gurukulas - slaughter houses

[Guest guest]

Hari bol not the gurukulis are not affenders,some of them were victim of

demons,and yes there is gonna many good things happening because of the

gurukulis getting together and trying to fix so many problems that we have ,I

hope they get more serius in SP order,what is the good thing to see ISKCON

been dry up of laxmi,wile most of the youth,including myself are lazy and in

maya not even chanting our rounds,living la vida loca with karmis,acting like

sudras and melechas,not respecting SP instructions,ISKCON is for the next

generations,I was listening to SP class he says dont leave the temple,dont

leave tha asotiation of devotees why??because again you become a

demon,rascal,as soon you leave the asotitation of devotees you become a demon

again,so I see my children,nieces,looking up to the karmis,there

music,mentality,and lifestile,that is not maya??what is good out there in the

karmi schools and world??yes we have problems,but SP said ISKCON WITH ALL

FAULTS I LOVE THEE,so you all gurukulis love it??? do service,help us save

the next generations from predetors,please come more to the temples,lead

kirtans,give clasess,dont let a group of demons that attak you spoil the

party,saves us too by opening our eyes to ignorance and politics,and material

stuff still hanging in our temples,.

your servant

premananda goura das

[Guest guest]

Hari bol not the gurukulis are not affenders,some of them were victim of

demons,and yes there is gonna many good things happening because of the

gurukulis getting together and trying to fix so many problems that we have ,I

hope they get more serius in SP order,what is the good thing to see ISKCON

been dry up of laxmi,wile most of the youth,including myself are lazy and in

maya not even chanting our rounds,living la vida loca with karmis,acting like

sudras and melechas,not respecting SP instructions,ISKCON is for the next

generations,I was listening to SP class he says dont leave the temple,dont

leave tha asotiation of devotees why??because again you become a

demon,rascal,as soon you leave the asotitation of devotees you become a demon

again,so I see my children,nieces,looking up to the karmis,there

music,mentality,and lifestile,that is not maya??what is good out there in the

karmi schools and world??yes we have problems,but SP said ISKCON WITH ALL

FAULTS I LOVE THEE,so you all gurukulis love it??? do service,help us save

the next generations from predetors,please come more to the temples,lead

kirtans,give clasess,dont let a group of demons that attak you spoil the

party,saves us too by opening our eyes to ignorance and politics,and material

stuff still hanging in our temples,.

your servant

premananda goura das

[Guest guest]

> yes we have problems,but SP said ISKCON WITH ALL FAULTS I LOVE THEE,so you

> all gurukulis love it???

 

I wonder if ISKCON today is still the same inspiring spiritual movement

Prabhupada was speaking of. Injustice was done, what solution you propose to

find reconsilation?

 

> do service,help us save the next generations from predetors,please come

> more to the temples,lead kirtans, give clasess, dont let a group of demons

> that attak you spoil the party,

 

You really mean what you say? Who should be the "demons" you are speaking

of?

 

> saves us too by opening our eyes to ignorance and politics,and...

[Guest guest]

> yes we have problems,but SP said ISKCON WITH ALL FAULTS I LOVE THEE,so you

> all gurukulis love it???

 

I wonder if ISKCON today is still the same inspiring spiritual movement

Prabhupada was speaking of. Injustice was done, what solution you propose to

find reconsilation?

 

> do service,help us save the next generations from predetors,please come

> more to the temples,lead kirtans, give clasess, dont let a group of demons

> that attak you spoil the party,

 

You really mean what you say? Who should be the "demons" you are speaking

of?

 

> saves us too by opening our eyes to ignorance and politics,and...

[Guest guest]

> Hari bol not the gurukulis are not affenders,some of them were victim of

> demons,and yes there is gonna many good things happening because of the

> gurukulis getting together and trying to fix so many problems that we have

> ,I hope they get more serius in SP order,what is the good thing to see

> ISKCON been dry up of laxmi,wile most of the youth,including myself are

> lazy and in maya not even chanting our rounds,living la vida loca with

> karmis,acting like sudras and melechas,not respecting SP

> instructions,ISKCON is for the next generations,I was listening to SP

> class he says dont leave the temple,dont leave tha asotiation of devotees

> why??because again you become a demon,rascal,as soon you leave the

> asotitation of devotees you become a demon again

 

