I'm surprised this to even see this discussion. How someone can not know

this much at this point is almost beyond my comprehention.

 

We were 6 to 13 year old kids 10,000 miles away from our parents in

third world country, in a village where we did what we were told, when

they told it, or life became full of pain, starvation, beatings, work,

no clothing, bedding etc. How can someone not know this already?

 

 

India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net [india.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of

Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley, CA - USA)

Monday, February 18, 2002 5:46 AM

GBC Unmoderated; India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum)

Re: Child molester

 

At 06:54 AM 2/18/02 -0500, Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN)

wrote:

>What does it mean that "the child

>doesn't fight it".

 

Usually that they are too afraid. There are numerous reports of this

from

the Vrindavan gurukula as well as from the non-ISKCON child molestation

and

rape literatures.

 

Not fighting and not reporting sexual abuse doesn't mean the child

"likes

it". It's still one of the most damaging things one can do to a child.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

I have wondered about this as well. Is sexual molestation a fair price

to pay in place of hunger, beatings and living on the streets in India

in their severe climate. I finally realized that you must take a stand

on the issue to demonstrate that there is never a justifiable reason or

reasons to look the other way no matter if they be a big guru like

Bhavananda or a seemingly erriplacable sumnaritan like Ananta Rupa. A

good example is murder. Once you have crossed that line, it does not

matter what else you have done whether it be a guru or taken care of

10,000 orphans. Child molestation is murder of a childs life in all

their identity and prospects.

 

As for the school, I think that it is far along enough that it would now

continue without him.

 

 

India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net [india.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On Behalf Of

Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN)

Monday, February 18, 2002 1:54 AM

GBC Unmoderated; India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum)

Child molester

 

On 15 Feb 2002, Raghunata John wrote:

 

> Ditto. I used the term to explain the quality of Ananta Rupa's care in

> the other areas of his administration. He does excellent work as an

> administrator etc because he loves what he does. The quality of his

care

> is in fact impressive and so leaves those who have seen his program

> disarmed into recognizing what he is doing as a child molester.

 

> Madhusudani dasi

> Just to clarify; Ananta Rupa can hardly be classified as a lover. If

he

> is

> having sex with those boys, he is a child molester . Consensual sex

> between

> two adult males is not the same as sex between an adult authority

figure

>

> and a child. It's abuse, even if the child does not fight it.

> Ys,

 

The question is: are the children happy? What does it mean that "the

child

doesn't fight it". What would have happened to these kids if they were

not

taken care by Ananta Rupa's "loving care"? Do the orphans have a better

choice

practically? --Ak

[Guest guest]

At 06:37 AM 2/18/02 -1000, Raghunata (John) Anudasa wrote:

 

>We were 6 to 13 year old kids 10,000 miles away from our parents in

>third world country, in a village where we did what we were told, when

>they told it, or life became full of pain, starvation, beatings, work,

>no clothing, bedding etc.

 

The present situation at the orphanage is similar - except those boys don't

have any parents at all. They must be horribly frightened and lonely. To

whom would they go? What would they say? Would they be believed? And what

would be the consequences/punishment for telling? It's a molester's dream

set-up and an absolute hell for those poor orphans.

 

Dhira Govinda Prabhu, how can we obtain the names and addresses of their

funders?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

On 18 Feb 2002, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

Not fighting and not reporting sexual abuse doesn't mean the child "likes

it". It's still one of the most damaging things one can do to a child. [---]

It's a molester's dream set-up and an absolute hell for those poor orphans.

 

I don’t think so, although it can be. The devotee who knows that molester was

talking about "loving concern". I was surprised when he said that. But when a

mother or a sister is raped in front of the child eyes or the child sees his

father and brother tortured diabolically, it is much more horrible than a

child who is abused "lovingly"; if this has any meaning for us, in the XXI

century of the Western civilization. I doubt.

