non-initiates performing arcana

June 6, 2004

Dear Bhadra Govinda prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your letter.

> Ideally speaking the standard is - initiated have to perform arcana.

> However we have to choose the best among the available lot for any

> service. Like if no one is present Srila Prabhupada said it is ok for

> a woman during her monthly cycle perform arcana, but we must not stop

> seva.

>

> This is my understanding. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes this is correct, but she should be a brahmana. It is not acceptable for

non-brahmanas to do temple worship in ISKCON.

Your servant,

Nrsimha Kavaca dasa

Please visit our website: http://www.deityworship.com

June 7, 2004

> Yes this is correct, but she should be a brahmana. It is not acceptable

for

> non-brahmanas to do temple worship in ISKCON.

Yes prabhu. Agreed.

Ideally she / he should be brahmana. Ideally if a brahmana (he/she) is

available she should do arcana. I am not telling that we may condone this

requirement and allow sudras on to the altar when qualified brahmanas are

around. What I am saying is *If* brahmana is not available then some one

else may be allowed to perform the seva, but seva may not be stopped.

Ideally doctor must give medication, but in case of accident when no

qualified doctor is available then any one around may be allowed to give

some first aid / medication and not just wait for the doctor to come.

When Srila Prabhupada went to USA there were no brahmanas waiting for him

there, but ...........he chose the best among the available lot and trained

them up and allowed them to do the seva inspite of all short comings. There

is his famous prayer to the dieties in Australia that he prayed, he was

leaving Them in the hands of unqualified people but Krishna may guide them

through the heart.

If only we did not forget how we all started deity

worship...................

I had my Gaura Nitai deities at home when I did not have even my first

initiation. I was chanting 16 malas, 4 regulative principles, offering

bhoga, mangalarati etc,. and waiting for 1st initiation. Purascharya??.

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

June 7, 2004

Dear Bhadra Govinda dasa, PAMHO AGTSP

On Jun 7, 2004, at 4:12 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

>> Yes this is correct, but she should be a brahmana. It is not

>> acceptable for

>> non-brahmanas to do temple worship in ISKCON.

>

> Yes prabhu. Agreed.

>

> Ideally she / he should be brahmana. Ideally if a brahmana (he/she)

> is

> available she should do arcana. I am not telling that we may condone

> this

> requirement and allow sudras on to the altar when qualified brahmanas

> are

> around. What I am saying is *If* brahmana is not available then some

> one

> else may be allowed to perform the seva, but seva may not be stopped.

> Ideally doctor must give medication, but in case of accident when no

> qualified doctor is available then any one around may be allowed to

> give

> some first aid / medication and not just wait for the doctor to come.

There is a difference between giving CPR or basic first aid at an

accident and giving medication which has to be prescribed by a licensed

physician. Many times emergency operators tell people to do nothing

until the emergency medical technicians arrive. In other cases they

give instructions to people to give basic assistance. But if a

bystander were to try to actually administer complex medical procedures

without a license even at an accident he would be later liable to be

prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. As a fully trained medic

first aid instructor I am certainly aware of these facts at least

according to US Law. So I do not accept this analogy as being suitable.

You do not seem to be listening to what Nrsimha Kavacha Prabhu is

saying. To my knowledge there is NO ISKCON Temple (with or without

deities) run by completely uninitiated devotees. So if there is an

ISKCON Temple with deities there is certainly some initiated devotees.

Those devotees should, amongst themselves do the cooking and deity

worship. They should NOT delegate these duties to others who are not

initiated. And specifically those engaged in cooking and deity worship

should have 2nd initiation. Do you understand? There is probably NO

situation where an ISKCON Temple with deities is being completely run

by NON-initiated devotees. And if such a situation occurs then either

the GBC member for that area should send some 2nd initiate to take

charge and do the seva or He should arrange for whoever is doing it to

get initiated or He should move the deities to a place where they can

be properly looked after by 2nd initiated devotees.

> When Srila Prabhupada went to USA there were no brahmanas waiting for

> him

> there, but ...........he chose the best among the available lot and

> trained

> them up and allowed them to do the seva inspite of all short comings.

Your assertion that Srila Prabhupada Himself had non-brahmanas cooking

and doing deity worship is incorrect. It may have been the case in 1965

when NO ONE was initiated. But as soon as devotees began to be

initiated the standard was and always will be, as Srila Prabhupada

instituted and wanted, that ONLY 2nd initiates do the cooking and deity

worship.

> There

> is his famous prayer to the dieties in Australia that he prayed, he was

> leaving Them in the hands of unqualified people but Krishna may guide

> them

> through the heart.

Yes, Srila Prabhupada prayed to Radha Gopinatha in Sydney, Australia. I

know this as I was their Head Pujari for many years. But he initiated

many devotees to look after them at the time when he made that prayer.

He did not just make a prayer and let non initiates worship them. It is

not correct to come to that conclusion from this story. Please don't

try to quote stories like this when I know very well the full

circumstances involved. Srila Prabhupada considered the devotees to be

unqualified in Australia, true, but he still gave them a chance to

worship Radha Gopinatha by taking those devotees and giving them 2nd

initiation so that they could worship the deities. Similarly we are all

unqualified to worship the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna but by the grace of

our Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada we have been given the chance to

serve the Lord. Srila Prabhupada gave us that chance to serve the Lord

by giving us the sacred thread and gayatri mantras and also initiating

us into the chanting of the Hare Krsna Mahamantra, and he instructed us

to always keep the highest standard of deity worship and have ONLY 2nd

initiates cook and worship the deities. Please help to keep this

standard if you truly want to please Srila Prabhupada.

> If only we did not forget how we all started deity

> worship...................

>

> I had my Gaura Nitai deities at home when I did not have even my first

> initiation. I was chanting 16 malas, 4 regulative principles, offering

> bhoga, mangalarati etc,. and waiting for 1st initiation.

> Purascharya??.

That's very nice. But that is Home worship. We are talking about Temple

worship here. Even for Home worship it is best to be 2nd initiated for

performing. In India in Vaisnava households the children cannot even

enter the house kitchen until they are initiated. Although the Holy

Name does not require formal initiation and is all that we need to

worship the Lord in this age of Kali. Still all the previous Acharyas

including Srila Prabhupada have encouraged us to take initiation as a

prerequisite to the performance of devotional service. Once the bhakti

lata bija or seed of devotion is planted in the heart of the disciple

at the time of initiation by the Guru then the activities of hearing,

chanting, worshiping, etc will begin to water and fertilize that seed.

Until then any service that we do is simply ploughing the field waiting

for the seed to be planted. No doubt there is eternal benefit from

performing these activities even before initiation. However the correct

method is to first take 2nd initiation and then learn the system of

deity worship under the guidance of the Spiritual Master and other

advanced Vaisnavas.

ys

Gaura Keshava dasa

PS I noticed that your email address is raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg.

Please do not make the mistake of thinking that there are no rules and

regulations in raganuga bhakti or that this stage can be artificially

attained by those who disregard the process of vaidhi bhakti and/or

pancaratric diksha.

June 8, 2004

Dear Prabhu,

Namo Namah!! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!!!

All I said is "we have to choose the best among the available lot". This is

true in any situation. It does not matter whether it is in temple or home

or in road accident. I read your lengthy mail, and it seems you are in

complete agreement on this point. Only thing is I am saying "son-in-law"

and you are saying "daughter's husband"

Srila Prabhupada neither wanted us to become sahajiyas with out following

any rules and regulations nor he wanted us to become *caste* brahmanas.

Niyamagraha!!

In ISKCON 99% are home dieties. I just wanted to make sure these 99%

population are not neglected when we are discussing. By the way Srila

Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple.

There are some households where I personally placed pictures of Radha

Krishna / Gaura Nitai and taught them basic arati, bhoga offering and later

they have taken first initiation.

samo damas tapah saucam

ksantir arjavam eva ca

jnanam vijnanam astikyam

brahma karma svabavajam.

And please do not make the mistake that a person having e-mail address

*raganuga* is claiming himself to be ranganuga, just as mistaking a person

named Krishna is claiming himself to be lord Krishna. Thanks for asking

and I am happy to clarify.

Hare Krishna,

Your most humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

-

"Gregory Jay" <gregjay (AT) softhome (DOT) net>

"Bhadra Govinda Dasa" <raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg>

Cc: "Nrsimha Kavaca (das) IDS" <Nrsimha.Kavaca.IDS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Tattvavit

(das) ACBSP (BBT)" <Tattvavit.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum)" <India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Tuesday, June 08, 2004 6:19 AM

Re: non-initiates performing arcana

> Dear Bhadra Govinda dasa, PAMHO AGTSP

>

> On Jun 7, 2004, at 4:12 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

>

> >> Yes this is correct, but she should be a brahmana. It is not

> >> acceptable for

> >> non-brahmanas to do temple worship in ISKCON.

> >

> > Yes prabhu. Agreed.

> >

> > Ideally she / he should be brahmana. Ideally if a brahmana (he/she)

> > is

> > available she should do arcana. I am not telling that we may condone

> > this

> > requirement and allow sudras on to the altar when qualified brahmanas

> > are

> > around. What I am saying is *If* brahmana is not available then some

> > one

> > else may be allowed to perform the seva, but seva may not be stopped.

> > Ideally doctor must give medication, but in case of accident when no

> > qualified doctor is available then any one around may be allowed to

> > give

> > some first aid / medication and not just wait for the doctor to come.