Hare Krsna. Namaste. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

 

You seem very radical and fanatic in my eyes. I know some devotees who for

very good reasons have gone outside the temples and do not associate anymore

with the templedevotees (because they consider them - most of them - also

fanatic). If you like you can go on offending them, but please know: THEY

ARE CERTAINLY NO DEMONS OR RASCALS! If you would get to know them you would

perhaps be more peaceful and understanding and less offending. They are

still devotees trying to be honest to themselves and to live the kind of KC

that is possible for them instead of pretending to be perfect vaisnavas and

at the same time only hurting each other and themselves! These are things I

myself have seen and experienced in the temples, even though it's not so

very long that I'm in the movement compared to others. "Don't leave the

temple." What's that?? I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous! We HAVE TO leave

the temples in order to get our lives settled. Only this makes sense, and by

the way: this is also the vedic way. When Srila Prabhupada said "Don't leave

the temple" that was 30 years ago in America, all in the beginning, in a

whole different situation. He would certainly not say the same in the

present situation of the devotees.

 

And one other request to you, even though I am sure you intend only the

best, as all of us: Please leave alone the Gurukulis who just want justice.

Please don't hurt them even more by talking to them about Karma and trying

to make them have a bad conscience towards ISKCON. If ISKCON has to fail,

let it fail. Maybe it would even be good, so we would get the chance to

built up something new that is not artificial but based on true and honest

feelings between human beings. A new ISKCON.

 

Ys Vrajasundari dasi

[Guest guest]

> Hari bol not the gurukulis are not affenders,some of them were victim of

> demons,and yes there is gonna many good things happening because of the

> gurukulis getting together and trying to fix so many problems that we have

> ,I hope they get more serius in SP order,what is the good thing to see

> ISKCON been dry up of laxmi,wile most of the youth,including myself are

> lazy and in maya not even chanting our rounds,living la vida loca with

> karmis,acting like sudras and melechas,not respecting SP

> instructions,ISKCON is for the next generations,I was listening to SP

> class he says dont leave the temple,dont leave tha asotiation of devotees

> why??because again you become a demon,rascal,as soon you leave the

> asotitation of devotees you become a demon again

 

Hare Krsna. Namaste. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

 

You seem very radical and fanatic in my eyes. I know some devotees who for

very good reasons have gone outside the temples and do not associate anymore

with the templedevotees (because they consider them - most of them - also

fanatic). If you like you can go on offending them, but please know: THEY

ARE CERTAINLY NO DEMONS OR RASCALS! If you would get to know them you would

perhaps be more peaceful and understanding and less offending. They are

still devotees trying to be honest to themselves and to live the kind of KC

that is possible for them instead of pretending to be perfect vaisnavas and

at the same time only hurting each other and themselves! These are things I

myself have seen and experienced in the temples, even though it's not so

very long that I'm in the movement compared to others. "Don't leave the

temple." What's that?? I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous! We HAVE TO leave

the temples in order to get our lives settled. Only this makes sense, and by

the way: this is also the vedic way. When Srila Prabhupada said "Don't leave

the temple" that was 30 years ago in America, all in the beginning, in a

whole different situation. He would certainly not say the same in the

present situation of the devotees.

 

And one other request to you, even though I am sure you intend only the

best, as all of us: Please leave alone the Gurukulis who just want justice.

Please don't hurt them even more by talking to them about Karma and trying

to make them have a bad conscience towards ISKCON. If ISKCON has to fail,

let it fail. Maybe it would even be good, so we would get the chance to

built up something new that is not artificial but based on true and honest

feelings between human beings. A new ISKCON.

