Speaking from experience

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Possibly, if Sri Galim knew that he would not have been condemned for these

> desires and could go somewhere to satisfy these demands of the body and

> return to his service he could have been a great asset.

 

Once he was married, he was never know to mess with kids again, that is

factual. Only while being a brahmacari. My guess is most molesters were

celibates.

[Guest guest]

At 9:33 -0800 1/25/2000, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan

- USA) wrote:

 

 

>Once he was married, he was never know to mess with kids again, that is

>factual. Only while being a brahmacari.

 

As far as I know, the same occurred with Satadhanya.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> > But doesn't everyone start with a dirty heart and isn't that the reason

> > we

> all begin this process in the first place? Is there some time schedule

> that I missed because I was behind the door when they were passing them

> out, that said the "wash" cycle only lasts "this" long and if you don't

> meet the schedule you are OUT?

> >

>

>

>

> If one covets his impure desires, he can't chant for millions of lifetimes

> with nominal effect

 

 

Interesting. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have scriptural

evidence of this. And if so, if it is not the chanting of the holy names,

how does one in the material world, who has ONLY impure desires, stop the

covetousness? What gives the purification? When does it begin?

 

What is the meaning of ceto darpanam marjanam?

 

I tend to disagree with your perspective, but I would be interested in

discussing it further and reviewing your sastric evidence. I believe there

is another element to the formula.

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > Possibly, if Sri Galim knew that he would not have been condemned for

> > these desires and could go somewhere to satisfy these demands of the

> > body and return to his service he could have been a great asset.

>

> Once he was married, he was never know to mess with kids again, that is

> factual.

 

 

Nice to hear.

 

 

> Only while being a brahmacari. My guess is most molesters were

> celibates.

 

Or, possibly, married to devotee wives who chose not to provide sexual

release to their husbands. Which is OK, but because the devotee husband

would have no place to go "outside" of the society without being totally

shunned, they will promote such things WITHIN society.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His

Divine Grace Srila Prbhupada

 

First off - my trying to answer someone who specifically asks me a question

or addresses something I have said as thoroughly as possible is not

representative of an equal penchant for wrangling. It is a sign of respect

for the "intent" of the devotee that I would take the time to attempt to

clarify my position. That's all. My initial reference to His Grace Hari Kesa

prabhu was seen as "offensive" by Harsi prabhu and then my sub sequent

response to him was seen as something else by Mother Sraddha Dasi. All of

you must learn to focus on the actual points being made or we will all go

round and round.

 

Secondly and most importantly, my sign off "you have my blesssings to follow

HariKesa prabhu to wherever" was in no way sarcastic. It was a deliberate

and direct encouragement to continue on in your service in his company and

hopefully the results of that will be positive. If you feel it to be

something less than postive than you must ask yourselves if you are as

confident of his guidance as you present yourselves to be. The age old maxim

"A man's mind changed against his will is of the same opinion still" is a

simple truth that has proven itself to be reality more often than not! Your

case is not exempt.

 

Third point - if my responding so comprehensively and honestly is perceived

as being "Full of myself" then there really is no purpose to our

communicating. So my last comment "Good Luck" would have to suffice for any

of you that cannot appreciate such frank and open discussion.

 

Fourth point - I was not aware that we were talking of degrees of

contamination. You all seem to be so convinced that Hari Kesa Prabhu is now

all for "honestly" working from the appropriate ashrama and that all

devotees should honestly relate on all issues that precipitate the

development of Krsna Consciousness. Fine -we are in total agreeement. But I

do not hear that in your silly defense of his philosophical position nor in

his own explanations of why he chose to give up his service. Make no

mistake - I am very happy that he is now - at least happily situated in

family life or is trying to be, and is more at peace with himself. Years ago

I was told that he wanted to marry and the devotee who told me was shocked

by my lack of concern over what he considered a serious matter. At that time

I said "Married or Unmarried" I would take one Hari Kesa prabhu over 1000

Gaudiya Math sannyasis on account of his commitment to His Divine Grace and

the samkirtan mission! I still say that today.

But he has not exhibited to me the requisite honesty and humility that would

sustain my respect for him and my above mentioned attitude. If he just said

like most humble and honest men who chose to marry "Well I am sorry but due

to my own weaknesses or offenses or just the fact that I have met an

incredible woman who has captured my heart and I don't want to proceed

without her companionship or whatever, that I need to marry and serve from

that ashrama", I would still respect him. But this is not what transpired.

As far as I was informed (I could be wrong and if I am - enlighten me with

proof) He DEMANDED and RECEIVED from ISKCON a rather large sum of money upon

his departure from ISKCON and this I consider to be a marked sign of his

INSINCERITY not vice versa. When Karandhara prabhu gave up his post in 1974

as GBC Secretary in Los Angeles, He left without taking a single dime!! Not

a single penny! Natha! Srila Prabhupada was informed of this fact and

commented upon his good qualities and said that this is concrete proof of

his integrity and good qualities as a devotee as opposed to another temple

president who left with nearly $50,000.00!!! Now as I understand it - His

Grace Hari Kesa Prabhu left with considerably more than that! So for the

most part, all your protests to the contrary, are for the most part wasted

on me. If he makes some restitution for the odious lawsuit he initiated

against His Divine Grace in Los Angeles ( that's roughly $500,000.00) and

returns every dime he walked out the door with, then we can legitimately

begin talking reconcilliation and reform and consider whatever he might add

to the discussion of Varnashrama Dharma as having some merit. But without

such practical demonstrations of sincerity - all this talk is nothing but

fluff and is not worthy of consideration. So in answer to your question "Do

you not think that Harsi or Sraddha can still benefit from Harikesa's

association" I can only say that I would not let any of MY children within a

mile of the man unless he demonstrated the above mentioned symptoms of

sincerity. As they(Harsi and Sraddha) are someone's children and deserving

of an equal amount of care and precaution - Well you figure it out!!

