A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

[Guest guest]

Haribol prabhus,

PAMHO AGTSP

All glories to the devotees who genuinely celebrate Govardhana Puja and Go

Puja on this auspicious day.

 

Hare Krsna dasi wrote as part of a very informative and upsetting piece:

 

9. In March 1998, the COW conference posted the following letter from

Radha Krsna (das) ACBSP (GB)

 

March 17, 1998 6:10 AM [Text 1171506]

 

Before I left for India I had a report from Daiva Dina Dayal in Innisrath,

Ireland. He told me the cows were sick and he wanted to see to them. On my

last two days or so he arrived in India and gave me more details: He said

these animals needed attention to: lice, ringworm, foot-trimming attention

causing lameness, arthritis, due to lying on cold damp concrete, and

overweight problems; because these animals or some of them are from

another higher region where the animals survive on much poorer pasture

than where they are at present and have been allowed unrestricted grazing.

 

He had left one boy there in charge for the time being, but his

recommendation was that if the temple do not want to allocate a permanent

person or persons to look after the cows properly they should give them to

another temple. What do you think the next move should be?

 

*** In April, Pragosh prabhu responded to the complaints***

 

15 Apr 98 07:45 +0000 [Text 1243861 from COM]

"COM: Pragosh (das) SDG (IRL)

 

I have been part of the Irish yatra for the last 15 years and want to make

2 points regarding the cow programme on Inis Rath.

 

1/ None of the present devotees at Inis Rath had anything to do with the

initiation of the cow programme there. They have simply inherited it from

previous management.

 

2/ Over the last few years, as Manu prabhu mentioned, a considerable

amount of effort and laxmi has gone into improving the conditions there

for the cows. New yard and gosala etc. Such things cost a lot of laxmi

- real and genuine blood, sweat and tears are sacrificed in the endeavour

to get that laxmi together. It is not so difficult to come along after,

ignorant of the history, and start passing judgement on the situation,

using as a comparison the ideal, picture perfect situation for Krsna's

cows.

 

Finally I would just like to say that whatever problems may or may not be

prevalent at Inis Rath that they pale into insignificance when compared to

the problems regarding the cows at Mayapur, Murari Sevaka, and New

Vrindavana among others.

 

***Two points to note about Pragosh prabhu's entry: 1) Implication that

most problems at Inis Rath were due to previous poor management, and 2)

the fact that as early as April 1998, Murari Sevaka was already regarded

as a trouble spot for cow protection by authorities such as himself.***

 

 

 

I would like to comment on this. Firstly no cow abuse pales into

insignificance because it's unacceptable - full stop. Although I personally

know and respect both Manu, Pragosh and all devotees here. The facts are

maybe correct in some ways as were presented, but other facts are clearly

not presented. Whereas Radha Krsna prabhu and Daiva Dina Dayal prabhu were

correct about the apparent lacks, I don't feel that either devotee were

familiar with the situation to make a fair comment, and therefore feel that

the devotee community has been somewhat misled on these issues. The facts

are as follows:

1. There were no farmers at Govindadvipa, some people tried to look after

the animals but failed. I honestly think that the cow programme was badly

failing, but it was through ignorance of their needs etc.

2. For years myself and husband had given programmes for grazing, etc. to

the community but it was not followed out in a strict management system, but

sentiment gave way to logic. Hence there were hoof problems and weight

problems because people felt it was cruel to keep them in all winter, and

there was problems with manpower to feed them. (I know all the arguments

about if we can find time to feed ourselves etc. I'm not defending, just

clarifying facts)

3. After several requests and very difficult meetings with devotees here,

myself and husband agreed to give up our smallholding and move here. It was

a difficult move, traumatic and very problmatic for us. This is not an easy

place to just come and move into, it's difficult to stay here and be a

committed member of this community.

4.When we did finally get ourselves partially sorted out, (we didn't have

any permanent accommodation etc. and for income I had to work, which meant

my husband was moving house, looking after my children, and trying to look

after the cows and bring the relationships between devotees to the stage

whereby they could and would continue to support cow protection ) we started

with the basics, such as daily feeding, and we did treat for ring-worm, but

didn't have facilities to properly sort out the sheds because there was no

cow money. We also had to change certain things, which we don't agree with,

such as the selling of silage to local farmers, or the trading of fodder for

cutting services etc. This no longer happens.

