Call Off The Dogs!

[Guest guest]

Hey! Hey! Prisni Prabhu!

 

Hari Bol! You're back! How did the operation go? Are you a beautiful woman

now? :-) Can you send pictures to us. Really.

 

 

 

 

On 14 Apr 1999, Prsnigarbha das wrote:

 

> Janesvara das said:

> > It's self moderated I believe because the former moderator is getting an

> > operation to change himself into a woman the last I heard. Now there's

> > some juicy discussion material for the dogs! Ruff!

>

> If I were you, I would call it a test by Krsna. What would you do if this

> happened

> in your kingdom?

 

 

God forbid I should get a kingdom. But, actually, I hope you know I would try

to give you all protection and any support you so desired whether you were a

man with womens features or the other way around, devotee or otherwise.

 

You have to admit it is interesting discussion material. I'm sure you will be

facing a lot of it in years to come. I'm just glad you have a little faith

that most of us on this conference will be there for you if you want/need us.

I'll be your friend if you'll have me.

 

> A wise ksatriya king would ask his brahmanas, before

> taking some action, afraid of doing a mistake. New happenings are

> indeed scary, if one don't know what they are, and their significance

> in the picture.

 

 

I agree with this. I would probably ask "my" ministers first but my gut

reaction is simply to offer protection wherever its needed. I don't think you

have thrown in a very incredible new weird thing that isn't easily handled by

broad-mindedness and friendliness. I kind of like new things anyway, even

though I usually jump in head first and find a few bruises come my way

afterward. I love challenges.

 

 

I really do not understand why you did it and this may not be the place to

discuss your private feelings. I respect that. I do not think of you as

horrible at all but I am curious I have to admit.

 

I could ask some interesting questions. I am not insinuating anything or

judging you, I am just genuinely curious.

 

One that I hope might be alright to ask in this conference (if not, I'll

understand) is: What about your wife? Are there some measures that can be

taken to protect her (mentally and physically?

 

>

> ys Prisni dasi

 

This will take awhile for me to adjust to!

 

Welcome back and Hari Bol!

 

Your friend and servant,

Bhakta Janesvara dasa

[Guest guest]

At 7:25 -0800 4/14/99, COM: Prsnigarbha (das) HKS (Goteborg - S) wrote:

 

 

>So speaks a person who does not have a clue of what he is

>talking about. If something happened to your body, would not

>you let the doctors "mutilate" you to save your life?

>If you got a chronical disease, would you not take the necessary

>medicine to cure you of your disease?

 

Exactly. Or in an even more analogous case: How about if your child was

born with a clubfoot? Or with a hip deformity? Or with his/her palate and

lip split into two? Or with a hole in the heart muscle?

 

Would you say: "Sorry doctor, but this is how God made my child. It's

his/her karma. Living in a body is miserable, period. That's the nature of

the material world. At most, my child may have to live with this deformity

for 75-80 years. It may seem like a long time at first, but it's just a

blip in *real* time. So we have decided against surgery and the 'Ginsu'

knife." ???

 

Please think carefully before you answer this.

 

>Transsexual and transvestite are two completely different things,

 

Just wanted to affirm this. As Prisni said, a transsexual's external body

does not match the internal perception of his/her gender. Transsexuals

typically report that they feel "trapped in the wrong body" and it's

therefore known as a "gender identity disorder." Transvestites, on the

other hand, simply dress as the opposite sex to facilitate sexual arousal.

Transvestic fetishism is one of the "paraphilias". Other paraphilias

include voyeurism, other fetishisms (shoes, underwear are common),

exhibitionism etc.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> Just wanted to affirm this. As Prisni said, a transsexual's external body

does not match the internal perception of his/her gender.

>

 

 

Okay, I am politically insensitive.

 

What difference does it make what gender one identifies with? At this stage of

the game we don't have a clue what our eternal identity could be. And if we

did, our temporary material dress does not need to adversely effect our

eternal relationship with Krsna.

 

There is a big difference between having clubfoot and wanting to trade in

one's reproductive organs. If Prsni has his/her heart set on it, well, that's

a decision only he/she can make. It apears to me like an increadibly involving

endeavor that might tend to invite all kinds of unwelcome distraction.

 

While I can't claim to be experiencing boundless bliss as a man, being a women

in conditional life ain't no bundle of joy either. Either way, I don't see the

lasting value.

 

For instance, I think I am from Boston but I am not living in Boston.

Fortunately by God's Grace I have gotten a grip on that one -- to some degree.

