Siksa guru as personal spiritual guide

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2423877 from COM]

>

> > On 20 Jun 1999, Srila Dasa wrote:

> >

> > > There's a whole world of advanced Vaisnavas outside our self-conceive

> sectarian walls.

> > >

>

> On 20 Jun 1999, Janesvara Dasa wrote:

> >

> > Name two.

> >

>

> How about me and my Welsh Terrier, Tomar -- who, by the way, is becoming

quite

> elderly in dog years.

 

Jaya! All glories to Sthita-dhi and Tomar Goswami!!

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

P.S. Has Tomar Maharaja related to you the pastimes of Sivananda Sen's dog?

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Srila (Dasa) ACBSP (Berkeley CA - USA)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2424582 from COM]

>

> There are many important issues that you bring up, but I fear that all

> discussion will be a waste of time unless we have sufficient respect for not

> only the subject (ie, proposing a dog as high-class association makes it a

> joke) but also for the participants.

 

HK dasi comments:

 

Guilty! Sorry, I'm guilty of frivolous behaviour. So I apologize. Thing is

with

me, I'm always suspecting that lots of people are great devotees. You see, I

allow for a few mistakes by my great devotees. Even Bhismadeva made a great

offence, and yet everyone including me considers him to be one of the greatest

devotees every. My strongest suspicion is that even within ISKCON there are

many

great devotees that people are not really aware of.

 

I'll name only 2 out of a dozen or so I could think of:

 

Nagaraja dasa at Back to Godhead

 

and Kaulini dasi at Gita-nagari

 

I know they are advanced. Very humble, too. And there's lots more where they

came from.

 

What about Aradhya dasi? What about Harakanta dasi? What about Jyotirmayi

dasi?

There are actually lots and lots of them. There are lots more men also, but I

didn't want to name anyone who is already a guru, and I don't want to name

anyone

on this conference. Also, I know a lot of women, just because that's who I

hang

out with a lot.

 

Maybe it's just because I'm so unadvanced, but every time I associate with

devotees like this, I become very inspired. Just to be around them makes me

feel

like the biggest fool and pretend devotee -- because they are so much more

sincere

and so much more advanced than I am. I think ISKCON's biggest problem is that

it

is letting too many valuable spiritual resources go under utilized.

 

If we would actually recognize more of these hidden devotees and make them

gurus,

I think that many of our current problems would disolve.

 

Of course, the first step would be to have a guru selection training program.

 

your servant,

 

Hare Krsna dasi

 

>

>

> Dasanudasa,

>

> Srila dasa

[Guest guest]

On 21 Jun 1999, Hare Krsna dasi wrote:

 

>

> P.S. Has Tomar Maharani related to you the pastimes of Sivananda Sen's dog?

>

>

 

 

Unfortunately for us fallen souls, she keeps her realizations internal.

 

Woof!

[Guest guest]

> It is a great offense to call an honest man a thief.

> From my own experience and observation, I can confidently state that you

> don't know WHO or WHAT you are talking about. Please be careful.

 

> For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and accepting

> a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided lack of

> humility, remorse and introspection.

 

> Dasanudasa,

> Srila dasa

 

I think we better leave it up to Krsna, to decide WHO was or is a bonafide

or NON bonafide spiritual master, otherwise it may happen that we dont know

WHO or WHAT we are talking about...

 

Dasanudasa

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

On June 22, Harsi das wrote:

> I think we better leave it up to Krsna, to decide WHO was or is a bonafide

or NON bonafide spiritual master, otherwise it may happen that we dont know

WHO or WHAT we are talking about...

 

I suppose my caution to Mahanidhi prabhu also extends to you, judging by your

former spiritual master (HKS). On that note, it would seem well warranted for

you to become a little more introspective and soul-searching as how you will

fill the vacuum in your lif that has now become more apparent since Harikesa

Swami's apostasy (spiritual demise).

 

In Upadesamrta, Srila Rupa Goswami enjoins a serious spiritual aspirant

(krsneti manasadrieyta...) to properly associate with devotees by learning how

to discriminate between the various classes of Vaisnavas -- kanistha adhikari,

madhyama adhikari and uttama-adhikari. In his purport to this critical verse,

Srila Prabhupada points out the importance of accepting the 1st class Vaisnava

as one's spiritual master. If one has mistaken a 2nd or 3rd class devotee

(kanisthas can also be very impressive) for a uttama, besides being

unfortunate, this indicates the candidate has not yet realized the practical

purport to Rupa Goswami's instruction. One therefore NEEDS the compassionate

association of a truly qualified sadhu to advance progressively on the path of

spiritual understanding.

 

In this connection, Rupa Goswami's instruction also applies to Srila

Prabhupada's disciples as well as to other disciples of ISKCON gurus who have

accepted a guru who is not sufficiently qualified, even that guru may not be

considered "fallen" by GBC standards. The GBC approval system certifies a

prospective initiating guru merely as "not fallen," but this says little about

his actual qualification to guide and act as sad-guru. Dynamic association

with highly advanced sadhus (siksa-gurus) is absolutely necessary at every

stage of our spiritual life, especially for neophyte practitioners.

 

Prabhupada's disciples are in no less of a perilous condition being bereft of

the manifest siksa-guru in their life. Welcome to the lonely hearts club! But

let's not remain there... Find highly advanced devotees and associate with

them.

