Guest guest Report post Posted November 26, 1999 > > 1. Energy Independence > A. No electricity or you make your own > B. A $15,000.00 PV utility intertie system doesn't count Dependent, but losing electric would only be an inconvenience. (no COM, etc.) > > > 2. Food Production > A. You grow a significant portion of your food including some grains or > dried beans > B. A few summer tomato plants don't really count > C. You can, dry, root cellar, etc. We both dry, root cellar, and can tomato sauce(30 gsllons of paste tomatoes with skins and seeds removed, then cooked down by 1/2). A few beans this last summer. > > > 3. Residence > A. Are you located in a rural area? > B. Did you build your own house? > C. Is it designed with self sufficiency in mind; heating, lighting, > etc.? > Yes, rural area. Renovated existing house. Heat with some passive solar, mostly wood. Lots of day lighting, have an attached greenhouse for starting plants, root cellar, gravity flow spring water for part of garden irrigation. Organic gardening techniques only. > > 4. Finances > A. Do you need just a little cash to live comfortably? > B. Is your debt minimal or are you dependent on credit? Property paid for, carry some credit card debt, probably use more than a little cash. Have a aprt time job and small real estate investments to finance gardening habit. > > > If you meet even one or two of these criteria or know someone who does, > especially someone who lives in the continental United States, please get in > touch with me. I would love to hear from you, trade ideas, make plans, etc. > > My snail mail address is: > > Acarya dasa > RR 1 Box 835E > Port Royal, PA 17082 > > Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope this meets you in good > health and I beg to remain, > > Your servant, > Acarya dasa Couldn't we communicate on the Practical Varnashram conference? Then others couldbenefit from the exchange. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 26, 1999 Hari bol AGTSP there are many devotees families in alachua area that are in to this wonderful sistem,hand pump,etc, specially with the W T K fenomena some are really fiered up you can contact example Stoka krsna ,das or akinchana krsna das , your servant premananda goura das Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 27, 1999 On 26 Nov 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > > My snail mail address is: > > > > Acarya dasa > > RR 1 Box 835E > > Port Royal, PA 17082 > > > > Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope this meets you in good > > health and I beg to remain, > > > > Your servant, > > Acarya dasa > > Couldn't we communicate on the Practical Varnashram conference? Then others > could benefit from the exchange. > > He's got no phone, no electricity (might have one panel and a battery or two) He's using a borrowed COM account. He COULD go to the Temple and use the public PC, but he would need convincing. YS JvGs ERROR Quoted lines exceeds half the lines of your message. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 27, 1999 > > He's using a borrowed COM account. He COULD go to the Temple and use the > public PC, but he would need convincing. > > YS JvGs > > Yes, the truly self dependent are at a disadvantage in the competitive modern world. Do he have a good enough relationship with the computer guy that the computer guy would print out messages for him? And then type in responses or questions? I know that the farm communities are mostly suburbanites in control, but it would be a way for some suburbanite to somewhat assist in the eventual goal. For real self reliance to occur, they will have to be quite a support system for the foreseeable future, as funny as that may sound. Maybe someone else would volunteer to be his go between. Print out everything practical and mail it to him once a week? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 27, 1999 On 26 Nov 1999, Jiva Goswami wrote: > > > > He's got no phone, no electricity (might have one panel and a battery or two) > > He's using a borrowed COM account. He COULD go to the Temple and use the public PC, but he would need convincing. > > YS JvGs > Where there postage stamps in Vedic culture? .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 27, 1999 On 27 Nov 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote: > > > > He's using a borrowed COM account. He COULD go to the Temple and use the > > public PC, but he would need convincing. > > > > YS JvGs > > > > > > Maybe someone else would volunteer to be his go between. Print out everything > practical and mail it to him once a week? > There's a computer with internet access in a common area at the temple. He goes to the temple on a near daily basis. He knows how to type. Murari could set up an account. I'd call him up to convince him, but... can't seem to find a number. .