Guest guest Posted October 20, 2002 Report Share Posted October 20, 2002 Here are > just a couple: why was there a meeting between Bin Laden and a CIA agent in > Dubai in July 2001? The meeting was originally reported by a French > newspaper and later denied by the State Department. But what wasn't > reported in the US was that Le Figaro stood by their account after the US > official denial and said that the information came from French > intelligence. Given Bin Laden's past affiliation with the CIA, I think > this is a cloud that hangs over a possible CIA link to Al Qaeda. Ok, USA, let's have our top people confirm to the public what our intelligence people are doing, so that people who have a nosey need to know can get their noses on straight. I don't think so! I think the media runs with stories whether true or made up, and is well aware that they will not be assailed by these agencies for any erroneous remarks they make. The nature of intelligence agencies is that they do not disseminate information, they gather it. I'm off my soapbox now. Best to all, Carol Hook Annandale, Virginia USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2002 Report Share Posted October 20, 2002 Dear List, I don't know what has been posted in the past day or two as I have been having some ISP/email troubles. Chris ---------- > Christopher Kevill <christopher.kevill > gjlist > Re: [GJ] Another apology/Bush's war on Iraq > Saturday, October 19, 2002 12:56 PM > > Martin, > > Just so you know, I am no Democrat and not even American for that matter. > There -- that ought to fuel your engines some! That is not really the > point. I just wanted to offer you and other people on this list some > opportunities to access different sources of information regarding recent > world events. You don't have to take up the offer. We' re all free to get > the amount of knowledge that we each need to live. Everybody is different > on that score. But there are a number of enduring questions about 9-11 > that are not answered by any big media outlet that I am aware of. Here are > just a couple: why was there a meeting between Bin Laden and a CIA agent in > Dubai in July 2001? The meeting was originally reported by a French > newspaper and later denied by the State Department. But what wasn't > reported in the US was that Le Figaro stood by their account after the US > official denial and said that the information came from French > intelligence. Given Bin Laden's past affiliation with the CIA, I think > this is a cloud that hangs over a possible CIA link to Al Qaeda. And then > there is the whole question of the slow response by the Air Force to defend > Washington on 9-11. Why did it take over an hour to scramble jets from > Andrews Air Force Base to intercept either Flight 93 or the plane that > crashed into the Pentagon -- especially after the WTC had been hit and it > was surmised that this was an attack? And why did these jets, once > scrambled, fly so slowly (less than 1/4 of their top speed) that they could > not intercept any of the hikacked aircraft? This whole question is far > more complex than I can do it justice -- it's best if members go to the > site I mentioned before with the Thompson timeline and check it for > themselves. Yes, there is a possibility that there was a system-wide > failure of NORAD and the Air Force to respond. But is that the only > explanation? I don't buy it, if only because so many things had to have > gone wrong for that outcome to occur. So I do think that the notion of a > "stand down" order given to the Air force on 9-11 has to at least > entertained more seriously. The problem is that there is no real > discussion of these questions anywhere in the media. > > Iraq is a belligerent state in the region and Hussain runs a dictatorial > police state. No news there. But they have very little capability to > actually strike against other countries. Former US weapons inspector Scott > Ritter has gone on record about this. And more importantly, there has been > zero evidence of any Al Qaeda links with Iraq. For my money, it's about > oil and creating a war atmosphere at home. The US has a long term plan for > region that involves taking over several countries in order to secure oil > supplies. They need some kind of pretext (weapons of mass destruction) in > order to do this in some politically acceptable way of course, because > statecraft and imperialism can no longer follow the old crude ways. But > it's all the same game, only with a more sophisticated audience. > > America your phone is ringing > it is destiny calling > > > cheers, > Chris > ---------- > > MICHAELS, MARTIN (AIT) <mm6365 > > 'gjlist' > > RE: [GJ] Another apology/Bush's war on Iraq > > Friday, October 18, 2002 8:21 PM > > > > Christopher, and others, > > > > > > > > Christopher Kevill [christopher.kevill] > > > Friday, October 18, 2002 6:29 PM > > > gjlist > > > Re: [GJ] Another apology/Bush's war on Iraq > > > > > > > > > > > > . Yet I > > > > cannot ignore history. And nearly 30 years ago, I fought > > > > for what seemed an ungrateful nation, along with thousands > > > > of other young men. But it wasn't ungrateful - it was confused - > > > > as we were - about WHY we were fighting. This time we know. > > > > > > Right, that is if you know that the present administration > > > wants to further its control of the supply of oil reserves in the > Persian > > > Gulf. Saddam is a sideshow clown created by the CIA who has turned > > > over a nasty new leaf. To figure out the other aspects of this crisis, > > ask > > > youself the questions: who elected Bush, who are his main backers? > > > Why is there so much support for Bush's war plan? I can't answer that > > > question, but I think it something to do with the innate human desire > to > > > trust others. This is however naive in the extreme, the way a Pisces > > > trusts an Aries and ends up holding the bag -- with all due apologies > to > > > both of those signs. > > > > > I agree that Saddam is a clown. The "first" Gulf War proved that - but, > > this > > in NO WAY negates the fact that he is dangerous. Neither does the fact > > that WE put him in power (at the time it SEEMED like a good idea) negate > > the fact that he needs to be removed. I am talking about simple common > > sense. You are talking about alleged greed. I HAVE met Mr. Bush, he is > > a decent man. He listens to his advisors. He does what he believes to > be > > the right thing - this in spite of the fact that it may be unpopular. By > > the way, > > are you a Democrat? I'll bet my shoes you are. But this has nothing to > do > > with that. Do you actually think there are no Democrat oil barons? Ever > > heard > > of Lyndon Johnson? THAT is the SOB responsible for nearly 55,000 dead > > Americans in Vietnam. Don't talk to me about oil interests. It ahs > nothing > > to > > do with this, though I'll agree there might - MIGHT - be some benefit in > > that > > area to US oil interests. > > > > > This Iraq war is an out and out money grab by the Bush junta, only the > > > constant repetition by the media machine gives it a chance of being > > > accepted by the populace. The whole "war on terror" reeks of > > > a scam, too huge to even contemplate. > > > > > You, sir, are full of shit. My suggestion to you is to go live in Iraq > if > > you think > > Saddam is such a benevolent soul. Perhaps you can help Saddam protect > his > > precious oil from Mr. Bush. > > > > > Fortunately there are a growing number of people who are > > > questioning the official version of events as they are spun by the > White > > > House and their courtiers in the mainstream media. The offical version > of > > > > > what happened on 9-11 itself has lingering inconsistencies which forces > > one, > > > me included, to wonder if there might be a larger plan behind all of > this > > suffering. > > > > > That's not what I am hearing hear. And as far as 9/11 is concerned, if > you > > are > > suggesting that the US government ALLOWED or assisted in that, I KNOW > you're > > > > full of shit! As far as "spin" is concerned, the Media creates whatever > > spin they > > think will sell the most newspapers in print, or toilet paper on TV and > > radio. I > > trust reporters only slightly more than I do most lawyers. > > > > > If you have had nagging doubts about what is going on in the > > > world lately, about why it is that the formerly beleaguered Bush now > rides > > > > > high in the polls and how he and its friends stand to gain the most > when > > > this grand shakeout occurs, then I invite you to check out these > > > websites that are still asking the tough questions and compiling the > real > > facts. > > > > > Mr. Bush has been among the most popular Presidents, including Bill > Clinton > > - > > Now THERE's a thief for you - a pure D bald-faced liar. > > > > > http://www.questionsquestions.net > > > > > > http://www.unansweredquestions.org > > > > > > > > > Check out the Paul Thompson timeline there -- it is an encyclopedic > > > overview of the origins of the present conflict with the Arab > > > world and provides important commentary of significant events leading > up > > to and > > > including 9-11 and its aftermath. > > > > > Much of this slag is taken out of context - I will demonstrate this later > > this weekend - > > right now, I have to go eat. > > > > > Sorry if this topic has been ruled off limits. I couldn't > > > help myself. FWIW, I