 

As a final note, I always considered Harikesa Prabhu my friend and benefactor.

However, we can mince no words when it comes to a proper philosophical

understanding: Harikesa Prabhu is not, nor ever was, a genuinely qualified

(ie, "bonafide") spiritual master, a sad-guru, capable of delivering his

disciples to perfection (realizing their nitya-svarupa). That Harikesa

performed wonderful service, helping and inspiring thousands of followers

along the path and was a guru of sorts (eg, vatma-pradarsaka, etc.) no doubt.

But a *bonafide* guru?

We can definitively say not. Judge by the result: what is he doing now?

 

Speaking frankly,

 

Srila dasa

 

 

> > It is a great offense to call an honest man a thief.

> > From my own experience and observation, I can confidently state that you

don't know WHO or WHAT you are talking about. Please be careful.

 

> > For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and

accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided

lack of humility, remorse and introspection.

[Guest guest]

On 26 Jun 1999, Srila Dasa wrote:

 

>

> I suppose my caution to Mahanidhi prabhu also extends to you, judging by

your former spiritual master (HKS). On that note, it would seem well

warranted for you to become a little more introspective and soul-searching as

how you will fill the vacuum in your lif that has now become more apparent

since Harikesa Swami's apostasy (spiritual demise).

>

 

 

In my opinion, this attitude is extremely obnoxious -- and follwing humbly in

your line I plea I am only speaking the harsh truth. Who are we to judge the

vacume or non-vacume in the life of another Vaisnava? Who is to say those who

took diksa from one devotee had absolutely no sense of siksa with Srila

Prabhupada or any of his other senior men?

 

That we might take diksa or siksa from one devotee does not justify an

offensive attitude towards others. Have we learned nothing from our experience

within ISKCON in the early '80's?

 

 

 

>

> In this connection, Rupa Goswami's instruction also applies to Srila

> Prabhupada's disciples as well as to other disciples of ISKCON gurus who

have accepted a guru who is not sufficiently qualified, even that guru may not

be considered "fallen" by GBC standards.

>

 

 

I believe better to allow the prospective disciples judge such things for

themselves, based on guru/sadhu and sastra. Not that we proclaim everyone

unqualified excect for our favorite personal choice.

 

Fortunately, all these unqualified Prabhupada disciples had an uttama guru,

and thus they are surely saved. Without a doubt, getting the association of

such 'saved' devotees could be considered auspicious even by ISKCON's most

voracious critics.

 

 

 

> The GBC approval system certifies a prospective initiating guru merely as

"not fallen," but this says little about his actual qualification to guide and

act as sad-guru.

>

 

 

The GBC is not in the business of labeling the relationship between the

devotees and both Krsna and Srila Prabhupada as either 'pure' or 'impure'. But

it does appear to be an activity that you seem to maintain full enthusiasm

for. The guru/disciple relationship is both a personal and intimate exchange.

The GBC is not attempting to beaurocratize this most significant relationship.

 

On the other hand, the GBC has stated they will recognize such relationships

within the institution if at least a certain minimum standard of Vaisvava

behaviour is properly maintained. They are not presenting themselves as

bestowers of gurudom as if they held some exclusive franchise on behalf of

Lord Caitanya.

 

 

 

> Dynamic association

> with highly advanced sadhus (siksa-gurus) is absolutely necessary at every

stage of our spiritual life, especially for neophyte practitioners.

>

 

 

I am concerned that you appear to want to make it your mission to convince

those of us working within ISKCON that we are not getting spiritual

nourishment within our current association. It almost appears as if you wish

to become our orginizational big brother. Some may be satisfied, others may

look elsewhere, that is okay by me. But a certain righteous canvassing

mentality is somewhat awkward to place within the confines of Vaisvava

ettiquete.

 

 

> Prabhupada's disciples are in no less of a perilous condition being bereft

of the manifest siksa-guru in their life. Welcome to the lonely hearts club!

But let's not remain there... Find highly advanced devotees and associate

with them.

>

 

 

First, we minimize both Prabhupada and the Vaisnava siddhanta to say one is

bereft of his spiritual masters association simply due to a physical absense.

Even when Prabhuada was on the planet, expecially during his later years while

in the West, he was not so readily available in his physical form. He did say

he was available to his disciples by other means.

 

That you find yourself in Prabhupada's association with someone who is not

Srila Prabhupada is your personal experience, apparently. I find it hard to

believe Prabhupada is limitting his association through only one such venue.

It is definitely not my experience.

 

 

 

> Harikesa Prabhu is not, nor ever was, a genuinely qualified

> (ie, "bonafide") spiritual master, a sad-guru, capable of delivering his

disciples to perfection (realizing their nitya-svarupa). That Harikesa

performed wonderful service, helping and inspiring thousands of followers

along the path and was a guru of sorts (eg, vatma-pradarsaka, etc.) no doubt.

But a *bonafide* guru?

>

 

 

There are many levels from which devotees can offer instructions. That

Harikesa was not an infallible pure devotee was apparent to many long before

the current debacle. That he attempted to serve Srila Prabhupada according to

his utmost capacity was also always appreciated by the senior Vaisnavas. Krsna

remains God, and Prabhupada remains the founder/acarya of this particular

ISKCON institution.

