The so-called Sports (including soccer) are GAMBLING

December 21, 1999

At 05:49 PM 12/20/99 -0800, COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley -

USA) wrote:

>At 20:15 -0500 12/20/1999, COM: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA)

wrote:

>>"I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

>>adamant to defend a game like soccer [instead of] discussing the many other

>>ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in the

>>direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma."

>

>Oh now I get it: It's an *either - or* situation.

No, Mataji. I'm sorry, but once again you *don't* quite get it. "It's" not

an either-or situation. "It's" a humble opinion of *one* insignificant

so-called member of ISKCON--and nothing more.

>That means the *real* reason we have not yet established VAD in ISKCON is

>because everyone has been too preoccupied wiht playing soccer.

And what follows "That means" is your statement, not mine. Please consider

this one practical point explained by Srila Prabhupada: "Interpretation is

necessary when the meaning is not clear. Otherwise no interpretation required."

As far as I'm concerned, the meaning of my statement above is quite clear

and doesn't at all need to be interpreted.

>No wonder you're upset!

Thanks for another free cyber-telepsychoanalysis, Mataji, but may I suggest

that you first practice on shorter distances first--because so far it

appears that the Berkely-to-Alachua stretch jams your readings, thus

yielding highly inaccurate results.

December 21, 1999

> Please

> note the phrase "direct devotional service," *as opposed to* indirect or

> "maybe-it-is-maybe-it-isn't-who-knows?-but-if-it-feels-good-we-can-do-it-i

> n- the-name-of-some-varna" devotional service.

I can´t avoid to post this quote from a SP lecture I translated today. It´s

about "direct" and "indirect" DS.

Los Angeles, 29-11-1968, Bg.13-17:

Nandarani: When householder women raise their children in Krsna

consciousness, this seems to be an indirect service for Krsna. Should they

try to serve Him more directly by, you know, maybe cooking in the temple or

being, you know, something like this, more directly, or is raising children

and just having the household function, is that enough service? Is that

enough service?

Prabhupada: Yes, the thing is we should be Krsna conscious. Just like

electrification. Touching electricity by one wire, another joining another,

another wire, if the touch is there factual, then the electricity is

everywhere. Similarly if our Krsna consciousness is rightly connected, then

there is no question of direct or indirect. Because absolute world there is

no difference. As soon as it is touched with the direct connection... That

is called disciplic succession. Because the connection is coming down one

after another, so if we touch here, the spiritual master who is connected by

the same way, then the electric connection is there. There is no question of

direct or indirect. Evam parampara praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. Simply we

have to see whether the connection is disconnected. If the connection is

there, tight, then the electricity come without fail. So in our conditioned

stage there will be so many doubts, so many implication. But the same thing

as I gave you example, that don't be very much hasty to receive the result

immediately.

In the lecture, SP was speaking about happiness in DS. "If there is no

happiness", I paraphrase, "you are not practizing rightly". So if you don´t

find happiness in playing soccer, that means you are not rightly connected

with parampara.

Ys

Bhagavata-Purana Dasa.

December 21, 1999

>

> Fighting with guns instead of bows and arrows is still not the business of

> sudras, vaisyas, brahamanas. We're not talking about target practice,

> here--we're talking of battle, which of course may well also mean

> hand-to-hand combat, sword-fighting, etc., etc.

Say what? Point is, in battle, working as a unit teamstyle is a reality.

Squaring off one on one in structured competition has little relevance to real

combat. Tools to draw on, but only a small part of a big picture.

That's good, but there's still a big difference between transferrable skills

> and dirrect skills. Arjuna was so intent to practice military arts that he

> practiced at night. He didn't play soccer or football to "keep in shape" for

> battle.

Well, we can't hunt deer year round as he did. How can you be so sure he

didn't

play competitive sports? We know Krsna did, and they were contemporaries.

>

> You have the right to your perspective, of course, prabhu. But you know the

> saying, "If you want to learn to play soccer, play soccer." Not that we

> shoot pool (to developthe skill of propelling a ball into a designated

> space) so as to become better soccer players. Similarly, if we want to train

> ksatriyas, then we have to train ksatriyas--which means training them

> directly (why indirectly? Life is too short) in the martial arts.

Have you studied martial arts? Conditioning work is a fairly intregal part of

it.

I think you are getting a little out of your depth here. There is a lot of

cross

over between soccer and martial arts, practically none with pool.

>

> >A blessing to you.

>

> Was that a fully guaranteed, irrevocable blessing?

>

> --gkdas

A single issue, nontransferrable, guarantueed, irrevocable blessing.