 

Fifth point - If you ar going to quote me and share that quote with others,

then I would ask that you do so by quoting me completely. That way the

intention of my statement will be properly understood. My statement was "

If you think that a brahmacari's decision to marry, guided or unguided, is

the same as a sannyasi who has been ordered to initiate disciples on behalf

of our Acharya, then there is no point in further discussions between us. I

could only conclude that you are either not serious about getting out of the

material world or you are not very intelligent, you are only interested in

cheating yourself or others or some combination of the three, in which case

you are most unfortunate and will derive no benefit from discussing anything

with me!" Such a statement is an assessment of such a ridiculous position

not of the individuals. It is rhetorical as I am assuming that you indeed do

not and could not equate the two!

 

Sixth point - You have invited me to participate in discussions on

Varnashrama. I would be happy to. Thank you for the invite. But the most

important point in discussing that issue is the need to understand precisely

what Srila Prabhupada wished for all of you as regards initiation as

disciples into his mission. There is still some degree of confusion about

that (This exchange between us is a good case in point) and it is my humble

opinion that any discussion about Varnashrama will need to address this

issue or there is no way to reach a consensus as to what His Divine Grace

envisioned as regards Varnashrama Dharma. The present GBC position on

initiations is ambiguous at best! This is compelling many sincere disciples

such as the hundreds of you there in Europe to seek "shelter" in the

purported "Higher Association" of some of the Gaudiya Math sannyasis etc.

This in turn will increase the conflicting of ideas and the "sentiments" of

various "disciples" and the possibility of uniting as Srila Prabhupada

wished and the establishment of Varnashrama Dharma will become a figment of

our imagination!

 

So Janesvara prabhu, I hope that I have answered your inquiries. If I have

inadvertently offended you I apologise. I have tried to write as honestly

and sincerely as is possible. There really isn't anything more I can add.

 

Ever your loving brother and servant

Praghosa Das

 

 

COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) <Janesvara.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Tuesday, January 25, 2000 12:16 PM

Re: Speaking from experience

 

 

>[Text 2959515 from COM]

>

>> But unlike yourself, and I would assume HG Harikesa prabhu, if he shares

>> your attitude, I am honest enough to admit to myself and anyone else,

>> precisely how and why I chose to marry as opposed to remaining totally

>> available to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. If you think that a

>> brahmacari's decision to marry, guided or unguided, is the same as a

>> sannyasi who has been ordered to initiate disciples on behalf of our

>> Acharya, then there is no point in any further discussions between us. I

>> could only conclude that you are either not serious about getting out of

>> the material world, you are not very intelligent, you are only

interested

>> in cheating yourself and others, or some combination of all three, in

>> which case you are most unfortunate and will derive no benefit from

>> discussing anything with me.

>>

>> You have my full blessings to grow in the association of HG Hari Kesa

>> prabhu and follow him to wherever. Good Luck!

>>

>> Ever your loving brother and servant

>> Praghosa Das

>

>

>Namaste Praghosa. Jaya Prabhupada.

>

>I hope you are not becoming a little too full of yourself Praghosha prabhu,

>simply because of some challenging questions from granddisciples. If so,

you

>are probably better off not discussing too much in these treacherous waters

>of COM and especially the VAD conferences. I have found that there are some

>very intelligent devotees here, both disciples and granddisciples of

>Prabhupada, who, while posing challenging questions to my dull brain, have

>very good intentions in Krsna's service and I have been trying to learn how

>not to discourage them in this endeavor while still offering my

perspectives

>from my own experiences and studies.

>

>Certainly you can't imply that Harsi Prabhu or Sraddha Devi cannot garner

>any value from previous words of Harikesha Prabhu simply because he has

>given up his sannyasi vows due to some material contamination from which we

>ALL suffer to some degree or another. Indeed, you have admitted humbly and

>honestly that due to some material contamination you gave up your "careful

>cultivation of such consciousness and senior association that provided me

>with the determination to remain exclusively available to his Divine

Grace".

>Shall we therefore take all of your words provided in these forums as

>useless? Or is the degree of your material contamination different or less

>than Harikesha's or others who have forsaken their various vows in life and

>therefore we are to accept everything you say as without fault?

>

>I do not think this is your intention. But these devotees still deserve a

>little more than

>">"you are either not serious about getting out of

>> the material world, you are not very intelligent, you are only

interested

>> in cheating yourself and others".

>

>Don't you think?

