All people can become priests

May 19, 2006

sri:

[PS: Please address this objectively for an outsider]

Why are their objections to Non-brahmins from becoming priests???

What is it that priests do, and which part of the work cannot be done

by others except brahmins. Please reply with specific duties.

Sowmya Ravi <ravi_sowmya (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote: It is indeed shameful that inspite of India being a hindu country, because

of politicians we are afraid to fight on this issue, wonder if any one will

dare to bring in similar law in other religions like Muslims,

christians etc.

I donot intend to bring this with kind of argument but, my concern is what

happens to varnashrama darma .

And what ultimately can be acheived on this.

regards

ravi iyngar

>Thatha Desikan <tsdesigan (AT) (DOT) co.in>

>ramanuja

>ramanuja, Oppiliappan,

>, desikasampradaya,

>vaideekam

>[ramanuja] All people can become priests

>Thu, 18 May 2006 13:51:29 +0100 (BST)

>

>Pranams to all people,

>

>I hope many would have heard that the current DMK

>government of Tamil Nadu, is going to issue a

>government order that "All people, not just brahmins,

>can become priests in hindu temples". He has intended

>for all the temples that are currently under

>government. They also seems a plan to train many

>non-brahmin people for this.

>

>Our tradition is based on varnashrama darma and not

>caste fights. But, he wont understand this.

>

>Sorry to bring this news to groups, but any idea on

>what all the temples that might get affected?

>

>Regards,

>Desigan

>

Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam

http://www.vedics.net

Bhagavad gita Culture Ways of Sri

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May 19, 2006

Except for the last sentence, all the other logics used reflect an incorrect understanding of our sampradAyam. AzhvArs who are nitya sUri-s, are not to be compared to any Tom, Dick and Harry who walk on the road. rAmAnuja, who undoubdedly was a great reformer, never got any non-brahmin to be a priest, or to enter the sanctum sanctorum. In SrI bhAshyam, he has indicated his position on these kinds of issues. However, I agree that we should follow the guidance of our AcArya-s, and I do not question the right of the writer to have his own personal opinion.

"T. Sampath Kumaran" <tamarapusampath > wrote: Pranams,

We have our Azhwars from all communities. Nammazwar

though belonging to the lowest casts, is being

worshipped in our temples and given a prominent place.

We have accepted Tulaka nachiar. Our great Acharya Sri

Ramanuja was a social reformer who brought in people

from all communities to the Vaishnavite fold.

Instead of getting agitated over the issue we are to

work out an acceptable solution, with the guidance of

our Acharyas.

Adiyen Dsan

Tamarapu Sampath Kumaran

--- Thatha Desikan wrote:

> Pranams to all people,

>

> I hope many would have heard that the current DMK

> government of Tamil Nadu, is going to issue a

> government order that "All people, not just

> brahmins,

> can become priests in hindu temples". He has

> intended

> for all the temples that are currently under

> government. They also seems a plan to train many

> non-brahmin people for this.

>

> Our tradition is based on varnashrama darma and not

> caste fights. But, he wont understand this.

>

> Sorry to bring this news to groups, but any idea on

> what all the temples that might get affected?

>

> Regards,

> Desigan

>

> Send instant messages to your online friends

> http://in.messenger.

>

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May 19, 2006

Dear Devotees,

There are 38000 temples under the control of the HR&CE. Now, out of these 38000 temples not all temples currently have brahmin priests. Most of the saiva and sakta temples have pujaris and they are not from brahmana community. According to some of the scholars, temple worship can be performed by one has undergone respective agama initiation. Before getting agitated, we have to see if there is explicit injunction against non-brahmins becoming priests. Also, we have to see if there is any explicit injunction against sudras becoming priests. The constitution provides protection against intervention of religious expression. So it is possible to fight this out in the supreme court. But the problem is that the traditional mutts have not systematized the knowledge. Also, they have failed to clarify what are the core principles of varnashra are and why they are non-discriminatory.

