selective information processing

December 11, 1998

Respected Gunamani Mataji,

Namonamaha. Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

> Dear Prabhu.

> Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

> >> According to my information Srila Prabhupada did ask two of his women

> >> disciples to be GBC. I have no reason to doubt that.

> >Neither I... But the facts of history... He did not appoint them.

> >Simple.

> Facts of history, he asked them.

OK.

> However when we see the accusations and harsh words put against Malati

> Prabhu it is understandable that Srila Prabhupada accepted their desire

> not to take up the challenge. Some men have indeed been very violent in

> their attempts to keep power. Historical fact too.

I fully agree with you that harsh words were indeed used against Malati

Mataji & it is regrettable in view of the fact that she is sincerely

endevoring to propagate the Krishna Consciousness movement. Both Bhakti

Vikas Maharaj & myself (I speak/write for him at this time because we

discussed this issue last month) appreciate that and feel that she is a very

sincere soul. We do not approve of the any public denegration of her. No.

Writing this, there is also a valid concern that for a lady (or if she was

even a male) with a past such as her's, it might not be prudent for her to

accept a leadership position. It might set the wrong precedent for society.

The fact is that she did leave the path of Bhakti & engaged in certain

reprehensible activities that we need not remember here, nay the should be

forgotten in the sense that since she sincerely regrets those activities she

has already distanced herself from them.

But "others", & that means both devotees in the institution & those outside

the institution may not fully understand that. Therefore the verse in Gita,

"sa yat pramanam kurute" comes into effect, when we are talking about a

leadership position.

Hope you understand my point. I fully respect Malati Mataji & can state

that I had found her most co-operative (in corresspondence we had about some

ISKCON "work" earlier this year). Since she is working in full co-operation

with ISKCON I hold her in high esteem. How can I prove my sincerity to you

on this issue any more? Radhanath Maharaj knows who I am & what my

activities are, and I am sure that Malati Mataji can check my bona fides

with him anyday, if that is the question here.

As Guru Krishna Prabhu has pointed out nicely in several texts he has posted

in this discussion, our aim as an informal "think tank" was a concern for

the direction of the movement. No a campaign to villify or demonize anyone

- despite the fact that, as you rightly point out, certain contributors to

the GHQ conference did appear to indulge in doing so.

Some of it was just that they went a little overboard in their passionate

zeal of idealism. Since we really don't know each other (many of us, that

is) to be fully judgemental would be a mistake.

If anyone wants to continue to harp on that - fine. It can be brought up to

the ISKCON authorities, as Bhakti Vikas Maharaj had written & we all will

accept their judgement.

> Allthough for many years the quotes where Srila Prabhupada encourages both

> men and women to give class have been there, the surroundings these women

> have found themselves in have been very counterproductive to achieve this.

You see, women ought to give classes, yes. But to other women. Why?

Because, first of all Prabhupada also taught separation of the sexes in

society as far as possible (which goes "against the grain" of western

society). The "butter & fire" analogy is not unrelated here.

Secondly, it was/is not a part of Vedic tradition or culture for ladies to

lecture either publicly or to men. Ladies lecture privately to other

ladies.

Are there exceptions to this tradition & to Prabhupada's stated

desire/outlook on separation of the sexes? Yes. Jahnava Mata.

But exceptions remain just that. Exceptional.

exceptional (îk-sèp¹she-nel) adjective

1. Being an exception; uncommon.

2. Well above average; extraordinary: an exceptional memory. See Usage

Note at EXCEPTIONABLE.

(From the American Heritage Dictionary)

> A devotee is naturally humble, thats why others should encourage the

> devotee to speak, if they want to make progress. What the women in ISKCON

> needs today is encouragement. For so many years they have been told that

> they were nothing worth, that they were simply maya and if they raise

> their voice it was simply to attract the men. A compassionate father would

> naturally not throw his welltrained and humble daughter into such

> circumstances. However if the men behaved in a cultured and respectful

> manner, seeing the women as mothers like Srila Prabhupada told them to,

> there would be a place for them in all parts of the society. And this

> would benefit the society greatly.