>

>I remember tons of advice I received from many of my godbrothers who are no

>longer involved with the movement and have forsaken their "vows" to varying

>degrees due to their long conditioning in the material world. You gave up

>your "vowsto remain brahmacari and at the "Beck an Call" of my

Spiritual

>Master" long ago and have remained in the deep dark well of householder

life

>for 18 years. Surely you can admit to many material desires while in that

>well? I know from my own experience of raising four sons about these things

>also. Some of our other godbrothers decided to "renounce" their sannysasi

>vows and take up grihasta life, like Hari Sauri, whom I find quite rightly

>situated. I am sure Harikesha is learning a LOT right about now! And I

>cannot honestly say I know more than him because I don't really know where

>he left off in his learning from his last life.

>

>

>And your signing off statement of:

>

>> You have my full blessings to grow in the association of HG Hari Kesa

>> prabhu and follow him to wherever. Good Luck!

>>

>> Ever your loving brother and servant

>> Praghosa Das

>

>It is nice to know that 18 years of household life also develops a little

>bit of sarcasm! Even in you.

>

>I don't believe anyone in this forum is supporting any statements made by

>Harikesha Prabhu which may be perceived as authorizing blatant disregard

for

>the good advice and instructions of Srila Prabhupada as to the best course

>of action for returning back home, back to Godhead. If Harikesha's present

>perspective on things is somehow effected negatively by his material

>contamination, from which we ALL suffer to some degree or another, we can

>hope that his past service to his spiritual master and his chanting the

Hare

>Krsna mantra will bring him around sooner than later. I am hoping the same

>for myself.

>

>

>Also, despite your seeming disinterest or aloofness, you have a penchant

for

>this "wrangling" and I would prompt you to share some of your perspectives

>on the very important issue of implementing varnasrama dharma in ISKCON, as

>detailed and ordered by our guru maharaja more than 25 years ago, for the

>benefit of Harsi Prabhu, me and all others.

>

>As Srila Prabhupada so nicely instructs us:

>

>Room Conversation Mayapur, February 14, 1977

>Prabhupada: Everywhere, wherever, Mayapura or anywhere. Question is that

>here it is clearly said, sve sve karmany abhiratah. Brahmana has his duty,

>ksatriya has his duty, vaisya has his duty, sudra has his duty. And if he

>performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially

>he should be called a brahmana? Let them do, according to sastra, the work

>of sudra, or vaisya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But

>why artificially he should be made a brahmana or he should be made a

>sannyasi and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better

let

>him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very

>nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varnasramacaravata purusena

>parah puman visnur aradhyate. Visnu, Lord Visnu, can be worshiped if you

>perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varnas and four asramas.

>Here it is also said, sve sve karmani. You work as a perfect brahmana or a

>perfect ksatriya, perfect sudra; you get perfection. The perfection is

>available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become

unnatural

>and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked."

>

>If some of our people in sannyasa dress are now making a wiser choice about

>their lives, shouldn't we encourage such? Or is that once someone accepts a

>position, no matter how uninformed it may have been or through pretensions,

>he is stuck there and MUST pretend to fulfill those "vows" at any cost?

>

>Hari! Hari!

>

>Your servant and godbrother,

>

>Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

"COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2952478 from COM]

>

> At 22:32 -0800 1/22/2000, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New

> Vrindavan - USA) wrote:

> >had nearly perfect

> >sadhana, and, oh yes, had sex with boys in his care.

>

> So much for his "nearly perfect" record.

>

> On a slightly different note, I'm so glad he was finally thrown out.

> The victims I have talked to still have very deep scars.Sometimes I

> feel like there is no punishment severe enough for those who have

> abused our youngest little Vaisnavas, who have led them to believe

> that their treatment was somehow part of our religion, and who have

> turned away from both Krsna and Prabhupada as a consequence. How can

> we let any of them *ever* have any positions in ISKCON (I'm not

> talking about Sri Galim)? While I agree that they, like everyone

> else should be allowed to continue performing service to Guru and

> Krsna, it's incomprehensible to me how *any* of the former abusers

> can be allowed to give class, and/or be addressed as "His Holiness",

> what to speak of being allowed to take disciples. I just don't get

> it.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

Agreed. I cannot understand at all how the GBC has given its approval

that Dhanurdara Swami can continue to initiate outside the U.S. after it

has been proven that he did so much abuse to little children in our

movement.

 

It reminds me of the US businessmen. When citizens became upset about

the destructive effects of DDT in the US, those businessmen collaborated

with the US government and exported the DDT to the unsuspecting farmers

in Third World countries. Now that Dhanurdara Swami is "damaged goods"

in the US, we are exporting his brand of Krsna consciousness to the

Mideast.

 

I wonder what the karmic reaction will be for us?

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

On 25 Jan 2000, Janesvara das wrote:

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > If one covets his impure desires, he can't chant for millions of lifetimes

with nominal effect

>

>

> Interesting. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have scriptural

evidence of this. And if so, if it is not the chanting of the holy names, how

does one in the material world, who has ONLY impure desires, stop the

covetousness? What gives the purification? When does it begin?

>

> What is the meaning of ceto darpanam marjanam?

>

> I tend to disagree with your perspective, but I would be interested in

> discussing it further and reviewing your sastric evidence. I believe there

is another element to the formula.