[Guest guest]

On 14 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

> Exactly. Or in an even more analogous case: How about if your child was

> born with a clubfoot? Or with a hip deformity? Or with his/her palate and

> lip split into two? Or with a hole in the heart muscle?

 

Actually, this is a no-brainer. Srila Prabhupada usually said

something like "I hope this finds you in good health..." in his

letters. All of the above are _health_ issues, and poor health

obstructs one from doing devotional service to Krishna. Thus, one

should get one's health fixed in order to do devotional service.

 

What devotional service is enabled by changing one's gender,

though? You'll have to do better than "Oh, it makes a person

feel better," as marijuana and vodka can also do that, but are

nevertheless unacceptable.

 

Regards,

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

At 9:21 -0800 4/15/99, WWW: Sthita-dhi-muni (Dasa) SDG (Alachua FL - USA)

wrote:

 

 

>What difference does it make what gender one identifies with? At this stage of

>the game we don't have a clue what our eternal identity could be. And if we

>did, our temporary material dress does not need to adversely effect our

>eternal relationship with Krsna.

 

uh-oh. Don't spend too much time wondering, or you may have to find out for

yourself. :-(

 

I've heard the same description so many times, I've simply accepted that

those who are going through this are the experts. I don't feel like I need

to really understand first hand. Got enough of my own issues to work on.

Better to accept others as experts on their own life and to assume they're

making informed decisions for themselves (unless this involves hurting

others of course). I'd certainly like for them to make the same assumptions

about me. Some of my decisions may be less than ideal, but they're *my*

decisions and I have to live with the consequences.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

At 9:39 -0800 4/15/99, WWW: Vijay Pai (Houston TX - USA) wrote:

 

>On 14 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

>> Exactly. Or in an even more analogous case: How about if your child was

>> born with a clubfoot? Or with a hip deformity? Or with his/her palate and

>> lip split into two? Or with a hole in the heart muscle?

>

>Actually, this is a no-brainer. Srila Prabhupada usually said

>something like "I hope this finds you in good health..." in his

>letters.

 

Exactly. Someone's mental health and ability to serve can definitely be

adversly affected by being in a defective body (because it has a club foot

or the wrong genitals). I just had a crown put on one of my teeth this

morning, which invovled a lot of artificial destruction and manipulation of

my body. However, with my tooth hurting everytime it came into contact

with hot and cold liquids was definitely detrimental to my mental health,

so I felt justified.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>What devotional service is enabled by changing one's gender,

>though? You'll have to do better than "Oh, it makes a person

>feel better," as marijuana and vodka can also do that, but are

>nevertheless unacceptable.

 

Hmmmm..... but there is this tiny problem with using those to feel better

"no intoxication" - remember? I for one do not remember promising anything

during initiation about keeping my genitals in their original (in this

life) shape.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

>

> Better to accept others as experts on their own life and to assume they're

making informed decisions for themselves

>

>

 

I agree, but this confused gender situation does seem to have a degree of

influence by the modes of passion and ignorance. I am not saying the rest of

us are sattvic, but I find it hard to imagine someone grounded in a sattvic

frame of mind would feel overwhelmed by this particular issue.

 

None-the-less, whatever issues we may personally find ourselves dealing

with--it all appears very real, I am sure.

[Guest guest]

On 15 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> I for one do not remember promising anything

> during initiation about keeping my genitals in their original (in this

> life) shape.

>

>

 

 

I recall hearing the philosophy, "Ignore them, and they will go away" as in

the idea of tolerating the itch.

 

I supposed getting a face lift or a breast implant could be an asset under

certain circumstances. Gratefully, I do not find myself in a position needing

to consider such issues.

[Guest guest]

>

> What devotional service is enabled by changing one's gender,

> though? You'll have to do better than "Oh, it makes a person

> feel better," as marijuana and vodka can also do that, but are

> nevertheless unacceptable.

 

 

Making oneself feel better is all we, conditioned souls, do

all the time, every single moment. This is absolutely acceptable.

That what is to be judged is the particular way that one is

doing that. Thus intoxication is not acceptable, among other

things. So, as far as changing one's gender, there is no

reason for anybody to object it. There is also a letter from

Srila Prabhupada who completely accepts and acknowledges one

of his disciple's changing the gender, unless it is done

whimsically. So, for those who are in "bona-fide or not"

mode, this should be enough and satisfying.

 

That what strikes me particularly in this short discussion

on this topic, is the insensitivity of some devotees involved

in. They seam to have strictly observing the other people's

needs from their own perspective for what they would/wouldn't

need in their own life. We simply have no idea what might

be going on with other fellow human being next to us. Because

we are so gross.

 

I have also noticed the reactions of several people (not only

in this forum) in regard to this issue (change of gender).