 

I am certainly not minimizing the horror that child molestation is to our

privilege mind, but the children concern me. “My question is: are the children

happy?” If any destruction of that vicious institution is prepared, it has to

be for the better. And I did not hear any talks about that. What I know

however, like in Bresil, for example, that kids live a hellish life when

abandoned to themselves. That's hell! Do you think that they will not like the

"living care" and the nice set up (I imagine) that this caring devotees offer

to the orphans? --Ak

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> > The topic is something that is well known, however it isn't

> > necessarily everyone's concern.

>

> Yes, it's true that some people seem to have a knee-jerk reaction

> when they hear about the topic. Instead of attempting to learn more

> about this horror and how to prevent it from recurring, they are

> quick to point out that "it happens everywhere" (the kali yuga

> argument) or "it didn't happen to everyone" (the distraction

> argument). Such hard-heartedness often becomes a real stumbling

> block - usually to one's own advancement.

 

I think you confuse being 'informed' about the topic with self

righteously wallowing in it to make a profile for oneself.

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Braja wrote:

> you feel everyone is conscious of, aware of, because it happened to you. Our

> own experiences are often foremost in our minds, and with something of this

> nature it is natural to expect that everyone be aware of it and know about

> it.

 

Much the same could be said about Krsna consciousness itself. I've

been places in North America, believe it or not, where many people I've

talked to have never even heard of Hare Krsna before. There's a lot of

real preaching to be done, even in places we assume Krsna consciousness is

already well-established--including our own temples. If we each focus on

doing so by personal example, effectively, our (present) need for this

kind of discussion will be much less likely. Maybe this is a good place

to start:

 

"He who sees everything in relation to the Supreme Lord, who

sees all living entities as His parts and parcels, and who sees the

Supreme Lord within everything never hates anything or any being. One who

always sees all living entities as spiritual sparks, in quality one with

the Lord, becomes a true knower of things. What, then, can be illusion or

anxiety for him?" (Isopanisad 6, 7)

 

"He is a perfect yogi who, by comparison to his own self,

sees the true equality of all beings, in both their happiness and their

distress, O Arjuna!" (Bhagavad-gita, 6.32)

 

"Being purified by his intelligence and controlling the mind with

determination, giving up the objects of sense gratification, being freed

from attachment and hatred, one who lives in a secluded place, who eats

little, who controls his body, mind and power of speech, who is always in

trance and who is detached, free from false ego, false strength, false

pride, lust, anger, and acceptance of material things, free from false

proprietorship, and peaceful--such a person is certainly elevated to the

position of self-realization. One who is thus transcendentally situated

at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never

laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every

living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me."

(Bhagavad-gita, 18.54)

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

Hare Krsna,

 

Mukunda Datta dasa

[Guest guest]

At 01:23 PM 2/18/02 -0500, Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN) wrote:

 

>I don't think so, although it can be. The devotee who knows that molester was

>talking about "loving concern".

 

I don't think Raghu meant "loving concern" seriously - at least not in the

way that most of us define that term. Raghu, perhaps you can help clarify this?

 

>it is much more horrible than a

>child who is abused "lovingly";

 

I think that's a contradiction in terms. Abuse can not be done lovingly. It

strikes me as almost even sicker for a child to be forced into be

penetrated by someone who pretends that what they're engaging in is a

loving relationship. For the child this is not "love"; it's humiliating,

disgusting, scary and often very painful, especially if it's anal sex.

Forced oral sex is no less humiliating or disgusting, particularly if it

occurs to ejaculation. Just think about it for a moment, and I'm sure you

will realize that this is about as far from "love" as you can get.

 

Sorry to be so graphic, but this description is nothing compared to what

those poor kids had (have?) to endure and it turns my stomach to think that

it could be romanticized or justified just because these kids have such

horrible prospects outside the orphanage too. Being abused and starving

outside vs. being abused and fed inside, is not really the choice we should

be contemplating. Abuse is abuse and it's wrong, wherever it happens. There

is nothing that can justify it - however "loving" the abuser may seem.

 

Now, where is this orphanage located and who is the ISKCON GBC there?

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

 

 

>if this has any meaning for us, in the XXI

>century of the Western civilization. I doubt.

