The decisive question...

[Guest guest]

At 6:26 PM +0100 12/7/99, COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) wrote:

>[Text 2838749 from COM]

>

>> Did Prabhupada ever designate a woman as anything other than a servant of

>> her husband?

>>

>> ys. JMd

>

>O boy, you better haven,t asked that...you may not like the answer from

>Srila Prabhupada.

>

>Letter from 29.7.1975 to Cyavana Swami in Nairobi

>

>"My dear Cyavana Swami"

>

>"I have very much been disturbed of the difficulties in Africa. As the

>leader there you should not have allowed this dissension to take place.

>Shakti mati is an elderly woman and can do important work with the cultured

>Indian society, and she also speaks Swahili.

>SHE MUST BE GIVEN AN IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER. She can work under

>Brahmanada Swami. They may have had some disagreement with you but..

>expert management means to engage ALL of the devotees and not allow them to

>split into different parties."

>

>Nice greetings to GHQ.

>

>yours

>Harsi das

 

I suggest you check what kind of "IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER" Shakti

mati was given. Check back with us when you do.

 

ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

> > Yes, I am speaking about ladies in the WEST ISKCON managing. They are

> > head pujaris, they are head cooks, they are in the boards.

> > Examples: Ganga devi, unmarried, head pujari and head cook (Their

> > Lordships Sri Sri Gandharvika-Giridhari), Sriprada dd, unmarried, head

> > pujari and head cook (Their Lordships Sri Sri Panca-tattva), Savitri dd,

> > married, (her husband is not managing) the chief and the executive of

> > the management board here in Gothenburg, has her own shop by the side

> > too. Almvik board (half of the members men, half women). I don't know

> > which kind of universe you are living in, but I am in this one.

 

> > Your statement that they can't do it, doesn't stop them doing it. I

> > gave you the examples. They are over here and they are doing it, no

> > matter what you say.

 

> Who put them in those positions? Harikesa?

>

> Ys, Sdd

 

> I suggest you check what kind of "IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER" Shakti

> mati was given. Check back with us when you do.

>

> ys. JMd

 

Thats what I found:

 

Letter from Srila Prabhupada 4.9.1975 Vrndavan, to Cyavana Swami in Nairobi.

 

"My dear Cyavana Swami

 

Please accept my blessings

I am in due receipt of your letter dated 14.8.1975 with enclosed copy of

letter to Shakti Mati. So it is good that Shakti Mati is again living in

the temple. Keep here nicely. She is woman, so you call her Mother, as soon

as you call her Mother, that I am so fallen please save me, you are so

great, than she will be very pleased. She is very talented and she can be

organizing the Pujari Dept.

 

You say that the devotees are not enthusiastic, but this is important for

spiritual life. Without Deity, than we are just sleeping and eating, and

again they will return to hippie life. They must take care of the Deity

very carefully. I saw once a film of the Deity instalation there, it was

done very nicely, so why are they now slackening? Shakti Mati can teach

others how to do things. They should assist her."

[Guest guest]

At 9:51 PM +0100 12/7/99, COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) wrote:

>[Text 2839275 from COM]

 

>Letter from Srila Prabhupada 4.9.1975 Vrndavan, to Cyavana Swami in Nairobi.

>

> "My dear Cyavana Swami

>

> Please accept my blessings

> I am in due receipt of your letter dated 14.8.1975 with enclosed copy of

>letter to Shakti Mati. So it is good that Shakti Mati is again living in

>the temple. Keep here nicely. She is woman, so you call her Mother, as soon

>as you call her Mother, that I am so fallen please save me, you are so

>great, than she will be very pleased. She is very talented and she can be

>organizing the Pujari Dept.

 

> You say that the devotees are not enthusiastic, but this is important for

>spiritual life. Without Deity, than we are just sleeping and eating, and

>again they will return to hippie life. They must take care of the Deity

>very carefully. I saw once a film of the Deity instalation there, it was

>done very nicely, so why are they now slackening? Shakti Mati can teach

>others how to do things. They should assist her."