 

 

 

I was attempting to paraphrase the saying that one can't chant for millions of

lifetimes with little effect if he maintains an offensive mentality, which

must be a paraphrase of something else. Exact quotations ain't my strong

point.

 

Still, even though so many impurities can be mixed in, the chanting still has

an auspicious effect. For instance, I would argue that so many of our fallen

comrades, some embarrassingly fallen, still came out the winner because of

their attachment to the chanting. Still, one cannot deny that there will be

some reaction to all our activities. The eternal benefit will remain, in spite

of the temporary reactions.

 

Okay, lets take Kamsa, or even Hiranyakasipu, as an example of an extreme

case. Still, even though they had an adverse relationship with the devotees,

they made advancement do to their obsessive, though negative attachment.

Obviously, they also had to deal with the downside of unfavorable devotional

service.

 

Anyway, that's the best I can do in the quote department, but I could spend

some time trying to pull something more substantial up off of folio, like

that.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

On 25 Jan 2000, Janesvara das wrote:

 

 

>

> But Satadhanya took a vow to give up sex life. Why did he still do it? When

people are told to give up sexual desires, aka material desires, they should

just stop them immediately. Bas!

>

> Good luck.

 

 

All I can say is thank God I never got myself in any kind of mess as these

devotees did, but still, taking a vow of celebacy, either as a brahmancari or

otherwise, does not mean it is okay to molest kids. Sure, we were all young

and inexperienced in such things, both personally and institutionally, but to

what degree does that excuse individual responsibility?

[Guest guest]

Praghosa Prabhu wrote:

 

> The household ashrama requires the artificial mentality of "purusa" in

> order for us to find it attractive - at least in the beginning.

 

How do you explain than that the most associates of Lord Caitanya were

householders? Do you think that all of them were in maya?

 

Is it that just by accepting danda one automatically becomes Krishna

conscious?

 

How about household ashrama based on love without the mentality of purusa?

How about that in the Vaikuntha planets and Krishnaloka everybody usually

has a companion? Are they all in maya? How about that in the spiritual world

there are no sannyasis but there are always couples?

 

My dear son Praghosh, I am interested in a philosophical discussion.

I am not interested to hear this person did this or that. I didn't write my

previous comment in order to suport or to push down anybody. I just

presented what Harikesa is speaking which is not what you wrote that he is

speaking.

 

What I am reacting on here is the mentality that houshold ashrama means

being in maya and sannyasa ashrama or brahmacari ashrama means being in

Krishna consciousness. The truth is that any of this ashramas are ment

for spiritual advancement and how much one is in material consciousness or

Krishna consciousness depends very much how one is aplying one of those

ashramas. One can be in sannyas ashrama and be very much in maya and one can

be a householder and be very much Krishna conscious. The kind of

consciousness one is in depends completely on a quality of activity.

That means that the same activity can be done both in material consciousness

or spiritual consciousness. Different ashramas have different occupational

duties, but that doesn't mean that one ashrama automatically guarantees that

participant is more Krishna conscious. And that we have seen practically in

ISKCON by the number of fallen sannyasis.

 

To preach that sannyas ashrama is automatically better is a kind of a

caste system were people are classified according to initiation and not

according to the quality of their action. This caste system is quite

prevelent in ISKCON. The position of individual is decided according to the

first, second or sannyas initiation or according to which guru one got

initiation from.

 

Besides that, to preach that sannyas ashrama is the best solution for

everybody isn't right. Because only brahmanas are supposed to accept

sannyas, and usually it is only a smaler part of male brahmana population

that will accept sannyas. The rest of the population would be anyway

grihasthas. Grihastha ashrama is good as any other ashrama and one can

develop Krishna consciousness from any ashrama.

 

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Mother Sraddha,

As I said earlier good luck in all your endeavors in Krsna Consciousness. I

see no need to engage further in this discussion with you.

We are on very different wavelengths here. Hare Krsna. You are constantly

changing the subject of conversation and so there really is no point.

Your views on the lawsuit alone show how fooled you all are about this

individual. What can I say. Your entire presentation is just sentimental

hogwash. The ironic thing is that so many say "We have suffered so much or

go lightly on them they have suffered so much" but all this discussion has

shown me that many of you are nothing more than sentimentalists. I cannot

have compassion for that. I speak directly with you and you call it pride or

arrogance. Someone cheats you and you are quick to defend him as

"misunderstood" and so very sincere. Are there no real men over there at

all? Does no one hear the simple truth I am discussing with you. Thank you

for the enlightening exchange. I will be more prudent next time before

responding to anyones pretension of interest or inquiry.

Good luck and Hare Krsna

Sincerely Praghosa Das

 

COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) <Sraddha.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Tuesday, January 25, 2000 6:52 PM

Re: Speaking from experience

 

 

>[Text 2960255 from COM]

>

> Praghosa Prabhu wrote:

>

>> The household ashrama requires the artificial mentality of "purusa" in

>> order for us to find it attractive - at least in the beginning.

>

> How do you explain than that the most associates of Lord Caitanya were

>householders? Do you think that all of them were in maya?

>

> Is it that just by accepting danda one automatically becomes Krishna

>conscious?

>

> How about household ashrama based on love without the mentality of

purusa?

