Guest guest Posted November 27, 2005 Report Share Posted November 27, 2005 Dear friends, One gentleman dismissed the concept of annual Tithi Pravesha charts in the mail enclosed below. Another gentleman with whom I privately corresponded in the last few weeks regarding Chandra Hari ayanamsa also indicated to me that he could disprove Tithi Pravesha on the lists if he wanted to. So it seems to me like there is a strong bias against Tithi Pravesha in a camp of astrologers. Let me briefly respond. > If we are committed to maintain the sastra foundations of Jyotisha, it is > necessary to have a proper scrutiny of the new methods that are being > created and taught to students as some tradition. Prashant's implied accusation that we are "creating" new methods and teaching them to students "as some tradition" is baseless. He has no basis to draw such a conclusion. I can ask him to apologize for making such a false accusation, but I will go easy on our new friend. Annual Tithi Pravesha chart method is not a "new method". It was not created by Pt Sanjay Rath or I. It is indeed from our tradition. > As for example a > tradition of Jyotisha using the so called "Annual Tithi Pravesa" never > existed anywhere. The fact that Sri Rama's birthday is celebrated on Sukla Navami tithi and Krishna's birthday is celebrated on Krishna Ashtami tithi and not based on the degree of Sun must tell you something. > It could not have as the ancient Sages had > knowledge of the relevant astronomy and would not have blundered. "Annual Tithi Pravesa" does not break any astronomy principles and it is based on good astronomical principles. It is certainly not a blunder as Prashant opines. > When such is the astronomical phenomenon what sanctity is there for > a moment generated by the 365.2563624 (solar year) versus the > 29.530588 lunation relation? Such tithis are there in all lunar months > and when it comes to the month in which somebody is born, both Sun > and Moon will be 15 or 15 degrees away from natal positions. With > such a sthoola return can chart be errected and predicted with Varga > and Arudha? Though the tithi of birth returns in every month, its return in the month of birth is special. When the tithi returns in the month of birth, Sun and Moon may be several deg away from their natal positions as you said. But, why is it so vital that they should be at their natal longitude????? Sun's longitude is one objective metric, but the angular difference between Sun and Moon is another objective metric. Why do you think that that objective metric is useless? Sun takes the form of 12 Adityas in 12 signs. If Sun takes the same Aditya form as at birth (i.e. Sun occupies the same sign as at birth) and then Sun-Moon angular difference returns to its exact natal value, why can't that moment be an important epoch? Why are you so keen on Sun's longitude being the objective metric that should return? Why can't another objective metric be used for return, to define an epoch? > How does a moment qualify to be used as an epoch for looking into future? Any moment by any rationale? Several moments can be defined, but not arbitrarily. When Sun is back in the natal sign, he has the same Aditya form as at birth. Further, if an objective metric based on Sun and Moon returns to its natal value during that month when Sun is back to his Aditya form at birth, it is an important epoch. If S and M are the longitudes of Sun and Moon, then some possible objective metrics are S, M, M-S and M+S. Based on them, we have the Tajika varsha pravesha chakra, Nakshatra pravesha chakra, Tithi pravesha chakra and Yoga pravesha chakra. The kind of matters shown by the epoch till the next epoch would depend on the nature of the objective metric used in the definition of the epoch!! One has to clearly understand the meaning of various objective metrics (e.g. S, M, M-S and M+S), before understanding what kind of matters/events can be seen in the chart cast at that epoch!!!! One cannot say that multiple objective metrics cannot be used. > If any such moment like ATP, Karana and Yoga and Nakshatra pravesa > all can be used for Annual horoscopy, what will be the fate of Jyotisha? Well, the fate/destiny of Jyotisha would be great!! Only thing is that one has to clearly understand what kind of events are shown by what kind of epoch. Read my last paragraph above. > ATP kind of pseudo_Jyotisham, unless eliminated shall make Jyotisha > a laughing stock before the scientific world and also before the genuine > scholars of Jyotisha. Unfortunately, there has been too much of rhetoric like this from one camp of late. They are so indignant about what others do and keep threatening that astrology will become a "laughing stock". This is unfortunate. On examination, I don't find their criticism and concerns reasonable. Their over-confidence in pronouncing strong judgments against techniques that they possibly don't understand that well astonishes me. I can only pray to the Mother and wait for a turn in Her beautiful play. She alone knows what She is doing. Some of us are more optimistic and see a renaissance in Jyotisham coming up in the next 2-3 decades, as more and more secret techniques from tradition become common knowledge and all the knowledge of rishis is integrated into one coherent understanding. If someone says that the technique of ATP is "pseudo Jyotisham", I have nothing to say to them. Obviously, such a person is highly biased and opinionated. It is neither possible nor necessary to convince such a person that ATP is not "pseudo-Jyotisham". May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha ------------------------------- Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ------------------------------- > Dear friends, > > If we are committed to maintain the sastra foundations of Jyotisha, it is necessary to have a