The government does not provide any funds for the temple maintainence. But it audits the property to ensure that it is not stolen. It is also responsible for appointing Executive Officers who are responsible for temple management. Like every system, there are good intentions but it has become extremely corrupt. The temple properties have been systematically swindled over the last few decades. Many archakas had to leave their profession. Most brahmana families do not get in to matrimony with archaka community. Some of the archakas have connived with government officials in the corrupt practices.

The lord will definitely take care and establish dharma. But we have our duty to perform in terms of disseminating proper knowledge so that every one is pacified. The question is whether we are willing to do that with equanimity to all. One who is a sudra in this life may be a brahmana in another and today's brahmanas may well be born in some other varna. What is important is to protect dharma which is in the interest of one and all.

Best Regards

Rajaram V.

Narasimhan Krishnamachari <champakam > wrote:

This is very disturbing indeed. Obviously they won't listen to our AcAryas. It is my personal observation and belief that bhagavAn takes care of the people who violate His laws in His own way. Once the sanctity of the temple has been violated, it is not a temple anymore, and so ideally we should boycott these as places of worship. But unfortunately the hindu-s are well-known in not uniting together on any mass action, and mass action is successful only when there is mass support. So He is the only One who can show guidance to us on this. I am sure He will give us this guidance through our AcArya-s.

-Krishnamachari

Thatha Desikan <tsdesigan (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote:

Pranams to all people,

I hope many would have heard that the current DMK

government of Tamil Nadu, is going to issue a

government order that "All people, not just brahmins,

can become priests in hindu temples". He has intended

for all the temples that are currently under

government. They also seems a plan to train many

non-brahmin people for this.

Our tradition is based on varnashrama darma and not

caste fights. But, he wont understand this.

Sorry to bring this news to groups, but any idea on

what all the temples that might get affected?

Regards,

Desigan

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May 19, 2006

When there is a problem the lord always send wise devotees. It is nice to hear the views of Jalasayanan and Sampath. Out of the 38000 temples under the control of HR&CE, most of them have non-brahmana priests - especially saiva and sakta temples. According to some vaishnava scholars all that is required for performing poojas in Vaishnava temples is initiation in vaikhanasa agama.

Now, most people know that M. Karunanidhi is a practising Hindu in private albeit for selfish reasons. Even publicly, he is known to to some of the principles of yoga. According to some sources, he is heavily in to tantra ands srauddha karmas for personal gains. It is likely that he has consulted enough scholars before taking this decision. But what is also likely is that he is merely doing this out aggression against the brahmin caste to consolidate DK votes. The other possibility, the most likely one in my opinion, is that he is doing this to appoint priests who will connive with his party men to swindle rich temples.

We have to oppose if it is really against our system. If it is not, which I think is likely the case we have to show that what he is doing is already in place and take the wind out his sail. The biggest problem is the lack of scholary devotees who are willing to spend time and effort on protecting our dharma and disseminate proper knowledge.

ZZZ Jalasayanan <jalasayanan (AT) lycos (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

Sri U Ve Swami Sannadhial Adiyen Dasasya Vijnapanam

There is no need to worry on this, is my humble opinion.

As long as Vaishnavas are appointed for Vaishnavite temples, this is not going to affect us much. Being Paancharaatri, there is no need to make difference between Vaishnav Brahmins and Vaishnav non Brahmins.

Vaikanasa Temples are very much limited and most of them off late has taken Paancharaatra courses

Problems will mostly will be of Siva Temples where in Sivacharyas will face problems.

Even after this, I really doubt how many non brahmins will stick to temple poojas as regular work when the payment is very meagre?

JalasayanaDasan

-

Thatha Desikan

ramanuja ; Oppiliappan ; ; desikasampradaya ; vaideekam

Thursday, May 18, 2006 6:21 PM

All people can become priests

Pranams to all people,

I hope many would have heard that the current DMK

government of Tamil Nadu, is going to issue a

government order that "All people, not just brahmins,

can become priests in hindu temples". He has intended

for all the temples that are currently under

government. They also seems a plan to train many

non-brahmin people for this.

Our tradition is based on varnashrama darma and not

caste fights. But, he wont understand this.

Sorry to bring this news to groups, but any idea on

what all the temples that might get affected?

Regards,

Desigan

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b..

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c..

