Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Om Subrahmanyaya Namah Dear Sri Narasimhaji, Namaste. I think once we quote the great Varahamihira we need not quote other texts : -) He says that He doesn't add anything of his own but only using a gist of all texts of Maharshis. Again, many times He says that `Satyacharya' or `VishnuGupta' says so. He used the word `vyanjana' and that's enough to prove that Sri Visti couldn't get it right. Now why He couldn't accept this etc depend on many other factors. Actually you are a great great scholar in astrology `as well'. I'm surprised to see the way the discussion on karaka for celibacy goes. Actually celebacy is not a state itself but a state of absense of `something' For example, there is nothing called darkness, but it's only the absense of light. Having gone through Brihajjatakam, I find many combinations of Mars indicating excess of affairs. For example, if the 7th bhava falls in Kuja kshetra or Kuja navamsha, Varahamihira says that the spouce will be addicted to other women (streelolah). Then for Kuja in swa-trimshamsha He says He'll be with wife. Even for Kuja Dosha , I have noticed that it can give an affair around the age of 20-22 and if this breaks then the marriage extends for long.(In most cases it breaks) Or in many cases it gives love marriages. One combination given for celibacy, by the great Varahamihira doesn't have any involvement of Kuja in it. Instead, it's Chandra in Dhanu/Meena navamsha aspected by `Venus' herself (In this context also, please see that it's only an absense hence we dont need a karaka for that). Result is the person will a celibate because of the absense of `kamavikara' or sexual desire. Sri Zoran's logic of Kuja having maraka places for Venus also do not appeal to `me'.(And it's my personal outlook) Apply the same principles for other bhavas (although not maraka stanas, you will get dire malefic lords), what's the result ? It's actually the dire maleficence of Kuja that proves fatal, following sholkas. Kuja wherever He's, in most cases is detrimental to that House, this preliminary lesson is enough. (BTW, I have read Sri Narasimhaji , Mars (and if my memory is correct Ju as well) in a venusian amsha in the 2nd from Karakamsha can make one involved in many `affairs') This is what I think, hope the same is acceptable to you as well. Best Wishes, Saaji vedic astrology, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@c...> wrote: > Namaste Visti, > > > Dear Chandrashekhar and Narasimha, Namaskar > > The highlighted portion about people's minds was not meant for you, but all > > the other translators of the word Guhya in the classical books. I'm sorry if > > you took this phrase wrongly upon you. > > Well, thanks for the clarification. But I am even more offended now. > > It is well within your right to believe in what you *think* your guru taught you. But, you have no business speculating about the mindsets of people who translate otherwise. Scholars translated Guhya the way they did because it is the only correct way and because other classics used far less ambiguous words to make things clearer. They did so for valid and intelligent reasons. It is certainly not because their "mind is on sex" as your slur says. Your phrase is offensive even if it was not meant for Chandrashekhar ji and me. > > For example, the great Dr. B. Suryanarain Row (grandfather of Dr. Raman) associated the term "sexual organs" with Scorpio in his translations of Brihajjatakam and Sarvartha Chintamani. In fact, this is the standard view of most scholars. If you disagree with them, do so respectfully. There is no need for arrogant slurs. > > > Now keep in mind that I did not come up with this idea - This is the > > explanation given to me by Guruji, here goes; Guhya means hidden and refers > > to those parts of the body which one cannot see - not those one should hide. > > If you stand up straight and look at the mirror the genitals will be > > perfectly visible, however the anus will not and is hidden by the buttocks. > > This is what is meant by hidden. > > In Sanskrit, the suffixes -ya and -ta are different. Looks like you do not understand the difference between them. For example, pooj means "to pray to". Poojita means "prayed to". OTOH, "poojya" means "prayable" or "one who is worthy of being prayed to". Similarly, laksh means "to view". Lakshita means "viewed". Lakshya means "one that is worthy of being viewed". That is why lakshya means target. Sish means "to refine, discipline and culture". Sishta means a cultured person (i.e. one who has been refined and cultured). OTOH, sishya means one who needs to be refined and cultured. That is why sishya means a student. Similarly, gupta means hidden (e.g. gupta dhana=hidden treasure). But guhya means one that needs to be hidden. In mantras, secretive mantras that need to be hidden are said to be "guhyam". Anyone who knows Sanskrit well will know that gupta means hidden and guhya means "one that needs to be hidden". > > So guhyas are not parts that you cannot see in the mirror or something like that. They are parts that need to be hidden. Basically they are the secretive parts of the body (that is why Jataka Parijatam uses the term "rahasya desa" (secret area) instead of Guhya). > > Even if you disagree, please see my earlier quotes from other classics which are far less ambiguous. Other scholars such as Varahamihira, Kalyana Verma and Mantreswara used clearer words in the place of Guhya. If one looks at all the classics, all doubts should be cleared. > > > > Libra is the natural 7th house and deals > > with mating, and this being for the sake of producing children. > > > > Now I never said that Päräçara said this, I said my Guruji said this. Take > > it or leave it. > > Visti, had you said just that, it would've been a perfectly acceptable stand. But there is a huge difference between following one's guru and *insulting* other great scholars. You have made great contributions to this list, including the recent postings on celibacy. But slurs on scholars such as this "mind on sex" thing are unbecoming of you. Please control yourself in future. You have been such a great contributor and I do not want to punish you. I do not even want to have to warn you again. Please co-operate. > > Also, kindly make sure that you are not misrepresenting your guru here. I say it especially because all the classics are in agreement on Scorpio and you are contradicting all of them in the name of your guru (who is my guru too)! > > Libra does represent the pelival region that includes some body parts that are important for sexual activity, but the classics are clear in saying that genitals themselves are represented by Scorpio and not Libra. > > > As for celibacy, I have AGAIN quoted my Guruji. The rest is up to you. > > I have no complaints with you in that matter! :-) > > Role of Mars in celibabcy (or lack of it) is quite complicated and dualistic. > > For example, Parasara and Jaimini both taught that Venus and Mars in 2nd from swamsa make one very licentious in sexual matters. This is the opposite of celibabcy! At the same time, Mars rules over Brahmacharyashrama. He has a dual role to play and various scholars, including you, have pointed out various factors very nicely. It was a nice discussion. Keep it up! > > May Jupiter's light shine on us, > Narasimha > > > Monier Williams gives the following for Basti (vasti); > > lower belly , abdomen VarBr2S. Ka1s3i1Kh. the pelvis MW. > > > > Visti Larsen > > visti@s... > > > > > > Chandrashekhar [boxdel] > > 14 June 2004 23:05 > > Visti @ Denmark > > Cc: vedic astrology > > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mars.... is he really karaka for celebecy > > ? To Sjt.Visti Larsen > > > > Dear Visti, > > You wrote" As for sexual organs, Scorpio represents the private parts... > > this is not > > the sexual organs but the anus, which is hidden and hence private -* when > > ones mind is on sex then even private parts become sexual organs!* > > Now I quote Guruji and again state; the 8th house indicates the Anus (it is > > private because it is hidden) whilst the 7th house shows the reproductive > > organs." > > Your statement which I have made in bold types is utterly uncalled for > > and crosses the boundaries of decency.Desist from such comments in > > future.They are not in good taste. > > As to what is 8th house, I wish some body takes pains to read BPHS > > Chapter 4 and Shloka3 and 4 before attributing something to Parashara.I > > would like to know what is your English translation of Sanskrit word > > Basti and Guhya that are said to be the body parts of Kalapurusha > > represented by Tula and Vrishchika rasi by the Venerated Sage. > > Perhaps I am not as good at English as others, but I do not think that > > Private parts does not refer to sexual organs.Perhaps some gentleman > > having good command over English language would like to comment. As for > > Deha-vivar, the hole you are reffering to, do I really need to teach > > anatomy on the list? Please check up the meaning of Navadwara. > > Regards, > > Chandrashekhar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;color:navy">Dear Narasimha, 12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;color:navy"> 12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;color:navy">I do not wish to butt into a discussion among gurus but if I recollect correctly, what Sanjayji was trying to tell us at that point is that Libra represents the visible organs of the pelvic region. This includes the clitoris (excretory (urinary) organ) and the phallus (excretory (urinary) and reproductive organ). Scorpio represents the organs which are not visible, rather they are hidden…or that they ought to be hidden. These include the anus (excretory organ), vagina (reproductive organ) and the testicles (reproductive organs). The phallus is primarily excretory, sometimes used for discharging seminal fluid; the testicles are on the other hand purely reproductive organs. So the classification is more on the lines of visibility/hiding/enshrouding. Scorpio hides both reproductive and excretory organs. This is as far as I understood. 12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;color:navy"> 12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;color:navy">Best regards, 12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;color:navy"> 12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;color:navy">Sarbani 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">Narasimha P.V.R. Rao [pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net] Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:35 AM Vedic Astrology Group [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya 12.0pt"> font-family:Arial">Namaste Visti, font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">> Dear Chandrashekhar and Narasimha, Namaskar > The highlighted portion about people's minds was not meant for you, but all > the other translators of the word Guhya in the classical books. I'm sorry if > you took this phrase wrongly upon you. font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">Well, thanks for the clarification. But I am even more offended now. font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">It is well within your right to believe in what you *think* your guru taught you. But, you have no business speculating about the mindsets of people who translate otherwise. Scholars translated Guhya the way they did because it is the only correct way and because other classics used far less ambiguous words to make things clearer. They did so for valid and intelligent reasons. It is certainly not because their "mind is on sex" as your slur says. Your phrase is offensive even if it was not meant for Chandrashekhar ji and me. font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">For example, the great Dr. B. Suryanarain Row (grandfather of Dr. Raman) associated the term "sexual organs" with Scorpio in his translations of Brihajjatakam and Sarvartha Chintamani. In fact, this is the standard view of most scholars. If you disagree with them, do so respectfully. There is no need for arrogant slurs. font-family:Arial"> > Now keep in mind that I did not come up with this idea - This is the > explanation given to me by Guruji, here goes; Guhya means hidden and refers > to those parts of the body which one cannot see - not those one should hide. > If you stand up straight and look at the mirror the genitals will be > perfectly visible, however the anus will not and is hidden by the buttocks. > This is what is meant by hidden. font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">In Sanskrit, the suffixes -ya and -ta are different. Looks like you do not understand the difference between them. For example, pooj means "to pray to". Poojita means "prayed to". OTOH, "poojya" means "prayable" or "one who is worthy of being prayed to". Similarly, laksh means "to view". Lakshita means "viewed". Lakshya means "one that is worthy of being viewed". That is why lakshya means target. Sish means "to refine, discipline and culture". Sishta means a cultured person (i.e. one who has been refined and cultured). OTOH, sishya means one who needs to be refined and cultured. That is why sishya means a student. Similarly, gupta means hidden (e.g. gupta dhana=hidden treasure). But guhya means one that needs to be hidden. In mantras, secretive mantras that need to be hidden are said to be "guhyam". Anyone who knows Sanskrit well will know that gupta means hidden and guhya means "one that needs to be hidden". font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">So guhyas are not parts that you cannot see in the mirror or something like that. They are parts that need to be hidden. Basically they are the secretive parts of the body (that is why Jataka Parijatam uses the term "rahasya desa" (secret area) instead of Guhya). font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">Even if you disagree, please see my earlier quotes from other classics which are far less ambiguous. Other scholars such as Varahamihira, Kalyana Verma and Mantreswara used clearer words in the place of Guhya. If one looks at all the classics, all doubts should be cleared. font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">> Libra is the natural 7th house and deals font-family:Arial">> with mating, and this being for the sake of producing children. > > Now I never said that Päräçara said this, I said my Guruji said this. Take > it or leave it. font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">Visti, had you said just that, it would've been a perfectly acceptable stand. But there is a huge difference between following one's guru and *insulting* other great scholars. You have made great contributions to this list, including the recent postings on celibacy. But slurs on scholars such as this "mind on sex" thing are unbecoming of you. Please control yourself in future. You have been such a great contributor and I do not want to punish you. I do not even want to have to warn you again. Please co-operate. font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">Also, kindly make sure that you are not misrepresenting your guru here. I say it especially because all the classics are in agreement on Scorpio and you are contradicting all of them in the name of your guru (who is my guru too)! font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">Libra does represent the pelival region that includes some body parts that are important for sexual activity, but the classics are clear in saying that genitals themselves are represented by Scorpio and not Libra. font-family:Arial"> > As for celibacy, I have AGAIN quoted my Guruji. The rest is up to you. font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">I have no complaints with you in that matter! :-) font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">Role of Mars in celibabcy (or lack of it) is quite complicated and dualistic. font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">For example, Parasara and Jaimini both taught that Venus and Mars in 2nd from swamsa make one very licentious in sexual matters. This is the opposite of celibabcy! At the same time, Mars rules over Brahmacharyashrama. He has a dual role to play and various scholars, including you, have pointed out various factors very nicely. It was a nice discussion. Keep it up! font-family:Arial"> font-family:Arial">May Jupiter's light shine on us, font-family:Arial">Narasimha font-family:Arial"> > Monier Williams gives the following for Basti (vasti); > lower belly , abdomen VarBr2S. Ka1s3i1Kh. the pelvis MW. font-family:Arial">> > Visti Larsen > visti@s... > > > Chandrashekhar [boxdel] > 14 June 2004 23:05 > Visti @ Denmark > Cc: vedic astrology > Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mars.... is he really karaka for celebecy > ? To Sjt.Visti Larsen > > Dear Visti, > You wrote" As for sexual organs, Scorpio represents the private parts... > this is not > the sexual organs but the anus, which is hidden and hence private -* when > ones mind is on sex then even private parts become sexual organs!* > Now I quote Guruji and again state; the 8th house indicates the Anus (it is > private because it is hidden) whilst the 7th house shows the reproductive > organs." > Your statement which I have made in bold types is utterly uncalled for > and crosses the boundaries of decency.Desist from such comments in > future.They are not in good taste. > As to what is 8th house, I wish some body takes pains to read BPHS > Chapter 4 and Shloka3 and 4 before attributing something to Parashara.I > would like to know what is your English translation of Sanskrit word > Basti and Guhya that are said to be the body parts of Kalapurusha > represented by Tula and Vrishchika rasi by the Venerated Sage. > Perhaps I am not as good at English as others, but I do not think that > Private parts does not refer to sexual organs.Perhaps some gentleman > having good command over English language would like to comment. As for > Deha-vivar, the hole you are reffering to, do I really need to teach > anatomy on the list? Please check up the meaning of Navadwara. > Regards, > Chandrashekhar. 12.0pt"> 12.0pt"> Archives: vedic astrology To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Namaste Sarbani, Hope you are doing well. Please convey my pranaams to Sanjay ji. If this is indeed how Sanjay ji taught, then his views are at variance from those of the authorities. Please refer to an earlier mails in which I have quoted Parasara, Varahamihira, Kalyana Verma, Mantreswara etc. We can respectfully agree to disagree. May Juoiter's light shine on us, Narasimha > Dear Narasimha, > > I do not wish to butt into a discussion among gurus but if I recollect > correctly, what Sanjayji was trying to tell us at that point is that Libra > represents the visible organs of the pelvic region. This includes the > clitoris (excretory (urinary) organ) and the phallus (excretory (urinary) > and reproductive organ). Scorpio represents the organs which are not > visible, rather they are hidden…or that they ought to be hidden. These > include the anus (excretory organ), vagina (reproductive organ) and the > testicles (reproductive organs). The phallus is primarily excretory, > sometimes used for discharging seminal fluid; the testicles are on the other > hand purely reproductive organs. So the classification is more on the lines > of visibility/hiding/enshrouding. Scorpio hides both reproductive and > excretory organs. This is as far as I understood. > > Best regards, > > Sarbani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 Dear Chandrashekharji, I agree with you as its highly likely that I have not understood this properly. I was not attentive I must confess; I happen to listen in to a lot of things - though not at all carefully - when Sanjayji was teaching Visti, Freedom and Eric. This was not part of the regular class, but the snatch of a conversation that I overhead. So it's best if Sanjayji clarifies. But let me comment upon a couple of things. The vagina is an organ equivalent to the phallus but EXCLUSIVELY for reproductive purposes. It is used for mating in order that the seminal fluid may be deposited there, which may be then carried to the uterus via the cervix for conception. It is used for menstruation. It is NOT used for urinary excretion, which is through the clitoris, the urethra being the internal channel and the clitoris the outer organ through which the urine is ejected. The phallus on the other hand is for BOTH reproductive and urinary. This is the difference between a male and a female. This is probably because the female has very exclusive reproductive functions: the vagina is the medium through which the child is delivered to the world and through which menstruation takes place. So its unimaginable that it should be also used for urinary purposes. The male on the other hand have no reproductive functions except for depositing the seminal fluid. So the phallus doubles as urinary and the channel through which the seminal fluid is ejected. I still think the division is between visible and hidden and not between reproductive and excretory...but I think it may be wise to wait for Sanjayji to download his mails and clarify this to us. I hope you do not mind my discussing physical anatomy but we are all educated adults and I have no problems in discussing these things openly academically. Best regards, Sarbani Chandrashekhar [boxdel] Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:41 AM Sarbani Sarkar Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya Dear Sarbani, There appears to be some confusion here. It would be better if Sanjay comments on this. I am certain he was trying to explain something else. The reason I say this is, there is contradiction in the categorisation of organs and also understanding of Human anatomy in the explanation. I had not wanted to discuss human anatomy on the list and had indicated this in my message to Visti. However you have done so now, I think it is better we set the record straight. If Libra indicates excretory organ and therefore Phallus is ruled by it, why anus the other excretory organ be ruled by Scorpio and not Libra. The Mollier dictionary translates Guhya as pudenda( mfn. (Pa1n2. 