Here you are perfectly correct & I agree with you in toto, in consonance

with what I have written above.

> > But why make it a rule? Especially when the role of ladies was one of

> >shyness & the role of a manager is quite opposite - mixing with society

> >freely.

> I dont think that very many ladies would really go for that position.

> Mostly we are shy, want to be protected and becomes easily hurt. Thats why

> I think Grhastacouples would be a good idea, actually it is vedic is it

> not? A king and a queen. Law and order but also compassion.

> The seven mothers how and where are they today?

Today everything IS upside down - at least according to the Vedic

conception. Yes, the queen did assist the King; we have the example of

Draupadi. But if you go deeply Mataji, you will see that the principle of

separation of the sexes was in place during the Mahabharata times.

> > All I say is that we should *strive* to shift our behavior to those

> >standards. It *is* a gradual process. It should be volunatry. No

> >force.

>

> >Understanding & implementation. For the good of society. Those were

> >Prabhupada's recommendations. Like wearing a Sari or a Dhoti.

>

> >Why all the "hue & cry"; because we (not you subjectively Mataji, but

> >society objectively) DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE.

>

> Those that you indicate do not want to change, might be the same ones who

> have given their lifes to spread the teachings of Srila Prabhupada under

> the most adverse difficult and lifethreathening circumstances.

That may be true & they will be blessed by Prabhupada & Mahaprabhu for their

sincere services. Of that I have no doubt.

But anyone can deviate philosophically. I feel constrained by Raktambara

Prabhu's instructions to not indulge in critizing a leader of ISKCON who

recently gave up his sannyas vows & is in the process of marrying one of his

ex-disciple's wife. The point is that spiritual life is like the razor's

edge & we must all be careful at every moment to follow the path of vedic

literatures, Gita & Bhagavatam.

> Vedic standard is a king who will cut off his own flesh to simply save a

> pigeon in his kingdom. So yes, gradual process.

> The process for this age will save even the most fallen.

> When the mood of godness increases, varnasrama-dharma or sanatana-dharma

> will manifest.

Good. Yes, it is hard to be a Maharaj Sibi...

> "The degradation of the brahminical power started, when they stressed

> birthright more than culture."

> (S.B.1.18.33.Purp.)

That's why I am endeavoring to point out Srila Prabhupada's teachings &

vedic cultural standards & habits to my fellow mlecchas & yavanas (I being

born in a beef-eating mleccha & yavana family in Chicago, USA...)

No claim to any status of "birthright" here.

dasanudas,

Basu Ghosh Das

December 11, 1998

> > > According to my information Srila Prabhupada did ask two of his women

> > > disciples to be GBC. I have no reason to doubt that.

> >

> > Neither I... But the facts of history... He did not appoint them.

> > Simple.

>

> He never used the internet, so as a strict advocate of only doing what he

> did, you need to log off and stay off.

You need to set the example so that we less intelligent souls can learn our

lessons!

Example is greater than precept, no?

December 11, 1998

>But "others", & that means both devotees in the institution & those outside

>the institution may not fully understand that. Therefore the verse in

>Gita,

>"sa yat pramanam kurute" comes into effect, when we are talking about a

>leadership position.

>Hope you understand my point. I fully respect Malati Mataji & can state

>that I had found her most co-operative (in corresspondence we had about

>some

>ISKCON "work" earlier this year). Since she is working in full

>co-operation

>with ISKCON I hold her in high esteem. How can I prove my sincerity to you

>on this issue any more? Radhanath Maharaj knows who I am & what my

>activities are, and I am sure that Malati Mataji can check my bona fides

>with him anyday, if that is the question here.

Dear Prabhu.

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

I am simply a mother with four children, and my reason for taking part in

this discussion have been my worry for the future of them and others in

Srila Prabhupada`s movement and on this earth. I have heard your points with

interest and would not dare to become somewhat even close to a judge on your

or anybody elses personal life, since I am without a doubt not the person

for it.

I think it is good that these things are discussed openly and seen from

different angles of vision. However I will withdraw for the moment, since I

value human relations more than political ones.

Offence are never eradicated by offence, but by appology and forgiveness.