proper scrutiny of the new methods that are being created and taught to students as some tradition. As for example a tradition of Jyotisha using the so called "Annual Tithi Pravesa" never existed anywhere. It could not have as the ancient Sages had knowledge of the relevant astronomy and would not have blundered. > > Look at a basic text of astronomy. We can know that the the tithis of 12 deg reccur every lunar month and at the end of the solar year we have a partial lunar month of 365.2563624 - 354 days = nearly 11 tithis comes as a balance in every solar year considered. This is a well known calendar phenomena and at successive solar returns, Moon and tithi go on shifting and such relative change is the basis of solar return charts of which a wonderful treatment can be found in the books of Dr.KS Charak. > > Above calendar phenomena led to the practice of intercalations and thus we came to have yugas of 5 years, 4 years, 6 years, 8 years, 11 and 19 at various stages of growth of ancient astronomy. > > When such is the astronomical phenomenon what sanctity is there for a moment generated by the 365.2563624 (solar year) versus the 29.530588 lunation relation? Such tithis are there in all lunar months and when it comes to the month in which somebody is born, both Sun and Moon will be 15 or 15 degrees away from natal positions. With such a sthoola return can chart be errected and predicted with Varga and Arudha? > > If any such moment like ATP, Karana and Yoga and Nakshatra pravesa all can be used for Annual horoscopy, what will be the fate of Jyotisha? > > How does a moment qualify to be used as an epoch for looking into future? Any moment by any rationale? > > ATP kind of pseudo_Jyotisham, unless eliminated shall make Jyotisha a laughing stock before the scientific world and also before the genuine scholars of Jyotisha. > > Prashant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 Dear Prashant ji, Thank you for your reply. Here are my views. > Dear friends, > > 1. Sun has only 12 forms? What does the great epic Mahabharata and > the Puranas say? 108 names of the Aditya are given in the epics and > Puranas. Why not the return based on that? Well, there may be millions of forms of Sun. But, it is not my invention that twleve Adityas and eleven Rudras are a fundamental concept of Hinduism. > 2. And also 360 degrees have been defined as the spokes of the > Kalachakra - Can it be ignored in annual horoscopy? Well, Sun and Moon are the keepers of time. Sun is the soul and Moon is the mind. We are ignoring Moon and going solely by Sun when we define Tajika varsha pravesha chakras that you supported. If ignoring 360 degrees is bad, is ignoring Moon any better? If we want to define an annual epoch that matches all the objective metrics of the natal chart, it is not possible. You have to pick some metrics that are going to match the natal chart values and leave the rest. > 3. Where is the traditional reference to ATP? It is from our tradition. The knowledge was transferred by mouth by a successions of gurus to students. > 4. What happens when the tithi repeats in a solar month? How the > form of Aditya will be taken care of? When Sun has the same Aditya form and the angular difference returns twice, there are different options. There is guidance from tradition on what to do in those situations, but it MAY need refinement through research. > 6. Can we see any reference to the kind of "Ramanavami" jyotishamin > any traditional work? Unfortunately, not to my knowledge. That way, even Tajika varsha phal charts were not mentioned in any ancient works of Maharshis. The earliest reference I believe is Tajika Neelakanthi, which is barely a few hundred years old. > In fact Ramanavami never takes care of the form of > Sun. Chaitra_sukla_navami falls in Pisces and also in Aries and then > what theory of Annual Tithi Pravesa can be created quoting Sage Valmiki? You are right. But, it may be due to corruption in tradition. Some people change months from Phalguna to Chaitra, from Chaitra to Vaisakha etc on New Moon day, some people on the next Full Moon day and some people on the next solar ingress day. All the traditions are alive in some corners of India. Thus, the way we celebrate Rama's birthday today may be imperfect. But, despite imperfections, the fact remains that it has to do with TITHI and not the degrees of Sun! > 7. What is the objective matrix (I am not referring to objectice metric, that > comes over matrix) of Jyotisha? Is it not the orbit defined as 360 degrees > in scriptures and 21600 kalas in ancient works like Suryasiddhanta? How > many objective metrics can be derived over the orbital matrix? Can all that > be used for annual horoscopy? Why not? Moon's nakshatram and Sun-Moon tithi are fundamental metrics. Why not take their respective returns instead of just Sun's longitude? > 9. Celebrated birth tithis like Durgashtami, Kalashtami, Sivaratri etc occur > every month. And is simply based on lunar month and has no relevance to > the 12 forms of Aditya or 108 forms of Aditya or 21600 forms of Aditya. Well, even for people, we have monthly TP chart that comes every month. But, one of them is the most important and it is celebrated as annual TP chart (annual birthday). Though every Chaturthi is a day to worship Ganesha, Chaturthi in one particular month is more important. Though every Ashtami is a day to worship Durga, Ashtami in one particular month is more important. Though every Chaturdasi is a day to worship Shiva, Chaturdasi in one particular month is maha shiva ratri and is more important. > Now readers can judge the merits of the Annual Tithi Pravesam by themselves. Yes, they can! > Prashant May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha ------------------------------- Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ------------------------------- > Dear