don't wholly to all of the ideas in > those > > > > > sites, but I feel there is so little critical thinking going on in the > US > > > right now, people really need to get a look at more points of view and > > > mostly, more facts than CNN decides to feed you!!! > > > > > As far as I know it's not off-limits, but it would be better discussed > at: > > > > PolDebates > > Group email: PolDebates > > Post message: PolDebates > > Subscribe: PolDebates- > > Un: PolDebates > > List owner: PolDebates-owner > > > > > Chris > > > > > Oh - and MY apologies to anyone offended - sometimes ya just get > > your dander up... > > > > Best Regards, > > Martin Michaels > > ----------------------- > > Sr. Systems Analyst > > Nirvana Consulting > > gadgetcoder > > > > 'This work we do, > > It's not "rocket science"... > > It's much, MUCH harder.' > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > : gjlist- > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2002 Report Share Posted October 21, 2002 Chandra - and others - You are partially correct - but only partially - My passion for my beliefs IS deep, but there is no "dive" to it. The passions come from my deep swim in the waters of reality and experience. As for being "rude", I have never been rude to anyone on this list, with the possible exception of my phrasing in my last note to Christopher. Then again, I don't consider that phrasing as being rude, only perhaps too colorful. But no rudeness was intended. To Christopher (and anyone else this phrasing may have offended) I apologize - for the wording, nothing else. I respect the rights of others to have and share their opinions. At the same time, I reserve the right, as do you, to make my opinions heard, and to critique the opinions of others - particularly when they are so obviously belligerent, not to mention wrong. As you to you, Chandra, I don't know you. I don't know your background or where you live or your general political leanings, though I can guess. I, served, in the military - fought with friends, some of whom died for what seemed no good reason - it probably seems more-so now than then. But I would do the same again, if it were asked of me. Don't me wrong - I am not a war-monger. I did not enjoy the experience, except for the brotherhood of my fellow troops. If you have never served in any military service, there is no way to explain this feeling to you. And the fact that I served in the military does not give me, or any of the others who served some "unique" ability to see what is right. But it does give us a unique perspective and an appreciation for what it takes to be free, to be a world leader among nations. No, things here are not always perfect - things have at times gotten pretty rancid around 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. But, NONE of that takes away form the fact the Saddam Hussein is a dangerous person with more power than he deserves, and with motives demonstrably vile in nature. He needs to be removed form power by whatever means are necessary. This is not about oil. It IS about sadistic greed and power lust by a man who would kill thousands of his own countrymen, even his own son-in-law to ensure his staying in power. He defies the United Nations because he knows they will do nothing when he refuses to follow the rules (i.e. - inspections). Saddam is a bully. There is only one way to deal with a bully - that is to face him down. But, I actually rather doubt that it will come to a real war. He is posturing because he thinks the other Arab/Muslim nations (and perhaps even the UN) will not side with the US. He is mistaken. All the oil there is of no use if there isn't a customer. The US is by far the largest customer. WE have plenty of oil here. There are reserves. There is still oil in the Gulf of Mexico. There is oil in Alaska. I don't like the oil companies any more than I like the tobacco industry. But they are not the impetus behind the removal of Saddam Hussein. Oh! and by the way, Clinton won against Bush Sr. ONLY because Ross Perot hates George Bush Sr. so much. Perot confused the voters over the Republican ticket. He never intended to win the election, only to keep George Bush Sr. from being elected. The fact is, Chandra, I've been awake and DRINKING coffee since long before you. And I know the difference between real Arabica coffee and Robusto instant. If you don't know what that means, you should be more careful with your analogies. Best regards, Martin Chandra Devi [wraye (AT) netidea (DOT) com]Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 9:18 PMgjlistSubject: RE: [GJ] Another apology/Bush's war on Iraq Dear Martin ~Your passion for politics is a deep dive into very shallow waters. I