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 28, 1999 Dear Prabhu: Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. >Do he have a good enough relationship with the computer guy that the computer >guy would print out messages for him? And then type in responses or questions? >Maybe someone else would volunteer to be his go between. Print out everything >practical and mail it to him once a week? I am the computer guy. He has a good relationship with me. I have been printing out the messages for him as well as sending his original post. I will continue to provide this service. >I know that the farm communities are mostly suburbanites in control, but it would >be a way for some suburbanite to somewhat assist in the eventual goal. I prefer to think of myself as a frustrated self-reliant type than a suburbanite. I am frustrated because while in the process of developing my self-reliance, I was overcome by serious illness. As I am frequently bed-bound, I remain quite dependent on so many persons and things. My life has become relatively simple, I have lots of time for hearing and chanting, but I am not living simply. Rather I am simply living. Once upon a time I thought I was in control. Worse still, I became very puffed up and heavily critical of devotees who were not living my conception of simplicity. Krsna straightened me out in a hurry. I believe self-reliance is a gift which Krsna can give or take away. Thank you all very much for your wonderful endeavors and for your kind posts to these conferences. I am always very enlivened by reading them. I wish you all the best of good fortune and I will continue to enjoy your successes vicariously. I hope this meets you in good health and I beg to remain, Your servant, Taraka dasa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 28, 1999 > > > > > He's using a borrowed COM account. He COULD go to the Temple and use the > public PC, but he would need convincing. > > > > YS JvGs > > > > Where there postage stamps in Vedic culture? > Where is Sanjaya when you need him? (Sanjaya uvaca...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 28, 1999 On 28 Nov 1999, Mark Middle Mountain wrote: > > > > > > > > He's using a borrowed COM account. He COULD go to the Temple and use the public PC, but he would need convincing. > > > > > > YS JvGs > > > > > > > Where there postage stamps in Vedic culture? > > > > Where is Sanjaya when you need him? (Sanjaya uvaca...) That was like cable tv without the cable! .. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 28, 1999 > > > There's a computer with internet access in a common area at the temple. He > goes to the temple on a near daily basis. He knows how to type. Murari could > set up an account. I'd call him up to convince him, but... can't seem to find > a number. > I can relate that if he is committed to self reliance, he may not have the time. Maybe someone else in Gita Nagari could do it for him? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 28, 1999 > > > I am the computer guy. He has a good relationship with me. I have been > printing out the messages for him as well as sending his original post. I > will continue to provide this service. That is great. > > > >I know that the farm communities are mostly suburbanites in control, but it > would > >be a way for some suburbanite to somewhat assist in the eventual goal. > > I prefer to think of myself as a frustrated self-reliant type than a > suburbanite. Sorry, no offense intended. > I am frustrated because while in the process of developing my > self-reliance, I was overcome by serious illness. Self reliance is a team effort. By doing this for someone actually in the field, I am sure you are pleasing Krsna. By helping someone succeed in this way, and him potentially becoming a good example, then you are making great service to Srila Prabhupada, who had a special interest in self reliance happening at Gita Nagari. Perhaps in exchange for you printing the messages, he could grow some herb that would be beneficial to you? Not to pry into your medical history, but do you know any herbs that would benefit you? Perhaps we could make some suggestions as to what could be grown there. In NV , we grow ashwaganda, sometimes called Winter Cherry in India, that is a major component of that nasty tasting paste everyone eats tha is from India (chanaprawsh or something like that). It is quite good for a lot of stuff. I am posting an article about it separately. I could send him seeds for it if you and he would be interested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 29, 1999 Hare Krishna, You call this living simply? In traditional cultures, communications were limited to face to face exchanges. When Rukmini wanted to contact Krishna, she engaged a brahmana to personally carry the message. A letter to the Gopis went by the hands of Uddhava. Does no one see the problem here? So many emails trying to work around the limitations of simple living -- to communicate about simple living! Simple living is a state of mind, as well a physical life style. If someone is going to issue a challenging question, "Are you living simply," let him first show by his own example. My experience tells me we are doomed to even more high-tech pontificating on just what is allowed in order to fit under someone's arbitrary criteria of a simple life-style. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se], or [srirama (AT) jps (DOT) net] < PLEASE NOTE THIS NEW EMAIL ADDRESS [http://www.web-construct.net/creditcard.html] > > Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se] > Sunday, November 28, 1999 5:28 AM > Tarakadas (AT) aol (DOT) com; COM: Cow (Protection and related issues); COM: > Practical Varnasrama; COM: Varnasrama development > Re: Are you living simply? > > > [Text 2814149 from COM] > > > > > > > I am the computer guy. He has a good relationship with me. I have been > > printing out the messages for him as well as sending his > original post. I > > will continue to provide this service. > > That is great. > > > > > > > >I know that the farm communities are mostly suburbanites in > control, but it > > would > > >be a way for some suburbanite to somewhat assist in the eventual goal. > > > > I prefer to think of myself as a frustrated self-reliant type than a > > suburbanite. > > Sorry, no offense intended. > > > I