friends, > > 1. Sun has only 12 forms? What does the great epic Mahabharata and the Puranas say? 108 names of the Aditya are given in the epics and Puranas. Why not the return based on that? > > 2. And also 360 degrees have been defined as the spokes of the Kalachakra - Can it be ignored in annual horoscopy? > > 3. Where is the traditional reference to ATP? > > 4. What happens when the tithi repeats in a solar month? How the form of Aditya will be taken care of? > > 5. Aditya has His forms in all the 21600 kalas of the Zodiac and He in unison with Chandra leads to manifestation of the 16 kalas that reside in tithis of every month. Tithi is a monthly phenomenon and other astronomical aspects like return of tithi cycle and eclipses after 19 years I have already explained in my earlier posting. > > 6. Can we see any reference to the kind of "Ramanavami" jyotisham in any traditional work? In fact Ramanavami never takes care of the form of Sun. Chaitra_sukla_navami falls in Pisces and also in Aries and then what theory of Annual Tithi Pravesa can be created quoting Sage Valmiki? > > 7. What is the objective matrix (I am not referring to objectice metric, that comes over matrix) of Jyotisha? Is it not the orbit defined as 360 degrees in scriptures and 21600 kalas in ancient works like Suryasiddhanta? How many objective metrics can be derived over the orbital matrix? Can all that be used for annual horoscopy? > > 8. All tithi classifications and attributes are based on the monthly phenomenon. Tithi is unique when mentioned with the Samvatsara and linked to the Yugas when it refers to an event like birth. That is how it has been used in epics and Puranas. > > 9. Celebrated birth tithis like Durgashtami, Kalashtami, Sivaratri etc occur every month. And is simply based on lunar month and has no relevance to the 12 forms of Aditya or 108 forms of Aditya or 21600 forms of Aditya. > > Now readers can judge the merits of the Annual Tithi Pravesam by themselves. > > Prashant > > > > > > > vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@c...> wrote:> >> > Dear friends,> > > > One gentleman dismissed the concept of annual Tithi Pravesha charts in the mail enclosed below. Another gentleman with whom I privately corresponded in the last few weeks regarding Chandra Hari ayanamsa also indicated to me that he could disprove Tithi Pravesha on the lists if he wanted to. So it seems to me like there is a strong bias against Tithi Pravesha in a camp of astrologers.> > > > Let me briefly respond.> > > > > If we are committed to maintain the sastra foundations of Jyotisha, it is> > > necessary to have a proper scrutiny of the new methods that are being> > > created and taught to students as some tradition.> > > > Prashant's implied accusation that we are "creating" new methods and teaching them to students "as some tradition" is baseless. He has no basis to draw such a conclusion. I can ask him to apologize for making such a false accusation, but I will go easy on our new friend.> > > > Annual Tithi Pravesha chart method is not a "new method". It was not created by Pt Sanjay Rath or I. It is indeed from our tradition.> > > > > As for example a> > > tradition of Jyotisha using the so called "Annual Tithi Pravesa" never> > > existed anywhere.> > > > The fact that Sri Rama's birthday is celebrated on Sukla Navami tithi and Krishna's birthday is celebrated on Krishna Ashtami tithi and not based on the degree of Sun must tell you something.> > > > > It could not have as the ancient Sages had> > > knowledge of the relevant astronomy and would not have blundered. > > > > "Annual Tithi Pravesa" does not break any astronomy principles and it is based on good astronomical principles. It is certainly not a blunder as Prashant opines.> > > > > When such is the astronomical phenomenon what sanctity is there for> > > a moment generated by the 365.2563624 (solar year) versus the> > > 29.530588 lunation relation? Such tithis are there in all lunar months> > > and when it comes to the month in which somebody is born, both Sun> > > and Moon will be 15 or 15 degrees away from natal positions. With> > > such a sthoola return can chart be errected and predicted with Varga> > > and Arudha? > > > > Though the tithi of birth returns in every month, its return in the month of birth is special. When the tithi returns in the month of birth, Sun and Moon may be several deg away from their natal positions as you said. But, why is it so vital that they should be at their natal longitude?????> > > > Sun's longitude is one objective metric, but the angular difference between Sun and Moon is another objective metric. Why do you think that that objective metric is useless?> > > > Sun takes the form of 12 Adityas in 12 signs. If Sun takes the same Aditya form as at birth (i.e. Sun occupies the same sign as at birth) and then Sun-Moon angular difference returns to its exact natal value, why can't that moment be an important epoch? Why are you so keen on Sun's longitude being the objective metric that should return? Why can't another objective metric be used for return, to define an epoch?> > > > > How does a moment qualify to be used as an epoch for looking into future? Any moment by any rationale? > > > > Several moments can be defined, but not arbitrarily. When Sun is back in the natal sign, he has the same Aditya form as at birth. Further, if an objective metric based on Sun and Moon returns to its natal value during that month when Sun is back to his Aditya form at birth, it is an important epoch. If S and M are the longitudes of Sun and Moon, then some possible objective metrics are S, M, M-S and M+S. Based on them, we have the Tajika varsha pravesha chakra, Nakshatra pravesha chakra, Tithi pravesha chakra and Yoga pravesha chakra.