 

So Prabhu, "the "IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER" Shakti mati was given was

to organize the Pujari Dept. and teach others the same. This is an example

of what Prabhupada calls *internal* management. Similarly, Jadurani headed

up the Art department. There are probably other examples of women in charge

of the kitchen. But TP and GBC are examples of *external* management.

 

ys. Sita dd

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/7/99 1:40:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, btb (AT) georgian (DOT) net

writes:

 

<<

So Prabhu, "the "IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER" Shakti mati was given was

to organize the Pujari Dept. and teach others the same. This is an example

of what Prabhupada calls *internal* management. Similarly, Jadurani headed

up the Art department. There are probably other examples of women in charge

of the kitchen. But TP and GBC are examples of *external* management.

 

ys. Sita dd >>

 

 

Excuse my ignorance, but did Srila Prabhupada ever use these terms, internal

and external management?

[Guest guest]

Dear Harsi prabhu:

Pamho, agtSP

 

Thank you for you post, it is very interesting, but did you notice

specially

 

1) Shakti mati is an elderly woman

2) She can work under Brahmanada Swami (NOT BESIDE OR WITH)

 

Srila Prabhupda spoke lots of times about TIME - PLACE - CIRCUMSTANCE, do

you mean that special cases are to be taken as a rule?

By the way can you specifically mention us wich was important position as

manager that she was given?

 

ys, Sridhari dd

>

> [Text 2838749 from COM]

 

 

> Letter from 29.7.1975 to Cyavana Swami in Nairobi

>

> "My dear Cyavana Swami"

>

> "I have very much been disturbed of the difficulties in Africa. As the

> leader there you should not have allowed this dissension to take place.

> Shakti mati is an elderly woman and can do important work with the

cultured

> Indian society, and she also speaks Swahili.

> SHE MUST BE GIVEN AN IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER. She can work under

> Brahmanada Swami. They may have had some disagreement with you but..

> expert management means to engage ALL of the devotees and not allow them

to

> split into different parties."

>

> Nice greetings to GHQ.

>

> yours

> Harsi das

[Guest guest]

>

>

> So Prabhu, "the "IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER" Shakti mati was given was

> to organize the Pujari Dept. and teach others the same. This is an example

> of what Prabhupada calls *internal* management. Similarly, Jadurani headed

> up the Art department. There are probably other examples of women in charge

> of the kitchen. But TP and GBC are examples of *external* management.

>

> ys. Sita dd

 

Conversation July 5 1975

 

Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

[Guest guest]

At 12:53 AM +0100 12/8/99, COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) wrote:

>[Text 2839588 from COM]

>

>>

>> So Prabhu, "the "IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER" Shakti mati was given

>> was to organize the Pujari Dept. and teach others the same. This is an

>> example of what Prabhupada calls *internal* management. Similarly,

>> Jadurani headed up the Art department. There are probably other examples

>> of women in charge of the kitchen. But TP and GBC are examples of

>> *external* management.

>>

>> ys. Sita dd

>

>"But anyone who is expert in management he should be...If there is no expert

> manager, you create some manager."

> SP. Discussion Boston.24.12.1969

>

> Isn,t that also acording to varnasrama? The qualification counts not

>necesarily only the gender.

 

Prabhupada gave an incontrovertible "No!" to women attending VA College.

Why? Because women are like sudras and are never to be trained as external

managers. They should simply assist their husbands:

 

1. They are not fit for such education and/or

2. They are reluctant to receive such education

 

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, is this school for women also, or just for men?

Prabhupada: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to

cleanse home.

Satsvarupa: So they don't attend varnasrama college.

Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the brahmana,

ksatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they are sudras.

That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education-sudra means.

That's all. They should assist the higher class.

 

This is what Narada says about women leaders:

 

Sabha Parva Chapter 5 (Narada to Yudhisthira)

 

"Consolest though women and are they protected in thy realm? I hope thou

placest not any confidence in them, nor divulgest any secret before them."