So kindly if you prabhu or anyone else have felt offended or disturbed by

my words and thoughts, please forgive me.

Your servant Gunamani d.d.

December 11, 1998

Prabhupada: These are all imagination. When woman, when she is misguided,

she becomes dangerous. There is no question of love. But one thing,

according to Vedic conception life, that women and children are on the same

level, so they should be given protection by men. In childhood the

protection is from the father, in youthhood the protection is from the

husband, and in old age the protection is from the grown-up sons. So they

should never be given independence. They should be given protection, and

their natural love for father or for husband or for children, then that

propensity will grow very smoothly, and that will establish the relationship

with woman and man very happy, and both of them will be able to execute

their real function, spiritual life, by cooperation. The woman is known as

his better half, so if she looks after the comfort of the man, a man is

working and he is looking after the comfort, then both will be satisfied and

their spiritual life will progress. Woman is meant for certain duties; man

is meant for... Man is meant for hard working, and woman is meant for homely

comfort, love. So both of them, if they are situated in their respective

duties under proper training, then this combination of man and woman will

help both of them to make progress in spiritual life.

Prabhupada to Hayagriva in their discussions on philosophy.

"Here is a difference between male and female that exists even in the higher

statuses of life -- in fact, even between Lord Siva and his wife. Lord

Siva could understand Citraketu very nicely, but Parvati could not. Thus

even in the higher statuses of life there is a difference between the

understanding of a male and that of a female. It may be clearly said that

the understanding of a woman is always inferior to the understanding of a

man. In the Western countries there is now agitation to the effect that

man and woman should be considered equal, but from this verse it appears

that woman is always less intelligent than man." (Srila Prabhupada in Srimad

Bhagavatam SB 6:17:34-35, Purport)

"But we have to pick up the order of the shastras. Tasmad shastra-vidhanokta

As the shastra gives regulative, we have to accept that. And if we do not

accept that, yah shastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karatah, if we do

whimsically, then na siddhim avapnoti, you cannot get any perfection of

life, na sukham, neither you’ll be happy."

Srila Prabhupada on 27-9-76 at Vrindavan in a lecture on SB 1.7.32-33.

"So those who are not following the authorized instructions, they are simply

creating disturbance, and by such process one cannot be happy, neither

perfect, and what to speak of going back to home, back to Godhead? We do not

therefore accept anything which is not authorized by the disciplic

succession. We reject immediately. There is example that in India there is a

tree, sagu, sagu(?) tree. I do not know whether it is in your country. That,

that tree has a very, I mean to say, thick trunk. But a little jerking, it

will break. A little jerking. Sagu. And there is another tree which is

called tamarind tree. So even a fingerlike stem, you cannot break. It is so

strong. So our policy should be that when we are falling down, we must take

shelter of this tamarind tree, not that sagu tree. The tamarind tree is

Vedic instruction, infallible, without any mistake. As I have given you

several times the example that Vedas says that stool of animal is impure,

and in another place it says that stool of cow is pure."

Srila Prabhupada From a lecture on SB 2.3.24 at Los Angeles on 22-6-72.

Similarly, a devotee, an unflinching devotee, without any other desires, who

is dedicated to the service of the Lord, he is Sadhu. So we have to take

shelter of such Sadhu. Adau gurv-ashrayam. And Sadhu will instruct you. Not

by whims, but through Shastra. He is Sadhu. Sadhu will never speak to you

anything which is not in the Shastra. Sadhu, Shastra, and guru. And guru is

bona fide spiritual master who follows Sadhu and Shastra. Who follows his

bona fide spiritual master and who follows the instructions of Shastra, he

is guru. Sadhu-Shastra-guru-vakya, tinete kariya aikya. Narottama dasa

Thakura says that you have to act by accommodating the instruction of Sadhu,

instruction of Shastra. And you have to distribute. Because Caitanya

Mahaprabhu says that these ignorant people who are being defeated

repeatedly, such persons, they are being entangled in this materialistic way

of life, in this material world. Krishna bhuliya jiva. He said, Krishna

bhuli' sei jiva anadi -bahirmukha. Anyone who has forgotten Krishna, he is

anadi bahir mukha. He is enamored by this external energy, material world.