> > > > The kind of matters shown by the epoch till the next epoch would depend on the nature of the objective metric used in the definition of the epoch!! One has to clearly understand the meaning of various objective metrics (e.g. S, M, M-S and M+S), before understanding what kind of matters/events can be seen in the chart cast at that epoch!!!! One cannot say that multiple objective metrics cannot be used.> > > > > If any such moment like ATP, Karana and Yoga and Nakshatra pravesa> > > all can be used for Annual horoscopy, what will be the fate of Jyotisha? > > > > Well, the fate/destiny of Jyotisha would be great!! Only thing is that one has to clearly understand what kind of events are shown by what kind of epoch. Read my last paragraph above.> > > > > ATP kind of pseudo_Jyotisham, unless eliminated shall make Jyotisha> > > a laughing stock before the scientific world and also before the genuine> > > scholars of Jyotisha. > > > > Unfortunately, there has been too much of rhetoric like this from one camp of late. They are so indignant about what others do and keep threatening that astrology will become a "laughing stock". This is unfortunate. On examination, I don't find their criticism and concerns reasonable. Their over-confidence in pronouncing strong judgments against techniques that they possibly don't understand that well astonishes me. I can only pray to the Mother and wait for a turn in Her beautiful play. She alone knows what She is doing.> > > > Some of us are more optimistic and see a renaissance in Jyotisham coming up in the next 2-3 decades, as more and more secret techniques from tradition become common knowledge and all the knowledge of rishis is integrated into one coherent understanding.> > > > If someone says that the technique of ATP is "pseudo Jyotisham", I have nothing to say to them. Obviously, such a person is highly biased and opinionated. It is neither possible nor necessary to convince such a person that ATP is not "pseudo-Jyotisham".> > > > May Jupiter's light shine on us, > > Narasimha> > -------------------------------> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org> > -------------------------------> > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > If we are committed to maintain the sastra foundations of Jyotisha, it is necessary to have a proper scrutiny of the new methods that are being created and taught to students as some tradition. As for example a tradition of Jyotisha using the so called "Annual Tithi Pravesa" never existed anywhere. It could not have as the ancient Sages had knowledge of the relevant astronomy and would not have blundered. > > > > > > Look at a basic text of astronomy. We can know that the the tithis of 12 deg reccur every lunar month and at the end of the solar year we have a partial lunar month of 365.2563624 - 354 days = nearly 11 tithis comes as a balance in every solar year considered. This is a well known calendar phenomena and at successive solar returns, Moon and tithi go on shifting and such relative change is the basis of solar return charts of which a wonderful treatment can be found in the books of Dr.KS Charak. > > > > > > Above calendar phenomena led to the practice of intercalations and thus we came to have yugas of 5 years, 4 years, 6 years, 8 years, 11 and 19 at various stages of growth of ancient astronomy. > > > > > > When such is the astronomical phenomenon what sanctity is there for a moment generated by the 365.2563624 (solar year) versus the 29.530588 lunation relation? Such tithis are there in all lunar months and when it comes to the month in which somebody is born, both Sun and Moon will be 15 or 15 degrees away from natal positions. With such a sthoola return can chart be errected and predicted with Varga and Arudha? > > > > > > If any such moment like ATP, Karana and Yoga and Nakshatra pravesa all can be used for Annual horoscopy, what will be the fate of Jyotisha? > > > > > > How does a moment qualify to be used as an epoch for looking into future? Any moment by any rationale? > > > > > > ATP kind of pseudo_Jyotisham, unless eliminated shall make Jyotisha a laughing stock before the scientific world and also before the genuine scholars of Jyotisha. > > > > > > Prashant> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Dear Narasimha Prabhu, Namaskar. Hare Krishna! Thank you for uncovering and bringing this beautiful technique to the forefront. I for one am VERY grateful to you for doing that (it may be my bias but ATP does appear more Vedic to me). Thank you! Humbly, Adi Purusha Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Dear Sir, Thank you for raising some interesting points of discussion. In my humble opinion, those who, due to whatever reasoning they may hold to be correct, ignore the annual Tithi Pravesh and its companion dasa system (Tithi Ashtottari dasa, as taught in our SJC tradition), are losing out on perhaps one of the most poignant and accurate predictive systems that we have in Jyotish. Persons who, like myself, have many clients who rely on accurate predictions and who incorporate the ATP in their regular work, almost never go wrong in the area of prediction. In consideration of this, does the merit of sound argument have any value, when the objective of critical judgment and prediction is achieved? These are my thoughts for the day, Thank you, Robert At 06:43 PM 11/27/2005, you wrote: Dear friends, 1. Sun has only 12 forms? What does the great epic Mahabharata and the Puranas say? 108 names of the Aditya are given in the epics and Puranas. Why not the return based on that? 2. And also 360 degrees have been defined as the spokes of the Kalachakra - Can it be ignored in annual horoscopy? 