 

 

>"Harikesa: In America, they have woman senators now. Woman are in charge of

>companies sometimes.

>

> Indian man: No, in India there are two woman. They are high comissionars of

>India to the foreign countries.

>

> Prabhupada: No, that is possible. That requires education. That is

>another..."

> Morning Walk, Vrindavan 10.12,1975

 

Prabhupada is simply saying that due to their mundane academic achievements

some women have been granted these posts. This is certainly not an

endorsement for such unnatural roles. On the contrary. If you had posted

the segment just before and after your snipet, we would hear Prabhupada say:

 

"Prabhupada: Where is equal right? Even in Russia there is no equal rights.

They have created some of them are managers, and some of them are workers.

Why? If equal rights, then everyone should be manager."

 

After your quote Prabhupada continues on this theme by saying:

 

"Indian man: Women are subordinate.

Prabhupada: Not subordinate actually. The occupations are different. It

does not mean... That is another mistake. Just like the leg is walking, and

the head is directing, so although the occupation is different, both of

them are important. We require the head and leg also. If simply head is

there, if there is no leg, then who'll walk? This is the understanding, not

equal. Everyone must have his separate duties to serve the whole. That is

the arrangement. This is real understanding. The most important part of the

body is head, but that does not mean the leg is not important. Leg is

important in its work, and head is important in its work. So we require

both, head and tail both, not that simply leg or simply head. But when we

make comparative study, we can understand that head is more important than

the leg. If you cut your leg, you can live, but if you cut your head,

you'll die. Therefore the conclusion is: head is more important than the

leg. Comparative study. Otherwise head is also required and leg is also

required. You collect some flowers, nice flowers, and, add with it some

green foliage, it becomes more beautiful. Simply flower is not so

beautiful. When it is arrayed with some green foliage, then it becomes more

beautiful. So we have to take in that sense. But comparatively, the flower

is more important than the foliage. But the both of them are required."

 

Where do you find the endorsement for women manangers, or women assuming

traditional male roles?

 

> "I have met with Mrs. Morarji on arriving here in London and she has agreed

>to be the President of our Bombay Board of trustees for building up the

>Juhu project. This is a good oportunity."

> Letter to Giriraja, 12.7.1972

 

He also tried to engage Mrs. Gandhi even though he told us she was a

prostitute for accepting the role of leader. The point is that we have to

make the best use of a bad bargain.

 

>So it seems as long it served the preaching mission, Prabhupada was very

>liberal.

 

Yes.Prabhupada said:

 

"An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come

to Krsna consciousness. First they should become Krsna conscious, and all

the prescribed rules and regulations may later gradually be introduced. In

our Krsna consciousness movement we follow this policy of Lord Sri Caitanya

Mahaprabhu. For example, since boys and girls in the Western countries

freely intermingle, special concessions regarding their customs and habits

are necessary to bring them to Krsna consciousness. The acarya must devise

a means to bring them to devotional service. Therefore, although I am a

sannyasi I sometimes take part in getting boys and girls married, although

in the history of sannyasa no sannyasi has personally taken part in

marrying his disciples."(CC Adi 7.37)

 

And just like he gave up marrying his discipes when he had other properly

trained men to conduct the ceremony, he likewise wanted us to become

progressively stricter in living according to the higher principles of

Vedic life also known as VAD.

 

ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > So Prabhu, "the "IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER" Shakti mati was given

> > was to organize the Pujari Dept. and teach others the same. This is an

> > example of what Prabhupada calls *internal* management. Similarly,

> > Jadurani headed up the Art department. There are probably other examples

> > of women in charge of the kitchen. But TP and GBC are examples of

> > *external* management.

> >

> > ys. Sita dd

>

> Conversation July 5 1975

>

> Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

> Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

 

 

What part of this does anyone not understand? Why can't it end here.