>How about that in the Vaikuntha planets and Krishnaloka everybody usually

>has a companion? Are they all in maya? How about that in the spiritual

world

>there are no sannyasis but there are always couples?

>

> My dear son Praghosh, I am interested in a philosophical discussion.

>I am not interested to hear this person did this or that. I didn't write my

>previous comment in order to suport or to push down anybody. I just

>presented what Harikesa is speaking which is not what you wrote that he is

>speaking.

>

> What I am reacting on here is the mentality that houshold ashrama means

>being in maya and sannyasa ashrama or brahmacari ashrama means being in

>Krishna consciousness. The truth is that any of this ashramas are ment

>for spiritual advancement and how much one is in material consciousness or

>Krishna consciousness depends very much how one is aplying one of those

>ashramas. One can be in sannyas ashrama and be very much in maya and one

can

>be a householder and be very much Krishna conscious. The kind of

>consciousness one is in depends completely on a quality of activity.

>That means that the same activity can be done both in material

consciousness

>or spiritual consciousness. Different ashramas have different occupational

>duties, but that doesn't mean that one ashrama automatically guarantees

that

>participant is more Krishna conscious. And that we have seen practically in

>ISKCON by the number of fallen sannyasis.

>

> To preach that sannyas ashrama is automatically better is a kind of a

>caste system were people are classified according to initiation and not

>according to the quality of their action. This caste system is quite

>prevelent in ISKCON. The position of individual is decided according to the

>first, second or sannyas initiation or according to which guru one got

>initiation from.

>

> Besides that, to preach that sannyas ashrama is the best solution for

>everybody isn't right. Because only brahmanas are supposed to accept

>sannyas, and usually it is only a smaler part of male brahmana population

>that will accept sannyas. The rest of the population would be anyway

>grihasthas. Grihastha ashrama is good as any other ashrama and one can

>develop Krishna consciousness from any ashrama.

>

> Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

> On 25 Jan 2000, Janesvara das wrote:

> >

> > But Satadhanya took a vow to give up sex life. Why did he still do it?

> > When

> people are told to give up sexual desires, aka material desires, they

> should just stop them immediately. Bas!

> >

> > Good luck.

>

>

> All I can say is thank God I never got myself in any kind of mess as these

> devotees did,

 

 

I agree. But did you ever wonder why? I know I have wondered about this kind

of thing many times. I don't know this guy Satadhanya, but he might very

well be much more "intelligent" than me and have better sadhana and

opulences. Whatever. I have done my share of nonsense and still do, but I

never came close to something like so many of these child abuser people have

done. Why? Karma? Perhaps. (Personally I don't think karma makes one sin. It

makes us suffer or enjoy, but not commit sin. I am not certain of this

philosophical point but would love to hear some sastra on it.) To me, and it

is not some high philosophical reasoning, but its simply, what would I think

of myself and what would my parents and family think of me. I would be

terrified of that prospect. I am not fully at the stage of saying, "what

would Krsna think of me", personally, though that has definitely become a

stronger incentive in the last many years because what little spiritual

practices I do, I do them on a purely voluntary basis, all alone in my

little personal temple room in my house. I don't have to do them to get

lunch prasadam or stay in the temple or make other devotees think of me as

senior or advanced or anything. Nobody else in the wolrd even know what I am

doing except Krsna, the demigods, mahajanas, Prabhupada, etc. They make me

feel "right". I hope its dharma finally grabbing me. If Sri Arjuna or

Prabhupada were to visit me I would feel comfortable honoring him and having

him hear my prayers and stuff. Thats important to me so I keep it at a

certain personal standard.

 

But why do some people do these "other" things? Krsna says its lust alone,

Arjuna. Thats easy to say but it is really serious stuff. As much as I play

with the fire of lust these types of things really make me fearful of this

thing we so casually call lust. I am continually amazed at how sometimes

right in the middle of my morning meditation (japa) when I can be thinking

great happy thoughts of my previous nights reading of the Battle of

Kuruksetra, A completely errant lust-based thought will come to mind and

spoil the whole mentality. Where did it come from? Seeds from the past I

suppose. I usually just chant Krsna, Krsna, Krsna and hope it goes away. At

least until I am done with my program!

 

 

 

> but still, taking a vow of celebacy, either as a brahmancari

> or otherwise, does not mean it is okay to molest kids.

 

 

Never will such be okay. Such people have to be punished so they can "get

square" with the house. Retribution is as good for the criminal as it is for

the citizens for whom it is meant to protect.

 

 

> Sure, we were all

> young and inexperienced in such things, both personally and

> institutionally, but to what degree does that excuse individual

> responsibility?

 

Some individuals, I think, would find it much easier to prevail over these

lusts and "pushings" if they didn't have to depend so much upon "individual

responsibility". If a larger group provided a culture or human civilization

which could foresee the tendencies of the different natures acting upon

human beings and create outlets for such things in a managed manner, such

things could be diminished.

 

Varnasrama-dharma.

[Guest guest]

On 26 Jan 2000, Janesvara das wrote:

 

 

>

> But why do some people do these "other" things? Krsna says its lust alone,

Arjuna. Thats easy to say but it is really serious stuff.