am frustrated because while in the process of developing my > > self-reliance, I was overcome by serious illness. > > Self reliance is a team effort. By doing this for someone actually in the > field, I am sure you are pleasing Krsna. By helping someone > succeed in this > way, and him potentially becoming a good example, then you are > making great > service to Srila Prabhupada, who had a special interest in self reliance > happening at Gita Nagari. > > Perhaps in exchange for you printing the messages, he could grow > some herb > that > would be beneficial to you? Not to pry into your medical > history, but do you > know any herbs that would benefit you? Perhaps we could make > some suggestions > as > to what could be grown there. > > In NV , we grow ashwaganda, sometimes called Winter Cherry in > India, that is > a > major component of that nasty tasting paste everyone eats tha is > from India > (chanaprawsh or something like that). It is quite good for a > lot of stuff. > > I am posting an article about it separately. > > I could send him seeds for it if you and he would be interested. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 3, 1999 "COM: Srirama (das) ACBSP" wrote: > [Text 2817505 from COM] > > Hare Krishna, > > You call this living simply? In traditional cultures, communications were > limited to face to face exchanges. When Rukmini wanted to contact Krishna, > she engaged a brahmana to personally carry the message. A letter to the > Gopis went by the hands of Uddhava. People also lived for 1000 years. However, if you would volunteer to carry the messages, I would gladly accept your offer of service. It is approximately 240 miles, which if you were in good shape, you could make the round trip walking in about ten days. If you were able to repeat the cycle 20 times a year, we could actually have a significant exchange of information. > > > Does no one see the problem here? So many emails trying to work around > the limitations of simple living -- to communicate about simple living! > > Simple living is a state of mind, as well a physical life style. If > someone is going to issue a challenging question, "Are you living simply," > let him first show by his own example. I didn't percieve it as challenging. I saw it as a simple request for a desire to network with others who are making the attempt to live out on the land. But it does bring up an apparent contradiction. Simple living is more complex than ugrakarmic life. Today, I could go out and get a job as a truck driver. There are some skills involved, but in a few months I could master them. then, all I need to do is drive truck, go to California and pick up carrots and bring them back to west Virginia. This is simple for me as an individual. Get my paycheck and go out to WalMart and the local chain supermarketand buy any of thousands of things, including carrots. Simple for me as an individual. However, for the society, to get that carrot means rubber plantations in the Orient where peasants had to be driven off the land in order in order to make room for it. the refrigeration unit on the truck with it's Fron replacement and the destruction of some mountain somewhere to mine the ore that makes the copper for the coil. The maintenance of a standing peacetime army to be ready to move to Kuwait if saddam decides to alter the flow of oil. For the global perspective, that carrot on my plate is quite complicated, but for me as an individual, very simple. Drive the truck, listen to nice bhajan tapes, get a check, buy carrots, peas in December, some nice Idaho potatoes for french fries made with ghee from Wisconsin cows, some already ground wheat from North Dakota, all bought at one store, one transaction. Very simple. Now, for me to have that carrot in December with simple living. Not trucks, no refrigeration, from the global perspective, very simple. However, I need to have ordered the seed last winter(can't grow my own seed because of cross pollination with Queen Anne's Lace), hauled compost, got a back ache forking up the soil, weeded, took measures about root maggots, mulched, watered, thinned, not have started them too early because they will get gnarly if in the ground too long, not too late or they won't get size before growth stops, pulled them before the ground freezes so they don't get mushy, have built a root cellar so I can store them for the winter, and have some sawdust to pack them in so they don't go limp. Very complex for me as an individual, simple globally. Now I can think about the potatoes.... Simple living is complex, with high information content for an individual. That is why most simple living revolves around a village, where everyone may grow most of their own fruits and vegetables, but someone specializes as the blacksmith to make the iron pieces needed for the teamster's ox powered equipment, another grows the seeds for carrots. In a traditional village, the entire support system is in place at your birth, and you spend your entire life learning. In contemporary society, that knowledge has been destroyed, so the lords of Ugrakarma can have your loyalty and obedience, your dependency. Wage slaves. so to try to start simple living, there is a huge amount of knowledge that needs to be gathered and exchanged. So it is quite logical that any method at all would be used in this endeavor. To put too many romantic and idealistic restrictions on those trying to live on the land, is to doom them to failure. They don't have the elders to learn from, so they need to take knowledge from whereever. > > > My experience tells me we are