>

> There is a difference between giving CPR or basic first aid at an

> accident and giving medication which has to be prescribed by a licensed

> physician. Many times emergency operators tell people to do nothing

> until the emergency medical technicians arrive. In other cases they

> give instructions to people to give basic assistance. But if a

> bystander were to try to actually administer complex medical procedures

> without a license even at an accident he would be later liable to be

> prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. As a fully trained medic

> first aid instructor I am certainly aware of these facts at least

> according to US Law. So I do not accept this analogy as being suitable.

>

> You do not seem to be listening to what Nrsimha Kavacha Prabhu is

> saying. To my knowledge there is NO ISKCON Temple (with or without

> deities) run by completely uninitiated devotees. So if there is an

> ISKCON Temple with deities there is certainly some initiated devotees.

> Those devotees should, amongst themselves do the cooking and deity

> worship. They should NOT delegate these duties to others who are not

> initiated. And specifically those engaged in cooking and deity worship

> should have 2nd initiation. Do you understand? There is probably NO

> situation where an ISKCON Temple with deities is being completely run

> by NON-initiated devotees. And if such a situation occurs then either

> the GBC member for that area should send some 2nd initiate to take

> charge and do the seva or He should arrange for whoever is doing it to

> get initiated or He should move the deities to a place where they can

> be properly looked after by 2nd initiated devotees.

>

> > When Srila Prabhupada went to USA there were no brahmanas waiting for

> > him

> > there, but ...........he chose the best among the available lot and

> > trained

> > them up and allowed them to do the seva inspite of all short comings.

>

> Your assertion that Srila Prabhupada Himself had non-brahmanas cooking

> and doing deity worship is incorrect. It may have been the case in 1965

> when NO ONE was initiated. But as soon as devotees began to be

> initiated the standard was and always will be, as Srila Prabhupada

> instituted and wanted, that ONLY 2nd initiates do the cooking and deity

> worship.

>

> > There

> > is his famous prayer to the dieties in Australia that he prayed, he was

> > leaving Them in the hands of unqualified people but Krishna may guide

> > them

> > through the heart.

>

> Yes, Srila Prabhupada prayed to Radha Gopinatha in Sydney, Australia. I

> know this as I was their Head Pujari for many years. But he initiated

> many devotees to look after them at the time when he made that prayer.

> He did not just make a prayer and let non initiates worship them. It is

> not correct to come to that conclusion from this story. Please don't

> try to quote stories like this when I know very well the full

> circumstances involved. Srila Prabhupada considered the devotees to be

> unqualified in Australia, true, but he still gave them a chance to

> worship Radha Gopinatha by taking those devotees and giving them 2nd

> initiation so that they could worship the deities. Similarly we are all

> unqualified to worship the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna but by the grace of

> our Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada we have been given the chance to

> serve the Lord. Srila Prabhupada gave us that chance to serve the Lord

> by giving us the sacred thread and gayatri mantras and also initiating

> us into the chanting of the Hare Krsna Mahamantra, and he instructed us

> to always keep the highest standard of deity worship and have ONLY 2nd

> initiates cook and worship the deities. Please help to keep this

> standard if you truly want to please Srila Prabhupada.

>

> > If only we did not forget how we all started deity

> > worship...................

> >

> > I had my Gaura Nitai deities at home when I did not have even my first

> > initiation. I was chanting 16 malas, 4 regulative principles, offering

> > bhoga, mangalarati etc,. and waiting for 1st initiation.

> > Purascharya??.

>

> That's very nice. But that is Home worship. We are talking about Temple

> worship here. Even for Home worship it is best to be 2nd initiated for

> performing. In India in Vaisnava households the children cannot even

> enter the house kitchen until they are initiated. Although the Holy

> Name does not require formal initiation and is all that we need to

> worship the Lord in this age of Kali. Still all the previous Acharyas

> including Srila Prabhupada have encouraged us to take initiation as a

> prerequisite to the performance of devotional service. Once the bhakti

> lata bija or seed of devotion is planted in the heart of the disciple

> at the time of initiation by the Guru then the activities of hearing,

> chanting, worshiping, etc will begin to water and fertilize that seed.

> Until then any service that we do is simply ploughing the field waiting

> for the seed to be planted. No doubt there is eternal benefit from

> performing these activities even before initiation. However the correct

> method is to first take 2nd initiation and then learn the system of

> deity worship under the guidance of the Spiritual Master and other

> advanced Vaisnavas.

>

> ys

>

> Gaura Keshava dasa

>

> PS I noticed that your email address is raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg.

> Please do not make the mistake of thinking that there are no rules and

> regulations in raganuga bhakti or that this stage can be artificially

> attained by those who disregard the process of vaidhi bhakti and/or

> pancaratric diksha.

>

June 10, 2004

Dear Bhadra Govindaji, PAMHO AGTSP

On Jun 8, 2004, at 6:48 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

> All I said is "we have to choose the best among the available lot".

> This is

> true in any situation. It does not matter whether it is in temple or

> home

> or in road accident.

Actually it does matter. Nrsimha Kavaca mentioned to you Srila

Prabhupada's standard for ISKCON Temple worship. I have told you that

there are NO ISKCON Temples without initiated devotees. Therefore you

have to accept Srila Prabhupada's standard that only 2nd initiates cook

and do arcana in ISKCON Temples.

As far as Home worship is concerned in India the system is the same. In

the homes of ISKCON members or friends there may be some differences,

as Srila Prabhupada was not specific on this point of home worship to

my knowledge. However that does not change the fact that any Vaisnava

in India will tell you that one needs to be properly initiated to

perform Vaisnava Pancaratric worship either in the home or temple.

> I read your lengthy mail, and it seems you are in

> complete agreement on this point. Only thing is I am saying

> "son-in-law"

> and you are saying "daughter's husband"

You may be reading my email but you are not understanding my point if

you still keep insisting that non-initiates can do puja in ISKCON

Temples. Why? There is no need for this to go on. It is quite simple

for one to get initiated. 4 regs, 16 rounds etc. In a short time one

may be initiated. Then why is it necessary for one to do puja who is

not initiated. Let those persons chant Hare Krsna and then when they

become properly qualified and accepted by a Spiritual Master and

initiated they can begin their arcana training. This is the way in

which Srila Prabhupada and all the previous Acharyas have shown us how

to act. Mahajano yena gatah sah pantah. And it is also confirmed by

sastra. The system of Pancaratric worship is laid out clearly in the

sastras and amongst the initial requirements is Pancaratric diksha.

Sruti smrit puranadi pancaratra vidim vina. So called devotional

service that disregards the injunctions of the sruti smrti purana and

pancaratra literatures is simply a disturbance in society.

> Srila Prabhupada neither wanted us to become sahajiyas with out

> following

> any rules and regulations nor he wanted us to become *caste*

> brahmanas.

> Niyamagraha!!

Again you are trying to wrap yourself in the flag. When people say

things like this they think that they can substantiate their point by

saying that Srila Prabhupada did not want us to follow his instructions

strictly. This is not a fact. You tried to give that example of the

accident. I have shown you how that is not applicable. Then you tried

to show the example of Srila Prabhupada praying to Radha Gopinatha.

However since I was their pujari I know very well that Srila Prabhupada

did not leave them to be worshipped by non-initiated devotees. NO, on

the contrary He initiated many devotees and engaged those 2nd initiated

devotees only in their worship. Therefore you have not given any

instance where there was an ISKCON Temple in which Srila Prabhupada

allowed non-initiates to cook or do deity worship. If you cannot give

such an example please desist in misleading others on this point.

> In ISKCON 99% are home dieties. I just wanted to make sure these 99%

> population are not neglected when we are discussing. By the way Srila

> Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple.

Home deities are NOT ISKCON deities. Their care and worship are taken

care of by the individual householders. It is not the responsibility of

the GBC or other authorities in ISKCON to see that the home worship of

individual's deities goes on. However it is certainly the

responsibility of the ISKCON authorities to see that the worship in the

ISKCON Temples goes on.

As far as saying that "every home should be a temple" please do not

confuse these two concepts. Of course Srila Prabhupada allowed

householders to have their separate homes but he encouraged people to

worship the Lord first of all in the Temples and then secondly also in

their own homes. But he made a distinction between the two which you

seem to be trying to blurr here. There is indeed a great difference

between ISKCON Temples and Householder's Homes. Therefore it is NOT

correct to say that Srila Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple,

in the sense of an official ISKCON Temple. If this were the case then

all householders would need to sign over the deed to their homes to

several ISKCON trustees before having deities there. It is a

requirement of Srila Prabhupada's that all ISKCON Temples with deities

not be mortgaged and that the land should be held in trust by several

ISKCON Trustees. Please read His Divine Grace's Last Will and Testament

if you do not agree. Therefore once again I ask you not to confuse

issues by writing things that cannot be substantiated, are not clearly

stated, and are not the actual standard instituted by Srila Prabhupada.

If there is an ISKCON Temple where there are deities and that Temple is

completely run by 2nd initiated female devotees and there are NO 2nd

initiated male devotees (To my knowledge there are no such ISKCON

Temples). And further if all those 2nd initiated women find themselves

contaminated by their monthly periods at the same time. Then I can see

the point of allowing them to continue and do the puja so that it may

not be stopped.

I would like you to also please quote this quote from Srila Prabhupada

completely. You seem not to have included the last part of the quote.

That is after saying this, Srila Prabhupada said "But it is better not

to do." This means that although he made such a statement he wanted us

to avoid circumstances where that needed to be applied. I have shown

how it is extremely unlikely such a circumstance would arise. It is up

to the true follower of Srila Prabhupada to try to avoid such a

situation, not to make excuses why His Divine Grace's actual standard

cannot be followed.

> There are some households where I personally placed pictures of Radha

> Krishna / Gaura Nitai and taught them basic arati, bhoga offering and

> later

> they have taken first initiation.