>

>I am certainly not minimizing the horror that child molestation is to our

>privilege mind, but the children concern me. "My question is: are the children

>happy?" If any destruction of that vicious institution is prepared, it has to

>be for the better. And I did not hear any talks about that. What I know

>however, like in Bresil, for example, that kids live a hellish life when

>abandoned to themselves. That's hell! Do you think that they will not like the

>"living care" and the nice set up (I imagine) that this caring devotees offer

>to the orphans? --Ak

[Guest guest]

Raghunnatha wrote:

>>I'm surprised this to even see this discussion. How someone can not

>>know this much at this point is almost beyond my comprehention.

>>We were 6 to 13 year old kids 10,000 miles away from our parents in

>>third world country, in a village where we did what we were told, when

>>they told it, or life became full of pain, starvation, beatings, work,

>>no clothing, bedding etc. How can someone not know this already?

 

>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Braja wrote:

>you feel everyone is conscious of, aware of, because it happened to you. Our

>own experiences are often foremost in our minds, and with something of this

>nature it is natural to expect that everyone be aware of it and know about

>it.

 

 

The conditions under which the victims had to suffer should be common

knowledge in light of :

1. numerous accounts that have been posted all over the web for the past 8

years

2. GBC resolutions on this topic

3. the GBC's appointed taskforce report which was released all over COM and

ISKCON temples

4. the establishment of the office of child protection and their many news

releases

5. the many trainings of investigators and judges that have taken place all

over the world

6. the lawsuit filed by gurukula victims

7. the numerous newspaper articles published on this topic (many of which

have been reposted on COM)

8. the recent ISKCON bankruptcy filing, which included press releases

referring to the gurukula abuse

 

among other recent events. It seems almost incomprehensible that any

ISKCON member missed all of this. Guess it goes to show that lots more

education and awareness raising work remains to be done.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> The topic is something that is well known, however it isn't necessarily

> everyone's concern.

 

Yes, it's true that some people seem to have a knee-jerk reaction when they

hear about the topic. Instead of attempting to learn more about this horror

and how to prevent it from recurring, they are quick to point out that "it

happens everywhere" (the kali yuga argument) or "it didn't happen to

everyone" (the distraction argument). Such hard-heartedness often becomes a

real stumbling block - usually to one's own advancement.

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> But when a mother or a sister is raped in front of the child eyes or the

child

> sees his father and brother tortured diabolically, it is much more

> horrible than a child who is abused "lovingly"; if this has any meaning

> for us, in the XXI century of the Western civilization. I doubt.

 

I have a strong feeling that one cannot speculate on this one -- who suffers

more under which conditions. There are also kids who kill their closest

relatives, as a matter of fact.

 

> I am certainly not minimizing the horror that child molestation is to our

> privilege mind, but the children concern me. “My question is: are the

> children happy?” If any destruction of that vicious institution is

> prepared, it has to be for the better. And I did not hear any talks about

> that. What I know however, like in Bresil, for example, that kids live a

> hellish life when abandoned to themselves. That's hell! Do you think that

> they will not like the "living care" and the nice set up (I imagine) that

> this caring devotees offer to the orphans?

 

That occures not only in Brasil, it takes place in 1st world countries, like

Germany, as well. I think to discuss whether a child is happy under a

"loving care" of an abuser or not is irrelevant here. Children are very

flexible and prone to adjust to *any* situation in order to survive. What

should be our concern, however, is to foresee the consequences of the

questionable situation the kids are in and take the right steps.

 

 

Viraja

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Braja wrote:

> > >On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Braja wrote:

> > >you feel everyone is conscious of, aware of, because it happened to you.

> > >Our own experiences are often foremost in our minds, and with something

> > >of this nature it is natural to expect that everyone be aware of it and

> > >know about it.

> >

> > The conditions under which the victims had to suffer should be common

> > knowledge in light of : <snip>

>

> The topic is something that is well known, however it isn't necessarily

> everyone's concern. It is quite incorrect to assume that what is your own

> area of concern isn't everyone else's. That does not, however, make those

> who do not show the same level of interest as you 'wrong' or 'ignorant' or

> 'uneducated' or 'lacking knowledge'. There are other matters - more

> important to some people - that need attending to. This is not the only

> thing happening in ISKCON, or in the world for that matter. There's no need

> to become indignant about someone's seeming lack of interest.