Just like in Bombay city everyone is working hard, very hard. Their mission

is, "How I shall be able to construct a skyscraper building." That's all.

Why they are working so hard? Their mission is that I must have a skyscraper

house and good apartment and nice wife, nice children and bank balance, then

happy. (chuckles) But he does not know how long these things will continue.

Ten years, twenty years, fifty years, hundred years, then finished. Your

skyscraper building, your nice wife, your apartment, your friends,

everything that you have made(?), you do not know where you are going. That

you do not know. There is risk. Yam yam vapi smaran loke tyajaty, at the

time of death everything will be examined. What are you going to be next?

You have to accept another body. So that body will be created in this life.

Yam yam vapi and that bodily structure will be formed at the time of your

death. Just like if you leave this apartment, you'll have to go another

apartment. So you have to select another apartment, good or bad. That will

depend on your capacity, how much rent you are able to pay. Then you leave

this apartment. Similarly, at the time of death by the superior arrangement,

another apartment will be given to you, and immediately that is settled up,

you leave this body and enter into that body. Daiva-netrena, karmana

daiva-netrena. That will be considered by your work. If your works are

nice... That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita...

Srila Prabhupada in a Lecture on TLC at Bombay 17-3-71.

December 11, 1998

> Offence are never eradicated by offence, but by appology and forgiveness.

> So kindly if you prabhu or anyone else have felt offended or disturbed by

> my words and thoughts, please forgive me.

> Your servant Gunamani d.d.

You also please kindly excuse me for any offences I might have committed to

you. It was not my intention.

And believe me, I too am here for the discussion & not for politics.

Again I thank you very much for your sincere inquiries and the humble tone

in which you have so kindly & thoughtfully adopted in your corresspondence.

You have set an important example here which is highly appreciated.

dasanudas,

Basu Ghosh Das

December 12, 1998

WWW: Bhuta-bhavana (Dasa) ACBSP (Incline Village NV - USA) wrote:

> [Text 1924978 from COM]

>

> On 10 Dec 1998, Madhava Gosh wrote:

>

> >

> > He never used the internet, so as a strict advocate of only doing what he

> did,

> > you need to log off and stay off.

> >

> That is SO immature and ILLOGICAL, I don't know why I waste bandwidth

> responding. Since you CANNOT defeat Jivan Mukta or Sita with guru, sadhu or

> shastra, you simply say SHUT-UP. What a farce.

Excuse. I don't say shut up. I say be consistent. Either apply the logic

that

Srila Prabhupada didn't do it it therefore it shouldn't be done in all cases,

or else acknowledge that the GHQers themselves are doing things that Srila

Prabhupada idn't do.

Illogical is to state in a medium Srila Prabhupada didn't use that we shouldn't

do what Srila Prabhupada didn't do.

As far as being SO immature, here is some immaturity.

I'm rubber, you're glue

Bounce off me, stick to you.

December 12, 1998

>

> You see, women ought to give classes, yes. But to other women. Why?

> Because, first of all Prabhupada also taught separation of the sexes in

> society as far as possible (which goes "against the grain" of western

> society). The "butter & fire" analogy is not unrelated here.

" I do not know why these things inventions are going on. That is our only

business, to invent something new program? We have already got our Vaisnava

standard. That is sufficient for Madhvacarya, Ramanujacarya, it was

sufficient for Lord Caitanya, six Goswamis, for Bhaktivinoda Thakura, for my

Guru Maharaja Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati, for me, for all big, big saints and

acaryas in our line-why it shall be inadequate for my disciples so they must

manufacture something? That is not possible. Who has introduced these

things, that women cannot have chanting japa in the temple, they cannot

perform the arati and so many things? If they become agitated, then let the

brahmacaries go to the forest, I have never introduced these things. If the

brahmacaries cannot remain in the presence of women in the temple, then they

may go to the forest, not remaining in New York City, because in New York

there are so many women, so how they can avoid seeing? Best thing is to go

to the forrest for not seeing any women, if they become so easily agitated,

but then no one will either see them and how our preaching work will go on?"

