Speaking from experience

[Guest guest]

The conditions for having good progeny in society are that the husband

should be disciplined in religious and regulative principles and the wife

should be faithful to the husband. In Bhagavad-gétä (7.11) it is said that

sexual intercourse according to religious principles is a representation of

Krsna consciousness. Before engaging in sexual intercourse, both the husband

and the wife must consider their mental condition, the particular time, the

husband's direction, and obedience to the demigods.

SB 3.14.38

[Guest guest]

Pragosha das wrote:

 

> So henceforth let us all confine ourselves to discussing these issues from

> the perspective of philosophy and fact. Let us refrain from unnecessary

> personal comments and psychological analysis. That will not help anything.

 

Good advice indeed, so do it yourself and the whole devotee world will

follow you...

 

> We are all, men and women both, Srila Prabhupada's aspiring angels. We are

> commisioned with nothing less than saving the Western world! So we do not

> have time for "Squabbling" over personal issues.

 

So how would you interpret the comment you made in your initial text

forwardet to this conferences by Trivikrama Maharaja, now that you have come

to this new conclusion.

 

You remember, you wrote:

 

>Now where have we seen this most recently? Well last year our godbrother

>Hari Kesa prabhu began preaching his conclusions about the teachings of

>Srila Prabhupada as regards to what constituted "licit" and "illicit" sex.

>It was correctly determined that he was way off the mark on that one and

>the GBC simply confirmed that fact for the general devotees and declared

>him most definitely unfit to represent His Divine Grace at that time and

>demanded his resignation! Bas! No fuss - no muss! End of story.

 

>So this nonsense can all be handled as easily and expeditiously as that

>little incident. If the devotees in question,both the women and the MEN

>WHO AT PRESENT ARE WEEPING IN A PUDDLE OF NOBLE TEARS for these women,are

>determined to in any way shape or form present the teachings of His Divine

>Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami as relative to their's or anyone's puny

>adjustments and interpretations,

 

>then they should be removed form any position

 

>that would ultimately give them any opportunity to control or influence the

>formal presentation of Srila Prabhupada's teachings, as

>representatives of His Divine Grace's ISKCON mission! Bas! No fuss - no

>muss

 

Still convinced that this would be the the right way in this conection?

 

> There is only one real

> issue and that is this: The Mortality rate in this material world is 100%

> So before we leave this body we must do our best to become fully

> surrendered to Lord Sri Krsna and His Dearmost Representative Srila

> Prabhupada. All of us. Every man and Every woman! Our process is simple.

> In the "Teachings of Queen Kunti" Srila Prabhupada states that ANYONE who

> is blessed with a tongue and two ears can by chanting the Holy Names

> become fully Krsna Conscious and Go back to Home - Back to Godhead! Last I

> looked these requisite items were shared by every man and woman ever

> created by the Lord. So let the Kirtan begin!

>

> HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE --HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA

> RAMA HARE HARE !!!!!!!!!!!

> All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

>Due to the fact that His Grace Srila Prabhu is an old acquaintence from New

York, I expressed my dissatisfaction with his insinuations in such a way as to

allow him to understand just how disturbed with his comments I actually was.

Since in the beginning of his article he actually claimed to "Love Praghosa

prabhu very much on account of his efforts to distribute Srila Prabhupada's

books" I naturally assumed that my reaction to his comments would affect him

very positively and he would, being an aspiring devotee, not wish to offend

someone he has just professed to love nor would he wish to offend someone so

dear to the one he professes to love!

 

>....

 

Praghosa Prabhu is entirely correct on all his points. There is nothing more

important to our continued progress in devotional service than maintaining

friendly and respectful dealings with other devotees and avoiding offenses at

their lotus feet. The particular issues aside, it is clear beyond any doubt

that I have sorely offended my respectable godbrother Praghosa Prabhu and

jeopardized my eternal relationship with him. Thus whatever I have written is

less than useless, certainly as far as he is concerned. Therefore, I simply

want to apologize for whatever cutting remarks I have insinuated or are

interpreted as such.

 

I do not know anything about love materially or spiritually, and my life is a

dry desert as far as loving exchanges go. I need to increase the quality and

quantity of my devotional relationships, not imperil them.

 

Please forgive me one and all.

 

I stand humbled and corrected,

 

Dasanudasa-abhilasi

(Aspiring to be a servant of the servant)

 

Srila dasa

 

PS: Praghosa, perhaps you should turn your anger next to Trivikrama Swami who

posted your text as a pretense to express his own (controversial) views. Did

he ask permission to post your letter all over the internet? Because when

these other person's views (such as yours) are inevitably questioned or

rebutted, he can then observe the fireworks but stay out of the fray which he

has induced while it ensues.

 

This is a clever technique which Trivikrama Maharaja employs. Like Narada, he

seems to be a something of a "contentious conniver"! (note: this is

affectionately expressed.) Despite my strong penchant for contentious issues,

I won't fall for Maharaja's stratagem again, as tempted as I may be, though.

I've learned my lesson. I'll let someone else with more control of their six

pushings (vaco vegam manasa krodha vegam...) be the guinea pig. I am too much

a "wild rat" myself to participate in this kind of "experiment" which requires

well-mannered and sober discussants. Hare Krsna.

[Guest guest]

Yes, we heard the great paundit Sri Galim quote this many times. As a matter

of fact, he was such a pukka brahmana he was, according to his own

estimation, able to discern amongst his students who had been correctly

concieved and who hadn't.

 

"Ameyatma.ACBSP" wrote:

 

> [Text 2932777 from COM]

>

> The conditions for having good progeny in society are that the husband

> should be disciplined in religious and regulative principles and the wife

> should be faithful to the husband. In Bhagavad-gétä (7.11) it is said that

> sexual intercourse according to religious principles is a representation of

> Krsna consciousness. Before engaging in sexual intercourse, both the husband

> and the wife must consider their mental condition, the particular time, the

> husband's direction, and obedience to the demigods.

> SB 3.14.38

[Guest guest]

At 22:44 -0800 1/17/2000, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New

Vrindavan - USA) wrote:

>[Text 2938843 from COM]

>

>Yes, we heard the great paundit Sri Galim quote this many times. As a matter

>of fact, he was such a pukka brahmana he was, according to his own

>estimation, able to discern amongst his students who had been correctly

>concieved and who hadn't.

 

" he was such a pukka brahmana he was, " - indeed. Maybe you can

inform some of the blissfully ignorant members of this conference,

exactly what went into the job description of this particular "pukka

brahmana". Ability to quote sastra is obviously not a guarantee that

a person is a particularly moral being.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Srila Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada!

 

Thank you very much for responding immediately to my second letter. You

obviously captured the essence of my dissatisfaction just as I had assumed

you would. So I have already completely forgiven you for any unintentional

slight you might have commited to my good wife or myself.

 

As for your point about His Holiness Trivikrama Swami's posting your

comments with the subversive intent of stirring up some controversy or

conflict, I don't see his efforts like that. The conflict is already there.

It is between Maya and all of us. She is of course insurmountable without

Lord Krsna's intervention. Without the direct help of the Lord and His

Devotees - She always wins and we always lose! It's that simple! I think

Maharaja is simply trying to assist everyone in understanding exactly what

Srila Prabhupada delivered as the "Solution" for this particular aspect of

our dilemna. Remember he is a sannyasi and as Srila Prabhupada pointed out

in the Bhagavatam, he passed on the curse of Narada to his younger sannyasi

disciples to continuously travel and preach on behalf of His Divine Grace.