3. Where is the traditional reference to ATP? 4. What happens when the tithi repeats in a solar month? How the form of Aditya will be taken care of? 5. Aditya has His forms in all the 21600 kalas of the Zodiac and He in unison with Chandra leads to manifestation of the 16 kalas that reside in tithis of every month. Tithi is a monthly phenomenon and other astronomical aspects like return of tithi cycle and eclipses after! 19 years I have already explained in my earlier posting. 6. Can we see any reference to the kind of "Ramanavami" jyotisham in any traditional work? In fact Ramanavami never takes care of the form of Sun. Chaitra_sukla_navami falls in Pisces and also in Aries and then what theory of Annual Tithi Pravesa can be created quoting Sage Valmiki? 7. What is the objective matrix (I am not referring to objectice metric, that comes over matrix) of Jyotisha? Is it not the orbit defined as 360 degrees in scriptures and 21600 kalas in ancient works like Suryasiddhanta? How many objective metrics can be derived over the orbital matrix? Can all that be used for annual horoscopy? 8. All tithi classifications and attributes are based on the monthly phenomenon. Tithi is unique when mentioned with the Samvatsara and linked to the Yugas when it ref! ers to an event like birth. That is how it has been used in epics and Puranas. 9. Celebrated birth tithis like Durgashtami, Kalashtami, Sivaratri etc occur every month. And is simply based on lunar month and has no relevance to the 12 forms of Aditya or 108 forms of Aditya or 21600 forms of Aditya. Now readers can judge the merits of the Annual Tithi Pravesam by themselves. Prashant vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@c...> wrote: > > Dear friends, > > One gentleman dismissed the concept of annual Tithi Pravesha charts in the mail enclosed below. Another gentleman with whom I privately corresponded in the last few weeks regarding Chandra Hari ayanamsa also indicated to me that he could disprove Tithi Pravesha on the ! lists if he wanted to. So it seems to me like there is a strong bias against Tithi Pravesha in a camp of astrologers. > > Let me briefly respond. > > > If we are committed to maintain the sastra foundations of Jyotisha, it is > > necessary to have a proper scrutiny of the new methods that are being > > created and taught to students as some tradition. > > Prashant's implied accusation that we are "creating" new methods and teaching them to students "as some tradition" is baseless. He has no basis to draw such a conclusion. I can ask him to apologize for making such a false accusation, but I will go easy on our new friend. > > Annual Tithi Pravesha chart method is not a "new method". It was not created by Pt Sanjay Rath or I. It is indeed from our tradition. > > > As for example a > > tradition of Jyotisha using the so called "Annual Tithi Pravesa" never > > existed any! where. > > The fact that Sri Rama's birthday is celebrate d on Sukla Navami tithi and Krishna's birthday is celebrated on Krishna Ashtami tithi and not based on the degree of Sun must tell you something. > > > It could not have as the ancient Sages had > > knowledge of the relevant astronomy and would not have blundered. > > "Annual Tithi Pravesa" does not break any astronomy principles and it is based on good astronomical principles. It is certainly not a blunder as Prashant opines. > > > When such is the astronomical phenomenon what sanctity is there for > > a moment generated by the 365.2563624 (solar year) versus the > > 29.530588 lunation relation? Such tithis are there in all lunar months > > and when it comes to the month in which somebody is born, both Sun > > and Moon will be 15 or 15 degrees away from natal positions. With > > such a sthoola return can chart be errected and predicted with Varga > > and Arudha? ! > > Though the tithi of birth returns in every month, its return in the month of birth is special. When the tithi returns in the month of birth, Sun and Moon may be several deg away from their natal positions as you said. But, why is it so vital that they should be at their natal longitude????? > > Sun's longitude is one objective metric, but the angular difference between Sun and Moon is another objective metric. Why do you think that that objective metric is useless? > > Sun takes the form of 12 Adityas in 12 signs. If Sun takes the same Aditya form as at birth (i.e. Sun occupies the same sign as at birth) and then Sun-Moon angular difference returns to its exact natal value, why can't that moment be an important epoch? Why are you so keen on Sun's longitude being the objective metric that should return? Why can't another objective metric be used for return, to define an epoch? > > > How does a moment qualify to be used ! as an epoch for looking into future? Any moment by any rationale? > > Several moments can be defined, but not arbitrarily. When Sun is back in the natal sign, he has the same Aditya form as at birth. Further, if an objective metric based on Sun and Moon returns to its natal value during that month when Sun is back to his Aditya form at birth, it is an important epoch. If S and M are the longitudes of Sun and Moon, then some possible objective metrics are S, M, M-S and M+S. Based on them, we have the Tajika varsha pravesha chakra, Nakshatra pravesha chakra, Tithi pravesha chakra and Yoga pravesha chakra. > > The kind of matters shown by the epoch till the next epoch would depend on the nature of the objective metric used in the definition of the epoch!! One has to clearly understand the meaning of various objective metrics (e.g. S, M, M-S and M+S), before understanding what kind of matters/events can be seen in the chart cast at that epoch!!!! One cannot say that multiple objective metrics cannot be used. > ! > > If any such moment like ATP, Karana and Yoga and Nakshatra pravesa > > all can be used for Annual horoscopy, what will be the fate of Jyotisha? > > Well, the fate/destiny of Jyotisha would be great!! Only thing is that one has to clearly understand what kind of events are shown