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>I want to be convinced to support "varnasrama colleges" (after all, I


>that Srila Prabhupada desired them, whatever they are), but no one has sent


>the brochure that tells me what this college is supposed to be and what it

>will accomplish, who its students are and its professors, and why resources

>should be diverted from book distribution and other ISKCON programs (which

>Srila Prabhupada also undoubtedly desired to go on) to create these

>"colleges". Will somebody paint me a clear picture, please? Or is it just


>name in search of a concept?


I don't know what Srila Prabhupada actually meant, so I will

just offer my own viewpoints.


Now looking at ISKCON, there is problem with leadership. Material as

well as "spiritual". We have problems with the different leadership

roles in our society. I suggest that these problems come from the

leaders not beeing properly educated for their roles.


Someone gets appointed as, for example, a temple president,

without having a clue of what he actually is supposed to do.

New gurukula teachers have to invent (speculate) what they should

teach the children. New GBC men gets voted in without knowing

exactly what is required, and how to perform. etc. etc.


That is only in our current system. When it comes to varnasrama,

we don't even know what, for example, a ksatriya should do,

so appointing someone, even though appropriate, would just

lead to disaster.


What is lacking is education for especially the higher varnas

in society.


Someone might be more brahminical, but unless he gets

proper education, he will just act like a slightly more

intelligent sudra. The current society has a system to

especially stop the intelliectual class from becoming

too intelligent.


As a first step, we need professors in varnasrama.

Without professors, no collage. These scholars

need to make research in different aspects of

varnasrama, to attain their professorship.

We need research in all faucets of varnasrama.


Unfortunately, at least from judging the discussions

in this conference, we still are on the level of

"why varnasrama". There is a conference called

"ksatriya training", but very few devotees appear

to have a clue of what to train to the ksatriyas.


Without training (by brahmanas) -- no varnasrama.

I guess that's why Srila Prabhupada was stressing

eductation, in the form of varnasrama collages.


-- your servant Prsnigarbha das

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> Let's be honest and face reality. It is quite utopian thinking we can

> establish varnasrama in this age of unrest when there are no qualify and

> powerful leaders. Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not advent to establish

> varnarama dharma, though He is God Himself. His prescription is harinam

> sankirtana. If we meditate on and follow siksastaka prayers, all our

> problems will be solved. We are having so much problem in Iskcon because

> of so much envy among the devotees. No atmosphere of trust. Lord Caitanya

> Mahaprabhu said the chanting of the Hare Krishna is the ultimate

> benediction moon. candrika vitaranam vidya vadhujivanam.


As far as I understand, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not preach varnasrama,

since he was living in a varnasrama culture. It might have been that some

thought that the varnasrama culture was the highest goal in itself, and


he was preaching that varnasrama was not the ultimate.


But I agree fully that if we live according to the siksastaka prayers,

all problems would be very easily solved. That problem is that it appears

that there are very few souls who are so advanced. We have to deal with

all kind of persons of all kind of spiritual advancement. We need to

raise their level to a higher level, step by step. Therefore, if we want

the masses to take up Krsna consciousness, we need the step by

step process of purification, which Krsna calls varnasrama.


Without the varnasrama process, a much more limited amount of

spirit souls, thouse who already have reach an high enough

platform, will take up Krsna consciousness. And even of all those

taking it upp, it appears that very few can actually keep it up for

the rest of their lifetime.


Even if we decide to have ISKCON as an elitist movement, where

only those spiritually advanced enough, to follow all the rules,

can be member, we would then need another movement for

the rest.


So the question is whether we should widen ISKCON to incorporate

everyone, or narrow ISKCON to only hold those who are advanced

enough. Which, does not really matter, except for that if the other

movment does become Srila Prabhupada's movement.

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> In my twenty or more years in Iskcon, I have yet to find a concrete

> evidence or example of VAD. Of course in some parts of India, especially

> South India, there are some elements of VAD in some communities. May be we

> should learn from them.


We should just send a brahmana, or a whole bunch, to south India and study

that society before it disappears. Those brahmanas should each write an

academic type report on their particular study when they come back. That


should be approved by other brahminical persons, and then it can be part of

our growing varnasrama library.


> My conclusion is VAD is an impossible reality in an atmosphere of envy and

> lack of honesty. Who will honestly admit they are sudra?. Even someone

> with a vaisya tendency would want to say he is a brahmana or ksatriya. In

> Krishna consciousness, everybody can happily take part in the service of

> Krishna.


Becuase it is so easy to proclaim yourself brahmana, and that is that.

It is not so easy to proclaim yourself professor, or doctor, or lawyer.

To get one of those titles it require a certain procedure of study.

Similary, we could have certain criteria for getting the status of

brahmana and ksatriya. The criteria for vaisya is simple, just

make money.


Ksatriya, for example, must have a certain amount of knowledge

in statemanship etc, and have to be very good in combat, weapons,

or whatever is required in his particular ksatriya field.


A brahmana has to have a specific field of knowledge, where he

is very good, has to be a teacher of that knowledge, has to live

a simple life, and follow other brahminical rules.


The simple suggestion is that if you can live like a brahmana,

do the work of the brahmana, you should be accepted as a brahmama.


We could also have trainee brahmanas and trainee ksatriyas,

persons who are trying to come up to the status of certification,

but have not yet reached that point. These persons study in

the varnasrama collage similarly to any collage studend.


Everyone should be allowed to take up the training for ksatriya

and/or brahmana, but you have to show results in your studies.

If you cannot come up to the standard, you will be asked to

take up some other kind of occupation.


Sorry to say, but people are created different. There is no

escape from that, no matter how much philosophy we



-- your servant Prsnigarbha das




> I am of course open to a more enlightened discussion on VAD.

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>The criteria for vaisya is simple, just make money.


And pay tax, and obey the ksatriyas, and be a responisble person. BTW all

exept sudras are responsible. Sudras are free from the the responsibilities.

So nobody can irresponsibli and abruptly take off responsibility and leave

dependants in chaos.


>Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1997/06/04

>So we have to follow. Mahajana yena gatah sa pantha. Therefore we have

>created these GBC. So they should be very responsible men. Otherwise,

>they will be punished. They will be punished to become a sudra.

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>> _The criteria for vaisya is simple, just make money.


> Well, that's another mISKCONception, if you ask me. It is not that simple.

> In a VA society, both brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisyas may get 2

> initiations, and to be a vaisya requires a special character. In addition,

> many, if not most vaisyas will manage farms, which is not only for making

> money. (I am sure I am not telling you anything you don't know, it is just

> for the record).


You are very right, it is not just to make money. I was thinking more in

terms of determination of varna. The vaisyas also need training.

They also get the sacred thread, but I have to confess I do not

understand what the sacred thread means for the different varnas.


-- your servant Prsnigarbha das

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