So his traveling on the information highway is just as necessary and

authorised as any other road! As long as we restrict ouselves to discussing

things like ladies and gentlemen, as Srila Prabhupada would want, then only

good can result. But I will be very careful myself and make sure that I

don't take things out of context or as being intentionally inflammatory or

any such thing. Would that be better?

 

You know I will tell you something interesting. About two years ago, while I

was in New York for the Christmas Marathon with Panca Gauda prabhu, I had

the pleasure of meeting a nice brahmacari named Nrsimha Kavaca Das. He was

initiated by HH Indradyumna Swami and had been working with both HH Indra

Swami and HH Trivikrama Swami in Poland. In fact he asked me for a donation

to help set up their efforts to counter the propaganda of the Anti-Cult

movement that was so vehemently attacking Lord Chaitanya's devotees in

Poland. I gave some small donation for his efforts and expressed my

willingness to give more support if I was able. Nrsimha Kavaca prabhu was

showing us many wonderful photos of all the Festivals that the devotees put

on during the summer preaching tour. The photos highlighted all the usual

colorful aspects of a Mahaprabhu Festival. One thing stood out from the

photos - there were literally hundreds of beautiful young women in colorful

saris with gopi dots and jewelry and each one was more beautiful than the

next. I asked him if there were that many young beautiful girls joining

Mahaprabhus Movement in Poland and he answered "Yes - indeed there were "!

So naturally women are attracted to Mahaprabhus camp. The usual preaching is

when asked about our views on marriage and family etc. etc. etc is always,

"Oh yes Krsna Consciousness allows for marriage and family and all of that".

So with that liberal preaching being the initial response to her inquiry,

what beautiful woman, if she is a little pious, would not wish to join the

party, with the idea that she can excersise her natural female proclivity

for fun and family and still go back to Godhead in the process? I asked him

if so many young women joining had posed any problems and he said "Well in

reality it has". Initially they are very attracted to the color and festive

nature of Krsna Consciousness as it is being wonderfully introduced by the

two Maharaja's, but down the stretch, the vast majority, (he said about 95%)

all eventually come to the Maharajas and request that they please try to

arrange a marriage for them if there is any possibilty. This of course is

easier said than done!

 

That same year in New York, I was stopped in the hall of the New York Temple

by one very nice brahmacari. He asked me an incredibly enlightening

question! He asked, "Praghosa prabhu, could you please give me a donation of

ten dollars?" I was a little curious so I said,"Well I have no problem with

that prabhu but what do you need that for and why are you asking me for it

when you are a good samkirtan devotee and you could approach your party

leader for such things? He replied, "Well I need it to buy some NORMAL MENS

UNDERWEAR!" I almost doubled over with laughter! I said,"Say what? Come

again!" He was obviously very embarrassed and then proceeded to tell me that

the last trip home( which by the way was over a year) his Mother almost "had

a cow" when she saw his Kaupins hanging in the bathroom to dry. She asked

what they were and when he said they were his underwear - Well you can

imagine the rest!

So wanting to avoid this embarassment again he wanted to get some regular

underwear before going home to visit.(Stay with me here there is a point to

this!) At first I just couldn't believe that he would ask another man for

this! But I toook compassion upon him and asked him, "Prabhu, I would be

perfectly happy to give you the money" -( I think I gave him a twenty) -

"but can I ask you a couple of questions?" How much laksmi do you raise each

week through book distribution for the temple? "Around $700.00" was his

reply. "So you raise approximately $2800.00 dollars each month for Krsna and

your samkirtan leader can't let you use $10.00 to buy some frigging

underwear? ( This guy is obviously a very sincere brahmacari and it's men

like this that caused me to go absolutely ballistic when I came to learn

about the $500,000.00 that some of the GBC authorised the bogus BBTI to

spend suing Srila Prabhupada in a California Court last year-but that's

another story!) So I said to this devotee, "Prabhu let me ask you a

question. How long have you been a brahmacari?Six years" was his reply.

"So you have been doing samkirtan for six years. I know you have probably

not been approached on this issue, but do you secretly hope to find a

beautiful girl someday and marry and raise a family in Krsna Consciousness?"

He blushed, looked around to make sure no men were privy to our conversation

and then said,"Well actually yeah - I do!" I smiled and asked him jokingly,

"Well imagine what kind of impression you just gave me as a father with two

daughters. You think I would have any confidence that you could take care of

one them? Do you have any idea what it actually costs to raise a family? And

how would you raise that money? He looked at me, smiled and with eyes

glazing over in complete bewilderment, answered, "I DO NOT HAVE THE FAINTEST

IDEA!!" Is anyone beginning to get my point yet.

 

Getting married after 5 or six years of brahamcari life, what to speak of 8

or 10, working exclusively for the Spiritual Master, is like being released

from prison. You know the scene from the movie. The steel doors open and out

comes the convict. The guards wave good-bye and good luck and Bada Bing -

Bada Bang - Bada Boom - the con sighs, picks up his little bag of useless

stuff he's been guarding like it was gold, and steps out into the world!

Talk about a shock to the system. I went through it and so did hundreds of

my wonderful godbrothers. It hasn't been pretty, although it has been at

times wonderfully hysterical and if you asked me, would I change any of my

history I would tell you, "Absolutely NATHA!" Based upon everything we have

learned we can help the next generation of men and women and perhaps make it

easier for them to make the transition. We can also help those men and women

who choose to avoid the "transition" by pointing out the positive things

that can help them do that also! But all these discussions about men and

women and there interaction and how to make that work in Srila Prabhupada's

service etc. etc etc are absolutely essential and vital to the spiritual

health of Srila Prabhupada's mission.

 

So I think this is the real underlying intent of our wondrful godbrother HH

Trivikrama Swami's joining the discussions and posting whatever it is he

posts. He is seeking to care for all the wonderful young ladies who have

taken shelter of Srila Prabhupada in Poland and elsewhere and he like so

many other leaders has encountered difficulty in doing that and wishes to

protect the fledgling "creepers" of all the nice young men and women who so

enthusiastically embrace Lord Chaitanya's Samkirtan movement!

 

Based upon the two "realities" presented by the above mentioned stories, I

am sure you are all seeing the conundrum created by our sincere preaching.

All of us men and women both, naturally get swept up in the happiness of

Lord Chaitanya's Samkirtan movement. We want to remain fixed in it and

finding our proper place within the Daivi Varnashrama Culture of

Mahaprabhu's Movement takes paitence and love for eachother. Accomodating

the mothers' greatest assets - their beauty, intelligence, enthusiasm and

desire to mother and nurture, not just their own children but all of

society, is an integral part of Srila Prabhupada's mission. But as the above

mentioned story about the wonderful brahmacari in New York illustrates,

without planning, and direction, Srila Prabhupada's men are oft-times

ill-equipped to shoulder the responsibilities involved in facilitating the

wonderful mothers who have recognized the importance of joining Lord

Chaitanya's Kirtan Party immediately from the Western Culture - what to

speak of all the beautiful angels who have directly taken their birth in the

families of Srila Prabhupada's dedicated servants. Lord Chaitanya's Movement

is a collaborative effort! Srila Prabhupada used to boast that, "He was not

paying his followers anything. OUR MEN WORK FOR HEART AND SOUL"! We don't

serve Krsna out of fear or force! Our service to Krsna endures when there is

love for Krsna and love and admiration of Sri Krsna's devotees! Isn't it?