(SPL to Ekayani, 3rd december, 1972)

>

> Secondly, it was/is not a part of Vedic tradition or culture for ladies to

> lecture either publicly or to men. Ladies lecture privately to other

> ladies.

"So far as girls or boys lecturing in the morning, that doesn`t make

anydifference. Either girl or boy devotees may deliver lecture if they choose

to do. We have no such distinction of bodily designations, male or female.

Krsna consciousness is on the spiritual platform. As such anyone who is a

devotee of the Lord, following in this line of disciplic succession, can

deliver lecture on the teachings of Bhagavad Gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, etc."

(SPL to Syama dasi, 21st October, 1968)

>

So once again you are correcting Srila Prabhupada?

December 12, 1998

> As far as being SO immature, here is some immaturity.

>

> I'm rubber, you're glue

> Bounce off me, stick to you.

\o/ \o/ \o/

o __#__ o __#__ o __#__

/#\ /#\ /#\

_II_ _II_ _II_

December 12, 1998

> So once again you are correcting Srila Prabhupada?

Or is it you - time & again?!

"Unnecessary association with women, even with one’s mother, sister or

daughter, is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization. A civilization

that allows men to mix unrestrictedly with women is an animal civilization.

**In Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal**, but mixing with women and

talking with them as equals actually constitutes an uncivilized way of

life." (Srila Prabhupada in SB 7.12.18 Purport)

"**" Supplied by me.

"Because modern society sanctions unrestricted mixing of men and women, its

citizens cannot possibly achieve peace; rather, the regulation of conflict

becomes the basis of social survival. This is the symptom of an ignorant

society falsely accepting the material body as the highest good, as

described here by the words vishayeshu gunadhyasat."

(H.H. Hridayananda Maharaj in the Purport of SB 11.21.19) (Who said he was

pro-feminist?)

"To understand Brahman is not the business of tiny brain. Alpha-medhasam.

There are two Sanskrit words, alpa-medhasa and su-medhasa. Alpa-medhasa

means having little brain substance. Physiologically, within the brain there

are brain substance. It is found that the brain substance in man is found up

to 64 ounce. They are very highly intellectual persons. And in woman the

brain substance is not found more than 34 ounce. You’ll find, therefore,

that there is no very great scientist, mathematician, philosopher, among

women. You’ll never find because their brain substance cannot go.

Artificially do not try to become equal with men. That is not allowed in the

Vedic shastra. Na striyah svatantratam arhati. That is called shastra."

Srila Prabhupada (not Basu Ghosh there Madhava...) in a lecture on Gita 16.7

(read the purport sometime, MGP...) at Hawaii on Feb 3, 1975.

Now, let's review to my words that you quoted in the last text...

> You see, women ought to give classes, yes. But to other women. Why?

> Because, first of all Prabhupada also taught separation of the sexes in

> society as far as possible (which goes "against the grain" of western

> society). The "butter & fire" analogy is not unrelated here.

> Secondly, it was/is not a part of Vedic tradition or culture for ladies to

> lecture either publicly or to men. Ladies lecture privately to other

> ladies.

I suggest YOU stop the twisting & start the understanding...

But from the way this discussion is going... highly unlikely.

Anyway, I keep hoping against hope.

Liberalananda Maharaj ki jaya!!! :)

December 12, 1998

To Basu Ghosh

Again I don't understand it in which context you are quoting all that

quotes.

I don't see this quotes to be contradictory with anything I wrote you till

now, and you are citing them to me with the desire: "Kindly note/understand"

What??

Dear Prabhu, really no need to waste your valuable time (which is not even

your nor mine), to answer my letters,

especcially if you didn't read them!

At least to me it appears so by sending me this kilometers of quotes with

the desire to pruve me something with what I never dissagreed:

> Kindly note that **Srila Prabhupada** not Basu Ghosh Das, GHQ, XYZ, ABC or

> whomsover, clearly says that "women are meant for certain duties".

>....

respectively with your long quotes .....

......

> Woman is meant for certain duties; man

> is meant for... Man is meant for hard working, and woman is meant for

> homely comfort, love.