December 21, 1999

>

> OK. But this is what I'm saying: Srila Prabhupada told us to establish

> vad, and he has given volumes and volumes of instructions toward that end.

> So what I said above is "I'm rather surprised that senior devotees are so

> adamant to defend a game like soccer [instead of] discussing the many

> other ways that our children could be practically and happily engaged in

> the direct devotional service of helping to establish varnasrama-dharma."

You seem to be stubborn in portraying these "senior devotees" as some

fools who are into soccer. So when a sadhu with Bhagavatam in hand

comes and tells them "My dear boys and girls, there is also a higher

goal in life to be achieved, why are you wasting your time in such

ashastric way?" then they get all upset and start defending -- soccer.

I mean, you are really self-deluding yourself here, sir.

You are speaking big words about establishing VAD, but here you

are, condemning any other activity than "direct devotional service".

What you are attempting is to capture an ocean with your tea-spoon.

In VAD you will have to leave the space even to meat-eaters,

what to speak of those who choose to stretch their muscles on

some other way than carrying the books on the street.

Indeed, it is amusing to see someone like you speaking about

establishing VAD in the world -- you can't get even over letting

fellow Hare Krsna devotees coming together and playing sometimes

some ball-sport without considering it a violation of God's

instructions and an unacceptable social activity.

See, you happened to get some info from Bhagavatam about the

purest form of devotional lifestyle and the you go "chasing" the

world with it. Some others stumble elsewhere across a pure model of

a woman in the ancient Vedic Times and then they make their life

mission to chase all the women with that "tea-spoon" of theirs.

And when they can't succeed in it (surprisingly, isn't it?, then

they react "Oh, see, foolish soccer-deffenders", or "poisonous

feminists".

> Please

> note the phrase "direct devotional service," *as opposed to* indirect or

> "maybe-it-is-maybe-it-isn't-who-knows?-but-if-it-feels-good-we-can-do-it-i

> n- the-name-of-some-varna" devotional service.

Just kick that damn ball without any fear of breaking God's

rules and regulations or falling from the platform of "direct

devotional service". Relax. Well, if you don't like soccer

then just don't bother about -- you can play a walleyball

instead.

- Mahanidhi das

December 21, 1999

At 01:57 AM 12/21/99 -0500, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan -

USA) wrote:

>[Text 2874010 from COM]

>>

>> Fighting with guns instead of bows and arrows is still not the business of

>> sudras, vaisyas, brahamanas. We're not talking about target practice,

>> here--we're talking of battle, which of course may well also mean

>> hand-to-hand combat, sword-fighting, etc., etc.

>

>Say what? Point is, in battle, working as a unit teamstyle is a reality.

>Squaring off one on one in structured competition has little relevance to real

>combat. Tools to draw on, but only a small part of a big picture.

Agreed, prabhu. My point was that in actual battle, the ability to squeeze a

trigger is quite an insufficient qualification.

>Well, we can't hunt deer year round as he did. How can you be so sure he

>didn't play competitive sports? We know Krsna did, and they were

>contemporaries.

Maybe the Sanskrit scholars can uncover some evidence.(?) When you say "We

know Krsna did," what exactly do you refer to, please?

>> You have the right to your perspective, of course, prabhu. But you know the

>> saying, "If you want to learn to play soccer, play soccer." Not that we

>> shoot pool (to developthe skill of propelling a ball into a designated

>> space) so as to become better soccer players. Similarly, if we want to train

>> ksatriyas, then we have to train ksatriyas--which means training them

>> directly (why indirectly? Life is too short) in the martial arts.

>

>Have you studied martial arts? Conditioning work is a fairly intregal part of

>it. I think you are getting a little out of your depth here. There is a lot of

>cross over between soccer and martial arts, practically none with pool.

That was an extreme example, perhaps. Whatever crossover may exist between

soccer and martial arts, how much comparison can we actually make between

even a rigorous sport and the reality of war or combat? My point is that

while we Kali-yuga sudras may feel heroic in this or that sport, the actual

ksatriya is trained, skilled, and toned for the harsh reality of battle. So,

in the mood of establishing vad, I was offering that we might do better to

try to apply Srila Prabhhupada's instructions to train kstatriyas--ksatriyas

trained to fight and kill.

>> >A blessing to you.

>>

>> Was that a fully guaranteed, irrevocable blessing?

>>

>> --gkdas

>

>A single issue, nontransferrable, guarantueed, irrevocable blessing.

Inded your causeless mercy and my causeless good fortune!

Thank you, prabhu.