Prabhupada is very clear and concise. Why speculate towards the negative

pessimistic side instead of the positive progressive?

 

It is education which divides the classes. Male and female human beings are

both capable of learning.

 

A woman was put in charge of the entire material energy by Krsna Himself

(Durga) and she is obviously doing a GREAT job!

[Guest guest]

I in no way intend to specifically endorse any particular detail of applying

V/D,

rather, I will say that I heartily agree in principle with the below

understanding, there's no doubt in my mind, after hearing 600 odd lectures

starting from 1966 up to 1975 that Srila Prabhupada certainly wanted *in

spirit*, *if possible*, *if we could do it*, to become more and more strict and

"by the book", in Deity Worship, in financial management in the temples, in

Gurukula development, in applying V/D. Of course, I don't think anyone

slightly

familiar with the history of Srila Prabhupada's preaching, such that we know

it,

starting in Jhansi, would disagree that Srila Prabhupada had both very high

ideals, and according to time and place, as needed, "bent various strictures"

to

help the smooth flow of devotion. Those "bends", should be honestly admitted to

be just that, "bends", not ideals.....although they may well need to stay

"bent"

for some time to come,..in some cases, just because we know the ideal, doesn't

mean we can "jump right on it", but that's common sense....

.

 

Jivan Mukta Dasa wrote:

 

> [And just like he gave up marrying his discipes when he had other properly

> trained men to conduct the ceremony, he likewise wanted us to become

> progressively stricter in living according to the higher principles of

> Vedic life also known as VAD.

>

> ys. JMd

[Guest guest]

> [Text 2841289 from COM]

>

> >

> >

> > So Prabhu, "the "IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER" Shakti mati was given

was

> > to organize the Pujari Dept. and teach others the same. This is an

example

> > of what Prabhupada calls *internal* management. Similarly, Jadurani

headed

> > up the Art department. There are probably other examples of women in

charge

> > of the kitchen. But TP and GBC are examples of *external* management.

> >

> > ys. Sita dd

>

> Conversation July 5 1975

>

> Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

> Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

 

That quote is incomplete...

can someone with folio quote it complete please?

 

ys, Sridhari devi dasi

>

[Guest guest]

> At 12:53 AM +0100 12/8/99, COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO) wrote:

> >[Text 2839588 from COM]

> >

> >>

> >> So Prabhu, "the "IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER" Shakti mati was given

> >> was to organize the Pujari Dept. and teach others the same. This is an

> >> example of what Prabhupada calls *internal* management. Similarly,

> >> Jadurani headed up the Art department. There are probably other

> >> examples of women in charge of the kitchen. But TP and GBC are examples

> >> of *external* management.

> >>

> >> ys. Sita dd

> >

> >"But anyone who is expert in management he should be...If there is no

> >expert

> > manager, you create some manager."

> > SP. Discussion

> > Boston.24.12.1969

> >

> > Isn,t that also acording to varnasrama? The qualification counts not

> >necesarily only the gender.

>

> Prabhupada gave an incontrovertible "No!" to women attending VA College.

> Why? Because women are like sudras and are never to be trained as external

> managers. They should simply assist their husbands:

>

> 1. They are not fit for such education and/or

> 2. They are reluctant to receive such education

>

> Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, is this school for women also, or just for

> men? Prabhupada: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook,

> how to cleanse home.

> Satsvarupa: So they don't attend varnasrama college.

> Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the brahmana,

> ksatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they are sudras.

> That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education-sudra means.

> That's all. They should assist the higher class.

>

> This is what Narada says about women leaders:

>

> Sabha Parva Chapter 5 (Narada to Yudhisthira)

>

> "Consolest though women and are they protected in thy realm? I hope thou

> placest not any confidence in them, nor divulgest any secret before them."

>

>

> >"Harikesa: In America, they have woman senators now. Woman are in charge

> >of companies sometimes.

> >

> > Indian man: No, in India there are two woman. They are high comissionars

> > of

> >India to the foreign countries.