 

 

> We can definitively say not. Judge by the result: what is he doing now?

>

>

 

Let Prabhupada judge in the ultimate sense. Harikesa Prabhu is his initiated

disciple, not ours.

 

ys,

 

Sthita

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhu wrote on 26.06.99

 

>> On June 22, Harsi das wrote:

>> I think we better leave it up to Krsna, to decide WHO was or is a bonafide

>> or NON bonafide spiritual master, otherwise it may happen that we dont know

>> WHO or WHAT we are talking about...

 

> I suppose my caution to Mahanidhi prabhu also extends to you, judging by

> your former spiritual master (HKS). On that note, it would seem well

> warranted for you to become a little more introspective and soul-searching

> as how you will fill the vacuum in your life that has now become more

> apparent since Harikesa Swami's apostasy (spiritual demise).

 

Since Krishna is the Ultimate source of knowledge and judgement, and not

merely our own subjective criticism, maybe you would be so kind to tell us a

vers by Him which supports your stantpoint in this matter, otherwise my above

statement still remains valid.

 

> In Upadesamrta, Srila Rupa Goswami enjoins a serious spiritual aspirant

> (krsneti manasadrieyta...) to properly associate with devotees by learning

> how to discriminate between the various classes of Vaisnavas -- kanistha

> adhikari, madhyama adhikari and uttama-adhikari. In his purport to this

> critical verse, Srila Prabhupada points out the importance of accepting the

> 1st class Vaisnava as one's spiritual master. If one has mistaken a 2nd or

> 3rd class devotee (kanisthas can also be very impressive) for a uttama,

> besides being unfortunate, this indicates the candidate has not yet realized

> the practical purport to Rupa Goswami's instruction. One therefore NEEDS

> the compassionate association of a truly qualified sadhu to advance

> progressively on the path of spiritual understanding.

 

Maybe or maybe not, is only a Uttama adhikari a bonafide spiritual master?

I guess than we can forget about taking initiation from a spiritual master in

ISKCON. Or forget about liberation from the bondage of birth and death until

a bonafide utama adhikari like Srila Prabhupada apears again. What makes Srila

Prabhupada a uthama adhikari? Just an inocent question.

 

> In this connection, Rupa Goswami's instruction also applies to Srila

> Prabhupada's disciples as well as to other disciples of ISKCON gurus who

> have accepted a guru who is not sufficiently qualified, even that guru may

> not be considered "fallen" by GBC standards. The GBC approval system

> certifies a prospective initiating guru merely as "not fallen," but this

> says little about his actual qualification to guide and act as sad-guru.

 

On what basis do you judge the qualifications of a "bonafide" or "sufficiently

qualified" guru? If a guru teaches acording to the vedic standarts, is it not

up to his disciples to decide if they find him to be bonafide or sufficiently

qualified?

 

> Dynamic association with highly advanced sadhus (siksa-gurus) is absolutely

> necessary at every stage of our spiritual life, especially for neophyte

> practitioners.

 

No doubt about it. What is your definition of "highly adavanced sadhus"?

 

> Prabhupada's disciples are in no less of a perilous condition being bereft

> of the manifest siksa-guru in their life. Welcome to the lonely hearts club!

> But let's not remain there... Find highly advanced devotees and associate

> with them.

 

I dont feel lonely, rather I feel Krsnas presence everywhere. And highly

advanced devotees I find are also in this conference. I apreciate you also and

like your association on COM, of course I asociate privately also with other

highly advanced devotees, some are also spiritual masters and have their

disciples.

 

> As a final note, I always considered Harikesa Prabhu my friend and

> benefactor.

> However, we can mince no words when it comes to a proper philosophical

> understanding: Harikesa Prabhu is not, nor ever was, a genuinely qualified

> (ie, "bonafide") spiritual master, a sad-guru, capable of delivering his

> disciples to perfection (realizing their nitya-svarupa).

 

Since you dont back up your statements with any versis from Krsna, guru, sadhu

or sastra, which can be aplyd to him, I cannot but conclude that this is your

personal subjective criticism wich in this case has no value whatsoever for

me.

 

> That Harikesa performed wonderful service, helping and inspiring thousands

< of followers along the path and was a guru of sorts (eg, vatma-pradarsaka,

> etc.) no doubt. But a *bonafide* guru?

> We can definitively say not. Judge by the result: what is he doing now?

 

Yes judje by the result: what is he doing now? Still Chanting Hare Krisna and

worshiping Krsna, or do you have some other informations? Then let me know it.

 

Ys

Harsi das

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Speaking frankly,

 

> Srila dasa

 

 

> > It is a great offense to call an honest man a thief.

> > From my own experience and observation, I can confidently state that you

don't know WHO or WHAT you are talking about. Please be careful.

 

> > For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and

accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided

lack of humility, remorse and introspection.

[Guest guest]

Srila prabhu wrote:

 

>For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and

>accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided

>lack of humility, remorse and introspection.

 

Dear Srila Prabhu,

 

I was greatly saddened to read the text above. It does not fit with the

compassionate person I know you to be. How many of us had a *clue* about

how to judge a spiritual master when we first came in contact with

devotees? I would have expected you to take a much humbler position and to

admit that you were simply incredibly lucky to have joined ISKCON while

Prabhupada was still on the planet. Let's not be so judgmental of each

other.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> Srila prabhu wrote:

>

> >For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and

> >accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a

> >decided lack of humility, remorse and introspection.