 

Ys Vrajasundari dasi

[Guest guest]

When SP said dont leave the temple do you think he is refering to the

phisical temple or the temple standart that we have to follow even out side

the temple I can see that you are very inmature ,I know that many gurukulis

are not gonna be very happy for what I said,SP said if we leave the

ssoatiation of devotees we become again,rascals,demons, is not

me,Baktisidhanta Sarasvati said that if anyone thinks that he is advancing

espiritually with out the assosiaion of devotees he is allucinaiting,so to

create a new ISKCON we have to have a spiritual standart,change comes from

inside,what you want to do?? destroy it and the create a new thing american

stile??we have to stop pointing fingers and embrace each other ,and serve

guru and krsna in bakti yoga,the reality is that we the devotees that leave

out side the temple are not in the same spirit of preaching of our beloved

SRILA PRABHUPADA, most of us are not doing nama hattas,congregation

preaching,cultivating karmi friends,not becomig infected by karmis vices,as

far as I know my life will have not meaning with out ISKCON ISKCON is a

trancendental boat that is croosing this miserable existence of material

life,you want to swim??be my guest,first of all I have a lots of gurukulis

friends actually I serve them at my home some times,one time I make a

wonderfull party for all of them,I love them more thet you imagen so dont try

to put the guilty trip on me,if I am a fanatic because with out the mercy of

ISKCON I cudnt live,so be it I guest I am,but the reality is that gurukulis

are starting in having family and kids, so instead of been stok in the past

why not just once and for all,do werever sue iskcon ,make trouble ,werever

but start getting involved in the future of ISKCON otherwise whats life for???

premananda goura

[Guest guest]

When SP said dont leave the temple do you think he is refering to the

phisical temple or the temple standart that we have to follow even out side

the temple I can see that you are very inmature ,I know that many gurukulis

are not gonna be very happy for what I said,SP said if we leave the

ssoatiation of devotees we become again,rascals,demons, is not

me,Baktisidhanta Sarasvati said that if anyone thinks that he is advancing

espiritually with out the assosiaion of devotees he is allucinaiting,so to

create a new ISKCON we have to have a spiritual standart,change comes from

inside,what you want to do?? destroy it and the create a new thing american

stile??we have to stop pointing fingers and embrace each other ,and serve

guru and krsna in bakti yoga,the reality is that we the devotees that leave

out side the temple are not in the same spirit of preaching of our beloved

SRILA PRABHUPADA, most of us are not doing nama hattas,congregation

preaching,cultivating karmi friends,not becomig infected by karmis vices,as

far as I know my life will have not meaning with out ISKCON ISKCON is a

trancendental boat that is croosing this miserable existence of material

life,you want to swim??be my guest,first of all I have a lots of gurukulis

friends actually I serve them at my home some times,one time I make a

wonderfull party for all of them,I love them more thet you imagen so dont try

to put the guilty trip on me,if I am a fanatic because with out the mercy of

ISKCON I cudnt live,so be it I guest I am,but the reality is that gurukulis

are starting in having family and kids, so instead of been stok in the past

why not just once and for all,do werever sue iskcon ,make trouble ,werever

but start getting involved in the future of ISKCON otherwise whats life for???

premananda goura

[Guest guest]

Demons are every were prabhu please im not trying to pisst off any body we

just have to be more serius is spiritual life,SP said a real friend is the

one that makes you remember krsna out there in the material world we are

always forgetting krsna so who are our real friends???the vaisnavas,so ISKCON

may have many problems,but there are many wonderfull souls serving SP RADHA

KRSNA and of all us by sacrifizing their lifes to the preaching of the

glories of GURU AND KRSNA,WHO i AM TO JUDGE???? please forgive me if I offend

any one all I know is that my niece got help from the children of krsna

fondation,others kids too I love devotees,ISKCON ,prssadam,kirtan,and all the

gift tha SP gave us,we have to protected,yes we have problems instead of

anger and revange mood,lets fix it as a family,and like SP together.

[Guest guest]

Demons are every were prabhu please im not trying to pisst off any body we

just have to be more serius is spiritual life,SP said a real friend is the

one that makes you remember krsna out there in the material world we are

always forgetting krsna so who are our real friends???the vaisnavas,so ISKCON

may have many problems,but there are many wonderfull souls serving SP RADHA

KRSNA and of all us by sacrifizing their lifes to the preaching of the

glories of GURU AND KRSNA,WHO i AM TO JUDGE???? please forgive me if I offend

any one all I know is that my niece got help from the children of krsna

fondation,others kids too I love devotees,ISKCON ,prssadam,kirtan,and all the

gift tha SP gave us,we have to protected,yes we have problems instead of

anger and revange mood,lets fix it as a family,and like SP together.