Srila Prabhupada once said that the husband should "Love his wife so

sincerely that he would work strenuously to see that not a single difficulty

or problem falls upon a single hair of her head!" Well, as there are so many

wonderful women who have taken shelter of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, it is

incumbent upon us as leaders of his movement to facilitate their devotional

service and protect them from any problems if possible and it is imncumbent

upon them to be humble and submissive like Sri Vishnupriyah Devi and accept

whatever the Lord arranges for them. It is Kali yuga. Arranging a good

husband for every woman is simply not going to be possible (Prabhupada said

the "the brahmacaris should not be canvassed) and so the mothers must be

humble and patient and completely depenent upon Lord Chaitanya. If marriage

is not possible for them, then our movement should be so arranged that they

will feel as inspired as possible to take shelter of Lord Chaitanya and

serve His mission in some capacity. And many of them are passed the ideal

age for marriage anyway so their prospects and Western mentality may be an

impediment! And as the above mentioned incident with the fellow in New York

illustrates - our men may be reluctant to marry if they are happily engaged

in direct preaching or if they just don't have any vested interest in any

one particular girl or the visible means to provide for her. So in one sense

devotees are the best candidates for good husbands and in another way we are

the worst! It is kind funny when you think about it. It's like the irony of

the Bhagavatama 5th Canto - no one should become a father, husband, demigod

or guru unless he can liberate his dependents. That means no one BUT a

devotee should marry and have children! But then Lord Chaitanya's Movement

is "Vairyagya Vidya" and He has prayed, Na Dhanam Na Janam and definitely Na

Sundarim! Fortunately we have our wonderful Srila Prabhupada to "connect all

the dots" to this, at times, bewildering puzzle! Discussing amongst

ourselves, with genuine love and respect for men and women both, all his

beautiful instructions on these matters, will ultimately resolve all the

dilemnas. I think that is what the good maharaja and all the devotees are

doing.

 

I can remember my days back in New York in the mid-seventies. There was one

godsister there named Achutyapriyah Dasi. Some of you may rememember her.

She was heartbreakingly beautiful. If she looked you in the eye - your

tennis shoes would melt! I am not kidding. I must have gone through a dozen

pairs of tenny's in Sri Sri Radha Govindas Temple while secretly carrying a

torch for this lovely and saintly girl! And on top of that she was shy and

an incredible cook. In otherwords a perfect candidate for being some lucky

man's wife and some lucky childs mother. If I knew then all I know today

perhaps I would have been bolder and asked for that beautiful girl to be my

wife and companion in developing the Grhasta Ashrama for His Divine Grace!

But all of us, men and women both, were trying our best to remain dedicated

to our service to Srila Prabhupada and if possible forego our natural

inclination for individual family life in exchange for the opportunity to

engage in unfettered direct service in the company of the greater family of

pure devotees serving His Divine Grace. However, I can tell you honestly

that if this particular girl had even hinted in any way that she was

interested in yours truly, or her father had approached me on her behalf or

some temple leader had done so, then despite my being hairless, penniless,

and the proud possesor of only a book bag, two dhotis and two kurtas, some

samkirtan clothes and my Bhagavad Gita, this crazy brahmacari would have

changed ashramas faster than a New York City cop can wolf down a donut, and

I would have been faced with the dilemna of providing for a wife and

children that much sooner - and completely happy to do so in her company.

But at that time none of us knew what we know today and even if we did -

would we have done anything differently? Probably not. We were all praying

to Krsna to protect us from deviating even and inch so we could fulfill some

of Prabhupada's dreams and induce Krsna to let Prabhupada stay with us a

little longer! Later when I did indeed meet my wife I was determined not to

let her slip away - even if I was just as hairless and penniless as I was in

New York! Somehow Krsna has helped me to perform my service and it has been

a consistent source of joy and realization and impetus to take greater

shelter of the Lords Holy Name! I am sure all my godbrothers and godsisters

have their own wonderfully comical misadventures that they have endured as

they have found their feet in family life or sannyasa life while trying to

remain connected and engaged in Mahaprabhus service with the end result

always being greater attachment to Lord Chaitanya and His dear servant

Srila Prabbhupada! I would love to hear them.

 

So I think that all the devotees are enormously sincere in there efforts to

understand all these matters and move forward in a positive way for Srila

Prabhupada! We now have the benefit of so many devotees who have such a vast

amount of practical experience trying to push forward Lord Chaitanya's

Movement and deal with these oft times vexing problems. If possible I would

like to be a source of help and service to all the devotees - godbrothers

and godsisters alike - Whether sannyasa or grahasta. I am certain that each

and everyone of the devotees involved in the discussions are as positively

motivated as I feel myself to be. If our aim in all these discussions is to

help as many men and women "find their place" in Srila Prabhupada's service,

then I am certain that the end result of all our communication will be

pleasing to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and if He is pleased then our future

could not be brighter!!

 

Please feel free to contact me - any of you - and I will relish the

opportunity to discuss any of these matters at length with you and receive

the benefit of your experiences and realizations and share with any of you

whatever little thing Lord Krsna has shared with me.

 

Ever your loving brother and servant

Praghosa Das

 

WWW: Srila (Dasa) ACBSP (Berkeley CA - USA)

<cirvin (AT) uclink4 (DOT) berkeley.edu>

IWC (AT) bbt (DOT) se <IWC (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se <ISKCON.India (AT) bbt (DOT) se>;

Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>;

India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se

<Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net <btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net>;

India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net

<praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>

Sunday, January 16, 2000 8:02 PM

Speaking from experience

 

 

>>Due to the fact that His Grace Srila Prabhu is an old acquaintence from

New

>York, I expressed my dissatisfaction with his insinuations in such a way as

to

>allow him to understand just how disturbed with his comments I actually

was.

>Since in the beginning of his article he actually claimed to "Love Praghosa

>prabhu very much on account of his efforts to distribute Srila Prabhupada's

>books" I naturally assumed that my reaction to his comments would affect

him

>very positively and he would, being an aspiring devotee, not wish to

offend

>someone he has just professed to love nor would he wish to offend someone

so

>dear to the one he professes to love!

>

>>....

>

>Praghosa Prabhu is entirely correct on all his points. There is nothing

more

>important to our continued progress in devotional service than maintaining

>friendly and respectful dealings with other devotees and avoiding offenses

at

>their lotus feet. The particular issues aside, it is clear beyond any

doubt

>that I have sorely offended my respectable godbrother Praghosa Prabhu and

>jeopardized my eternal relationship with him. Thus whatever I have written

is

>less than useless, certainly as far as he is concerned. Therefore, I simply

>want to apologize for whatever cutting remarks I have insinuated or are

>interpreted as such.

>

>I do not know anything about love materially or spiritually, and my life is

a

>dry desert as far as loving exchanges go. I need to increase the quality

and

>quantity of my devotional relationships, not imperil them.

>

>Please forgive me one and all.

>

>I stand humbled and corrected,

>

>Dasanudasa-abhilasi

>(Aspiring to be a servant of the servant)

>

>Srila dasa

>

>PS: Praghosa, perhaps you should turn your anger next to Trivikrama Swami

who

>posted your text as a pretense to express his own (controversial) views.

Did

>he ask permission to post your letter all over the internet? Because when

>these other person's views (such as yours) are inevitably questioned or

>rebutted, he can then observe the fireworks but stay out of the fray which

he

>has induced while it ensues.

>

>This is a clever technique which Trivikrama Maharaja employs. Like Narada,

he

>seems to be a something of a "contentious conniver"! (note: this is

>affectionately expressed.) Despite my strong penchant for contentious

issues,

>I won't fall for Maharaja's stratagem again, as tempted as I may be,

though.