5. We decided to take a trip to India with the family for three weeks before

we fully committed to this programme because there were difficulties and we

needed to think things out, because it is a huge commitment. By the way, it

was not a fly by night lets do India again programme either, it was our

first trip after a long time scraping and saving, and relenting not to go

due to land and service commitments. My husband is a highly responsible

devotee and has been distributing books, doing Pujari work, and rearing fine

devotee chilren for 25 years. Twenty of them spent on the land, and indeed

he is known practically as the only farmer who has ever really worked any

ISKCON farm in Ireland. He is steady in his sadhana and is a sincere

devotee. We had cared for a considerable amount of animals before we moved

back here, and indeed cared for this herd when the cowherd went to other

programmes, as far back as 1982. No animal ever died unnaturally due to

neglect in our care, not even a chicken except through natural causes!

6.On going to India, we couldn't get anyone to feed the cows, and paid

someone who was resident here to feed them, and asked that they would be

checked, and this at a stage when we were not commited to taking full

responsibility. We did this mainly because we had goats, and a family cow

which we wanted to ensure were looked after. We would not have gone if we

thought anything would happen to our own animals let alone any others which

were not our total responsibility.

7. On our return, the person had left (as so many people have done, a steady

crew has been the main reason of any neglect or ignorance here, as it has

consistantly changed since ISKCON POLITICS entered the emerald isle).

Instead Davia Dina Dayal, himself a devotee who stayed but such a short

while and generally not highly involved in trying to get anything

sustainable going here, although a very nice and concerned devotee at that,

was here and had taken commendably so, responsibility for the cows. He

continued to work with the cows for a short time, and then left. In that

time, we tried to learn what we could about hoof-care from him, and we left

him to it while we got ourselves sorted, he obviously knew what he was

doing.

8. When we finally got sorted, and following the departure of DDD prabhu, we

took over responsibility since. The hoof care is a problem, but I'm enrolled

on a course to solve this, we have half a crush made, and we have no

over-weight cows. Also we demanded that the temple put money from our land

sale into cow-protection and this was done. We have been constantly

struggling against years of neglect and lack of knowledge.

9. Radha Krsna prabhu did come to Ireland to a one day Varnashrama Seminar

and stayed here a day or two. He spoke with my husband as I was working at

the time. From my recollection of the day, which was cut short so people

could escape the waves on the lake, when Radha Krsna spoke, it was not about

cow protection, but about his toilet and his book. In fact that is all I

remember him talking about. To me, it may be a vital part of varnashrama

from his point of view, but to become an authority on our land and our

crisis is not realistic. Neither is Daiva Dina Dayal's, because they were in

transit, like all the other people who came to be the cow saviours of

Ireland. This is really my point, it didn't take these two individuals to

let us know the problems, but they certainly were not so committed to become

part of the solution, at least here. We have had neglect. Honestly if you

were to see our cow report you'd know that we're not blind about this, and

we work bloody hard all day, we still have problems! It boils down to damage

control and gradually upgrading an inherited problem in a responsible and

sustainable way. We are well below the standards, I can admit that and I am

a cowherder. But this is not going to get fixed overnight and no neglect

that we can avoid is allowed. If we can't get it done by temple laxmi, my

family do without. If we can't get someone to build it, then we try our hand

at it ourselves. If we can't get someone to feed them, then we don't leave.

And if we can't get constructive help, then please spare us the heresay of

not fully informed transient devotees, no matter what their good intentions

are. We need a little more than good intentions. If our statement of reality

concerning the known levels of 'failure' that still exists shocks anyone, so

be it. But we have made a lot of personal sacrifices to take this on, and I

might say even reluctantly so because we know that nobody else probably

will.

 

And finally, I will defend nobody else in connection to this. We still don't

have any cow monies as such, and we still have an uphill struggle. But these

cows are loved, respected, utilised - all but our older untrained ox which I

haven't gotton too far with, and their health is generally good. The hooves

will always be a problems which means we gain the skills to do something

about it. The temple are slowly beginning to understand what it is to have

cows, but it is very slow because we don't have farmers yet, and we'll see

if there ever will be. In nine years approximately only one cow has calved

and that is my own family cow, who will remain in our life long care, and

the off-spring is being trained and cared for. Cows have died, devotees

misguided, some even uninterested, but since all the details of Murari

Sevaka etc. are coming out, please be accurate with all facts, and then

print or publicise. I don't care about the publicity but the truth should be

printed and not single sided versions. I don't defend the neglect of years,

indeed I am horrified and have very stongly condemmed it myself. So please

print the truth, in all the details because it takes more than making a few

cow-patties on a goshalla wall to maintain cow protection, especially since

the report was initially sent with such a wealth of knowledge and authority.