can tell you believe very strongly in what you're saying since you are so rude when you express yourself. Sad indeed - since you have swallowed ... hook .... line and sinker ... the propaganda fed to the public through CNN and other major networks. It's insane to believe that War like measures can lead to peace. This war is about Oil and power and greed and nothing more substantial than the personal agenda of the Oil families of the United States and the other countries politicians who struggle to control their countries resources. George W. Bush picked up exactly where his father had left off when he lost the Presidential election to Clinton.Wake up and smell the coffee.Chandra ~ At 05:21 PM 10/18/02, you wrote: Christopher, and others,> > Christopher Kevill [christopher.kevill (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca]> Friday, October 18, 2002 6:29 PM> gjlist> Re: [GJ] Another apology/Bush's war on Iraq> > > > . Yet I > > cannot ignore history. And nearly 30 years ago, I fought > > for what seemed an ungrateful nation, along with thousands > > of other young men. But it wasn't ungrateful - it was confused - > > as we were - about WHY we were fighting. This time we know. > > Right, that is if you know that the present administration > wants to further its control of the supply of oil reserves in the Persian > Gulf. Saddam is a sideshow clown created by the CIA who has turned > over a nasty new leaf. To figure out the other aspects of this crisis,ask > youself the questions: who elected Bush, who are his main backers? > Why is there so much support for Bush's war plan? I can't answer that > question, but I think it something to do with the innate human desire to > trust others. This is however naive in the extreme, the way a Pisces > trusts an Aries and ends up holding the bag -- with all due apologies to > both of those signs. > I agree that Saddam is a clown. The "first" Gulf War proved that - but,this in NO WAY negates the fact that he is dangerous. Neither does the factthat WE put him in power (at the time it SEEMED like a good idea) negate the fact that he needs to be removed. I am talking about simple commonsense. You are talking about alleged greed. I HAVE met Mr. Bush, he isa decent man. He listens to his advisors. He does what he believes to bethe right thing - this in spite of the fact that it may be unpopular. Bythe way,are you a Democrat? I'll bet my shoes you are. But this has nothing to dowith that. Do you actually think there are no Democrat oil barons? Everheardof Lyndon Johnson? THAT is the SOB responsible for nearly 55,000 dead Americans in Vietnam. Don't talk to me about oil interests. It ahs nothingto do with this, though I'll agree there might - MIGHT - be some benefit inthat area to US oil interests.> This Iraq war is an out and out money grab by the Bush junta, only the> constant repetition by the media machine gives it a chance of being> accepted by the populace. The whole "war on terror" reeks of > a scam, too huge to even contemplate. > You, sir, are full of shit. My suggestion to you is to go live in Iraq ifyou think Saddam is such a benevolent soul. Perhaps you can help Saddam protect hisprecious oil from Mr. Bush.> Fortunately there are a growing number of people who are > questioning the official version of events as they are spun by the White > House and their courtiers in the mainstream media. The offical version of> what happened on 9-11 itself has lingering inconsistencies which forcesone, > me included, to wonder if there might be a larger plan behind all of thissuffering. > That's not what I am hearing hear. And as far as 9/11 is concerned, if youare suggesting that the US government ALLOWED or assisted in that, I KNOW you'refull of shit! As far as "spin" is concerned, the Media creates whateverspin they think will sell the most newspapers in print, or toilet paper on TV andradio. I trust reporters only slightly more than I do most lawyers.> If you have had nagging doubts about what is going on in the > world lately, about why it is that the formerly beleaguered Bush now rides> high in the polls and how he and its friends stand to gain the most when > this grand shakeout occurs, then I invite you to check out these > websites that are still asking the tough questions and compiling the realfacts. > Mr. Bush has been among the most popular Presidents, including Bill Clinton- Now THERE's a thief for you - a pure D bald-faced liar.> http://www.questionsquestions.net> > http://www.unansweredquestions.org> > > Check out the Paul Thompson timeline there -- it is an encyclopedic> overview of the origins of the present conflict with the Arab > world and provides important commentary of significant events leading upto and> including 9-11 and its aftermath.