> >

> > Prabhupada: No, that is possible. That requires education. That is

> >another..."

> > Morning Walk, Vrindavan

> > 10.12,1975

>

> Prabhupada is simply saying that due to their mundane academic

> achievements some women have been granted these posts. This is certainly

> not an endorsement for such unnatural roles. On the contrary. If you had

> posted the segment just before and after your snipet, we would hear

> Prabhupada say:

>

> "Prabhupada: Where is equal right? Even in Russia there is no equal

> rights. They have created some of them are managers, and some of them are

> workers. Why? If equal rights, then everyone should be manager."

>

> After your quote Prabhupada continues on this theme by saying:

>

> "Indian man: Women are subordinate.

> Prabhupada: Not subordinate actually. The occupations are different. It

> does not mean... That is another mistake. Just like the leg is walking,

> and the head is directing, so although the occupation is different, both

> of them are important. We require the head and leg also. If simply head is

> there, if there is no leg, then who'll walk? This is the understanding,

> not equal. Everyone must have his separate duties to serve the whole. That

> is the arrangement. This is real understanding. The most important part of

> the body is head, but that does not mean the leg is not important. Leg is

> important in its work, and head is important in its work. So we require

> both, head and tail both, not that simply leg or simply head. But when we

> make comparative study, we can understand that head is more important than

> the leg. If you cut your leg, you can live, but if you cut your head,

> you'll die. Therefore the conclusion is: head is more important than the

> leg. Comparative study. Otherwise head is also required and leg is also

> required. You collect some flowers, nice flowers, and, add with it some

> green foliage, it becomes more beautiful. Simply flower is not so

> beautiful. When it is arrayed with some green foliage, then it becomes

> more beautiful. So we have to take in that sense. But comparatively, the

> flower is more important than the foliage. But the both of them are

> required."

>

> Where do you find the endorsement for women manangers, or women assuming

> traditional male roles?

>

> > "I have met with Mrs. Morarji on arriving here in London and she has

> > agreed

> >to be the President of our Bombay Board of trustees for building up the

> >Juhu project. This is a good oportunity."

> > Letter to Giriraja,

> > 12.7.1972

>

> He also tried to engage Mrs. Gandhi even though he told us she was a

> prostitute for accepting the role of leader. The point is that we have to

> make the best use of a bad bargain.

>

> >So it seems as long it served the preaching mission, Prabhupada was very

> >liberal.

>

> Yes.Prabhupada said:

>

> "An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come

> to Krsna consciousness. First they should become Krsna conscious, and all

> the prescribed rules and regulations may later gradually be introduced. In

> our Krsna consciousness movement we follow this policy of Lord Sri

> Caitanya Mahaprabhu. For example, since boys and girls in the Western

> countries freely intermingle, special concessions regarding their customs

> and habits are necessary to bring them to Krsna consciousness. The acarya

> must devise a means to bring them to devotional service. Therefore,

> although I am a sannyasi I sometimes take part in getting boys and girls

> married, although in the history of sannyasa no sannyasi has personally

> taken part in marrying his disciples."(CC Adi 7.37)

>

> And just like he gave up marrying his discipes when he had other properly

> trained men to conduct the ceremony, he likewise wanted us to become

> progressively stricter in living according to the higher principles of

> Vedic life also known as VAD.

>

> ys. JMd

 

 

Jivan Mukta Prabhu...

 

Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!

[Guest guest]

>> Conversation July 5 1975

>>

>> Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

>> Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

>

>That quote is incomplete...

>can someone with folio quote it complete please?

>

>ys, Sridhari devi dasi

 

Yes, it is incomplete and out of context. If one reads a little before and

a little after this snip, which conveniently excludes the forbidden women

"should remain dependent" part, then one gets a more complete picture.

 

Mrs. Wax: I realize that we're all considered spirit souls. But can a woman

be first-class if she...