>

> Dear Srila Prabhu,

>

> I was greatly saddened to read the text above. It does not fit with the

> compassionate person I know you to be.

 

Personaly I did not read this comment of Srila Prabhu as an insult. When

Jayatirtha left, I also realised that I had made a great mistake, and did

feel very sorry for myself, as well as (at least initialy) sorry for him.

Later I realised that Jayatirtha had probabaly NEVER *really* understood

Krsna Consciousness. In retrospect, hearing the comments HKS made about

Srila Prabhupada, does make me wonder if he really understood also.

 

Surrendering in spiritual life is often a very complicated task, and our

motivations, and evolution (or devolution) of consciousness just adds to the

complexity. Yes if we are simple, it can be simple. But looking at people

like Jayatirtha, Kirtananda, Harikesa etc. we see a lot of complexity. They

did great service undoubtedly, but then they really let people down too,

people who had the highest expectations of them, people who they lead to

beleive should have the highest expectations.

 

So It would seem appropriate that someone whose guru fell down, should

feel, humility, remorse and introspection. Hey, I almost forgot, arent we

all supposed to be possessed of these qualities all the time? What to speak

of when we face a major reversal?

 

Sometimes I feel that we so readily identify ourselves as being rightous

perceivers of the truth, that we fail to remember that real sainthood is

characterised by great humility, great remorse at our being here in this

world of sinners, and great introspection at our perceived failure to

actualy be saints.

 

We are so ready to set the guns blazing on senior people whom we have very

little actual personal realisation of their position, other than popular

hearsay. Part of the varnasrama system is to recognise and act with humility

towards ones seniors. If we dont do that then varnasrama can never be

upheld. Even if those seniors may deviate, OK we do not have to take

shelter, but still we offer respect.

 

Did many of our leaders not commit a grave aparadha when they insulted

Pradyumna Prabhu? Will they not have to pay the price?

 

At this time in my life (June 99) I am personaly (for what it is worth) not

advocating that anyone leave ISKCON to take shelter of another Gaudiya

Vaisnava. Surely Srila Prabhupada warned us not to take shelter outside?

Hearing from elevated sadhus is to be reccomended. But if a supposed sadhu,

is after many followers, so much so that they resort to pilfering them from

Srila Prabhupadas movement and reinitiating them, obviously that is not

good. I am not saying that anyone in particular is doing this, I dont know.

But if someone is doing this and we personaly see this, then we know to

offer respect, but stay away.

 

I would personaly advise, that if we have not ourselves reached actual

sainthood (and if we had we would refrain from bandying about unverified and

dubious information as actual fact) and if we are not interested in

personaly verifying, then it would be best to remain silent rather than cast

aspersions on the position of other senior people.

 

Some in ISKCON seem to sometimes lack the kind of gravity that Srila Prabhu

reminds us we should have. The camaraderie of years together, has made us

somewhat irreverant even towards one another, what to speak of perceived

outsiders. He is right we do have to be very careful, especialy when rumours

that what we sometimes hear on the ISKCON grapvine, come from ill motivated

sources.

 

As long as leaders maintain their positions out of pride, we will have to be

very wary.

 

In any case, the fact remains that we get the association we desire. As long

as we do not desire the association of pure devotees, we will not get it.

Even some of Srila Prabhupadas disciples, as has been pointed out, often did

not take advantage of the fact that they were initiated by the purest type

of devotee. They basicaly wasted their opportunity.

 

If we really desire a pure devotee, the Lord will manifest one for us, as he

promises to deliver anyone who aspires genuinely for his shelter.

 

> I would have expected you to take a much humbler position and

> to admit that you were simply incredibly lucky to have joined ISKCON while

> Prabhupada was still on the planet. Let's not be so judgmental of each

> other.

 

While there is no doubt that Srila Prabhu is one lucky prabhu in having

received initation from Srila Prabhupada, this does not mean that we cannot

also be as lucky. Pure devotees are all very very special, and if we really

do want one, Krsna will send one. So Srila Prabhu, and all his godbrothers,

do not have the monopoly on luck.

 

We get what we really really want, really.

 

YS

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jun 1999, Samba das wrote:

 

 

>

> Some in ISKCON seem to sometimes lack the kind of gravity that Srila Prabhu

reminds us we should have.

>

 

 

Curiously, some of those who might consider themselves outside sometimes seem

to be full of themselves with it.

 

 

>

> We get what we really really want, really.

>

 

 

No doubt about it. So we need to be careful to become good followers, and not

simply in name. There is more to it all than feeling we've joined a pure

devotee's 'gentleman's club'.

 

ys,

 

Sthita-dhi

[Guest guest]

Samba wrote:

>We get what we really really want, really.

 

That seems like another very harsh statement. Is that how you explain the

horrible child abuse, domestic violence and murders that have happened in

ISKCON too?

 

One of the reasons I found KC philosophy so attractive originally, was that

it could explain why "bad things happen to good people" - but the reason I

read had nothing to do with *wanting* them to happen. It was your past

karma.