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May 20, 2006

Adiyen believe that it all because of greediness to earn more money, we

all want to settle in up countries (and say Oh our panoma Ranganathan

has not been sung by Alwars you know !!!). We have not followed our

varnashra dharma, that's why others want to paly our role. Even it is

not bad, The Supreme Lord Sriman Narayanan is not restricted to Brahmins

alone. But at the same time entering a garbha graham needs some purity

in south. In north (where many avatars have taken place )they allow any

one to do poojas .

P.Kannan

________________________________

ramanuja [ramanuja] On

Behalf Of pritesh patel

Friday, May 19, 2006 5:52 PM

ramanuja

[ramanuja] All people can become priests

sri:

[PS: Please address this objectively for an outsider]

Why are their objections to Non-brahmins from becoming priests???

What is it that priests do, and which part of the work cannot be done

by others except brahmins. Please reply with specific duties.

Sowmya Ravi <ravi_sowmya (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:

It is indeed shameful that inspite of India being a hindu country,

because

of politicians we are afraid to fight on this issue, wonder if any one

will

dare to bring in similar law in other religions like Muslims,

christians etc.

I donot intend to bring this with kind of argument but, my concern is

what

happens to varnashrama darma .

And what ultimately can be acheived on this.

regards

ravi iyngar

>Thatha Desikan <tsdesigan (AT) (DOT) co.in>

>ramanuja

>ramanuja, Oppiliappan,

>, desikasampradaya,

>vaideekam

>[ramanuja] All people can become priests

>Thu, 18 May 2006 13:51:29 +0100 (BST)

>

>Pranams to all people,

>

>I hope many would have heard that the current DMK

>government of Tamil Nadu, is going to issue a

>government order that "All people, not just brahmins,

>can become priests in hindu temples". He has intended

>for all the temples that are currently under

>government. They also seems a plan to train many

>non-brahmin people for this.

>

>Our tradition is based on varnashrama darma and not

>caste fights. But, he wont understand this.

>

>Sorry to bring this news to groups, but any idea on

>what all the temples that might get affected?

>

>Regards,

>Desigan

>

Send instant messages to your online friends

http://uk.messenger.

May 21, 2006

Dear Swamin

The temple worship is governed by the two agamas namely Vaikanasa and Pancharatra.

THe diferent temples follow different agamas according to their tradition.

Agamas are smritis as against Nigamas which are vedas which are apurisheya i.e not made by individuals.Vaikanasa is claimed to be Sruti.

The vedas as such do not support idol worship. Hence the agama practices especially Pancharatra have been critisised as non-vedic.

Pancharatra agama has been defended by Yamuna as wll as Vedanta Desika aginst cricism by advaitis like Sankaracharya and Kumarila Bhatta.

Pancharatra has so many samhitas , the importants ones being Sattvata, Jayakhya,Padma.

As to who is quqlified to do worship in temples, the Vaikanasa and Pancharatra agamas express different views.

According to Vaikanasa , the priest must be a householder. Upanayana is the only ceremony required. He may be trained in Vedas and Shrauta texts.He must be a brahmin as upanayana is insisted ,belonging to vaikanasa families.

According to Pancharatra texts, the priet may belong to any ashrama except Sanyasa.

Pancha Samskara and Chakrabja diksha is necessary for pararta puja meaning worshipping for the community. Some Pancharatra texts allow all castes to do puja and even women are allowed to do pujas at temples (Vishwamitra Samhita.).

I am quoting from the book Lakshmi Tantra published by Adyar library edited by Pandit Krishnamacharya in his introductory chapter.

Karma vak manasaihi samyak bhakthanam paramesware

Chaturnam adhikaro vai prapte dikshakrame sati.

(satvata aamhita)

Pama samhita restricts this to Brahmanas .

Pararthayajanam kuryu vipra mukhyanukalpayohnaivadhikarino gauna dikshasamskara varjitah.

( charya padah )

I stand to be corrected..

Adiyen Ramanuja dasan

Soundararajan

.

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May 21, 2006

Dear members,

Here is a slightly dissenting view. Some of you may find it un-

palatable. Even at the risk of being understood and pilloried, I,

even as a SriVaishnavan, would still venture to express the bitter

but inescapable truth.