by what kind of epoch. Read my last paragraph above. > > > ATP kind of pseudo_Jyotisham, unless eliminated shall make Jyotisha > > a laughing stock before the scientific world and also before the genuine > > scholars of Jyotisha. > > Unfortunately, there has been too much of rhetoric like this from one camp of late. They are so indignant about what others do and keep threatening that astrology will become a "laughing stock". This is unfortunate. On examination, I don't find their criticism and concerns reasonable. Their over-confidence in pronouncing strong judgments against techniques that they possibly don't understand! that well astonishes me. I can only pray to the Mother and wait for a turn in Her beautiful play. She alone knows what She is doing. > > Some of us are more optimistic and see a renaissance in Jyotisham coming up in the next 2-3 decades, as more and more secret techniques from tradition become common knowledge and all the knowledge of rishis is integrated into one coherent understanding. > > If someone says that the technique of ATP is "pseudo Jyotisham", I have nothing to say to them. Obviously, such a person is highly biased and opinionated. It is neither possible nor necessary to convince such a person that ATP is not "pseudo-Jyotisham". > > May Jupiter's light shine on us, > Narasimha > ------------------------------- > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > ------------------! ------------- > > > Dear friends, > > > > If we are committed to maintain the sastra foundations of Jyotisha, it is necessary to have a proper scrutiny of the new methods that are being created and taught to students as some tradition. As for example a tradition of Jyotisha using the so called "Annual Tithi Pravesa" never existed anywhere. It could not have as the ancient Sages had knowledge of the relevant astronomy and would not have blundered. > > > > Look at a basic text of astronomy. We can know that the the tithis of 12 deg reccur every lunar month and at the end of the solar year we have a partial lunar month of 365.2563624 - 354 days = nearly 11 tithis comes as a balance in every solar year considered. This is a well known calendar phenomena and at successive solar returns, Moon and tithi go on shifting and such relative change is the basis of solar return charts of which a wond! erful treatment can be found in the books of Dr.KS Charak. > &g t; > > Above calendar phenomena led to the practice of intercalations and thus we came to have yugas of 5 years, 4 years, 6 years, 8 years, 11 and 19 at various stages of growth of ancient astronomy. > > > > When such is the astronomical phenomenon what sanctity is there for a moment generated by the 365.2563624 (solar year) versus the 29.530588 lunation relation? Such tithis are there in all lunar months and when it comes to the month in which somebody is born, both Sun and Moon will be 15 or 15 degrees away from natal positions. With such a sthoola return can chart be errected and predicted with Varga and Arudha? > > > > If any such moment like ATP, Karana and Yoga and Nakshatra pravesa all can be used for Annual horoscopy, what will be the fate of Jyotisha? > > > > How does a moment qualify to be used as an epoch for looking into future? Any moment by any rationale? > > > > ATP kind ! of pseudo_Jyotisham, unless eliminated shall make Jyotisha a laughing stock before the scientific world and also before the genuine scholars of Jyotisha. > > > > Prashant > Archives: vedic astrology Group info: vedic astrology/info.html To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Visit your group " vedic astrology" on the web. vedic astrology Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty member, SJC and ACVA Author, The Spiritual Dimensions of Vedic Astrology visit: http://www.robertkoch.com Email: rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com Ph: 541.318.0248 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 dear robertji, > In consideration of this, does the merit of sound argument have any > value, when the objective of critical judgment and prediction is achieved? > well said. ultimately, the bottom line, for any person approaching astrolger and also for an astrologer, is correct analysis and prediction irrespective of ancient classics. at the same time, from the date of introduction of ancient classics lot of changes have taken place in the world in particular the society and their rules. as such, i think we have to consider the present circumstances in applying the ancient classic principles with, may be, some amendments. with kind regards, rtv vedic astrology, Robert Koch <rk@r...> wrote: > > Dear Sir, > > Thank you for raising some interesting points of discussion. > > In my humble opinion, those who, due to whatever reasoning they may > hold to be correct, ignore the annual Tithi Pravesh and its companion > dasa system (Tithi Ashtottari dasa, as taught in our SJC tradition), > are losing out on perhaps one of the most poignant and accurate > predictive systems that we have in Jyotish. Persons who, like > myself, have many clients who rely on accurate predictions and who > incorporate the ATP in their regular work, almost never go wrong in > the area of prediction. > > In consideration of this, does the merit of sound argument have any > value, when the objective of critical judgment and prediction is achieved? > > These are my thoughts for the day, > Thank you, > > Robert > > At 06:43 PM 11/27/2005, you wrote: > > >Dear friends, > > > >1. Sun has only 12 forms? What does the great epic Mahabharata and > >the Puranas say? 108 names of the Aditya are given in the epics and > >Puranas. Why not the return based on that? > > > >2. And also 360 degrees have been defined as the spokes of the > >Kalachakra - Can it be ignored in annual horoscopy? > > > >3. Where is the traditional reference to ATP? > > > >4. What happens when the tithi repeats in a solar month? How the > >form of Aditya will be taken care of? > > > >5. Aditya has His forms in all the 21600 kalas of the Zodiac and He > >in unison with Chandra leads to manifestation of the 16 kalas that > >reside in tithis of every month. Tithi is a monthly phenomenon and > >other astronomical aspects like return of tithi cycle and eclipses > >after! 