 

Here too, it seems Krsna agrees with you (Bhagavata, 11.28.1):

 

"One should neither praise nor criticize the conditioned natures

of others. One should see that because of the meeting of material nature and

the living entity, the universe is acting uniformly."

 

Paramananda Puri and the other elders of Lord Caitanya cited this

verse before Mahaprabhu. Everyone has his or her place, which is what makes

the Lord's creation purnam, i.e., perfect and complete. However, this

doesn't make them all one, especially for us conditional souls; as Krsna

elsewhere says (11.20.26):

 

"It is firmly declared that the steady adherence of

transcendentalists to their respective spiritual positions constitutes

real piety and that sin occurs when a transcendentalist neglects his

prescribed duty. One who adopts this standard of piety and sin, sincerely

desiring to give up all past association with sense gratification, is able

to subdue materialistic activities, which are by nature impure."

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Braja wrote:

> Perhaps if the same energy that has gone into this 'issue', which you so

> laboriously detailed, went into one's own development of Krishna

> consciousness, there wouldn't be a need for such discussion. Imagine how

> pure one's consciousness would if those 8 years you mentioned were spent in

> advancing one's spiritual consciousness, rather than bickering over email

> about the unavoidable factors of the material energy? That's the kind of

> 'issue' I'm interested in promoting.

 

So is the Mundaka Upanisad. As "vyavasayatmika buddhi" isn't an

easy practice to assimilate for those of us raised on television, sex, and

other foolishness in general, the following passage may help us with our

determination to stay on task (Mundaka 2.1.2-3):

 

"That intense brightness which is smaller than microsopic, in

which rest all the worlds as well as those within them, is the imperishable

brahman, life itself--immortal, and yet speech and mind too. Understand

that it is *that* we must aim for. Shoot for that! Taking the bow of the

great weapon of the Upanisads, Om, and fixing on it the arrow of the self, aim

for brahman, with one-pointed attention focused upon it."

 

Just to clarify exactly what (or rather Who) this Brahman is, we've all

been blessed by Srila Raghupati Upadhyaya as follows (Padyavali, 126):

 

srutim apare smrtim itare

bharatam anye bhajantu bhava-bhitah |

aham iha nandam vande

yasyalinde param brahma ||

 

"Some accept only the srutis, others strictly abide by the smrtis;

still others, fearing material existence, worship the Mahabharata. But as

far as I am concerned, I worship Maharaja Nanda, in whose courtyard the

Param brahma is now playing."

 

It isn't easy to get His bhakti, but He never, ever, ignores those who are

serious. Hare Krsna,

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Braja wrote:

> Bg 5:25 is very clear also in this regard:

> "Those who are beyond the dualities that arise from doubts, whose minds are

> engaged within, who are always busy working for the welfare of all living

> beings, and who are free from all sins achieve liberation in the Supreme".

> Purport:

> "Only a person who is fully in Krsna consciousness can be said to be engaged

> in welfare work for all living entities. When a person is actually in the

> knowledge that Krsna is the fountainhead of everything, then when he acts in

> that spirit he acts for everyone. The sufferings of humanity are due to

> forgetfulness of Krsna as the supreme enjoyer, the supreme proprietor, and

> the supreme friend.....A person engaged only in ministering to the physical

> welfare of human society cannot factually help anyone. Temporary relief of

> the external body and the mind is not satisfactory. The real cause of one's

> difficulties in the hard struggle for life may be found in one's

> forgetfulness of his relationship with the Supreme Lord."

 

Bhagavata, 11.2.37 provides another clear proof of this; only

those who turn away from, or try to evade Krsna, experience fear and it's

consequences.

 

MDd

[Guest guest]

Ditto

 

 

GBC.Unmoderated (AT) pamho (DOT) net [GBC.Unmoderated (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On

Behalf Of Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley, CA - USA)

Monday, February 18, 2002 11:25 AM

GBC Unmoderated

Cc: CAP (Child Abuse Prevention)

Re: Child molester

 

Raghunnatha wrote:

>>I'm surprised this to even see this discussion. How someone can not

>>know this much at this point is almost beyond my comprehention.