>I've learned my lesson. I'll let someone else with more control of their

six

>pushings (vaco vegam manasa krodha vegam...) be the guinea pig. I am too

much

>a "wild rat" myself to participate in this kind of "experiment" which

requires

>well-mannered and sober discussants. Hare Krsna.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Praghosa,

 

Thank you for your very sweet letter with its touching personal anecdotes.

You were THE BEST at book distribution because you

were able to put your heart into your preaching service in a joyous,

dynamic, and genuine way. Therefore people automatically

became interested in whatever literature you wanted to offer them. I can

see that same fire of enthusiasm is still burning in you

present words.

 

You are showing us all how we should be relating with each other. If we can

appreciate, to even a tiny degree, all that we share

in common as devotees of Krsna and followers of His Divine Grace -- and

how much we can benefit from one another's association -- there is no call

for any criticism or infighting. Our dire necessity, now more than ever, is

simply for an ever expanding *guhyati akhyati prcchati*: frank devotional

exchanges in an atmosphere of genuine regard, friendship and service.

 

Especially if we consider the rarity of devotion and the gargantuan task of

attempting to propagate Krsna consciousness in a grossly materialistic

society, internecine feuds among devotees are the greatest trick of Maya to

confuse, weaken and divide us.

 

Let us all take a great vow to never fall for this type of foolishness

again. Of all hells, that hell reserved for the criticizer of Vaisnavas is

the most condemned. Differences of opinion and varying perspectives will

allways be there, but misunderstandings between us should never give way to

hostility and criticism towards other Vaisnavas.

 

Thanks for reminding me that I have this uncouth and lowborn tendency to

disparage those whom I disagree with. The most important thing is the *mood*

(bhava) of our relationships and discussions, the *messages* are secondary.

We are, first and foremost, eternal servants of our one Master. Nothing else

should ever be allowed to obscure or minimize this eternal fact -- that we

share in a common identity and spiritual relationship with one another.

 

Thank you so much for your frank messages. You were always the one to ignite

the fire of preaching by your personal example.

 

In friendly appreciation,

 

Srila dasa

 

____

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

>

> >Yes, we heard the great paundit Sri Galim quote this many times. As a

matter

> >of fact, he was such a pukka brahmana he was, according to his own

> >estimation, able to discern amongst his students who had been correctly

> >concieved and who hadn't.

>

> " he was such a pukka brahmana he was, " - indeed. Maybe you can

> inform some of the blissfully ignorant members of this conference,

> exactly what went into the job description of this particular "pukka

> brahmana". Ability to quote sastra is obviously not a guarantee that

> a person is a particularly moral being.

>

> Ys,

> Madhusudani dasi

 

He was a walking VedaBase, gave erudite classes, ghost wrote books on

spiritual

topics for Kirtanananda, was headmaster of the gurukula, had nearly perfect

sadhana, and, oh yes, had sex with boys in his care.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Prabhu,

Please accept my obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada!

 

I am not certain as to what is precisely your objection to what I said in

regards to Hari Kesa prabhu' misrepresentation of our philosophy.

As I said "Let us confine ourselves to philosophy and fact"! The FACT is he

became severely confused and muddled as regards our parampara's simple and

clear teachings on what constitutes licit and illicit sex. The PHILOSOPHY

is unequivocal,as presented by Lord Krsna in both Bhagavad Gita and Srimad

Bhagavatam and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in Chaitanya Caritamrita, concerning

the "Truth" as it relates to sex life and it's ramifications - both good and

bad - upon our development of pure love for Sri Krsna. If you are confused

about that,I will be more than happy to clear that up for you.

 

So your question, "How would you interpret my own comment?". The comment is

not a personal attack prabhu. So it requires no interpretation based upon

some "newfound conclusion". You cannot find a single personal attack in my

comment. I am citing the correct manner in which the GBC handled the

misrepresentation of Srila Prabhupada by one very confused individual - HG

Harikesa prabhu. I cited the GBC's actions as being judicious and

appropriate. I cited the GBC action as being the suitable precedent from

which to draw the appropriate solution for dealingwith anyone who is

presenting a MISREPRESENTATION of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada from a

position of influence or authority within Srila Prabhupada's mission, as

being fact when it is only FANCY!!!

 

So as to your last question "Still convinced that this would be the right

way in this connection". The answer is very simple. Yes!

 

 

The devotees in question should certainly be given an opportunity to

apologise to the Vaisnavas if they have indeed made offensive comments about

His Divine Grace or his teachings. They should adequately demonstrate

remorse and a willingness to accept some "corrective measures" from the

assembled devotees. But devotees should not be given the facility to

"filter out" the beneficial association of senior devotees who collectively

represent Srila Prabhupada. If someone actually wants to do that, then

theirs is not avery high grade of Krsna Consciousness - be they man or

woman! What can be gained by such a superficial approach to Vaisnava sanga?

We are after pleasing Lord Sri Krsna and Srimati Radharani! We are after

pleasing His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada! Fools rush in where angels dare

to tread! Isn't it?

 

You address me in a very impersonal manner. You begin by stating "Praghosa

prabhu wrote" and then proceed to directly address me with one question

after another. Who has trained you in Krsna Consciousness. Where is your

proper etiquitte? Where is your Glorifiction of His Divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada? Where are your obeisances to your godbrother? You exhibit only

the urge to wrangle. That will not help you at all.

Even I may disagree with you or anyone - senior sannyasi or simple mother -

I will always cautiously first address them as "Prabhu" offer obeisances,

and then acknowledge our mutual relationship with our wonderful Srila

Prabhupada. That will then help me to hear them as a devotee and speak to

them as a devotee. If you try to do like that then you will be very pleasing

to Lord Krsna and his devotees and your good fortune is sure.

 

I thank you for your comments and as I said if you have some confusion about

sex life - good or bad - then I will be very happy to help you with that.

 

I notice that you have listed ourself as having een initiated by HG Harikesa

prabhu. You must know that I sympathise with the sadness that you must have

experienced on account of his difficulty. He is my godbrother and a great

servant of Srila Prabhupada. I consider him as a casualty of war. Hopefully

not fatally wounded. I pray that his condition will be corrected by Srila

Prabhupada and you will regain his inspiring association very soon. My

reference to him was not meant as a personal slight to him whatsoever. If

you took it to be so then I humbly apologise and ask that you reread my

comments and view them as I intended them.

 

I remain your servant and brother,

Praghosa Das

 

 

 

COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) <Harsi.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

WWW: Srila (Dasa) ACBSP (Berkeley CA - USA)

<cirvin (AT) uclink4 (DOT) berkeley.edu>; Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>;

COM: India (Continental Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM:

Varnasrama development <Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Cc: COM: Trivikrama Swami <Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net

<btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net>

Sunday, January 16, 2000 9:08 AM

Re: Speaking from experience

 

 

>[Text 2934663 from COM]

>

>Pragosha das wrote:

>

>> So henceforth let us all confine ourselves to discussing these issues

from

>> the perspective of philosophy and fact. Let us refrain from unnecessary

>> personal comments and psychological analysis. That will not help

anything.

>

>Good advice indeed, so do it yourself and the whole devotee world will

>follow you...

>

>> We are all, men and women both, Srila Prabhupada's aspiring angels. We

are

>> commisioned with nothing less than saving the Western world! So we do not

>> have time for "Squabbling" over personal issues.

>

>So how would you interpret the comment you made in your initial text

>forwardet to this conferences by Trivikrama Maharaja, now that you have

come

>to this new conclusion.