[Guest guest]

> When SP said dont leave the temple do you think he is refering to the

> phisical temple or the temple standart that we have to follow even out

> side the temple I can see that you are very inmature ,I know that many

> gurukulis are not gonna be very happy for what I said,SP said if we leave

> the ssoatiation of devotees we become again,rascals,demons, is not

> me,Baktisidhanta Sarasvati said that if anyone thinks that he is advancing

> espiritually with out the assosiaion of devotees he is allucinaiting,so to

> create a new ISKCON we have to have a spiritual standart,change comes from

> inside,what you want to do?? destroy it and the create a new thing

> american stile??we have to stop pointing fingers and embrace each other

> ,and serve guru and krsna in bakti yoga,the reality is that we the

> devotees that leave out side the temple are not in the same spirit of

> preaching of our beloved SRILA PRABHUPADA, most of us are not doing nama

> hattas,congregation preaching,cultivating karmi friends,not becomig

> infected by karmis vices,as far as I know my life will have not meaning

> with out ISKCON ISKCON is a trancendental boat that is croosing this

> miserable existence of material life,you want to swim??be my guest,first

> of all I have a lots of gurukulis friends actually I serve them at my home

> some times,one time I make a wonderfull party for all of them,I love them

> more thet you imagen so dont try to put the guilty trip on me,if I am a

> fanatic because with out the mercy of ISKCON I cudnt live,so be it I guest

> I am,but the reality is that gurukulis are starting in having family and

> kids, so instead of been stok in the past why not just once and for all,do

> werever sue iskcon ,make trouble ,werever but start getting involved in

> the future of ISKCON otherwise whats life for??? premananda goura

 

 

Better immature and open to learn than fanatic, dear friend.

Ys Vsd

[Guest guest]

> When SP said dont leave the temple do you think he is refering to the

> phisical temple or the temple standart that we have to follow even out

> side the temple I can see that you are very inmature ,I know that many

> gurukulis are not gonna be very happy for what I said,SP said if we leave

> the ssoatiation of devotees we become again,rascals,demons, is not

> me,Baktisidhanta Sarasvati said that if anyone thinks that he is advancing

> espiritually with out the assosiaion of devotees he is allucinaiting,so to

> create a new ISKCON we have to have a spiritual standart,change comes from

> inside,what you want to do?? destroy it and the create a new thing

> american stile??we have to stop pointing fingers and embrace each other

> ,and serve guru and krsna in bakti yoga,the reality is that we the

> devotees that leave out side the temple are not in the same spirit of

> preaching of our beloved SRILA PRABHUPADA, most of us are not doing nama

> hattas,congregation preaching,cultivating karmi friends,not becomig

> infected by karmis vices,as far as I know my life will have not meaning

> with out ISKCON ISKCON is a trancendental boat that is croosing this

> miserable existence of material life,you want to swim??be my guest,first

> of all I have a lots of gurukulis friends actually I serve them at my home

> some times,one time I make a wonderfull party for all of them,I love them

> more thet you imagen so dont try to put the guilty trip on me,if I am a

> fanatic because with out the mercy of ISKCON I cudnt live,so be it I guest

> I am,but the reality is that gurukulis are starting in having family and

> kids, so instead of been stok in the past why not just once and for all,do

> werever sue iskcon ,make trouble ,werever but start getting involved in

> the future of ISKCON otherwise whats life for??? premananda goura

 

 

Better immature and open to learn than fanatic, dear friend.

Ys Vsd

[Guest guest]

Dear Premananda Gaura

 

that you are calling other immature makes me laugh. What do you think

immature means - you throw out all these fanatical statements - things we

simply can´t take seriously. Immature actually means not being able to put

into practice what one has heard - that seems to define your position pretty

well. Maybe you are a nice guy, but please leave us alone.

ys madanalasa dd

[Guest guest]

Dear Premananda Gaura

 

that you are calling other immature makes me laugh. What do you think

immature means - you throw out all these fanatical statements - things we

simply can´t take seriously. Immature actually means not being able to put

into practice what one has heard - that seems to define your position pretty

well. Maybe you are a nice guy, but please leave us alone.

ys madanalasa dd

[Guest guest]