That what was interesting is that the same persons would

speak the usual phrases (from sastras, of course) when it

comes to other people's situations, from solving different

life problems till the life-or-death situations. "Oh, it

is just materialistic life, we are concerned not for the

coat [body], but for the soul. A devotee sees soul, not the

body." Like that. But then, suddenly, all they see is - body.

They get so disturbed that someone wants/needs to change,

see, his/her coat! And it has just no impact on that people's

life, they are not requested to do anything particularly.

Except to be able to understand that a person who goes for

some such drastic change in his/her life must definitely

had have a good and strong reason to do it. But we are,

usually, not thinking so "deeply". That what is indeed deep

is our strong identification with our own body and its

gender, so simply on hearing that another person of the

same gender is giving it for another, makes us so upset,

disgusted, repulsive, cynical, rejective... But, remember,

it's going simply for some modification (not even complete

change) of a coat. Some people, obviously, need it, no matter

how much you or me do not need it. So simple it actually is.

 

The another moment is that we, normally, do not know how

exactly to behave towards the person who does change

his/her gender, our sexual conceptions gets disoriented

(like Janesvara, who nicely demonstrated this with his nervous

"joke" wether Prisni has become now a *beautiful* lady).

Thus it is us who feel unsecure and uncomfortable in

the situation we don't know to handle with as we usually

do. And, as it is common, instead of looking for *our*

problem within ourselves, we rather (that is easier)

point finger on that one (or something) that we have no

clue how to relate to.

 

 

So, to directly answer your question,

"What devotional service is enabled by changing one's gender,

though?"

 

Just same as in the case of changing one's "color" of a

doty, from saffron to white. For some convinced brahmacary

it simply makes no sense that to get married it helps or

enables anything in regard to rendering devotional service.

So similarly for a convinced male it really doesn't make

any sense to change the gender, from male to female.

So, you don't have to do it. That's all.

 

 

 

 

ys mnd

[Guest guest]

>I had my favourite place, in the temple room, on the right side, in the

>front, near to Radharani. Later the right side in the temple room was

>changed to the ladies side. Maybe I just got the blessing of beeing able

>to remain in my favourite place. :-)

 

Oh no! I love to stand very close to the altar, where I don't see any

other devotees, just the Deities. Does that mean I'm going to have to

transition into a sannyasa?????? ;-)

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

At 22:10 -0800 4/15/99, COM: Prsnigarbha (das) HKS (Goteborg - S) wrote:

>[Text 2238469 from COM]

 

 

>Or maybe even devotee males are proud of their maleness and actually

>do enjoy the itch......

>

 

and who argue that it's vedic to have multiple wives (incl. new young

models as the early models age) to help them scratch that itch.

 

Sigh.

 

Ys,

Madhusudani dasi

[Guest guest]

> I've heard the same description so many times, I've simply accepted that

> those who are going through this are the experts. I don't feel like I need

> to really understand first hand. Got enough of my own issues to work on.

> Better to accept others as experts on their own life and to assume they're

> making informed decisions for themselves (unless this involves hurting

> others of course). I'd certainly like for them to make the same

> assumptions about me. Some of my decisions may be less than ideal, but

> they're *my* decisions and I have to live with the consequences.

 

I can identify completely with this.

[Guest guest]

On 15 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

 

> Oh no! I love to stand very close to the altar, where I don't see any

> other devotees, just the Deities. Does that mean I'm going to have to

> transition into a sannyasa?????? ;-)

 

I don't know but why don't you ask Malati dasi now being the first sannyasini

in the movement.

[Guest guest]

>

> > While I can't claim to be experiencing boundless bliss as a man, being a

women in conditional life ain't no bundle of joy either. Either way, I don't

see the lasting value.

> >

 

> You seem to be set on enjoyment in the material world. How come

> you immediately jump to that thought? What makes you think I do

> what I do for enjoyment? Does it appear like women enjoy

> more then men?

>

>

 

 

Even subtley, I don't see exactly how the endeavor is worth it--now that's

just my own opinion. I mean both genders are simply a life of tribulation when

conditioned by material desires. Spiritually, even a dog can take part, even a

child--as Srila Prabhupada says. What difference does it make?

 

On the other hand, the woman who felt slighted by Bhisma (one of three sisters

in a Mahabharata story) returned as a man to get even. Bhisma would not fight

considering his past history as a woman. So there appears there might have

been some gender adjustment that happened in a less than regular way which

motivated Bhisma not to fight. So these things happen.

 

Whatever gender ones finds themselves experiencing, either by natural methods

or otherwise, human life is meant for self-realization.