I can only ask why these enlightened devotees didn't communicate this with

the devotees here, question them and God forbid, they may have even offered

some solutions or guidelines before blasting the yatra from a distance.

 

As it has been pointed out that this Murari Sevaka was a known problem then,

why was there no action taken, it was very obvious that alarm bells were

ringing out for us in Ireland. Why are these farms allowed to continue to

breed if they have a track record of abuse, neglect and 'missing' cows?

Should there not be a ban imposed on the breeding and enforced as there

seems little point in GBC passing laws such as the cow protection one, if

nobody takes any notice of them?

ys

[Guest guest]

> Once a devotee asked

> Srila Prabhupada if we should farm communally or seperate and he replied

> that faming meant communally.

 

>

 

> In Vrndavan the cows were taken care of communally wern't they.

 

No. they were cared for in common, perhaps, but not communally. there was

private ownership.

 

>

>

> YS

> Dvibhuja das

 

I will respond to the rest of your post later, but would be very interested to

see if you can produce the actual quote above mentioned first.

[Guest guest]

>

> Hopefully, this practice of taking what amounts to a blood-money tax credit

at

> Saranagati has now ended. If it has not yet ended, Saranagati will be able

to

> see

> clearly that it is by no means alone in failure to meet minimun cow

protection

> standards.

 

Here is an opportunity for those in the cash economy to step up. It seems if

money

for fencing were forthcoming, then a good deal of land could be freed up for

protected cows. Farms with excess could send some there, and donors could

support

their care there, which would also create a job in a rural community for a

cowherd.

 

Just an idea, don't know if it is actually workable, but some concerned

administrator might consider checking into the possibility.

 

We have a ball park figure that a cow can be nicely maintained for $800 a year.

An

investment of $10,000 to 15,000 could generate that amount each year. Which

would

guarantuee the care of a cow in perpetuity.

 

Standing in front of Yamaraja. He looks at your karmic ledger, and rubs his

chin. On the negative side, whatever whatever. Done. Chiseled in stone,

but on

the positive side, something puzzling. Even though you stand in front of him,

having shed the mortal coil, your pious activities continue to ratchet

upwards,

as the income generated from your donation continues to benefit cows.

[Guest guest]

> [Text 2768428 from COM]

>

> >

> > Hopefully, this practice of taking what amounts to a blood-money tax

credit

> at

> > Saranagati has now ended. If it has not yet ended, Saranagati will be

able

> to

> > see

> > clearly that it is by no means alone in failure to meet minimun cow

> protection

> > standards.

>

> Here is an opportunity for those in the cash economy to step up. It seems

if

> money

> for fencing were forthcoming, then a good deal of land could be freed up

for

> protected cows. Farms with excess could send some there, and donors

could

> support

> their care there, which would also create a job in a rural community for

a

> cowherd.

>

> Just an idea, don't know if it is actually workable, but some concerned

> administrator might consider checking into the possibility.

>

> We have a ball park figure that a cow can be nicely maintained for $800 a

year.

> An

> investment of $10,000 to 15,000 could generate that amount each year.

Which

> would

> guarantuee the care of a cow in perpetuity.

>

> Standing in front of Yamaraja. He looks at your karmic ledger, and rubs

his

> chin. On the negative side, whatever whatever. Done. Chiseled in

stone,

> but on

> the positive side, something puzzling. Even though you stand in front of

him,

> having shed the mortal coil, your pious activities continue to ratchet

> upwards,

> as the income generated from your donation continues to benefit cows.

>

Or, even the first one year's blood money could have been used to buy the

fencing and the problem would have been solved. Instead the money was used

for what? And for how many years?

[Guest guest]

"COM: Ananda Maya (dd) SDG (Derrylin - Northern Ireland)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2768085 from COM]

>

> Haribol prabhus,

> PAMHO AGTSP

>

> Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

> "Hopefully, this practice of taking what amounts to a blood-money tax credit

> at

> Saranagati has now ended."

>

> Is there any difference in this blood money and ISKCON using the money if

> recupped from this Drumila person? Should we not see it as the same?

 

Yes. It is completely different -- if properly applied.

 

The money that Drumila made from arranging for the sale of the cows should be

returned to the cows in some form -- like a payment of damages for their

sufferings.

 

It should be used for the care of the remaining cows -- veterinary care, feed,

compensating cow herds, etc.