>

>You remember, you wrote:

>

>>Now where have we seen this most recently? Well last year our godbrother

>>Hari Kesa prabhu began preaching his conclusions about the teachings of

>>Srila Prabhupada as regards to what constituted "licit" and "illicit" sex.

>>It was correctly determined that he was way off the mark on that one and

>>the GBC simply confirmed that fact for the general devotees and declared

>>him most definitely unfit to represent His Divine Grace at that time and

>>demanded his resignation! Bas! No fuss - no muss! End of story.

>

>>So this nonsense can all be handled as easily and expeditiously as that

>>little incident. If the devotees in question,both the women and the MEN

>>WHO AT PRESENT ARE WEEPING IN A PUDDLE OF NOBLE TEARS for these women,are

>>determined to in any way shape or form present the teachings of His Divine

>>Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami as relative to their's or anyone's puny

>>adjustments and interpretations,

>

>>then they should be removed form any position

>

>>that would ultimately give them any opportunity to control or influence

the

>>formal presentation of Srila Prabhupada's teachings, as

>>representatives of His Divine Grace's ISKCON mission! Bas! No fuss - no

>>muss

>

>Still convinced that this would be the the right way in this conection?

>

>> There is only one real

>> issue and that is this: The Mortality rate in this material world is 100%

>> So before we leave this body we must do our best to become fully

>> surrendered to Lord Sri Krsna and His Dearmost Representative Srila

>> Prabhupada. All of us. Every man and Every woman! Our process is simple.

>> In the "Teachings of Queen Kunti" Srila Prabhupada states that ANYONE who

>> is blessed with a tongue and two ears can by chanting the Holy Names

>> become fully Krsna Conscious and Go back to Home - Back to Godhead! Last

I

>> looked these requisite items were shared by every man and woman ever

>> created by the Lord. So let the Kirtan begin!

>>

>> HARE KRSNA HARE KRSNA KRSNA KRSNA HARE HARE --HARE RAMA HARE RAMA RAMA

>> RAMA HARE HARE !!!!!!!!!!!

>> All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

At 22:32 -0800 1/22/2000, COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New

Vrindavan - USA) wrote:

>had nearly perfect

>sadhana, and, oh yes, had sex with boys in his care.

 

So much for his "nearly perfect" record.

 

On a slightly different note, I'm so glad he was finally thrown out.

The victims I have talked to still have very deep scars.Sometimes I

feel like there is no punishment severe enough for those who have

abused our youngest little Vaisnavas, who have led them to believe

that their treatment was somehow part of our religion, and who have

turned away from both Krsna and Prabhupada as a consequence. How can

we let any of them *ever* have any positions in ISKCON (I'm not

talking about Sri Galim)? While I agree that they, like everyone

else should be allowed to continue performing service to Guru and

Krsna, it's incomprehensible to me how *any* of the former abusers

can be allowed to give class, and/or be addressed as "His Holiness",

what to speak of being allowed to take disciples. I just don't get

it.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

On 22 Jan 2000, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

> >

> > " he was such a pukka brahmana he was, " - indeed. Maybe you can

> > inform some of the blissfully ignorant members of this conference,

> > exactly what went into the job description of this particular "pukka

> > brahmana". Ability to quote sastra is obviously not a guarantee that

> > a person is a particularly moral being.

> >

>

> He was a walking VedaBase, gave erudite classes, ghost wrote books on

> spiritual topics for Kirtanananda, was headmaster of the gurukula, had

nearly perfect sadhana, and, oh yes, had sex with boys in his care.

>

>

 

 

I guess there are austerities that can be performed for the 'enjoyment' of

practically any 'pleasure' in the material world. Even in devotional service,

there is service in the modes of ignorance, passion, and goodness. There is

also charity performed in the different modes, with apparently similar

external activities resulting in widely different results.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

> He was a walking VedaBase, gave erudite classes, ghost wrote books on

> spiritual topics for Kirtanananda, was headmaster of the gurukula, had

> nearly perfect sadhana, and, oh yes, had sex with boys in his care.

 

 

But I thought being a walking Vedabase, giving Bhagavatam classes, writing

spiritual books, service in the gurukula and having nearly perfect sadhana

would FOR SURE relieve this person of sexual desires. What happened?

 

Must be that "nearly" perfect sadhana. Ya see, if he had PERFECT sadhana

like everyone else in ISKCON he wouldn't have fallen down. Right?

 

 

Actually, simply for want of a tolerant community of broad-minded devotees

who would understand his material desires, he was denied practical outlet

for his sexual demands and therefore prostitution was encouraged WITHIN the

society at the expense of so many innocent people.

 

Immature. Foolish. Almost criminal assessory.

 

It's like the futility of prohibition which Srila Prabhupada talked about.

 

This devotee could have been a great asset to the community of devotees

giving so much service and intelligence. But because he had this one small

amount of conditioning he was condemned completely. There were obviously

devotees in cities like Dvaraka who were visiting prostitutes regularly and

at the same time performing some kind of valuable service to Krsnas city of

Vaisnavas.

 

Possibly, if Sri Galim knew that he would not have been condemned for these

desires and could go somewhere to satisfy these demands of the body and

return to his service he could have been a great asset. The service he was

performing in the varnasrama dharma institution along with his nice sadhana

would have gradually purified him and avoided any illicit connection with

children or non-consenting members of the community. Now, instead, he is

probably long gone. And now he will have to face retribution from the

authorities for his crimes.

 

But then if the parents knew he was visiting a prostitute, even if it was to

avoid illicit sex with gurukula boys, they would reject him because he was

not a pure devotee like I am sure all of them were. Too bad.

[Guest guest]

At 11:16 -0800 1/23/2000, COM: Janesvara (das) ACBSP (Syracuse - USA) wrote:

 

>Actually, simply for want of a tolerant community of broad-minded devotees

>who would understand his material desires, he was denied practical outlet

>for his sexual demands and therefore prostitution was encouraged WITHIN the

>society at the expense of so many innocent people.

>

>Immature. Foolish. Almost criminal assessory.

>

>It's like the futility of prohibition which Srila Prabhupada talked about.

 

Exactly. What can repression accomplish?

 

There is also the damaging attitude (pushed by Kirtanananda, among

others), that "sex is sex". Simply black and white, no shades of

grade. When are we going to acknowledge that there is a

*qualitative* difference between sex between two consenting adults

(even if it's recreational) and sex with minors, rape, sex with

animals etc.?

 

>But then if the parents knew he was visiting a prostitute, even if it was to

>avoid illicit sex with gurukula boys, they would reject him because he was

>not a pure devotee like I am sure all of them were. Too bad.

 

Although, many pedophiles are driven by abnormal desires (e.g. are

actually more "turned on" by sex with children than by sex with

adults), I agree that in many instances we do create our own

monsters. It's been way too common in ISKCON.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

Praghosa Prabhu wrote:

 

> I am not certain as to what is precisely your objection to what I said in

> regards to Hari Kesa prabhu' misrepresentation of our philosophy.

 

Could you please explain what is that misrepresentation and what is that

OUR philosophy? I mean shortly. I don't understand what are you talking

about.

 

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada!

Your guess is as good as mine. You must ask HG Harsi das that question as I

did. I am still in the dark as to what he is talking about.

That was my question to him also. I wish I could help you but unless he

explains his confusion I am at a loss to answer your question.

I apologise for the inconvenience.