That's nice. As I said above Srila Prabhupada was not very specific

about the standards for home worship. And Srila Jayapataka Maharaja has

certainly been successful with this type of preaching to congregational

householders whether they be initiated or not. But the fact of the

matter is that Pancaratric worship whether in the home or in the temple

ACTUALLY requires Pancaratric diksha so you should not confuse this

system of congregational preaching with Srila Prabhupada's instructions

for ISKCON Temple worship. What you have described was not a system

instituted by Srila Prabhupada.

> samo damas tapah saucam

> ksantir arjavam eva ca

> jnanam vijnanam astikyam

> brahma karma svabavajam.

Sorry I don't understand why you are quoting this sloka. This sloka

describes the qualities of a brahmana. However the real point of this

whole discussion is NOT brahmanas. Actually when we speak of "brahmanas

in ISKCON" we actually mean those with Pancaratric diksha. They are

more than brahmanas, they are Vaisnavas. So it is not a caste issue. We

don't have restrictions like that. However we do have the restriction

that one must have Pancaratic diskha (2nd initiation) in order to cook

or do deity worship in ISKCON Temples.

> And please do not make the mistake that a person having e-mail address

> *raganuga* is claiming himself to be ranganuga, just as mistaking a

> person

> named Krishna is claiming himself to be lord Krishna. Thanks for

> asking

> and I am happy to clarify.

I would certainly be happy to know the reason you use "raganuga" as an

email address. Even though it does not necessarily mean anything, it

seems strange to use this word in this way if absolutely nothing is

meant by it. It may also mislead others. Just as one may use the email

address "puredevotee (AT) hotmail (DOT) com" yet why would one do so? The usual

system of email identification is that the first part before the @ "at"

sign indicates the person or topic. Don't you agree?

ys

Gaura Keshava dasa

June 13, 2004

Still I cannot understand why you are putting so many words in my mouth.

You are saying things which I never said.

Hare Krishna,

YHS

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

-

"Gregory Jay" <gregjay (AT) softhome (DOT) net>

"Bhadra Govinda Dasa" <raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg>

Cc: "Nrsimha Kavaca (das) IDS" <Nrsimha.Kavaca.IDS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Tattvavit

(das) ACBSP (BBT)" <Tattvavit.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum)" <India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Thursday, June 10, 2004 12:37 PM

Re: non-initiates performing arcana

> Dear Bhadra Govindaji, PAMHO AGTSP

>

> On Jun 8, 2004, at 6:48 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

>

> > All I said is "we have to choose the best among the available lot".

> > This is

> > true in any situation. It does not matter whether it is in temple or

> > home

> > or in road accident.

>

> Actually it does matter. Nrsimha Kavaca mentioned to you Srila

> Prabhupada's standard for ISKCON Temple worship. I have told you that

> there are NO ISKCON Temples without initiated devotees. Therefore you

> have to accept Srila Prabhupada's standard that only 2nd initiates cook

> and do arcana in ISKCON Temples.

>

> As far as Home worship is concerned in India the system is the same. In

> the homes of ISKCON members or friends there may be some differences,

> as Srila Prabhupada was not specific on this point of home worship to

> my knowledge. However that does not change the fact that any Vaisnava

> in India will tell you that one needs to be properly initiated to

> perform Vaisnava Pancaratric worship either in the home or temple.

>

> > I read your lengthy mail, and it seems you are in

> > complete agreement on this point. Only thing is I am saying

> > "son-in-law"

> > and you are saying "daughter's husband"

>

> You may be reading my email but you are not understanding my point if

> you still keep insisting that non-initiates can do puja in ISKCON

> Temples. Why? There is no need for this to go on. It is quite simple

> for one to get initiated. 4 regs, 16 rounds etc. In a short time one

> may be initiated. Then why is it necessary for one to do puja who is

> not initiated. Let those persons chant Hare Krsna and then when they

> become properly qualified and accepted by a Spiritual Master and

> initiated they can begin their arcana training. This is the way in

> which Srila Prabhupada and all the previous Acharyas have shown us how

> to act. Mahajano yena gatah sah pantah. And it is also confirmed by

> sastra. The system of Pancaratric worship is laid out clearly in the

> sastras and amongst the initial requirements is Pancaratric diksha.

> Sruti smrit puranadi pancaratra vidim vina. So called devotional

> service that disregards the injunctions of the sruti smrti purana and

> pancaratra literatures is simply a disturbance in society.

>

> > Srila Prabhupada neither wanted us to become sahajiyas with out

> > following

> > any rules and regulations nor he wanted us to become *caste*

> > brahmanas.

> > Niyamagraha!!

>

> Again you are trying to wrap yourself in the flag. When people say

> things like this they think that they can substantiate their point by

> saying that Srila Prabhupada did not want us to follow his instructions

> strictly. This is not a fact. You tried to give that example of the

> accident. I have shown you how that is not applicable. Then you tried

> to show the example of Srila Prabhupada praying to Radha Gopinatha.

> However since I was their pujari I know very well that Srila Prabhupada

> did not leave them to be worshipped by non-initiated devotees. NO, on

> the contrary He initiated many devotees and engaged those 2nd initiated

> devotees only in their worship. Therefore you have not given any

> instance where there was an ISKCON Temple in which Srila Prabhupada

> allowed non-initiates to cook or do deity worship. If you cannot give

> such an example please desist in misleading others on this point.

>

> > In ISKCON 99% are home dieties. I just wanted to make sure these 99%

> > population are not neglected when we are discussing. By the way Srila

> > Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple.

>

> Home deities are NOT ISKCON deities. Their care and worship are taken

> care of by the individual householders. It is not the responsibility of

> the GBC or other authorities in ISKCON to see that the home worship of

> individual's deities goes on. However it is certainly the

> responsibility of the ISKCON authorities to see that the worship in the

> ISKCON Temples goes on.

>

> As far as saying that "every home should be a temple" please do not

> confuse these two concepts. Of course Srila Prabhupada allowed

> householders to have their separate homes but he encouraged people to

> worship the Lord first of all in the Temples and then secondly also in

> their own homes. But he made a distinction between the two which you

> seem to be trying to blurr here. There is indeed a great difference

> between ISKCON Temples and Householder's Homes. Therefore it is NOT

> correct to say that Srila Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple,

> in the sense of an official ISKCON Temple. If this were the case then

> all householders would need to sign over the deed to their homes to

> several ISKCON trustees before having deities there. It is a

> requirement of Srila Prabhupada's that all ISKCON Temples with deities

> not be mortgaged and that the land should be held in trust by several

> ISKCON Trustees. Please read His Divine Grace's Last Will and Testament

> if you do not agree. Therefore once again I ask you not to confuse

> issues by writing things that cannot be substantiated, are not clearly

> stated, and are not the actual standard instituted by Srila Prabhupada.

>

> If there is an ISKCON Temple where there are deities and that Temple is

> completely run by 2nd initiated female devotees and there are NO 2nd

> initiated male devotees (To my knowledge there are no such ISKCON

> Temples). And further if all those 2nd initiated women find themselves

> contaminated by their monthly periods at the same time. Then I can see

> the point of allowing them to continue and do the puja so that it may

> not be stopped.

>

> I would like you to also please quote this quote from Srila Prabhupada

> completely. You seem not to have included the last part of the quote.

> That is after saying this, Srila Prabhupada said "But it is better not

> to do." This means that although he made such a statement he wanted us

> to avoid circumstances where that needed to be applied. I have shown

> how it is extremely unlikely such a circumstance would arise. It is up

> to the true follower of Srila Prabhupada to try to avoid such a

> situation, not to make excuses why His Divine Grace's actual standard

> cannot be followed.

>

> > There are some households where I personally placed pictures of Radha

> > Krishna / Gaura Nitai and taught them basic arati, bhoga offering and

> > later

> > they have taken first initiation.

>

> That's nice. As I said above Srila Prabhupada was not very specific

> about the standards for home worship. And Srila Jayapataka Maharaja has

> certainly been successful with this type of preaching to congregational

> householders whether they be initiated or not. But the fact of the

> matter is that Pancaratric worship whether in the home or in the temple

> ACTUALLY requires Pancaratric diksha so you should not confuse this

> system of congregational preaching with Srila Prabhupada's instructions

> for ISKCON Temple worship. What you have described was not a system

> instituted by Srila Prabhupada.

>

> > samo damas tapah saucam

> > ksantir arjavam eva ca

> > jnanam vijnanam astikyam

> > brahma karma svabavajam.

>

> Sorry I don't understand why you are quoting this sloka. This sloka

> describes the qualities of a brahmana. However the real point of this

> whole discussion is NOT brahmanas. Actually when we speak of "brahmanas

> in ISKCON" we actually mean those with Pancaratric diksha. They are

> more than brahmanas, they are Vaisnavas. So it is not a caste issue. We

> don't have restrictions like that. However we do have the restriction

> that one must have Pancaratic diskha (2nd initiation) in order to cook

> or do deity worship in ISKCON Temples.

>

> > And please do not make the mistake that a person having e-mail address

> > *raganuga* is claiming himself to be ranganuga, just as mistaking a

> > person

> > named Krishna is claiming himself to be lord Krishna. Thanks for

> > asking

> > and I am happy to clarify.

>

> I would certainly be happy to know the reason you use "raganuga" as an

> email address. Even though it does not necessarily mean anything, it

> seems strange to use this word in this way if absolutely nothing is

> meant by it. It may also mislead others. Just as one may use the email

> address "puredevotee (AT) hotmail (DOT) com" yet why would one do so? The usual

> system of email identification is that the first part before the @ "at"

> sign indicates the person or topic. Don't you agree?