 

There were so many reasons people took initiation from certain gurus,

especially in the early zonal acarya days. Peer pressure, pressure by

authorities, *no choice* of guru (combined with a belief that you could

not go Home unless you were initiated) etc. are but three. Let's not be

so judgmental of others. Although I pray it won't be the case, tomorrow it

may be your turn to experience the same thing. I for one will assume that

watching your guru fall is not something very many devotees "really,

really, really" wanted, just like those children did not want to be beaten

black and blue, anallly raped, forced to wear their urinated-upon underwear

on their head, having cockroaches stuck up their noses, being tied up like

dogs, eat vomited foods, having their arms broken, or being yelled at.

 

Please lets have some compassion here.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jun 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> Samba wrote:

> >We get what we really really want, really.

>

> That seems like another very harsh statement. Is that how you explain the

> horrible child abuse, domestic violence and murders that have happened in

> ISKCON too?

 

 

 

I don't think that is what Samba Prabhu was implying, knowing him what little

I do. I am sure he will clarify his statement soon.

 

 

 

> There were so many reasons people took initiation from certain gurus,

> especially in the early zonal acarya days. Peer pressure, pressure by

> authorities, *no choice* of guru (combined with a belief that you could

> not go Home unless you were initiated) etc. are but three. Let's not be

> so judgmental of others.

 

 

 

We have a right to judge our leaders and make changes through civil

involvement and group action (voting).

 

 

 

>Although I pray it won't be the case, tomorrow it

> may be your turn to experience the same thing. I for one will assume that

> watching your guru fall is not something very many devotees "really,

> really, really" wanted, just like those children did not want to be beaten

> black and blue, anallly raped, forced to wear their urinated-upon underwear

> on their head, having cockroaches stuck up their noses, being tied up like

> dogs, eat vomited foods, having their arms broken, or being yelled at.

 

 

 

No victim can be held responsible for such crimes regardless of their "karma"

considerations; that is between them and the Lord. The criminals who

perpetrated such acts must be held accountable and retribution must be

administered by proper authority now and must be instituted to avoid all

future attempts.

 

Bad leaders are responsible for such things. They have to accept a portion of

the karma of all of their citizens. If they do not manage properly their

karmic reaction is that much heavier. Conspiratorial or even passive

supporters and knowing-but-ignoring leaders and co-leaders are just as

responsible and will "pay" one way or another - either before they go to

Yamaraja's court which is the Vedic program of compassion or in Yama's court

upon death.

 

ISKCON stands to suffer terribly at the hands of ruthless legal titans because

they have weakly failed to root out the criminals and blind supporters of

these crimes. There is no greater evidence of their arrogance and defenseless

ignorance when they continue to allow such criminals into positions of

authority or praise like Bhavananda in Sydney. This will be taken by legal

authorities of proof of ISKCON's inability to govern itself and its innocent

and defenseless members.

[Guest guest]

>

> Personaly I did not read this comment of Srila Prabhu as an insult. When

> Jayatirtha left, I also realised that I had made a great mistake, and did

 

Do you think that your personal realization about your own life

is ought to be "also" the realization of everybody else?

That Jayatirtha is Harikesa?

That Samba is Mahanidhi?

That Samba's life is Mahanidhi's life?

 

What do we know about other peoples' life mistakes? Neither

you nor Srila das have absolutely NO idea what could come out

of me if I haven't done as I have done, 14 years ago. Not even

the *slightest* idea. But you got to instruct. What the grave

"mistake" I ought not to commit in my life. But you know

just NOTHING about my life condition from 14 years ago.

 

When shall we stop playing the role of the Supersoul in the

people's hearts? Can't do anything good by judging their lifes

and the life "mistakes" here, so leave it. Leave it to God.

Don't play with it.

 

 

 

>

> So It would seem appropriate that someone whose guru fell down, should

> feel, humility, remorse and introspection. Hey, I almost forgot, arent we

> all supposed to be possessed of these qualities all the time? What to

> speak of when we face a major reversal?

 

 

I nevertheless preserve the right for myself to differentiate

between an actual wellwisher of mine and somebody who is using

this most unfortunate incident of my life as simply the mean of

securing the position for himself when debating me, to shut me

down on that way.

(Please do not try to convince me that I am wrong in my perceptions

here.)

 

I do not want to listen about "humility" and "introspection"

from the people who do not even respect other people's individuality

and integrity. What was the mistake of my life, what was my poor

judgment, what is the expectation from me to behave now alike,...

All these is NOT the subject for Srila das (or anybody here)

to chew on it here in the public, for the sake of wining some

argument, or for any other sake anyway.

 

If someone honestly wants to point to me my grave mistakes

and help me in that regard, he will approach me -- PRIVATELY.

He will not splash his "siddhanta" on my nose in public, in a

screaming mood. And then right away the next one who happened

to have "HKS" next to his name (Harsi das) got to get the similar

treatment simply because he did not agree with whatever Srila das

thought he ought to. I am more than sure if I would proclaim

here how I am ready to feel up my "obvious vacuum" with Narayana

Maharaja, Srila would jubilantly shower me with the flowers,

instead. A parody, not more than that.

 

"Humility". Beat the people's head with it.

 

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

On 29 Jun 1999, Mahanidhi das wrote:

 

 

>

> "Humility". Beat the people's head with it.

>

 

 

 

Allah Akhbar!