Sincerely Praghosa Das

 

COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) <Sraddha.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Cc: COM: Bhakti Vikasa Swami <Bhakti.Vikasa.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Trivikrama

Swami <Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net <btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net>;

hansadutta (AT) pacific (DOT) net <hansadutta (AT) pacific (DOT) net>

Sunday, January 23, 2000 2:16 PM

Re: Speaking from experience

 

 

>[Text 2954009 from COM]

>

> Praghosa Prabhu wrote:

>

>> I am not certain as to what is precisely your objection to what I said in

>> regards to Hari Kesa prabhu' misrepresentation of our philosophy.

>

> Could you please explain what is that misrepresentation and what is that

>OUR philosophy? I mean shortly. I don't understand what are you talking

>about.

>

> Ys. Sraddha dd

>

[Guest guest]

>

> But I thought being a walking Vedabase, giving Bhagavatam classes, writing

spiritual books, service in the gurukula and having nearly perfect sadhana

would FOR SURE relieve this person of sexual desires. What happened?

>

> Must be that "nearly" perfect sadhana. Ya see, if he had PERFECT sadhana

like everyone else in ISKCON he wouldn't have fallen down. Right?

>

 

 

 

Alot depends on 'why' one performs the external rituals. After all, devotional

service is ultimately a matter of the heart.

 

I mean, what is the use of having a good practice all week long when every

game day you stink to high heaven.

 

 

 

>

> But then if the parents knew he was visiting a prostitute, even if it was to

avoid illicit sex with gurukula boys, they would reject him because he was not

a pure devotee like I am sure all of them were. Too bad.

>

 

 

However you want to cut it, Sri Galim got himself mixed up in a very confused

and socially destructive situation. Sure, he was in a weird situation, but he

did some increadibly weird things -- all on his own as an intelligent adult --

with regards to how he chose to deal with it.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

Haribol Praghose Prabhu,

 

> If you are confused about that, (sex) I will be more than happy to clear

> that up for you.

 

I am reading this but I am not exactly certain on its meaning. If there is

someone who is confused about that it is me. Two or three years after I

joined, I asked the question to Bhagavan: how are we to preach abstinence

(or sex for procreation only) when most of the initiated devotees have hard

time to keep the vow? Although he took sannyas later on, I wasn't convinced

by his logic.

 

Have you got some -scientific- realization which could "clear that up for"

me ? I will be more than happy to ask you about them. Remember, "you don't

teach an old monkey to make faces." I have read Prabhupada's books.

 

A very fallen devotee.

Akhilesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada.

the statement you have quoted was directed to a devotee in Europe who was

unhappy with my reference to Harikesa prabhu's ideas on sex life as having

been bogus. Yes all men struggle with Mr. Lust at one point or another in

married life. Srila Prabhupada has described that as a direct reflection of

our "Wanting to make progress in KC or not" in the 16th Chapter of Bhagavad

Gita. Essentially, Harikesa prabhu began preaching that since most devotees

struggle with the senses when they marry, that struggle is indication that

Srila Prabhupada's teachings on what constitutes illegal sex must be wrong.

It seems to go against everything that is "natural" between a man and a

woman.

 

His idea was basically: What man and woman truly marries with the idea that

they will live together in a torturous siuation which frustrates them and

generates nothing but regret? Like the brahmana who gives up his caste by

accepting food in the home of a Muslim and due to the poverty of the Muslim,

discovers that he cannot actually get enough food to satiate his hunger yet

now he has relinquished his caste, a devotee is told that he may marry but

can only relate intimately with his loving wife, if and when he wishes to

produce children! Vaisnava marriage transforms a man into a sort of "Pandu

Maharaja". You know from Mahabharata that Pandu Maharaja was married to the

beautiful queens Madri and Kunti yet he was cursed for some transgression

against a brahmana couple disguised as deer, that he could never enjoy sex

and the moment he did he would die! So Harikesa prabhu was rebelling against

this reality and preaching that in this area of practical application of

Krsna Consciousness Srila Prabhupada was unrealistic and in error and that

this idea had to be altered to in order to "accomodate" reality!

 

I will not go into depth at this time in addressing this issue. I do not

have the time today. However my comment "If you are confused etc." is

directed to a devotee who is either not aware of Harikesa prabhus ideas or

embraces them and wishes to wrangle with me over the issues raised by his

"Wise Guru" who he considers as indeed having been "on to something" and

ahead of his time. His questions to me did not clearly reveal his mind so I

am not certain of his true intent in asking me the questions he did. I did

meet one dixciple of Harikesa from Finland who was completely in the dark as

to the cornucopia of instructions and guidance given by Srila Prabhupada in

his books. I sat with him one morning in New York for about an hour and read

through some of the basic points Srila Prabhupada makes in Bhagavatam and he

was very surprised that Harikesa prabhu could have actually been taken

seriously by anyone entrusted to His care at all. The only explanation I

could give him was that the men must not actually read Srila Prabhupada!

 

As far as your own struggle with Mr. Lust - welcome to the club. All of us

go through that. Srila Prabhupada can easily help us. However - This demands

a conversation not an e-mail exchange. I do not have the time to write all

my realizations. What is your phone number? Please send me that and I will

call you and we can discuss at length. OK?

 

Ever your loving brother and servant

Praghosa Das

 

COM: Akhilesvara (das) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN)

<Akhilesvara.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Cc: COM: Bhakti Vikasa Swami <Bhakti.Vikasa.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Trivikrama

Swami <Trivikrama.Swami (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net <btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net>;

hansadutta (AT) pacific (DOT) net <hansadutta (AT) pacific (DOT) net>

Sunday, January 23, 2000 9:24 PM

Re: Speaking from experience

 

 

>[Text 2954641 from COM]

>

>Haribol Praghose Prabhu,

>

>> If you are confused about that, (sex) I will be more than happy to clear

>> that up for you.

>

>I am reading this but I am not exactly certain on its meaning. If there is

>someone who is confused about that it is me. Two or three years after I

>joined, I asked the question to Bhagavan: how are we to preach abstinence

>(or sex for procreation only) when most of the initiated devotees have hard

>time to keep the vow? Although he took sannyas later on, I wasn't convinced

>by his logic.

>

>Have you got some -scientific- realization which could "clear that up for"

>me ? I will be more than happy to ask you about them. Remember, "you don't

>teach an old monkey to make faces." I have read Prabhupada's books.

>

>A very fallen devotee.

>Akhilesvara dasa

>

[Guest guest]

> > Must be that "nearly" perfect sadhana. Ya see, if he had PERFECT sadhana

> like everyone else in ISKCON he wouldn't have fallen down. Right?

> >

>

>

>

> Alot depends on 'why' one performs the external rituals. After all,

> devotional service is ultimately a matter of the heart.

 

 

But doesn't everyone start with a dirty heart and isn't that the reason we

all begin this process in the first place? Is there some time schedule that

I missed because I was behind the door when they were passing them out, that

said the "wash" cycle only lasts "this" long and if you don't meet the

schedule you are OUT?

[Guest guest]

Praghosa prabhu wrote:

 

> His idea was basically: What man and woman truly marries with the idea

> that they will live together in a torturous siuation which frustrates them

> and generates nothing but regret? Like the brahmana who gives up his caste

> by accepting food in the home of a Muslim and due to the poverty of the

> Muslim, discovers that he cannot actually get enough food to satiate his

> hunger yet now he has relinquished his caste, a devotee is told that he

> may marry but can only relate intimately with his loving wife, if and when

> he wishes to produce children! Vaisnava marriage transforms a man into a

> sort of "Pandu Maharaja". You know from Mahabharata that Pandu Maharaja

> was married to the beautiful queens Madri and Kunti yet he was cursed for

> some transgression against a brahmana couple disguised as deer, that he

> could never enjoy sex and the moment he did he would die! So Harikesa

> prabhu was rebelling against this reality and preaching that in this area

> of practical application of Krsna Consciousness Srila Prabhupada was

> unrealistic and in error and that this idea had to be altered to in order

> to "accomodate" reality!