>

> ys

>

> Gaura Keshava dasa

>

June 15, 2004

Dear Bhadra Govinda prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your letter.

> Ideally she / he should be brahmana. Ideally if a brahmana (he/she) is

> available she should do arcana. I am not telling that we may condone this

> requirement and allow sudras on to the altar when qualified brahmanas are

> around. What I am saying is *If* brahmana is not available then some one

> else may be allowed to perform the seva, but seva may not be stopped.

I would like to stress here that this understanding is not correct. Ideally

is not an option. The sevait for the deity in an ISKCON temple must be a

brahmana, no matter which deities are being worshiped. Srila Prabhupada was

adamant on this point. It is with such rationale that standards slip in

ISKCON.

As far as home worship is concerned please read the following quote from

Srila Prabhupada.

It is not necessary to be a Brahmin to have home altar,

Letter to: Mangalamaya, Madhupuri — Calcutta 20 February, 1972

> All I said is "we have to choose the best among the available lot". This

> is true in any situation.

I cannot agree with this. It is not your right to choose in this situation.

The process of worship has been given by Krsna Himself. dharman to saksat

bhagavat pranitam. Deity worship is a process of religion and only bhagavan

can give religion. It is not up to us to change it at our whim.

> Srila Prabhupada neither wanted us to become sahajiyas with out following

> any rules and regulations nor he wanted us to become *caste* brahmanas.

> Niyamagraha!!

He wanted us to worship the deity according to rules and regulations of

deity worship, otherwise it would become idolatry. One of the first rules of

temple worship is that it is done by brahmanas. If we do not follow this

then we have certainly slipped into niyamagraha, rejecting the rules and

regulations of the scriptures (deity worship) and working independently or

whimsically.

> In ISKCON 99% are home dieties. I just wanted to make sure these 99%

> population are not neglected when we are discussing. By the way Srila

> Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple.

This may be. Home worship is a completely different proposition from temple

worship. If the assertion you are making is in relation to home worship then

I agree, however it is not correct for the deity in the temple to be

worshiped by non-brahmanas.

I hope this is clear to you prabhu.

Your servant,

Nrsimha Kavaca dasa

Please visit our website: http://www.deityworship.com

June 19, 2004

Dear Narasimha Kavaca Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP.

I completely agree to what ever you have said now and earlier also. Same

with Gaura Kesava Prabhu. I said so even in my earlier mail. I am aware of

all those rules and quotes you are giving here.

To get across my point let me ask you a question.

In an ISKCON temple (not the home deities) where deities are installed, say

the brahmanas who regularly perform worship are not available for what ever

reasons (may be they suddenly lost faith, fell down and left the movement,

Krishna forbid). Who ever left behind is say only first initiation

devotees or some 16 rounders with out even first initiation. Until you send

another brahmana there, or until we get the existing devoteees their second

initiation, say it may take a week's time. At that time *in the interim

period* for that week, do we allow the first initiated devotees or 16

rounders, to perform the seva (if they are willing to) or do we shut down

the altar until some qualified brahmanas come there?

Do we not "choose the best among the available lot" in a particular

situation, with out stopping seva?

This is true even when there are many qualified brahmanas for the service.

For eg in the recent Sri Panca Tattva deity installation, at Mayapur out of

hundreds of brahmanas who attended the ceremony, only a handful, that is the

"best among the available lot" were allowed for the service. And it has to

be like that. I was there also with my 10 cent thread. I would not dare

claim my entry on to the altar, when all the more qualified brahmanas are

around. However if in some situation when more qualified brahmanas are not

there, I definitely do offer my seva, even though I think I am not

qualified. Recently I did 2 samskaras for devotee children (namakarana,

anna prasanna) when the likes of Gaura Kesava and Narasimha Kavaca Prabhus

are not nearby. If more qualified brahmanas were there I woulld not do the

samskaras, as I think I am not fit to do all these samskaras. I would ask

the parents to look for more qualified brahmanas. However the devotees

said, they wanted only ISKCON priest do it for them so I did perform the

samskaras.

Hope by the mercy of Vaisnavas, one day I too can become qualified for any

kind of seva for the devotees and the Supreme Lord.

Hope this keeps you in the best of health and Krishna Consciousness,

Hare Krishna,

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

-

"Nrsimha Kavaca (das) IDS" <Nrsimha.Kavaca.IDS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

"Bhadra Govinda Dasa" <raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg>; "Gregory Jay"

Cc: "Tattvavit (das) ACBSP (BBT)" <Tattvavit.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "India

(Continental Committee) Open (Forum)" <India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Tuesday, June 15, 2004 2:06 PM

Re: non-initiates performing arcana

> Dear Bhadra Govinda prabhu,

>

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> Thank you for your letter.

>

> > Ideally she / he should be brahmana. Ideally if a brahmana (he/she) is

> > available she should do arcana. I am not telling that we may condone

this

> > requirement and allow sudras on to the altar when qualified brahmanas

are

> > around. What I am saying is *If* brahmana is not available then some

one

> > else may be allowed to perform the seva, but seva may not be stopped.

>

> I would like to stress here that this understanding is not correct.

Ideally

> is not an option. The sevait for the deity in an ISKCON temple must be a

> brahmana, no matter which deities are being worshiped. Srila Prabhupada

was

> adamant on this point. It is with such rationale that standards slip in

> ISKCON.

>

> As far as home worship is concerned please read the following quote from

> Srila Prabhupada.

>

> It is not necessary to be a Brahmin to have home altar,

>

> Letter to: Mangalamaya, Madhupuri - Calcutta 20 February, 1972

>

> > All I said is "we have to choose the best among the available lot".

This

> > is true in any situation.

>

> I cannot agree with this. It is not your right to choose in this

situation.

> The process of worship has been given by Krsna Himself. dharman to saksat

> bhagavat pranitam. Deity worship is a process of religion and only

bhagavan

> can give religion. It is not up to us to change it at our whim.

>

> > Srila Prabhupada neither wanted us to become sahajiyas with out

following

> > any rules and regulations nor he wanted us to become *caste* brahmanas.

> > Niyamagraha!!

>

> He wanted us to worship the deity according to rules and regulations of

> deity worship, otherwise it would become idolatry. One of the first rules

of

> temple worship is that it is done by brahmanas. If we do not follow this

> then we have certainly slipped into niyamagraha, rejecting the rules and

> regulations of the scriptures (deity worship) and working independently or

> whimsically.

>

> > In ISKCON 99% are home dieties. I just wanted to make sure these 99%

> > population are not neglected when we are discussing. By the way Srila

> > Prabhupada wanted every home to be a temple.

>

> This may be. Home worship is a completely different proposition from

temple

> worship. If the assertion you are making is in relation to home worship

then

> I agree, however it is not correct for the deity in the temple to be

> worshiped by non-brahmanas.

>

> I hope this is clear to you prabhu.

>

> Your servant,

> Nrsimha Kavaca dasa

>

> Please visit our website: http://www.deityworship.com

June 22, 2004

To Whom it may concern especially, Bhadra Govinda das aka

raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg,

PAMHO AGTSP

Before I respond again to these ideas, I would like to make plain my

opinion with regards to statements in the sastra about these sort of

things. Many times it is mentioned in the sastra that it is an offense

to do a certain thing, and some sort of punishment is given. One should

note that the punishment is always temporary. Vaisnavas (except perhaps

Madhvas) do not believe in eternal punishment. Then again many times it

is mentioned that one derives spiritual benefit from performing certain

acts, (even though one may not be qualified to do them?). Please note

that spiritual benefits are eternal. Therefore under certain

circumstances one could say that since the benefits are eternal and the

punishment is temporary that one would be justified in performing the

act even though one is not fit sastrically to do so. However this is

not usually the system. A good example of this is touching the deity or

salagrama. According to the sastra non-Vaisnavas are forbidden to touch

the deity or salagama. The punishment given in Hari Bhakti Vilasa is

going to hell as long as the sun and moon shine (temporary but a long

time). However Hari Bhakti Vilasa also mentions the eternal benefits

for those who do touch the deity or salagrama. The question is should

non-Vaisnavas do this? Since it is not recommended by the sastra the

answer is NO. If a situation occurs where this happens then the persons

who authorize, encourage, or actually participate in this offense are

all responsible. Only the actual person who touches the deity or

salagrama will derive the benefit as well as the punishment. Those in

positions of authority who encourage anti-sastric behavior will have to

share in the punishment. Guru na sah syat, etc.

On Jun 19, 2004, at 6:09 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa aka

raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg wrote:

> In an ISKCON temple (not the home deities) where deities are

> installed, say

> the brahmanas who regularly perform worship are not available for what

> ever

> reasons (may be they suddenly lost faith, fell down and left the

> movement,

> Krishna forbid). Who ever left behind is say only first initiation

> devotees or some 16 rounders with out even first initiation. Until

> you send

> another brahmana there, or until we get the existing devoteees their

> second

> initiation, say it may take a week's time. At that time *in the

> interim

> period* for that week, do we allow the first initiated devotees or 16

> rounders, to perform the seva (if they are willing to) or do we shut

> down

> the altar until some qualified brahmanas come there?

>

> Do we not "choose the best among the available lot" in a particular

> situation, with out stopping seva?

To your knowledge has such a situation ever occurred? You keep writing

as though this is a real situation. Probably this will never occur.

Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Bhagavatam that there should be at

least 3 or 4 brahmanas when deities (I believe he mentions Radha Krsna)

are installed. So I cannot think of when there was a situation where 3

or 4 pujaris (who were the ONLY brahmanas in the temple) left exactly

at the same time. One should admit that this would be an exceptionally

strange circumstance. The only situation I can think of like this is

when an ISKCON guru bloops and his disciples all go with him.

