mukund-Destiny and Freewill

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna

 

Dear Mukund,

 

There are two components to any action, including the chanting of hymns or doing

other remedies.One is the karma that we bring onto this world from many births

and the actions that we do subsequent to birth and the second is free

-will.Both play a role.

 

The basic fact is even to chant manthras and get results you have to have

destiny or prarabhdha on your side.Thats the reason why some of us even after a

lot of chanting of manthras, there are either no effects or only a partial

effect and specific problems remain.In some cases there is absolutely no chance

of even a remedy.This fact is also very clear astrologically.Only the upachayas

or 3,6,10,11 houses are allocated to free-will. The extent of free-will is

again dependent on the malefic or benefic influences of grahas on these houses.

In other words your karma from the previous birth also determines the degrees of

freedom that you possess to alter your destiny. The greater you remain in the

modes or gunas of passion and ignorance, the lower the chance that you have a

say in the way life goes. The higher you remain in satva or pure goodness, the

higher the chance of your exercising free-will.The Lord explains the effects of

the three gunas(satva,rajas, tamas) in great detail in the Bagavad Gita and says

that unless we surrender to Him, we will be under the influence of these

Gunas.So the choice is between Sri Krishna's lotus Feet and being a puppet in

tha hands of these Gunas.

 

In conclusion, as much as we are destined to suffer because of destiny, there is

also a free-will component that allows us to take shelter of God.

 

BTW, have you ever lived in a monastery or a strict Ashram as Ivar did? LIfe

there is far tougher than you imagine and they dont just sit around and chant.

They are up at 3. AM and the day ends at 10.00 PM.Every minute is busy .They

lead a very austere life to help useless souls like us to gain some spiritual

knowledge. I am very intimate with the life in these places and forever

grateful to these devotees for making such places of worship available to me

when i get a chance to remember God. Iam a peson just like yourself who makes a

living on the East Coast(you are on the west coast i presume) but all Iam doing

is making money to gratify my senses and take care of my family, there is very

little done by me for the sake of God's precious children. So in reality its us

who lead a very selfish life.

 

Lets be grateful to the Ivar's of the world who make sacrifices, so that we can

move closer to God. I am saying this because I know what their life is and how

it is led.

 

Hare Krishna

 

Sudharsan

Please Chant ---- HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE HARE RAMA

HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE and Be happy

 

Please Visit

http://www.foodrelief.org

http://www.indiadivine.org/

[Guest guest]

Hello Sudharshan:

 

Thanks for writing this note, I read it sincerely and seriously.

 

Now, here is an extract of your note:

 

"This fact is also very clear astrologically.Only the upachayas or

3,6,10,11 houses are allocated to free-will. The extent of free-will

is again dependent on the malefic or benefic influences of grahas on

these houses."

 

Here you are saying EXACTLY what I've been saying for two days now.

I've been saying that one cannot change destiny (placement of planets

in one's horoscope) by free will as "free will" once again is

dictated by the Strong Karmic Forces that make us do good and bad.

 

There is nothing like "free will." If you look at horoscopes of

people who've left their native place and settled in a foreign place,

they have Venus in 9th in a movable sign or Rahu in 12th or Shani in

7th or some combination like that. And, due to the Karmic force

generated by the palnetary placement, these individuals were inclined

to behave in a way that made them leave their birth place.

 

Let me give you an example--some time back Narsimha did a "blind"

prediction on an "interesting" horoscope posted on this board.

Narsimha noted all sorts of horrible combinations in this horoscope

and predicted that the horoscope was that of a murderer or a sexaul

deviant and this person has suffered punishment and/or violent death.

Now, it was later disclosed that the horoscope was that of the rapist

and murderer Jeffery Dahmer who was himself violently murdered in

prison.

 

Now, Narsimha and other Gurus on this board were able to predict

gloom and doom about a "blind" horoscope which is great, but doens't

this fit my opinion that Karmic forces are generated by the planetary

placements in one's horoscope and these forces control one's action

and therefore there is NO free-will. Jeffery Dahmer's planetary

placements pre-destined him to behave a certain way, he behaved

EXACTLY as the planets predicted so where did he even have the option

of free-will.