> When SP said dont leave the temple do you think he is refering to the

> phisical temple or the temple standart that we have to follow even out

> side the temple I can see that you are very inmature ,I know that many

> gurukulis are not gonna be very happy for what I said,SP said if we leave

> the ssoatiation of devotees we become again,rascals,demons, is not

> me,Baktisidhanta Sarasvati said that if anyone thinks that he is advancing

> espiritually with out the assosiaion of devotees he is allucinaiting,so to

> create a new ISKCON we have to have a spiritual standart,change comes from

> inside,what you want to do?? destroy it and the create a new thing

> american stile??we have to stop pointing fingers and embrace each other

> ,and serve guru and krsna in bakti yoga,the reality is that we the

> devotees that leave out side the temple are not in the same spirit of

> preaching of our beloved SRILA PRABHUPADA, most of us are not doing nama

> hattas,congregation preaching,cultivating karmi friends,not becomig

> infected by karmis vices,as far as I know my life will have not meaning

> with out ISKCON ISKCON is a trancendental boat that is croosing this

> miserable existence of material life,you want to swim??be my guest,first

> of all I have a lots of gurukulis friends actually I serve them at my home

> some times,one time I make a wonderfull party for all of them,I love them

> more thet you imagen so dont try to put the guilty trip on me,if I am a

> fanatic because with out the mercy of ISKCON I cudnt live,so be it I guest

> I am,but the reality is that gurukulis are starting in having family and

> kids, so instead of been stok in the past why not just once and for all,do

> werever sue iskcon ,make trouble ,werever but start getting involved in

> the future of ISKCON otherwise whats life for??? premananda goura

 

 

Better immature and open to learn than fanatic, dear friend.

Ys Vsd

[Guest guest]

> When SP said dont leave the temple do you think he is refering to the

> phisical temple or the temple standart that we have to follow even out

> side the temple I can see that you are very inmature ,I know that many

> gurukulis are not gonna be very happy for what I said,SP said if we leave

> the ssoatiation of devotees we become again,rascals,demons, is not

> me,Baktisidhanta Sarasvati said that if anyone thinks that he is advancing

> espiritually with out the assosiaion of devotees he is allucinaiting,so to

> create a new ISKCON we have to have a spiritual standart,change comes from

> inside,what you want to do?? destroy it and the create a new thing

> american stile??we have to stop pointing fingers and embrace each other

> ,and serve guru and krsna in bakti yoga,the reality is that we the

> devotees that leave out side the temple are not in the same spirit of

> preaching of our beloved SRILA PRABHUPADA, most of us are not doing nama

> hattas,congregation preaching,cultivating karmi friends,not becomig

> infected by karmis vices,as far as I know my life will have not meaning

> with out ISKCON ISKCON is a trancendental boat that is croosing this

> miserable existence of material life,you want to swim??be my guest,first

> of all I have a lots of gurukulis friends actually I serve them at my home

> some times,one time I make a wonderfull party for all of them,I love them

> more thet you imagen so dont try to put the guilty trip on me,if I am a

> fanatic because with out the mercy of ISKCON I cudnt live,so be it I guest

> I am,but the reality is that gurukulis are starting in having family and

> kids, so instead of been stok in the past why not just once and for all,do

> werever sue iskcon ,make trouble ,werever but start getting involved in

> the future of ISKCON otherwise whats life for??? premananda goura

 

 

Better immature and open to learn than fanatic, dear friend.

Ys Vsd

[Guest guest]

live you alone ,be independent,feel free,hire a teen wile he knows

everything,grow up

prema

[Guest guest]

live you alone ,be independent,feel free,hire a teen wile he knows

everything,grow up

prema

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhu:

 

If you have nothing better to say than criticize devotees, then please shut

up. May I humbly remind you that it is not proper Vaisnava behaviour or

ettiquette to take part in such things.

 

Paramananda Gaura Prabhu has a valid point to make, and I don't think we

should criticize him for his realizations -- which to me, at least, are

valid. In any case, I would like to see discussions on what Srila

Prabahupada said on this conference, please, rather than name-calling

between 'devotees'. In case you are unaware, there is a new conference

called Topical Discussions that has started where topics such as these

belong. So, in future, kindly post your Gurukula ideas to that conference

and let us try to delve into the nectar words of Srila Prabhupada on this

conference (Prabhupada Said). Thanks in advance!

 

Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,

 

Nayan.