Particularly I was thinking of 1982 when Jayatirtha left. Even in that

circumstance, there were still Prabhupada disciples around. Recently

when Harikesha left from Europe there may have been some situation

"like" this. But even then there are certainly some qualified persons

available for doing the puja. Whether they refuse to do it or not is

another question.

> This is true even when there are many qualified brahmanas for the

> service.

> For eg in the recent Sri Panca Tattva deity installation, at Mayapur

> out of

> hundreds of brahmanas who attended the ceremony, only a handful, that

> is the

> "best among the available lot" were allowed for the service.

Sorry I don't understand this point. This is a negative proof. It does

not prove anything about the previous statement.

> And it has to

> be like that. I was there also with my 10 cent thread. I would not

> dare

> claim my entry on to the altar, when all the more qualified brahmanas

> are

> around. However if in some situation when more qualified brahmanas

> are not

> there, I definitely do offer my seva, even though I think I am not

> qualified.

Certainly in complex rituals like installation one may not be trained

as others have been. That however does not disqualify one from helping

in some way. Not everyone involved in an installation ceremony will

need to perform complex rituals. Sometimes it is enough to help by

ringing a bell or waving a camara or reading from sastra. But still the

basic qualification for all those services in the temple is 2nd

initiation.

The problem is that we do many different types of puja as you say. And

we see the qualifications for them as being different. However the

sastra does not support this.

Technically one must be a Vaisnava to perform Vaisnava worship. One is

not technically a Vaisnava unless and until one has taken diksha

(Vaisnava Pancaratric diksha). Vaisnava worship is performed with

Pancaratric mantras. One who does not have those mantras will naturally

not be able to perform such worship. One gets those mantras (and

thereby the ability to use them in worship) at the time of Vaisnava

Pancaratric diksha. Actually the giving and receiving of those mantras

IS the essence of Vaisnava Pancaratric diksha. Sampradaya vihinam ye

mantras te nisphlala matah. The chanting of those mantras which are not

received through a bona fide apostolic succession (sampradaya) bear NO

fruit or result (nisphala).

"One should not fail to strictly follow the rules and regulations in

worshiping the Deity." NOD chpt 8

"Other rules are that one should not offer foodstuff which is cooked by

a non-Vaisnava." NOD chpt 8

"One should not worship the Deity before a nondevotee." NOD chpt 8

(This seems not to be the offering of arati but the worship ceremonies

that are performed behind the curtains, privately by the pujaris)

"Touching the Deity

In the Visnu-dharmottara there is a statement about touching the lotus

feet of the Lord. It is said: "Only a person who is initiated as a

Vaisnava and is executing devotional service in Krsna consciousness has

the right to touch the body of the Deity." In India there was agitation

during Gandhi's political movement because the lowborn classes of men

like street-sweepers and candalas are prohibited, according to Vedic

system, from entering the temple. Due to their unclean habits they are

prohibited, but at the same time they are given other facilities so

that they may be elevated to the highest grade of devotional service by

association with pure devotees. A man born in any family is not barred,

but he must be cleansed. That cleansing process must be adopted. Gandhi

wanted to make them clean simply by stamping them with a ficticious

name, hari-jana (children of God), and so there was a great tug of war

between the temple owners and Gandhi's followers.

But anyway, the present law is the law of all scripture - that if

anyone is purified he can enter the temple. Actually, that is the

position. Only one who is properly initiated, who is properly following

the rules and regulations, can enter and touch the Deity - not all."

NOD chpt 9

Please also note that in the 11 canto of Srimad Bhagavatam Chapter 27

"Lord Krsna's Instructions on the process of Deity Worship" the very

first qualification mentioned for the worshiper is "dvijatvam" (twice

born status). See 11.27.8 as follows "Now please listen faithfully as I

explain exactly how a person who has achieved twice-born status through

the relevant Vedic prescriptions should worship Me with devotion." The

next verse 11.27.9 also mentions this as a prerequisite. And the next

two verses 11.27.10 mention that the worshiper should chant Vedic

mantras and Gayatri at the 3 sandhya times.

> Recently I did 2 samskaras for devotee children (namakarana,

> anna prasanna) when the likes of Gaura Kesava and Narasimha Kavaca

> Prabhus

> are not nearby. If more qualified brahmanas were there I woulld not

> do the

> samskaras, as I think I am not fit to do all these samskaras. I would

> ask

> the parents to look for more qualified brahmanas. However the devotees

> said, they wanted only ISKCON priest do it for them so I did perform

> the

> samskaras.

That's very nice but I also don't see the relevance of this paragraph.

This has nothing to do with the above main point.

So let me ask you a question. Would these devotees want an uninitiated

person to do these samskaras?

There are several points being tossed around in this email. But let us

stick to the main one. You are proposing a scenario and suggesting a

solution which is unsastric. However I can suggest a sastric solution

to your extremely unlikely scenario. If indeed the only person left in

an ISKCON Temple is a first initiated or un-initiated devotee and the

deities are in need of a pujari, the solution is simple. That devotee

needs to call his or her GBC member who is responsible for the puja and

arrange for someone present on the spot to be initiated with the

Pancaratric mantras so that the deity worship can go on without offense

or break.

Srila Prabhupada showed us many times like in the case you quoted in

Sydney, Australia where he initiated persons to do the puja. This

initiation does not require that the Diksha Guru be physically present.

We have seen that Srila Prabhupada delivered these mantras to some of

his disciples by tape recording. Similarly we have telephone, tape, cd,

video, computer, email, fax, etc, etc, these days. All these things

although not traditional are not against the sastra. Therefore the

Diksha Guru can initiate a person immediately (by long distance if

necessary) to fill the void left in your hypothetical scenario

I anticipate that some persons will object to this saying that perhaps

the person who is to be given diksha is not qualified to receive it.

The answer is IF HE IS NOT QUALIFIED TO GET THE DIKSHA HOW IS HE

QUALIFIED TO TOUCH THE DEITY AND DO THE PUJA?

So you see there is actually ABSOLUTELY NO excuse for saying that there

are no brahmanas (2nd initiates, whatever) to do the puja in ISKCON

Temples. If there are none then make some. Srila Prabhupada in fact did

this. Stop trying to say that on one hand someone is qualified to do

puja but is unqualified to receive diksha.

ys

GKD

June 22, 2004

Dear Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP.

This time also I agree to everything you say.

However still it is not clear to me "In the situation I referred, in the

interim period, until we get the diksa by telephone, especially for the

ISKCON installed dieties what does guru, sadhu and sastra recommend?"

I will be grateful for any information in this regard.

"May there be good fortune throughout the universe, and may all envious

persons be pacified. May all living entities become calm by practicing

bhakti-yoga, for by accepting devotional service they will think of each

other's welfare. Therefore let us all engage in the service of the supreme

transcendence, Lord Sri Krishna, and always remain absorbed in thought of

Him."

(Srimad Bhagavatam 5:18:9.)

The above sloka is nothing related to the topic of discussion, but I have

this practice of reminding myself of some sloka from Bg or SB when I am not

happy, to lift my self up.

Hare Krishna,

Let's chant and be happy!!!

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

-

"Gregory Jay" <gregjay (AT) softhome (DOT) net>

"Bhadra Govinda Dasa" <raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg>

Cc: "Nrsimha Kavaca (das) IDS" <Nrsimha.Kavaca.IDS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "Tattvavit

(das) ACBSP (BBT)" <Tattvavit.ACBSP (AT) pamho (DOT) net>; "India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum)" <India.Open (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Tuesday, June 22, 2004 1:25 PM

Re: non-initiates performing arcana

> To Whom it may concern especially, Bhadra Govinda das aka

> raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg,

>

> PAMHO AGTSP

>

> Before I respond again to these ideas, I would like to make plain my

> opinion with regards to statements in the sastra about these sort of

> things. Many times it is mentioned in the sastra that it is an offense

> to do a certain thing, and some sort of punishment is given. One should

> note that the punishment is always temporary. Vaisnavas (except perhaps

> Madhvas) do not believe in eternal punishment. Then again many times it

> is mentioned that one derives spiritual benefit from performing certain

> acts, (even though one may not be qualified to do them?). Please note

> that spiritual benefits are eternal. Therefore under certain

> circumstances one could say that since the benefits are eternal and the

> punishment is temporary that one would be justified in performing the

> act even though one is not fit sastrically to do so. However this is

> not usually the system. A good example of this is touching the deity or

> salagrama. According to the sastra non-Vaisnavas are forbidden to touch

> the deity or salagama. The punishment given in Hari Bhakti Vilasa is

> going to hell as long as the sun and moon shine (temporary but a long

> time). However Hari Bhakti Vilasa also mentions the eternal benefits

> for those who do touch the deity or salagrama. The question is should

> non-Vaisnavas do this? Since it is not recommended by the sastra the

> answer is NO. If a situation occurs where this happens then the persons

> who authorize, encourage, or actually participate in this offense are

> all responsible. Only the actual person who touches the deity or

> salagrama will derive the benefit as well as the punishment. Those in

> positions of authority who encourage anti-sastric behavior will have to

> share in the punishment. Guru na sah syat, etc.

>

> On Jun 19, 2004, at 6:09 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa aka

> raganuga (AT) cyberway (DOT) com.sg wrote:

>

> > In an ISKCON temple (not the home deities) where deities are

> > installed, say

> > the brahmanas who regularly perform worship are not available for what

> > ever

> > reasons (may be they suddenly lost faith, fell down and left the

> > movement,

> > Krishna forbid). Who ever left behind is say only first initiation

> > devotees or some 16 rounders with out even first initiation. Until

> > you send

> > another brahmana there, or until we get the existing devoteees their

> > second

> > initiation, say it may take a week's time. At that time *in the

> > interim

> > period* for that week, do we allow the first initiated devotees or 16

> > rounders, to perform the seva (if they are willing to) or do we shut

> > down

> > the altar until some qualified brahmanas come there?