doomed to even more high-tech pontificating > on just what is allowed in order to fit under someone's arbitrary criteria > of a simple life-style. > > Your servant, > Sri Rama das Well, I hope we are not too disappointing to you as we flail about on our ascending quest for knowledge about simple living. You are rightly pointing out the danger of using high tech for the purpose of moving towards simple living. I am typing this instead of mulching my strawberries, for example. I think that was the point of Acarya's asking, "Are you living simply?", to avoid the pontificators, and network with the doers, who in most cases won't easily fit into the agrarian romanticist conception of Vedic life that the theorists postulate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 3, 1999 Hare Krishna, You have identified the problem here: simple living, like so many issues currently confronting ISKCON, is a lot more complicated than if looks. There are two basic rationale for adopting simply living standards: 1) Simplifying our personal lives so we can have more time available to cultivate our Krishna consciousness. In this regard, we may actually find that our lives become more complicated as a result of trying to simplify. 2) Helping to develop a culture of knowledge that, while entailing great sacrifice for ourselves, will help future generations to actually attain a simple life style. 3) Preaching by example that if one truly wants this life-style, it can be done with presently available tools and knowledge. 4) Organize rural communities that can shelter the general population, if and when our technological society implodes due to its own actions. It is, therefore, important that we decide for ourselves and our communities which of these goals we are attempting to accomplish at the present. Ideally, we could try to do everything at once; but in practice, it's probably more than we can reasonably hope to achieve in the short run. Lack of clear focus on our short and mid-range goals has repeatedly undermined our attempts for agricultural self-sufficiency. I hope to address these points in depth in a future article. Your servant, Sri Rama das [srirama (AT) bbt (DOT) se], or [srirama (AT) jps (DOT) net] < PLEASE NOTE THIS NEW EMAIL ADDRESS [http://www.web-construct.net/creditcard.html] > > Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se [Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se] > Friday, December 03, 1999 5:05 AM > COM: Cow (Protection and related issues); COM: Practical Varnasrama; > COM: Varnasrama development > Re: Are you living simply? > > > [Text 2828065 from COM] > > > > "COM: Srirama (das) ACBSP" wrote: > > > [Text 2817505 from COM] > > > > Hare Krishna, > > > > You call this living simply? In traditional cultures, > communications were > > limited to face to face exchanges. When Rukmini wanted to > contact Krishna, > > she engaged a brahmana to personally carry the message. A letter to the > > Gopis went by the hands of Uddhava. > > People also lived for 1000 years. However, if you would > volunteer to carry > the > messages, I would gladly accept your offer of service. It is > approximately 240 > miles, which if you were in good shape, you could make the > round trip walking > in about ten days. If you were able to repeat the cycle 20 > times a year, we > could actually have a significant exchange of information. > > > > > > > > Does no one see the problem here? So many emails trying to > work around > > the limitations of simple living -- to communicate about simple living! > > > > Simple living is a state of mind, as well a physical life style. If > > someone is going to issue a challenging question, "Are you > living simply," > > let him first show by his own example. > > I didn't percieve it as challenging. I saw it as a simple > request for a desire > to network with others who are making the attempt to live out on the land. > > But it does bring up an apparent contradiction. Simple living > is more complex > than ugrakarmic life. > > Today, I could go out and get a job as a truck driver. There > are some skills > involved, but in a few months I could master them. then, all I > need to do is > drive truck, go to California and pick up carrots and bring them > back to west > Virginia. This is simple for me as an individual. Get my > paycheck and go out > to WalMart and the local chain supermarketand buy any of > thousands of things, > including carrots. Simple for me as an individual. However, > for the society, > to get that carrot means rubber plantations in the Orient where > peasants had to > be driven off the land in order in order to make room for it. the > refrigeration > unit on the truck with it's Fron replacement and the destruction of some > mountain somewhere to mine the ore that makes the copper for the > coil. The > maintenance of a standing peacetime army to be ready to move to Kuwait if > saddam > decides to alter the flow of oil. For the global perspective, > that carrot on > my plate is quite complicated, but for me as an individual, very simple. > Drive the truck, listen to nice bhajan tapes, get a check, buy carrots, > peas > in December, some nice Idaho potatoes for french fries made with > ghee from > Wisconsin cows, some already ground wheat from North Dakota, all > bought at one > store, one transaction. Very simple. > > Now, for me to have that carrot in December with simple living. > Not trucks, > no refrigeration, from the global perspective, very simple. > However, I need > to have ordered the seed last winter(can't grow my own seed > because of cross > pollination