[Guest guest]

Dear Prabhu:

 

If you have nothing better to say than criticize devotees, then please shut

up. May I humbly remind you that it is not proper Vaisnava behaviour or

ettiquette to take part in such things.

 

Paramananda Gaura Prabhu has a valid point to make, and I don't think we

should criticize him for his realizations -- which to me, at least, are

valid. In any case, I would like to see discussions on what Srila

Prabahupada said on this conference, please, rather than name-calling

between 'devotees'. In case you are unaware, there is a new conference

called Topical Discussions that has started where topics such as these

belong. So, in future, kindly post your Gurukula ideas to that conference

and let us try to delve into the nectar words of Srila Prabhupada on this

conference (Prabhupada Said). Thanks in advance!

 

Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,

 

Nayan.

[Guest guest]

At 6:06 PM +0100 10/18/99, COM: Nayan Ruparelia (BA) (GB) wrote:

> In case you are unaware, there is a new conference

>called Topical Discussions that has started where topics such as these

>belong. So, in future, kindly post your Gurukula ideas to that conference

>and let us try to delve into the nectar words of Srila Prabhupada on this

>conference (Prabhupada Said). Thanks in advance!

 

This is one of the reasons we should try to avoid cross-posting. As you can

see, this thread is being sent to 3 conferences and all I did was hit

"comment". While I agree that this is an appropriate topic for the TD

conference, I think it's equally appropriate for Varnasrama and the German

Free Forum (althoughperhaps not, since it is in English) where it is also

being discussed.

 

Therefore I'd like to ask any devotee who may want to move the discussion

to Topical Discussions, not to add any other conferences to his or her

text. Thank you.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

At 6:06 PM +0100 10/18/99, COM: Nayan Ruparelia (BA) (GB) wrote:

> In case you are unaware, there is a new conference

>called Topical Discussions that has started where topics such as these

>belong. So, in future, kindly post your Gurukula ideas to that conference

>and let us try to delve into the nectar words of Srila Prabhupada on this

>conference (Prabhupada Said). Thanks in advance!

 

This is one of the reasons we should try to avoid cross-posting. As you can

see, this thread is being sent to 3 conferences and all I did was hit

"comment". While I agree that this is an appropriate topic for the TD

conference, I think it's equally appropriate for Varnasrama and the German

Free Forum (althoughperhaps not, since it is in English) where it is also

being discussed.

 

Therefore I'd like to ask any devotee who may want to move the discussion

to Topical Discussions, not to add any other conferences to his or her

text. Thank you.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> > When SP said dont leave the temple do you think he is

> > refering to the phisical temple or the temple standart that

> > we have to follow even out side the temple I can see that you

> > are very inmature ,I know that many gurukulis are not gonna

> > be very happy for what I said,SP said if we leave the

> > ssoatiation of devotees we become again,rascals,demons, is

> > not me,Baktisidhanta Sarasvati said that if anyone thinks

> > that he is advancing espiritually with out the assosiaion of

> > devotees he is allucinaiting,so to create a new ISKCON we

> > have to have a spiritual standart,change comes from

> > inside,what you want to do?? destroy it and the create a new

> > thing american stile??we have to stop pointing fingers and

> > embrace each other ,and serve guru and krsna in bakti

> > yoga,the reality is that we the devotees that leave out side

> > the temple are not in the same spirit of preaching of our

> > beloved SRILA PRABHUPADA, most of us are not doing nama

 

> Better immature and open to learn than fanatic, dear friend.

 

Better to be fanatically dedicated to Srila Prabhupada's mission.

And better not to be open to learn from the wrong sources.

[Guest guest]

> > When SP said dont leave the temple do you think he is

> > refering to the phisical temple or the temple standart that

> > we have to follow even out side the temple I can see that you

> > are very inmature ,I know that many gurukulis are not gonna

> > be very happy for what I said,SP said if we leave the

> > ssoatiation of devotees we become again,rascals,demons, is

> > not me,Baktisidhanta Sarasvati said that if anyone thinks

> > that he is advancing espiritually with out the assosiaion of

> > devotees he is allucinaiting,so to create a new ISKCON we

> > have to have a spiritual standart,change comes from

> > inside,what you want to do?? destroy it and the create a new

> > thing american stile??we have to stop pointing fingers and

> > embrace each other ,and serve guru and krsna in bakti

> > yoga,the reality is that we the devotees that leave out side

> > the temple are not in the same spirit of preaching of our

> > beloved SRILA PRABHUPADA, most of us are not doing nama

 

> Better immature and open to learn than fanatic, dear friend.