> >

> > Do we not "choose the best among the available lot" in a particular

> > situation, with out stopping seva?

>

> To your knowledge has such a situation ever occurred? You keep writing

> as though this is a real situation. Probably this will never occur.

> Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Bhagavatam that there should be at

> least 3 or 4 brahmanas when deities (I believe he mentions Radha Krsna)

> are installed. So I cannot think of when there was a situation where 3

> or 4 pujaris (who were the ONLY brahmanas in the temple) left exactly

> at the same time. One should admit that this would be an exceptionally

> strange circumstance. The only situation I can think of like this is

> when an ISKCON guru bloops and his disciples all go with him.

> Particularly I was thinking of 1982 when Jayatirtha left. Even in that

> circumstance, there were still Prabhupada disciples around. Recently

> when Harikesha left from Europe there may have been some situation

> "like" this. But even then there are certainly some qualified persons

> available for doing the puja. Whether they refuse to do it or not is

> another question.

>

> > This is true even when there are many qualified brahmanas for the

> > service.

> > For eg in the recent Sri Panca Tattva deity installation, at Mayapur

> > out of

> > hundreds of brahmanas who attended the ceremony, only a handful, that

> > is the

> > "best among the available lot" were allowed for the service.

>

> Sorry I don't understand this point. This is a negative proof. It does

> not prove anything about the previous statement.

>

> > And it has to

> > be like that. I was there also with my 10 cent thread. I would not

> > dare

> > claim my entry on to the altar, when all the more qualified brahmanas

> > are

> > around. However if in some situation when more qualified brahmanas

> > are not

> > there, I definitely do offer my seva, even though I think I am not

> > qualified.

>

> Certainly in complex rituals like installation one may not be trained

> as others have been. That however does not disqualify one from helping

> in some way. Not everyone involved in an installation ceremony will

> need to perform complex rituals. Sometimes it is enough to help by

> ringing a bell or waving a camara or reading from sastra. But still the

> basic qualification for all those services in the temple is 2nd

> initiation.

>

> The problem is that we do many different types of puja as you say. And

> we see the qualifications for them as being different. However the

> sastra does not support this.

>

> Technically one must be a Vaisnava to perform Vaisnava worship. One is

> not technically a Vaisnava unless and until one has taken diksha

> (Vaisnava Pancaratric diksha). Vaisnava worship is performed with

> Pancaratric mantras. One who does not have those mantras will naturally

> not be able to perform such worship. One gets those mantras (and

> thereby the ability to use them in worship) at the time of Vaisnava

> Pancaratric diksha. Actually the giving and receiving of those mantras

> IS the essence of Vaisnava Pancaratric diksha. Sampradaya vihinam ye

> mantras te nisphlala matah. The chanting of those mantras which are not

> received through a bona fide apostolic succession (sampradaya) bear NO

> fruit or result (nisphala).

>

> "One should not fail to strictly follow the rules and regulations in

> worshiping the Deity." NOD chpt 8

>

> "Other rules are that one should not offer foodstuff which is cooked by

> a non-Vaisnava." NOD chpt 8

>

> "One should not worship the Deity before a nondevotee." NOD chpt 8

> (This seems not to be the offering of arati but the worship ceremonies

> that are performed behind the curtains, privately by the pujaris)

>

> "Touching the Deity

>

> In the Visnu-dharmottara there is a statement about touching the lotus

> feet of the Lord. It is said: "Only a person who is initiated as a

> Vaisnava and is executing devotional service in Krsna consciousness has

> the right to touch the body of the Deity." In India there was agitation

> during Gandhi's political movement because the lowborn classes of men

> like street-sweepers and candalas are prohibited, according to Vedic

> system, from entering the temple. Due to their unclean habits they are

> prohibited, but at the same time they are given other facilities so

> that they may be elevated to the highest grade of devotional service by

> association with pure devotees. A man born in any family is not barred,

> but he must be cleansed. That cleansing process must be adopted. Gandhi

> wanted to make them clean simply by stamping them with a ficticious

> name, hari-jana (children of God), and so there was a great tug of war

> between the temple owners and Gandhi's followers.

>

> But anyway, the present law is the law of all scripture - that if

> anyone is purified he can enter the temple. Actually, that is the

> position. Only one who is properly initiated, who is properly following

> the rules and regulations, can enter and touch the Deity - not all."

> NOD chpt 9

>

> Please also note that in the 11 canto of Srimad Bhagavatam Chapter 27

> "Lord Krsna's Instructions on the process of Deity Worship" the very

> first qualification mentioned for the worshiper is "dvijatvam" (twice

> born status). See 11.27.8 as follows "Now please listen faithfully as I

> explain exactly how a person who has achieved twice-born status through

> the relevant Vedic prescriptions should worship Me with devotion." The

> next verse 11.27.9 also mentions this as a prerequisite. And the next

> two verses 11.27.10 mention that the worshiper should chant Vedic

> mantras and Gayatri at the 3 sandhya times.

>

> > Recently I did 2 samskaras for devotee children (namakarana,

> > anna prasanna) when the likes of Gaura Kesava and Narasimha Kavaca

> > Prabhus

> > are not nearby. If more qualified brahmanas were there I woulld not

> > do the

> > samskaras, as I think I am not fit to do all these samskaras. I would

> > ask

> > the parents to look for more qualified brahmanas. However the devotees

> > said, they wanted only ISKCON priest do it for them so I did perform

> > the

> > samskaras.

>

> That's very nice but I also don't see the relevance of this paragraph.

> This has nothing to do with the above main point.

>

> So let me ask you a question. Would these devotees want an uninitiated

> person to do these samskaras?

>

> There are several points being tossed around in this email. But let us

> stick to the main one. You are proposing a scenario and suggesting a

> solution which is unsastric. However I can suggest a sastric solution

> to your extremely unlikely scenario. If indeed the only person left in

> an ISKCON Temple is a first initiated or un-initiated devotee and the

> deities are in need of a pujari, the solution is simple. That devotee

> needs to call his or her GBC member who is responsible for the puja and

> arrange for someone present on the spot to be initiated with the

> Pancaratric mantras so that the deity worship can go on without offense

> or break.

>

> Srila Prabhupada showed us many times like in the case you quoted in

> Sydney, Australia where he initiated persons to do the puja. This

> initiation does not require that the Diksha Guru be physically present.

> We have seen that Srila Prabhupada delivered these mantras to some of

> his disciples by tape recording. Similarly we have telephone, tape, cd,

> video, computer, email, fax, etc, etc, these days. All these things

> although not traditional are not against the sastra. Therefore the

> Diksha Guru can initiate a person immediately (by long distance if

> necessary) to fill the void left in your hypothetical scenario

>

> I anticipate that some persons will object to this saying that perhaps

> the person who is to be given diksha is not qualified to receive it.

> The answer is IF HE IS NOT QUALIFIED TO GET THE DIKSHA HOW IS HE

> QUALIFIED TO TOUCH THE DEITY AND DO THE PUJA?

>

> So you see there is actually ABSOLUTELY NO excuse for saying that there

> are no brahmanas (2nd initiates, whatever) to do the puja in ISKCON

> Temples. If there are none then make some. Srila Prabhupada in fact did

> this. Stop trying to say that on one hand someone is qualified to do

> puja but is unqualified to receive diksha.

>

> ys

>

> GKD

>

June 22, 2004

10 Jun 04

Gaura Kesava Prabhu wrote:

> I have told you that

> there are NO ISKCON Temples without initiated devotees.

And he wrote earlier:

> there are many instances in ISKCON where first or non

> initiated devotees actually do perform deity worship even though this does

> not seem to conform to Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

This has become accepted in ISKCON although it is clearly a compromise of

standards given by Srila Prabhupada.---reply by HH Bhakti Vikasa Swami

Maharaja on 16 May .

And I Bhadra Govinda Dasa, was trying to say case to case it may be

different. For example consider the following cases.

1. There may be ISKCON Home temples with initiated devotees where some times

some standards may be relaxed by the house members, for genuine reasons

during bad health, outstation etc,.

2. There may be ISKCON main temples where there may be some practical

problems, where there may be shortage of man power, at certain times for

some unforseen circumstances where standards may be relaxed.

The above two may be genuine cases. and case 3

3. There may be standards relaxed *due to negligence* of the home members

and of the temple inmates, and not due to some genuine problem.

So we have to be compassionate to the needs of the situation in case 1 and 2

above. And case 3 above is serious and needs to be condemned, which I too

agree with Gaura Kesava Prabhu and Narasimha Kavaca Prabhu for condemning

case 3.

I thank all the devotees for their wonderful inputs on deity worship.

Let's chant and be happy.

Hare Krishna,

Your humble servant,

Bhadra Govinda Dasa.

June 22, 2004

Dear Bhadra Govindaji, PAMHO AGTSP

On Jun 22, 2004, at 4:42 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

> However still it is not clear to me "In the situation I referred, in

> the

> interim period, until we get the diksa by telephone, especially for

> the

> ISKCON installed dieties what does guru, sadhu and sastra recommend?"

>

> I will be grateful for any information in this regard.

Let's be clear on this. Gurus and sadhus always recommend the sastric

way. There is no difference. Here is a quote from Caitanya Caritamrta

concerning the items that can be performed even by non-initiates.