My duties since I fellt into Iskcon are hard fisicaly and mentaly and are

the best to build my spiritual intelligence, as told to me by my Master.

Before joining Iskcon I never performed so "non vedic" dharma for a "woman".

My duties were and now are hard, and probably they will be so for at least

some good period of future and where were the "hard working men", where are

they now and where they will be in that good period of future-? I don't know

and I don't bother eader about them- I have what to do and there is also

much nectar around me so I don't need to waste time on you and those similar

to you.

If I would write you more about this "hard"/makes "harsh" jobs that I got in

Iskcon, than it would look as I would complain about it and that would not

be truth, because I love/d all the services and the responsibility I got

from my Guru and my authorities, and it pleases them. Srila Prabhupada

really blessed me by giving me the possibility to serve his mission under my

authorities in *that* way - non vedic after ypur purporting. And Srila

Prabhupada thanked me personally for doing so, you may belive it or not. And

once again I have no problem with your quotes AS THEY ARE and not "As you

would like them to be". So there is no use that you quote to me personally

any more with that spirit, because I have strong immun system agains it,

this kind of quotationing can not touch my heart, or stone, however you

like.

I respect your "mood", but I live it aside without desire to touch it any

more too. Please accept my renouncing you.

As gran/father says: Even in the spiritual world gives parties, what to

speak of the world manipulated by the tree modes of nature.

I enjoy cooking, I enjoy washing clothes, I enjoy beeing at home in the

temple and singing devotional songs while cleaning(especially when outside

is -15), I love make myself nicly dressed in a colourfull sari rather than

in cold jeens, I love to not have to worry if we will get it together to pay

a rent for the temple, I love to be protected and taken care of rather than

to show around like a "man"............................... I love it, I

love it, I love it ......................

but my Guru doesn't alow me

doesn't alow me

to retire unther the excuse of beeing vedic

Even when I begg him

in the times when womenly weakness owerpowers me

But he kindly puls my mind together and I follow him in a way he wants it

from me,

because Srila Prabhupada aprooved it to me to do so, and because I know that

he wants me to come to Krsna prema and that is for me my dharma.

And if I would get vedic in your way, and get merried and accept a

"comfortable homely life", we would have to close down the temple here in

Berlin, because our big, big,"men" (just big big mouth) misteriously

dissappiared when the difficult time visited us a few years ago,

(the only *men* who stayed are:

my Guru Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada

tempel presidents wife

and my godsister.)

Please note:

Kindly note "Prabhu" - I have no problem with this scenario, it is just a

foto for your info, about my dharma given to me by my Trinity mentioned to

you abowe.

With all respects to you and your quotes. And you don't have to wory that

much about myself, I ashure you that I am in the best hands, and life

showed me too what my dharma is. - First not to follow the blind uncle

ideed, while Krsna provided me a father and grandfather with healty eyes.

**Please kindly don't write to me any more** because you have nothing sane

to say, even if you try to hide your limited understanding behind the quotes

of your Master.

That was my last non vedic touch to you mio Maestro Superiore

Just leave me a prostitue, why you bother that much?

I am paid by my Masters much more than I deserve it for my job.

And how about you, your job, your healt?

If you are in need, I can help you, but please don't try to convert me.

I don't like to fight with Jehova witnesses, I prefer to go to another

street, although they are so much into converting me with their quotations

of truths of the ultimate day and my duty. I respect them, but they have

their mission and I got mine by my Prabhu.

I would give you advice for your next time quotationinginginging:

As my Guruji told me:"People don't by books (or *quotes* that you didn't

digested), they buy you, your personality - *as you are* made by Krsna,

that is what is atractive." And not as you *think* you *should * be for

Krsna. Dharma, artha and kama they have enough, but Krsna they don't have.

I tryed it out and it really works! Books go out like anything.

People don't say anymore:Buu, log off, close the shop, go home with your

books and "quotes".

Prabhuji, please try to understand, no taste in you an your world-view, so I

hope this time you understand me and the next time when I go into

conference, I'll not see a quotes from you for me "so kindly".

Thank you.

Hare Krsna.