19 years I have already explained in my earlier posting. > > > >6. Can we see any reference to the kind of "Ramanavami" jyotisham in > >any traditional work? In fact Ramanavami never takes care of the > >form of Sun. Chaitra_sukla_navami falls in Pisces and also in Aries > >and then what theory of Annual Tithi Pravesa can be created quoting > >Sage Valmiki? > > > >7. What is the objective matrix (I am not referring to objectice > >metric, that comes over matrix) of Jyotisha? Is it not the orbit > >defined as 360 degrees in scriptures and 21600 kalas in ancient > >works like Suryasiddhanta? How many objective metrics can be derived > >over the orbital matrix? Can all that be used for annual horoscopy? > > > >8. All tithi classifications and attributes are based on the monthly > >phenomenon. Tithi is unique when mentioned with the Samvatsara and > >linked to the Yugas when it ref! ers to an event like birth. That is > >how it has been used in epics and Puranas. > > > >9. Celebrated birth tithis like Durgashtami, Kalashtami, Sivaratri > >etc occur every month. And is simply based on lunar month and has no > >relevance to the 12 forms of Aditya or 108 forms of Aditya or 21600 > >forms of Aditya. > > > >Now readers can judge the merits of the Annual Tithi Pravesam by themselves. > > > >Prashant > > > > > > > > > > > > > >vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" > ><pvr@c...> wrote: > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > One gentleman dismissed the concept of annual Tithi Pravesha > > charts in the mail enclosed below. Another gentleman with whom I > > privately corresponded in the last few weeks regarding Chandra Hari > > ayanamsa also indicated to me that he could disprove Tithi Pravesha > > on the ! lists if he wanted to. So it seems to me like there is a > > strong bias against Tithi Pravesha in a camp of astrologers. > > > > > > Let me briefly respond. > > > > > > > If we are committed to maintain the sastra foundations of Jyotisha, it is > > > > necessary to have a proper scrutiny of the new methods that are being > > > > created and taught to students as some tradition. > > > > > > Prashant's implied accusation that we are "creating" new methods > > and teaching them to students "as some tradition" is baseless. He > > has no basis to draw such a conclusion. I can ask him to apologize > > for making such a false accusation, but I will go easy on our new friend. > > > > > > Annual Tithi Pravesha chart method is not a "new method". It was > > not created by Pt Sanjay Rath or I. It is indeed from our tradition. > > > > > > > As for example a > > > > tradition of Jyotisha using the so called "Annual Tithi Pravesa" never > > > > existed any! where. > > > > > > The fact that Sri Rama's birthday is celebrate d on Sukla Navami > > tithi and Krishna's birthday is celebrated on Krishna Ashtami tithi > > and not based on the degree of Sun must tell you something. > > > > > > > It could not have as the ancient Sages had > > > > knowledge of the relevant astronomy and would not have blundered. > > > > > > "Annual Tithi Pravesa" does not break any astronomy principles > > and it is based on good astronomical principles. It is certainly > > not a blunder as Prashant opines. > > > > > > > When such is the astronomical phenomenon what sanctity is there for > > > > a moment generated by the 365.2563624 (solar year) versus the > > > > 29.530588 lunation relation? Such tithis are there in all lunar months > > > > and when it comes to the month in which somebody is born, both Sun > > > > and Moon will be 15 or 15 degrees away from natal positions. With > > > > such a sthoola return can chart be errected and predicted with Varga > > > > and Arudha? > >! > > > > Though the tithi of birth returns in every month, its return in > > the month of birth is special. When the tithi returns in the month > > of birth, Sun and Moon may be several deg away from their natal > > positions as you said. But, why is it so vital that they should be > > at their natal longitude????? > > > > > > Sun's longitude is one objective metric, but the angular > > difference between Sun and Moon is another objective metric. Why do > > you think that that objective metric is useless? > > > > > > Sun takes the form of 12 Adityas in 12 signs. If Sun takes the > > same Aditya form as at birth (i.e. Sun occupies the same sign as at > > birth) and then Sun-Moon angular difference returns to its exact > > natal value, why can't that moment be an important epoch? Why are > > you so keen on Sun's longitude being the objective metric that > > should return? Why can't another objective metric be used for > > return, to define an epoch? > > > > > > > How does a moment qualify to be used ! as an epoch for looking > > into future? Any moment by any rationale? > > > > > > Several moments can be defined, but not arbitrarily. When Sun is > > back in the natal sign, he has the same Aditya form as at birth. > > Further, if an objective metric based on Sun and Moon returns to > > its natal value during that month when Sun is back to his Aditya > > form at birth, it is an important epoch. If S and M are the > > longitudes of Sun and Moon, then some possible objective metrics > > are S, M, M-S and M+S. Based on them, we have the Tajika varsha > > pravesha chakra, Nakshatra pravesha chakra, Tithi pravesha chakra > > and Yoga pravesha chakra. > > > > > > The kind of matters shown by the