 

It is quite different because it is what amounts to a payment of damages for

abuse to the cows.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

[Guest guest]

"COM: Ananda Maya (dd) SDG (Derrylin - Northern Ireland)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2768085 from COM]

>

> Haribol prabhus,

> PAMHO AGTSP

>

> Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

> "Hopefully, this practice of taking what amounts to a blood-money tax credit

> at

> Saranagati has now ended."

>

> Is there any difference in this blood money and ISKCON using the money if

> recupped from this Drumila person? Should we not see it as the same?

 

1. As I mentioned in the previous note, the money should be used to compensate

the cow family for the damages done to them -- e.g. to provide veterinary care,

housing improvement, feed, cow herd care, fencing, etc. It is a payment of

damages to the cows.

 

2. In the case of Saranagati, as far as I can understand, the $10,000 per year

was never used to advance the cause of cow protection in any way. For example,

the prime problem was lack of good fencing to keep out the neighbors beef

cattle. So just think, although fencing can be expensive, if I spent $10,000

per year on putting up fencing, after ten years, I might even have 5 miles of

fencing by now. But since there was no attempt to remedy the problem in this

way, it appears that the main purpose of taking the tax credit was not to

further the cause of cow protection nor to protect Srila Prabhupada's land from

being used to promote cow slaughter.

 

But the important point, as I say, is that hopefully the practice has stopped

by

this time. And, if not, Saranagati devotees should take heart in the fact that

many communities in ISKCON are implicated with problems of cow abuse. Take

heart, chant Hare Krsna, make some kind of public apology, and rectify the

situation. Thus you avoid accumulating further inauspicious karma. Again,

hopefully the situation is already rectified, only the public apology is

lacking.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

 

 

your servant,

[Guest guest]

It was a letter that was written many years ago fo course. I do remeber it

though because we were a developing farm community and we wanted to know

things such as whether a devotee should farm seperately or work together.

My limited understanding is that private ownership is not wrong by any

means, but that is not the panacea in the case of cow protection. The

problems of cow protection is mainly increasing cows beyond our capacity to

maintain them properly. Here at New Talavan we have received cows from

Murari twice due to their problems maintaining them. They were delivered in

the middle of the night by some devotees who felt we should take them. Then

they had a couple of cows then some 10 or 15 years later here they come

again. This time after some householder sent them to slaughter. Then we

have also received cows from Oklahoma farm when they closed down. Also a

couple here and ther from various devotees who couldn't maintain them. So

New Talavan is something like a shelter for cows that would have otherwise

been slaughtered.

The problem with cow protection is that it is not profitable enough for

most people. Once the heard gets big it is all just discussion anyway. It

will be many years before the cowherd here and at NV will become manageble

enough that there could be some possiblility of profit for some Grhasta.

Now we spend most of our energy just maintaining a large herd that we don't

get any use out of. Of course this can change and will eventualy by the

grace of the Lord, but to say that cow protection should be privatized now

is simply some misunderstanding about the reality. Who will take hundreds

of cows and milk ten of them. I am sure that would take a few good milkers

and then when they have calves bring them back to the temple and say here

take them or they will have to slaughter, such as I Have experience of. So

philosphy is one thing, practicality is another.

 

YS

Dvibhuja Das

 

COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

<Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and

related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Wednesday, November 10, 1999 5:00 AM

Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

 

 

>[Text 2768350 from COM]

>

>> Once a devotee asked

>> Srila Prabhupada if we should farm communally or seperate and he replied

>> that faming meant communally.

>

>>

>

>> In Vrndavan the cows were taken care of communally wern't they.

>

>No. they were cared for in common, perhaps, but not communally. there

was

>private ownership.

>

>>

>>

>> YS

>> Dvibhuja das

>

>I will respond to the rest of your post later, but would be very

interested to

>see if you can produce the actual quote above mentioned first.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dvibhuja dasa

Ø Once a devotee asked Srila Prabhupada if we should farm communally or

seperate and he replied that faming meant communally.

 

I believe this is the quote he is referring to, from conversations with

devotees on August 1, 1975 in New Talavan.

 

Nityänanda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce

the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food

independently?

Prabhupäda: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Commu nity means

work everything for the community.

Devotee: Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the

cows, some men… They can (indistinct) responsible.

Prabhupäda: No, it is service (?).

 

Dvibhuja was present, but like most of us having poor fund of memory has

forgotten - we are lucky that we have Vedabase.