[Guest guest]

> [Text 2433930 from COM]

>

> Srila prabhu wrote:

>

> >For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and

> >accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a decided

> >lack of humility, remorse and introspection.

 

It's the sampradaya that is important. Over emphasis on what an individual

guru

may or may not have been or what he/she may or may not be now, seems to me to

be

missing that essesntial point. The connection made at initiation is to the

guru

as representative of the sampradaya, and is not limited to the guru as

individual.

[Guest guest]

> Samba wrote:

> >We get what we really really want, really.

>

> That seems like another very harsh statement. Is that how you explain the

> horrible child abuse, domestic violence and murders that have happened in

> ISKCON too?

 

Surely this is just basic stuff. I mean everyone got on Glen Hoddle's case

(the British football coach) for saying that handicapped people are

handicapped because of their karma. So obviously no one wants to be crippled

or any of those other things you mentioned. We have desires, and we have

karma. We get both simultaneously. Sometimes we get passing desires that

come and go. But then we have yearnings. Depending on what we yearn for,

what we really want long term, the lord through his agencies will try to

accomodate. The Lord sees where we are at, and because he wants us to be

happy he awards us bodies or situations where we can try to be happy. When

at last he sees that we desire him, he sends us the means to reach him.

>

> One of the reasons I found KC philosophy so attractive originally, was

> that it could explain why "bad things happen to good people" - but the

> reason I read had nothing to do with *wanting* them to happen. It was

> your past karma.

 

Exactly, but both are there, its our entire problem. We desire the wrong

things. And by acting on the wrong desires we get more karma and it goes on.

Intellectualy we may accept Krsna Consciousness. but then desire gets in the

way, and we often find ourselves desiring sense gratification.

 

> There were so many reasons people took initiation from certain gurus,

> especially in the early zonal acarya days. Peer pressure, pressure by

> authorities, *no choice* of guru (combined with a belief that you could

> not go Home unless you were initiated) etc. are but three. Let's not be

> so judgmental of others.

 

I agree we should not be judgemental. But we should be humble, it is the

most important prerequisite for spiritual advancement. So while I would

hesitate to judge others, we can make a blanket statement that we should all

be humble, of course it cant be forced. Humility is very necesary for

spiritual life. A person who is actualy humble does not seek to defend

himself. Was it Jagganatha das Babaji who surrounded himself with fish bones

and alcohol bottles so people would thing he was a materialist?

 

So we were pressured into taking gurus, by people who wanted to cheat us. I

mean why else would they coerce us? Not necesarily all the devotees, but

certainly some of them had alterior motivations. But Prabhupada explains to

us about cheaters and the cheated. I mean Krsna is infallible right, he cant

be cheated. And he wants to help us. So if we were really sincere, then

nothing could have gotten in our way. If something did get in the way, how

could that be, unless we did not really want to surrender all the way. Maybe

we wanted spiritual life without the full surrender. Bhagavan once said "if

its not a thousand dollars (daily collection) its not devotional service".

So maybe some thought that you could go home for $1000 a day. Spritual life

is not that cheap.

 

> Please lets have some compassion here.

 

The things you described were certainly horrific. And of course completely

unwanted. They are obviously also karmic reactions, as nothing happens

without a reason. But that does not mean the the perpetrators do not have to

pay, they do, they are also guilty.

 

We are all guilty in this material world. Its a prison. To try to pretend

its not is simply sentimental. Compassion is when we remind each other where

we are really at. Compassion is the sadhus knife wielding, cutting through

the illusion, cutting the hard knot of material attachment.

 

Unfortunately this may be another case where the cold stark reality of text,

belies the motivation and mood of the writer. Mahanidhi prabhu sometimes

seems to think I am personaly attacking him.

 

I realy yearn for a time when we can actualy have a varnasrama community

where we can personaly interact, and prove our sincerity by actions rather

than words. Then maybe there would be little use for these cold impersonal

machines to communicate.

 

I agree compassion is needed, and we need to overlook each others faults.

But at the same time, the philosophy must be upheld, and we have to know

where the bottom line is, even if we cannot reach it yet. This conference

must surely promote both understandings.

 

Ys Samba das

[Guest guest]

Madhava Gosh prabhu wrote:

 

> It's the sampradaya that is important. Over emphasis on what an individual

> guru may or may not have been or what he/she may or may not be now, seems to

> me to be missing that essential point. The connection made at initiation is

> to the guru as representative of the sampradaya, and is not limited to the

> guru as individual.

 

A very good and conclusive statement. All glories to you and your inteligence.

 

Ys

Harsi das

[Guest guest]

> It's the sampradaya that is important. Over emphasis on what an individual

guru may or may not have been or what he/she may or may not be now, seems to

me to be missing that essesntial point. The connection made at initiation is

to the guru as representative of the sampradaya, and is not limited to the

guru as individual.

 

Over-emphasis on ANYTHING to the detriment of something else is cause for

developing misconceptions and going astray. I think this would be

self-evident. The issue at stake here though is the relative value of a guru

or sadhu. That of course, depends on the time, person and circumstances.

 

As a basic PRINCIPLE, however, the bona fide *guru* or advanced *sadhu* is

supposed to be the LIVING REPRESENTATIVE of the sampradaya. Without proper

and bonafide representatives, the SAMPRADAYA is DEAD or UNMANIFEST, to one

degree or another. It may be somehow or another surviving or continuing in

the form of low-level vaidhi-bhakti, but it is not expanding in a dynamic way.