>

 

 

I don't know -- sometimes you look at yourself and you can begin to realize

how deep we really are in the doo-doo, so to speak. I am not just talking

straight forward things either. Sometimes we have all kinds of mischievous

little sub-plots and things going on trying to get an angle on Krsna.

 

As far as these Prabhus go, who is to say for sure, if at least in detail. It

is really something for them, and each of us in our own lives, to sort out

with Krsna, etc. We can also try to understand why we have to deal with these

things in our own lives, if only indirectly.

 

 

 

 

> A completely errant lust-based thought will come to mind and

> spoil the whole mentality. Where did it come from? Seeds from the past I

suppose. I usually just chant Krsna, Krsna, Krsna and hope it goes away. At

least until I am done with my program!

>

 

 

 

Yeah, there's all kinds of buried stuff with all kinds of momentum to deal

with. As we chant, we hope to gradually move along further away from this

stuff, but then sometimes it bubbles up again, like in the ghee analogy. I

guess we just have got to deal with it as progressively as possible, given the

tools and intellegence that Krsna has afforded us.

 

 

>

> Some individuals, I think, would find it much easier to prevail over these

lusts and "pushings" if they didn't have to depend so much upon "individual

responsibility". If a larger group provided a culture or human civilization

which could foresee the tendencies of the different natures acting upon human

beings and create outlets for such things in a managed manner, such things

could be diminished.

>

> Varnasrama-dharma.

 

 

I would agree that as a community or society, we want to engage and manage our

energies as productively as possible, which is the intended purpose of VAD.

Still, the bottom line is that as human beings, we are each entirely

responsible for our own actions. At least in VAD, the brahmanas, ksatriyas and

vaisayas are expected to be intelligent and responsible enough to be held

accountable. Sometimes other segments of society are considered more

'innocent', as a child might be. A child is still punished, but they are not

held accountable as if they were an adult. Ultimately, a person's character is

judged by their actual character.

 

Anyway, these particular individuals voluntarily took on the roles of

brahmanas and sanyassis. Though possibly niave about the implications, it

would appear to me they still need to be held accountable. Anyone can

appreciate that no matter how much innappropriate peer pressure they may be

feeling with regards to maintaining a level of austerity beyond their

practical realization, that child molestation is inexcussable. Children are

relatively innocent and require protection. To be exploited by a so called

protector is difficult to forgive lightly. It is just an unfortunately

situation for all parties involved.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

> I would agree that as a community or society, we want to engage and manage

> our energies as productively as possible, which is the intended purpose of

> VAD.

 

 

> Still, the bottom line is that as human beings, we are each entirely

> responsible for our own actions. At least in VAD, the brahmanas, ksatriyas

> and vaisayas are expected to be intelligent and responsible enough to be

> held accountable.

 

 

No question. But, in a group environment of everybody helping others when

they are down or weak for some reason we can BUILD good strong people. It

will take some time and therefore some things will fall through the cracks.

But, like a small twig is easily broken by itself, a bunch of twigs becomes

strong.

 

 

> Sometimes other segments of society are considered more

> 'innocent', as a child might be. A child is still punished, but they are

> not held accountable as if they were an adult. Ultimately, a person's

> character is judged by their actual character.

 

We need a character builder place. Varnasrama college.

[Guest guest]

> Hare Krsna Mother Sraddha,

> As I said earlier good luck in all your endeavors in Krsna Consciousness.

> I see no need to engage further in this discussion with you.

> We are on very different wavelengths here. Hare Krsna. You are constantly

> changing the subject of conversation and so there really is no point. Your

> views on the lawsuit alone show how fooled you all are about this

> individual. What can I say. Your entire presentation is just sentimental

> hogwash.

 

Pamho AgtSP!

Dear Pragosha Prabhu, if you want to make a fool out of yourself nobody can

stopp you, but before you can convince me or any one else about your points

get your information straight first, and for that you can consult also HG

Jayadvaita Swami. By the way what are you actually talking about here, I

mean what philosophical point are you trying to make?

 

Or are you just interested in some prajalpa?

 

> The ironic thing is that so many say "We have suffered so much or

> go lightly on them they have suffered so much" but all this discussion has

> shown me that many of you are nothing more than sentimentalists.

 

Well, look at yourself first, before you may judje others so quickly.

Harikesha prabhu is not his body and material mind as you are not your body

and material mind. And that truth remains valid even if he may have changed

his position or ashram in the society of devotees.

I choose to take advice and spiritual knowledge from him as a spirit soul

and not from him as material body in wathever position he might have been at

that time, or whatever he might be at present.

I am interested in spiritual knowledge, and as gold is valuable in whatever

place one might find it, the same remains valid for spiritual knowledge and

guidance. If you call this sentimental than you mignt have a problem.

I am not specifically interested in a cultish understanding of a guru, like

it might be so prominent in some places nowadays. And look at its results.

 

> I cannot have compassion for that.

> I speak directly with you and you call it pride

> or arrogance. Someone cheats you and you are quick to defend him as

> "misunderstood" and so very sincere.

 

I pity you.

 

> Are there no real men over there at

> all? Does no one hear the simple truth I am discussing with you. Thank you

> for the enlightening exchange. I will be more prudent next time before

> responding to anyones pretension of interest or inquiry.