Ys,

Rohita dasa

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/10/99 9:40:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, ISCOWP (AT) bbt (DOT) se

writes:

 

<< And what about the 2 cows and 1 bull sold for breeding? It is the

Ministry's recommendation that these animals be sought after and brought

back to Murari.

We pray they have not been slaughtered yet.

>>

 

I applaud the ISCOWP for creating a responsible system of accounting for our

mother cows. Perhaps the cows could be given birth certificates as well as

death certificates, to help protect their peaceful existence and help us be

accountable for them.

 

When we take on responsibility for a cow or any animal, that responsibility

is a lifetime commitment for that animal's natural life. That animal becomes

a member of the family. Family members are not traded in for better stock.

We are to learn to unconditionally love and support them.

 

Srila Prabhupada taught us that if a cow lives a natural life duration the

next birth that jiva would take birth in the human form. To prevent the

living entities chance to become human and have the opportunity of solving

the riddle of samsara though Krishna consciousness is the greatest violence.

Our duty as Vaisnavas is to facilitate Krishna consciousness in this human

form.

 

Societies that do not give protection to women and children, also abuse

animals. The next segment of the population to get abused are old men. When

will the abuse end? We are all in-line for abuse sooner are later, if we

don't stop it now.

 

YS, Kusha devi dasi

[Guest guest]

> We have had neglect. Honestly if you

> were to see our cow report you'd know that we're not blind about this, and

> we work bloody hard all day, we still have problems! It boils down to damage

> control and gradually upgrading an inherited problem in a responsible and

> sustainable way. We are well below the standards, I can admit that and I am

> a cowherder

 

I totally hear this. I could cut and paste this for New Vrindaban. Most

devotees don't care anything about cows except to satisfy tongue with the milk,

a few making lots of sacrificies to maintain barely minimal conditionsd, and

the passers through criticizing the few for not having the higher standard when

it is the apathy of the many that created the situation. The simplistic

looking

for a magic bullet to solve the problems instead of the difficult committements

to attain true standards.

 

 

 

 

>

> Should there not be a ban imposed on the breeding and enforced as there

> seems little point in GBC passing laws such as the cow protection one, if

> nobody takes any notice of them?

> ys

 

There are very exacting and prohibitive preconditions to breeding contained in

the GBC resolution, meant to prevent future such occurences. Enforcement is

problematic, but at least the knowledge is there.

 

The point of the Standards were so anyone could have some systematic idea of

what should be going on, so the old excuse "We didn't know!" is no longer

acceptable.

[Guest guest]

> Or, even the first one year's blood money could have been used to buy the

> fencing and the problem would have been solved. Instead the money was used

> for what? And for how many years?

 

I was going to make the same point. How much does 5 miles of fencing cost.

Surely $11,000 would cover it?

 

YS

[Guest guest]

High tensile fencing installed by a professional runs about $1 US @ foot plus

$150 US per brace station. The number of brace stations is determined by the

number of turns and gates. For sake of discussion, say 10 stations per mile.

One mile would thus be around $6800 US. Assuming the $10,000 was Canadian

currency, it still seems possible to do 1 mile per year. Depending on shape,

but with a square enclosing the most possible space, that is about 40 acres

by

rough calculation. A four year plan enclosing a space could end up with a

square with a perimeter of 4 miles of fence totaling 640 acres.

 

Obviously there are a lot of variables, so none of this should be taken as

other

than ballparking.

 

"COM: Samba (das) SDG (Mauritius)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2770737 from COM]

>

> > Or, even the first one year's blood money could have been used to buy the

> > fencing and the problem would have been solved. Instead the money was used

> > for what? And for how many years?

>

> I was going to make the same point. How much does 5 miles of fencing cost.

> Surely $11,000 would cover it?

>

> YS

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2769448 from COM]

>

> Dvibhuja dasa

> Ø Once a devotee asked Srila Prabhupada if we should farm communally

or

> seperate and he replied that faming meant communally.

>

> I believe this is the quote he is referring to, from conversations with

> devotees on August 1, 1975 in New Talavan.

>

> Nityänanda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce

> the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food

> independently?

> Prabhupäda: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Commu nity

means

> work everything for the community.

> Devotee: Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the

> cows, some menI They can (indistinct) responsible.

> Prabhupäda: No, it is service (?).

 

There is a distinct difference between commuinty and communally. Communally is

a

function of common ownership. Community is a function of common goals.

 

For instance, it is not necessary that every family owns there own apple

press.