>>We were 6 to 13 year old kids 10,000 miles away from our parents in

>>third world country, in a village where we did what we were told,

when

>>they told it, or life became full of pain, starvation, beatings,

work,

>>no clothing, bedding etc. How can someone not know this already?

 

>On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Braja wrote:

>you feel everyone is conscious of, aware of, because it happened to

you. Our

>own experiences are often foremost in our minds, and with something of

this

>nature it is natural to expect that everyone be aware of it and know

about

>it.

 

 

The conditions under which the victims had to suffer should be common

knowledge in light of :

1. numerous accounts that have been posted all over the web for the past

8

years

2. GBC resolutions on this topic

3. the GBC's appointed taskforce report which was released all over COM

and

ISKCON temples

4. the establishment of the office of child protection and their many

news

releases

5. the many trainings of investigators and judges that have taken place

all

over the world

6. the lawsuit filed by gurukula victims

7. the numerous newspaper articles published on this topic (many of

which

have been reposted on COM)

8. the recent ISKCON bankruptcy filing, which included press releases

referring to the gurukula abuse

 

among other recent events. It seems almost incomprehensible that any

ISKCON member missed all of this. Guess it goes to show that lots more

education and awareness raising work remains to be done.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

I appreciate what you are trying to say, but what I have found having

been party to these kinds of situations and considerations dozens of

times is that such considerations only go to blur the intensity of

action required to stop such abuse and clearly communicate the gravity

of it. You can consider these pjoints after they are in court.

 

raghu

 

 

GBC.Unmoderated (AT) pamho (DOT) net [GBC.Unmoderated (AT) pamho (DOT) net] On

Behalf Of Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN)

Monday, February 18, 2002 8:23 AM

GBC Unmoderated; India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum)

Re: Child molester

 

On 18 Feb 2002, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

Not fighting and not reporting sexual abuse doesn't mean the child

"likes

it". It's still one of the most damaging things one can do to a child.

[---]

It's a molester's dream set-up and an absolute hell for those poor

orphans.

 

I don't think so, although it can be. The devotee who knows that

molester was

talking about "loving concern". I was surprised when he said that. But

when a

mother or a sister is raped in front of the child eyes or the child sees

his

father and brother tortured diabolically, it is much more horrible than

a

child who is abused "lovingly"; if this has any meaning for us, in the

XXI

century of the Western civilization. I doubt.

 

I am certainly not minimizing the horror that child molestation is to

our

privilege mind, but the children concern me. "My question is: are the

children

happy?" If any destruction of that vicious institution is prepared, it

has to

be for the better. And I did not hear any talks about that. What I know

however, like in Bresil, for example, that kids live a hellish life when

abandoned to themselves. That's hell! Do you think that they will not

like the

"living care" and the nice set up (I imagine) that this caring devotees

offer

to the orphans? --Ak

[Guest guest]

Braja,

 

I don't know where you get your info from on the guru-kula's I went to

and when I went to them. You obviously don't know me or my generation

and yet you talk as if you do. Let me clarify.

 

You say:

>But it's not the case - especially because it was not the experience of

>everyone at that school.

 

Of my generation of about 400, that was the experience about 80% of the

time. For you to even suggest otherwise is to show your ignorance of the

topic.

 

You then say

">That is to be remembered at all times. It happened to some, and not to

all."

 

At the time I was there, the experience was universal for All but maybe

5%. Please tell me then, what years, which kulis, which schools are you

talking about because you are not talking about the ones I went to. I

can give you all the names of all the students, all the places, times,

and incidents. Sorry Braja, who ever you have been getting your

information from has seriously distorted the facts to you.

 

You say:

>That life for you became "full of pain, starvation,

>beatings, work, no clothing, bedding etc." is not the case for many at

the

>same school, at the same time.

 

Of my generation, at my schools, these were universal experiences "same

school, at the same time."