 

Prabhupada: Anyone can become first-class. Woman can become first-class if

she is chaste and very much attached to husband. And if the husband is

first-class, she becomes first-class. Because woman's duty is to follow

husband. So if the husband is first-class, the wife is first-class, if she

sticks to the husband.

 

Mrs. Wax: But she can never be first-class unless she has a first class

husband.

 

Prabhupada: No, she is first class by following faithfully husband. And if

the husband is first-class, then woman is first-class.

 

Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

 

Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

 

Mrs. Wax: Glad to hear it.

 

Prabhupada: But because women are less intelligent, they should remain

dependent on first-class father, first-class husband, and first-class son.

Then she is first-class. That is the injunction. Woman should remain

dependent in childhood upon first-class father, in youthhood upon

first-class husband, and in old age upon first-class son. Woman is never

independent. If she becomes independent, her life is not very good. She

must agree to remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband,

and first-class son-three stages.

 

Mrs. Wax: She must become dependent on her son because her husband would

ideally become a sannyasi. Is that...?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. You will find that Kapiladeva is instructing mother. That

picture you can show her. Third Canto? You see the picture in the cover?

The first-class son is instructing mother. Her husband has taken sannyasa

and gone away. The son, first-class son, is instructing mother. That is the

book. You will find full instruction to the mother. You can read one of the

passages. You can read, Nitäi, what He is instructing to His mother. The

mother is questioning, and son is answering.

[Guest guest]

>

> Conversation July 5 1975

>

> Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

> Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

 

Now we can value what great service those devotees did who walked or were

sitting near Srila Prabhupada with the microfone in hand and the big

taperecorder around their shoulder. All glories to them.

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much Sita Mataji!

 

ys, Sridhari dd

>

> >> Conversation July 5 1975

> >>

> >> Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

> >> Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

> >

> >That quote is incomplete...

> >can someone with folio quote it complete please?

> >

> >ys, Sridhari devi dasi

>

> Yes, it is incomplete and out of context. If one reads a little before

and

> a little after this snip, which conveniently excludes the forbidden women

> "should remain dependent" part, then one gets a more complete picture.

>

> Mrs. Wax: I realize that we're all considered spirit souls. But can a

woman

> be first-class if she...

>

> Prabhupada: Anyone can become first-class. Woman can become first-class

if

> she is chaste and very much attached to husband. And if the husband is

> first-class, she becomes first-class. Because woman's duty is to follow

> husband. So if the husband is first-class, the wife is first-class, if

she

> sticks to the husband.

>

> Mrs. Wax: But she can never be first-class unless she has a first class

> husband.

>

> Prabhupada: No, she is first class by following faithfully husband. And

if

> the husband is first-class, then woman is first-class.

>

> Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

>

> Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

>

> Mrs. Wax: Glad to hear it.

>

> Prabhupada: But because women are less intelligent, they should remain

> dependent on first-class father, first-class husband, and first-class

son.

> Then she is first-class. That is the injunction. Woman should remain

> dependent in childhood upon first-class father, in youthhood upon

> first-class husband, and in old age upon first-class son. Woman is never

> independent. If she becomes independent, her life is not very good. She

> must agree to remain dependent on first-class father, first-class

husband,

> and first-class son-three stages.

>

> Mrs. Wax: She must become dependent on her son because her husband would

> ideally become a sannyasi. Is that...?

>

> Prabhupada: Yes. You will find that Kapiladeva is instructing mother.

That

> picture you can show her. Third Canto? You see the picture in the cover?

> The first-class son is instructing mother. Her husband has taken sannyasa

> and gone away. The son, first-class son, is instructing mother. That is

the

> book. You will find full instruction to the mother. You can read one of

the

> passages. You can read, Nitäi, what He is instructing to His mother. The

> mother is questioning, and son is answering.

[Guest guest]

With all due respect please keep in mind that Srila Prabhupada spoke

according to time and circumstance "..Why not?, in principle......" Sometimes

Srila Prabhupada in conversations would say "...just the like the Sun is

93,000,000 miles away..", just speaking in a general, conversational sort of

way, knowing and inwardly accepting the Vedic version of the Sun's distance.