The time it takes to set it up and clean it, for a small amount of apples or

grapes, may be prohibitive, but if I could take my juice apples to someone

who

is going to be juicing all day, and give a portion of the juice in exchange,

my

time is better utilised.

 

The extra juice the juice man makes he can trade to someone who specialized in

drying tomatoes, etc. That seems to be what Srila Prabhupada is saying. In

communal living, none wants to prune the trees, compost them, keep the grass

down, pick the apples or press them. But they will all show up to drink the

juice.

 

Communism doesn't work.

 

The communal aspect of doing things may have some limited application within a

larger community, but doesn't work as the dominant way of organization.

Ownership turns sand into gold, and vice versa. I am currently observing the

systematic dismantling and destruction of New Vrindaban by the leadership that

still functions on a communal paradigm. The 70s are over guys, Trotsky and

Che

are dead.

[Guest guest]

But Lrod Chaitanya and Srila Prabhupada are not.

 

COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

<Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

talavan (AT) com (DOT) org <talavan (AT) com (DOT) org>; COM: Cow (Protection and related

issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Thursday, November 11, 1999 4:50 AM

Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

 

 

>[Text 2771099 from COM]

>

>

>

>"WWW: Rohita (Dasa) ACBSP (New Talavan MS - USA)" wrote:

>

>> [Text 2769448 from COM]

>>

>> Dvibhuja dasa

>> Ø Once a devotee asked Srila Prabhupada if we should farm

communally

>or

>> seperate and he replied that faming meant communally.

>>

>> I believe this is the quote he is referring to, from conversations with

>> devotees on August 1, 1975 in New Talavan.

>>

>> Nityänanda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and

produce

>> the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food

>> independently?

>> Prabhupäda: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Commu nity

>means

>> work everything for the community.

>> Devotee: Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the

>> cows, some menI They can (indistinct) responsible.

>> Prabhupäda: No, it is service (?).

>

>There is a distinct difference between commuinty and communally.

Communally is

>a

>function of common ownership. Community is a function of common goals.

>

>For instance, it is not necessary that every family owns there own apple

>press.

>The time it takes to set it up and clean it, for a small amount of apples

or

>grapes, may be prohibitive, but if I could take my juice apples to

someone

>who

>is going to be juicing all day, and give a portion of the juice in

exchange,

>my

>time is better utilised.

>

>The extra juice the juice man makes he can trade to someone who specialized

in

>drying tomatoes, etc. That seems to be what Srila Prabhupada is saying.

In

>communal living, none wants to prune the trees, compost them, keep the

grass

>down, pick the apples or press them. But they will all show up to drink

the

>juice.

>

>Communism doesn't work.

>

>The communal aspect of doing things may have some limited application

within a

>larger community, but doesn't work as the dominant way of organization.

>Ownership turns sand into gold, and vice versa. I am currently observing

the

>systematic dismantling and destruction of New Vrindaban by the leadership

that

>still functions on a communal paradigm. The 70s are over guys, Trotsky

and

>Che

>are dead.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Communism doesn't work.

>

> The communal aspect of doing things may have some limited application

> within a larger community, but doesn't work as the dominant way of

> organization. Ownership turns sand into gold, and vice versa. I am

> currently observing the systematic dismantling and destruction of New

> Vrindaban by the leadership that still functions on a communal paradigm.

> The 70s are over guys, Trotsky and Che are dead.

 

Dvibhuja das wrote:

 

> But Lrod Chaitanya and Srila Prabhupada are not.

 

So would you say they where promoting Communism for their devotees as a

social and economical form of living?

[Guest guest]

Martin wrote:

 

> [Text 2771581 from COM]

>

> But Lrod Chaitanya and Srila Prabhupada are not.

 

And? Please show where they ever espoused communism as a means for societal

organization. The proferred quote certainly didn't.

 

Commu nity

 

> >means

> >> work everything for the community.

> >> Devotee: Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the

> >> cows, some menI They can (indistinct) responsible.

 

It doesn't say working for the commune.