 

You say:

">It doesn't make what happened to you any less acceptable, it's simply

>another perspective that needs to be maintained."

 

Sorry, there is no other perspective. You may have additional

considerations to what else took place, but that was in addition to the

abuse, not separate from it. YOU have failed to recognized the gravity,

extent and nature of the problem. It's good you chimed in. Now you know.

 

You say:

>With all due respect, it's not so surprising. It is obviously something

that

>you feel everyone is conscious of, aware of, because it happened to

you. Our

>own experiences are often foremost in our minds, and with something of

this

nature it is natural to expect that everyone be aware of it and know

about

it.

 

If you have any 'due respect,' then take my experience as authoritative

on the topic.

 

raghu

[Guest guest]

It is again symptomatic of the general lack of concern in ISKCON with women

and children. Praharana dd

 

>

> Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley, CA - USA)

> [sMTP:Madhusudani.Radha.JPS (AT) pamho (DOT) net]

> Sent: February 18, 2002 06:25

> To: CAP (Child Abuse Prevention); GBC Unmoderated

> Subject: Re: Child molester

>

>

> >

> > The topic is something that is well known, however it isn't necessarily

> > everyone's concern.

>

> Yes, it's true that some people seem to have a knee-jerk reaction when

> they

> hear about the topic. Instead of attempting to learn more about this

> horror

> and how to prevent it from recurring, they are quick to point out that "it

> happens everywhere" (the kali yuga argument) or "it didn't happen to

> everyone" (the distraction argument). Such hard-heartedness often becomes

> a

> real stumbling block - usually to one's own advancement.

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

CONFIDENTIAL: ATTORNEY CLIENT PRIVILEGE AND WORK PRODUCT

 

Dhira Govinda dasa

Association for the Protection of Vaisnava Children (APVC)

P.O. Box 1438

Alachua, Florida 32616-1438

Tel: 386-418-0882 FAX: 386-418-0982

email: dgovinda (AT) aol (DOT) com

 

Feb. 19, 2002

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

In a message dated 2/18/02 12:55:14 PM, mariaekstrand (AT) earthlink (DOT) net writes:

 

<<

>We were 6 to 13 year old kids 10,000 miles away from our parents in

>third world country, in a village where we did what we were told, when

>they told it, or life became full of pain, starvation, beatings, work,

>no clothing, bedding etc.

 

The present situation at the orphanage is similar - except those boys don't

have any parents at all. They must be horribly frightened and lonely. To

whom would they go? What would they say? Would they be believed? And what

would be the consequences/punishment for telling? It's a molester's dream

set-up and an absolute hell for those poor orphans.

 

Dhira Govinda Prabhu, how can we obtain the names and addresses of their

funders? >>

 

I will be going to India in a few days and may not be very responsive on

email till the end of March. I'm copying this posting to Anumanta Prabhu.

 

Anumanta- Please send to Madhusudani Radha Prabhu information from the files

of Manihar and Ananta Rupa regarding funding for the orphanages. I remember

there is a newspaper article that indicates that Prince Charles financially

supports Manihar's orphanage, and that the Indian government is also

supportive. I don't recall any additional information in the file

specifically about funding. Please FAX to Madhusudani Radha the newspaper

article.

 

Thank you for your attention in this matter. Hare Krsna.

 

Your servant,

 

Dhira Govinda dasa

[Guest guest]

On 18 Feb 2002, Raghunata John wrote:

 

Haribol raghu,

Sorry for being a disturbance. And good luck in your fight. Definitely,

justice has to be called. --ak

[Guest guest]

Raghunatha wrote:

 

> Don't mistake informed information as arrogance. You should know the

> difference.

 

With all due respect to your suffering as a child in the guru-kula,

but I fail to see what the attempt to understand the suffering of

molested children in ISKCON (or any children for that matter) in terms

of Krishna consciousness, has to do with being uninformed. To me it

seems much more uninformed to demand that the molested children be

seen as nothing else but innocent victims in the hands of a cruel and

inhumane institution. How is that going to help you ultimately process

the traumas of your childhood and get on with your life?