> Good luck and Hare Krsna

> Sincerely Praghosa Das

 

Hare Krsna and Good luck to you

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Harsi prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All Gloriese to His Divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada.

 

Just what is the subject of conversation at the present point in time? Are

you writing to satisfy Lord Krsna and our acharyas? What are you trying to

convey. Where do you live and to what extent has the grhasta communtiy

developed there? Just why are you so defensive as regards Hari kesa prabhu?

Knowing him a little I would venture a guess that he is probably far less

defensive about his actions and ideas than you are. I am certain that right

now he is very busy trying to get his life back in order. That is certainly

good. Anyone can understand his need to do that. But just what is it you are

so injured about as far as these discussions? (No need to respond to this or

my subsequent questions. They are rhetorical!)

 

Are you trying to say that Hari Kesa prabhu had nothing to do with the

illegal transfer of Srila Prabhupada's Bhaktivedanta Book Trust Copyrights

into a California Non-Profit Corporation and the need to defend the

"indefensible" in court with the gross mismanagement of nearly $500,000.00

of Srila Prabhupada's Money? You mention Jayadwaita Swami - but are you

aware that HH Jayadwaita resigned from his position in the BBTI due to the

role that he played in this unfortunate and costly lawsuit? Jayadwaita Swami

himself admitted in a letter to two of the principals in the fiasco, that

the case should never have been filed in the first place and that the BBTI

was very wrong in pursuing it to begin with and do to his complicity in the

travesty,he was stepping down! I read his letter - and I can at least credit

him with the integrity needed to admit such a mistake. Why are you

defending the indefensible?

 

As far as your claiming that he left without taking any severence - Wow!

Knowing the circumstances that hundreds of devotees have had to face on

account of disagreeing with Harikesa prabhu and the rest of the leaders who

drew a line in the sand starting in 1980 and beyond, I could probably write

a book. Women who collected a couple of hundred thousand dollars before

being literally dropped off at the train station with NOTHING but a young

child! "Thanks but no thanks MATA!!- Don't call us - we'll call you!" Men

who gave their blood sweat and tears to develop Krsna Consciousness in their

respective areas of the world and then when they disagreed with HG Harikesa

prabhu or Bhagavan prabhu or the others, they were shown the door WITHOUT A

FRIGGING RED CENT IN THEIR POCKET! Many after serving for ten years or more!

So maybe he didn't leave with millions - whatever he left with it is 100%

more than most of the devotees that he and all the others drove out when

they sadly realized that they could no longer support the costly "Srila

Vishnupada of Srila Gurudeva" etc. etc. charade!!

 

Are you actually saying that his renouncing of sannyasa has somehow or

other been a positive step up for all those who worshipped him daily as

guru? Is that exactly how all his former disciples who reverendly referred

to him as "Srila Vishnupada" also view his actions? I realize that this is a

sensitive matter and I am not trying to add insult to injury, but if you

recall, this entire dialogue between us(if this can be called a dialogue)

began when I merely mentioned the GBC's suspension of Harikesa prabhu as

appropriate to the circumstances there in Europe and an instructive

precedent that could serve as a good example of how to handle the VAST

conference affair. Upon reading that practical simple observation, you have

launched into non-stop jousting with me and I am not certain just what you

are trying to accomplish - save of course your merciful pity!

 

Are you saying that although he was handpicked by His Divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada to initiate newcomers as one of the first 11 "Officiating

Acharyas" and he took that as a green light to call himself "VISHNUPADA"

and presented himself instead as the appointed or designated "acharya" for

that zone - as good as Hari - sum total of the demigods etc etc etc, now

that he has "honestly" admitted his actual status as an "aspiring candidate"

for pure devotional service like so many of Srila Prabhupada's sincere but

perhaps struggling disciples, he is now somehow to be seen as particularly

qualified to "instruct" the rest of the world in the proper administration

of Varnashrama Dharma on account of his finally being properly situated in

his correct ashrama?

 

The position of the pure Vaisnava Acharya is to preach pure Devotional

Service - the samkirtan yajna of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu - and the world

can participate by giving of their words, wealth, intelligence or if

possible whole life! In a nutshell that is DaiviVarnashrama. So I am certain

that Harikesa prabhu can make valuable contributions to this great

collaborative effort that is Mahaprabhus Daivi Varnasharama! But Varnashrama

Dharma is not suddha-bhakti and it is apparent that HG Harikesa Prabhu has

admitted the need to give up the charade of "Srila Vishnupada" and proceed

like the vast majority of his godbrothers and godsisters. That can only be a

wonderfully positive step in the long run for him and for you also! If you

remember - my having to even discuss this most obvious reality is due to

your taking offense at my original points that were only peripherally

connected to HG Harikesa prabhu.

 

Also, I am not certain how long you a have been connected to Krsna

Consciousness but there are thousands of devotees in this movement who have

lived through and survived the pernicious dynamics of the "Personality Cult"

as it has worked it's way through Srila Prabhupada's movement. It would be

prudent of you, when writing on such a public forum as this, to acknowledge

that and avoid coming off as an ambassador for HG Harikesa prabhu and his

"Wise" formulas for correcting the "Cult" problem as well! That wreaks of an

almost unspeakable arrogance!