There is one conversation related by a devotee with Srila Prabhupada how

M.Jadurani repeatedly requested permission to do some service off by herself

w/some other senior mothers, Srila Prabhupada after a few requests said,

reportedly, "Allright" and then after M. Jadurani left turned and said to

the devotees present, "Actually this is not proper, women should not be

independant".

So, again, as I've brought up before, and others, there is the "spirit"

of the law, the deep inward feelings of guru/sastra/sadhu, and then there are

various "allowances" made according to time,place, circumstance.

Just like Lord Krsna is very happy with fruits and flowers being

offered to Him w/devotion, as is the Guru, practically no fault could be

found w/that mode of devotion, nevertheless, the transcendental fact is that

Lord Krsna and the Guru have deeper desires to be fulfilled in the shape of

distributing the knowledge of Krsna Consciousness, and the sensitive,

considerate disciple/servant will "pick up" on that fact and do the needful.

Thus Lord Krsna states such pro-active, dedicated servants are particularly

dear to Him.

The daughter may wash the father's car and he's very pleased, and when

she recognizes how much he wants to see everyone in ten miles fed and happy,

and tries to fulfill his actual "life's amibition", along w/washing his car,

the father is "sumptuously pleased".........there are external desires,

loopholes, permissions, etc., etc., and then there is the "spirit", and inner

enthusiasm for particular desires.

I am not saying all women should stay in a box, no arotis, no management,

no nothing...let noone twist what I'm saying. Rather, I'm speaking about a

broad, deep, spiritual principle of honest service, how it applies should be

generally self-evident to the dedicated servant interested in the "spirit" of

the master.....

This requires humility and submission to glorify others who may be

factually more evolved in spiritual life, or at least give up the attempt to

"smudge" our possibly less evolved moods on to the platform of "ideal", "most

desired", devotional service....

All glories to the preachers of Krsna Consciousness, all glories to the

pure chanters of the Holy Name!, hopefully by humbly assisting them,

recognizing and acknowledging whatever material currents may exist in my

heart, trying to exorcise them, , I will gradually advance.......Vaisnava

seva, ki jaya....!

 

your aspiring servant,

Dina Sharana d.

 

"COM: Harsi (das) HKS (Timisoara - RO)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2843272 from COM]

>

> >

> > Conversation July 5 1975

> >

> > Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

> > Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

>

> Now we can value what great service those devotees did who walked or were

> sitting near Srila Prabhupada with the microfone in hand and the big

> taperecorder around their shoulder. All glories to them.

[Guest guest]

>

> >

> > Conversation July 5 1975

> >

> > Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

> > Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

>

> That quote is incomplete...

> can someone with folio quote it complete please?

>

> ys, Sridhari devi dasi

> >

 

Yes, surely this is one of those quotes where we can once again dance around

the direct meaning in order to not have to change what we think.

 

Why, we have invested so much energy into developing a "no women as temple

presidents" paradigm out of indirect quotes, we surely aren't going to let

all that go down the drain over one direct quote to the contrary. Who is Srila

Prabhupada to state such a conclusion when we (the GHQ and allies) can show so

clearly through our analysis what he really must have meant. instead.

[Guest guest]

On 08 Dec 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> Conversation July 5 1975

>

> Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

> Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

 

[Then Mrs Wax said: Glad to hear it.]

 

Aw, c'mnon, now, prabhu--please don't tease us! Please post everything that

Srila Prabhupada said after Mrs. Wax's "Glad to hear it," beginning with:

 

[Prabhupada:] "But because women are less intelligent..."

 

Be brave, prabhu. Post it!!! (I dare you

 

ys,

gkdas

[Guest guest]

> So Prabhu, "the "IMPORTANT POSITION AS A MANAGER" Shakti mati was given was

to organize the Pujari Dept. and teach others the same. This is an example

of what Prabhupada calls *internal* management. Similarly, Jadurani headed up

the Art department. There are probably other examples of women in charge of

the kitchen. But TP and GBC are examples of *external* management.