 

We behave as the planets make us behave, good and bad things happen

in one's life due to destiny (planetary placements) and not because

of a person's actions and in-actions.

 

Let me give you my own example--I've been divorced three times and

the last two times I was a victim of the most horrible kind of fraud

and deceit. Now, in my life, I've never hurt, raped, defruaded,

cheated, robbed or even eve-teased any young woman. Why did I suffer,

Why was I deceived? Why was I a victim of immigration and financial

fraud? -- The answer lies in my destiny (my planetary placements

destined me to suffer at the hands of my spouse/spouses). What part

did free-will play in my divorce situations--all along I was trying

to be the best husband in the world (using my free-will) and yet bad

things happened to me.

 

Look Sudarshan, Venkat, Ivar and others--there is no free-will. We're

all pre-destined to live our lives and behave one way or the other or

suffer or enjoy. All we can do is what Lord Krishna asked us to which

is RIGHTEOUS KARMA.

 

Mukund

 

vedic astrology, Sudharsan Srinivasan

<sudhar108> wrote:

> Hare Rama Krishna

>

> Dear Mukund,

>

> There are two components to any action, including the chanting of

hymns or doing other remedies.One is the karma that we bring onto

this world from many births and the actions that we do subsequent to

birth and the second is free -will.Both play a role.

>

> The basic fact is even to chant manthras and get results you have

to have destiny or prarabhdha on your side.Thats the reason why some

of us even after a lot of chanting of manthras, there are either no

effects or only a partial effect and specific problems remain.In some

cases there is absolutely no chance of even a remedy.This fact is

also very clear astrologically.Only the upachayas or 3,6,10,11 houses

are allocated to free-will. The extent of free-will is again

dependent on the malefic or benefic influences of grahas on these

houses.

>

> In other words your karma from the previous birth also determines

the degrees of freedom that you possess to alter your destiny. The

greater you remain in the modes or gunas of passion and ignorance,

the lower the chance that you have a say in the way life goes. The

higher you remain in satva or pure goodness, the higher the chance of

your exercising free-will.The Lord explains the effects of the three

gunas(satva,rajas, tamas) in great detail in the Bagavad Gita and

says that unless we surrender to Him, we will be under the influence

of these Gunas.So the choice is between Sri Krishna's lotus Feet and

being a puppet in tha hands of these Gunas.

>

> In conclusion, as much as we are destined to suffer because of

destiny, there is also a free-will component that allows us to take

shelter of God.

>

> BTW, have you ever lived in a monastery or a strict Ashram as Ivar

did? LIfe there is far tougher than you imagine and they dont just

sit around and chant. They are up at 3. AM and the day ends at 10.00

PM.Every minute is busy .They lead a very austere life to help

useless souls like us to gain some spiritual knowledge. I am very

intimate with the life in these places and forever grateful to these

devotees for making such places of worship available to me when i get

a chance to remember God. Iam a peson just like yourself who makes a

living on the East Coast(you are on the west coast i presume) but all

Iam doing is making money to gratify my senses and take care of my

family, there is very little done by me for the sake of God's

precious children. So in reality its us who lead a very selfish life.

>

> Lets be grateful to the Ivar's of the world who make sacrifices, so

that we can move closer to God. I am saying this because I know what

their life is and how it is led.

>

> Hare Krishna

>

> Sudharsan

>

>

>

>

>

> Please Chant ----

>

> HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA

> KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE

> HARE RAMA HARE RAMA

> RAMA RAMA HARE HARE

>

> and Be happy

>

> Please Visit

> http://www.foodrelief.org

> http://www.indiadivine.org/

[Guest guest]

Dear Mukund,

 

 

I disagree because if there was no free will, why would the Lord preach the

Bagavad Gita? He could have just imposed it on us. He has given us these

wonderful teachings and also blessed us with free-will to either pick it up or

not. I agree that many times there are events in life that happen without any

apparent initiation by us but thats the extent of your free-will and karma.