Hare Krsna.

this most unfortunate, insignificant beggar and so-called servant of the

servants of ISKCON,

guru-krsna das ("janiya suniya visa khainu")

*dharmo raksati raksitah*

December 21, 1999

[snip]

>

> If *you're* amused, you should know how amused *I* am to hear most of your

> misinterpretations/extrapolations of my words. It's a real LOL for me!

[snip]

>

> More LOL!

Yes, we all can only try to keep LOLing ourselves, on the end. The

LOL-authorities say it's healthy because it produces a good chemicals

in the body. And if someone is not really up to real LOLing, the

recommendation is that one should try to squize some LOL out of the

belly anyway -- the body does not see the difference and accepts both

kind of LOLs without discrimination. Though some say such LOLing is

not bona fide because Prabhupada never instructed it to his disciples

nor it is in the direct line of pure LOL-yoga. However, all the

senior LOLies confirm that one should really be only careful to not

overLOL.

- Mahanidhi das, with the hope to receive the LOL-lata-bija from the

most serious LOLies of the LOLd.

December 21, 1999

- Mahanidhi das, with the hope to receive the LOL-lata-bija from the

most serious LOLies of the LOLd.

whät is LoL?

LOL

December 21, 1999

Stoka Krsna (Australia) you wrote:

>The very fact that this issue is being discussed in these terms indicates a

>cultish mentality. When are we going to see a mature attitude to mainstream

>social phenomena? When are devotees going to wake up and stop being

pedantic >and obsessive about trivia?

>Stoka Krsna (Australia)

Aw c'mon, prabhu--we're just sporting. Please be a good sport and let us

sport in this way. It's not forbidden, idle sport. It's *ideological* sport.

(Like playing soccer with the subtle body

December 22, 1999

>

> Agreed, prabhu. My point was that in actual battle, the ability to squeeze a

> trigger is quite an insufficient qualification.

>From that I can easily surmise taht you have never been in an actual battle.

From

the individual perspective, the ability to pull a trigger in battle has a

great

deal of significance.

>

> >Well, we can't hunt deer year round as he did. How can you be so sure he

> >didn't play competitive sports? We know Krsna did, and they were

> >contemporaries.

>

> Maybe the Sanskrit scholars can uncover some evidence.(?) When you say "We

> know Krsna did," what exactly do you refer to, please?

>

The boys played at catching ball with fruits such as bael and amalaka. They

played

blindman's buff, challenging and touching one another. Sometimes they imitated

the

forest deer and various kinds of birds. They joked with one another by

imitating

croaking frogs, and they enjoyed swinging underneath the trees. Sometimes they

would play like a king and his subjects amongst themselves. In this way,

Balarama

and Krsna, along with all Their friends, played all kinds of sports and enjoyed

the

soothing atmosphere of Vrndavana, full of rivers, lakes, rivulets, fine trees

and

excellent gardens filled with fruits and flowers.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => KB 18: Killing the Demon Pralambasura

> So,

> in the mood of establishing vad, I was offering that we might do better to

> try to apply Srila Prabhhupada's instructions to train kstatriyas--ksatriyas

> trained to fight and kill.

Again, what is your qualification ito have an opinion n the matter of what it

will

take to train ksatriyas? In fact, there is quite of lack of detail as to how

to

specifically do this. Part of training is learning how to operate in units

(teanwork), how to expend physical energy in a competitive environment for

extended periods of time, all of which are done in a soccer game. Your general

statement about training ksatriyas has nothing to do with the merits of a

specific

training technique.

December 22, 1999

>

> - Mahanidhi das, with the hope to receive the LOL-lata-bija from the

> most serious LOLies of the LOLd.

As stated in Srinivasa Acarya's song to the six Gosvamis,

gopi-bhava-rasamrtabdhi-lahari-kalLOLa-magnau muhuh: the love between the Lord

and His pure devotee is an ocean of spiritual bliss.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 11.6.18

Krsna's navel resembles a lotus, He is garlanded with lotuses, and His eyes are

also compared to the petals of a lotus (aLOLa-candraka-lasad-vanamalya-vamsi

[bs. 5.31]. So if we simply think of only this one verse, which describes

Krsna's body with reference to the lotus, we can meditate our whole life on how

beautiful Krsna is, how wise Krsna is, and how Krsna manifests His creation.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => TQK 5: The Vision of Lotuses

The spiritual master is always thinking of the pastimes of Krsna with His

consort -- Srimati Radharani -- and the gopis. Sometimes he is thinking about

Krsna's pastimes with the cowherd boys. This means that he is always thinking

of

Krsna engaged in some kind of pastime. Pratiksanasvadana-LOLupasya. Pratiksana

means he is thinking that way twenty-four hours a day.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => The Bona Fide Spiritual Master

December 22, 1999

"COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO)" wrote:

> [Text 2875563 from COM]

>

> - Mahanidhi das, with the hope to receive the LOL-lata-bija from the

> most serious LOLies of the LOLd.