3-1 , 109 Ka1s3. g. %{daNDA7di}) to be covered or concealed or hidden or kept secret , concealable , private , secret , mysterious , mystical RV. AV. &c.* the pudenda *Sus3r. VarBr2S. Katha1s. ii , 56 (cf. 1. %{gR4hya}) the anus W.) amongst other meanings and it means per English dictionary: *Definitions* *pudenda* /plural noun/ /pudendum/ 1. The external sexual organs, especially those of a woman. */Etymology/*: 17c: Latin, literally ‘things to be ashamed of', from /pudere/ to be ashamed. There also appears to be some confusion about Anatomy and reproduction here. Clitoris is not urinary excretory organ but Urethra definitely is. The former is female equivalent of a Male Phallus. The dictionary meaning of the former is: *Definitions* *clitoris* /noun/ /clitorises/ 1. /_anatomy._/ In female mammals: a small highly sensitive organ located in front of the opening of the vagina, which like the penis in males, becomes erect when sexually stimulated. */Derivative/*: clitoral /adj/ */Etymology/*: 17c: from Greek /kleitoris/. Again if one calls testicles as reproductive organ but excludes Phallus from that category then Vagina should also be excluded as reproductive organ and Ovary substituted for it. I think the confusion is about external reproductive organs and internal reproductive organs, which together constitute the entire reproductive system. I think what Sanjay was trying to convey was that the internal reproductive and excretory organs are governed by Libra and the External ones by Scorpio. That is an absolutely correct statement. Basti is the region of internal reproductive and excretory organs and External Reproductive and Excretory organs ( also known as Sexual organs) are the Guhyas. .. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > Dear Narasimha, > > I do not wish to butt into a discussion among gurus but if I recollect > correctly, what Sanjayji was trying to tell us at that point is that > Libra represents the visible organs of the pelvic region. This > includes the clitoris (excretory (urinary) organ) and the phallus > (excretory (urinary) and reproductive organ). Scorpio represents the > organs which are not visible, rather they are hidden…or that they > ought to be hidden. These include the anus (excretory organ), vagina > (reproductive organ) and the testicles (reproductive organs). The > phallus is primarily excretory, sometimes used for discharging seminal > fluid; the testicles are on the other hand purely reproductive organs. > So the classification is more on the lines of > visibility/hiding/enshrouding. Scorpio hides both reproductive and > excretory organs. This is as far as I understood. > > Best regards, > > Sarbani > > ------ > > ** Narasimha P.V.R. Rao [pvr] > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:35 AM > *To:* Vedic Astrology Group > *Subject:* [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya > > Namaste Visti, > >> Dear Chandrashekhar and Narasimha, Namaskar >> The highlighted portion about people's minds was not meant for you, > but all >> the other translators of the word Guhya in the classical books. I'm > sorry if >> you took this phrase wrongly upon you. > > Well, thanks for the clarification. But I am even more offended now. > > It is well within your right to believe in what you *think* your guru > taught you. But, you have no business speculating about the mindsets > of people who translate otherwise. Scholars translated Guhya the way > they did because it is the only correct way and because other classics > used far less ambiguous words to make things clearer. They did so for > valid and intelligent reasons. It is certainly not because their "mind > is on sex" as your slur says. Your phrase is offensive even if it was > not meant for Chandrashekhar ji and me. > > For example, the great Dr. B. Suryanarain Row (grandfather of Dr. > Raman) associated the term "sexual organs" with Scorpio in his > translations of Brihajjatakam and Sarvartha Chintamani. In fact, this > is the standard view of most scholars. If you disagree with them, do > so respectfully. There is no need for arrogant slurs. > > >> Now keep in mind that I did not come up with this idea - This is the >> explanation given to me by Guruji, here goes; Guhya means hidden and > refers >> to those parts of the body which one cannot see - not those one > should hide. >> If you stand up straight and look at the mirror the genitals will be >> perfectly visible, however the anus will not and is hidden by the > buttocks. >> This is what is meant by hidden. > > In Sanskrit, the suffixes -ya and -ta are different. Looks like you > do not understand the difference between them. For example, pooj means > "to pray to". Poojita means "prayed to". OTOH, "poojya" means > "prayable" or "one who is worthy of being prayed to". Similarly, laksh > means "to view". Lakshita means "viewed". Lakshya means "one that is > worthy of being viewed". That is why lakshya means target. Sish means > "to refine, discipline and culture". Sishta means a cultured person > (i.e. one who has been refined and cultured). OTOH, sishya means one > who needs to be refined and cultured. That is why sishya means a > student. Similarly, gupta means hidden (e.g. gupta dhana=hidden > treasure). But guhya means one that needs to be hidden. In mantras, > secretive mantras that need to be hidden are said to be "guhyam". > Anyone who knows Sanskrit well will know that gupta means hidden and > guhya means "one that needs to be hidden". > > So guhyas are not parts that you cannot see in the mirror or something > like that. They are parts that need to be hidden. Basically they are > the secretive parts of the body (that is why Jataka Parijatam uses the > term "rahasya desa" (secret area) instead of Guhya). > > Even if you disagree, please see my earlier quotes from other classics > which are far less ambiguous. Other scholars such as Varahamihira, > Kalyana Verma and Mantreswara used clearer words in the place of > Guhya. If one looks at all the classics, all doubts should be cleared. > >> Libra is the natural 7th house and deals > >> with mating, and this being for the sake of producing children. >> >> Now I never said that Päräçara said this, I said my Guruji said this. > Take >> it or leave it. > > Visti, had you said just that, it would've been a perfectly acceptable > stand. But there is a huge difference between following one's guru and > *insulting* other great scholars. You have made great contributions to > this list, including the recent postings on celibacy. But slurs on > scholars such as this "mind on sex" thing are unbecoming of you. > Please control yourself in future. You have been such a great > contributor and I do not want to punish you. I do not even want to > have to warn you again. Please co-operate.. > > Also, kindly make sure that you are not misrepresenting your guru > here. I say it especially because all the classics are in agreement on > Scorpio and you are contradicting all of them in the name of your guru > (who is my guru too)! > > Libra does represent the pelival region that includes some body parts > that are important for sexual activity, but the classics are clear in > saying that genitals themselves are represented by Scorpio and not Libra.. > > >> As for celibacy, I have AGAIN quoted my Guruji. The rest is up to you. > > I have no complaints with you in that matter! :-) > > Role of Mars in celibabcy (or lack of it) is quite complicated and > dualistic. > > For example, Parasara and Jaimini both taught that Venus and Mars in > 2nd from swamsa make one very licentious in sexual matters. This is > the opposite of celibabcy! At the same time, Mars rules over > Brahmacharyashrama.. He has a dual role to play and various scholars, > including you, have pointed out various factors very nicely. It was a > nice discussion. Keep it up! > > May Jupiter's light shine on us, > > Narasimha > > >> Monier Williams gives the following for Basti (vasti); >> lower belly , abdomen VarBr2S. Ka1s3i1Kh. the pelvis MW. > >> >> Visti Larsen >> visti@s <visti@s>... >> >> >> Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >> 14 June 2004 23:05 >> Visti @ Denmark >> Cc: vedic astrology > <vedic astrology> >> Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mars.... is he really karaka for > celebecy >> ? To Sjt.Visti Larsen >> >> Dear Visti, >> You wrote" As for sexual organs, Scorpio represents the private parts... >> this is not >> the sexual organs but the anus, which is hidden and hence private -* when >> ones mind is on sex then even private parts become sexual organs!* >> Now I quote Guruji and again state; the 8th house indicates the Anus > (it is >> private because it is hidden) whilst the 7th house shows the reproductive >> organs." >> Your statement which I have made in bold types is utterly uncalled for >> and crosses the boundaries of decency.Desist from such comments in >> future.They are not in good taste. >> As to what is 8th house, I wish some body takes pains to read BPHS >> Chapter 4 and Shloka3 and 4 before attributing something to Parashara.I >> would like to know what is your English translation of Sanskrit word >> Basti and Guhya that are said to be the body parts of Kalapurusha >> represented by Tula and Vrishchika rasi by the Venerated Sage. >> Perhaps I am not as good at English as others, but I do not think that >> Private parts does not refer to sexual organs.Perhaps some gentleman >> having good command over English language would like to comment. As for >> Deha-vivar, the hole you are reffering to, do I really need to teach >> anatomy on the list? Please check up the meaning of Navadwara. >> Regards, >> Chandrashekhar. > > > > Archives: http://www...comvedic astrology > <vedic astrology> > > > > > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ........ > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > > > > > > > > > > > > > || Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > > > * Sponsor* > > <http://us.ard./SIG=129he2tcb/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr oups/S=1705082686:HM/EXP=1087483022/A=2164339/R=0/SIG=11e2d64in/*http://www. netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183348> > > > > ------ > * Links* > > * > vedic astrology/ > * > vedic astrology > <vedic astrology?subject=Un> > * Terms of > Service <>. > > Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Dear Chandrashekharji, Yes you are right that the urethra and clitoris are separate and the urethra is used for urination. The urethra is placed about the vaginal orifice and the clitoris is situated above the urethra. So the female has three orifices, if we include the anus: vagina, urethra and anus, whereas the male has only two: phallus and anus. BUT I definitely stand by the fact that the vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive functions. The vaginal passage leads up to the cervix towards the mouth of the uterus, which is further connected to the two ovaries through the fallopian tubes. The vaginal opening is used for mating/copulation and is the opening where the seminal fluid is deposited. If the sperm and the egg fertilize to form the zygote then it travels up and plants itself on the uterus to develop the foetus. If not then the uterus wall sheds every cycle to menstruate through the vagina.(This coincides with the lunar cycle of 27+ days; in the US among a certain section, it is fashionable to refer to this phase as 'Moon'). When the baby is ready to be delivered then it too comes out through the vagina. So the vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive purposes. The urinary opening is SEPARATE in the female body and situated above the vaginal opening. This is the main point I wished to make. In the male, the phallus is used both for urination and for mating/copulation and for ejecting the seminal fluid into the vagina. This is the PRIMARY and BIG difference between a male and female anatomy. No I was not talking about the vulva and the labia, which together enfolds the entire female genitalia. In the female we are talking of a urinary opening, an excretory opening and a reproductive opening. In the male we are talking about an excretory opening and urinary-cum-reproductive opening. This is the crucial difference we should keep in mind whilst we sort out the libra/scorpio issue...eventually Best regards, Sarbani Chandrashekhar [boxdel] Friday, June 18, 2004 2:31 AM sarbani Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya Dear Sarbani, You are right, We should wait for Sanjay's comments. In the meanwhile, since you have no problems discussing human anatomy, let me clarify the difference between various organs in order to remove confusion about their function. Here is what Cambridge dictionary says about Clitoris. "clitoris [show phonetics] <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=14250&ph=on> noun [C] a sexual organ above the vagina which can give a woman sexual pleasure when it is touched" and what it says about Urethra."urethra [show phonetics] <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=87461&ph=on> noun [C] plural urethras or SPECIALIZED urethrae the tube in most mammals which carries urine from the bladder out of the body. In males it also carries sperm. " I am attaching two diagrams showing Male and female reproductive systems. They will clarify that clitoris is not an excretory organ and Urethra and clitoris are different organs, both located in Vagina. Study them and then we can revert back to the discussion. You will also find similarity in the urethra and seminal fluid carrying in male and female reproductory systems, and the route though apparently different follows similar delivery systems. This would also clarify any confusion about Vagina being exclusively reserved for reproductive purposes as there are three sections of it each with different functions. I trust this would remove any confusion about clitoris being the organ of delivery of excreta. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >Dear Chandrashekharji, > >I agree with you as its highly likely that I have not understood this >properly. I was not attentive I must confess; I happen to listen in to >a lot of things - though not at all carefully - when Sanjayji was >teaching Visti, Freedom and Eric. This was not part of the regular >class, but the snatch of a conversation that I overhead. So it's best if Sanjayji clarifies. > >But let me comment upon a couple of things. The vagina is an organ >equivalent to the phallus but EXCLUSIVELY for reproductive purposes. It >is used for mating in order that the seminal fluid may be deposited >there, which may be then carried to the uterus via the cervix for >conception. It is used for menstruation. It is NOT used for urinary >excretion, which is through the clitoris, the urethra being the >internal channel and the clitoris the outer organ through which the >urine is ejected. The phallus on the other hand is for BOTH >reproductive and urinary. This is the difference between a male and a >female. This is probably because the female has very exclusive >reproductive functions: the vagina is the medium through which the child is delivered to the world and through which menstruation takes place. >So its unimaginable that it should be also used for urinary purposes. >The male on the other hand have no reproductive functions except for >depositing the seminal fluid. So the phallus doubles as urinary and the >channel through which the seminal fluid is ejected. > >I still think the division is between visible and hidden and not >between reproductive and excretory...but I think it may be wise to wait >for Sanjayji to download his mails and clarify this to us. I hope you >do not mind my discussing physical anatomy but we are all educated >adults and I have no problems in discussing these things openly academically. > > >Best regards, > >Sarbani > >Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:41 AM >Sarbani Sarkar >Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya > >Dear Sarbani, >There appears to be some confusion here. It would be better if Sanjay >comments on this. I am certain he was trying to explain something else. >The reason I say this is, there is contradiction in the categorisation >of organs and also understanding of Human anatomy in the explanation. I >had not wanted to discuss human anatomy on the list and had indicated >this in my message to Visti. However you have done so now, I think it >is better we set the record straight. >If Libra indicates excretory organ and therefore Phallus is ruled by >it, why anus the other excretory organ be ruled by Scorpio and not Libra. >The Mollier dictionary translates Guhya as pudenda( mfn. (Pa1n2. 3-1 , >109 Ka1s3. g. %{daNDA7di}) to be covered or concealed or hidden or kept >secret , concealable , private , secret , mysterious , mystical RV. AV. >&c.* the pudenda *Sus3r. VarBr2S. Katha1s. ii , 56 (cf. 1. %{gR4hya}) >the anus W.) amongst other meanings and it means per English dictionary: >*Definitions* >*pudenda* >/plural noun/ > > /pudendum/ > 1. The external sexual organs, especially those of a woman. > >*/Etymology/*: 17c: Latin, literally ‘things to be ashamed of', >from /pudere/ to be ashamed. > >There also appears to be some confusion about Anatomy and reproduction >here. Clitoris is not urinary excretory organ but Urethra definitely is. >The former is female equivalent of a Male Phallus. The dictionary >meaning of the former is: >*Definitions* >*clitoris* >/noun/ > > /clitorises/ > 1. /_anatomy._/ > In female mammals: a small highly sensitive organ located in > front of the opening of the vagina, which like the penis in > males, becomes erect when sexually stimulated. > >*/Derivative/*: clitoral >/adj/ >*/Etymology/*: 17c: from Greek /kleitoris/. > > >Again if one calls testicles as reproductive organ but excludes Phallus >from that category then Vagina should also be excluded as reproductive >organ and Ovary substituted for it. I think the confusion is about >external reproductive organs and internal reproductive organs, which >together constitute the entire reproductive system. I think what Sanjay >was trying to convey was that the internal reproductive and excretory >organs are governed by Libra and the External ones by Scorpio. That is >an absolutely correct statement. Basti is the region of internal >reproductive and excretory organs and External Reproductive and >Excretory organs ( also known as Sexual organs) are the Guhyas. >.. >Regards, >Chandrashekhar. >Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > > > >>Dear Narasimha, >> >>I do not wish to butt into a discussion among gurus but if I recollect >>correctly, what Sanjayji was trying to tell us at that point is that >>Libra represents the visible organs of the pelvic region. This >>includes the clitoris (excretory (urinary) organ) and the phallus >>(excretory (urinary) and reproductive organ). Scorpio represents the >>organs which are not visible, rather they are hidden…or that they >>ought to be hidden. These include the anus (excretory organ), vagina >>(reproductive organ) and the testicles (reproductive organs). The >>phallus is primarily excretory, sometimes used for discharging seminal >>fluid; the testicles are on the other hand purely reproductive organs. >>So the classification is more on the lines of >>visibility/hiding/enshrouding. Scorpio hides both reproductive and >>excretory organs. This is as far as I understood. >> >>Best regards, >> >>Sarbani >> >>---- >>-- >> >>** Narasimha P.V.R. Rao [pvr] >>*Sent:* Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:35 AM >>*To:* Vedic Astrology Group >>*Subject:* [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >> >>Namaste Visti, >> >> >> >>>Dear Chandrashekhar and Narasimha, Namaskar The highlighted portion >>>about people's minds was not meant for you, >>> >>> >>but all >> >> >>>the other translators of the word Guhya in the classical books. I'm >>> >>> >>sorry if >> >> >>>you took this phrase wrongly upon you. >>> >>> >>Well, thanks for the clarification. But I am even more offended now. >> >>It is well within your right to believe in what you *think* your guru >>taught you. But, you have no business speculating about the mindsets >>of people