[Guest guest]

If the King is Krishna, who would mind working for Hime? It is just

semantics anyway. We are devotees and to try and legislate this ism or that

ism isn't them message of Lord Caitanya or Srila Prabhupada, the message is

simple that we surrender everything to Krishna. So you say well you should

not be communal in your surrender, but everything should be owned by Grhasta

and I say how do you propose to do that with cow protection. Lets don't

argue isms, what can be done now. On one hand you are crying the GBC has to

make sure that cows are being protected and on the other you are saying they

should be controlled by Grhasta. Please explain one example of where there

is any Grhasta taking care of 150 cows by himself. And if he is do you

think the GBC would be allowed to send the cows their when other temples in

His or Her zone has the need in order to protect the cow. Please just give

me your vision of how to protect comws without communal cooperation. Please

anybocy give me one practical example of how to do this in ISKCON. Not when

Ksatriyas ruled the earth or some other distant time. Right here and now or

even 30 or 40 years in the future. How to do it? That is what I mean. You

can call it communism if you want but the cows have to be protected by those

who do it to please Krishna and unfortunately show me the person right now

who can do it alone. Or one that can do it without remuneration of some

sort. For Gods sake many times the pujaris are paid in ISKCON, and they

don't even have to slosh trought the mud in the freezing weather, or be

kicked oar have to chase calves and mothers sometimes. So again I have all

respect for the concept that in general people are more inclined to work if

they are well remenunerated which is sort of what is being put forth, but

Cow protection is not like that in reality. It is not profitable in the

mundane sense. If it was it would be the Vedic culture. The milk is cheap,

but the meat is the most materialistically desirable. So if its my dairy,

then who the hell are you or some GBC to tell me I can't sell some cows to

maintain the rest of the herd. Already this has happened. But everyone

even Mother Hare Krishna is so busy shooting down the ISKCON projects and

then Maharj comes up with this lets us privatize utopian idea, when actually

the problem is where is your devotion to fixing the system we have. Oh the

system is wrong, thats why it doesn't work. Not Drumilla should never have

been in charge of a temple therefore it is the problem of management not the

system. The system may change but no matter what system it is if we are not

Krishna Conscious it will be a failure.

Again I ask anyone to tell me in a practical sense what should be done.

Don't just criticize that o NV has so much blood on their hands, Saranagati

di this, etc. Those things are of course to be corrrected, but what do you

suppose can be done to make sure that the temples are better equipped to

gradually reach that platform we are all striving for. When the oxens are

engaged properly according to Srila Prabhupada's desire, when mother cows

milk is appreciated by everyone devotees and karmis alike. In the form of

yogurt,butter,ghee,butter,curd,etc. I wish that at least someone would be a

little more practical about helping these communities that are striving to

actually implement cow protection. Not just sit back and say Oh can you

beleive they did this or that. Half the time it is an exxageration anyway

and the other half it was corrected already and the other half are trying

their best. So we sat back and do our little thing and say look at those

skinny cows. So in this way Drumillas flourish. Where is the actual

commitment. Is it time to milk. How can I adopt a team of oxen. Can I

help bring some devotees to some farm and start this oxen program. I guess

not unless you can make a buck right?

 

YS

Dvibhuja Das

 

COM: Madhava Gosh (das) ACBSP (New Vrindavan - USA)

<Madhava.Gosh.ACBSP (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net <laksmi (AT) datastar (DOT) net>; COM: Cow (Protection and

related issues) <Cow (AT) bbt (DOT) se>; COM: Varnasrama development

<Varnasrama.development (AT) bbt (DOT) se>

Thursday, November 11, 1999 2:10 PM

Re: A History of Cow Abuse in ISKCON

 

 

>[Text 2772250 from COM]

>

>

>

>Martin wrote:

>

>> [Text 2771581 from COM]

>>

>> But Lrod Chaitanya and Srila Prabhupada are not.

>

>And? Please show where they ever espoused communism as a means for

societal

>organization. The proferred quote certainly didn't.

>

>Commu nity

>

>> >means

>> >> work everything for the community.

>> >> Devotee: Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of

the

>> >> cows, some menI They can (indistinct) responsible.

>

>It doesn't say working for the commune.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

 

Hare Krsna dasi (Brunswick, Maine - USA)

10-Nov-99 23:17

Malati (dd) ACBSP (Columbus - USA) [5729] (received: 10-Nov-99

Cow (Protection and related issues) [3874]

Cc: Free Forum (Announcements) [3577] (sender: Mukhya (dd) (SysOp)

 

"COM: Malati (dd) ACBSP (Columbus - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2769531 from COM]

>

> Hare Krishna..Is there documentation proof as of this horror storey?

> (ie:some kind of facts to verify the statements?) I think this is very

> important in order to get your points across effectively and insure an

> adequate response.

>

> I could not eat lunch today as a result of reading your letter. Children,

> women, cows,....what/who is next?

 

Malati Prabhu

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I'm not sure whether you are addressing me directly. (I never know if

devotees are addressing me unless they call me Hare Krsna dasi or Mother

Hare

Krsna -- that's a life-long joke my spiritual master played on me.)

 

Anyway, as for documentation. I have given what I could. The FBI has a

saying: "There is no justice without investigation." In general, our

policy

in ISKCON has been: We don't investigate. The Child Protection Office (is

that the correct name) is fortunately changing that. Investigation --

especially by impartial and thorough outside investigators -- costs money,

and unfortunately we have never wanted to spend that money to investigate

whether certain charges are factual. It's almost like a Catch 22 in ISKCON:

Don't bring up these allegations until we have investigated to see if they

are

true. And when do you plan to do that investigation? -- Never!

 

On the other hand, I have only quoted from sources whom I personally feel

are

credible. For example, when a devotee with the strength of character and

reputation for competent cow care of the stature of Syamasundara prabhu

states

that the mathematics for the Vrndavana and Mayapura gosalla indicates that

hundreds of cows are missing from what should be there, I give him very

strong

credence. His logic is very strong.

 

The fact that the GBC's have never investigated this situation and have

never

made any public apology for the unfortunate history of their projects is

very

disturbing to me. In fact, I must say that it makes me question their

qualification as spiritual leaders.

 

I am happy to see that you personally are working on reports for New

Vrndavana, etc. Much better late than never. The past history of New

Vrndavana should also be investigated. Once again, as Vyapaka prabhu points

out, the mathematics do not add up. According to the number of cows they

bred

per year, there should be many more cows there. The situation is somewhat

awkward because is seems that much of the problem took place while New

Vrndavana was not part of ISKCON. Nevertheless, those cows originally

belonged to ISKCON. They did not leave ISKCON when the leader of their

community became a demon. They were trapped there. So, still ultimately,

we

should take the responsibility.

 

On the other hand, any community can, on its own investigate its record of

abuses -- to the cows, to the children, to the women, and even to other

devotees -- it can work to come up with its true history, no matter how

shameful that history may be. Then it can present that history before the

devotees, before Srila Prabhupada and before the Deities. It can pray for

forgiveness and pray for the intelligence and the spirit of cooperation to

rectify the sins of the past. Out of such an act of purification can come

great hope and a very practical lesson for generations of the future not to

repeat our grievous errors.

 

I feel very strongly that much of our current troubles of quarrels come from

our failure to come to grips with our shameful history of cow abuse in

ISKCON. The GBC where abuse has occurred probably have a good idea of what

has happened. Certainly it is their duty to Srila Prabhupada to make sure

that the management of all their communities is going nicely. If cows are

being abused, it means that "all the affairs of management [are going] to

hell" as Srila Prabhupada states in the Seventh Canto.

 

How can ISKCON progress unless we atone for our offenses to Krsna's

messengers, the cows?

 

But it is so much more than simply clearing out the bad karma from our sins

of

the past (or even of the present). If only we will investigate this

situation

with the cows, when we seriously look for the answers to solve the problem

we

will change our way of life in a manner that will be much more conducive to

Krsna consciousness.

 

Sarve sukhino bhavantu -- Make Everyone Happy -- is what Srila Prabhupada

said

many times. And that begins with the cows. If we make arrangements so that

the cows can actually be taken care of nicely, it will require a complete

social restructuring. And that complete restructuring, to "thoroughly

overhaul society" as Prabhupada put it, will be into a society where

everyone

is treated well, and everyone is encouraged in his or her service to Krsna.

 

You ask what is next? What is next is abuse of the elderly -- that's you

and

me in a very few more years. That's really what is next -- unless we clean

up

ISKCON and beg Krsna for forgiveness for our spiritual blindness and our

sins

of the past.

 

Children, women, cows.... I just have to say that I was not surprised that

Vrndavana, which is noted for its history of child abuse, and which has

evidently lost several hundred cows over the years, was the site of the

recent

beatings of women. Vrndavana has never publicly apologized for its history

of

child abuse or cow abuse. This indicates a very weak spiritual leadership.

Thus, I am not at all surprised to hear about women abuse. These things are

all connected. Without a doubt there are many sincere devotees living and

serving Prabhupada there, including the current cowherd. However, when the

leadership is so weak that it will not apologize instantly and seek

atonement

for all its abuses to the children and cows and women, it creates a great

handicap for the general spiritual advancement of our society.

 

The question must be asked: Are people who will not uphold the principles

taught by Srila Prabhupada and the laws of ISKCON fit to be our spiritual

leaders?

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

(Text COM:2769698) --------