 

Better to be fanatically dedicated to Srila Prabhupada's mission.

And better not to be open to learn from the wrong sources.

[Guest guest]

Vrajasundari wrote:

 

> You seem very radical and fanatic in my eyes. I know some

> devotees who for very good reasons have gone outside the

> temples and do not associate anymore with the templedevotees

> (because they consider them - most of them - also fanatic).

 

Although Premananda Gaura espresses himself in somewhat bombastic

terms I think we should still try and listen to what he has to

say. In my opinion he has made many valuable points and I think

that what he says is basically the truth, as it was taught to us

by Srila Prabhupada. It _is_ true that Srila Prabhupada told us

to never leave ISKCON. I can't even think of a reason good

enough to leave ISKCON. For instance, if one is not able for some

reason to coorperate with certain devotees in his yatra there is

always another yatra he can go to. I know for certain that the

most wonderful people I have met in my life I have met in ISKCON.

I know that I was saved by Srila Prabhupada's mission which is

ISKCON. I have so many friends in ISKCON. All my best friends are

in ISKCON. Now if there is child abuse and power-politics going

on among some members of ISKCON does that condemn the whole rest

of ISKCON? I don't think so. It is immature, emotional and

ignorant to only reflect on the bad things that is happening in

ISKCON and neglect all the good things.

 

Just for the sake of argument, even if the whole GBC is rotten,

which it certainly isn't, does that change the fact that ISKCON,

despite all the mistakes and abuse, is still spreading the

yuga-dharma all over the planet? Srila Prabhupada told us to

never leave ISKCON, he told us to stay together and work to

spread his mission. He said the greatest danger and the only

thing in fact that could stop ISKCON was if the devotees split up

into fractions and started fighting each-other. I find it

completely offensive when I hear that ISKCON is nothing but a

bunch of pedophiles and power-mongering sannyasies. I know you

don't say that, but that's what they say on the internet. In my

yatra ISKCON has always conducted itself very correctly. In

Denmark ISKCON enjoys a good reputation in the media and is

recognized by the academic community as a genuine Vaishnava

tradition. Here in Sweden where I live now there has been first

an ashram school and later a day school since 1980. It has been

the only guru-kula in Germany and Scandinavia in all that time

and it has not had a single instance of child-abuse.

 

When people say ISKCON is rotten I simply cannot see it. What is

the reason to leave the association of devotees? You say you know

devotees who has had very good reasons to leave the temple. What

are those reasons? In my 18 years as an ISKCON member I have not

seen a single devotee, including myself, step outside of the

association of devotees and be able to maintain the four

regulative principles. Surely one can live outside the temple

with his family without leaving the association with the other

devotees. To leave ISKCON, as I define it, means to leave the

practice of sadhana and begin to associate with non-devotees. To

go and join another spiritual society like the Gaudiya Math I

also consider leaving ISKCON, and Srila Prabhupada instructed us

to never leave ISKCON. So Premananda is not really being

fanatical (whatever that means), he is simply stressing the point

that we should not leave and split up into fractions, which is

according to Srila Prabhupada's desire. Are you saying that it is

fanatical to strictly try and adhere to Srila Prabhupada's

instructions? In that case I will rather be a fanatic. Not that I

am very good at following Srila Prabhupada's instructions but the

least I can do is keep trying.

 

> If

> you like you can go on offending them,

 

Offending who? I lookeed and I looked again, and I can't see

where he offended anyone. What do you mean?

 

> but please know: THEY

> ARE CERTAINLY NO DEMONS OR RASCALS!

 

Who are you talking about? The one's who left ISKCON and who have

become antagonistic towards ISKCON, or the ones who may have left

the temple but who are still maintaining spiritual principles and

associating with devotees? In the second case it is of course

offensive to call them rascals and demons, but it doesn't seem to

me that Premananda has done that.

 

>If you would get to know

> them you would perhaps be more peaceful and understanding and

> less offending. They are still devotees trying to be honest to

> themselves and to live the kind of KC that is possible for them

> instead of pretending to be perfect vaisnavas and at the same

> time only hurting each other and themselves!