with Queen Anne's Lace), hauled compost, got a back > ache forking > up the soil, weeded, took measures about root maggots, mulched, > watered, > thinned, not have started them too early because they will get > gnarly if in > the > ground too long, not too late or they won't get size before growth stops, > pulled them before the ground freezes so they don't get mushy, > have built a > root cellar so I can store them for the winter, and have some > sawdust to pack > them in so they don't go limp. Very complex for me as an > individual, simple > globally. Now I can think about the potatoes.... > > Simple living is complex, with high information content for an > individual. > That > is why most simple living revolves around a village, where > everyone may grow > most of their own fruits and vegetables, but someone specializes as the > blacksmith to make the iron pieces needed for the teamster's ox powered > equipment, another grows the seeds for carrots. > > In a traditional village, the entire support system is in place > at your birth, > and you spend your entire life learning. In contemporary society, that > knowledge has been destroyed, so the lords of Ugrakarma can have > your loyalty > and obedience, your dependency. Wage slaves. so to try to start simple > living, there is a huge amount of knowledge that needs to be gathered and > exchanged. So it is quite logical that any method at all would > be used in this > endeavor. To put too many romantic and idealistic restrictions > on those trying > to live on the land, is to doom them to failure. They don't > have the elders > to > learn from, so they need to take knowledge from whereever. > > > > > > > My experience tells me we are doomed to even more high-tech > pontificating > > on just what is allowed in order to fit under someone's > arbitrary criteria > > of a simple life-style. > > > > Your servant, > > Sri Rama das > > Well, I hope we are not too disappointing to you as we flail about on our > ascending quest for knowledge about simple living. You are > rightly pointing > out > the danger of using high tech for the purpose of moving towards > simple living. > I am typing this instead of mulching my strawberries, for example. > > I think that was the point of Acarya's asking, "Are you living > simply?", to > avoid the pontificators, and network with the doers, who in > most cases won't > easily fit into the agrarian romanticist conception of Vedic life that the > theorists postulate. > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 4, 1999 > In a traditional village, the entire support system is in place at your > birth, and you spend your entire life learning. In contemporary society, > that knowledge has been destroyed .... so to try to > start simple living, there is a huge amount of knowledge that needs to be > gathered and exchanged. So it is quite logical that any method at all > would be used in this endeavor. To put too many romantic and idealistic > restrictions on those trying to live on the land, is to doom them to > failure. They don't have the elders to > learn from, so they need to take knowledge from whereever. Very good point Madhava Ghosh Prabhu. I particularly like your term "the agrarian romanticist conception of Vedic life that the theorists postulate". There is idealism and there is reality. We need to work towards that which is ideal but more often than not that which is realistically feasible will not correspond to that which would be ideal. So, for the time being, we have to make some compromise. Utility is the principle. It seems to me that the points that you made about the romanticist ideal of simple living versus that which is presently feasible also apply to other vedic ideals. For instance, there is a romanticist conception of how a Vedic woman has to be ("cooking, cleaning and caring for the kids") that some theorists fanatically postulate. While I believe that it is indeed imperative for our society and the world at large to strengthen the family unit by "creating" chaste and loving mothers, I also believe that those devotee matajis who are not exactly able to live up to this ideal should not be angrily attacked without understanding their background. We must not forget that many women in this movement have not had the good fortune of growing up in a traditional village setting supported by a loving extended family and the excellent role model of a chaste mother. Some may have grown up in a dysfunctional family, may have been abused or abandoned, and may have been forced to fend for themselves for so many years whithout a caring husband, brother or father. Is it possible to turn such a woman into a chaste and submissice vedic lady? I dont think so. Particularly not over night and probably not even in this life time. So why try? You cannot force square pegs through round holes. No matter how much you pontificate, pose as holier than thou and angrily attack, you cannot turn an independent western woman into a submissive vedic lamb. All you will achieve is outrage and violent polarization (presently going on between GHQ and women´s ministry). Here is another thought along these lines (idealism versus realism): The ideal for a devotee is to wake up before four, go to mangal arati, chant sixteen rounds, attend darshan, guru puja and class, and in the evening again have a spiritual program which includes arati and class. This lifestyle can easily be practiced by a brahmacari, sannyasi or a vanaprashta who has no family duties, no financial worries and no obligation other than maintaining his spiritual vows. But what about devotees who are performing the occupational duties of a farmer (or manager or labourer)? How realistic is it to expect a devotee farmer to do all this and at the same time run a prosperous farm and maintain a family? Shouldn´t there be more of a distinction in the future between the spiritual standards of a vaishya and those of a brahmana? Wouldn´t it be more realistic to initiate a farmer who wants to be a devotee into a vow which is less strict and demanding (4 rounds or something like that)? ys Anantarupa das Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 4, 1999 Hari Krishna It has been my experience that the people who speak with such wistful longing for a simpler existence have never had to experience the brutal reality of it. One of my best friends is an 84 year old red Indian woman. She heard me lamenting about life being so complicated now days. She snorted with derision, ha you white people are never happy with your life always looking for "simpler " ways. For your information The "good old days " were terrible old days. The streets of most cites were mud all winter, the streets smelled of dung and coal and filth. My little brothers died of terrible diseases that are now curable for under five dollars a shot. My mother died of consumption (tubercles) coughing up blood. We shivered all winter and sweated all summer. We worked long and hard just to have enough food to develop malnutrition from our efforts. You want to go back to that? You guys are full of self righteous hog wash. Grab the good and keep it close. Ignore or fight the evil and bad stuff. Deal with what can't be changed and be done with it for Gods sake! Pretty wise old lady huh! I agree if there is a PV system I can afford why not use it. I never did see any advantage to lifting when I can get a pulley or a fork lift to do it for me. I think we get into this scripture slinging mode and think that is the only way to go. Prepare for the worst pray for the best. I applaud every attempt to live simply. But while I really could live off the land eating berries and drinking out of rain water puddles, I don't. I like a cozy warm bed I like printed books (as opposed to hand written) I like electricity and solar panels and air line travel and banana splits and Ice cream and all the wonderful comforts of modern life. Like Radhe Krishna says the simple life may be carrots from the grocery store. The simple life should be in your heart. Do what you can and what you must but not what "THEY SAY YOU SHOULD!" If you circumstances are such that a flowerpot in the window is all you can manage then by all means do it. And have the best darn flowers that there have ever been, growing in that one flower pot! Life and circumstances shape our life's but we control the direction and the actions. Blossom where you are planted and make the world richer for your existence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 5, 1999 > > Lack of clear focus on our short and mid-range goals has repeatedly > undermined our attempts for agricultural self-sufficiency. > > I hope to address these points in depth in a future article. > > Your servant, > Sri Rama das One of the problems is that the attempts to reach the goal are seen as an either or type of deal, like either we are at the ideal, or we aren't, but in order for it to actually manifest, will be a lot of incremental steps. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. If you buy pizza at a chain restaurant, buy at a locally owned place instead. Better is to buy frozen pizza and make it at home. Better to buy pizza from a devotee. Better to buy ingredients and make it from scratch. Better to buy the ingredients at a farmer's market. Better to buy the ingredients from a devotee. Better to grow your own tomates and make your own sauce, trade for devotee grown grain. Better to grow your own tomatoes and wheat, trade for the cheese. Better to eat raw tomatoes. Not where we are, but what direction are we headed is the important thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 5, 1999 > Hari Krishna > It has been my experience that the people who speak with such wistful > longing for a simpler existence have never had to experience the brutal > reality of it. It is true, there are many. One of my best friends is an 84 year old red Indian woman. > She heard me lamenting about life being so complicated now days. She > snorted with derision, ha you white people are never happy with your life > always looking for "simpler " ways. For your information The "good old > days " were terrible old days. It is true that the cities were all muddy. But why go to the city? The red Indians had a life expectancy of about 40 years I have heard. I have lived for months in Tipis in the UK (surprise!). On days with no wind the smoke just hangs in the lodge, and the rain falls right in through the smoke flaps. It is damp, your eyes sting, you cough etc...etc. They were nomads, and ate a diet of meat, and wild greens. It is no wonder they had problems and short life, despite their reputedly evolved philosophical leanings. In terms of technology, in South India there is an old British architect, who stayed on in India after Independance, being encouraged by Gandhi, as he was an expert on low cost housing using local materials. He often laments that there was a wealth of research going on as regards building with brick: arches, domes, etc, that stopped with the advent of short lived cement concrete (it falls apart much more quickly that brickwork, is hell to demolish, and comes from huge terrible industries). Building in brick or stone was done for thousands of years, by people who figured many wonderful ways of working with material natures forces, to craft incredible edifices. Cement concrete flies in the face of natures laws, and its ugrakarmic nature is ever present. There is nothing wrong with innovation and simple technology. Prabhupada says that we are not against simple machines, as long as they do not create unemployment. He argues that castor lamps are so simple, grow the castor, make a little lamp from some clay, add a cotton wick, and viola...light! The electrical alternative requires huge industry to maintain, ugra karma. OK so they are not exactly like halogen lights, so then go to bed early. You can easily chant by lamp light in the early morning, in fact it is very nice, and then read when the sun comes up. In south India I witnessed simple local people who grew the simplest rice, and lived almost poverty stricken lives in dark damp hovel-like mud and grass huts. They were happy enough, but they did not need to live in such poor conditions. For a start they lived in an area where you can grow valuable spices. Their problem was that they were just unable to innovate with what they had. Their lives could have been so much better, with a little intelligence added to their living situations. Of course they had no idea, so they just accepted the way they were. But with some improvements their health could have been maintained more easily. Living simply does not have to mean accepting poverty. My little > brothers died of terrible diseases that are now curable for under five > dollars a shot. My mother died of consumption (tubercles) coughing up > blood. If one eats healthily, and one worships god, disease can be less. Of course if one did some terrible things in his last life, he will have to suffer, but Krsna does take care. He does love us, and will make our lives bearable if we trust in him, and hanker for him. We shivered all winter and sweated all summer. We worked long and > hard just to have enough food to develop malnutrition from our efforts. > You want to go back to that? It is not like everyone in the world had to go through that. The redskins time had come, and they went through terrible suffering at the hands of the self righteous whiteman. The simple life should be in your heart. Do what you > can and what you must but not what "THEY SAY YOU SHOULD!" That is very important. We should enter into anything with our eyes wide open, not because of pressure. Although simple life may be more complicated in the beginning, as we have to learn so much in a short time, not even knowing where our teachers are (of course we DO have Carol on com, thanks be to our wonderfull Blue Lord), we should understand that the benefits of doing so are well worth it. Surrendering to the world as it is, makes us dependant. We are ISKCON but we are dependant on the governments, we are parasites on society, as opposed to being a positive alternative to it as Prabhupada wanted. The thing with simple living which is MOST important is that it is all based on relying on the systems Krsna has created. It means tuning into systems of life, and utilising them to provide all our needs. This will situate us firmly in the mode of goodness, and seeing the way in which Krsnas wonderfull creation provides our every need, with only a little stewardship from us will help us understand our actual position in this world. So initialy it will be very complex, and even mind boggling. We need to have patience. But I know from my own experience, that it is only ignorance, that frightens us. It does not take long to learn a few basic skills. The difficulty is that we have to learn many skills all at once. So I think the trick is to get yourself into a situation where you can gradually wean yourself onto it. Look at the Amish. They were in America, at the same time as those injuns were being decimated on the west coast, yet they have been living solid comfortable, yet simple lives ever since. They knew how much technology to accept, and what to reject in their quest for God consciousness. Prabhupada says that a balanced varnasrama system is what we need. The injuns were like an abandoned tribe of ksatria warriors. I have heard that some tribes did cultivate grain. I wonder if they were in a better postion than the buffalo hunters? Your Servant Samba das Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 1999 In a message dated 12/5/99 7:50:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se writes: > If you buy pizza at a chain restaurant, buy at a locally owned place instead. > > Better is to buy frozen pizza and make it at home. Better to buy pizza from > a > devotee. Better to buy ingredients and make it from scratch. Better to buy > the > ingredients at a farmer's market. Better to buy the ingredients from a > devotee. Better to grow your own tomatoes and make your own sauce, trade > for > devotee grown grain. Better to grow your own tomatoes and wheat, trade for > the > cheese. Better to eat raw tomatoes. Better to eat raw tomatoes? Better to send your wife to the temple to bring back some Maha prasad! ;-) What's the final conclusion of this progression? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 1999 > > How realistic is it to expect a devotee farmer to do all this and at the > same time run a prosperous farm and maintain a family? Shouldn´t there be > more of a distinction in the future between the spiritual standards of a > vaishya and those of a brahmana? Wouldn´t it be more realistic to initiate a > farmer who wants to be a devotee into a vow which is less strict and > demanding (4 rounds or something like that)? > > ys Anantarupa das There will definitely be differences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 1999 > I have lived > for months in Tipis in the UK (surprise!). On days with no wind the smoke > just hangs in the lodge, and the rain falls right in through the smoke > flaps. It is damp, your eyes sting, you cough etc...etc. You needed a tipi guru. i know people who have lived very comfortably in tipis, but it is a more complicated art form of life, knowing how to manipulate the smoke flaps, inner liner etc. I remember one Deity kitchen in New Vrindaban that has terrible to work in because of the smoke in the woodcookstoves. To this day, they still cook with gas, thanks to that experience, but when I got my wood cookstove, and studied the correct installation, I could immediately see what the problem and been, and that it was correctable. > > Prabhupada says that a balanced varnasrama system is what we need. The > injuns were like an abandoned tribe of ksatria warriors. I have heard that > some tribes did cultivate grain. I wonder if they were in a better postion > than the buffalo hunters? > > Your Servant > Samba das Actually, the farmer indians got wiped out easier. The nomadic vision we have is of the tribes who were able to survive through mobility and hunting. The tipi was the summer home , the RV, of the tribes who wintered in the forests, and who were driven out onto the plains as "civilization" spread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 1999 > > > Better to eat raw tomatoes? Better to send your wife to the temple to bring > back some Maha prasad! ;-) What's the final conclusion of this progression? Better to send your wife to the temple to trade some tomatoes for burfy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 1999 >Better to send your wife to the temple to trade some tomatoes for burfy? Send the wife? All unprotected? How un-vedic! Why not leave the wife at home, well taken care of, and have the husband go and get the burfy? Or of course, you could also send her there carried on a pallequin. The possibilities are limitless. Ys, Madhusudani dasi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 1999 "COM: Madhusudani Radha (dd) JPS (Mill Valley - USA)" wrote: > [Text 2836175 from COM] > > >Better to send your wife to the temple to trade some tomatoes for burfy? > > Send the wife? All unprotected? How un-vedic! Why not leave the > wife at home, well taken care of, and have the husband go and get the > burfy? Or of course, you could also send her there carried on a > pallequin. The possibilities are limitless. > > Ys, > Madhusudani dasi Naturally, the 25% of produce I pay to local land trustee will be paying for safe roads. Other problem, uncontrolled tongue of husband may be unsafe for burfy on way home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 9, 1999 > You needed a tipi guru. i know people who have lived very comfortably in > tipis, but it is a more complicated art form of life, knowing how to > manipulate the smoke flaps, inner liner etc. Can you reccomend anyone? (nah, only kidding). Actualy it did cross my mind to build one right now, as I need to move onto our land as soon as possible, we have already had one theft up there (it was only a small plastic bin, they emptied the rotting veggie scraps and made off with the bin, but that was all there was anyway). But there is no way a tipi would survive a cyclone. Actualy the problem I had with the smoke was more to do with damp wood. I remember at other times with a good blaze going, and a canopy (I forget the name) stretched between the anchor rope and down behind the lining, it was really pleasant. Fantastic dwellings tipis. I was trying to figure out why the Indians had such a short lifespan (whitemen with rifles not withstanding). Really its true if someone needs to move into the great outdoors in a hurry, with a minimum of cost, but a maximum of comfort, a tipi is a really good choice. I might make what they call a 'bender' in Ireland, which might be similar to a wikkiup in Red Indian lore. Its basicly a dome or tunnel like structure made from willow or hazel or other flexible saplings, of about 15 to 20 feet long, which are stuck into the ground, and wrapped around each other to creat a kind of skeletal form (you can make a sweat lodge in the same way, but smaller). Lay a tarpaulin over it, and install a small stove made from a 'can' or milk churn or something, and you have an instant cosy home. I used to drape a carpet or fabric 'hanging' over the poles before putting the canvas, to provide some colourful 'wallpaper'. These structures are much more stable than a tipi, smokeflaps would be useless in a cyclone, and would have to be closed. The main drawback with a bender is that it looks like a huge ugly slug, compared to the elegance of a well made lodge, but beauty isn't everything! I am still trying to find an old bus which would be the easiest solution for now. Lets see. > I remember one Deity kitchen in New Vrindaban that has terrible to work > in because of the smoke in the woodcookstoves. To this day, they still > cook with gas, thanks to that experience, but when I got my wood > cookstove, and studied the correct installation, I could immediately see > what the problem and been, and that it was correctable. Yes a vent pipe from outside near the air feed of the stove can be good, and also to make sure that the chimney or flue is long enough. We had a lot of stoves in Ireland. YS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