>

>

 

 

 

Who is to say that being TP is more external that being a head pujari. I mean,

this doesn't have anything to do with that gopi bhava stuff, does it? If so,

the GBC must really be out of it!

 

ys,

 

Sthita

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

"COM: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2844669 from COM]

>

> On 08 Dec 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

> > Conversation July 5 1975

> >

> > Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

> > Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

>

> [Then Mrs Wax said: Glad to hear it.]

>

> Aw, c'mnon, now, prabhu--please don't tease us! Please post everything that

> Srila Prabhupada said after Mrs. Wax's "Glad to hear it," beginning with:

>

> [Prabhupada:] "But because women are less intelligent..."

>

> Be brave, prabhu. Post it!!! (I dare you

>

> ys,

> gkdas

 

It has been posted so many times, and I have read it.

 

Point is that Srila Prabhupada made all those indirect statements GHQ are so

fond of weaving together and come to the conclusion that what Srila Prabhupada

meant to say is that woman shouldn't be temple presidents. yet I have not yet

seen one where he directly said no women as temple presidents. However, being

aware of all the points that he himself made indirectly, he did say directly

that they could be temple presidents (yes yes, so many restrictions,

unlikelihood thereof etc, etc. so stipulated). So Srila Prabhupada comes to

one conclusion, and the GHQ comes to another.

 

Am I to accept that the GHQ has a superior understanding of what Srila

Prabhupada should have said and mean to correct his conclusion?

[Guest guest]

On 16 Dec 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> "COM: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA)" wrote:

>

 

> > On 08 Dec 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

> Point is that Srila Prabhupada made all those indirect statements GHQ are so

> fond of weaving together and come to the conclusion that what Srila

Prabhupada

> meant to say is that woman shouldn't be temple presidents.

 

Point is that in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing ISKCON

he never saw fit to appoint a woman as GBC or tp. Aren't we supposed to learn

by the combined instructions and *example* set by the founder-acarya? But

you're correct to say that he "never said a woman could not be a temple

president."

 

yet I have not yet

> seen one where he directly said no women as temple presidents.

 

Nor I. But I've also never seen where he directly so "no cows allowed to go

out on book distribution" or "no babies allowed to preach i

[Guest guest]

> > "COM: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA)" wrote:

 

> Point is that in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing

> ISKCON he never saw fit to appoint a woman as GBC or tp. Aren't we

> supposed to learn by the combined instructions and *example* set by the

> founder-acarya?

 

 

Also in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing ISKCON he did

not have one single *granddisciple*.

 

Does that eliminate you?

[Guest guest]

On 17 Dec 1999, Janesvara das wrote:

 

> > > "COM: Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL - USA)" wrote:

>

> > Point is that in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing

> > ISKCON he never saw fit to appoint a woman as GBC or tp. Aren't we

> > supposed to learn by the combined instructions and *example* set by the

> > founder-acarya?

>

>

> Also in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing ISKCON he did

> not have one single *granddisciple*.

>

> Does that eliminate you?

 

If only I *could* be eliminated!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

>

>

> yet I have not yet

> > seen one where he directly said no women as temple presidents.

>

> Nor I. But I've also never seen where he directly so "no cows allowed to go

> out on book distribution" or "no babies allowed to preach i

 

Why are so many of your messages cut off?

[Guest guest]

>

> > Also in his entire pastime as founder-acarya of his developing ISKCON he

did

> > not have one single *granddisciple*.

> >

> > Does that eliminate you?

>

> If only I *could* be eliminated!

 

(Krsna consiousness as explained using soccer) There is no I in TEAM. If we

can't function as a team, the real opponent (Mayadevi ) will win.

 

Gosh, as coach giving half time pep talk.

[Guest guest]

>Why are so many of your messages cut off?

 

Krsna's mercy?

 

(isn't everything?)

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi