Scriptural authority

[Guest guest]

People may think I am some kind of fundamentalist because I put my faith in

scriptural authority, but anyone who actually knows me can understand that's

anything but the case. Just to set the record straight, I am a disciple of

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada since 1972, and a strict vegetarian

since before that, but have had nothing to do with ISKCON since Prabhupada's

disappearance in 1977.

 

We find in life that things work when we accept authority. We accept

authority whenever we look up a number in the phone book, access an Internet

search engine, or book a flight through a travel agent. This is practical:

if we had to verify each fact directly, life would be unbearably cumbersome.

So we accept authorities in which we repose our trust. We trust authorities

who have shown us that they know what they're talking about, or who we

believe are motivated not to cheat us.

 

We also see in life that when a group of people accept authority, such as in

a corporation or government organization, they get things accomplished.

Otherwise there is a tendency to simply bicker without any practical

direction. (Of course that never happens on this list, since Das Goravani

Prabhu is firmly in control...)

 

Everyone on this list accepts the authority of the Vedic Hora-sastras,

because we have seen by astrological application that they work. For example

nobody understands why the dasha system works, but even a neophyte Vedic

astrologer can make impressively accurate predictions with it. So we accept

it on the authority of the scriptures.

 

Things like vegetarianism are a little tougher to accept because it is

harder to confirm subtle things like the karmic effects of the modes of

material nature. Although we are so conditioned by empiricism, we cannot

empirically verify things beyond our sense perception. But if Vedic

astrology works, and other aspects of Vedic knowledge like Ayurveda, Raga

(music) and Hatha-yoga work, then we should be open to the deeper aspects of

Vedic knowledge on the basis of this trust.

 

Of course, the problem is that so many self-interested people have created

misinterpretations of the Vedic scriptures at variance with each other and

with the Vedas themselves. So there is a lot of confusion over what the

Vedic scriptures really mean. That's why Krsna says,

 

yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata

abhyutthanam adharmasya tadatmanam srjamy aham

paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam

dharma-samsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge

 

"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O

descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I

descend Myself. In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the

miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent

Myself millennium after millennium." [bg. 4.7-8]

 

Lord Krsna descended just before the beginning of Kali-yuga and spoke

Bhagavad-gita to restate the Vedic conclusions in terms that any layman of

that time could understand. Now 5,000 years later, Bhagavad-gita is a lot

more esoteric but it is still the best summation of the total conclusion of

the Vedic scriptures.

 

It is very difficult to understand the Vedas and Upanisads, let alone

Vedanta. But the Puranas and the Mahabharata, including the Gita, are much

more approachable. The Bhagavad-gita contains everything we need to know to

attain enlightenment. The problem is, again, that so many conflicting

editions and egregious misinterpretations of the Gita exist. Therefore we

have to find a teacher of the Gita in the disciplic lineage from Krsna

Himself, who has not deviated from the original intent of the Gita.

 

The intent of the Gita is revealed at its conclusion where Krsna declares:

 

sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah

 

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall

deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." [18.66]

 

If we find a teacher who has realized this intent, who is totally

surrendered to Krsna, then we shall be able to understand the real message

of the Gita from him. Anyone else is sure to introduce their own personal

selfish motivation into their interpretation. But if can find a pure devotee

of Krsna, then we can trust his authority in the matter of the meaning of

the Gita.

 

By accepting such pure authority without selfish motivation, we can

understand the truth from the highest authority, Sri Krsna. If we attempt to

understand spiritual truth by our own defective intelligence or from the

opinions of another fallible human being, we will be cheated. We will wind

up accepting so many bogus ideas and impure practices as religion, and this

will keep us from the highest knowledge.

 

Now from my personal point of view, it is hard to understand that maybe some

people do not want the highest knowledge. But I know from astrology and from

life experience that this is so. Nevertheless I cannot remain satisfied with

anything less, and ultimately, we all need this enlightenment if we are to

solve the real problems of life: old age, disease, death and rebirth. So I

always recommend to people to accept the authority of Krsna, sastra and guru

and make a real solution to life's difficulty by getting out of samsara once

and for all.

 

Vegetarianism is just a small part of this focus on attaining

self-realization, but it is an important step on the way to liberation. It

is a sign that this is not just an armchair pursuit, but we are willing to

make real changes in our life and accept some austerities to get higher

knowledge. I hope this communicates something of a deeper understanding why

I am so firm on the principle of following the sastra as far as possible in

all matters.

 

Best to all,

Dasanudas

, Harmony School of Conscious Art (Miami)

International Conscious Art Gallery: www.consciousart.org/

Vedic Astrologer . Writer . Musician www.harinam-arts.org/

Free Vedic Horoscope offer: www.consciousart.org/offer/

Listen to some of my tunes! www.mp3.com/DavidBruceHughes/

[Guest guest]

Bhaktisiddhartha Dasanudas wrote on March 13, 2001:

 

> It is very difficult to understand the Vedas and Upanisads, let alone

> Vedanta. But the Puranas and the Mahabharata, including the Gita, are much

> more approachable. The Bhagavad-gita contains everything we need to know

to

> attain enlightenment. The problem is, again, that so many conflicting

> editions and egregious misinterpretations of the Gita exist. Therefore we

> have to find a teacher of the Gita in the disciplic lineage from Krsna

> Himself, who has not deviated from the original intent of the Gita.

 

>If we find a teacher who has realized this intent, who is totally

> surrendered to Krsna, then we shall be able to understand the real message

> of the Gita from him. Anyone else is sure to introduce their own personal

> selfish motivation into their interpretation. But if can find a pure

devotee

> of Krsna, then we can trust his authority in the matter of the meaning of

> the Gita.

 

>By accepting such pure authority without selfish motivation, we can

> understand the truth from the highest authority, Sri Krsna. If we attempt

to

> understand spiritual truth by our own defective intelligence or from the

> opinions of another fallible human being, we will be cheated. We will wind

> up accepting so many bogus ideas and impure practices as religion, and

this

> will keep us from the highest knowledge.

 

I fully agree.

 

 

>So I always recommend to people to accept the authority of Krsna, sastra

and guru<

 

But where do you find a BONA FIDE GURU that will fulfill such a role, and

have the desired qualities?

 

 

Thank you for your comments.

Namaste.

Dany

 

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

| >So I always recommend to people to accept the authority of Krsna, sastra

| and guru<

|

| But where do you find a BONA FIDE GURU that will fulfill such a role, and

| have the desired qualities?

|

|

| Thank you for your comments.

| Namaste.

| Dany

|

 

Dany,

 

We have to use our best intelligence and discrimination to search for a

qualified guru, but in the end, we have to depend on the kind mercy of God.

We ourselves are unenlightened, therefore if we try to choose a guru on our

own strength we will invariably be cheated. We have to educate ourselves in

the qualities of pure devotion, and become qualified by attaining some

degree of purity ourselves. Becoming vegetarian and chanting the Holy Names

of God will purify our body and intelligence. But still, without having

perfection in self-realization ourselves, how do we know what to look for?

Mere numbers of followers proves nothing. There are many phonies who would

like to cheat us.

 

So ultimately we have to pray very sincerely and let the Lord arrange to

send us a qualified guru. It is good not to be in a hurry, but observe the

prospective guru over a long period to verify his qualifications. For

example, my guru Srila Prabhupada waited over 13 years before taking

initiation from his guru Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. And we have seen in

ISKCON that some neophytes pretending to be guru managed to maintain the

pretense for some time, but ultimately they fell down or were otherwise

exposed as cheaters. So be very careful.

 

The pure devotee of God is very rare. Krsna says in the Gita, "Out of many

thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have

achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth." [7.3] So even among

advanced devotees, it is very rare to find a completely pure devotee who is

presenting the teachings and purpose of the Lord in unadulterated form.

Maybe once in a century or so, God sends His pure servant to represent Him.

Golokera prema-dhana, harinama sankirtana. The yuga-dharma is mercy coming

down from above, it is not an ascending movement. The guru must be a

resident of the spiritual world come down to earth to pick us up. An

advanced student who is climbing up out of the material muck can of course

help us, but this is second-class guru.

 

Of course I can recommend my guru Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's books for

further transcendental education and enlightenment. Actually if you have the

vision, you can approach him through his books. His Bhagavad-gita As It Is

is especially helpful, since it puts not only the Gita but the entire Vedic

literature in perspective. You can read it at www.asitis.com. The ultimate

encyclopedia of Vedic lore is Srila Prabhupada's Srimad-Bhagavatam. You can

read various excerpts from it at

http://www.webcom.com/~ara/col/books/CLAS/bhag/welcome.html and

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/contents.html.

 

Of course the best thing is to read the entire work with purports. However,

the next best alternative is to read the life story of Lord Krsna at

http://www.krsnabook.com/. For a nice capsule biography of Srila Prabhupada

go to http://www.stephen-knapp.com/a_c_bhaktivedanta_swami_prabhupada.htm.

Actually it is very difficult to describe or understand Srila Prabhupada's

qualifications. His appearance in this world was literally an answer to the

prayers of many great devotees. He fulfilled prophecies made hundreds of

years earlier by Lord Chaitanya, the incarnation of Lord Krsna Himself. So

Srila Prabhupada is no ordinary guru, nor even a very great guru: he is

considered a saktyavesa-avatar, or empowered incarnation of the Lord.

 

Srila Prabhupada is certainly still accessible through his books and

recordings if one has sufficient motivation and purity to receive his

influence. Other than him I cannot really recommend anyone to approach as

guru. In this vein I will conclude with a couplet by our predecessor guru

Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur, who wrote, "He speaks ill who says that Vaisnavas

die, when thou art living yet in sound. Vaisnavas die to live, and living,

spread the Holy Name around."

 

All the best,

Dasanudas

[Guest guest]

danielle-rose wrote:

>

>

> >If we find a teacher who has realized this intent, who is totally

> > surrendered to Krsna, then we shall be able to understand the real message

> > of the Gita from him. Anyone else is sure to introduce their own personal

> > selfish motivation into their interpretation. But if can find a pure

> devotee

> > of Krsna, then we can trust his authority in the matter of the meaning of

> > the Gita.

 

 

>> But where do you find a BONA FIDE GURU that will fulfill such a role, and

>> have the desired qualities?

>>

 

There may be many for all I know, but how does a novice know that he has got the

right one till he himself has attained a certain level of knowledge? He goes at

first to one who is well-known as a guru, popular and with a large following.

 

If I remember the story right, Ramanuja went to one such guru. One day the guru

interpreted the description of the Lord - "pundarikaksha - as "having eyes like

the red buttocks of a female monkey"! Ramanuja was shocked, said it meant "eyes

like a lotus", and went away to find a better guru.

 

A faux pas like that may reveal that the guru is not good at interpretation -

but his devotion to God might have still been unquestionable!

 

All philosophical and religious systems, if they survive, are closed systems

based on axioms and logical derivation from the axioms. These have themselves to

be defined, for the same word has different interpretations in the various

systems.

 

If one accepts the axioms, the system as a whole is tight, all further

interpretations are made to suit this system. The disciple has to decide whether

he can accept the axioms or not. This he can and should do only "intellectually"

not "emotionally", which again calls for some basic knowledge and intelligence.

 

Again, how does one know that he has picked up the right system unless he can

compare it with other systems?

 

In the ancient days a guru taught his disciples ALL the known systems, discussed

them comparatively and perhaps expanded more on the one he himself preferred.

But later on the teaching became one-sided, the attempt was not to teach and

leave the disciple to decide for himself, but to convince him that the guru´s

preference was the best. It became conversion to a particular religion or sect.

 

A disciple who accepts this one-sided teaching thinks he had the best guru and

is satisfied. If it doesn´t appeal to him he goes to another and may be

disappointed there too! This can happen all through his life!

 

All the religions of India claim to be derived from the 4 vedas. All have

preserved the vedic rites, but none of them mention any of the principal Gods

worshipped today, are limited to the 33 Gods of the vedas, with Indra at the

head. The Supreme Being is mostly referred to as brahman, which is not Brahma.

Beyond this one finds no real connection.

The worship of Krishna was obviously not included, for the vedas were written

long before he incarnated. But also Siva or Vishnu as the member of the Trinity

is not mentioned. Some later ritual mantras do mention Maheswara - has some

connection (castanets) with siva, but whether this was originally meant is

uncertain. The Siva cult might have given him the castanets to equate him with

Maheswara.

 

Try reading the Rigveda. Radhakrishnan´s translation and commentary runs to 4

volumes. A straightforward translation would fill one volume only, but since

every word can have various meanings, the discussion of which suits best fills

the other three! Many words are simply not understood. Few are completely

understood. The rest are a matter of vague interpretation and preference. Some

show high intellectual content, some are beautiful, some humorous - like the Ode

to the Frogs - some vulgar and trite, songs sung at drinking orgies!

 

If one takes the upanishads they do teach the various philosophical systems, but

each one is different. Each rishi had developed his own theory. Could all have

been right? If not, we must accept that rishis could err. Since we revere all

the rishis, how do we know which was better?

Unless we decide on this, how can we say which religious direction is the best?

 

Again, there is the language problem, as happened wit Ramanuja. Sanskrit is a

terrible language when it comes to synonyms. Panini begins his book saying

"Every word can be to mean any other word" - a dreadful situation, which is

confirmed by looking into the dictionary. The number of entirely different

things meant by one word is amazing, sometimes they even have exactly opposite

meanings!!!

 

For myself there was only one way: the way of philosophers like Schopenhauer,

Gandhi etc. To read about all the systems and religions of the world and put

together what IMHO fitted best. Accepted the Supreme Being as guru and begged

Him to lead me. No matter how great a rishi was, he was only human, had

frailties. God is God! Mahaasura can mean Great Deva or Great Demon!

 

I once met a great lady who could read in the Akasha Chronicle. The moment she

saw me she laughed and said, "So you are fed up with all dogmas and traditions?

Don´t worry, you have found the right path for yourself ... and perhaps others

too." I asked her how she knew this and why she said this. "Because I can see

that you have been a high priest in all the religions of the world in your

past lives and were never satisfied with them.." Her words certainly explained

my attitude in this life!

 

namaste

Mani

[Guest guest]

gjlist, subra@t... wrote:

> danielle-rose wrote:

>

>

> >> But where do you find a BONA FIDE GURU that will fulfill such a

role, and

> >> have the desired qualities?

> >>

>

> There may be many for all I know, but how does a novice know that he

has got the

> right one till he himself has attained a certain level of knowledge?

>....namaste

Mani

 

Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!!

 

Namaste dear sisters and brothers!!!

 

is it not said in the scriptures, dear ones, that WHEN THE STUDENT IS

READY, THE GURU APPEARS?

 

We do not have to go around the world looking, looking, looking,

everywhere for just the right GURU, testing this one, discarding that

one...we have not to do this....we have only to dissolve in love and

longing to the Divine Beloved in whichever form we conceive of

Him/Her, tearfully crying out to that Beloved to reveal Herself, just

as Sri Mata Amritanandaji, Paramahansa Yoganandaji Bhagavan Sri

Ramakrsna Paramahamsadeva and many, many, many, many, many, many,

other Great Ones have proclaimed throughout the ages...

 

When our hearts are purified through these tears of longing and Love,

the The Divine Lord (Krsna) or the Divine Mother (Amma), will not be

able to stay away any longer, and will just have to desert that cosmic

chess game, or the pots and pans in the cosmic kitchen, and run

hastily to the devotee child's side, wiping away the tears, and

comforting that Child....Usually this is done by FIRST, sending to

that Child a true Guru...the SAT GURU....

 

If we are lovingly demanding bread of our Divine Mother, will She give

us stones??????? If we are longing for Her Darshan, How can She stay

away???? If we want to play with Krsna in His eternal Leelas, how can

He refuse this innocent demand from his child???? He will HAVE to send

help to that child so that the child might come home to Him.....

so if we do not have a Sat Guru, we must actually inquire into our own

selves, as to whether we REALLY WANT one!!!or really want the Divine!!

 

the Divine Who is the Indweller in every heart, knows what we REALLY

want....and if we REALLY want His Darshan, do you think He will not

send us a Guru to Bring us to that place where the Lord is sitting in

bliss, in our own Hearts?????

 

Do not worry my darlings, about the qualities of the Gurus, so much as

the qualities of the student!!!! When the Student is ripe for a REAL

Guru, the Guru will appear even in his own place....he will not have

to wander the world looking for this Guru, the Guru will even come to

a place near the child, such that the child can be with Her or Him....

If we place our utter reliance upon Lord Krsna or the Divine Mother,

do you not think that they will take care of us...Even Christ has

promised the same....Take no thought for the morrow....ask for the

kingdom of heaven and all things shall be added unto you....

 

Amma says if you take one small step towards the Divine Beloved, that

Beloved will take a thousand steps towards you.....

 

it depends on what we ask for!

if we ask for flashy popular gurus, that's what we get....more ego

aggrandisement....if we really want God and God alone....then we get

something else...we get such a Guru as God has sent to us....which

will fulfill the desires of our hearts....if our hearts long only for

the Darshan of the Divine Lord, then such a Guru will bring us

lovingly into the Divine Presence....such that we become aware of the

ParamGuru dwelling within our own hearts, Who is the REAL GURU of

GURUS.....that One known as SATCHIDANANDA.....

 

Sri Ramakrsna refused always the title of Guru, insisting instead that

the real Guru is Satchidananda......Sri Ramakrsna is a perfect example

of just what i was talking of...as is Paramahansa Yoganandaji...Both

of them called and called and called out to the Divine in The Beloved

Forms of Mother Kali, and Lord Krsna....and both were sent EVERYTHING

they needed in their life's work, including the right Gurus at the

right time.....if we really can model ourselves upon these great

souls, do you not think that the Divine will also take care of us in

exactly the same way??????

 

How do i know this???from my own personal experience!!!....i have

followed to a small degree in the footsteps of those two Great Ones,

and thought to just TRY their advice...Just call and call and call,

never giving up.....and my Ammachi appeared very soon in my

life...only a couple of years of tears and longing....and There SHE

was...appearing in a place near where i live (near by cosmic

measurements...only 600 miles....) i hadn't even been looking for a

Guru, believing in Sri Ramakrsna's ideal of Satchidananda being

Guru....but i HAD been tearfully calling to my Divine Mother to reveal

Herself....and to the eternal bliss of my heart, She let me know that

She had heard my childlike calls, and had Answered them in the form of

my Ammachi...my Beloved Mother, Sri Mata Amritanandamayi Devi...

 

even then i resisted the Guru idea....until Amma had had enough of

this and inspired this child to ask Her if She is my Guru...to which

She broke out into Loving Laughter, and thru Her chuckles, managed to

get out "YES YES YES YES", reaching out to Her darling son to give him

Her Darshan in the now famous Amma Hug......

 

so i can definitely feel for those who are longing for a true

teacher...but my dear ones, have faith, and just call out longingly

and lovingly to your Divine Beloved, and you will not be refused....

if a child asks his father for a hug will he be turned away?

if a little one comes crying to his busy Mother, will She not put down

Her pots and pick that little one, lovingly wiping away his tears, and

giving him a sweet kiss on the cheek....

 

In the Divine Mother's Love,

and in Her Service,

this littlest child

of Hers,

bows again and again

to his

beloved sisters and brothers,

who are verily

the Embodiments

of Divine Love

 

as ever,

Your own Self,

 

visvanathan

 

Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!!

[Guest guest]

kasi_visvanath wrote:

> gjlist, subra@t... wrote:

> > danielle-rose wrote:

> >

> >

> > >> But where do you find a BONA FIDE GURU that will fulfill such a

> role, and

> > >> have the desired qualities?

> > >>

> >

> > There may be many for all I know, but how does a novice know that he

> has got the

> > right one till he himself has attained a certain level of knowledge?

> >....namaste

> Mani

>

> Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!!

 

Dear KV,

 

You have dealt with the matter beautifully! I gave the "intellectual" answer for

a "mundane" question. You have given the spiritual answer. I see no

contradiction in our answers, but together they mean more than what each of us

said! If we read or hear the answers given by Amma or Meera, we find that they

give answers that suit us. Fine.

 

You are right in saying the heart must search for the guru. But it is the brain

that receives the answer and passes it on to the heart. But it also censors the

answer! You have chosen the advaitic teaching because you were pre-disposed to

do this. You have read the scriptures of other religions, seen truth in all of

them, realized that they are partial truths. So you accept the advaitic

attitude, which is very broad-minded and encompasses all the religions - but is

NOT emphatic in any direction!

 

But what about the dvatiic devotees? They insist on clarity and emphasis. This

restricts, but is a legitimate wish! A dvaitist cannot tolerate advaita, but an

advaitist is compelled by its nature to tolerate dvaita! A funny state, where

one wants to reject, the other wants to accept. We can only leave it at that,

not fight about it! Let Christ decide whether he was a catholic or a protestant!

He would probably say he was a Jew!

 

love

Mani

[Guest guest]

-

> Dear KV,

>

> You have dealt with the matter beautifully! I gave the

"intellectual" answer for

> a "mundane" question. You have given the spiritual answer. I see no

> contradiction in our answers, but together they mean more than what

each of us

> said!

>

> You are right in saying the heart must search for the guru. But it

is the brain

> that receives the answer and passes it on to the heart.

 

> You have chosen the advaitic teaching because you were

pre-disposed to

> do this. You have read the scriptures of other religions, seen truth

in all of

> them, realized that they are partial truths. So you accept the

advaitic

> attitude.......

> love

> Mani

 

Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!!

 

Namaste Mani and all my sisters and brothers.....

 

Wonderful!!! Mani you are truly a gem, just as your shortened (i

assume it's a shortened form of Subramaniyam...or something

similar)name Mani implies!!!!

 

i was a curious mixture of blissful laughter and tears as i read your

loving response...however i do have a couple points of debate here

with you...

 

first of all, i suggest that the brain is possibly best left out

of this department except to collect and dispose of "evidence"...even

then it is faulty...i suggest that it is the heart which is calling

out to the Divine Beloved, and it is the heart which hears the answer

from deep within it....THEN the mind creeps in to muck everything

up.....

in the Guru department i suggest that it is best to leave the

"choosing" to your heart...that brain will betray you every

time....there are several quite simple questions you can ask yourself

in the presence of a "potential" Guru...such as how does this person

affect me when in Her presence....am i blissed out by divine love...or

am i impressed with the power....how do the disciples behave, and what

kind of feelings do we get from being in their presence over a period

of time....is everything out in the open...is the Guru asking for

money, or unquestioning loyalty....are there submachine guns

around....actually all these questions are available at Cult

information places, even on the internet....they're simple questions

and the answers will give that monkey mind something to work with...if

you don't trust your deepest feelings that is....

i'd always go for the "trust your deepest feelings" line of

approach...

 

When you suggest that i have "chosen" the Advaita way of seeing, there

i feel you may have erred a little, as i feel, actually, that Advaita,

has chosen ME to reveal Itself to...just as the Self is Chosen by That

to Whom IT is revealed in all its splendour...

not that i make any claims in that department, being only a little

tiny toddler in this school....i only know to call Ma Ma Ma Ma Ma, and

i KNOW that She'll come running to my side, pick me up and put me on

Her vast lap for a little hug, and a kiss....because this is what She

has done for quite a long time now....every little bit of surrender

unto Her is rewarded with more deepening love for Her and my fellow

children, my darling brothers and sisters, who also are Her children,

and in fact are too, the Embodiments of Om, the Embodiments of Divine

Love...themselves...only we do not usually see this...and thus our

longing childlike calls to our Divine Mother, and thus the resulting

appearance of the Sat Guru in whichever form you Love Her....if you

love the Formless Guru...that is Who Shall be Your Own....if you Love

to have a Guru in Form, She will take that form which is most beloved

to you and appear in that form....if you must have Lord Krsna for your

Guru, then She will even appear as Lord Krsna....and lead you by the

hand to KrsnaLoka...

 

in that way, dear friend i do not feel that i CHOSE advaita so much as

a perennial, many lifetimes' understanding, or approach, or so, guided

me into this direction...Actually it was all Guru's Grace in the

end...as Rumi once was complaining to God, that God hadn't even

listened to him and never answered him for so long....even though he

had prayed and cried and wept and rolled on the ground in

agonies....and do you know what the answer was: "Who do you think

inspired you to do all that praying and crying and weeping and calling

out My Name....."

 

Whom the Self chooses, to him the Self reveals It Self.

 

i can totally relate to the dvaitic view, just as you can Mani, but

you and i see that both Nirguna and Saguna belong together, that you

can't have the milk without the whiteness, you can't have the fire

without it's light, and shape, and heat....the formless appears as

form to us in Leela....just for "fun"....it's up to us to see that and

to enjoy our stay in this kindergarten despite WHATEVER TESTS we are

given, and for Bhaktas the tests can be very severe in the chronic

disease realms, and all sorts of other testing realms too....we love

the Divine but find that the world has renounced us...we do not have

to put on saffron robes...the world just renounces us....the more

absorbed in Sadhana we are, the more we are loving our Beloved Deity,

the more the world renounces us....for we are NOT following in the

so-called "dharma" of the world...we do not fit in...so the world

renounces us....we are free to pursue our affair with the Divine

Beloved.....until liberation, when suddenly the whole world will

"rediscover" us, and try to make "use" of us in its world "dharma"

trip again....

 

i really don't have any response to your question as to what we do

with the dvaitics....it's hard to know, when confronted with such

attitudes, what line to take, because you can understand and

sympathise with their view, but you see another way....which feels

"right" to you....and we may appear to be "conciliatory" when we agree

with their views too much. Thus advaitics might be seen to be

"wishy-washy" new ager types, because we can accept so many different

pathways to the Divine Beloved as being equally valid for the people

that are attracted to them....of course when we are tied to the stake

and the fire begins to eat us up for our "liberal" views...then we are

REALLY in a quandary.....but luckily we don't live in Afghanistan at

the moment...or stonings might be the end of us...some Dvaitics can be

so desirous of "order" that they simply must exterminate all different

points of view....that is truly lamentable, and probably the reason

why Hinduism is still the third most popular religion in the world,

instead of being first....

 

We say "One Truth, Many Paths"....

 

the islamics and christians say..."our way or the highway".....

 

this fundamentalist dualism is indeed hard to deal with, increasingly

in the world as the Islamic countries radicalise backwards to the

mediaeval ages....

 

In Mother's Love,

and in Her Service,

 

as ever,

Your Own Self,

 

visvanathan

 

Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!