 

When you opened this subject I did not intend to enter this realm. I am

certain that HG Harikesa prabhu, facing himself in the mirror each day knows

exactly what a mess he has made of things and is trying to set things right

as best as he can. I am certain of that. So let us discontinue this exchange

for now prabhu. As you have said you are very comfortable working with HG

Harikesa prabhu. There is nothing wrong with that. I have no vested interest

in you and you have no vested interest in me. Your business is really

between you and Lord Krsna - as is mine. You and HG Harikesa prabhu and

anyone who shares your enthusiasm to work together, should just work hard to

create a perfect model of a happy, well adjusted, prosperous and sublimely

Krsna Conscious community and the rest of the world will welcome the

example. You know I am sure, this very simple maxim, "If you build a better

mousetrap - the world will beat a path to your door!" All Glories to Srila

Prabhupada! Hare Krsna!

 

Ever your loving brother and servant

Praghosa Das

 

COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) <Harsi.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Friday, January 28, 2000 3:10 PM

Re: Speaking from experience

 

 

>[Text 2968040 from COM]

>

>> Hare Krsna Mother Sraddha,

>> As I said earlier good luck in all your endeavors in Krsna Consciousness.

>> I see no need to engage further in this discussion with you.

>> We are on very different wavelengths here. Hare Krsna. You are constantly

>> changing the subject of conversation and so there really is no point.

Your

>> views on the lawsuit alone show how fooled you all are about this

>> individual. What can I say. Your entire presentation is just sentimental

>> hogwash.

>

>Pamho AgtSP!

>Dear Pragosha Prabhu, if you want to make a fool out of yourself nobody can

>stopp you, but before you can convince me or any one else about your points

>get your information straight first, and for that you can consult also HG

>Jayadvaita Swami. By the way what are you actually talking about here, I

>mean what philosophical point are you trying to make?

>

>Or are you just interested in some prajalpa?

>

>> The ironic thing is that so many say "We have suffered so much or

>> go lightly on them they have suffered so much" but all this discussion

has

>> shown me that many of you are nothing more than sentimentalists.

>

>Well, look at yourself first, before you may judje others so quickly.

>Harikesha prabhu is not his body and material mind as you are not your body

>and material mind. And that truth remains valid even if he may have changed

>his position or ashram in the society of devotees.

>I choose to take advice and spiritual knowledge from him as a spirit soul

>and not from him as material body in wathever position he might have been

at

>that time, or whatever he might be at present.

>I am interested in spiritual knowledge, and as gold is valuable in whatever

>place one might find it, the same remains valid for spiritual knowledge and

>guidance. If you call this sentimental than you mignt have a problem.

>I am not specifically interested in a cultish understanding of a guru, like

>it might be so prominent in some places nowadays. And look at its results.

>

>> I cannot have compassion for that.

>> I speak directly with you and you call it pride

>> or arrogance. Someone cheats you and you are quick to defend him as

>> "misunderstood" and so very sincere.

>

>I pity you.

>

>> Are there no real men over there at

>> all? Does no one hear the simple truth I am discussing with you. Thank

you

>> for the enlightening exchange. I will be more prudent next time before

>> responding to anyones pretension of interest or inquiry.

>> Good luck and Hare Krsna

>> Sincerely Praghosa Das

>

>Hare Krsna and Good luck to you

>Harsi das

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Also, I am not certain how long you a have been connected to Krsna

> Consciousness but there are thousands of devotees in this movement who

> have lived through and survived the pernicious dynamics of the

> "Personality Cult" as it has worked it's way through Srila Prabhupada's

> movement. It would be prudent of you, when writing on such a public forum

> as this, to acknowledge that and avoid coming off as an ambassador for HG

> Harikesa prabhu and his "Wise" formulas for correcting the "Cult" problem

> as well! That wreaks of an almost unspeakable arrogance!

 

Or an endeaver to become part of the solution instead remaining a part of

the problem.

[Guest guest]

<<If possible I would

like to be a source of help and service to all the devotees - godbrothers

and godsisters alike - Whether sannyasa or grahasta. I am certain that each

and everyone of the devotees involved in the discussions are as positively

motivated as I feel myself to be.>>

 

As per your story of your conversation with the sankirtan brahmacari in the New

York temple, I agree that providing an economic solution for family affairs is

essential. Could you enlighten us as to how you support your family?

[Guest guest]

>

> Are you trying to say that Hari Kesa prabhu had nothing to do with the

> illegal transfer of Srila Prabhupada's Bhaktivedanta Book Trust Copyrights

> into a California Non-Profit Corporation and the need to defend the

> "indefensible" in court with the gross mismanagement of nearly $500,000.00

> of Srila Prabhupada's Money?

 

According to the press releases of the BBT themselves, he was not involved

with

that court case at all. Do you have some other source of information?

[Guest guest]

On 27 Jan 2000, Janesvara das wrote:

 

 

>

> What can you do to pretentious people? If they commit crimes, thats one

> thing, but simply being pretentious? Maybe try to establish the true

> standards of such positions without duplicity or mental wrangling and

> motivated interpretations of scriptural evidence which is written quite

> clearly for the fallen souls of the material world.

>

 

 

I agree this stuff is not good either, but it could be somewhat of a step up

from some of the past problems we've had to deal with -- so that could also be

a consideration.