 

In the ISKCON I grew up in, and surely I have met some people in

ISKCON I don't like, there has always been devotees I could turn

to for guidance and mutual friendship. ISKCON is not only the

GBC or the gurus or sannyasis. ISKCON is you and me and all the

other devotees as well. There are so many devotees in ISKCON who

are working selflessly to satisfy Srila Prabhupada. It is not

that I cannot detect any problems in ISKCON. I see them as well

as anyone. I also think we should seriously work to clean up

ISKCON and rectify the mistakes, but I just don't think the

solution is to become devided over these issues.

 

>These are things I

> myself have seen and experienced in the temples, even though

> it's not so very long that I'm in the movement compared to

> others.

 

That's right. You may have seen many things in ISKCON but your

experience is limited. It is also colored by the devotees you

associate with. I know in Germany many devotees are very

bewildered and bitter over what happended with Vishnupada (now

again Bob) and they have become influenced by his criticism of

the abuse of women and children in ISKCON, a popular bashing

point these days. In the Kali-yuga society things are degrading

fast and all kinds of horrible abuse of children and women are

every day facts of life. They don't even make it to the news

anymore. It is so common. How can it surprise anyone that these

things are happening in ISKCON, too?

 

"Don't leave the temple." What's that?? I'm sorry, but

> this is ridiculous! We HAVE TO leave the temples in order to

> get our lives settled.

 

Maybe you have to leave the temple premises, that I can

understand. But that doesn't mean you have to leave ISKCON.

ISKCON includes all kinds of devotees and congregation, all in

various situations.

 

>Only this makes sense, and by the way:

> this is also the vedic way. When Srila Prabhupada said "Don't

> leave the temple" that was 30 years ago in America, all in the

> beginning, in a whole different situation. He would certainly

> not say the same in the present situation of the devotees.

 

But he _would_ say, don't leave the devotees. And he _did_ say

never to leave ISKCON. Vishnupada used to stress this point as

well.

 

> And one other request to you, even though I am sure you intend

> only the best, as all of us: Please leave alone the Gurukulis

> who just want justice.

 

Well, if you ask me, I don't think it would have appealed to

Srila Prabhupada for the gurukulis to seek justice in a

court-room.

 

> Please don't hurt them even more by

> talking to them about Karma and trying to make them have a bad

> conscience towards ISKCON.

 

I agree that we should not hurt the gurukulis anymore. We should

give them all the help and support they need. As I see it this is

first and foremost the duty of the grihasthas and parents of the

children. It is not ISKCON as an institution that have hurt the

children, it is certain individuals within the institution who

have hurt them. Another point is also that I have personally

spoken to more gurukulis who have had a wonderful experience in

gurukula than I have spoken to those whose experience was bad. It

is not _all_ gurukulis who were mistreated and abused. That

doesn't mean of course that we should feel good about the bad

cases. We should definitely rectify the mistakes of ISKCON, I

know they have been many, and

ensure they don't happen again. But, to use a hack-neyed phrase,

we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath-water,

 

>If ISKCON has to fail, let it fail.

 

That's not a very positive attitude. How do you know whether

ISKCON is goig to fail or not? It is only a 30 year young

movement in the West where Kali-yuga is raging full power. How

can you expect there will be no opposition? If it is true what

Srila Prabhupada said, that his books shall be the law-books for

the next ten thousand years, 30 years is a very short time. Who

else but ISKCON can ensure that Srila Prabhupada's teaching will

remain intact for the benefit of coming generations? Who will do

it if not us, the first and second generations after Srila

Prabhupada? In a few years there will be no one left on the

planet who ever met Srila Prabhupada. Then what? If his

teachings are not established purely by then by a strong united

ISKCON the whole thing will just end up like in Christianity. It

will be over before it even began. Christianity lost because

Jesus had no qualified disciples to keep his teachings intact. I

don't think we should let the same thing happen to ISKCON.

 

> Maybe it would even be good, so we would get the chance to

> built up something new that is not artificial but based on true

> and honest feelings between human beings. A new ISKCON.

 

Why not just improve the old one? It is not all that bad.

 

Your servant

Jahnu das