>

> whät is LoL?

>

> LOL

Laugh Out Loud. An attempt to add body language to internet

communication. Stronger response then :-) merely smiling.

December 22, 1999

"COM: Prema Bhakti (dd) ACBSP (Lund - S)" wrote:

> [Text 2876469 from COM]

>

> >

> > whät is LoL?

>

> "Laughing Out Loudly"

>

> The next level is "LOH" -- "Laughing Out Hysterically".

> Before getting yourself to this level, you are advised to

> first check wether anybody else around you at least is

> also LOLing, or is it only you...

>

> - Mahanidhi das

ROFLOL

Rolling on floor, laughing out loud

December 22, 1999

On 22 Dec, 99, 08:39 -0500, Madhava Gosh Dasa wrote:

>> Agreed, prabhu. My point was that in actual battle, the ability to squeeze a

>> trigger is quite an insufficient qualification.

>From that I can easily surmise taht you have never been in an actual

battle. From >the individual perspective, the ability to pull a trigger in

battle has a great deal >of significance.

Not from the perspective that I was putting forth, which is this: Even a

child who may not even be strong enough to hold a rifle can nevertheless

squeeze the trigger. Now how significant is that in terms of the fighting

spirit and fitness required of a warrior?

>> Maybe the Sanskrit scholars can uncover some evidence.(?) When you say "We

>> know Krsna did," what exactly do you refer to, please?

>>

>The boys played at catching ball with fruits such as bael and amalaka. They

played >blindman's buff, challenging and touching one another. Sometimes

they imitated the >forest deer and various kinds of birds. They joked with

one another by imitating >croaking frogs, and they enjoyed swinging

underneath the trees. Sometimes they would >play like a king and his

subjects amongst themselves. In this way, Balarama and >Krsna, along with

all Their friends, played all kinds of sports and enjoyed the >soothing

atmosphere of Vrndavana, full of rivers, lakes, rivulets, fine trees and

>excellent gardens filled with fruits and flowers.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => KB 18: Killing the Demon Pralambasura

Oh, now I understand. The *above* was what you were referring to when you

said that Krsna also played "competitive sports" [below].

> >Well, we can't hunt deer year round as he did. How can you be so sure he

didn't

> >play competitive sports? We know Krsna did, and they were contemporaries.

> >

Somehow I don't quite see the connection between organized, competitive

sports and the childhood play of Krsna and the gopas. But, no matter--I have

unlimited more to learn about Krsna's wonderful creation.

>> So, in the mood of establishing vad, I was offering that we might do

better to

>> try to apply Srila Prabhhupada's instructions to train kstatriyas--ksatriyas

>> trained to fight and kill.

>Again, what is your qualification ito have an opinion n the matter of what

it will

>take to train ksatriyas? In fact, there is quite of lack of detail as to

how to

>specifically do this. Part of training is learning how to operate in units

>(teanwork), how to expend physical energy in a competitive environment for

extended >periods of time, all of which are done in a soccer game. Your

general statement >about training ksatriyas has nothing to do with the

merits of a specific

>training technique.

But my general statement included the necessary ingredient "fight and kill,"

which was a direct instruction by Srila Prabhhupada, was it not? And you

replied above: "Part of training..." And I grant that as true, but can we

say that our mighty-legged soccer players have been thoroughly trained and

certified to "fight and kill"? Or, is the standard military training in the

armed forces simply full-time practice of soccer skills/games? I mean, we

know that in the military they stage "war games." Why don't they just call

it "soccer games"?

December 22, 1999

>

> Not from the perspective that I was putting forth, which is this: Even a

> child who may not even be strong enough to hold a rifle can nevertheless

> squeeze the trigger. Now how significant is that in terms of the fighting

> spirit and fitness required of a warrior?

Have you ever been drafted into army? Or at least, have you ever

seen on TV what kind of fitness training and rigorous drill the

marines have to undergo? Police officers also. Yes, "squeezing

the trigger" is something what even a child or some invalid could

do but no sane officer would be happy to have these as his fighting

unit. I spent 1.5 years in army. Could tell you from the first hand

how totally useless you can be without good fighting spirit and

fitness, in spite of your "strength" to hold a rifle. A dead piece

of meat, not more than that.

- Mahanidhi das

December 23, 1999