[Guest guest]

>

> I am surprised some men devotees have not figured out that there are

> drugs that can be taken that literally makes them go away. This in

> light of some of the the stories I have head...

>

> Or maybe even devotee males are proud of their maleness and actually

> do enjoy the itch......

>

>

 

 

The idea is to outgrow the scratching of the insect bites and taking that as

some kind of substantial experience. We are by nature pleasure seeking, but in

spiritual pursuits we have ambitions to actually acheive it.

 

Sure, drugs can do so many things, but utlimately we are cultivating a

relationship, which is a matter of the heart.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

>

> Just same as in the case of changing one's "color" of a

> doty, from saffron to white. For some convinced brahmacary

> it simply makes no sense that to get married it helps or

> enables anything in regard to rendering devotional service.

> So similarly for a convinced male it really doesn't make

> any sense to change the gender, from male to female.

> So, you don't have to do it. That's all.

>

>

 

 

Look, if Prsna wants to be a girl, that's a personal decision. Still,

comparing mechanical gender changes to dealing with clubfoot or a brahmancari

taking to grhasta life could be a bit of a stretch.

 

If it helps you chant Hare Krsna, then who can argue it's anything but

auspicious. Those who wish to 'judge' the value of an activity can do so by

examining the results -- it's a scientific process, as they say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Male hormones are classified as a prohibited drug. It appears that

> the actions of that drug makes a person dangerous and violent. Maybe

> all men should be castrated, except for a selected few, for breeding,

> to take out all the violence of the world. Very much of which is due

> to the powerful hormone produced in males......

>

> (In case you did not get it, everything here is said in a joking

> mode. Even this sentence)

>

> ys Prisni dasi

 

Darn it, and here I was starting to do my resume to apply for being one

of the uncastrated.

[Guest guest]

"WWW: Vyapaka (Dasa) ACBSP (Montreal - CAN)" wrote:

 

> [Text 2239223 from COM]

>

> On 15 Apr 1999, Madhusudani Radha wrote:

>

> > Oh no! I love to stand very close to the altar, where I don't see any

> > other devotees, just the Deities. Does that mean I'm going to have to

> > transition into a sannyasa?????? ;-)

>

> I don't know but why don't you ask Malati dasi now being the first sannyasini

> in the movement.

 

Actually it was Visvakhika, Adhara, and Hladini, then a second group of

women, and then Malati after all those, just for historical accuracy.

 

Although I don't think Malati thinks of herself as a sannyasini these days,

and

has certainly eschewed the perks of the ashram.

[Guest guest]

On 16 Apr 1999, Prsnigarbha das wrote:

 

>

> My gender is female. I was born with that gender. I was born with a

> male body. It would be much less of a problem if people could

> treat me according to my gender, and not my body. But so far the

> only person who did was my spiritual master, who could see through

> the gross bodily covering. Because all you others would see me

> as a man, which I never was, I have to change my gross bodily

> appearance to a woman to be able to function in society. So don't

> look at me, look at yourself for a reason.

>

 

 

 

I've got this problem where I was born thinking I'm a cool dude, but everyone

else keeps telling me I'm a jerk. It can all be so confusing. Boy, life is

tough -- see, I can relate!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..

[Guest guest]

>

> Our philosophy have never been that the sudra, posing as

> ksatriya, should just stay in his position, and just chant

> hare krishna, and everything will be allright. Our philosophy

> is - away with him, and put a person with ksatriya qualities in

> his place.

>

 

 

I agree, we should all feel properly situated, and sometimes physical

adjustments are required. Still, there does not seem to be a plethoria of

examples relating to mechanical gender adjustments as there are for other

types of occupational duties -- that's just a fact based on the available

sastric evidence. If someone feels the need to do such things, that's a

personal decision that might not require official support from the Vaisnava

siddhanta.

[Guest guest]

On 16 Apr 1999, Madhava Gosh wrote:

 

 

> Actually it was Visvakhika, Adhara, and Hladini, then a second group of

> women, and then Malati after all those, just for historical accuracy.

>

> Although I don't think Malati thinks of herself as a sannyasini these days,

> and

> has certainly eschewed the perks of the ashram.

 

She explicitly implied when she commented to me and others that she would

never take off saffron no matter who told her to do so. I deduced that she

meant that she was stillconsidering herself a sanyasini or whatever the

Kirtananda concoction was (and she seems to share). But as many on this

conference advocate the equality of men and women, shouldn't she be allowed to

take sannyasa. Does anyone have any sastric quotes? How about Mother Hare

Krsna dasi who has researched varnasrama and cow protection so well.