December 12, 1998

Basu Ghosh prabhu wrote:

> > So once again you are correcting Srila Prabhupada?

>

> Or is it you - time & again?!

>

> "Unnecessary association with women, even with one’s mother, sister or

> daughter, is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization. A

> civilization that allows men to mix unrestrictedly with women is an animal

> civilization. **In Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal**, but mixing

> with women and talking with them as equals actually constitutes an

> uncivilized way of life." (Srila Prabhupada in SB 7.12.18 Purport)

Srila Prabhupada did **NOT** categorized ladies and men

performance of spiritual activities together in the temple

room (chanting, listening to the classes, *lecturing*, discussing..)

to be the **extreme liberalism** or **unrestricted mixing**.

The point brought up by Madhava Gosh prabhu is very, very

clear and simple. You are correcting Srila Prabhupada on

this obvious point, and in response you simply counteract by

merely saying (and supplying an irrelevant quote), "Not me,

but you."

This tactic you use all the time, as I've noticed it. Sorry

to make you upset again, but it is the way the stubborn children

act. No matter what you say to them, they simply shoot back,

without much deeper consideration, "Aha, aha, not me but you,

tralalalala, tralalala..."

Please supply the clear evidence from Srila Prabhupada that

will support you claim that the performance of the mentioned

spiritual activities are considered to be the form of extreme

liberalism and unrestricted mixing of women and men.On the

other hand, we have seen the obvious statements by Prabhupada

that speak directly against your claim. If you can't then

please be quiet on this point and stop accusing others for

your blunder that you did.

> I suggest YOU stop the twisting & start the understanding...

>

> But from the way this discussion is going... highly unlikely.

*Hopeless, hopeless*... not just "highly unlikely". That you

will be able to so easily dismiss ("correct") Srila Prabhupada's

clear approval of women and men being together in the temple,

performing the mentioned activities. Well, you may try. But

none here is to be that easily fooled by your rhetoric and

by using the quotes on the way a jongleur would use his balls,

throwing them up and down, here and there so that one doesn't

know where is what and which is which.

ys mnd

December 12, 1998

COM: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda - IN) wrote:

> [Text 1929397 from COM]

>

> > So once again you are correcting Srila Prabhupada?

>

> Or is it you - time & again?!

>

> "Unnecessary association with women, even with one’s mother, sister or

> daughter, is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization. A civilization

> that allows men to mix unrestrictedly with women is an animal civilization.

> **In Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal**, but mixing with women and

> talking with them as equals actually constitutes an uncivilized way of

> life." (Srila Prabhupada in SB 7.12.18 Purport)

You have miscited the reference here. It is actually verse 8. here it is in

it's entireity.

"TRANSLATION

If the wife of the spiritual master is young, a young brahmacäré should not

allow her to care for his hair, massage his body with oil, or bathe him with

affection like a mother.

PURPORT

The relationship between the student or disciple and the wife of the spiritual

master or teacher is like that between son and mother. A mother sometimes cares

for her son by combing his hair, massaging his body with oil, or bathing him.

Similarly, the wife of the teacher is also a mother (guru-patné), and therefore

she may also care for the disciple in a motherly way. If the wife of the

teacher

is a young woman, however, a young brahmacäré should not allow such a mother to

touch him. This is strictly prohibited. There are seven kinds of mothers:

ätma-mätä guroù patné

brähmaëé räja-patnikä

dhenur dhätré tathä påthvé

saptaitä mätaraù småtäù

These mothers are the original mother, the wife of the teacher or spiritual

master, the wife of a brähmaëa, the king’s wife, the cow, the nurse and the

earth. Unnecessary association with women, even with one’s mother, sister or

daughter, is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization. A civilization

that allows men to mix unrestrictedly with women is an animal civilization. In

Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal, but mixing with women and talking with

them as equals actually constitutes an uncivilized way of life."

So I certainly agree with the point of the verse that the wife of the guru

shouldn't be massaging his brahmacaries, which is the main and direct point.

Such mixing is uncivilised.