 

Anyways I would end my comments after this one. I hope this helps you

understand my position better.Srila Prabhupada used to give the example of a

Cow being tethered to a pole with a rope. The cow is at liberty to move within

the perimeter of the rope but not beyond. The cow can be compared to us.The rope

represents the extent of freewill and the fact that you cannot move beyond the

perimeter of the rope represents the karmic limits of our free will.Some of us

are born with long ropes and some of us have very short ones.

 

There are many instances that we have control over. For example, you used to

write to the group with a rather cavalier attitude due to mental agony, but

when PVR requested that you be more sensitive, you did display sensitivity.So

that was a case of exercising free-will. You did not allow your emotional state

to dictate the tone of your posts, because you paused, reflected on your actions

and decided to change. This can only happen when Satva guna predominates.

 

But in the same case if you had a few drinks, then there is less free will, the

guna or mode of Tamas will now rule and the native has little control.You would

not be able to reflect, think and then take a deliberate action.Drunk driving

accidents come to mind.

 

Another example is when, a person commits an act of passion, which they later

regret. They have no control over their senses while being involved in the

act.So thats action under the influence of Rajas or mode of passion.

 

The bottomline is that we as human beings have been blessed with free-will

(which can also be seen in the chart) but only if we strive to remain in the

mode of goodness or sattva guna.So there is an urgent need to change our

lifestyle to elevate our conciousness to the mode of sattva or goodness.

I end my comments to this thread with this post.

 

Hare Krishna

 

Sudharsan

monmuk111 <monmuk111 > wrote:

Hello Sudharshan:Thanks for writing this note, I read it sincerely and

seriously. Now, here is an extract of your note:"This fact is also very clear

astrologically.Only the upachayas or 3,6,10,11 houses are allocated to

free-will. The extent of free-will is again dependent on the malefic or benefic

influences of grahas on these houses."Here you are saying EXACTLY what I've been

saying for two days now. I've been saying that one cannot change destiny

(placement of planets in one's horoscope) by free will as "free will" once

again is dictated by the Strong Karmic Forces that make us do good and bad.

There is nothing like "free will." If you look at horoscopes of people who've

left their native place and settled in a foreign place, they have Venus in 9th

in a movable sign or Rahu in 12th or Shani in 7th or

some combination like that. And, due to the Karmic force generated by the

palnetary placement, these individuals were inclined to behave in a way that

made them leave their birth place.Let me give you an example--some time back

Narsimha did a "blind" prediction on an "interesting" horoscope posted on this

board. Narsimha noted all sorts of horrible combinations in this horoscope and

predicted that the horoscope was that of a murderer or a sexaul deviant and

this person has suffered punishment and/or violent death. Now, it was later

disclosed that the horoscope was that of the rapist and murderer Jeffery Dahmer

who was himself violently murdered in prison.Now, Narsimha and other Gurus on

this board were able to predict gloom and doom about a "blind" horoscope which

is great, but doens't this fit my opinion that Karmic forces are generated by

the planetary placements in one's horoscope and these forces control one's

action and therefore there is NO free-will. Jeffery Dahmer's planetary

placements pre-destined him to behave a certain way, he behaved EXACTLY as the

planets predicted so where did he even have the option of free-will.We behave

as the planets make us behave, good and bad things happen in one's life due to

destiny (planetary placements) and not because of a person's actions and

in-actions.Let me give you my own example--I've been divorced three times and

the last two times I was a victim of the most horrible kind of fraud and

deceit. Now, in my life, I've never hurt, raped, defruaded, cheated, robbed or

even eve-teased any young woman. Why did I suffer, Why was I deceived? Why was

I a victim of immigration and financial fraud? -- The answer lies in my destiny

(my planetary placements destined me to suffer at the hands of my

spouse/spouses). What part did free-will play in my divorce situations--all

along I was trying

to be the best husband in the world (using my free-will) and yet bad things

happened to me.Look Sudarshan, Venkat, Ivar and others--there is no free-will.