> Much of this slag is taken out of context - I will demonstrate this laterthis weekend -right now, I have to go eat.> Sorry if this topic has been ruled off limits. I couldn't > help myself. FWIW, I don't wholly to all of the ideas in those> sites, but I feel there is so little critical thinking going on in the US > right now, people really need to get a look at more points of view and > mostly, more facts than CNN decides to feed you!!!> As far as I know it's not off-limits, but it would be better discussed at: PolDebates Group email: PolDebates Post message: PolDebates Subscribe: PolDebates- Un: PolDebates List owner: PolDebates-owner > Chris> Oh - and MY apologies to anyone offended - sometimes ya just get your dander up...Best Regards,Martin Michaels-----------------------Sr. Systems AnalystNirvana Consultinggadgetcoder 'This work we do, It's not "rocket science"... It's much, MUCH harder.' Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat: gjlist-http://www.goravani.com Your use of is subject to ---Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 6/20/02 Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo , send an email to: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2002 Report Share Posted October 21, 2002 Dear Martin ~ I don't really expect to get through to you, but I will make a few points and drop the subject. Your ' us vs.them' or ' we know better than you ' mentality is the problem and the big illusion. You wrote: But it does give us a unique perspective and an appreciation for what it takes to be free, to be a world leader among nations. The rest of us living on Earth have a problem with the United States of America assuming the position of "a world leader among nations," (here again is that us vs. them mentality) and we see the United States as being willing to use any means and measures to keep assuming this most unfortunate goal and title. No, things here are not always perfect - things have at times gotten pretty rancid around 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. But, NONE of that takes away form the fact the Saddam Hussein is a dangerous person with more power than he deserves, and with motives demonstrably vile in nature. He needs to be removed form power by whatever means are necessary. Again ... this is an American mind-set which you cannot see in yourself. As a patriotic American veteran and citizen you are saying that you Americans have the right to make 'em and break 'em - since it was the United States who supplied arms to Iraq in the first place and now you've changed your little minds and want to take them away using your bigger vault of arms for mass destruction. You think your nation is the only nation in the world who is 'sane' enough to create and accumulate the ammunition to blow the world to smithereens at least one hundred times over! This is so insane .. I can't believe I'm writing about it! This is not about oil. It IS about sadistic greed and power lust by a man who would kill thousands of his own countrymen, even his own son-in-law to ensure his staying in power. He defies the United Nations because he knows they will do nothing when he refuses to follow the rules (i.e. - inspections). Saddam is a bully. There is only one way to deal with a bully - that is to face him down. But, I actually rather doubt that it will come to a real war. He is posturing because he thinks the other Arab/Muslim nations (and perhaps even the UN) will not side with the US. He is mistaken. Please substitute George W. Bush's name in the above paragraph and you will see the same can be said and is said about him. Like attracts like. All the oil there is of no use if there isn't a customer. The US is by far the largest customer. WE have plenty of oil here. There are reserves. There is still oil in the Gulf of Mexico. There is oil in Alaska. I don't like the oil companies any more than I like the tobacco industry. But they are not the impetus behind the removal of Saddam Hussein. Don't forget Canada's oil. The United States has already made deals with the Premier of Alberta, Ralph Klein, who is more than happy to sell Canadian resources for the green back. The fact is, Chandra, I've been awake and DRINKING coffee since long before you. And I know the difference between real Arabica coffee and Robusto instant. If you don't know what that means, you should be more careful with your analogies. Martin .. in the above paragraph, I see again the ... I know better than you know analogy. Ugh! Chandra ~ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 6/20/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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