>

May I come in here and tell you that you are misrepresenting what Harikesa

is speaking. Your point is not the point that he is making. His point is

that there should be a loving relationship between husband and wife.

This kind of loving relationship did exist between Pandu and his wives.

His point is not that one should abound completely no ilicit sex life

principle, but that this principle should be the goal which we should atain.

Whoever is able to follow it it's great, but those who can't at this point

of time (which seems to be quite some in ISKCON) should strive for attaining

that goal without going crazy or commiting suicide. You do what you can and

you try to be the best you can be. You don't go that far to forse yourself

completely against your own nature that you start to hate yourself and are

not able to give love to others. You don't go that far to suppress yourself

that you are not able to appreciate yourself because you are all the time

thinking how you are rotten and in this way you can't appreciate and love

others. We can only love others if we can love ourselves. If we can't love

ourself and we can't love others there is no question that we can love

Krishna.

 

The whole point being that we should learn to love and appreciate ourself

and others because everybody is part and parcel of Krishna and in this way

we will learn to love Krishna too.

 

I never heard him speaking that what you have writen. Maybe it would be

good if you would at least speak with him before going out public and

trying to present him as some kind of "crazy" man and an offender.

 

Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

> >'why' one performs the external rituals. After all,

> > devotional service is ultimately a matter of the heart.

>

>

> But doesn't everyone start with a dirty heart and isn't that the reason we

all begin this process in the first place? Is there some time schedule that I

missed because I was behind the door when they were passing them out, that

said the "wash" cycle only lasts "this" long and if you don't meet the

schedule you are OUT?

>

 

 

 

If one covets his impure desires, he can't chant for millions of lifetimes

with nominal effect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

On 24 Jan 2000, Sthita-dhi-muni Dasa wrote:

 

>

> If one covets his impure desires, he can't chant for millions of lifetimes

> with nominal effect.

>

 

 

supposed to be 'can chant for millions..."

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Mother Sraddha,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada.

May I begin by asking you to please show me where I referred to HG Hari Kesa

prabhu as a "crazy" person?

May I also point out that in my letter to Harsi Das I made reference to the

enormous effort that my godbrother Harikesa Prabhu made in attempting to

serve His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada - prior to his stepping on the

landmine of mental speculation! I recognize how much sevice he has rendered

and how much he was pleasing to His Divine Grace, but that doesn't change

the fact that at the present moment he has relinquished his service and is

now being battered by the modes of material nature.

 

First of all you are repeating details of Harikesa prabhus "logical" and

"prescient" realizations with a certain degree of admiration and you are

apparrently in agreement with him. So there is going to be a little

difficulty in engaging in an unfettered exchange. I was certain yesterday by

the tone of your letter to me and the letter of Harsi Das, that both of you

were interested in wrangling with me. There is not much to be gained from

such an exchange. If you are interested in becoming more pleasing to Lord

Krsna and his pure devotees that is one thing, but if you are interested in

wrangling you will gain absolutely nothing and only secure Sri Krsna's

displeasure.

 

 

I am a married man who has been serving and genuinely loving his wife for 18

years. Together we are raising 4 sons and twin daughters. I married my wife

after knowing her for all of three months. I have gone through an enormous

amount of "practical experience" and there is no way that Harikesa prabhu

can know what I know at this point in his life. I do not challenge his

sincerity as regards to "trying to understand". But that doesn't change the

fact that he is a neophyte when it comes to honestly understanding love and

marriage etc. etc. etc.

He has used his claimed "desire to correctly introduce varnashrama" as an

excuse or rationalization for renouncing the sannyasa ashrama and directing

his energy towards sex life and procreation. That in itself is 1000% bogus.

He received sannyasa from His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada in 1976 I

believe, in the sacred land of Mayapura India. That ashrama was given or

awarded if you like by His Gurumaharaja, and he renounced it! That type of

renunciation is accomodated by His Divine Grace in the 8th canto in the

pastimes of Gajendra the elephant - but make no mistake - it is not a step

up - it is a step down! And in the case of someone who Srila Prabhupada

trusted enough to appoint as "Officiating Acharya" to initiate newcomers for

his mission upon his departure - it is more than a "step down" it is MAJOR

COLLAPSE! But the collapse occurred long before the official declaration of

intent to marry. The collapse occurred the day he began illegally

associating with women, ostensibly for preaching, but nonetheless illegal

and that willingness to break the rules, has resulted in his being seriously

wounded on the battlefield. Perhaps not fatally but no doubt very seriously.

Pride cometh before the fall! When a sannyasi comes to think that he is

"Above the rules" or that he can bend the rules or make adjustments that

even his own Spiritual Master would never make, at that point his collapse

is not just possible, it is inevitable. When you put butter in the presence

of fire - the butter MUST melt. Not that some butter melts and some does

not! So Harikesa prabhu(Mr Butter) arrogantly placed himself in the presence

of fire(all of his female "help") and he melted! Bas! That's all! So for the

most part all his talk talk talk about love and women and relationships etc

etc etc is just so much rationalization and mental adjustment to accomodate

his own failings and FEELINGS! If you cannot understand that and honestly

accept that then I cannot help you at all.

 

His problem was further compunded by the fact that he initiated a lawsuit in

California, in which he challenged the validity of Srila Prabhupada's

Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Essentially he illegally transferred the

copyrights of Srila Prabhupada's books to a California Corporation. He then

had to defend his actions in the courts and this required literally

"attacking" Srila Prabhupada's position and authority in the court.

Convinced of the validity of his actions by his mind and false ego, he made

blunders that a normal disciple of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada would

never believe imaginable - even in their wildest dreams! We could discuss

the ramifications of that type of "mistake" for days but we can sum it up by

saying simply - He was crushed by the weight of his own offenses to His

Spiritual Master. The lawsuit cost Srila Prabhupada more than $500,000.00

and then when Harikesa prabhu left he demanded an enormous severence ( I

have been told that it was more than a million dollars) to compensate him

for the years of "service" that he rendered! So all in all - His Grace

Harikesa prabhu has practically committed suicide and you expect that he has

something very positive to offer Srila Prabhupada's men and women? What is

your answer? Discussing the reality of "Love" and "Relationships" and

marriage and children etc. etc. with either you or Harsi Das appears to me

as positively ridiculous in light of the fact that you obviously still

consider him as some type of "WISE ONE"! His actions qualify him as

perfectly deserving of Srila Prabhupada's Boot on his head! And you want to

"explain" what I do not understand about whatever it is he has said about

this that or anything else!! I could care less about his ideas - he is

bewildered beyond anything I have ever witnessed and you are still trying to

quote him to me! It is clear your attitude is not the attitude of someone

who genuinely wishes to capitalize upon anything which I could share with

you as a very sincere and experienced grhasta. You have not prefaced your

letter to me with any humble inquiries whatsoever. You share in Hari Kesa

prabhus arrogance! The reality is that Hari Kesa prabhu should have

demonstrated humiility and determination as a sannyasi. He should have

sought the advice and experience of all the devotee men and women who

actually have maintained loving and fruitful marriages for many years

instead of arrogantly declaring all his godbrothers and godsisters as being

so incapable of giving advice that it was necessary for Hari Kesa to

"sacrifice" his sannyasa, and "reluctantly" accept the grhasta ashrama for

the purpose of giving the"proper example" of what the grhasta ashrama is

capable of producing. Before making such a drastic mistake he should have

come to me or someone as experienced and humbly taken some advice. But for

individuals like Hari Kesa - giving advice is the only thing they feel

comfortable doing! But our process is hearing and chanting. Not just

chanting. Now he has to learn the hard way!