When Mahaprbahu was present with HIs associates, they

performed, *prema-sankirtana.* In a similar way, I don't think we can compare

what is going on now in ISKCON to the spiritual energy generated in SP's

presence.

 

The association (ie, LIVING with them) and presence in this world of empowered

and high-class Vaisnavas makes a tremendous difference.

 

What do you think?

 

 

Srila dasa

[Guest guest]

On 28 Jun 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> Srila prabhu wrote:

> >For someone as yourself who made the grave error of mistaking and

> >accepting a NON bona fide guru for a spiritual master, you display a

decided lack of humility, remorse and introspection.

>

> Dear Srila Prabhu,

> I was greatly saddened to read the text above. It does not fit with the

compassionate person I know you to be. How many of us had a *clue* about how

to judge a spiritual master when we first came in contact with

> devotees? I would have expected you to take a much humbler position and to

admit that you were simply incredibly lucky to have joined ISKCON while

Prabhupada was still on the planet. Let's not be so judgmental of each other.

 

Thank you for your kind and well-meaning feedback. I always take your words

seriously. I am also sorry if my above statement offends anyone. However, I

think it needs to be seen in the context it was made. If I were to sometime

see you chastizing your son, wouldn't it be a false conclusion to categorize

you as a stern or mean parent? Sometimes there is a need for strong words when

the situation is serious enough to call for it, no?

 

Lord Balarama is generally compassionate and forgiving, but he still killed

Romaharsana with a straw. So generally, Balalrama does not go around killing

people with straws.

 

I am certainly not comparable to Lord Balarama, but when the situation arises,

I see it as my service to refute any STRAW-man arguments of hypocrisy and

sadhu-ninda as much I possess the knowledge and understanding to do so. When

Mahanidhi Prabhu, like Romaharsan, began to disrespect a vastly superior

personality in a public forum (here on VAD), heedless of his own precarious

condition (having chosen an un-bonafide diksa guru and now without one), the

hypocrisy of his position becomes immediately apparent. He was therefore

begging for an appropriately stern response. It was my duty to reply.

 

The medicine should match the disease. I might have been able to phrase it

better or administered it with greater tact, but strong words were required.

Is your chastising of your children always as pleasant as the Vedic hymns?

 

Forgive me for the natural defects in my presentation. But please try to see

things in context.

 

Dasanudasa,

 

Srila dasa

[Guest guest]

Holy Cow guys!

Hey, let's all go outside in the nice warm sun for a while and plant a few

seeds- and see what comes up. Maybe even something we could offer to Krsna.

There's alot of mercy to be had living life on the land and it really gives

one a perspective about what is really important in one's life. Tomatos first,

then cucumbers, right? Someone said we should all tend our own gardens and

pull our own weeds. Sound advice. Anyways, I think the Siska Guru would make a

splendid spiritual guide, Godbless, and Haribol!!

[Guest guest]

>

> I am certainly not comparable to Lord Balarama, but when the situation

> arises, I see it as my service to refute any STRAW-man arguments of

> hypocrisy and sadhu-ninda as much I possess the knowledge and

> understanding to do so. When Mahanidhi Prabhu, like Romaharsan, began to

> disrespect a vastly superior personality in a public forum (here on VAD),

> heedless of his own precarious condition (having chosen an un-bonafide

> diksa guru and now without one), the hypocrisy of his position becomes

> immediately apparent. He was therefore begging for an appropriately stern

> response. It was my duty to reply.

 

So you have finally exposed here my "STRAW-man arguments" to

defeat so soundly, loudly and happily -- the fall down of Harikesa

das! He is still a "gold mine", isn't he? Can be exploited even

when closed down and dead. Even his bones are still good to

chew on.

 

So, I (along with the couple of thousands of others) am not even

a sudra, having no diksa-guru, never having any bona-fide guru,

no connection to Srila Prabhupada and the Guru Parampara ever

being there anyway, in short -- no real identity... So, "Balarama"

has mercifully exposed the hypocritical status of such a creature

to the assembled sadhus... He couldn't help but use his straw-blade

to cut off the head of that hypocritical nonsense who dared to speak

infront "Balarama" and the assembly...

 

Keep cutting off the heads around you, Srila. When you remain

the only one head speaking, then you can establish anything

you say as an undisputable fact and truth... Well, after all

this is your duty, being pure brahminical class of this society.

 

"My way or... a straw-blade guillotine"

 

 

 

das

 

(it's starting getting funny like this, folk... got no status nor

position among the holy ISCKONities, got no head even anymore... so

relaxing)

 

 

PS. to "Balarama":

Would it be any satisfying if I (and 2000 of Harikesa's "initiated

disciples") would take the initiation from some of the current ISCKON

preachers/gurus RIGHT NOW? I mean, Narayana Maharaja said that all

sincere devotees have already left ISCKON, and that all are falling

down now (sannyasis, gurus, everybody..). So, frankly, what would be

then the practical difference? Any use of such a step? Please tell us

*all* what to do. Without any hypocrisy, with an appropriately stern

response.... It is your duty to reply.. if you don't mind me to remind

you. You are a brahmana.