 

Any modern psychologist with respect for him or herself will tell you

that the most important factor in handling the traumas of ones

childhood is to stop seeing yourself as a victim and start taking

responsibility for your own activities. You may say, how can I take

responsibilities for my own actions when I am five years old?, but the

answer is that you can. Especially when you get older and more wise

you can realize that it was your own activities in a past life that

put you in a position the next life where you suffered at the hands of

cruel teachers.

 

I realize that this is an extremely unpopular view in the present

climate, but I want you to understand that this in no way means that I

am not sympathetic to your plight or that I think the teachers were

not at fault and should not be punished for their cruel acts towards

the children.

 

It is very easy to get some unenlightened person to pat you on the

back and tell you how horrible it is that you suffered abuse, and

let's go get the bastards, but frankly that will not really help you

or anyone else. That will only help you to become more embittered and

cynical towards Krishna consciousness, and serve to entangle you more

in your own past.

 

I am not out to smash you or berate you, please don't take this text

like that. I weep when I hear what happened to our children, but

sometimes I also get a little angry constantly hearing about it as if

ISKCON wasn't seriously trying to do something about it. My childhood

was not a dance on roses, either. I grew up with an alcoholic mother

and had to take care of my two kid brothers from an early age because

she always stayed out partying and when she finally came home she

brought a new bum who wasn't afraid of slapping us around.

 

Actually yours and my suffering is puny compared to the way most

people presently suffer on this planet. When I came to Krishna

consciousness my traumatic past all of a sudden became very

insignificant and in light of Srila Prabhupada's wonderful teachings I

was able to shed it like a bad dream. I realize it may not be the same

for you, since you grew up in the system and thus have not had the

chance to compare your two lives, but I can guarantee you that at some

point you will be very grateful for having been given the chance of a

birth into Krishna consciousness.

 

Again, I am not trying to berate you, but you also have to acknowledge

that I may have some experience you can derive some benefit from. I

have myself three children. One son, who is now 22 years old, whom I

had before I became a devotee, and a daughter and a son who are 13 and

11 respectively, who are devotees and attend the guru-kula in Sweden.

Before I became a devotee I also worked with kids who were very

troubled, whose parents spent their days at the local bar. I guess

what I am trying to say is that I have experience with children. I

like children, and now I know that the greates gift any child can

receive is the gift of Krishna consciousness.

 

I understand that you are a good devotee, and I wish you good luck

with your life. I hope you will or have come to terms with your

troubles past. Please don't think that anyone in ISKCON is not

sympathetic towards our children. They are after all the future of

Srila Prabhupada's mission, so you have a very unique and responsible

task ahead of you in life.

 

Mukunda Datta Prabhu quoted a verse that I think is wonderful in

helping us to understand what is really important in life. I hope you

don't mind me quoting it again.

 

"He who sees everything in relation to the Supreme Lord, who

sees all living entities as His parts and parcels, and who sees the

Supreme Lord within everything never hates anything or any being. One

who always sees all living entities as spiritual sparks, in quality

one with the Lord, becomes a true knower of things. What, then, can

be illusion or anxiety for him?" (Isopanisad 6, 7)

 

 

Ys, Jahnu das

[Guest guest]

At 11:43 PM 2/18/02 -1000, Raghunata (John) Anudasa wrote:

 

>Braja,

>

>I don't know where you get your info from on the guru-kula's I went to

>and when I went to them. You obviously don't know me or my generation

>and yet you talk as if you do. Let me clarify.

>

>If you have any 'due respect,' then take my experience as authoritative

>on the topic.

 

Burke Rochford has researched this and found results similar to what Raghu

describes. The gurukula where no abuse occurred is very difficult to find.

I know of two: the one in Honolulu, Hawaii, which I managed from 1979-84,

and the one in San Diego, California, which was managed by my wife, Satyaki

from 1987-94. I hope there are more. If someone knows of any others, it

might be nice to hear.

 

In the meantime, those of us who have little or no experience with the

gurukulas are ill advised to dismiss their experience. We need to listen

and to act. (I can't believe we still feel the need to say this!)

 

Babhru das