We're all pre-destined to live our lives and behave one way or the other or

suffer or enjoy. All we can do is what Lord Krishna asked us to which is

RIGHTEOUS KARMA.Mukundvedic astrology, Sudharsan

Srinivasan <sudhar108> wrote:> Hare Rama Krishna> > Dear Mukund,> >

There are two components to any action, including the chanting of hymns or

doing other remedies.One is the karma that we bring onto this world from many

births and the actions that we do subsequent to birth and the second is free

-will.Both play a role.> > The basic fact is even to chant manthras and get

results you have to have destiny or prarabhdha on your side.Thats the reason

why some of us even

after a lot of chanting of manthras, there are either no effects or only a

partial effect and specific problems remain.In some cases there is absolutely

no chance of even a remedy.This fact is also very clear astrologically.Only the

upachayas or 3,6,10,11 houses are allocated to free-will. The extent of

free-will is again dependent on the malefic or benefic influences of grahas on

these houses.> > In other words your karma from the previous birth also

determines the degrees of freedom that you possess to alter your destiny. The

greater you remain in the modes or gunas of passion and ignorance, the lower

the chance that you have a say in the way life goes. The higher you remain in

satva or pure goodness, the higher the chance of your exercising free-will.The

Lord explains the effects of the three gunas(satva,rajas, tamas) in great

detail in the Bagavad Gita and says that unless we surrender to Him, we will be

under the

influence of these Gunas.So the choice is between Sri Krishna's lotus Feet and

being a puppet in tha hands of these Gunas.> > In conclusion, as much as we

are destined to suffer because of destiny, there is also a free-will component

that allows us to take shelter of God.> > BTW, have you ever lived in a

monastery or a strict Ashram as Ivar did? LIfe there is far tougher than you

imagine and they dont just sit around and chant. They are up at 3. AM and the

day ends at 10.00 PM.Every minute is busy .They lead a very austere life to

help useless souls like us to gain some spiritual knowledge. I am very intimate

with the life in these places and forever grateful to these devotees for making

such places of worship available to me when i get a chance to remember God. Iam

a peson just like yourself who makes a living on the East Coast(you are on the

west coast i presume) but all Iam doing is making

money to gratify my senses and take care of my family, there is very little done

by me for the sake of God's precious children. So in reality its us who lead a

very selfish life.> > Lets be grateful to the Ivar's of the world who make

sacrifices, so that we can move closer to God. I am saying this because I know

what their life is and how it is led.> > Hare Krishna> > Sudharsan > > > > >

> Please Chant ---- > > HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA > KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE >

HARE RAMA HARE RAMA > RAMA RAMA HARE HARE > > and Be happy> > Please Visit >

http://www.foodrelief.org> http://www.indiadivine.org/Archives:

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Please Chant ---- HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE HARE RAMA

HARE RAMA RAMA RAMA HARE HARE and Be happy

 

Please Visit

http://www.foodrelief.org

http://www.indiadivine.org/

[Guest guest]

> Look Sudarshan, Venkat, Ivar and others--there is no free-will. We're > all

pre-destined to live our lives and behave one way or the other or > suffer or

enjoy. All we can do is what Lord Krishna asked us to which > is RIGHTEOUS

KARMA.You could have stated "I believe there is no free will." Others believe

free-will and predestination exist side by side. There are different views,

just like there are different views as to what means righteous karma.

 

Ivar

[Guest guest]

> Look Sudarshan, Venkat, Ivar and others--there is no free-will.

We're

> all pre-destined to live our lives and behave one way or the other

or

> suffer or enjoy. All we can do is what Lord Krishna asked us to

which

> is RIGHTEOUS KARMA.

>

> Mukund

>

 

It isn't just binary, my friend, it's not that either you have

destiny or you have free will. You have both. How much of each

varies from person to person, and from time to time for the same

person.

 

My sincere sympathies on your problems. Believe me, I understand how

you can feel like a slave to destiny during problems such as those -

like most people, I had some very tough times too. When things are

going my way, and I think it's all my doing - free will. When I was

in traumatic times, it was always "why me?", i.e. blaming destiny.

 

Just my opinion, you are of course entitled to yours.

 

venkat