who translate otherwise. Scholars translated Guhya the way >>they did because it is the only correct way and because other classics >>used far less ambiguous words to make things clearer. They did so for >>valid and intelligent reasons. It is certainly not because their "mind >>is on sex" as your slur says. Your phrase is offensive even if it was >>not meant for Chandrashekhar ji and me. >> >>For example, the great Dr. B. Suryanarain Row (grandfather of Dr. >>Raman) associated the term "sexual organs" with Scorpio in his >>translations of Brihajjatakam and Sarvartha Chintamani. In fact, this >>is the standard view of most scholars. If you disagree with them, do >>so respectfully. There is no need for arrogant slurs. >> >> >> >> >>>Now keep in mind that I did not come up with this idea - This is the >>>explanation given to me by Guruji, here goes; Guhya means hidden and >>> >>> >>refers >> >> >>>to those parts of the body which one cannot see - not those one >>> >>> >>should hide. >> >> >>>If you stand up straight and look at the mirror the genitals will be >>>perfectly visible, however the anus will not and is hidden by the >>> >>> >>buttocks. >> >> >>>This is what is meant by hidden. >>> >>> >>In Sanskrit, the suffixes -ya and -ta are different. Looks like you >>do not understand the difference between them. For example, pooj means >>"to pray to". Poojita means "prayed to". OTOH, "poojya" means >>"prayable" or "one who is worthy of being prayed to". Similarly, laksh >>means "to view". Lakshita means "viewed". Lakshya means "one that is >>worthy of being viewed". That is why lakshya means target. Sish means >>"to refine, discipline and culture". Sishta means a cultured person >>(i.e. one who has been refined and cultured). OTOH, sishya means one >>who needs to be refined and cultured. That is why sishya means a >>student. Similarly, gupta means hidden (e.g. gupta dhana=hidden >>treasure). But guhya means one that needs to be hidden. In mantras, >>secretive mantras that need to be hidden are said to be "guhyam". >>Anyone who knows Sanskrit well will know that gupta means hidden and >>guhya means "one that needs to be hidden". >> >>So guhyas are not parts that you cannot see in the mirror or something >>like that. They are parts that need to be hidden. Basically they are >>the secretive parts of the body (that is why Jataka Parijatam uses the >>term "rahasya desa" (secret area) instead of Guhya). >> >>Even if you disagree, please see my earlier quotes from other classics >>which are far less ambiguous. Other scholars such as Varahamihira, >>Kalyana Verma and Mantreswara used clearer words in the place of >>Guhya. If one looks at all the classics, all doubts should be cleared. >> >> >> >>>Libra is the natural 7th house and deals >>> >>> >>>with mating, and this being for the sake of producing children. >>> >>>Now I never said that Päräçara said this, I said my Guruji said this. >>> >>> >>Take >> >> >>>it or leave it. >>> >>> >>Visti, had you said just that, it would've been a perfectly acceptable >>stand. But there is a huge difference between following one's guru and >>*insulting* other great scholars. You have made great contributions to >>this list, including the recent postings on celibacy. But slurs on >>scholars such as this "mind on sex" thing are unbecoming of you. >>Please control yourself in future. You have been such a great >>contributor and I do not want to punish you. I do not even want to >>have to warn you again. Please co-operate.. >> >>Also, kindly make sure that you are not misrepresenting your guru >>here. I say it especially because all the classics are in agreement on >>Scorpio and you are contradicting all of them in the name of your guru >>(who is my guru too)! >> >>Libra does represent the pelival region that includes some body parts >>that are important for sexual activity, but the classics are clear in >>saying that genitals themselves are represented by Scorpio and not Libra.. >> >> >> >> >>>As for celibacy, I have AGAIN quoted my Guruji. The rest is up to you. >>> >>> >>I have no complaints with you in that matter! :-) >> >>Role of Mars in celibabcy (or lack of it) is quite complicated and >>dualistic. >> >>For example, Parasara and Jaimini both taught that Venus and Mars in >>2nd from swamsa make one very licentious in sexual matters. This is >>the opposite of celibabcy! At the same time, Mars rules over >>Brahmacharyashrama.. He has a dual role to play and various scholars, >>including you, have pointed out various factors very nicely. It was a >>nice discussion. Keep it up! >> >>May Jupiter's light shine on us, >> >>Narasimha >> >> >> >> >>>Monier Williams gives the following for Basti (vasti); lower belly , >>>abdomen VarBr2S. Ka1s3i1Kh. the pelvis MW. >>> >>> >>>Visti Larsen >>>visti@s <visti@s>... >>> >>> >>>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>>14 June 2004 23:05 >>>Visti @ Denmark >>>Cc: vedic astrology >>> >>> >><vedic astrology> >> >> >>>Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mars.... is he really karaka for >>> >>> >>celebecy >> >> >>>? To Sjt.Visti Larsen >>> >>>Dear Visti, >>>You wrote" As for sexual organs, Scorpio represents the private parts... >>>this is not >>>the sexual organs but the anus, which is hidden and hence private -* >>>when ones mind is on sex then even private parts become sexual >>>organs!* Now I quote Guruji and again state; the 8th house indicates >>>the Anus >>> >>> >>(it is >> >> >>>private because it is hidden) whilst the 7th house shows the >>>reproductive organs." >>>Your statement which I have made in bold types is utterly uncalled >>>for and crosses the boundaries of decency.Desist from such comments >>>in future.They are not in good taste. >>>As to what is 8th house, I wish some body takes pains to read BPHS >>>Chapter 4 and Shloka3 and 4 before attributing something to >>>Parashara.I would like to know what is your English translation of >>>Sanskrit word Basti and Guhya that are said to be the body parts of >>>Kalapurusha represented by Tula and Vrishchika rasi by the Venerated Sage. >>>Perhaps I am not as good at English as others, but I do not think >>>that Private parts does not refer to sexual organs.Perhaps some >>>gentleman having good command over English language would like to >>>comment. As for Deha-vivar, the hole you are reffering to, do I >>>really need to teach anatomy on the list? Please check up the meaning of Navadwara. >>>Regards, >>>Chandrashekhar. >>> >>> >> >>Archives: http://www...comvedic astrology >><vedic astrology> >> >> >> >> >> >>....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ........ >> >>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || >> >> >>* Sponsor* >> >> >> >> ><http://us.ard./SIG=129he2tcb/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176 >/D=gr >oups/S=1705082686:HM/EXP=1087483022/A=2164339/R=0/SIG=11e2d64in/*http://www .. >netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183348> > > >> >>---- >>-- >>* Links* >> >> * >> vedic astrology/ >> * >> vedic astrology >> >> >> ><vedic astrology?subject=Un >> > > >> * Terms of >> Service <>. >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/.8XolB/TM --~-> Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 HAre Krishna Dear Friends, Whether it is amle or female anatomy the external anus is scorpio- as what food goes in (2nd house) has to come out.(8th house) Regarding other things, Somewhere i read but sorry I cant remember- that is someone has a clean" sex organ jupiter aspects 8th house. scorpio- Seems like external(8th house) sex and eliminary organs are different than what would be considered internal "reproduction organs" or part of teh digestive system.Libra,virgo and up breasts arent given any special disignation. they are part of chest area. We'll see what Sanjay has to say. All the best Lakshmi vedic astrology, "Sarbani Sarkar" <sarbani@s...> wrote: > Dear Chandrashekharji, > > Yes you are right that the urethra and clitoris are separate and the urethra > is used for urination. The urethra is placed about the vaginal orifice and > the clitoris is situated above the urethra. So the female has three > orifices, if we include the anus: vagina, urethra and anus, whereas the male > has only two: phallus and anus. BUT I definitely stand by the fact that the > vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive functions. The vaginal > passage leads up to the cervix towards the mouth of the uterus, which is > further connected to the two ovaries through the fallopian tubes. The > vaginal opening is used for mating/copulation and is the opening where the > seminal fluid is deposited. If the sperm and the egg fertilize to form the > zygote then it travels up and plants itself on the uterus to develop the > foetus. If not then the uterus wall sheds every cycle to menstruate through > the vagina.(This coincides with the lunar cycle of 27+ days; in the US among > a certain section, it is fashionable to refer to this phase as 'Moon'). When > the baby is ready to be delivered then it too comes out through the vagina. > So the vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive purposes. The urinary > opening is SEPARATE in the female body and situated above the vaginal > opening. This is the main point I wished to make. In the male, the phallus > is used both for urination and for mating/copulation and for ejecting the > seminal fluid into the vagina. This is the PRIMARY and BIG difference > between a male and female anatomy. No I was not talking about the vulva and > the labia, which together enfolds the entire female genitalia. In the female > we are talking of a urinary opening, an excretory opening and a reproductive > opening. In the male we are talking about an excretory opening and > urinary-cum-reproductive opening. This is the crucial difference we should > keep in mind whilst we sort out the libra/scorpio issue...eventually > > Best regards, > > Sarbani > > > Chandrashekhar [boxdel] > Friday, June 18, 2004 2:31 AM > sarbani@s... > Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' > Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya > > Dear Sarbani, > > You are right, We should wait for Sanjay's comments. In the meanwhile, since > you have no problems discussing human anatomy, let me clarify the difference > between various organs in order to remove confusion about their function. > Here is what Cambridge dictionary says about Clitoris. > "clitoris [show phonetics] <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=14250&ph=on> > noun [C] > a sexual organ above the vagina which can give a woman sexual pleasure when > it is touched" and what it says about Urethra."urethra [show phonetics] > <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=87461&ph=on> > noun [C] plural urethras or SPECIALIZED urethrae the tube in most mammals > which carries urine from the bladder out of the body. In males it also > carries sperm. > " > I am attaching two diagrams showing Male and female reproductive systems. > They will clarify that clitoris is not an excretory organ and Urethra and > clitoris are different organs, both located in Vagina. Study them and then > we can revert back to the discussion. You will also find similarity in the > urethra and seminal fluid carrying in male and female reproductory systems, > and the route though apparently different follows similar delivery systems. > This would also clarify any confusion about Vagina being exclusively > reserved for reproductive purposes as there are three sections of it each > with different functions. > I trust this would remove any confusion about clitoris being the organ of > delivery of excreta. > Regards, > Chandrashekhar. > > Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > > >Dear Chandrashekharji, > > > >I agree with you as its highly likely that I have not understood this > >properly. I was not attentive I must confess; I happen to listen in to > >a lot of things - though not at all carefully - when Sanjayji was > >teaching Visti, Freedom and Eric. This was not part of the regular > >class, but the snatch of a conversation that I overhead. So it's best if > Sanjayji clarifies. > > > >But let me comment upon a couple of things. The vagina is an organ > >equivalent to the phallus but EXCLUSIVELY for reproductive purposes. It > >is used for mating in order that the seminal fluid may be deposited > >there, which may be then carried to the uterus via the cervix for > >conception. It is used for menstruation. It is NOT used for urinary > >excretion, which is through the clitoris, the urethra being the > >internal channel and the clitoris the outer organ through which the > >urine is ejected. The phallus on the other hand is for BOTH > >reproductive and urinary. This is the difference between a male and a > >female. This is probably because the female has very exclusive > >reproductive functions: the vagina is the medium through which the child is > delivered to the world and through which menstruation takes place. > >So its unimaginable that it should be also used for urinary purposes. > >The male on the other hand have no reproductive functions except for > >depositing the seminal fluid. So the phallus doubles as urinary and the > >channel through which the seminal fluid is ejected. > > > >I still think the division is between visible and hidden and not > >between reproductive and excretory...but I think it may be wise to wait > >for Sanjayji to download his mails and clarify this to us. I hope you > >do not mind my discussing physical anatomy but we are all educated > >adults and I have no problems in discussing these things openly > academically. > > > > > >Best regards, > > > >Sarbani > > > >Chandrashekhar [boxdel] > >Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:41 AM > >Sarbani Sarkar > >Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' > >Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya > > > >Dear Sarbani, > >There appears to be some confusion here. It would be better if Sanjay > >comments on this. I am certain he was trying to explain something else. > >The reason I say this is, there is contradiction in the categorisation > >of organs and also understanding of Human anatomy in the explanation. I > >had not wanted to discuss human anatomy on the list and had indicated > >this in my message to Visti. However you have done so now, I think it > >is better we set the record straight. > >If Libra indicates excretory organ and therefore Phallus is ruled by > >it, why anus the other excretory organ be ruled by Scorpio and not Libra. > >The Mollier dictionary translates Guhya as pudenda( mfn. (Pa1n2. 3- 1 , > >109 Ka1s3. g. %{daNDA7di}) to be covered or concealed or hidden or kept > >secret , concealable , private , secret , mysterious , mystical RV. AV. > >&c.* the pudenda *Sus3r. VarBr2S. Katha1s. ii , 56 (cf. 1. % {gR4hya}) > >the anus W.) amongst other meanings and it means per English dictionary: > >*Definitions* > >*pudenda* > >/plural noun/ > > > > /pudendum/ > > 1. The external sexual organs, especially those of a woman. > > > >*/Etymology/*: 17c: Latin, literally `things to be ashamed of', > >from /pudere/ to be ashamed. > > > >There also appears to be some confusion about Anatomy and reproduction > >here. Clitoris is not urinary excretory organ but Urethra definitely is. > >The former is female equivalent of a Male Phallus. The dictionary > >meaning of the former is: > >*Definitions* > >*clitoris* > >/noun/ > > > > /clitorises/ > > 1. /_anatomy._/ > > In female mammals: a small highly sensitive organ located in > > front of the opening of the vagina, which like the penis in > > males, becomes erect when sexually stimulated. > > > >*/Derivative/*: clitoral > >/adj/ > >*/Etymology/*: 17c: from Greek /kleitoris/. > > > > > >Again if one calls testicles as reproductive organ but excludes Phallus > >from that category then Vagina should also be excluded as reproductive > >organ and Ovary substituted for it. I think the confusion is about > >external reproductive organs and internal reproductive organs, which > >together constitute the entire reproductive system. I think what Sanjay > >was trying to convey was that the internal reproductive and excretory > >organs are governed by Libra and the External ones by Scorpio. That is > >an absolutely correct statement. Basti is the region of internal > >reproductive and excretory organs and External Reproductive and > >Excretory organs ( also known as Sexual organs) are the Guhyas. > >.. > >Regards, > >Chandrashekhar. > >Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > > > > > > > >>Dear Narasimha, > >> > >>I do not wish to butt into a discussion among gurus but if I recollect > >>correctly, what Sanjayji was trying to tell us at that point is that > >>Libra represents the visible organs of the pelvic region. This > >>includes the clitoris (excretory (urinary) organ) and the phallus > >>(excretory (urinary) and reproductive organ). Scorpio represents the > >>organs which are not visible, rather they are hidden…or that they > >>ought to be hidden. These include the anus (excretory organ), vagina > >>(reproductive organ) and the testicles (reproductive organs). The > >>phallus is primarily excretory, sometimes used for discharging seminal > >>fluid; the testicles are on the other hand purely reproductive organs. > >>So the classification is more on the lines of > >>visibility/hiding/enshrouding. Scorpio hides both reproductive and > >>excretory organs. This is as far as I understood. > >> > >>Best regards, > >> > >>Sarbani > >> > >> ---- > >>-- > >> > >>** Narasimha P.V.R. Rao [pvr@c...] > >>*Sent:* Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:35 AM > >>*To:* Vedic Astrology Group > >>*Subject:* [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya > >> > >>Namaste Visti, > >> > >> > >> > >>>Dear Chandrashekhar and Narasimha, Namaskar The highlighted portion > >>>about people's minds was not meant for you, > >>> > >>> > >>but all > >> > >> > >>>the other translators of the word Guhya in the classical books. I'm > >>> > >>> > >>sorry if > >> > >> > >>>you took this phrase wrongly upon you. > >>> > >>> > >>Well, thanks for the clarification. But I am even more offended now. > >> > >>It is well within your right to believe in what you *think* your guru > >>taught you. But, you have no business speculating about the mindsets > >>of people who translate otherwise. Scholars translated Guhya the way > >>they did because it is the only correct way and because other classics > >>used far less ambiguous words to make things clearer. They did so for > >>valid and intelligent reasons. It is certainly not because their "mind > >>is on sex" as your slur says. Your phrase is offensive even if it was > >>not meant for Chandrashekhar ji and me. > >> > >>For example, the great Dr. B. Suryanarain Row (grandfather of Dr. > >>Raman) associated the term "sexual organs" with Scorpio in his > >>translations of Brihajjatakam and Sarvartha Chintamani. In fact, this > >>is the standard view of most scholars. If you disagree with them, do > >>so respectfully. There is no need for arrogant slurs. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>Now keep in mind that I did not come up with this idea - This is the > >>>explanation given to me by Guruji, here goes; Guhya means hidden and > >>> > >>> > >>refers > >> > >> > >>>to those parts of the body which one cannot see - not those one > >>> > >>> > >>should hide. > >> > >> > >>>If you stand up straight and look at the mirror the genitals will be > >>>perfectly visible, however the anus will not and is hidden by the > >>> > >>> > >>buttocks. > >> > >> > >>>This is what is meant by hidden. > >>> > >>> > >>In Sanskrit, the suffixes -ya and -ta are different. Looks like you > >>do not understand the difference between them. For example, pooj means > >>"to pray to". Poojita means "prayed to". OTOH, "poojya" means > >>"prayable" or "one who is worthy of being prayed to". Similarly, laksh > >>means "to view". Lakshita means "viewed". Lakshya means "one that is > >>worthy of being viewed". That is why lakshya means target. Sish means > >>"to refine, discipline and culture". Sishta means a cultured person > >>(i.e. one who has been refined and cultured). OTOH, sishya means one > >>who needs to be refined and cultured. That is why sishya means a > >>student. Similarly, gupta means hidden (e.g. gupta dhana=hidden > >>treasure). But guhya means one that needs to be hidden. In mantras, > >>secretive mantras that need to be hidden are said to be "guhyam". > >>Anyone who knows Sanskrit well will know that gupta means hidden and > >>guhya means "one that needs to be hidden". > >> > >>So guhyas are not parts that you cannot see in the mirror or something > >>like that. They are parts that need to be hidden. Basically they are > >>the secretive parts of the body (that is why Jataka Parijatam uses the > >>term "rahasya desa" (secret area) instead of Guhya). > >> > >>Even if you disagree, please see my earlier quotes from other classics > >>which are far less ambiguous. Other scholars such as Varahamihira, > >>Kalyana Verma and Mantreswara used clearer words in the place of > >>Guhya. If one looks at all the classics, all doubts should be cleared. > >> > >> > >> > >>>Libra is the natural 7th house and deals > >>> > >>> > >>>with mating, and this being for the sake of producing children. > >>> > >>>Now I never said that Päräçara said this, I said my Guruji said this. > >>> > >>> > >>Take > >> > >> > >>>it or leave it. > >>> > >>> > >>Visti, had you said just that, it would've been a perfectly acceptable > >>stand. But there is a huge difference between following one's guru and > >>*insulting* other great scholars. You have made great contributions to > >>this list, including the recent postings on celibacy. But slurs on > >>scholars such as this "mind on sex" thing are unbecoming of you. > >>Please control yourself in future. You have been such a great > >>contributor and I do not want to punish you. I do not even want to > >>have to warn you again. Please co-operate.. > >> > >>Also, kindly make sure that you are not misrepresenting your guru > >>here. I say it especially because all the classics are in agreement on > >>Scorpio and you are contradicting all of them in the name of your guru > >>(who is my guru too)! > >> > >>Libra does represent the pelival region that includes some body parts > >>that are important for sexual activity, but the classics are clear in > >>saying that genitals themselves are represented by Scorpio and not Libra.. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>As for celibacy, I have AGAIN quoted my Guruji. The rest is up to you. > >>> > >>> > >>I have no complaints with you in that matter! :-) > >> > >>Role of Mars in celibabcy (or lack of it) is quite complicated and > >>dualistic. > >> > >>For example, Parasara and Jaimini both taught that Venus and Mars in > >>2nd from swamsa make one very licentious in sexual matters. This is > >>the opposite of celibabcy! At the same time, Mars rules over > >>Brahmacharyashrama.. He has a dual role to play and various scholars, > >>including you, have pointed out various factors very nicely. It was a > >>nice discussion. Keep it up! > >> > >>May Jupiter's light shine on us, > >> > >>Narasimha > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>Monier Williams gives the following for Basti (vasti); lower belly , > >>>abdomen VarBr2S. Ka1s3i1Kh. the pelvis MW. > >>> > >>> > >>>Visti Larsen > >>>visti@s <visti@s>... > >>> > >>> > >>>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] > >>>14 June 2004 23:05 > >>>Visti @ Denmark > >>>Cc: vedic astrology > >>> > >>> > >><vedic astrology> > >> > >> > >>>Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mars.... is he really karaka for > >>> > >>> > >>celebecy > >> > >> > >>>? To Sjt.Visti Larsen > >>> > >>>Dear Visti, > >>>You wrote" As for sexual organs, Scorpio represents the private parts... > >>>this is not > >>>the sexual organs but the anus, which is hidden and hence private -* > >>>when ones mind is on sex then even private parts become sexual > >>>organs!* Now I quote Guruji and again state; the 8th house indicates > >>>the Anus > >>> > >>> > >>(it is > >> > >> > >>>private because it is hidden) whilst the 7th house shows the > >>>reproductive organs." > >>>Your statement which I have made in bold types is utterly uncalled > >>>for and crosses the boundaries of decency.Desist from such comments > >>>in future.They are not in good taste. > >>>As to what is 8th house, I wish some body takes pains to read BPHS > >>>Chapter 4 and Shloka3 and 4 before attributing something to > >>>Parashara.I would like to know what is your English translation of > >>>Sanskrit word Basti and Guhya that are said to be the body parts of > >>>Kalapurusha represented by Tula and Vrishchika rasi by the Venerated > Sage. > >>>Perhaps I am not as good at English as others, but I do not think > >>>that Private parts does not refer to sexual organs.Perhaps some > >>>gentleman having good command over English language would like to > >>>comment. As for Deha-vivar, the hole you are reffering to, do I > >>>really need to teach anatomy on the list? Please check up the meaning of > Navadwara. > >>>Regards, > >>>Chandrashekhar. > >>> > >>> > >> > >>Archives: http://www...comvedic astrology > >><vedic astrology> > >> > >> > >> > >>To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > >> > >>....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ........ > >> > >>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > >> > >> > >> > >>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || > >> > >> > >>* Sponsor* > >> > >> > >> > >> > ><http://us.ard./SIG=129he2tcb/M=298184.5022502.6152625.30011 76 > >/D=gr > >oups/S=1705082686:HM/EXP=1087483022/A=2164339/R=0/SIG=11e2d64in/*http ://www > . > >netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183348> > > > > > >> > >> ---- > >>-- > >>* Links* > >> > >> * > >> vedic astrology/ > >> * > >> vedic astrology > >> > >> > >> > ><vedic astrology? subject=Un > >> > > > > > >> * Terms of > >> Service <>. > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor -------------------- ~--> Make > a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar. > Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! > http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/.8XolB/TM > -- ~-> > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE: Blank mail to vedic astrology- > > ....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ....... > > > Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Dear Sarbani, I am glad you see the basic structure to be right. Now if you look at the graphics carefully, you will notice that both the organs serve as a passage and delivery system. Both have different openings/addendums within them for discharge of excretory fluids though at may be at different places and for different fluids. The shapes are definitely different and therefore apparently there may appear to be difference between them, but they are not exclusive to each other in function but rather complimentary. However both are only delivery system for reproduction to happen at a different place. That conception does not happen within the Vagina, needs to be understood. As the Penile structure is a delivery mechanism for semen Vagina is a receptacle for the semen. It however does not receive the ovum. The meeting of the two occurs after the spermatozoa pass the oss uteri and reproduction occurs in uterus. Whether the ovum gets fertilised by the sperm or not decides whether it is going to be attached to the wall of uterus or otherwise. Other processes described by you are right. However now let us turn back to the original topic. As you have seen Vagina proper, and not vulva, being hidden from sight and incapable of being sighted with out using a vaginal speculum, how would it become capable of being called Guhya ( that which should not be revealed)? Guhya is something that can be easily perceived by others if not guarded/covered specifically. That is the connotation of Guhya when we talk about a Guhya Mantra too. Now if we accept the argument on a hypothetical basis and exclude phallus and testicles as being related to Scorpio, would the Kalapurusha be without Sexual organs? Libra being Basti, Scorpio being Anus and Sagittarius being Uru, the Kalapurusha would have to be with out sexual organs, is it not? I am certain with more contemplation you will understand the contradiction if we accept the premise of Scorpio not being Sexual organs of Kalapurusha. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >Dear Chandrashekharji, > >Yes you are right that the urethra and clitoris are separate and the urethra >is used for urination. The urethra is placed about the vaginal orifice and >the clitoris is situated above the urethra. So the female has three >orifices, if we include the anus: vagina, urethra and anus, whereas the male >has only two: phallus and anus. BUT I definitely stand by the fact that the >vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive functions. The vaginal >passage leads up to the cervix towards the mouth of the uterus, which is >further connected to the two ovaries through the fallopian tubes. The >vaginal opening is used for mating/copulation and is the opening where the >seminal fluid is deposited. If the sperm and the egg fertilize to form the >zygote then it travels up and plants itself on the uterus to develop the >foetus. If not then the uterus wall sheds every cycle to menstruate through >the vagina.(This coincides with the lunar cycle of 27+ days; in the US among >a certain section, it is fashionable to refer to this phase as 'Moon'). When >the baby is ready to be delivered then it too comes out through the vagina. >So the vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive purposes. The urinary >opening is SEPARATE in the female body and situated above the vaginal >opening. This is the main point I wished to make. In the male, the phallus >is used both for urination and for mating/copulation and for ejecting the >seminal fluid into the vagina. This is the PRIMARY and BIG difference >between a male and female anatomy. No I was not talking about the vulva and >the labia, which together enfolds the entire female genitalia. In the female >we are talking of a urinary opening, an excretory opening and a reproductive >opening. In the male we are talking about an excretory opening and >urinary-cum-reproductive opening. This is the crucial difference we should >keep in mind whilst we sort out the libra/scorpio issue...eventually > >Best regards, > >Sarbani > > >Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >Friday, June 18, 2004 2:31 AM >sarbani >Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya > >Dear Sarbani, > >You are right, We should wait for Sanjay's comments. In the meanwhile, since >you have no problems discussing human anatomy, let me clarify the difference >between various organs in order to remove confusion about their function. >Here is what Cambridge dictionary says about Clitoris. >"clitoris [show phonetics] <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=14250&ph=on> >noun [C] >a sexual organ above the vagina which can give a woman sexual pleasure when >it is touched" and what it says about Urethra."urethra [show phonetics] ><define.asp?dict=CALD&key=87461&ph=on> >noun [C] plural urethras or SPECIALIZED urethrae the tube in most mammals >which carries urine from the bladder out of the body. In males it also >carries sperm. >" >I am attaching two diagrams showing Male and female reproductive systems. >They will clarify that clitoris is not an excretory organ and Urethra and >clitoris are different organs, both located in Vagina. Study them and then >we can revert back to the discussion. You will also find similarity in the >urethra and seminal fluid carrying in male and female reproductory systems, >and the route though apparently different follows similar delivery systems. >This would also clarify any confusion about Vagina being exclusively >reserved for reproductive purposes as there are three sections of it each >with different functions. >I trust this would remove any confusion about clitoris being the organ of >delivery of excreta. >Regards, >Chandrashekhar. > >Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > > > >>Dear Chandrashekharji, >> >>I agree with you as its highly likely that I have not understood this >>properly. I was not attentive I must confess; I happen to listen in to >>a lot of things - though not at all carefully - when Sanjayji was >>teaching Visti, Freedom and Eric. This was not part of the regular >>class, but the snatch of a conversation that I overhead. So it's best if >> >> >Sanjayji clarifies. > > >>But let me comment upon a couple of things. The vagina is an organ >>equivalent to the phallus but EXCLUSIVELY for reproductive purposes. It >>is used for mating in order that the seminal fluid may be deposited >>there, which may be then carried to the uterus via the cervix for >>conception. It is used for menstruation. It is NOT used for urinary >>excretion, which is through the clitoris, the urethra being the >>internal channel and the clitoris the outer organ through which the >>urine is ejected. The phallus on the other hand is for BOTH >>reproductive and urinary. This is the difference between a male and a >>female. This is probably because the female has very exclusive >>reproductive functions: the vagina is the medium through which the child is >> >> >delivered to the world and through which menstruation takes place. > > >>So its unimaginable that it should be also used for urinary purposes. >>The male on the other hand have no reproductive functions except for >>depositing the seminal fluid. So the phallus doubles as urinary and the >>channel through which the seminal fluid is ejected. >> >>I still think the division is between visible and hidden and not >>between reproductive and excretory...but I think it may be wise to wait >>for Sanjayji to download his mails and clarify this to us. I hope you >>do not mind my discussing physical anatomy but we are all educated >>adults and I have no problems in discussing these things openly >> >> >academically. > > >>Best regards, >> >>Sarbani >> >>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:41 AM >>Sarbani Sarkar >>Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >>Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >> >>Dear Sarbani, >>There appears to be some confusion here. It would be better if Sanjay >>comments on this. I am certain he was trying to explain something else. >>The reason I say this is, there is contradiction in the categorisation >>of organs and also understanding of Human anatomy in the explanation. I >>had not wanted to discuss human anatomy on the list and had indicated >>this in my message to Visti. However you have done so now, I think it >>is better we set the record straight. >>If Libra indicates excretory organ and therefore Phallus is ruled by >>it, why anus the other excretory organ be ruled by Scorpio and not Libra. >>The Mollier dictionary translates Guhya as pudenda( mfn. (Pa1n2. 3-1 , >>109 Ka1s3. g. %{daNDA7di}) to be covered or concealed or hidden or kept >>secret , concealable , private , secret , mysterious , mystical RV. AV. >>&c.* the pudenda *Sus3r. VarBr2S. Katha1s. ii , 56 (cf. 1. %{gR4hya}) >>the anus W.) amongst other meanings and it means per English dictionary: >>*Definitions* >>*pudenda* >>/plural noun/ >> >> /pudendum/ >> 1. The external sexual organs, especially those of a woman. >> >>*/Etymology/*: 17c: Latin, literally ‘things to be ashamed of', >> >> >>from /pudere/ to be ashamed. > > >>There also appears to be some confusion about Anatomy and reproduction >>here. Clitoris is not urinary excretory organ but Urethra definitely is. >>The former is female equivalent of a Male Phallus. The dictionary >>meaning of the former is: >>*Definitions* >>*clitoris* >>/noun/ >> >> /clitorises/ >> 1. /_anatomy._/ >> In female mammals: a small highly sensitive organ located in >> front of the opening of the vagina, which like the penis in >> males, becomes erect when sexually stimulated. >> >>*/Derivative/*: clitoral >>/adj/ >>*/Etymology/*: 17c: from Greek /kleitoris/. >> >> >>Again if one calls testicles as reproductive organ but excludes Phallus >> >> >>from that category then Vagina should also be excluded as reproductive > > >>organ and Ovary substituted for it. I think the confusion is about >>external reproductive organs and internal reproductive organs, which >>together constitute the entire reproductive system. I think what Sanjay >>was trying to convey was that the internal reproductive and excretory >>organs are governed by Libra and the External ones by Scorpio. That is >>an absolutely correct statement. Basti is the region of internal >>reproductive and excretory organs and External Reproductive and >>Excretory organs ( also known as Sexual organs) are the Guhyas. >>.. >>Regards, >>Chandrashekhar. >>Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>Dear Narasimha, >>> >>>I do not wish to butt into a discussion among gurus but if I recollect >>>correctly, what Sanjayji was trying to tell us at that point is that >>>Libra represents the visible organs of the pelvic region. This >>>includes the clitoris (excretory (urinary) organ) and the phallus >>>(excretory (urinary) and reproductive organ). Scorpio represents the >>>organs which are not visible, rather they are hidden…or that they >>>ought to be hidden. These include the anus (excretory organ), vagina >>>(reproductive organ) and the testicles (reproductive organs). The >>>phallus is primarily excretory, sometimes used for discharging seminal >>>fluid; the testicles are on the other hand purely reproductive organs. >>>So the classification is more on the lines of >>>visibility/hiding/enshrouding. Scorpio hides both reproductive and >>>excretory organs. This is as far as I understood. >>> >>>Best regards, >>> >>>Sarbani >>> >>>---- >>>-- >>> >>>** Narasimha P.V.R. Rao [pvr] >>>*Sent:* Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:35 AM >>>*To:* Vedic Astrology Group >>>*Subject:* [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >>> >>>Namaste Visti, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Dear Chandrashekhar and Narasimha, Namaskar The highlighted portion >>>>about people's minds was not meant for you, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>but all >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>the other translators of the word Guhya in the classical books. I'm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>sorry if >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>you took this phrase wrongly upon you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Well, thanks for the clarification. But I am even more offended now. >>> >>>It is well within your right to believe in what you *think* your guru >>>taught you. But, you have no business speculating about the mindsets >>>of people who translate otherwise. Scholars translated Guhya the way >>>they did because it is the only correct way and because other classics >>>used far less ambiguous words to make things clearer. They did so for >>>valid and intelligent reasons. It is certainly not because their "mind >>>is on sex" as your slur says. Your phrase is offensive even if it was >>>not meant for Chandrashekhar ji and me. >>> >>>For example, the great Dr. B. Suryanarain Row (grandfather of Dr. >>>Raman) associated the term "sexual organs" with Scorpio in his >>>translations of Brihajjatakam and Sarvartha Chintamani. In fact, this >>>is the standard view of most scholars. If you disagree with them, do >>>so respectfully. There is no need for arrogant slurs. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Now keep in mind that I did not come up with this idea - This is the >>>>explanation given to me by Guruji, here goes; Guhya means hidden and >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>refers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>to those parts of the body which one cannot see - not those one >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>should hide. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>If you stand up straight and look at the mirror the genitals will be >>>>perfectly visible, however the anus will not and is hidden by the >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>buttocks. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>This is what is meant by hidden. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>In Sanskrit, the suffixes -ya and -ta are different. Looks like you >>>do not understand the difference between them. For example, pooj means >>>"to pray to". Poojita means "prayed to". OTOH, "poojya" means >>>"prayable" or "one who is worthy of being prayed to". Similarly, laksh >>>means "to view". Lakshita means "viewed". Lakshya means "one that is >>>worthy of being viewed". That is why lakshya means target. Sish means >>>"to refine, discipline and culture". Sishta means a cultured person >>>(i.e. one who has been refined and cultured). OTOH, sishya means one >>>who needs to be refined and cultured. That is why sishya means a >>>student. Similarly, gupta means hidden (e.g. gupta dhana=hidden >>>treasure). But guhya means one that needs to be hidden. In mantras, >>>secretive mantras that need to be hidden are said to be "guhyam". >>>Anyone who knows Sanskrit well will know that gupta means hidden and >>>guhya means "one that needs to be hidden". >>> >>>So guhyas are not parts that you cannot see in the mirror or something >>>like that. They are parts that need to be hidden. Basically they are >>>the secretive parts of the body (that is why Jataka Parijatam uses the >>>term "rahasya desa" (secret area) instead of Guhya). >>> >>>Even if you disagree, please see my earlier quotes from other classics >>>which are far less ambiguous. Other scholars such as Varahamihira, >>>Kalyana Verma and Mantreswara used clearer words in the place of >>>Guhya. If one looks at all the classics, all doubts should be cleared. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Libra is the natural 7th house and deals >>>> >>>> >>>>with mating, and this being for the sake of producing children. >>>> >>>>Now I never said that Päräçara said this, I said my Guruji said this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Take >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>it or leave it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Visti, had you said just that, it would've been a perfectly acceptable >>>stand. But there is a huge difference between following one's guru and >>>*insulting* other great scholars. You have made great contributions to >>>this list, including the recent postings on celibacy. But slurs on >>>scholars such as this "mind on sex" thing are unbecoming of you. >>>Please control yourself in future. You have been such a great >>>contributor and I do not want to punish you. I do not even want to >>>have to warn you again. Please co-operate.. >>> >>>Also, kindly make sure that you are not misrepresenting your guru >>>here. I say it especially because all the classics are in agreement on >>>Scorpio and you are contradicting all of them in the name of your guru >>>(who is my guru too)! >>> >>>Libra does represent the pelival region that includes some body parts >>>that are important for sexual activity, but the classics are clear in >>>saying that genitals themselves are represented by Scorpio and not Libra.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>As for celibacy, I have AGAIN quoted my Guruji. The rest is up to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I have no complaints with you in that matter! :-) >>> >>>Role of Mars in celibabcy (or lack of it) is quite complicated and >>>dualistic. >>> >>>For example, Parasara and Jaimini both taught that Venus and Mars in >>>2nd from swamsa make one very licentious in sexual matters. This is >>>the opposite of celibabcy! At the same time, Mars rules over >>>Brahmacharyashrama.. He has a dual role to play and various scholars, >>>including you, have pointed out various factors very nicely. It was a >>>nice discussion. Keep it up! >>> >>>May Jupiter's light shine on us, >>> >>>Narasimha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Monier Williams gives the following for Basti (vasti); lower belly , >>>>abdomen VarBr2S. Ka1s3i1Kh. the pelvis MW. >>>> >>>> >>>>Visti Larsen >>>>visti@s <visti@s>... >>>> >>>> >>>>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>>>14 June 2004 23:05 >>>>Visti @ Denmark >>>>Cc: vedic astrology >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>><vedic astrology> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mars.... is he really karaka for >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>celebecy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>? To Sjt.Visti Larsen >>>> >>>>Dear Visti, >>>>You wrote" As for sexual organs, Scorpio represents the private parts... >>>>this is not >>>>the sexual organs but the anus, which is hidden and hence private -* >>>>when ones mind is on sex then even private parts become sexual >>>>organs!* Now I quote Guruji and again state; the 8th house indicates >>>>the Anus >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>(it is >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>private because it is hidden) whilst the 7th house shows the >>>>reproductive organs." >>>>Your statement which I have made in bold types is utterly uncalled >>>>for and crosses the boundaries of decency.Desist from such comments >>>>in future.They are not in good taste. >>>>As to what is 8th house, I wish some body takes pains to read BPHS >>>>Chapter 4 and Shloka3 and 4 before attributing something to >>>>Parashara.I would like to know what is your English translation of >>>>Sanskrit word Basti and Guhya that are said to be the body parts of >>>>Kalapurusha represented by Tula and Vrishchika rasi by the Venerated >>>> >>>> >Sage. > > >>>>Perhaps I am not as good at English as others, but I do not think >>>>that Private parts does not refer to sexual organs.Perhaps some >>>>gentleman having good command over English language would like to >>>>comment. As for Deha-vivar, the hole you are reffering to, do I >>>>really need to teach anatomy on the list? Please check up the meaning of >>>> >>>> >Navadwara. > > >>>>Regards, >>>>Chandrashekhar. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Archives: http://www...comvedic astrology >>><vedic astrology> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ........ >>> >>>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || >>> >>> >>>* Sponsor* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >><http://us.ard./SIG=129he2tcb/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176 >>/D=gr >>oups/S=1705082686:HM/EXP=1087483022/A=2164339/R=0/SIG=11e2d64in/*http://www >> >> >.. > > >>netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183348> >> >> >> >> >>>---- >>>-- >>>* Links* >>> >>> * >>> vedic astrology/ >>> * >>> vedic astrology >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >><vedic astrology?subject=Un >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> * Terms of >>> Service <>. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >------------------------ Sponsor --------------------~--> Make >a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar. >Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! >http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/.8XolB/TM >--~-> > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 Dear Chandrashekharji, As I wrote in a another mail to you under a different thread; from what I remember: testicles, vagina and the anus are Scorpio. So where is the Kalpurusha without sexual organs? But I do not agree with you at all about the phallus. It is different. I know conception does not happen in the vagina ...I think all women know that Chandrashekhraji ...but I did not wish to waste time describing the process in detail here, as I am sure most people are already aware of it...BUT definitely the functions and purpose of the vagina and the phallus are different, simply on the basis that the reproductive functions of the male and the female are different vastly...both in quality and the quantity. It is but natural...but lets leave it at this... Sarbani Chandrashekhar [boxdel] Saturday, June 19, 2004 12:35 AM Sarbani Sarkar Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya Dear Sarbani,stly I am glad you see the basic structure to be right. Now if you look at the graphics carefully, you will notice that both the organs serve as a passage and delivery system. Both have different openings/addendums within them for discharge of excretory fluids though at may be at different places and for different fluids. The shapes are definitely different and therefore apparently there may appear to be difference between them, but they are not exclusive to each other in function but rather complimentary. However both are only delivery system for reproduction to happen at a different place. That conception does not happen within the Vagina, needs to be understood. As the Penile structure is a delivery mechanism for semen Vagina is a receptacle for the semen. It however does not receive the ovum. The meeting of the two occurs after the spermatozoa pass the oss uteri and reproduction occurs in uterus. Whether the ovum gets fertilised by the sperm or not decides whether it is going to be attached to the wall of uterus or otherwise. Other processes described by you are right. However now let us turn back to the original topic. As you have seen Vagina proper, and not vulva, being hidden from sight and incapable of being sighted with out using a vaginal speculum, how would it become capable of being called Guhya ( that which should not be revealed)? Guhya is something that can be easily perceived by others if not guarded/covered specifically. That is the connotation of Guhya when we talk about a Guhya Mantra too. Now if we accept the argument on a hypothetical basis and exclude phallus and testicles as being related to Scorpio, would the Kalapurusha be without Sexual organs? Libra being Basti, Scorpio being Anus and Sagittarius being Uru, the Kalapurusha would have to be with out sexual organs, is it not? I am certain with more contemplation you will understand the contradiction if we accept the premise of Scorpio not being Sexual organs of Kalapurusha. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >Dear Chandrashekharji, > >Yes you are right that the urethra and clitoris are separate and the >urethra is used for urination. The urethra is placed about the vaginal >orifice and the clitoris is situated above the urethra. So the female >has three orifices, if we include the anus: vagina, urethra and anus, >whereas the male has only two: phallus and anus. BUT I definitely stand >by the fact that the vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive >functions. The vaginal passage leads up to the cervix towards the mouth >of the uterus, which is further connected to the two ovaries through >the fallopian tubes. The vaginal opening is used for mating/copulation >and is the opening where the seminal fluid is deposited. If the sperm >and the egg fertilize to form the zygote then it travels up and plants >itself on the uterus to develop the foetus. If not then the uterus wall >sheds every cycle to menstruate through the vagina.(This coincides with >the lunar cycle of 27+ days; in the US among a certain section, it is >fashionable to refer to this phase as 'Moon'). When the baby is ready to be delivered then it too comes out through the vagina. >So the vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive purposes. The >urinary opening is SEPARATE in the female body and situated above the >vaginal opening. This is the main point I wished to make. In the male, >the phallus is used both for urination and for mating/copulation and >for ejecting the seminal fluid into the vagina. This is the PRIMARY and >BIG difference between a male and female anatomy. No I was not talking >about the vulva and the labia, which together enfolds the entire female >genitalia. In the female we are talking of a urinary opening, an >excretory opening and a reproductive opening. In the male we are >talking about an excretory opening and urinary-cum-reproductive >opening. This is the crucial difference we should keep in mind whilst >we sort out the libra/scorpio issue...eventually > >Best regards, > >Sarbani > > >Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >Friday, June 18, 2004 2:31 AM >sarbani >Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya > >Dear Sarbani, > >You are right, We should wait for Sanjay's comments. In the meanwhile, >since you have no problems discussing human anatomy, let me clarify the >difference between various organs in order to remove confusion about their function. >Here is what Cambridge dictionary says about Clitoris. >"clitoris [show phonetics] <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=14250&ph=on> >noun [C] >a sexual organ above the vagina which can give a woman sexual pleasure >when it is touched" and what it says about Urethra."urethra [show >phonetics] <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=87461&ph=on> >noun [C] plural urethras or SPECIALIZED urethrae the tube in most >mammals which carries urine from the bladder out of the body. In males >it also carries sperm. >" >I am attaching two diagrams showing Male and female reproductive systems. >They will clarify that clitoris is not an excretory organ and Urethra >and clitoris are different organs, both located in Vagina. Study them >and then we can revert back to the discussion. You will also find >similarity in the urethra and seminal fluid carrying in male and female >reproductory systems, and the route though apparently different follows similar delivery systems. >This would also clarify any confusion about Vagina being exclusively >reserved for reproductive purposes as there are three sections of it >each with different functions. >I trust this would remove any confusion about clitoris being the organ >of delivery of excreta. >Regards, >Chandrashekhar. > >Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > > > >>Dear Chandrashekharji, >> >>I agree with you as its highly likely that I have not understood this >>properly. I was not attentive I must confess; I happen to listen in to >>a lot of things - though not at all carefully - when Sanjayji was >>teaching Visti, Freedom and Eric. This was not part of the regular >>class, but the snatch of a conversation that I overhead. So it's best >>if >> >> >Sanjayji clarifies. > > >>But let me comment upon a couple of things. The vagina is an organ >>equivalent to the phallus but EXCLUSIVELY for reproductive purposes. >>It is used for mating in order that the seminal fluid may be deposited >>there, which may be then carried to the uterus via the cervix for >>conception. It is used for menstruation. It is NOT used for urinary >>excretion, which is through the clitoris, the urethra being the >>internal channel and the clitoris the outer organ through which the >>urine is ejected. The phallus on the other hand is for BOTH >>reproductive and urinary. This is the difference between a male and a >>female. This is probably because the female has very exclusive >>reproductive functions: the vagina is the medium through which the >>child is >> >> >delivered to the world and through which menstruation takes place. > > >>So its unimaginable that it should be also used for urinary purposes. >>The male on the other hand have no reproductive functions except for >>depositing the seminal fluid. So the phallus doubles as urinary and >>the channel through which the seminal fluid is ejected. >> >>I still think the division is between visible and hidden and not >>between reproductive and excretory...but I think it may be wise to >>wait for Sanjayji to download his mails and clarify this to us. I hope >>you do not mind my discussing physical anatomy but we are all educated >>adults and I have no problems in discussing these things openly >> >> >academically. > > >>Best regards, >> >>Sarbani >> >>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:41 AM >>Sarbani Sarkar >>Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >>Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >> >>Dear Sarbani, >>There appears to be some confusion here. It would be better if Sanjay >>comments on this. I am certain he was trying to explain something else. >>The reason I say this is, there is contradiction in the categorisation >>of organs and also understanding of Human anatomy in the explanation. >>I had not wanted to discuss human anatomy on the list and had >>indicated this in my message to Visti. However you have done so now, I >>think it is better we set the record straight. >>If Libra indicates excretory organ and therefore Phallus is ruled by >>it, why anus the other excretory organ be ruled by Scorpio and not Libra. >>The Mollier dictionary translates Guhya as pudenda( mfn. (Pa1n2. 3-1 , >>109 Ka1s3. g. %{daNDA7di}) to be covered or concealed or hidden or >>kept secret , concealable , private , secret , mysterious , mystical RV. AV. >>&c.* the pudenda *Sus3r. VarBr2S. Katha1s. ii , 56 (cf. 1. %{gR4hya}) >>the anus W.) amongst other meanings and it means per English dictionary: >>*Definitions* >>*pudenda* >>/plural noun/ >> >> /pudendum/ >> 1. The external sexual organs, especially those of a woman. >> >>*/Etymology/*: 17c: Latin, literally ‘things to be ashamed of', >> >> >>from /pudere/ to be ashamed. > > >>There also appears to be some confusion about Anatomy and reproduction >>here. Clitoris is not urinary excretory organ but Urethra definitely is. >>The former is female equivalent of a Male Phallus. The dictionary >>meaning of the former is: >>*Definitions* >>*clitoris* >>/noun/ >> >> /clitorises/ >> 1. /_anatomy._/ >> In female mammals: a small highly sensitive organ located in >> front of the opening of the vagina, which like the penis in >> males, becomes erect when sexually stimulated. >> >>*/Derivative/*: clitoral >>/adj/ >>*/Etymology/*: 17c: from Greek /kleitoris/. >> >> >>Again if one calls testicles as reproductive organ but excludes >>Phallus >> >> >>from that category then Vagina should also be excluded as reproductive > > >>organ and Ovary substituted for it. I think the confusion is about >>external reproductive organs and internal reproductive organs, which >>together constitute the entire reproductive system. I think what >>Sanjay was trying to convey was that the internal reproductive and >>excretory organs are governed by Libra and the External ones by >>Scorpio. That is an absolutely correct statement. Basti is the region >>of internal reproductive and excretory organs and External >>Reproductive and Excretory organs ( also known as Sexual organs) are the Guhyas. >>.. >>Regards, >>Chandrashekhar. >>Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>Dear Narasimha, >>> >>>I do not wish to butt into a discussion among gurus but if I >>>recollect correctly, what Sanjayji was trying to tell us at that >>>point is that Libra represents the visible organs of the pelvic >>>region. This includes the clitoris (excretory (urinary) organ) and >>>the phallus (excretory (urinary) and reproductive organ). Scorpio >>>represents the organs which are not visible, rather they are >>>hidden…or that they ought to be hidden. These include the anus >>>(excretory organ), vagina (reproductive organ) and the testicles >>>(reproductive organs). The phallus is primarily excretory, sometimes >>>used for discharging seminal fluid; the testicles are on the other hand purely reproductive organs. >>>So the classification is more on the lines of >>>visibility/hiding/enshrouding. Scorpio hides both reproductive and >>>excretory organs. This is as far as I understood. >>> >>>Best regards, >>> >>>Sarbani >>> >>>--- >>>- >>>-- >>> >>>** Narasimha P.V.R. Rao [pvr] >>>*Sent:* Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:35 AM >>>*To:* Vedic Astrology Group >>>*Subject:* [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >>> >>>Namaste Visti, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Dear Chandrashekhar and Narasimha, Namaskar The highlighted portion >>>>about people's minds was not meant for you, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>but all >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>the other translators of the word Guhya in the classical books. I'm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>sorry if >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>you took this phrase wrongly upon you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Well, thanks for the clarification. But I am even more offended now. >>> >>>It is well within your right to believe in what you *think* your guru >>>taught you. But, you have no business speculating about the mindsets >>>of people who translate otherwise. Scholars translated Guhya the way >>>they did because it is the only correct way and because other >>>classics used far less ambiguous words to make things clearer. They >>>did so for valid and intelligent reasons. It is certainly not because >>>their "mind is on sex" as your slur says. Your phrase is offensive >>>even if it was not meant for Chandrashekhar ji and me. >>> >>>For example, the great Dr. B. Suryanarain Row (grandfather of Dr. >>>Raman) associated the term "sexual organs" with Scorpio in his >>>translations of Brihajjatakam and Sarvartha Chintamani. In fact, this >>>is the standard view of most scholars. If you disagree with them, do >>>so respectfully. There is no need for arrogant slurs. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Now keep in mind that I did not come up with this idea - This is the >>>>explanation given to me by Guruji, here goes; Guhya means hidden and >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>refers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>to those parts of the body which one cannot see - not those one >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>should hide. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>If you stand up straight and look at the mirror the genitals will be >>>>perfectly visible, however the anus will not and is hidden by the >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>buttocks. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>This is what is meant by hidden. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>In Sanskrit, the suffixes -ya and -ta are different. Looks like >>>you do not understand the difference between them. For example, pooj >>>means "to pray to". Poojita means "prayed to". OTOH, "poojya" means >>>"prayable" or "one who is worthy of being prayed to". Similarly, >>>laksh means "to view". Lakshita means "viewed". Lakshya means "one >>>that is worthy of being viewed". That is why lakshya means target. >>>Sish means "to refine, discipline and culture". Sishta means a >>>cultured person (i.e. one who has been refined and cultured). OTOH, >>>sishya means one who needs to be refined and cultured. That is why >>>sishya means a student. Similarly, gupta means hidden (e.g. gupta >>>dhana=hidden treasure). But guhya means one that needs to be hidden. >>>In mantras, secretive mantras that need to be hidden are said to be "guhyam". >>>Anyone who knows Sanskrit well will know that gupta means hidden and >>>guhya means "one that needs to be hidden". >>> >>>So guhyas are not parts that you cannot see in the mirror or >>>something like that. They are parts that need to be hidden. Basically >>>they are the secretive parts of the body (that is why Jataka >>>Parijatam uses the term "rahasya desa" (secret area) instead of Guhya). >>> >>>Even if you disagree, please see my earlier quotes from other >>>classics which are far less ambiguous. Other scholars such as >>>Varahamihira, Kalyana Verma and Mantreswara used clearer words in the >>>place of Guhya. If one looks at all the classics, all doubts should be cleared. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Libra is the natural 7th house and deals >>>> >>>> >>>>with mating, and this being for the sake of producing children. >>>> >>>>Now I never said that Päräçara said this, I said my Guruji said this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Take >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>it or leave it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Visti, had you said just that, it would've been a perfectly >>>acceptable stand. But there is a huge difference between following >>>one's guru and >>>*insulting* other great scholars. You have made great contributions >>>to this list, including the recent postings on celibacy. But slurs on >>>scholars such as this "mind on sex" thing are unbecoming of you. >>>Please control yourself in future. You have been such a great >>>contributor and I do not want to punish you. I do not even want to >>>have to warn you again. Please co-operate.. >>> >>>Also, kindly make sure that you are not misrepresenting your guru >>>here. I say it especially because all the classics are in agreement >>>on Scorpio and you are contradicting all of them in the name of your >>>guru (who is my guru too)! >>> >>>Libra does represent the pelival region that includes some body parts >>>that are important for sexual activity, but the classics are clear in >>>saying that genitals themselves are represented by Scorpio and not Libra.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>As for celibacy, I have AGAIN quoted my Guruji. The rest is up to you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I have no complaints with you in that matter! :-) >>> >>>Role of Mars in celibabcy (or lack of it) is quite complicated and >>>dualistic. >>> >>>For example, Parasara and Jaimini both taught that Venus and Mars in >>>2nd from swamsa make one very licentious in sexual matters. This is >>>the opposite of celibabcy! At the same time, Mars rules over >>>Brahmacharyashrama.. He has a dual role to play and various scholars, >>>including you, have pointed out various factors very nicely. It was a >>>nice discussion. Keep it up! >>> >>>May Jupiter's light shine on us, >>> >>>Narasimha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Monier Williams gives the following for Basti (vasti); lower belly , >>>>abdomen VarBr2S. Ka1s3i1Kh. the pelvis MW. >>>> >>>> >>>>Visti Larsen >>>>visti@s <visti@s>... >>>> >>>> >>>>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>>>14 June 2004 23:05 >>>>Visti @ Denmark >>>>Cc: vedic astrology >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>><vedic astrology> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mars.... is he really karaka for >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>celebecy >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>? To Sjt.Visti Larsen >>>> >>>>Dear Visti, >>>>You wrote" As for sexual organs, Scorpio represents the private parts... >>>>this is not >>>>the sexual organs but the anus, which is hidden and hence private -* >>>>when ones mind is on sex then even private parts become sexual >>>>organs!* Now I quote Guruji and again state; the 8th house indicates >>>>the Anus >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>(it is >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>private because it is hidden) whilst the 7th house shows the >>>>reproductive organs." >>>>Your statement which I have made in bold types is utterly uncalled >>>>for and crosses the boundaries of decency.Desist from such comments >>>>in future.They are not in good taste. >>>>As to what is 8th house, I wish some body takes pains to read BPHS >>>>Chapter 4 and Shloka3 and 4 before attributing something to >>>>Parashara.I would like to know what is your English translation of >>>>Sanskrit word Basti and Guhya that are said to be the body parts of >>>>Kalapurusha represented by Tula and Vrishchika rasi by the Venerated >>>> >>>> >Sage. > > >>>>Perhaps I am not as good at English as others, but I do not think >>>>that Private parts does not refer to sexual organs.Perhaps some >>>>gentleman having good command over English language would like to >>>>comment. As for Deha-vivar, the hole you are reffering to, do I >>>>really need to teach anatomy on the list? Please check up the >>>>meaning of >>>> >>>> >Navadwara. > > >>>>Regards, >>>>Chandrashekhar. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Archives: http://www...comvedic astrology >>><vedic astrology> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ........ >>> >>>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || >>> >>> >>>* Sponsor* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >><http://us.ard./SIG=129he2tcb/M=298184.5022502.6152625.300117 >>6 >>/D=gr >>oups/S=1705082686:HM/EXP=1087483022/A=2164339/R=0/SIG=11e2d64in/*http: >>//www >> >> >.. > > >>netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183348> >> >> >> >> >>>--- >>>- >>>-- >>>* Links* >>> >>> * >>> vedic astrology/ >>> * >>> vedic astrology >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >><vedic astrology?subject=Unsubscrib >>e >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> * Terms of >>> Service <>. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >------------------------ Sponsor --------------------~--> >Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar. >Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! >http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/.8XolB/TM >--~-> > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 Dear Chandrashekharji, I am as confused...I just hope Sanjayji quickly replies to us and shares his thoughts...I know he is busy with his papers for the coming trips...but, still... Best regards, Sarbani Chandrashekhar [boxdel] Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:21 AM Sarbani Sarkar Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya Dear Sarbani, If the Kalapurusha is without phallus, would he not be missing an important sexual organ? About the rest, I was certain that you are aware of functions of organs. I was just pointing out that if one was not a reproductive organ since conception could not occur within it, then so was also the case with other. Regards, Chandrashekhar. Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >Dear Chandrashekharji, > >As I wrote in a another mail to you under a different thread; from what I >remember: testicles, vagina and the anus are Scorpio. So where is the >Kalpurusha without sexual organs? But I do not agree with you at all about >the phallus. It is different. I know conception does not happen in the >vagina ...I think all women know that Chandrashekhraji ...but I did not >wish to waste time describing the process in detail here, as I am sure most >people are already aware of it...BUT definitely the functions and purpose of >the vagina and the phallus are different, simply on the basis that the >reproductive functions of the male and the female are different >vastly...both in quality and the quantity. It is but natural...but lets >leave it at this... > >Sarbani > > >Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >Saturday, June 19, 2004 12:35 AM >Sarbani Sarkar >Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya > >Dear Sarbani,stly > >I am glad you see the basic structure to be right. Now if you look at the >graphics carefully, you will notice that both the organs serve as a passage >and delivery system. Both have different openings/addendums within them for >discharge of excretory fluids though at may be at different places and for >different fluids. The shapes are definitely different and therefore >apparently there may appear to be difference between them, but they are not >exclusive to each other in function but rather complimentary. However both >are only delivery system for reproduction to happen at a different place. > >That conception does not happen within the Vagina, needs to be understood. >As the Penile structure is a delivery mechanism for semen Vagina is a >receptacle for the semen. It however does not receive the ovum. The meeting >of the two occurs after the spermatozoa pass the oss uteri and reproduction >occurs in uterus. Whether the ovum gets fertilised by the sperm or not >decides whether it is going to be attached to the wall of uterus or >otherwise. > >Other processes described by you are right. However now let us turn back to >the original topic. As you have seen Vagina proper, and not vulva, being >hidden from sight and incapable of being sighted with out using a vaginal >speculum, how would it become capable of being called Guhya ( that which >should not be revealed)? Guhya is something that can be easily perceived by >others if not guarded/covered specifically. That is the connotation of Guhya >when we talk about a Guhya Mantra too. > >Now if we accept the argument on a hypothetical basis and exclude phallus >and testicles as being related to Scorpio, would the Kalapurusha be without >Sexual organs? Libra being Basti, Scorpio being Anus and Sagittarius being >Uru, the Kalapurusha would have to be with out sexual organs, is it not? I >am certain with more contemplation you will understand the contradiction if >we accept the premise of Scorpio not being Sexual organs of Kalapurusha. >Regards, >Chandrashekhar. > >Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > > > >>Dear Chandrashekharji, >> >>Yes you are right that the urethra and clitoris are separate and the >>urethra is used for urination. The urethra is placed about the vaginal >>orifice and the clitoris is situated above the urethra. So the female >>has three orifices, if we include the anus: vagina, urethra and anus, >>whereas the male has only two: phallus and anus. BUT I definitely stand >>by the fact that the vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive >>functions. The vaginal passage leads up to the cervix towards the mouth >>of the uterus, which is further connected to the two ovaries through >>the fallopian tubes. The vaginal opening is used for mating/copulation >>and is the opening where the seminal fluid is deposited. If the sperm >>and the egg fertilize to form the zygote then it travels up and plants >>itself on the uterus to develop the foetus. If not then the uterus wall >>sheds every cycle to menstruate through the vagina.(This coincides with >>the lunar cycle of 27+ days; in the US among a certain section, it is >>fashionable to refer to this phase as 'Moon'). When the baby is ready to be >> >> >delivered then it too comes out through the vagina. > > >>So the vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive purposes. The >>urinary opening is SEPARATE in the female body and situated above the >>vaginal opening. This is the main point I wished to make. In the male, >>the phallus is used both for urination and for mating/copulation and >>for ejecting the seminal fluid into the vagina. This is the PRIMARY and >>BIG difference between a male and female anatomy. No I was not talking >>about the vulva and the labia, which together enfolds the entire female >>genitalia. In the female we are talking of a urinary opening, an >>excretory opening and a reproductive opening. In the male we are >>talking about an excretory opening and urinary-cum-reproductive >>opening. This is the crucial difference we should keep in mind whilst >>we sort out the libra/scorpio issue...eventually >> >>Best regards, >> >>Sarbani >> >> >>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>Friday, June 18, 2004 2:31 AM >>sarbani >>Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >>Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >> >>Dear Sarbani, >> >>You are right, We should wait for Sanjay's comments. In the meanwhile, >>since you have no problems discussing human anatomy, let me clarify the >>difference between various organs in order to remove confusion about their >> >> >function. > > >>Here is what Cambridge dictionary says about Clitoris. >>"clitoris [show phonetics] <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=14250&ph=on> >>noun [C] >>a sexual organ above the vagina which can give a woman sexual pleasure >>when it is touched" and what it says about Urethra."urethra [show >>phonetics] <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=87461&ph=on> >>noun [C] plural urethras or SPECIALIZED urethrae the tube in most >>mammals which carries urine from the bladder out of the body. In males >>it also carries sperm. >>" >>I am attaching two diagrams showing Male and female reproductive systems. >>They will clarify that clitoris is not an excretory organ and Urethra >>and clitoris are different organs, both located in Vagina. Study them >>and then we can revert back to the discussion. You will also find >>similarity in the urethra and seminal fluid carrying in male and female >>reproductory systems, and the route though apparently different follows >> >> >similar delivery systems. > > >>This would also clarify any confusion about Vagina being exclusively >>reserved for reproductive purposes as there are three sections of it >>each with different functions. >>I trust this would remove any confusion about clitoris being the organ >>of delivery of excreta. >>Regards, >>Chandrashekhar. >> >>Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>Dear Chandrashekharji, >>> >>>I agree with you as its highly likely that I have not understood this >>>properly. I was not attentive I must confess; I happen to listen in to >>>a lot of things - though not at all carefully - when Sanjayji was >>>teaching Visti, Freedom and Eric. This was not part of the regular >>>class, but the snatch of a conversation that I overhead. So it's best >>>if >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Sanjayji clarifies. >> >> >> >> >>>But let me comment upon a couple of things. The vagina is an organ >>>equivalent to the phallus but EXCLUSIVELY for reproductive purposes. >>>It is used for mating in order that the seminal fluid may be deposited >>>there, which may be then carried to the uterus via the cervix for >>>conception. It is used for menstruation. It is NOT used for urinary >>>excretion, which is through the clitoris, the urethra being the >>>internal channel and the clitoris the outer organ through which the >>>urine is ejected. The phallus on the other hand is for BOTH >>>reproductive and urinary. This is the difference between a male and a >>>female. This is probably because the female has very exclusive >>>reproductive functions: the vagina is the medium through which the >>>child is >>> >>> >>> >>> >>delivered to the world and through which menstruation takes place. >> >> >> >> >>>So its unimaginable that it should be also used for urinary purposes. >>>The male on the other hand have no reproductive functions except for >>>depositing the seminal fluid. So the phallus doubles as urinary and >>>the channel through which the seminal fluid is ejected. >>> >>>I still think the division is between visible and hidden and not >>>between reproductive and excretory...but I think it may be wise to >>>wait for Sanjayji to download his mails and clarify this to us. I hope >>>you do not mind my discussing physical anatomy but we are all educated >>>adults and I have no problems in discussing these things openly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>academically. >> >> >> >> >>>Best regards, >>> >>>Sarbani >>> >>>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>>Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:41 AM >>>Sarbani Sarkar >>>Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >>>Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >>> >>>Dear Sarbani, >>>There appears to be some confusion here. It would be better if Sanjay >>>comments on this. I am certain he was trying to explain something else. >>>The reason I say this is, there is contradiction in the categorisation >>>of organs and also understanding of Human anatomy in the explanation. >>>I had not wanted to discuss human anatomy on the list and had >>>indicated this in my message to Visti. However you have done so now, I >>>think it is better we set the record straight. >>>If Libra indicates excretory organ and therefore Phallus is ruled by >>>it, why anus the other excretory organ be ruled by Scorpio and not Libra. >>>The Mollier dictionary translates Guhya as pudenda( mfn. (Pa1n2. 3-1 , >>>109 Ka1s3. g. %{daNDA7di}) to be covered or concealed or hidden or >>>kept secret , concealable , private , secret , mysterious , mystical RV. >>> >>> >AV. > > >>>&c.* the pudenda *Sus3r. VarBr2S. Katha1s. ii , 56 (cf. 1. %{gR4hya}) >>>the anus W.) amongst other meanings and it means per English dictionary: >>>*Definitions* >>>*pudenda* >>>/plural noun/ >>> >>> /pudendum/ >>> 1. The external sexual organs, especially those of a woman. >>> >>>*/Etymology/*: 17c: Latin, literally ‘things to be ashamed of', >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>from /pudere/ to be ashamed. >> >> >> >> >>>There also appears to be some confusion about Anatomy and reproduction >>>here. Clitoris is not urinary excretory organ but Urethra definitely is. >>>The former is female equivalent of a Male Phallus. The dictionary >>>meaning of the former is: >>>*Definitions* >>>*clitoris* >>>/noun/ >>> >>> /clitorises/ >>> 1. /_anatomy._/ >>> In female mammals: a small highly sensitive organ located in >>> front of the opening of the vagina, which like the penis in >>> males, becomes erect when sexually stimulated. >>> >>>*/Derivative/*: clitoral >>>/adj/ >>>*/Etymology/*: 17c: from Greek /kleitoris/. >>> >>> >>>Again if one calls testicles as reproductive organ but excludes >>>Phallus >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>from that category then Vagina should also be excluded as reproductive >> >> >> >> >>>organ and Ovary substituted for it. I think the confusion is about >>>external reproductive organs and internal reproductive organs, which >>>together constitute the entire reproductive system. I think what >>>Sanjay was trying to convey was that the internal reproductive and >>>excretory organs are governed by Libra and the External ones by >>>Scorpio. That is an absolutely correct statement. Basti is the region >>>of internal reproductive and excretory organs and External >>>Reproductive and Excretory organs ( also known as Sexual organs) are the >>> >>> >Guhyas. > > >>>.. >>>Regards, >>>Chandrashekhar. >>>Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Dear Narasimha, >>>> >>>>I do not wish to butt into a discussion among gurus but if I >>>>recollect correctly, what Sanjayji was trying to tell us at that >>>>point is that Libra represents the visible organs of the pelvic >>>>region. This includes the clitoris (excretory (urinary) organ) and >>>>the phallus (excretory (urinary) and reproductive organ). Scorpio >>>>represents the organs which are not visible, rather they are >>>>hidden…or that they ought to be hidden. These include the anus >>>>(excretory organ), vagina (reproductive organ) and the testicles >>>>(reproductive organs). The phallus is primarily excretory, sometimes >>>>used for discharging seminal fluid; the testicles are on the other hand >>>> >>>> >purely reproductive organs. > > >>>>So the classification is more on the lines of >>>>visibility/hiding/enshrouding. Scorpio hides both reproductive and >>>>excretory organs. This is as far as I understood. >>>> >>>>Best regards, >>>> >>>>Sarbani >>>> >>>>--- >>>>- >>>>-- >>>> >>>>** Narasimha P.V.R. Rao [pvr] >>>>*Sent:* Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:35 AM >>>>*To:* Vedic Astrology Group >>>>*Subject:* [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >>>> >>>>Namaste Visti, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Dear Chandrashekhar and Narasimha, Namaskar The highlighted portion >>>>>about people's minds was not meant for you, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>but all >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>the other translators of the word Guhya in the classical books. I'm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>sorry if >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>you took this phrase wrongly upon you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Well, thanks for the clarification. But I am even more offended now. >>>> >>>>It is well within your right to believe in what you *think* your guru >>>>taught you. But, you have no business speculating about the mindsets >>>>of people who translate otherwise. Scholars translated Guhya the way >>>>they did because it is the only correct way and because other >>>>classics used far less ambiguous words to make things clearer. They >>>>did so for valid and intelligent reasons. It is certainly not because >>>>their "mind is on sex" as your slur says. Your phrase is offensive >>>>even if it was not meant for Chandrashekhar ji and me. >>>> >>>>For example, the great Dr. B. Suryanarain Row (grandfather of Dr. >>>>Raman) associated the term "sexual organs" with Scorpio in his >>>>translations of Brihajjatakam and Sarvartha Chintamani. In fact, this >>>>is the standard view of most scholars. If you disagree with them, do >>>>so respectfully. There is no need for arrogant slurs. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Now keep in mind that I did not come up with this idea - This is the >>>>>explanation given to me by Guruji, here goes; Guhya means hidden and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>refers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>to those parts of the body which one cannot see - not those one >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>should hide. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>If you stand up straight and look at the mirror the genitals will be >>>>>perfectly visible, however the anus will not and is hidden by the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>buttocks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>This is what is meant by hidden. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>In Sanskrit, the suffixes -ya and -ta are different. Looks like >>>>you do not understand the difference between them. For example, pooj >>>>means "to pray to". Poojita means "prayed to". OTOH, "poojya" means >>>>"prayable" or "one who is worthy of being prayed to". Similarly, >>>>laksh means "to view". Lakshita means "viewed". Lakshya means "one >>>>that is worthy of being viewed". That is why lakshya means target. >>>>Sish means "to refine, discipline and culture". Sishta means a >>>>cultured person (i.e. one who has been refined and cultured). OTOH, >>>>sishya means one who needs to be refined and cultured. That is why >>>>sishya means a student. Similarly, gupta means hidden (e.g. gupta >>>>dhana=hidden treasure). But guhya means one that needs to be hidden. >>>>In mantras, secretive mantras that need to be hidden are said to be >>>> >>>> >"guhyam". > > >>>>Anyone who knows Sanskrit well will know that gupta means hidden and >>>>guhya means "one that needs to be hidden". >>>> >>>>So guhyas are not parts that you cannot see in the mirror or >>>>something like that. They are parts that need to be hidden. Basically >>>>they are the secretive parts of the body (that is why Jataka >>>>Parijatam uses the term "rahasya desa" (secret area) instead of Guhya). >>>> >>>>Even if you disagree, please see my earlier quotes from other >>>>classics which are far less ambiguous. Other scholars such as >>>>Varahamihira, Kalyana Verma and Mantreswara used clearer words in the >>>>place of Guhya. If one looks at all the classics, all doubts should be >>>> >>>> >cleared. > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Libra is the natural 7th house and deals >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>with mating, and this being for the sake of producing children. >>>>> >>>>>Now I never said that Päräçara said this, I said my Guruji said this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Take >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>it or leave it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Visti, had you said just that, it would've been a perfectly >>>>acceptable stand. But there is a huge difference between following >>>>one's guru and >>>>*insulting* other great scholars. You have made great contributions >>>>to this list, including the recent postings on celibacy. But slurs on >>>>scholars such as this "mind on sex" thing are unbecoming of you. >>>>Please control yourself in future. You have been such a great >>>>contributor and I do not want to punish you. I do not even want to >>>>have to warn you again. Please co-operate.. >>>> >>>>Also, kindly make sure that you are not misrepresenting your guru >>>>here. I say it especially because all the classics are in agreement >>>>on Scorpio and you are contradicting all of them in the name of your >>>>guru (who is my guru too)! >>>> >>>>Libra does represent the pelival region that includes some body parts >>>>that are important for sexual activity, but the classics are clear in >>>>saying that genitals themselves are represented by Scorpio and not >>>> >>>> >Libra.. > > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>As for celibacy, I have AGAIN quoted my Guruji. The rest is up to you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>I have no complaints with you in that matter! :-) >>>> >>>>Role of Mars in celibabcy (or lack of it) is quite complicated and >>>>dualistic. >>>> >>>>For example, Parasara and Jaimini both taught that Venus and Mars in >>>>2nd from swamsa make one very licentious in sexual matters. This is >>>>the opposite of celibabcy! At the same time, Mars rules over >>>>Brahmacharyashrama.. He has a dual role to play and various scholars, >>>>including you, have pointed out various factors very nicely. It was a >>>>nice discussion. Keep it up! >>>> >>>>May Jupiter's light shine on us, >>>> >>>>Narasimha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Monier Williams gives the following for Basti (vasti); lower belly , >>>>>abdomen VarBr2S. Ka1s3i1Kh. the pelvis MW. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Visti Larsen >>>>>visti@s <visti@s>... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>>>>14 June 2004 23:05 >>>>>Visti @ Denmark >>>>>Cc: vedic astrology >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>><vedic astrology> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mars.... is he really karaka for >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>celebecy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>? To Sjt.Visti Larsen >>>>> >>>>>Dear Visti, >>>>>You wrote" As for sexual organs, Scorpio represents the private parts... >>>>>this is not >>>>>the sexual organs but the anus, which is hidden and hence private -* >>>>>when ones mind is on sex then even private parts become sexual >>>>>organs!* Now I quote Guruji and again state; the 8th house indicates >>>>>the Anus >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>(it is >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>private because it is hidden) whilst the 7th house shows the >>>>>reproductive organs." >>>>>Your statement which I have made in bold types is utterly uncalled >>>>>for and crosses the boundaries of decency.Desist from such comments >>>>>in future.They are not in good taste. >>>>>As to what is 8th house, I wish some body takes pains to read BPHS >>>>>Chapter 4 and Shloka3 and 4 before attributing something to >>>>>Parashara.I would like to know what is your English translation of >>>>>Sanskrit word Basti and Guhya that are said to be the body parts of >>>>>Kalapurusha represented by Tula and Vrishchika rasi by the Venerated >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>Sage. >> >> >> >> >>>>>Perhaps I am not as good at English as others, but I do not think >>>>>that Private parts does not refer to sexual organs.Perhaps some >>>>>gentleman having good command over English language would like to >>>>>comment. As for Deha-vivar, the hole you are reffering to, do I >>>>>really need to teach anatomy on the list? Please check up the >>>>>meaning of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>Navadwara. >> >> >> >> >>>>>Regards, >>>>>Chandrashekhar. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Archives: http://www...comvedic astrology >>>><vedic astrology> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ........ >>>> >>>>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || >>>> >>>> >>>>* Sponsor* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>><http://us.ard./SIG=129he2tcb/M=298184.5022502.6152625.300117 >>>6 >>>/D=gr >>>oups/S=1705082686:HM/EXP=1087483022/A=2164339/R=0/SIG=11e2d64in/*http: >>>//www >>> >>> >>> >>> >>.. >> >> >> >> >>>netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183348> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>--- >>>>- >>>>-- >>>>* Links* >>>> >>>> * >>>> vedic astrology/ >>>> * >>>> vedic astrology >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>><vedic astrology?subject=Unsubscrib >>>e >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> * Terms of >>>> Service <>. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>------------------------ Sponsor --------------------~--> >>Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. 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Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Dear Sarbani, Hare Rama Krsna! >If the sperm and the egg fertilize to form the zygote then it travels up >and plants itself on the uterus to develop the foetus. If not then the >uterus wall sheds every cycle to menstruate through the vagina.(This >coincides with the lunar cycle of 27+ days; in the US among a certain >section, it is fashionable to refer to this phase as 'Moon'). Just one comment on this one. Fertilisation happens usually in the fallopian tubes, which connect the uterus with the ovaries. Then from there the fertilised egg travels to the uterus. I have heard from several women that when becoming pregnant, the menstruation cycle can eventually go on for 1 or 2 months still. This is known from experience. I wonder how that would be seen astrologically, e.g. from adhana chakra? Yours, Dhira Krsna dasa, Jyotishi http://www.radhadesh.com http://www.geocities.com/dvdd1008/Jyotisha.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Dear Sarbani, Yes. Lets us see what is Sanjay's opinion. Chandrashekhar. Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >Dear Chandrashekharji, > >I am as confused...I just hope Sanjayji quickly replies to us and shares his >thoughts...I know he is busy with his papers for the coming trips...but, >still... > >Best regards, > >Sarbani > > >Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:21 AM >Sarbani Sarkar >Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya > >Dear Sarbani, >If the Kalapurusha is without phallus, would he not be missing an >important sexual organ? About the rest, I was certain that you are aware >of functions of organs. I was just pointing out that if one was not a >reproductive organ since conception could not occur within it, then so >was also the case with other. >Regards, >Chandrashekhar. > >Sarbani Sarkar wrote: > > > >>Dear Chandrashekharji, >> >>As I wrote in a another mail to you under a different thread; from what I >>remember: testicles, vagina and the anus are Scorpio. So where is the >>Kalpurusha without sexual organs? But I do not agree with you at all about >>the phallus. It is different. I know conception does not happen in the >>vagina ...I think all women know that Chandrashekhraji ...but I did not >>wish to waste time describing the process in detail here, as I am sure most >>people are already aware of it...BUT definitely the functions and purpose >> >> >of > > >>the vagina and the phallus are different, simply on the basis that the >>reproductive functions of the male and the female are different >>vastly...both in quality and the quantity. It is but natural...but lets >>leave it at this... >> >>Sarbani >> >> >>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>Saturday, June 19, 2004 12:35 AM >>Sarbani Sarkar >>Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >>Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >> >>Dear Sarbani,stly >> >>I am glad you see the basic structure to be right. Now if you look at the >>graphics carefully, you will notice that both the organs serve as a passage >>and delivery system. Both have different openings/addendums within them for >>discharge of excretory fluids though at may be at different places and for >>different fluids. The shapes are definitely different and therefore >>apparently there may appear to be difference between them, but they are not >>exclusive to each other in function but rather complimentary. However both >>are only delivery system for reproduction to happen at a different place. >> >>That conception does not happen within the Vagina, needs to be understood. >>As the Penile structure is a delivery mechanism for semen Vagina is a >>receptacle for the semen. It however does not receive the ovum. The meeting >>of the two occurs after the spermatozoa pass the oss uteri and reproduction >>occurs in uterus. Whether the ovum gets fertilised by the sperm or not >>decides whether it is going to be attached to the wall of uterus or >>otherwise. >> >>Other processes described by you are right. However now let us turn back to >>the original topic. As you have seen Vagina proper, and not vulva, being >>hidden from sight and incapable of being sighted with out using a vaginal >>speculum, how would it become capable of being called Guhya ( that which >>should not be revealed)? Guhya is something that can be easily perceived by >>others if not guarded/covered specifically. That is the connotation of >> >> >Guhya > > >>when we talk about a Guhya Mantra too. >> >>Now if we accept the argument on a hypothetical basis and exclude phallus >>and testicles as being related to Scorpio, would the Kalapurusha be without >>Sexual organs? Libra being Basti, Scorpio being Anus and Sagittarius being >>Uru, the Kalapurusha would have to be with out sexual organs, is it not? I >>am certain with more contemplation you will understand the contradiction if >>we accept the premise of Scorpio not being Sexual organs of Kalapurusha. >>Regards, >>Chandrashekhar. >> >>Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>Dear Chandrashekharji, >>> >>>Yes you are right that the urethra and clitoris are separate and the >>>urethra is used for urination. The urethra is placed about the vaginal >>>orifice and the clitoris is situated above the urethra. So the female >>>has three orifices, if we include the anus: vagina, urethra and anus, >>>whereas the male has only two: phallus and anus. BUT I definitely stand >>>by the fact that the vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive >>>functions. The vaginal passage leads up to the cervix towards the mouth >>>of the uterus, which is further connected to the two ovaries through >>>the fallopian tubes. The vaginal opening is used for mating/copulation >>>and is the opening where the seminal fluid is deposited. If the sperm >>>and the egg fertilize to form the zygote then it travels up and plants >>>itself on the uterus to develop the foetus. If not then the uterus wall >>>sheds every cycle to menstruate through the vagina.(This coincides with >>>the lunar cycle of 27+ days; in the US among a certain section, it is >>>fashionable to refer to this phase as 'Moon'). When the baby is ready to >>> >>> >be > > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>delivered then it too comes out through the vagina. >> >> >> >> >>>So the vaginal opening is exclusively for reproductive purposes. The >>>urinary opening is SEPARATE in the female body and situated above the >>>vaginal opening. This is the main point I wished to make. In the male, >>>the phallus is used both for urination and for mating/copulation and >>>for ejecting the seminal fluid into the vagina. This is the PRIMARY and >>>BIG difference between a male and female anatomy. No I was not talking >>>about the vulva and the labia, which together enfolds the entire female >>>genitalia. In the female we are talking of a urinary opening, an >>>excretory opening and a reproductive opening. In the male we are >>>talking about an excretory opening and urinary-cum-reproductive >>>opening. This is the crucial difference we should keep in mind whilst >>>we sort out the libra/scorpio issue...eventually >>> >>>Best regards, >>> >>>Sarbani >>> >>> >>>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>>Friday, June 18, 2004 2:31 AM >>>sarbani >>>Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >>>Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >>> >>>Dear Sarbani, >>> >>>You are right, We should wait for Sanjay's comments. In the meanwhile, >>>since you have no problems discussing human anatomy, let me clarify the >>>difference between various organs in order to remove confusion about their >>> >>> >>> >>> >>function. >> >> >> >> >>>Here is what Cambridge dictionary says about Clitoris. >>>"clitoris [show phonetics] <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=14250&ph=on> >>>noun [C] >>>a sexual organ above the vagina which can give a woman sexual pleasure >>>when it is touched" and what it says about Urethra."urethra [show >>>phonetics] <define.asp?dict=CALD&key=87461&ph=on> >>>noun [C] plural urethras or SPECIALIZED urethrae the tube in most >>>mammals which carries urine from the bladder out of the body. In males >>>it also carries sperm. >>>" >>>I am attaching two diagrams showing Male and female reproductive systems. >>>They will clarify that clitoris is not an excretory organ and Urethra >>>and clitoris are different organs, both located in Vagina. Study them >>>and then we can revert back to the discussion. You will also find >>>similarity in the urethra and seminal fluid carrying in male and female >>>reproductory systems, and the route though apparently different follows >>> >>> >>> >>> >>similar delivery systems. >> >> >> >> >>>This would also clarify any confusion about Vagina being exclusively >>>reserved for reproductive purposes as there are three sections of it >>>each with different functions. >>>I trust this would remove any confusion about clitoris being the organ >>>of delivery of excreta. >>>Regards, >>>Chandrashekhar. >>> >>>Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Dear Chandrashekharji, >>>> >>>>I agree with you as its highly likely that I have not understood this >>>>properly. I was not attentive I must confess; I happen to listen in to >>>>a lot of things - though not at all carefully - when Sanjayji was >>>>teaching Visti, Freedom and Eric. This was not part of the regular >>>>class, but the snatch of a conversation that I overhead. So it's best >>>>if >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Sanjayji clarifies. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>But let me comment upon a couple of things. The vagina is an organ >>>>equivalent to the phallus but EXCLUSIVELY for reproductive purposes. >>>>It is used for mating in order that the seminal fluid may be deposited >>>>there, which may be then carried to the uterus via the cervix for >>>>conception. It is used for menstruation. It is NOT used for urinary >>>>excretion, which is through the clitoris, the urethra being the >>>>internal channel and the clitoris the outer organ through which the >>>>urine is ejected. The phallus on the other hand is for BOTH >>>>reproductive and urinary. This is the difference between a male and a >>>>female. This is probably because the female has very exclusive >>>>reproductive functions: the vagina is the medium through which the >>>>child is >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>delivered to the world and through which menstruation takes place. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>So its unimaginable that it should be also used for urinary purposes. >>>>The male on the other hand have no reproductive functions except for >>>>depositing the seminal fluid. So the phallus doubles as urinary and >>>>the channel through which the seminal fluid is ejected. >>>> >>>>I still think the division is between visible and hidden and not >>>>between reproductive and excretory...but I think it may be wise to >>>>wait for Sanjayji to download his mails and clarify this to us. I hope >>>>you do not mind my discussing physical anatomy but we are all educated >>>>adults and I have no problems in discussing these things openly >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>academically. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Best regards, >>>> >>>>Sarbani >>>> >>>>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>>>Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:41 AM >>>>Sarbani Sarkar >>>>Cc: 'Vedic Astrology Group' >>>>Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >>>> >>>>Dear Sarbani, >>>>There appears to be some confusion here. It would be better if Sanjay >>>>comments on this. I am certain he was trying to explain something else. >>>>The reason I say this is, there is contradiction in the categorisation >>>>of organs and also understanding of Human anatomy in the explanation. >>>>I had not wanted to discuss human anatomy on the list and had >>>>indicated this in my message to Visti. However you have done so now, I >>>>think it is better we set the record straight. >>>>If Libra indicates excretory organ and therefore Phallus is ruled by >>>>it, why anus the other excretory organ be ruled by Scorpio and not Libra. >>>>The Mollier dictionary translates Guhya as pudenda( mfn. (Pa1n2. 3-1 , >>>>109 Ka1s3. g. %{daNDA7di}) to be covered or concealed or hidden or >>>>kept secret , concealable , private , secret , mysterious , mystical RV. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>AV. >> >> >> >> >>>>&c.* the pudenda *Sus3r. VarBr2S. Katha1s. ii , 56 (cf. 1. %{gR4hya}) >>>>the anus W.) amongst other meanings and it means per English dictionary: >>>>*Definitions* >>>>*pudenda* >>>>/plural noun/ >>>> >>>> /pudendum/ >>>> 1. The external sexual organs, especially those of a woman. >>>> >>>>*/Etymology/*: 17c: Latin, literally ‘things to be ashamed of', >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>from /pudere/ to be ashamed. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>There also appears to be some confusion about Anatomy and reproduction >>>>here. Clitoris is not urinary excretory organ but Urethra definitely is. >>>>The former is female equivalent of a Male Phallus. The dictionary >>>>meaning of the former is: >>>>*Definitions* >>>>*clitoris* >>>>/noun/ >>>> >>>> /clitorises/ >>>> 1. /_anatomy._/ >>>> In female mammals: a small highly sensitive organ located in >>>> front of the opening of the vagina, which like the penis in >>>> males, becomes erect when sexually stimulated. >>>> >>>>*/Derivative/*: clitoral >>>>/adj/ >>>>*/Etymology/*: 17c: from Greek /kleitoris/. >>>> >>>> >>>>Again if one calls testicles as reproductive organ but excludes >>>>Phallus >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>from that category then Vagina should also be excluded as reproductive >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>organ and Ovary substituted for it. I think the confusion is about >>>>external reproductive organs and internal reproductive organs, which >>>>together constitute the entire reproductive system. I think what >>>>Sanjay was trying to convey was that the internal reproductive and >>>>excretory organs are governed by Libra and the External ones by >>>>Scorpio. That is an absolutely correct statement. Basti is the region >>>>of internal reproductive and excretory organs and External >>>>Reproductive and Excretory organs ( also known as Sexual organs) are the >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>Guhyas. >> >> >> >> >>>>.. >>>>Regards, >>>>Chandrashekhar. >>>>Sarbani Sarkar wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Dear Narasimha, >>>>> >>>>>I do not wish to butt into a discussion among gurus but if I >>>>>recollect correctly, what Sanjayji was trying to tell us at that >>>>>point is that Libra represents the visible organs of the pelvic >>>>>region. This includes the clitoris (excretory (urinary) organ) and >>>>>the phallus (excretory (urinary) and reproductive organ). Scorpio >>>>>represents the organs which are not visible, rather they are >>>>>hidden…or that they ought to be hidden. These include the anus >>>>>(excretory organ), vagina (reproductive organ) and the testicles >>>>>(reproductive organs). The phallus is primarily excretory, sometimes >>>>>used for discharging seminal fluid; the testicles are on the other hand >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>purely reproductive organs. >> >> >> >> >>>>>So the classification is more on the lines of >>>>>visibility/hiding/enshrouding. Scorpio hides both reproductive and >>>>>excretory organs. This is as far as I understood. >>>>> >>>>>Best regards, >>>>> >>>>>Sarbani >>>>> >>>>>--- >>>>>- >>>>>-- >>>>> >>>>>** Narasimha P.V.R. Rao [pvr] >>>>>*Sent:* Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:35 AM >>>>>*To:* Vedic Astrology Group >>>>>*Subject:* [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya >>>>> >>>>>Namaste Visti, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Dear Chandrashekhar and Narasimha, Namaskar The highlighted portion >>>>>>about people's minds was not meant for you, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>but all >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>the other translators of the word Guhya in the classical books. I'm >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>sorry if >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>you took this phrase wrongly upon you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Well, thanks for the clarification. But I am even more offended now. >>>>> >>>>>It is well within your right to believe in what you *think* your guru >>>>>taught you. But, you have no business speculating about the mindsets >>>>>of people who translate otherwise. Scholars translated Guhya the way >>>>>they did because it is the only correct way and because other >>>>>classics used far less ambiguous words to make things clearer. They >>>>>did so for valid and intelligent reasons. It is certainly not because >>>>>their "mind is on sex" as your slur says. Your phrase is offensive >>>>>even if it was not meant for Chandrashekhar ji and me. >>>>> >>>>>For example, the great Dr. B. Suryanarain Row (grandfather of Dr. >>>>>Raman) associated the term "sexual organs" with Scorpio in his >>>>>translations of Brihajjatakam and Sarvartha Chintamani. In fact, this >>>>>is the standard view of most scholars. If you disagree with them, do >>>>>so respectfully. There is no need for arrogant slurs. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Now keep in mind that I did not come up with this idea - This is the >>>>>>explanation given to me by Guruji, here goes; Guhya means hidden and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>refers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>to those parts of the body which one cannot see - not those one >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>should hide. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>If you stand up straight and look at the mirror the genitals will be >>>>>>perfectly visible, however the anus will not and is hidden by the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>buttocks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>This is what is meant by hidden. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>In Sanskrit, the suffixes -ya and -ta are different. Looks like >>>>>you do not understand the difference between them. For example, pooj >>>>>means "to pray to". Poojita means "prayed to". OTOH, "poojya" means >>>>>"prayable" or "one who is worthy of being prayed to". Similarly, >>>>>laksh means "to view". Lakshita means "viewed". Lakshya means "one >>>>>that is worthy of being viewed". That is why lakshya means target. >>>>>Sish means "to refine, discipline and culture". Sishta means a >>>>>cultured person (i.e. one who has been refined and cultured). OTOH, >>>>>sishya means one who needs to be refined and cultured. That is why >>>>>sishya means a student. Similarly, gupta means hidden (e.g. gupta >>>>>dhana=hidden treasure). But guhya means one that needs to be hidden. >>>>>In mantras, secretive mantras that need to be hidden are said to be >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>"guhyam". >> >> >> >> >>>>>Anyone who knows Sanskrit well will know that gupta means hidden and >>>>>guhya means "one that needs to be hidden". >>>>> >>>>>So guhyas are not parts that you cannot see in the mirror or >>>>>something like that. They are parts that need to be hidden. Basically >>>>>they are the secretive parts of the body (that is why Jataka >>>>>Parijatam uses the term "rahasya desa" (secret area) instead of Guhya). >>>>> >>>>>Even if you disagree, please see my earlier quotes from other >>>>>classics which are far less ambiguous. Other scholars such as >>>>>Varahamihira, Kalyana Verma and Mantreswara used clearer words in the >>>>>place of Guhya. If one looks at all the classics, all doubts should be >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>cleared. >> >> >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Libra is the natural 7th house and deals >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>with mating, and this being for the sake of producing children. >>>>>> >>>>>>Now I never said that Päräçara said this, I said my Guruji said this. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Take >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>it or leave it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Visti, had you said just that, it would've been a perfectly >>>>>acceptable stand. But there is a huge difference between following >>>>>one's guru and >>>>>*insulting* other great scholars. You have made great contributions >>>>>to this list, including the recent postings on celibacy. But slurs on >>>>>scholars such as this "mind on sex" thing are unbecoming of you. >>>>>Please control yourself in future. You have been such a great >>>>>contributor and I do not want to punish you. I do not even want to >>>>>have to warn you again. Please co-operate.. >>>>> >>>>>Also, kindly make sure that you are not misrepresenting your guru >>>>>here. I say it especially because all the classics are in agreement >>>>>on Scorpio and you are contradicting all of them in the name of your >>>>>guru (who is my guru too)! >>>>> >>>>>Libra does represent the pelival region that includes some body parts >>>>>that are important for sexual activity, but the classics are clear in >>>>>saying that genitals themselves are represented by Scorpio and not >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>Libra.. >> >> >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>As for celibacy, I have AGAIN quoted my Guruji. The rest is up to you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>I have no complaints with you in that matter! :-) >>>>> >>>>>Role of Mars in celibabcy (or lack of it) is quite complicated and >>>>>dualistic. >>>>> >>>>>For example, Parasara and Jaimini both taught that Venus and Mars in >>>>>2nd from swamsa make one very licentious in sexual matters. This is >>>>>the opposite of celibabcy! At the same time, Mars rules over >>>>>Brahmacharyashrama.. He has a dual role to play and various scholars, >>>>>including you, have pointed out various factors very nicely. It was a >>>>>nice discussion. Keep it up! >>>>> >>>>>May Jupiter's light shine on us, >>>>> >>>>>Narasimha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Monier Williams gives the following for Basti (vasti); lower belly , >>>>>>abdomen VarBr2S. Ka1s3i1Kh. the pelvis MW. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Visti Larsen >>>>>>visti@s <visti@s>... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Chandrashekhar [boxdel] >>>>>>14 June 2004 23:05 >>>>>>Visti @ Denmark >>>>>>Cc: vedic astrology >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>><vedic astrology> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mars.... is he really karaka for >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>celebecy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>? To Sjt.Visti Larsen >>>>>> >>>>>>Dear Visti, >>>>>>You wrote" As for sexual organs, Scorpio represents the private >>>>>> >>>>>> >parts... > > >>>>>>this is not >>>>>>the sexual organs but the anus, which is hidden and hence private -* >>>>>>when ones mind is on sex then even private parts become sexual >>>>>>organs!* Now I quote Guruji and again state; the 8th house indicates >>>>>>the Anus >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>(it is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>private because it is hidden) whilst the 7th house shows the >>>>>>reproductive organs." >>>>>>Your statement which I have made in bold types is utterly uncalled >>>>>>for and crosses the boundaries of decency.Desist from such comments >>>>>>in future.They are not in good taste. >>>>>>As to what is 8th house, I wish some body takes pains to read BPHS >>>>>>Chapter 4 and Shloka3 and 4 before attributing something to >>>>>>Parashara.I would like to know what is your English translation of >>>>>>Sanskrit word Basti and Guhya that are said to be the body parts of >>>>>>Kalapurusha represented by Tula and Vrishchika rasi by the Venerated >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>Sage. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>Perhaps I am not as good at English as others, but I do not think >>>>>>that Private parts does not refer to sexual organs.Perhaps some >>>>>>gentleman having good command over English language would like to >>>>>>comment. As for Deha-vivar, the hole you are reffering to, do I >>>>>>really need to teach anatomy on the list? Please check up the >>>>>>meaning of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>Navadwara. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>Chandrashekhar. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Archives: http://www...comvedic astrology >>>>><vedic astrology> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>....... May Jupiter's light shine on us ........ >>>>> >>>>>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>|| Om Tat Sat || Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu || >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>* Sponsor* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>><http://us.ard./SIG=129he2tcb/M=298184.5022502.6152625.300117 >>>>6 >>>>/D=gr >>>>oups/S=1705082686:HM/EXP=1087483022/A=2164339/R=0/SIG=11e2d64in/*http: >>>>//www >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>.. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183348> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>--- >>>>>- >>>>>-- >>>>>* Links* >>>>> >>>>> * >>>>> vedic astrology/ >>>>> * >>>>> vedic astrology >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>><vedic astrology?subject=Unsubscrib >>>>e >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> * Terms of >>>>> Service <>. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>------------------------ Sponsor --------------------~--> >>>Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. 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Guest guest Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 - Gauranga Das Narasimha P.V.R. Rao Friday, June 18, 2004 4:13 AM Re: [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya JAYA JAGANNATHA! Dear members, Namaste. Based on my readings from the classics and meager understanding of Sanskrit leanguage. I would back Narasimha in all three points: Guhyma means private parts (i.e. ganitals), 8th house and Scoprio signifies the genitals, and Mars plays both roles: i.e. induces esxual activity in males (and females alike - hence the importance of Kuja dosha) and helps to coltrol it, depending on his position. Practicing brahmacarya (controlling sexual urges) and tyaga (renunciation of sexual desires) are two different things. Brahmacarya is compulsory for all Vedic students who are members of the higher varnas and study under a Guru, until they complete their studies and get married. This is ruled by Mars. However tyaga or sannyasa means giving up altogether or being freed from sexula desires or all material desires. The karakas for this are Ketu and Saturn. If the combine with Venus in the Navamsa, then tapasvi yoga is complete. Yours, Gauranga Das Vedic Astrologer gauranga (AT) brihaspati (DOT) net Jyotish Remedies: WWW.BRIHASPATI.NET Phone: +36-309-140-839 - Narasimha P.V.R. Rao Vedic Astrology Group Wednesday, June 16, 2004 6:05 AM [vedic astrology] More on Scorpio and Guhya Namaste Visti, > Dear Chandrashekhar and Narasimha, Namaskar> The highlighted portion about people's minds was not meant for you, but all> the other translators of the word Guhya in the classical books. I'm sorry if> you took this phrase wrongly upon you. Well, thanks for the clarification. But I am even more offended now. It is well within your right to believe in what you *think* your guru taught you. But, you have no business speculating about the mindsets of people who translate otherwise. Scholars translated Guhya the way they did because it is the only correct way and because other classics used far less ambiguous words to make things clearer. They did so for valid and intelligent reasons. It is certainly not because their "mind is on sex" as your slur says. Your phrase is offensive even if it was not meant for Chandrashekhar ji and me. For example, the great Dr. B. Suryanarain Row (grandfather of Dr. Raman) associated the term "sexual organs" with Scorpio in his translations of Brihajjatakam and Sarvartha Chintamani. In fact, this is the standard view of most scholars. If you disagree with them, do so respectfully. There is no need for arrogant slurs. > Now keep in mind that I did not come up with this idea - This is the> explanation given to me by Guruji, here goes; Guhya means hidden and refers> to those parts of the body which one cannot see - not those one should hide.> If you stand up straight and look at the mirror the genitals will be> perfectly visible, however the anus will not and is hidden by the buttocks.> This is what is meant by hidden. In Sanskrit, the suffixes -ya and -ta are different. Looks like you do not understand the difference between them. For example, pooj means "to pray to". Poojita means "prayed to". OTOH, "poojya" means "prayable" or "one who is worthy of being prayed to". Similarly, laksh means "to view". Lakshita means "viewed". Lakshya means "one that is worthy of being viewed". That is why lakshya means target. Sish means "to refine, discipline and culture". Sishta means a cultured person (i.e. one who has been refined and cultured). OTOH, sishya means one who needs to be refined and cultured. That is why sishya means a student. Similarly, gupta means hidden (e.g. gupta dhana=hidden treasure). But guhya means one that needs to be hidden. In mantras, secretive mantras that need to be hidden are said to be "guhyam". Anyone who knows Sanskrit well will know that gupta means hidden and guhya means "one that needs to be hidden". So guhyas are not parts that you cannot see in the mirror or something like that. They are parts that need to be hidden. Basically they are the secretive parts of the body (that is why Jataka Parijatam uses the term "rahasya desa" (secret area) instead of Guhya). Even if you disagree, please see my earlier quotes from other classics which are far less ambiguous. Other scholars such as Varahamihira, Kalyana Verma and Mantreswara used clearer words in the place of Guhya. If one looks at all the classics, all doubts should be cleared. > Libra is the natural 7th house and deals > with mating, and this being for the sake of producing children.> > Now I never said that Päräçara said this, I said my Guruji said this. Take> it or leave it. Visti, had you said just that, it would've been a perfectly acceptable stand. But there is a huge difference between following one's guru and *insulting* other great scholars. You have made great contributions to this list, including the recent postings on celibacy. But slurs on scholars such as this "mind on sex" thing are unbecoming of you. Please control yourself in future. You have been such a great contributor and I do not want to punish you. I do not even want to have to warn you again. Please co-operate. Also, kindly make sure that you are not misrepresenting your guru here. I say it especially because all the classics are in agreement on Scorpio and you are contradicting all of them in the name of your guru (who is my guru too)! Libra does represent the pelival region that includes some body parts that are important for sexual activity, but the classics are clear in saying that genitals themselves are represented by Scorpio and not Libra. > As for celibacy, I have AGAIN quoted my Guruji. The rest is up to you. I have no complaints with you in that matter! :-) Role of Mars in celibabcy (or lack of it) is quite complicated and dualistic. For example, Parasara and Jaimini both taught that Venus and Mars in 2nd from swamsa make one very licentious in sexual matters. This is the opposite of celibabcy! At the same time, Mars rules over Brahmacharyashrama. He has a dual role to play and various scholars, including you, have pointed out various factors very nicely. It was a nice discussion. Keep it up! May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha > Monier Williams gives the following for Basti (vasti);> lower belly , abdomen VarBr2S. Ka1s3i1Kh. the pelvis MW. > > Visti Larsen> visti@s... > > > Chandrashekhar [boxdel] > 14 June 2004 23:05> Visti @ Denmark> Cc: vedic astrology> Re: [vedic astrology] Re: Mars.... is he really karaka for celebecy> ? To Sjt.Visti Larsen> > Dear Visti,> You wrote" As for sexual organs, Scorpio represents the private parts... > this is not> the sexual organs but the anus, which is hidden and hence private -* when> ones mind is on sex then even private parts become sexual organs!*> Now I quote Guruji and again state; the 8th house indicates the Anus (it is> private because it is hidden) whilst the 7th house shows the reproductive> organs."> Your statement which I have made in bold types is utterly uncalled for > and crosses the boundaries of decency.Desist from such comments in > future.They are not in good taste.> As to what is 8th house, I wish some body takes pains to read BPHS > Chapter 4 and Shloka3 and 4 before attributing something to Parashara.I > would like to know what is your English translation of Sanskrit word > Basti and Guhya that are said to be the body parts of Kalapurusha > represented by Tula and Vrishchika rasi by the Venerated Sage.> Perhaps I am not as good at English as others, but I do not think that > Private parts does not refer to sexual organs.Perhaps some gentleman > having good command over English language would like to comment. As for > Deha-vivar, the hole you are reffering to, do I really need to teach > anatomy on the list? Please check up the meaning of Navadwara.> Regards,> Chandrashekhar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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