As for indirect points, this supports that women should be involved, as in

civilised society the guru and the king have wifes. In the emergency situation

that we have been operating under for the last 20 years, the unbalanced male

energy has lead to situations of abuse. This needs to be balanced by the

presence of women in leading roles in the institution, just like it always

has

been in civilised society.

Also, to speak to women like they are equals is uncivilised, they are to be

respected as one would respect one's own mother. Of course, in the Western

society, the mother has not been respected so it is understandable that

Western

born devotees would not be able to understand what it is to respect their

mothers.

Women not not be talked to unrestrictedly. Interacting in a capacity in an

institution is not unrestricted, it is bound by the protocols of the position.

>

> "**" Supplied by me.

Yes, we understand that you empahasis things without reference to the larger

context.

>

> "Because modern society sanctions unrestricted mixing of men and women, its

> citizens cannot possibly achieve peace; rather, the regulation of conflict

> becomes the basis of social survival. This is the symptom of an ignorant

> society falsely accepting the material body as the highest good, as

> described here by the words vishayeshu gunadhyasat."

>

> (H.H. Hridayananda Maharaj in the Purport of SB 11.21.19) (Who said he was

> pro-feminist?)

Only the GHOers have made that claim. I am glad that you are starting to

realise that it is possible to support women in management and not be a

feminist. To protect women, there definitely needs to be restrictions. No

one

has ever argued there shouldn't be. It is simply a GHQ straw man argument.

>

> "To understand Brahman is not the business of tiny brain. Alpha-medhasam.

> There are two Sanskrit words, alpa-medhasa and su-medhasa. Alpa-medhasa

> means having little brain substance. Physiologically, within the brain there

> are brain substance. It is found that the brain substance in man is found up

> to 64 ounce. They are very highly intellectual persons. And in woman the

> brain substance is not found more than 34 ounce. You’ll find, therefore,

> that there is no very great scientist, mathematician, philosopher, among

> women. You’ll never find because their brain substance cannot go.

> Artificially do not try to become equal with men. That is not allowed in the

> Vedic shastra. Na striyah svatantratam arhati. That is called shastra."

>

> Srila Prabhupada (not Basu Ghosh there Madhava...) in a lecture on Gita 16.7

> (read the purport sometime, MGP...) at Hawaii on Feb 3, 1975.

>

Therefore çästra says, acintyäù khalu ye bhävä na täàs tarkeëa yojayet.

Acintya,

which is inconceivable, beyond your sense perception, don’t try to argue and

understand it and speculate. This is foolishness. It is not possible. Therefore

we have to go to the guru. Tad-vijïänärthaà sa gurum eväbhigacchet, samit-päëiù

çrotriyaà brahma-niñöham [MU 1.2.12]. This is the process. But the demons, they

do not know, this process. They speculate; they manufacture. Simply by jugglery

of words they manufacture their truth.

Also from the same lecture.

SB lecture 8-3-68

So far spiritual life is concerned, it does not depend on the material

brain substance. It is different thing. It is spiritual platform. It has

nothing to do with this bodily construction. You must remember. We don’t

make any distinction that a man can be better Krsna consciousness than

woman. No. A woman can be better Krsna consciousness because they are very

simple. They can accept any religious system. Generally the women, they

accept it because they are very simple. They have no crooked mind

Srila Prabhupada (not Madhava Gosh there Basu...)

> Now, let's review to my words that you quoted in the last text...

>

> > You see, women ought to give classes, yes. But to other women. Why?

> > Because, first of all Prabhupada also taught separation of the sexes in

> > society as far as possible (which goes "against the grain" of western

> > society). The "butter & fire" analogy is not unrelated here.

>

> > Secondly, it was/is not a part of Vedic tradition or culture for ladies to

> > lecture either publicly or to men. Ladies lecture privately to other

> > ladies.

>

> I suggest YOU stop the twisting & start the understanding...

What twisting did I do? I simply quoted Srila Prabhupada where he says women

can give classes and be be in the temple and that if the brahmacaries are

agitated they can go to the forest. How is that twisting? You say women can't

give classes, Srila Prabhupada says they can, if accepting Srila Prabhupada's

understanding over yours is twisting, well, then, "Twist and shout!".