The method of worshiping the deity is described in CC Mad 24.334

purport as follows:

In the Hari-Bhakti-vilasa (Eleventh Vilasa, verses 127-140) there is a

vivid description of what is required in Deity worship. There are

sixty-four items mentioned. In the temple, worship should be so

gorgeous that all sixty four items should be available for the

satisfaction of the Personality of Godhead. Sometimes it is impossible

to get all sixty-four items; therefore we recommend that at least on

the first day of installation all sixty-four items should be available.

When the Lord is established, worship with all sixty-four items should

continue as far as possible.

(So these items should continue as far as possible. Since it is not

possible for a person without pancaratric diksha to perform pancaratric

worship, without committing offense, by going against Srila

Prabhupada's instructions and the dictates of the sastra, I will

outline those activities of the 64 which can continue until someone

qualified by pancaratric diksha is available to perform the rest.)

The sixty-four items are as follows:

1) There must be a big bell hanging in front of the temple room for

anyone to ring who comes. This item is called prabhodana, or offering

the Lord one's submission.

2) The devotee or visitor must chant the Deities' names such as "Jaya

Sri Radha-Govinda" or "Jaya Sri Radha Madhava" as he rings the bell.

This word "Jaya" must be uttered.

3) Immediately offer obeisances to the Lord by falling down like a

stick.

5) There must be an asana, a sitting place before the altar. This asana

is for the spiritual master. The disciple brings everything before the

spiritual master, and the spiritual master offers everything to the

Supreme Personality of Godhead.

(So if people consider themselves disciples even though they are not

formally initiated then they can bring things and place them at the

asana for the spiritual master to offer. But since in your scenario the

spiritual master is not present to make the offering this might not be

very effective. Please also note that formally initiated disciples also

take permission from the spiritual master before offering items to the

Lord.)

31) Precautions should always be taken to protect the body of the Lord

from demons and atheists.

50) The Hare Krsna mantra and other approved songs should be regularly

chanted.

51) Musical instruments should be played.

52) One should dance before the Deity.

53) One should circumnambulate the Deity.

54) One should offer obeisances to the Deity.

55) One should offer different types of prayers and hymns at the lotus

feet of the Deity.

57) One should touch to one's head the flowers offered to the Lord on

the previous day.

58) One should regularly take prasadam, the remnants of food offered to

the Lord.

The last two items assume that there are some offered flowers and

prasadam that was cooked and offered previously by the pujari before

he/she left. Otherwise it would not be possible to offer any flowers or

bhoga and subsequently honor them.

I would say that the most important item would be item #50. That the

persons who are present should chant "Hare Krsna", thus continuing the

worship of the deity through the agency of Harinama Sankirtana (for

which all are eligible without distinction) and make arrangements for

themselves to become qualified or for a qualified person to come and

again start offering the rest of the items.

So the answer to your question is that there are at least 10 (or 11 if

your include #5 or 13 if you include #57-58) items of the 64 that may

be done in the absence of devotees with pancaratric diksha.

ys

Gaura Keshava dasa

June 23, 2004

Dear Bhadra Govinda prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your letter.

> In an ISKCON temple (not the home deities) where deities are installed,

> say the brahmanas who regularly perform worship are not available for what

> ever reasons (may be they suddenly lost faith, fell down and left the

> movement, Krishna forbid). Who ever left behind is say only first

> initiation devotees or some 16 rounders with out even first initiation.

> Until you send another brahmana there, or until we get the existing

> devoteees their second initiation, say it may take a week's time. At that

> time *in the interim period* for that week, do we allow the first

> initiated devotees or 16 rounders, to perform the seva (if they are

> willing to) or do we shut down the altar until some qualified brahmanas

> come there?

If we study and follow the instructions given by Srila Prabhupada about the

installing and worshiping of deities you will understand that this

hypothetical situation you talk about just will not happen.

Some quotes from Srila Prabhupada to substantiate my point:

As far as your desire to have Sita Rama Deities, it is a good idea, but you

should wait for some time. First see that you have sufficient brahmanas who

are very well trained and qualified, then you can consider to install Sita,

Rama, Laksmana, and Hanuman.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Brisakapi -- Nellore 7 January, 1976

No you should not install Gaura nitai deities if you do not have the

required Brahmins. Better wait.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Hrdayananda -- Vrindaban 7 December, 1975

Srila Prabhupada again and again instructed the leaders of the society to

only install deities if there were sufficient brahmanasa available so that

the worship would go on even if someone unfortunately left.

He generally suggested there should be between 8 and 15 brahmanas before the

devotees could consider installing deities.

> Do we not "choose the best among the available lot" in a particular

> situation, with out stopping seva?

Then what do we do when we cannot find a first initiate to worship the

deities? Or what if we cannot find someone who is chanting sixteen rounds?

Eventually with the kind of rationale you are promoting we will employ

unqualified people to worship the deity. Sorry your ideas are just

unacceptable. As soon as the qualification to do the seva is lost it is no

longer seva, but idolatry.

What we do choose to do is follow the instructions of the acaryas, not

arbitrarily or whimsically make our own process of devotional service. If we

are not following the system given by the acaryas there is little chance

that Krsna will accept our offerings.

Another quote from Srila Prabhupada:

Our Deity worship is not heathenism. If we keep Forms of the Lord without

worshipping the Deity under regulative principles, it will gradually turn

into idol worship, which is an offense.

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Letter to: Syamasundara -- Los Angeles 15 July, 1969

> This is true even when there are many qualified brahmanas for the service.

> For eg in the recent Sri Panca Tattva deity installation, at Mayapur out

> of hundreds of brahmanas who attended the ceremony, only a handful, that

> is the "best among the available lot" were allowed for the service. And

> it has to be like that. I was there also with my 10 cent thread. I

This is an opinion and not what actually happened. I was closely involved in

the planning and execution of the installation and was given the service of

organizing the abhiseka and can tell you for certain that this was not the

consideration. The selection of who would do the abhiseka was made by the

GBC and they asked that only the Mayapur pujaris do the abhiseka in order

that it may logistically go smoothly and to avoid possible political issues

about whether or not matajis or gurukulis etc. could be involved. There was

more than 7,000 devotees in Mayapur for the installation and it was not

physically possible for all of them to participate directly in the bathing

in the alloted time.

> would not dare claim my entry on to the altar, when all the more

Neither would I, but to my great surprise, I was asked to do it by my

worshipable superiors.

There were many highly qualified brahmanas and sannyasis present who did not

get the opportunity to bathe the Panca-tattva. I can only put it down to the

mercy of Mahaprabhu.

Look forward to hearing from you soon.

Your servant,

Nrsimha Kavaca dasa

Please visit our website: http://www.deityworship.com

June 23, 2004

Dear Bhadra Govindaji, PAMHO AGTSP

On Jun 22, 2004, at 5:26 AM, Bhadra Govinda Dasa wrote:

> 10 Jun 04

>

> Gaura Kesava Prabhu wrote:

>

>> I have told you that

>> there are NO ISKCON Temples without initiated devotees.

Right, and you have failed to provide the name of any ISKCON temple

with installed deities that is run completely by non-initiates. Please

stop belaboring this point.

> And he wrote earlier:

>

>> there are many instances in ISKCON where first or non

>> initiated devotees actually do perform deity worship even though this

>> does

>> not seem to conform to Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

What is the point in quoting this? If it is against sastra and Srila

Prabhupada's instructions then no amount of people doing it makes it

right.

> This has become accepted in ISKCON although it is clearly a compromise

> of

> standards given by Srila Prabhupada.---reply by HH Bhakti Vikasa Swami

> Maharaja on 16 May .

Again just because it is "accepted" practice does not prove that it is

right and should continue.

> And I Bhadra Govinda Dasa, was trying to say case to case it may be

> different.

What you keep saying is that sometimes we should disobey Srila

Prabhupada and sastra according to your opinion.

> For example consider the following cases.

>

> 1. There may be ISKCON Home temples with initiated devotees where some

> times

> some standards may be relaxed by the house members, for genuine reasons

> during bad health, outstation etc,.

Please stop referring to ISKCON Home temples. There is no such thing.

We already discussed the home puja situation.

> 2. There may be ISKCON main temples where there may be some practical

> problems, where there may be shortage of man power, at certain times

> for

> some unforseen circumstances where standards may be relaxed.

I have shown Srila Prabhupada's instructions that the standard should

continue as far as possible. I have also proven with numerous quotes

that his standard was 2nd initiates to do the arcana. I have also shown

how others who are unqualified can become qualified instantly by

getting diksha. And further more I have also shown how those without

qualification can continue the worship of the Lord by Harinam

Sanskirtana until a qualified 2nd initiate is available. My solutions

are all sastric and according to Srila Prabhupada's example and

instructions.

On the other hand. You have suggested the "accepted" solution which is

unsastric and against Srila Prabhupada's instructions. All along the

way you say that you agree with me. Please stop wasting my time. If you

are unable to give a sastric quote or reason for your opinion please be

silent.

> The above two may be genuine cases. and case 3

>

> 3. There may be standards relaxed *due to negligence* of the home

> members

> and of the temple inmates, and not due to some genuine problem.

>

> So we have to be compassionate to the needs of the situation in case 1

> and 2

> above.

Real compassion is NOT misleading others as to the instructions of the

sastra and the guru. Compassion means helping people who are ignorant

of the sastric situation to understand it and follow it. Compassion

does not mean leading people astray.

> And case 3 above is serious and needs to be condemned, which I too

> agree with Gaura Kesava Prabhu and Narasimha Kavaca Prabhu for

> condemning

> case 3.

Again you are reading my email but still not understanding it. It is

not us that condemn arcana by non-initiates, it is Srila Prabhupada and

the sastra.

ys

Gaura Keshava dasa

July 4, 2004

Dear Bhadra Govinda prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your letter.