..

[Guest guest]

> As a final note, I always considered Harikesa Prabhu my friend and

> benefactor. However, we can mince no words when it comes to a proper

> philosophical understanding: Harikesa Prabhu is not, nor ever was, a

> genuinely qualified (ie, "bonafide") spiritual master, a sad-guru, capable

> of delivering his disciples to perfection (realizing their nitya-svarupa).

> That Harikesa performed wonderful service, helping and inspiring thousands

> of followers along the path and was a guru of sorts (eg, vatma-pradarsaka,

> etc.) no doubt. But a *bonafide* guru?

> We can definitively say not. Judge by the result: what is he doing now?

>

> Speaking frankly,

>

> Srila dasa

 

 

A guru of whatever category cannot be anything but bonafide.

Have you realized your nitya-svarupa? If not, does that mean Srila

Prabhupada is not bonafide? Of course not. What do you know if amongst

former Harikesa Swamis disciple some may have realized theirs? How can you

tell? If a fruittree stops giving fruit, does that mean it was never a

fruittree?

 

PAMHO. AGTSP.

 

respectfully yours

Trayimaya dasa, former disciple of former Harikesa Swami.

[Guest guest]

>

> As a basic PRINCIPLE, however, the bona fide *guru* or advanced *sadhu* is

> supposed to be the LIVING REPRESENTATIVE of the sampradaya.

 

Thus Srila Prabhupada is not anymore representing sampradaya,

and his initiated disciples in PRINCIPLE got no connection with

the sampradaya, since they got no LIVING REPRESENTATIVE.

 

Thus Srila Prabhupada is getting out the "picture"...

 

 

> Without

> proper and bonafide representatives, the SAMPRADAYA is DEAD or UNMANIFEST,

> to one degree or another.

> It may be somehow or another surviving or

> continuing in the form of low-level vaidhi-bhakti, but it is not expanding

> in a dynamic way. When Mahaprbahu was present with HIs associates, they

> performed, *prema-sankirtana.* In a similar way, I don't think we can

> compare what is going on now in ISKCON to the spiritual energy generated

> in SP's presence.

>

 

.... And thus Narayana Maharaja is coming into the "picture", as the

necessity for that LIVING REPRESENTATIVE of the sampradaya in

ISCKON. The idea being that the SAMPRADAYA is DEAD or UNMANIFETSED,

to one degree or another, due to the very departure of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

> The association (ie, LIVING with them) and presence in this world of

> empowered and high-class Vaisnavas makes a tremendous difference.

>

> What do you think?

>

 

You must be right, Srila prabhu, what else? As you have just

pointed out, ISCKON with merely continuing in the form of low-level

vaidhi, due to the departure of Srila Prabhupada, cannot fulfill the

need of above mentioned association. Well, let me guess only what

could be the solution.... Hmmm... I think, maybe... Narayana

Maharaja? Right, yes. I got it! What do you think?

 

(may I get beck now my head again, please, please... I am singing

the right song now..)

 

 

 

a-no-connection-to-the-parampara-ISCKONvadi-fellow,

das

 

..

[Guest guest]

>

> We are all guilty in this material world. Its a prison. To try to pretend

> its not is simply sentimental. Compassion is when we remind each other

> where we are really at. Compassion is the sadhus knife wielding, cutting

> through the illusion, cutting the hard knot of material attachment.

>

 

Are you maybe preparing here a scenario for a horror film? You

know, a kind of a psycho-horror a'la Hitchcock. Remember that scene

from the "Psycho", when the big knife is cutting through the

curtain of a dush-cabine, and the screaming blood starts

sprinkling all over the place...?

 

....and the "sadhu" walks out with the compassionate smile on his

face, his eyes turned upside-down in trans..

 

 

(You know, Samba, just recently you gave us here the "class"

about how we should not be playing around cheaply with the

expressions like "Vaisnava". And here you are, throwin'

around "sadhus" like potatoes when dug out by a tractor,

from a 10-hectare field.)

 

 

> Unfortunately this may be another case where the cold stark reality of

> text, belies the motivation and mood of the writer. Mahanidhi prabhu

> sometimes seems to think I am personaly attacking him.

 

Has the possibility of you personally attacking somebody

ever crossed your mind? Can't be. You are Samba das, after

all. And the other one is Mahanidhi das, after all. It's

other person's fault to feel sometimes personally attacked.

Because he is in illusion, in Sanskrit - maya, "that what is

not".

(never been in ISCKON before, tell me what is that yellow thing

on your nose)

 

 

What is "cold stark reality" is the matter of a subjective

perception. You should have been able to notice that not

everybody here would agree with your vision of reality.

Unfortunately, we pay no much attention to it. Otherwise

how could we maintain our vision of ourselves as uncompromisingly

merciful sadhus, a simha-bhaktisiddhanta or a strow-blade-balarama

models (boy, what sweet dreams for our tiny and weak intellects)?

 

 

 

the sadhu

..

[Guest guest]

Madhava wrote

 

> It's the sampradaya that is important. Over emphasis on what an

> individual guru may or may not have been or what he/she may or may not be

> now, seems to me to be missing that essesntial point. The connection

> made at initiation is to the guru as representative of the sampradaya,

> and is not limited to the guru as individual.

 

I agree

 

Your servant, Gokula das.