 

So as much as I would love to share with you all that my wife and I have

been blessed to learn by the Mercy of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Chaitanya, I

am reluctant to discuss that with you. If you demonstrate a little more

humility - then perhaps. If not - then as you are so convinced of the

"enlightened" and "sincere" status of Harikesa prabhu, all of you can work

at these issues together. In due course you will figure out on your own that

His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada was absolutely correct in EVERYTHING he

taught, and that real love means EVERYONE - men and women - married or

unmarried - hearing and HUMBLY accepting his guidance as the means for

reviving our ORIGINAL LOVING RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA!

 

Ever your loving brother

Praghosa Das

 

 

 

COM: Sraddha (dd) HKS (Gothenburg - S) <Sraddha.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Monday, January 24, 2000 5:01 PM

Re: Speaking from experience

 

 

>[Text 2957240 from COM]

>

> Praghosa prabhu wrote:

>

>> His idea was basically: What man and woman truly marries with the idea

>> that they will live together in a torturous siuation which frustrates

them

>> and generates nothing but regret? Like the brahmana who gives up his

caste

>> by accepting food in the home of a Muslim and due to the poverty of the

>> Muslim, discovers that he cannot actually get enough food to satiate his

>> hunger yet now he has relinquished his caste, a devotee is told that he

>> may marry but can only relate intimately with his loving wife, if and

when

>> he wishes to produce children! Vaisnava marriage transforms a man into a

>> sort of "Pandu Maharaja". You know from Mahabharata that Pandu Maharaja

>> was married to the beautiful queens Madri and Kunti yet he was cursed for

>> some transgression against a brahmana couple disguised as deer, that he

>> could never enjoy sex and the moment he did he would die! So Harikesa

>> prabhu was rebelling against this reality and preaching that in this area

>> of practical application of Krsna Consciousness Srila Prabhupada was

>> unrealistic and in error and that this idea had to be altered to in order

>> to "accomodate" reality!

>>

> May I come in here and tell you that you are misrepresenting what

Harikesa

>is speaking. Your point is not the point that he is making. His point is

>that there should be a loving relationship between husband and wife.

>This kind of loving relationship did exist between Pandu and his wives.

>His point is not that one should abound completely no ilicit sex life

>principle, but that this principle should be the goal which we should

atain.

>Whoever is able to follow it it's great, but those who can't at this point

>of time (which seems to be quite some in ISKCON) should strive for

attaining

>that goal without going crazy or commiting suicide. You do what you can and

>you try to be the best you can be. You don't go that far to forse yourself

>completely against your own nature that you start to hate yourself and are

>not able to give love to others. You don't go that far to suppress yourself

>that you are not able to appreciate yourself because you are all the time

>thinking how you are rotten and in this way you can't appreciate and love

>others. We can only love others if we can love ourselves. If we can't love

>ourself and we can't love others there is no question that we can love

>Krishna.

>

> The whole point being that we should learn to love and appreciate ourself

>and others because everybody is part and parcel of Krishna and in this way

>we will learn to love Krishna too.

>

> I never heard him speaking that what you have writen. Maybe it would be

>good if you would at least speak with him before going out public and

>trying to present him as some kind of "crazy" man and an offender.

>

> Ys. Sraddha dd

[Guest guest]

> not! So Harikesa prabhu(Mr Butter) arrogantly placed himself in the

> presence of fire(all of his female "help") and he melted! Bas! That's all!

 

Why did you "melted" 18 years ago, if I am allowed to ask (Mr. Butter 2) ?

Anything wrong with this?

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila

Prabhupada.

In answer to your question (which is once again just wrangling) YES! I did

indeed melt. But as you have pointed out - that was 18 years ago, so you

have acknowledged my seniority to HariKesa prabhu as far as exprience as a

responsible grhasta goes!

 

My "melting" as you describe began before I met my lovely wife. She was not

the first woman I found attractive enough to interest me in becomeing a

married man. However my determination to remain brahmacari and at the "Beck

an Call" of my Spiritual Master was maintained by my submissive attitude

towards the guidance and service of Srila Prabhupada, through his senior men

and the established system of management of his mission. Such an attitude of

humility is the fertile environment within which we can maintain the real

identity of "prakriti" or enjoyed servants of Guru and Gauranga! And it ws

my careful cultivation of such consciousness and senior association that

provided me with the determination to remain exclusively available to his

Divine Grace. By renouncing that consciousness, my own "melting" was also

inevitable. It is in my own ability to honestly understand this and readily

admit it to anyone and most importantly - myself, that qualifies me to speak

on these topics clearly and beneficially. I have no interest in cheating

myself or anyone else. I call a Spade a Spade and always have and hopefully

I always will!

 

The household ashrama requires the artificial mentality of "purusa" in order

for us to find it attractive - at least in the beginning. Later on of course

we are gently "enlightened" by the experience itself and we realize better

than ever that we are mere menial servants and then the household ashrama

can also serve very wonderfully to foster a greater service attitude to our

Spiritual Master and his devotees. In 1980, I left HH Tamala Krsna Goswami

and my service in the United States, for the GBC of my "Choosing" and the

"service" of my "choice"! So rather than consulting with Godbrothers who

might have discouraged me from "renouncing" my specific service to my Guru -

I avoided those who might have expressed a dissenting opinion of what would

have perhaps better served the INTEREST of Srila Prabhupada and decided to

determine Where, How and Under Whom I was going to "Serve" His Divine Grace.

That consciousness is Mixed Devotional Service at best and if maintained

keeps one on the dangerous side of the "Razors Edge"! So that is the

Grhasta Consciousness - dovetailing material desire in the service of Lord

Krsna. It is certainly a bonefide and legitimate aspect of our development

and one which is most certainly allowed and indeed at times advised by the

Spiritual Master in order to further the development of his disciple! It is

also for most men the next step in the ashrama side of Varnashrama Dharma

from the brahmacari ashrama - which was exactly where I was situated in

1980! But unlike yourself, and I would assume HG Harikesa prabhu, if he

shares your attitude, I am honest enough to admit to myself and anyone else,

precisely how and why I chose to marry as opposed to remaining totally

available to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. If you think that a

brahmacari's decision to marry, guided or unguided, is the same as a

sannyasi who has been ordered to initiate disciples on behalf of our

Acharya, then there is no point in any further discussions between us. I

could only conclude that you are either not serious about getting out of the

material world, you are not very intelligent, you are only interested in

cheating yourself and others, or some combination of all three, in which

case you are most unfortunate and will derive no benefit from discussing

anything with me.

 

You have my full blessings to grow in the association of HG Hari Kesa prabhu

and follow him to wherever. Good Luck!

 

Ever your loving brother and servant

Praghosa Das

 

COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) <Harsi.HKS (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Patrick Hedemark <praghosa (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: India (Continental

Committee) Open (Forum) <India.Open (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Tuesday, January 25, 2000 7:40 AM

Re: Speaking from experience

 

 

>[Text 2958751 from COM]

>

>> not! So Harikesa prabhu(Mr Butter) arrogantly placed himself in the

>> presence of fire(all of his female "help") and he melted! Bas! That's

all!

>

>Why did you "melted" 18 years ago, if I am allowed to ask (Mr. Butter 2) ?

>Anything wrong with this?

>