> I am aware and understand fully well, what ever rules and regulations you

> and Gaura Kesava Prabhu are quoting. No where I have said, that we must

> condone these rules and regulations, for general circumstances. I am

> really surprised that, you are simply assuming things which I never said,

> and putting words into my mouth.

I respond to what you write. Nothing more.

> It is obvious that when I say " We do choose the best among the available

> lot" for what ever criteria it may be, that there is a basic minimum

Change the word "lot" to "brahmanas" then we are on the same wavelength.

> In unforseen circumstances, in times of emergency, I am referring to:

>

> I am asking at what level we draw the line for unforseen circumstances?

> 2nd initiation? If so, so be it. First initiation, we draw the line? so

> be it. All that I am asking is in unforseen circumstances, like we allow

> a twice initiated woman during her monthly cycle (only Gaudiya acaryas

> allow this) perform seva, similarly do Gaudiya acaryas allow for some

> relaxation when no qualified brahmana is around?

If we follow the standards for installation given by Srila Prabhupada then

the type of questions you are asking here do not arise. Srila Prabhupada

generally insisted that 8-12 brahmanas were required to install deities. If

we focus on maintaining this many brahmanas to worship the deities then the

hypothetical situation you are discussing should not arise. However because

we have not done this and allowed things to slip then we find these kinds of

things are happening.

You talk about Gaudiya acarayas allowing women to worship the deity during

their menstrual cycle, I would say one Gaudiya acarya, here is the quote:

According to the smarta vidhi, women cannot touch deity during menstrual

period but the goswami viddhi allows. But it is better not to do it. One

thing is that the seva can never be stopped for any reason. This also for

the cooking.

Letter to: Amsu: -- Vrindaban 13 August, 1974

You may note that Srila Prabhupada said that it should not happen, but if

there was no one else to do it then a mataji who is contaminated should do

it, however she should still be a brahmana. He did not opt for a suchi

non-brahmana in deference to a contaminated brahmana. This is one of the

basic qualifications for the worship of temple deities.

This is a consideration of cleanlines, not qualification. There are certain

things that can be adjusted and there are certain things that cannot.

There are many different gradations of cleanliness. To worship the deity a

person must be clean, wearing clean cloth etc. If the highest standard is

not available then we opt for the next. If this is not available then the

next and so on. However all these persons who are being considered for

worshiping the deity must have the appropriate qualification of being a

brahmana. If they do not then they cannot be considered for worshiping the

diety in the temple.

Would you allow a plumber to do your engineering work if you did not have a

suitably qualified engineer to do the job?

> For every rule there is an exception. But we must understand that even

> for exception there is a rule. What is that rule for these exceptional

> cases according to Guru, Sadhu and Shastra?

I do not agree. Is this a sastric conclusion or simply a materialistic

opinion of those who do not like to follow rules. Sounds very much like the

phrase I used when I was a child a school. "Rules are made to be broken."

The rules and principles of devotional service cannot be adjusted. I can

immediately think of four rules that every Vaisnava follows that there are

no exceptions for. There are many more, such as brahmanas only doing the

worship in the temple. I could name many others but they are not relevant

here.

You might like to read further in the sixth chapter of the NoD, "How to

discharge devotional service. In the beginning of the chapter principles and

details of devotional service are discussed then the list of principles are

given. The second item is "becoming initiated by the spiritual master and

learning how to discharge devotional service from him" The worship of the

deity is part of this and becoming initiated also means gayatri diksa. As it

is described in the introduction to the Pancaratra pradipa:

"The Pancaratra-sastra clearly defines the preliminary qualifications a

person must have to perform arcana. Family origins and social position are

not considerations; all that is required is strong faith in Visnu, or Krsna.

By the authority of the Pancaratra scriptures, when the spiritual master

judges his disciple qualified with sincere faith, he gives the disciple

Vaisnava diksa, also known as panca-samskara, which consists of taking a

Vaisnava name, wearing Vaisnava tilaka, wearing Vaisnava symbols, receiving

Vaisnava mantras (secret mantras concerning Visnu or Krsna), and learning

the method of worshiping the Deity. The disciple is then qualified to

perform arcana."

Initiation means receiving the pancaratrika mantras with which we worship

the deity and also learning the method of worship. Without receiving these

from the spiritual master how can a devotee honestly engage in the worship

of the deity?

> Thank you for your valuable time.

You are welcome prabhu.

> I pray for the mercy of that Supreme Lord Jagannatha, who allows even

> sabaras, the pig keepers to serve Him.--- Now, now don't assume that I

> am recommending we must in general allow all kinds of sabaras on to our

> altars. This is simply a prayer and realisation, that how merciful and

> supremely independent is our Lord.

Even Lord Jagannatha does not allow them on the altar. They get to serve the

Lord when He comes out of the temple. When Jagannatha comes off the altar He

takes the mood of patita pavana. He is very merciful to the fallen.

You will see the same things happen at festivals in ISKCON. It has long been

a tradition in our temples that all devotees get to bathe Jagannatha at

snana yatra, or push the swing during jhulana yatra, or pull the ropes for

ratha yatra. Nothing breaking or bending rules here.

Your servant,

Nrsimha Kavaca dasa

Please visit our website: http://www.deityworship.com

July 6, 2004

> I can immediately think of four rules that every Vaisnava

> follows that there are no exceptions for.

Even the great Vishvamitra was willing to eat the meat of a dog when

necessity arose, and Vaishnava acharya's have cited this example as evidence

that this rule (of no meat eating) can be broken under extreme

circumstances. There are similar exemptions to most of the other regulations

we follow. Certainly the claim that "every Vaishnava" follows these rules is

foolish. Just stick with ISKCON and say all ISKCON devotees are required to

follow these regulations. Even then there are exceptions cited by our

acharyas where these rules may be broken under extreme circumstances.

>You will see the same things happen at festivals in ISKCON.

>It has long been a tradition in our temples that all devotees

>get to bathe Jagannatha at snana yatra, or push the swing

>during jhulana yatra, or pull the ropes for ratha yatra.

>Nothing breaking or bending rules here.

It is nothing even remotely similar. The sabaras eat along with the Lord on

the same plate, in addition to countless other uncustomary practices. There

is no comparison to festivals conducted in ISKCON temples where the public

is involved in the worship and the worship practiced by the sabaras.

"Nothing breaking or bending the rules..."? Maybe you haven't studied the

customs of the sabara?

There is an obvious reason why Ramanuja wanted to change the system of

worship in Puri to Pancharatra.

July 6, 2004

Dear Ram Laksmanji, PAMHO AGTSP

Thanks for your email. The two points included are well taken.

1. The basic for all rules and regulations is to always remember Krsna

and never forget Him (see Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu). Therefore there can

be exceptional circumstances where on might have to "eat meat" for

example.

2. The customs and worship of Jagannatha in Puri is not according to

Vaisnava Pancaratric system. (Which I did point out in my emails to

Bhadra Govinda das, even if Nrsimha Kavacaji did not, for those of you

who were following the discussion)

Thank you.

However neither of your points supports the claim by the originator of

this discussion (Bhadra Govinda das) that "non-initiates be allowed to

worship deities in ISKCON temples". Eating meat may be a necessity but

the worship of the deity in ISKCON can and should be carried on only by

properly initiated devotees according to the standard of HDG Srila

Prabhupada. If by some exceptional circumstances there is absolutely no

initiated devotee present, those who are present may chant the Hare

Krsna mahamantra and in this way please the Supreme Lord in His deity

form. I have pointed out all these things in previous emails.

Again thank you Ram Laksmanji for your special perspective on the

Sabharas. You certainly should know as I see your email address is

Bhuvanesvara.

Just as a note of interest there is one place where we can see the

worship of Jagannatha according to Pancaratric principles. The

Jagannatha Math in Sri Rangam where the deities are said to have been

carved by Mahaprabhu Himself while staying there during the caturmasya

of 1512 AD. If any one is interested in this I have photos and video of

that worship.

ys

Gaura Keshava das

On Jul 5, 2004, at 11:09 PM, Ram Lakshman (das) (Bhubaneshwar - IN)

wrote:

>> I can immediately think of four rules that every Vaisnava

>> follows that there are no exceptions for.

>

> Even the great Vishvamitra was willing to eat the meat of a dog when

> necessity arose, and Vaishnava acharya's have cited this example as

> evidence

> that this rule (of no meat eating) can be broken under extreme

> circumstances. There are similar exemptions to most of the other

> regulations

> we follow. Certainly the claim that "every Vaishnava" follows these

> rules is

> foolish. Just stick with ISKCON and say all ISKCON devotees are

> required to

> follow these regulations. Even then there are exceptions cited by our

> acharyas where these rules may be broken under extreme circumstances.

>

>> You will see the same things happen at festivals in ISKCON.

>> It has long been a tradition in our temples that all devotees

>> get to bathe Jagannatha at snana yatra, or push the swing

>> during jhulana yatra, or pull the ropes for ratha yatra.

>> Nothing breaking or bending rules here.

>

> It is nothing even remotely similar. The sabaras eat along with the

> Lord on

> the same plate, in addition to countless other uncustomary practices.

> There

> is no comparison to festivals conducted in ISKCON temples where the

> public

> is involved in the worship and the worship practiced by the sabaras.

>

> "Nothing breaking or bending the rules..."? Maybe you haven't studied

> the

> customs of the sabara?

>

> There is an obvious reason why Ramanuja wanted to change the system of

> worship in Puri to Pancharatra.

>

Sign In

non-initiates performing arcana

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Share this post

Link to post

Share on other sites

Join the conversation

Support the Ashram

Join Groups

Top Downloads