epoch till the next epoch would > > depend on the nature of the objective metric used in the definition > > of the epoch!! One has to clearly understand the meaning of various > > objective metrics (e.g. S, M, M-S and M+S), before understanding > > what kind of matters/events can be seen in the chart cast at that > > epoch!!!! One cannot say that multiple objective metrics cannot be used. > > > > >! > > If any such moment like ATP, Karana and Yoga and Nakshatra pravesa > > > > all can be used for Annual horoscopy, what will be the fate of Jyotisha? > > > > > > Well, the fate/destiny of Jyotisha would be great!! Only thing is > > that one has to clearly understand what kind of events are shown by > > what kind of epoch. Read my last paragraph above. > > > > > > > ATP kind of pseudo_Jyotisham, unless eliminated shall make Jyotisha > > > > a laughing stock before the scientific world and also before the genuine > > > > scholars of Jyotisha. > > > > > > Unfortunately, there has been too much of rhetoric like this from > > one camp of late. They are so indignant about what others do and > > keep threatening that astrology will become a "laughing stock". > > This is unfortunate. On examination, I don't find their criticism > > and concerns reasonable. Their over-confidence in pronouncing > > strong judgments against techniques that they possibly don't > > understand! that well astonishes me. I can only pray to the Mother > > and wait for a turn in Her beautiful play. She alone knows what She is doing. > > > > > > Some of us are more optimistic and see a renaissance in Jyotisham > > coming up in the next 2-3 decades, as more and more secret > > techniques from tradition become common knowledge and all the > > knowledge of rishis is integrated into one coherent understanding. > > > > > > If someone says that the technique of ATP is "pseudo Jyotisham", > > I have nothing to say to them. Obviously, such a person is highly > > biased and opinionated. It is neither possible nor necessary to > > convince such a person that ATP is not "pseudo-Jyotisham". > > > > > > May Jupiter's light shine on us, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------------------------- > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ------------------! ----------- -- > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > > > > > If we are committed to maintain the sastra foundations of > > Jyotisha, it is necessary to have a proper scrutiny of the new > > methods that are being created and taught to students as some > > tradition. As for example a tradition of Jyotisha using the so > > called "Annual Tithi Pravesa" never existed anywhere. It could not > > have as the ancient Sages had knowledge of the relevant astronomy > > and would not have blundered. > > > > > > > > Look at a basic text of astronomy. We can know that the the > > tithis of 12 deg reccur every lunar month and at the end of the > > solar year we have a partial lunar month of 365.2563624 - 354 days > > = nearly 11 tithis comes as a balance in every solar year > > considered. This is a well known calendar phenomena and at > > successive solar returns, Moon and tithi go on shifting and such > > relative change is the basis of solar return charts of which a > > wond! erful treatment can be found in the books of Dr.KS Charak. > > > &g > >t; > > > > Above calendar phenomena led to the practice of intercalations > > and thus we came to have yugas of 5 years, 4 years, 6 years, 8 > > years, 11 and 19 at various stages of growth of ancient astronomy. > > > > > > > > When such is the astronomical phenomenon what sanctity is there > > for a moment generated by the 365.2563624 (solar year) versus the > > 29.530588 lunation relation? Such tithis are there in all lunar > > months and when it comes to the month in which somebody is born, > > both Sun and Moon will be 15 or 15 degrees away from natal > > positions. With such a sthoola return can chart be errected and > > predicted with Varga and Arudha? > > > > > > > > If any such moment like ATP, Karana and Yoga and Nakshatra > > pravesa all can be used for Annual horoscopy, what will be the fate > > of Jyotisha? > > > > > > > > How does a moment qualify to be used as an epoch for looking > > into future? Any moment by any rationale? > > > > > > > > ATP kind ! of pseudo_Jyotisham, unless eliminated shall make > > Jyotisha a laughing stock before the scientific world and also > > before the genuine scholars of Jyotisha. > > > > > > > > Prashant > > > > > > > > >Archives: > ><vedic- astrology>vedic astrology > > > >Group info: > ><vedic- astrology/info.html>vedic- astrology/info.html > > > >To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > > >....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > > > > > > * Visit your group > > "<vedic astrology>vedic astrology" on the web. > > * > > * > > * > > <vedic astrology? subject=Un>vedic astrology > > > > * > > * Your use of is subject to the > > <> > > > > > >---------- > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer > Faculty member, SJC and ACVA > Author, The Spiritual Dimensions of Vedic Astrology > visit: http://www.robertkoch.com > Email: rk@r... > Ph: 541.318.0248 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I too agree with Adi Purushaji on ATP. I hold Narasimha Rao's views on Lahiri ayanamsa and Varga chart matters also. Hri das - apd vedic astrology Tuesday, November 29, 2005 3:45 PM [vedic astrology] Re: Can there be Annual Tithi Pravesa? Dear Narasimha Prabhu,Namaskar. Hare Krishna!Thank you for uncovering and bringing this beautiful technique to theforefront. I for one am VERY grateful to you for doing that (it may be mybias but ATP does appear more Vedic to me).Thank you!Humbly,Adi Purusha Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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