The state of our temples in T.Nadu is generally pathetic. Out of the

100 odd 'divya-desams' hardly 10-15% are well-cared for. The rest

are all simply going to seed.

One of the main reasons for such a state is the apathy and neglect

of the brahmin community. Once upon a time, lack of money-power used

to be blamed for such neglect. Now, even when there is money-power

to be found amongst the community, there is abject lack of man-power

to do the job. All the brahmins in the 'agrahArams' have become

software-engineers in Silicon Valley and chartered-accountants in

the Middle-East and Africa. Steadily over the past few decades, they

have simply moved on in life to "better their lot" elsewhere than in

temples.

So there is a big vacuum in the affairs of temples in T.Nadu. Both

Nature and Social Order abhor a vacuum. They will see to it the

vacuum fills up, one way or the other. Therefore, if Brahmins have

moved out of temples, it is only natural to expect others in society

to want to take their place.

Brahmins long ago lost the right to claim hereditary rights

for 'archaka' positions in the temples. They simply did not measure

up to the challenge of the times. That is why they all took the easy

way out, took up other non-traditional vocations to better their

material living standards in life. It would be hypocritical on our

part after so many years of dereliction of traditional duty to now

agitate for 'archaka' rights.

Let us be graceful in accepting our faults and failings. Let us pray

and hope that in the hands of other non-brahmin 'archakas' in the

new dispensation in Tamil Nadu the temples will flourish and

prosper. Let us pray to the ALmighty that at least the 100-

odd 'divya desams' will see better days now that they will be

in "better hands". Let us pray that religious-mindedness, theism,

God-fearing attitudes and charitable behaviour ('aram'

and 'aastikam') will now spread far and wide amongst all sections of

society than ever before.

Regards,

dAsan,

Sudarshan

> Thatha Desikan <tsdesigan wrote:

> Pranams to all people,

>

> I hope many would have heard that the current DMK

> government of Tamil Nadu, is going to issue a

> government order that "All people, not just brahmins,

> can become priests in hindu temples". He has intended

> for all the temples that are currently under

> government. They also seems a plan to train many

> non-brahmin people for this.

>

> Our tradition is based on varnashrama darma and not

> caste fights. But, he wont understand this.

>

> Sorry to bring this news to groups, but any idea on

> what all the temples that might get affected?

>

> Regards,

> Desigan

May 21, 2006

Dear Memebers

The Government of Tamil Nadu has approved the order to make any 'qualified' person to become archaka. There is a long way to go, of course. First it needs to be published and objections obtained from public. Then the implementation.For that the Govt. has to find institutions to 'qualify' 'anyoneq' Questions as to where are such insitutions, 'who' will teach and 'what' are the qualifications. To do that the Govrnment as in other cases, would form Commitee and everyone knows what happens to the Commitees and their recommendations. Assuming recommendations do come, litigations on them are not ruled out. When the question of which Thiruman should adore the elephant takes ages in the Court one can imagine the web of legal battle on these issues. In the meantime the Govt. will have a thousand other day to day problems to face than to run after qualifiying 'anyone' for the job of the lacklusture priesthood.

At the end of the day, the malady lies in the temples being under the Government. The day the HR and CE ministries were contemplated the wisemen like Rajaji and others should have resisted and stopped that move. The damage has been done and which ever Government comes here after, the issue would remain alive for reasons other than real interest to implement. In the meantime the existing practice would be continuing.

Srivilliputtur Govindakrishnan Alagar

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May 21, 2006

Dear Sri Soundararajan,

I have heard similar views from other scholars. It is important that practising scholars come out and get together to protect the tradition.

It is in the interest of our tradition if all castes participate in temple worship WITHOUT violating the traditional systems laid out by the great sages. The effort by M. Karunanidhi may be destructive. We have to be wise to convert it in to advantage for the temples and current archaka community.

Best Regards

Rajaram V.

rajan s <rajan_ramaswamy > wrote:

Dear Swamin

The temple worship is governed by the two agamas namely Vaikanasa and Pancharatra.

THe diferent temples follow different agamas according to their tradition..